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3 – Wyrd Sisters

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Episode 3 of Unseen Academicals, examining the second book in the Witches Series, Wyrd Sisters (1988), and using it to explore theories of humour, the power of words, Shakespeare, the history of Macbeth, evolving depictions of witches, broomsticks, Black Aliss, vegetarian ghosts, and more!

The sound on this on is pretty rough. As Alice and I have alluded to on the previous episodes, recording this one was a bit of an ordeal and I essentially had to stitch it together, Igor style, from three seperate back-up recoridngs that all got weirdly compressed. We're pretty down on this one too, so heads up about that.

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts  

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com 

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod


 

It's dear as world, it's deals world analysis. Yeah, so I'm Josh and I'm Alice and where the unseen academicals. And this episode we're going to be talking about nineteen eighty eight weird sisters, the second book in the witches series and the six discworld book overall, in which growing weather, wax and our fellow whiches, Nanny Agan, Magret Galic, mcbeth harder than anyone has ever macbeth before or since, in an attempt to save the discworld's witches from Shakespearean prejudices and restore the rightful order to the Kingdom of long craw. We're going to be using the book to explore theories of humor, a pair of words, the history of Macbeth, witches, Broomstick's Black Ellis, vegetarian guards and more. But first, Alice, this worked really well last time, so until Joe but hant sends me a cease and desist, I'm going to begin again by asking you the name. Two things you liked about book and one thing you did not, and you said the kingdom name again. Come on, uncle, I've been calling it lane craft. This is not something I was going to bring up later is it's actually the name of a French witch hunter general. I had a question. Okay, yeah, so I don't know if that. That's how the audio books and stuff that I've listened to pronounce it, Sir, all my all my pronunciations are informed by audio books. But yeah, what were the two things you liked and one thing you did not about the book? I think it's going to be the opposite, but I'll want to play the roles early. You can do two things. You just like one thing. You why if you want. Let's start with the positive. All right. I really like the characterize, I feel, the witches and the relationships between them. That was fun. I was the only fun part for me. Maybe also from part maybe the fool and finding out the fools guild was like a miserable place to grow up. That was vaguely humorous. Some of the jokes about a theater were funny. I appreciate at the joke about all the world of stage and all of us merely plays, except those who sell popcorn, because I work in a cinema and sell popcorn and feel like I'm on the edge of humanity most of the time. All right, things I didn't like the book. Okay, it dragged. I felt like the plot was fairly dull and boring. The links to Macbeth were that interesting. It felt like Macbeth for people who hadn't read Macbeth or didn't knowning best. I think actually they are almost more references to hamlet other than sort of like the overall plot of Macbeth, like the references in it and a lot of the ideas are very hamletty. That annoyed me. Like pick one. I did like ill. I would go the other way. I'd like to go branch out of it more than rather than just I think. I'm like yeah, well, God, yeah, I don't know, do something better. I guess the fun bit, if there was a fun bit, was trying to pick out all the little references. So the bit at the end where they say, Oh, actually, we do like trolls. After I'm like yeah, I menged a vetuschool, but yeah, otherwise, what a drag. Really positive this week? Well, as far as that the two things I like. I like the broomstick part where she flies around the Kingdom of Lunk Rock. Yeah, and put it all to sleep. Little bit disappointed that that's just sort of thrown away in the middle of the book. It's not the big ending set piece, but I do understand it's functioned. I just thought that actual scene and that device was pretty interesting, pretty cool, and we'll talk more about the broomsticks later. I also I like the ghost stuff and there's not too much of it, but some of the ideas. But I like the engagement with ghosts. I don't know if we really get like he does vampires and werewolves and everything in other books. I don't know if we get any other ghosts really. I mean maybe we do it. I'm not thinking about anything that. I sort of wanted him to take that a bit further because I thought they were more interesting ideas there in the ghost stuff than the witch stuff and that the mcbeth stuff. As for what I did like, like you, pretty much pretty much everything else, if I have to be specific, or if I'm forced to pick the Juke in the fall, which I guess the two things, but just any scenes with them interacting really graded on me. I didn't like those characters. So yeah, it seems like you like it less than I did and I knew going into this that this is not one of my favorite disc word books. In fact, epected to like it because I tend to enjoy things that are spoofs on it. That's like I really like upstart crow, the show, which is all spoofs on Shakespeare. It just felt dull. Yes, so, looking over my my list that I've made, this is my one, two, three, four, five, six, seventh, least favorite discuard novel. So judge just above the last content and and unseen academicals, if firmly in the B seat here before the I think it's like from being objective to good book. I just don't like it very much. How are you feeling about it? You like this more or less than unseen academicals? Of the three we've done so far, less than, I'm saying, academicals. Okay, if I'm at least my least favorite book surfer, all right, we'll keep an eye on that. Because, because I feel like there was more to think about and greater array of characters doing interesting, different things, interacting with the world and with each other in different and interesting ways. Like some of the stuff with the whiches was interesting, all the jokes, you know, like well, what powers do we give him? And but yeah, yeah, but we we are rather in the ears and credit in our response to this, because this is one of the most well regarded, well received acclaim books in the discworld series. To putty interestive, the Bibliography for the stuff I've I've read for this is about one and a...

...half times as much as for equal rights, which we both liked a lot this and and which is a broad that we're going to do next. They're the big ones that there's been a lot of critical focus about. So, in comparison to the neglected equal rights, weird sisters is one of the most celebrated and written about Discuad novels. I would even had an article about it in our monish literature General Colloquy. That was in the issue between the one I added in the one you edited, so that I cool analyze thess of work of metafiction, which was my Prima Rassu from the University of Western Australia. Will talk more about that article a bit later. But yeah, there's been a lot run about weird sisters and a lot of it is trash. I'm sure we're getting too specifics, but trash, trash, how just literally the quality of stuff. There's a lot of just these weird. Yeah, these these undergraduate feces and just high school essays and stuff that have been mixed in on Google somehow and it's almost like like there's all this stuff up there and I'm thinking our someone's come along and is teaching this online call. It's about weird sisters. All the stuff's out there, but they're all from different years and different parts of the world and different university. So I don't but they're all the same. They all say the exact same things. They all start out with definitions of parody and what parody is and then just say and conclude by saying weird sisters is a parody of Macbeth. And even in some of the you know, Peer Review published academia stuff, a lot of it just goes down the same path and treads the same ground over and over again. So I actually found a really good thesis that we'll talk about later, but there was like a week or two of me just reading trash articles about weird sisters and getting really bugged down in it and remember getting the messages from in that Bulg just going this now thing. But yes, the appears to be critically adored. I couldn't find any contemporary review reviews from when it came out, which is surprisingly hard to find. I'm having trouble finding any four, which is aboard as well. But in the two thousand and one pocket, a central Terry Pratchett, Andrew and Butler, who's the leader and pioneer of Pratchett Studies, who we've discussed before. He goes through all the books and gives them ratings out of five and, weird sisters, gets his first five out of five rating and he calls it utterly splendid. This man is mis led. Well again, this seems to be the consensus among people who aren't us. For context, the only other five out of five books ratings that he gives more which is abroad small God's Jingo, but only on rereading, when you gave it a three out of five, one st which, strangely, is a an experience I can relate to because, coming back to that book, I thought it was a lot better the second time. But we'll talk about that in about three years, I think. And up a druggle em so the last of the which is novels, before we get to the tiffany ating ones, which I don't. I know. That's one of Maddie's favorites. She really likes it, but I don't really remember it that well. I have much reverence for it, but maybe it'll be good on revision. It's also the first, I think it's the first, of practice novels to be adapted into another media. There's the weird sisters animated series, which Maddie and I watched half of and then turned off in just just complete bottom and it's not very good. The piecing is weird, the animations are rough and the voice acting, especially from our Magrat and granny weather acts, who are you two fair main characters, is pretty rough. So not recommended. So why don't we like this book? It's what I want to start with, because for me, you already mentioned your favorite joke, but my favorite joke is the very first line of the book, which is the wind howled, lightning stabbed at the Earth a radically like an inefficient assassin. Thunder roll back and forth across the dark, rain lashed hills. The night was as black as the inside of a cat. I just felt like cheap shell. For me, I like that night being as black as the inside of a cat. I thought that was nice, but then that's my favorite joke. It's the opening line of the book. So it's all downhill from there. Yep. And then they say when the way through me again next Tuesday, and I was rolling my eyes violently. I don't mind that as just a lar joke, but God that this is the granny weatherwax saying there's men's magic and women's magic, of weird sisters. This is every article, even ones about not weird sisters, open with this quartet, like look at the genius, he says next Tuesday. You like, Oh my God, I get it. Yeah, it's not genius, it's just funny. Like Oh, you twisted a bit, makes it funny. Good job. I do think that's funny, but I wish you would go deeper. But yeah, I didn't find this book funny, and that that's not funny doesn't mean it's not good. But I wanted to know, like, what about the Macbeth references? Is Not doing it for me. And now I know us and maybe it's just that, as you said, someone who is not only knows mcbeth by association or whatever, I might getting more out of this, whereas you and I, being so familiar with the text, having taught it and written about it and everything. Is it just not doing it for us because we have a higher bar or something I have? I know you have a theory. I have some theories to add on your theory. You should start right because I'm going to do I did a bit of research. I wasn't contented with just I don't like this book. I want to know why. So I've read a lot of books at articles about theories of humor and theories of parody, trying to get to the bottom of it. My I don't know if I have, but I thought this an interesting stuff to explore here. Or maybe it's just going to be me talking very dryly for like twenty minutes about why jokes are funny, explaining jokes and whatnot. But there's been a lot of articles written about Pratchett Hum I wish makes sense, like he's...

...the best selling comedic writer of all times, so makes sense, not all of which are particularly insightful. Again, you sort of get this thing where they all conclude with and therefore weird sisters as a parody of Macbeth, and somehow that is the last sent it's of the article, not the first. So, for example, there's a two thousand and three article written humor and humor theory in which Dominic cheatnam uses Pratchett's work alongside pity wordhouse, who I know nothing about but keeps coming up a lot. So I we should you know anything about wordhouse? Yeah, which essentially boils down to the fairly obvious idea that written can, conventions can be manipulated and subverted. Along with her content. He's going, Hey, look the writing funny as well. And again it's yes, convers is quite a good article by Gideon harborcorn called the rhetoric of humor and the poetics of fantasy in discworld and disciplines, which is a really good first step, but not particularly relevant to the discussion of with sisters. But I wanted to point that out if anyone he's interested in one of these articles about humor and Terry Pratchett's is actually a lot of the postgraduate thec he's not the one I the undergraduate ones I was complaining about a second ago. But some masters and PhD thesis are a little more insightful and a bit more useful. So I found a two thousand and sixteen masters thesis from Finland by Vera Pauline and called intertextuality as a source of humor in Terry Pratchett's novels, which basics it's analysis on Buckton. Am I saying that right? Yeah, people dont. was like an actually good buddy, know some buck team who's our big bill duns From and guy who's he's going to show up again when we get to which is abroad. so He seems like he's a big deal. Right. Yeah, he is a big kill. That seems silly. Like me, qualified PhD, I've graduated now being like this bucked in guy who's name definitely isn't pronounced like that. But I've sort of known him like in the peripherals and now, as I'm doing this research, he keeps coming up and keeps coming up. I'm like, did you invent all of it? You just feel the builduns from and thing. He's a he's big in the literary theory world. Yeah, so he proposed that no word or utterance is independent and that everything emerges from a complex history of previous ways. This is the invention of the idea of intertextuality. Right, yeah, she's he's a. He linked to the deconstructionists. I think he's too early. He's too early. Yeah, that is one of the big destruct deconstructionist guy. All right, plead ignorance. Yes, this is later processed into the theory of intertextuality by their French Belgian feminist literary critic, Julia Christava, in the late one thousand nine hundred and sixty. So she's taking his ideas and lending them into the the deconstructionist postmon this stuff so point and bases her analysis on Neil are ours one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine paper intertextuality and humor, where Norik argues that, unlike one off intertextual jokes and references, which test the audience for common knowledge and reactions, parody rather aligns them with the performing in assault against some third party. So you're meant to be on the side of the author making fun of the thing that they're parody. So I guess the humor comes there from, like it's not just a clever, witty joke. That's sort of this prolonged attack. Like if you're on board with Pratchett deconstructing Macbeth, then you're going to get something out of it, where it seems like you and I aren't really buying into that premise as much. Maybe yeah, and we'll come back to this, but part of a big thing in Macbeth is he's mate as who talk about more. He's making fun of superstition and I feel like Pratchett doesn't get under that enough. He doesn't unpack that enough for me. So he doesn't really get to the heart of what mcbeth is about or does and he just sort of takes all of the plot aspects and the verily basic themes. It doesn't dig down enough. So I just found it frustrating, a boring. Yeah, all the quotes he uses are the big famous ones. Right, there's a real deep cuts the aid the example, as it pleases you, as you like, and like come on more. But that's actually my favorite jokes. I did like the seriously alternate title. I like that La so no proposes that the way humor works in one off jokes is that we rapidly transfer our mental attention from an initial frame of reference to a new, conflicting one and back, and that this dual processing results in a simultaneous double association which defies everyday rationality and opens the doors to the subconscious and laughter that's all fancy way of saying that you end up with two conflicting ideas and somehow they resolved and make sense. HMM. Yeah, so this is what is known as the incongruity theory and this dates back to aristotle and can shopeen ow. So this theory has been around for a while and in the intro to the pocket essentials guide, Butler points out that much of the humor of Pratchett depends on having two ideas in mind at once, often with two words being confused or another in this cons yeah, but what an important element that Norix says is that the punch line, in order to break this tension, the punch line has to be a surprise. You have to not see it coming. So confusion and then sudden realization, whereas intertextual jokes usually play on something you haven't noticed before, the sort you gradually come to realize. So you may might not create this big laughter, but you sort of going Oh, that's clever, which again, if we're saying to ask these Beth references are really obvious. It's not triggering that realization or that that some punch of tension. Like, I think to you and me there is no attension. Right. Yeah, we see coming a mile away. We wake up a book about which is Macbeth, and we could almost like dot point what things are going to be in it. MMM. So parody is therefore more readily or not, a group charity,...

...more readily with what William Fry Jr, in his one thousand nine hundred and sixty three books sweet madness, categorizes as imaginative play. And this theory seems to be that the suddenness of punch lines has an effect on forcing the receiver into an internal redefining of reality, wherein what seems to be reality can be presented in terms of what seems to be unreality, communicating the message that this isn't real and confronting the the receiver, where a paradox of a negative part defining the whole by suggesting that the real is unreal and unreal is real, which I'm I've quoted that big, long, ridiculous quote to say this is fair as foul and foul is fair. What's going on, man as Nice Right, I told her I had a high school tutoring student once where we're doing macbeth, and I told her just whatever question is the answer is fair as fowl and fowl as fair, and she would not write it. Time I astro a question of like what does this mean? Should say everything but fair as foul and foul is fair, and I feel like that that's kind of the key to mcbeth. It's everything's flipped. Yeah, there's also Thomas Schultz as chapter in where discourse meets discworld in the two thousand and eighteen collection Terry Pratchett's narrative worlds, which uses projects work to explain our theory of post one humor based on by Association of intertextual references. It's interesting, but it kind of gets a bit silly saying that humor derives on from attempting to solve the mystery of whether a reference exists or not in both worlds, trying to make sense of possible worlds and possible for futures all at once. which ponder Stevens would explain it. It's just quantum. But yeah, it sort of goes off the rails a bit with that one. Yeah, so my conclusion after reading all this is that if the pleasure of humor is meant to come from surprise or the gradual realization or of solving a puzzle or realizing something that. Yeah, I'm not feeling challenged by this book. And so we're too stop. We did get on. Is that where we're at? Yeah, I mean, I guess some of this maybe comes off sounding a bit arrogant, but I'm just like that trigger is not getting pulled because I think along with it being very obvious references, some of them are really slowly integrated. Yeah, see, I really don't like when they go to watch the actual plays themselves and granny weather axes getting up in the audience going that's not true, that's not how it happened, and it's like there's no twist there and she gets really upset about like the stage not being real and puts her foot through a tree. And Yeah, just granny weather back saying that, which is aren't bad actually, like isn't a joke? No, no, it's my major one that jumped out of me that I that I don't like is at the start and that scene where they say are something comes and Magaret asked, can you tell by the pricking of your thumbs? And it says like in the author voice, that Margaret had learned a lot about witchcraft from books, HMM, which means she must have read Macbeth to get that. That's yeah, you could interpret that from it, or that's the implication. or She'd read some which you book, where you could tell when something was coming because your thumbs tingled. I mean, maybe it's just the the prominence of Macbeth in culture and criticism, but having read like tens and tens of books and articles, I can't find another source for the pre of the thumbs. Okay, but I mean, either way, the illusion that we're meant to laugh at is the reference to Macbeth. Make that. Yeah, this implies that Magrat isn't a real which because she's pretending to be the witches from Macbeth. But Big Meth doesn't exist and that wouldn't be an issue if later on in the book shaking, it's the Shakespeare character who writes mcbeth. HMM. So this is that many worlds theory of what's true and stuff that stoles from running, but I always find it really, really sloppy. It's also a similarcra she's quite an Beth, for mcbeth doesn't exist. Yet then she's quoting, she's a copying something that doesn't exist. This is good. We're going to dive deep into similar acres, for which is abroad. So look forward to that next episode. Planting seeds right now, because you do have the well will well, who receives inspiration from his head from other times, like he's getting their voices in his head from different worlds. Again, prejus obsessed with this idea. In a two thousand and thirteen article remaking Shakespeare discworld, Jennifer Clement argues that, since most of the voices that wells hearing our low cultural references, so Marx brothers, Laurel and hardy things like that, rather than than the high literard that Shakespeare's been elevated to, the PRUTCHETT is recontextualizing Shakespeare's part of a pop culture tradition rather than a high one in which he stands alone, which is interesting like that. That's cool, yeah, but also, but now I'm asking, like, doesn't my grat hear these voices as well? If she's doing the pricking of her thumbs, I don't like it. What I will say is it frustrates me, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that because I like well building to not contradict itself. And so insistency. Yet yeah, yeah, let's call that them. And in in equal rights running where the works, when when she's asked what or not destiny is important, to just kind of like shrugs, and then here they kind of I don't know, they're still playing with the idea of definitely whether or not its bomb. But the whole book kinges on it and he was making fun of it and equal rights and now he's using it and putting more weight on it and has just frustrating me. Yeah, this is something that again, I'm going to say this a lot because at these books go so a handinhand. But we're going to talk about this more in next episode, which is abroad, because there's some I have some problems with the ideological inconsistencies between that and equal rights as well. So this is when. These are the first books where Pratchett sort of finding these characters. But yeah, there are these big swings and these big claims that he sort of bouncing...

...back and forward with. Another problem that I had with the book, and you sort of said the oposite. You said you wanted him to focus on macbeth rather than, you know, dipping into hamlet and everything. This idea of if humor and and play is meant to derive from contrasting two things and playing with them and stuff like. To me, this this book is too much mcbeth, like it's not two things at once, it's just Macbeth. If it had done more to discuss the idea of mcbeth and actually used it in a medium for way for me and then like also brought in all of those other jokes from Shakespeare, I feel like it would have been more or like used a few together, even just the hamlet in the mcbeth and the jokes around it, but done it in a more interesting way rather than just rehashing the old obvious jokes, like it was all the obvious hits. Basically. Yeah, there's one of the things I like is go. So I definitely wanted him to go harder that the hamlet stuff. Yeah, Camilla, AL and holes, Ahousand and eighteen article, the ludic parody of Terry Pratchett. She defends pressure against Buckton's challenge that modern parody is simply narrow and unproductive ridicule, which I think we're kind of saying, and she argues that instead of being limited to a single work, the many heter a generous elements of the discworld come together to shape it as a sovereign universe which has an internal coherence, so its independent of any single other work of art, while mirroring many. I think this is true of the other books, but I don't think this really applies to which is abroad, which is you've already said, because something I'm wondering is like, is this the most limited in scope of all the discworld books? I would say from what I have re read, yes, because he felt like I enjoyed it when I was younger, because I like her justin count of Macbeth and was like, Hahi, I get the big death jokes. But now it's just it's very flat. But more that, it's also it's just it's confined to the Kingdom of luncrothers, like three buildings around where we're at the witch's house. Where at the castle, or were at the the plays? Yeah, like even equal rights, which has a much more limited character and thematic focus. They're going to sample event walk, they go to different realms. There's yeah, this whole thing. Where is this seems very static, very limited. I'm wondering if that was and I don't know where the well practure was pretty smart, you know, holds, bathing, comedy or plays, had to be no set in one location within a twenty four hour period, all of those rules. Maybe that was him having a go to that. But even then he does a stick to all of them. So what's the point of doing one or two? So the twenty four hour things interesting, but I think this takes place over yeah, it's so well, just wait. So maybe he's, I don't know, using a you and then complexifying others or having a joke about others, because I guess now that I actually think about it, yes, but fast fallowing it to fifteen years. That's funny. That bad's buddy, because it tickles us. Yeah, that's I thought that was a clever twist on the sleeping beauty thing rather than just being like it is sleeping beauty. And we're not alone in this assessment. As much as this book is praised, in the two thousand and seven collection the post one and Fairytale, Kevin Paul Smith Criticizes Weird Sisters for being the most Palem setic of the discord novels, which that's a fancy word for saying it's just Macbeth and nothing else. One of the editors of guilty of literature collection, Farrell Medicine as, also criticized weird sisters for having warn Macbeth's perhaps a bit too obviously on its story sleeve, and Weirdley Butler kind of agree, saying that he feels that some of the early discuad novels have too many overt references to the real world, which risks destroying the illusion of the the internal consistency of disco self. But then he gives weird sisters the five out of five things, so not sure what's going on there. So but also points out in their pocket essentials introduction that perhaps because of the necessity for central characters not to know quite what is going on, prussure is often used a child, childlike or teenage protagonist, since the INNIS and abroad is able to fall in such a way that we feel sympathy for their plant whilst laughing at and with them at the same time. Their innocence, rather than ignorance, seems to operate a some kind of talisman and disarms any opponent. So this is also leading me to wonder that will does weird sisters also suffer for having its main characters be people who are mature and in control. Like there's no real tension. You never think greny weather wax is going to fail. HMM, yeah, this is true. You haven't read ahead, but in which is abroad, there is that that stakes, like gratty weatheraxes is pitted against her double, literally, so that there is this idea of how she met a match, whereas here it's like, well, you know, she's going to outsmart this dumb Duke. Yeah, you know how it's going to end. Yeah, however, so it's John Flute points out in his coming of age article weird sisters again takes the form of a Bill Duncerman, he claims for the Prince Bom John, for whom the kingdom literally waits itsough to grow up and reach out a lescent so that it can be realized. I thought that was an interesting insight. Any any thoughts on that name, because I was puzzling over it. Well, someone on the L S face, wookie, suggests that the name is possibly a reference to Jonathan Thomas, or John Tom, who's the protagonist of almendine foster's spell singer trilogy. So He's a Song Mage, which means he has the power of rock and roll, which will get to sold music at some point. It's essentially rock and roll Narnia. There's not none, not as much music stuff as I'd like in there, but there are turtle wizards. Yeah, I went and read this book out of interest because Total Wizards, rock and roll magic. I was like, I don't have to know what this is like. It's quite pretchadesque, like I can definitely see the connection. I'm surprised I couldn't really find any sort of link between Aladine foster and Pratchett...

...stuff. I don't know if you know a him. He's written a bunch of like the Star Wars and alien novels and hands. It's essentially stone a Nantia. Yeah, so maybe that that's just a reference to you got John, Tom Tom John, that that's the Best I've got take it. Yeah, though, of course that's what weird sisters is really about, is the power of words, as all of very pratchett's books are as we're learning. So you have the full saying that in the Guild of fools we learned that words can be more powerful even the magic. But words our magic, right that's what we learned from equal rights. So this is where that that's not ideologic, ideological inconsistency is coming into it. For me, big ideas aren't fitting together as neatly as I think they should. We're getting this emphasis and this is reflected in the title of the book, which is something again, a lot of the articles go on about. But I think I found a new twist on it because, so I mentioned before, I'd found a really good thesis about Weird Sisters, and that's by definitely Antonio laws, who explains in her one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine Masters Thesis Weird Sisters and Lad Women, that the very name of the weird sisters in Macbeth is an equivocal pun, that they are both wayward in the sense of capricious, self willed and nonconforming, and weird in the sense of in the older sense of the term, meaning they're involved with destiny. Interestingly, in the first folio edition of Macbeth it's consistently spelt weird ehy aard, except in certain udiances by a bank Mac Beth, where the weird sisters are called the wayward sisters, which is thought to represent their pronunciation of Shakespeare time. But there's also a pun going on there where they're leading him astray. And Yeah, that so you know, this is word point smart. I like it. Yes, she makes the smart the French. It's version less stuff. Exactly. According to the Oeed, weird is to find as a now not an adjective, which I thought was was interesting. But there is the weird which is the principal power or agency by which events are predetermined, its fate, its destiny. Yep, it's the magical power, it's enchantment. It also refers to the three fates. Yeah, we'll talk about later. Simway, in his nineteen eighty book nights black agents, witchcraft and magic in seventeen century English drama, Anthony Harris argues that the modern use of the word weird to mean strange or uncomting actually derives from Macbeth itself. Yep, I've seen that a lot too. HMM, that's something that's overlooked as that. According to the oed, Weird is actually an archaic form of the Word Word Right. So, as law ass points out, they're not just as the weird sist of the way with sisters. They are the word sisters that magic as layers onion Shrek. Moreover, lawless points out renaissance thought did not consider language to be a neutral, contingent medium for the transition of meaning, that they considered all things in the universe to have true names and some universal language, often assumed to be Hebrew, and that to give false names was as sin against nature. So, therefore, in committing a crime against nature by using magic, the which is, are also revolting against the idea of language itself. And and indeed, in Macbeth, the weird sisters tell Macbeth that what when he asked, what are you doing there? So we're doing a deed without a name. So lawless argues that the literary which character therefore became defined as a person capable of defying the natural order through language, pointing out that projects which is use their power to dispel I'm true, in favor of reality. Still talking about words and and similar curs. There's a mis quote that goes around it, and a lot of these academic articles, which is that with sisters is written using a hundred percent recycled words. Hum well, it's a good joke, except it's not in the book anywhere. Multiple additions of the Book I've been calling off. Quite apparently it's meant to be here at the start, like in the acknowledgements pages and things. But I've been calling up friends are have copies of the book, like it did your book of this in it. I've checked online versions. I can't find it in any of them. Yeah, this is side of them a lot of places, although no one gives an actual page reference for it, except for a Roussu from the Monash Journal, but then it wasn't in my page of the versions I have, and also a twenty fourteen book on English and German Grammar which cites the good reads quote page for with sisters. Wow. So yeah, I don't think this quite exists. Laws follows. Diane pocoses claims that the modern archetype of the witch and popular culture has its origins in mcbeth. She says the the three major contributions to what we think about which is today I'm Acbeth, the Brothers Group of Fairy Tales and the wicked witch of the West from wizard alls. Now we're going to talk about those last two next episode in which is abroad. But she also acknowledges that there are previous influential depictions, of which is in the sense of a female magician or sort or sorceress, that appear in the works off Thomas Malory and Edward Spencer. My boy, Sir Alis, could you maybe tell us a bit about the representation of which is in Spencer? I don't know. I have much to add from and on from last time, because actors often miss read. As I said, he includes good witches and bad witches and good wizards and bad wizards. He links it a lot to the superstition of Catholicism. I'm Duesser is the big Baddie and she pops up multiple times throughout. She's the one who has the cup of the filth of her fourn occasions and she blew, is the Red Cross night away...

...from faith, who's the character of UNA. But she represents faith by taking on Bona's by transing her first, transforming herself to look like uner. So the CIDER of mirroring and doppleganger might be come up again, and which is a road by this time all will. But she does that as a beautiful woman does so when she is sort of revealed like her true nature. She's evil and ugly and gross and probably gives it away because of the filth of the PHONICATIONS Cup thing. Who carries that around? But a bit of one of those you can just get a cut Um. We're up very achievable dream. But the point I want to drive home here is even though Spencer does add to the tradition of witchcraft in this way, like Jewess is evil, which we would recognize her as evil, which it is more complex than that, and he puts in good, which is as well, and he tries to, like Shakespeare, does unpack why we think of which is is evil and links them to the substition of Catholicism, because the problem with Catholicism was how do you differentiate that from magic? If it was something like transubstantiation, which is just the the idea that you can turn bread into the body of Christ and wine into the Bot of Christ, then how is that different to magic of turning a manage nute, you know? So that is what Spencer is doing also in the in the which one old Hutton acknowledges the CIRCI and Medea, who we were talking about last episode, as some of the early representations of which is that they he says they bear some resemblance to, which is although he points out that neither is human m nor explicitly evil. They're they're sort of these ambiguous temperatix demigod characters. They say they're not whiches because that in our sense, because they're not ugly hags doing evil deeds, they are beautiful women who have been wrong by men and UTO sexuality to fuck them up. Huton also refers to mcbeth's with sisters as most famous whitches in the whole of early modern literature. See it where we're going to look at some of the the history and influences of Macbeth, which you know people have done, but we're sort of focusing on the portrayal of witches. So Shakespeare's primary source when Writing Macbeth was apparently Raphael Hun shed's revised one thousand five hundred and eighty seven chronicles of Scotland. However, according to Kenneth d far has quite good one thousand nine hundred and ninety four article the historiographical evolution of the Macbeth narrative. The earliest and most valuable Scottish text that tells them Beth is the eleventh century Irish Monk Marianas Curtis's Chronicon, which claims, in accordance with Shakespeare, that Duncan, the king of Scotland, was killed by his Earl Macbeth. But not all historical accounts support Duncan's murder by Macbeth, although it is supported by the fourteen century Scottish poet Andrew Winton, who, in his original chronicle of Scotland, portrays Macbeth as Duncan's sister son who's acclaimed to the throne comes from his wife, which I thought was interesting, given the twist with the full at the end of were sisters. So maybe prechet is going a little bit beyond the Shakespeare text there. Maybe, and also interestingly, in winterms mcbeth, Macbeth is the son of the devil, which is the most amazing discovery anyone's ever made. Blows Alice has research wide open. Except she already knew it, and I felt really bad about telling you that. I considered lying. If you just didn't for a while see the message of like I'd open the message but not seeing that there was a new one, and so it wasn't flashing out with like new message. So I'm sorry. I did. I did play left me on read for like a day and I had to come calling back on that Nice. Is that not awesome? Is that not the bad as Shit you've ever heard? Yeah, but I already heard it. So again I tried to put it nicely, but went and also has mcbeth meet the three fates, not explicitly, which is rather the fates themselves in a dream. And I'm not going to read this out, but if you got the little screen shout of taken there. Yes, do you want me to try and read it? Okay, one else is going to read another. The first he heard say Ganon by low louder, the fin of Kombachti. I think that's meant to be. And then, Oh, I don't know how to do that. One to the to the Toke here, sister said again, like tough it tough here. Oh of Mariyonda, I see the thing. That one's easy. The threat said Theyonder, I see the king. All they heard he is in his dreaming. Now any after that? That that is dreaming about Diem Yng in his youth. Hide they thinking them is the same was made. So if it will still study there, because the point of this is not the words, it's how they spelt. Because less all this and immediately wanted to throw it in Google translate. I was like, wait, this is English. Yeah, yeah, sorry, I keep forgetting. You deal in like eighteen century onwards. Well, I mean I'm aware that words are older weird, but this was this is intense right. This is a block of no word is the same shape, presser middling from yea. So the point that this, though, is that words change so much over a thousand years, which I thought was an interesting point to make, given the idea of the power of words and they're like they are the truth, as the true names of things. Well, the true name of thousand years ago is very different to the true now.

Yeah, so that that's sort of the the Scottish origin of the mcbeth Myth but the philologist Nora K Chad because trace the star of Macbeth all the way back to norse mythology, arguing that the feature that seems to most conclusively point to a norse rather than Celtic origin for the mcbeth story is the three weird sisters themselves and the fact that they're in the older texts. It's emphasized that they're wearing unfamiliar clothing, HMM, which usually isn't commented on in Irish Smith but in nor Smith, is characteristic of supernatural women, and she connects this to the norns, all the the three fates, which we're going to talk more about, the the try, the triple godss and and all of that when we get to masquerade. So she traces this to the SI of Norna Gasta, or the guest of the norns, in which the hero Nona Gasta is given a prophecy at birth by three supernatural women, the third being unhappy at not being consulted by the other two before they went to do this place is a curse on not Augusta Macbeth himself actually also appears in the play as MAG Jew Thar mg bjot hr els, pins and scrabber. Yeah, this is Icelandic and accounts of the battles of skidemia, which I'm sure nanny OGG could have a lot of fun with. That world and the early thirteen century sagas of ORKNEYAGA and Olife trigger the song. You have just one scrabble. I thought that was interesting. Because of this you've got the the three witches or the three norms they give to positive prophecies, and then the third is a twist, which happens in Macbeth as well, that they're all sort of ambiguous. But you also have the three gifts that the witches give to Tom Joe. In weird sisters we are you sort of have nanny Oggan and mcgrat giving him these outward gifts, and then the twisters that granny weather wax just to he's going to know himself and over thyself, young Tom John, which again we will talk about more in which is abroad. So Shakespeare was also possibly influenced by the depiction of Donald's murder of King Duff in the Scottish historian Hector Bos has scatorum history, again something nanny OGG could do wonders with, and boss Tex shares many similarities with Shakespeare's play, especially Donald's being motivated to murder by his wife. But it's James B South points out in his chapter on Weird Sisters in philosophy and Terry Pratchett, lady Macbeth's bloody hands in weird sisters are transferred to the Duke who actually committed the murder, which tells us something about how Pratchett views human responsibility right. No one made Duke Helmet Kill Varance. It wasn't the witches through prophecy. It wasn't his wife, even though she is like power hungry and things. It's not this destiny thing, despite the title. It's like he wanted to have a kingdom, he killed a guy, now he has one. In terms of destiny, really, what it's about is whether or not the witches, the ones that brought young Tom John to the throne, or the foods of the throne changed it. It's not about what make methods about, which is who killed? Who Killed Duncan? Why, as in, you know, not who physically killed Duncan, but who created Duncan's death and what this, what the fallout from that was, which I think is another reason it lost me. I found the Duchess to be an uninteresting representation of lady week, but she doesn't really do much. He just sits there and says bitchy thing. I liked the at the end. Her come uppance is the clearing of all the animals, who are essentially terror apart. I I like that just as a more sort of violent image. But yeah, not a whole lot of depths to her. No, I wondering why Pratchett did that. Was He trying to take it away from gender and make it more about, yeah, as you say, responsibility, or was it just not interested in Lenmick Beth or? I do think it's an interesting point that. Yes, he does in in the the gender reversal. Thing that he's doing with these books is he is taking that responsibility away from the wife, even though she's a bad person. It's always the duke that did the murder. Yeah, he has the bloody hands. courtifies that in the text. Yeah, and what Pratchett's very obviously saying through this book is that it's not so much the winners that right history, but riders and historians, everyone who comes after, rather than the duke himself. It's he'll who's writing the history. Yeah, I agree, but I think it's the writers in the historians of the winning side, like to having just done book spot, book by the Fairy Queen, as Spencer, is taking apart a lot of very recently developed propaganda, English propaganda about the Spanish Armada, about Mary Queen of Scott's, about the war with King Philip of Spain, and he's really digging into this idea of yeah, we've won and we've written history, but at what cost? And then he manipulates it all and he writes the history again, but also the undermines it and shows what actually has happened to the to the careful reader. So the the three women also appear in in versus account where and that and that's where they the prophecy comes in the where they proclaimed that Macbeth will be king the bank or bank or will not, but he will give birth to a long series of Scottish power far claims that boss weird sisters are strangely dressed, but says this doesn't make them supernatural, and I disagree with that. I think it's pretty well coded into the bows and the winter and narratives that these are supernatural figures. These are just fancy a dressed women right winter and, however, explicitly describes...

...them as the the word sisters, which the sixteen century Scottish historian John Ballanden later applied to boss text because of their clothing. So we're getting the clothing as the signify here. Yeah, and in boasters telling, the weird sisters are also described as being extraordinarily beautiful and fairy like being steadfastly admired by the nobles, which points towards the the glamor that will become a big part of Lords and ladies. There is a culdron there, which is I pictured around, a culdron which is something that laws claims that before macbeth the culdron was simply a peasant cooking vessel, and she's trying to connect that to the specific betrayals of witchcraft being connected with female domesticity. But there is a culdron in the boast telling yeah and again winking back to the Legion and decline of magic. Caldron's big deal. Yes, so are all these ideas are present in all these different texts and as Shakespeare does, and and as Pratchett's playing with hull, bringing all these pop culture ideas together and codifying them so when they're longer referencing these older ideas, that we stop at Shakespeare for the most part in popular culture, that's the historical background. This brings us up to Shakespeare's mabeth itself. As the chapter on the witches of Lanka in the folklore of discworld, co written by Pratchett and Jacqueline Simpson, points out, where we've got this sort of ambiguous portrayal of these these three supernatural women in the norms and all these classical texts where Shakespeare is very clear as to what the wits this is are, because you have the stage direction like into three witches, right, but it's also clear that they are the weird sisters. Like you say, it's three witches. But Shakespeare then sets about immediately complicating that. He's praying on a superstition which I think we're about to get into it a big way. Yeah, I guess it's less framing, which is as the fates as fame, frame the fates as witches. They're no longer this sort of neutral, removed power. There they're now there's all the connotations that come with witchcraft, especially king to other macbet's been written through. Shakespeare gets the name the weird sisters from Holland shed, who wrote that the common opinion was that these three women were either the weird sisters, that is, the goddesses of destiny, or else some nymphs or fairies imbued with knowledge of prophecy by their necromantical science. So his account of the weird sisters is very ambiguous, right he's there. They could be fairies, that could be nymphs, that could be necromancers, they could be in it and it. Shakespeare comes in and goes no, they are witches. Macbeth is largely written to both flatter and satirized King James. The first it was under his rule that witchcraft was made a capital offense. And because he's trying to make fun of even though he's sucking up to James, he's also trying to make fun of James and all of society and goes, all right, let's make him witches then, and let's like follow this lineup for all the way through. Did they actually make anything happen or not? Like reassess your own superstition, guys. King James is interesting because he wrote demonology. who was rinning it from one thousand five, hundred and ninety seven, and I think it's important to emphasize the fact that King James was absolutely that shit crazy. He was insane. Yeah, so the demonology, it's a dialog between up Philip Mathis, which is the learner and epistem on the Noah and and he his argument in the demonology is that the existence of witchcraft is proved by its reference in the Bible. Right. So you got things like the Paras Musicians and the witch of eddoor and Simon Maggas. He's like the Bible says that it's true, that's that's his axiom. So if there are which is in the Bible, therefore there are witches are go. And then he goes on to define two sorts of magic, Nigi or Necromancy, which is high magic that we talked about in the equal rights episode, and then their sorcery or witchcraft, which is low magic. So this is where when we're asking, where does that divide come from? We were talking about in literature last time. Historically, I mean, this is going to be the big moment for that divide. Right, I'd already exist, but this is the king laying it down. Yeah, we can see it. We can see it as a turning point. And and he argues that low magic, witchcraft, magic is borne out of godlessness and is motivated by revenge and greed, whereas the the first is is a knowing blasphemy that's motivated by a curiosity. Right, this is the fausting idea of pushing the limits and interestingly, he argues that that's even worse, because which is well, they don't know any better and then they're blinded by passions and and poverty, whereas majors and necromances they knowingly blaspheme against God, which is the worst thing you can possibly do. So as much as right. Yeah, yeah, as much as he's famous for, you know, the witch hunts, he's actually condemning practitioners of high magic more so than law ones, although he does say that witches and sorcerer as a slave to Satan, while majors and necromances are masters of Devil's right. So you have again fast as much as Marlow's play. There's the twist, there's the idea that they are something demons to do their bidding, whereas witches are servants of Satan. Yeah, because the whole premises you sleep with Satan and you become his his butt buddy. Well, yeah, that's sort of one of those gods where you know self fulfilling prophecy. He also explains the gender differential in which is by saying that there's twenty women given to the craft where there is one man, and that the reason for that is easy, because women a foil of them men and therefore easier to be entrapped by the gross snares of the devil. And and again this is proved by the serpent seduction of even the Bible. So it's the faults, all the fault. So the reason why James...

...is so obsessed with witches and witchcraft is that he'd been subject to several supposed assassination attempts that allegedly involved witchcraft, the most famous being an alleged attempt to sink his ship on his way back from Norway in five hundred ninety, for which a group of witches and their male leader, John Fian, were child tortured and executed, kicking off what became known as the North Beric witch trials. See, I fear openly claimed to have deals with the devil during his trial and execution, and witchcraft satanic associations were also reinforced by King James's Dogmatic Xilatry, whereby he emphasized the alleged link between King and God, so that any crime committed against the king was therefore the equivalent of a crime committed against God himself, and that any practice or endorsement of witchcraft is thereby considered treason by default. The sort of trapped him in a logically power of words here. Despite these lofty accusations, as law as points out, which is were mainly accused of crimes against the accepted female sphere of action and responsibility. They were accused of things like killing infants and domestic animals or making it impossible to make bread or Chune. But are so yeah, not high treason and so much as just household grievances, as percose Argis, which is where thereby are constructed as Aunti housewives, or Aunti mothers, which is the name of my fifth favorite normal Jane Album. I just throw this through their door. Annoya. Just want people to know that's silence indicates me staring into the sciences getting cut out. I'm going to edit in you when you are like Hal Satan. Let's go on. I'm staring into the camera like I'm on the office. Well, was also argues that Shakespeare's weird sisters are more to the contemporary discourse about witchcraft than to any previous literary tradition. With the solidification of the concept of the fictional, which only occurring with Macbeth and other plays of the Jacobean witchcraft pode such as dom lilies, endimion and mother Bomby, although Louise, which is were largely comical and nonthreatening. Do you know either of these plays? Alis, not in any detail. I think I've heard of the first one. I don't know. Mother bombing. Yeah, I did a quick wikipedia on the mode. They're not worth going into, I don't think. Okay, yeah, essentially, dude, advent of King James and all this meant that, which has had to be taken more seriously, there were no longer these comical figures that you could you could put in plays, that they're now this very serious threat, or they're meant to be so. Harris therefore argues that Shakespeares, which is said the same function as other supernatural figures like ghosts and demons and oracles did in early dramatic traditions, providing supernatural intrusions to facilitate the plot, whereas pretty and previously they've been sort of yet figures of ridicule and comic parody and stuff. Laws there far argues that they represent an entirely new literary tradition of character. More of it in her one thousand nine hundred and ninety six article spirits ghosts and gods in Shakespeare. Christen Schmidt observes that in the earliest phase of his career Shakespeare seemed to have found it attempting on occasion to draw on his audiences obsession with witchcraft, giving as exact as an example the comedy of it where in Male characters frequently accused female ones have been witches. There's even an indication in the second henry the sixth play where the witch mother Jordan conjures the apparition a staff which is an Anagram of Satan. So how about that? That one? I didn't know, though. We are. Yeah, but the thesis Henry The six yeah, I don't think it's just he does it on occasion. I think all of mcbeth is him. Yeah, drawing on people's obsession with witchcraft and actually asking them to examine it. I'm superstition is interesting in mcbeth because you know the whole the horses eat each other thing. I do not know the whole the horses each other thing. All right, so they're talking about, you know, Ferris fowls, vows for are, the kingdom's turned on itself. All of this weird stuff is happening and one of the things is they say all the horses are eating each other and your twelve students, as we have both experienced, will just quote random stuff without really thinking about it. But it isn't the horses eat each other. If someone comes in and says, Oh, I heard what they actually say, it is said that they eat each other and that the whole part of the play of like the world's turn Topsy Turvy. kinges on that moment the horse is eating each other. Is the link to the next bit. But it's here say, and this is like central to what's going on in Macbeth, nothing is actually topsy turvy. They talk about world as having done that because the king is dead and someone who shouldn't be king takes the throne, but nothing actually swaps and this is Shakespeare going you're superstition is silly. That is like the bedrock of the play and in terms of him poking fun a supersition, I've added some other examples. One is there's a joke in the book about why is he got a hump on his back, and that's links, yeah, in weird sisters, and that links is to reach at the third where obviously he is malformed, but Shakespeare drums it up to make him more make him more evil. I think it's interesting that the fall is using gossip and jokes to spread the word about the witches. It's very similar to the idea of superstition, is to stuff that can be passed on and passed on when the witches are coming in and trying to tell them now which is but they're having that debate with the guards. They go over knows what a witch is and which is like Oh yeah, and then start using that against him. So I think Pratchett is aware more than perhaps I've given him credit for, of what Shakespeare is trying to do and is playing a little bit with this idea of superstition. I'm sort of gone the other way now. You' pointed this out because like protest, playing...

...with rumor and hearsay in wind sisters. But if you're telling me Shakespeare aready does that in Macbeth, well, that's another way that weird sisters just isn't that playful or original. I'd say he does it in a way that I didn't expect. It, though it was interesting, like the joke on why is he got a half on his back? I was like I get that. That's good, but maybe I'm just being a literature stove there. So what does Shakespeare actually say about which is a macbeth? Do you want to read the quote? I've been reading a lot, lots of quotes. Do you want to read? The six sisters, one the weird sisters, hand in hand, posters of the sea and land. Thus do go about about thrice to nine and thrice to mine and thrice again to make up nine piece the charms bounded up. Yes, so that's how they're introduced in Macbeth. Very nice reading, much batterly, you're now responsible for all Shakespeare quotations, so I just want to put that up, because we've got these number thing and we've got the three by three equals nine. Does that have anything to do with the male thing? No, because it was like three and four, which makes seven, which is a perfect number. MMM, this is like male square, male squared. I guess you could spit us that way. I mean we can interpret how we want. There's also make that remarks that they should be women, and yet their beards forbid him to interpret that. They are so which we saw that. We have the joke about, you know, men playing women in Shakespeare players, but also we're playing with that ambiguous jedil thing, with with whitches that we were talking a bit about, that it is part of their identity that they're blurring gender, and also sort of points towards the dwarfs and there bes that we talked about in and seeing academicals. So I thought I thought that was an interesting line. Every time I made a dwarf in Pratchett world, now I imagine it as a drag queen. Okay, because of our conversation last which makes it better. Honestly, you should try it makes it much more fabulous, for sure. So, although laws argues that the weird sisters bear to Macbeth represent traditional nurturess of which is as filthy and the old women, as m Isabel cap develop points out in her age and rage article that we talked about last time, in a culture that still equates acceptable and desirable femininity with beauty and youth, the figure of the which as an old crone Hag Gogne or Medusa, keeps haunting cinema screens and works of fiction and fear the assumption that women cease being physically attractive once they reach old age, Yep, and she argues that Pratchetts, which is novels fashion, a space for the celebration of old age and the expression of a full range of perspectives that challenge the prevailing attitudes to old people and the process of aging in Contemporary Society through the figures of granny weather wax and will Nanni ago, is going to say my grab, but mcgrat's young. So, although to ask, maybe it's a weakness. I was saying that any weather wax and Anialga so assured and so in control of everything. Something crude. It's doing that's kind of revolutionary with in fantasy, is portraying elderly women as capable. Yeah, and the protagonist really of effect. I guess that's why I like the like the characterization of them in the relationship between them. Yeah, and this is where we get the thing where she's arguing that, instead of reversing the gender roles just by turning women and putting them in men's positions, part subverts of existing parameters that define general roles by presenting female jobs as tough, necessary and a bubble heroic. So that's the context of Macbeth at the time of writing, but it's interesting how much of that context has sort of been embedded within culture itself because of Macbeth, that these ideas are still relevant now because he was, you know, someone argue making fun of them at the time. That's actually led to their perpetuation. All right, that's the historical deep dive out of the way and now we get to get onto the fund stuff, because in the in the secret section of last episode, it is that we were going to talk about, which is rubbing clues and jetic ointments on broomstick so that they could set them in their vaginas. We're going to talk about that right now. Sorry, Yay. Yeah, so I I mentioned that, while my favorite scene in all of we sisters is granny weatherwaxer navigating the kingdom on their broomsticks. Are you know, that made me think, well, where does this idea of which is writing broomsticks come from? Now, if you Google why the riches right Broomsticks, one of the first things that comes up is a two thousand and seventeen Forbes article titled The origin of which is writing Broomsticks, drugs from nature plus Shakespeare, by quote natural pharmacologist David Kroll, who claims that herbal ingredients traditionally used in whitches ointments, such as man direct, deadly nightshade and so on, we're all WHO UCINOGENIC and the greater effects could be achieved by ingesting these ointments either rectily or virginally. Therefore, brooms now rectal. It's something I've heard. I don't know, as we mentioned a previous podcast drug scammy, but I don't know if you've done this writing. Not Shopped Broomstick up by our sorry, but if you have, we want to hear from you. Look, we do. I've questions. So crolls claims are based on pharmacologist and BBC Radio Presenter John Man's One thousand nine hundred and ninety two book murder, magic and medicine, and he suggest that which is ingested their ointments annally or vaginally to avoid poisoning their stomachs, because for some reason that works. However, he always says bullshit inquisitive testimony and forced confessions as those no, he only say its One unreference twenty century report of hallucinations by someone trying to recreate this effect. I mean, he probably seems like he knows what he's talking about, but this is there's not a whole lot of actual evidence being presented here. More of our most of the example embles he sites emphasize...

...deep sleeping the result of ingesting these substances. So he cites an experiment with a similar ointment that was conducted on the wife of a hangman, I'm sure, willingly, which was described by the physician to per juice, the third in one thousand five hundred and forty five, who says that, upon being anointed, she suddenly slept in such a profound sleep, with her eyes open, like a rabbit, so that he could not imagine how to wake her up. She was pretending, so you left her alone. This sort of points to the borrowing right. MMM, what growing weather wax does when that thinks she's a hit, which I'm sure it's connected to hallucinations and things. Man also points out the description of the potion given to Romeo and Juliet by FRY Lawrence. Do you want to read this one? You don't have it, so I've got to read this one. Yeah, you do. No warmth, no breath shall testify their livist the roses in thy lips and cheeks shall fade to Paley ashes. By eyes windows fall like death. When he shuts up the day of life, each part, deprived of supple government, shall stiff and stark and cold appear like death. And in this borrowed likeness of shrunk death, thou shalt continue to and forty hours and then awake as a form of pleasant sleep. So yes, he's linking that to these sort of witches ointments, the similar effects there, but no mention of flying or hallucinations. Right. We got more connection to Shakespeare. That brood sticks. Okay, Roman and really is really interesting because everyone talks about it as a romance, and there enough, but it's also the one of them more goth the key of the Shakespearean plays, like in the Crypt, with the scene where Juliet's down there on her own, that one with the potion, like this is graveyard poetry stuff. Yeah, it's. It's the michemical romance play. Karl also says that the court legendary pharmacologist, Susan Band Horowitz, pointed out to him that one of the ingredients used by Shakespeare's witches and Beth is slips of you, which suggests what she says suggest the chemotherapy drug packs, packs of Taxel, which is derived from the Pacific you tree and has been claimed to cause delirium and hallucinations in cancer patients. I'm not sure about this one. The the you tree is native to the American Pacific Northwest, so I'm not sure how likely Shakespeare in England would have known about it. You trees were known, but maybe not specific you tree. Well, she's connecting it to this specific yeah and that has this chemical because, yeah, the British colonization of America began in the s though maybe I don't know if that makes it more or less likely that he would have been familiar with these plants if they're bringing them back over, like look what we found, or I don't know. But conversely, in he's note in fifty four book which raft today, the founder of the modern wiccan movement, Gerald Gardener, states that no which ever flew through the air on a broomstick or anything else, at least not into our planes, came in. All right, Gerald later like that. So he instead associates the broomsticks with fertility and crop growing charms, which involved riding around on a pole or a broom like a hobby horse, and claims that fertility poles shaped like fellas has were merely symbolic. Right, no one's stuff in these up themselves to kiss fun. I mean I'm sure someone is. It wasn't required, but a kill joy. Okay. So essentially we're saying right, he's saying the witches, they're gone out. They're doing the happy Gilmore with their broomsticks. For there. Where's that? They with the Petrol Garner further suggested, which is carried poles and quarter starts to meetings as weapons and tools for traversing through forests. Right there, pole vaulting over ditches. And he says that they went naked to the meetings because if they were rated, they might not have time to dress and they'd have to leave their clothes behind, so they better off just going naked so that there's no evidence. This sounds like something he wanted to be opened. Gerald Ghanner, inventor of the drop the tower from your boyfriend challenge, UN fifty four Gunn also claims that grease, or so it was put on the pole during fertility rituals, the yeast infection. Yeah, he claims that resource put on the pole during these fertility rituals could also be used as evidence against the witches. So that's why they were taking broomstick, which could be explained away as being dirty. There's a lot of speculation going on here. Do Things, as I say, east infection, splinters, splinters. Yeah, this is where it gets really weird, right. So he says that during prosecution times, they would put the broomsticks between their legs and right on them when approaching their meeting places as a sign that they belonged to the cult. That's like, I am a witch, but also as a defense, so if someone comes out, you've but like a lance. I think he's doing a lot of yeah, speculating, guesswork. If the pharmacologist guy was speculative, then I think so is gardener Gerald. Show US you weary footnotes. But well, he I'll say that nowadays they just walk or take a bus or whatever. So you know he's beginning with the Times. He also mentions a Mexican goddess who was always represented as naked and carrying or writing a broom she claimed represented cleanliness or ritual purity. I didn't look into this too hard, but I couldn't find anything really prominent or specific that would connect that to anything. So again I feel like he's reaching for just any explanation at this point. Yeah, it's all pretty loosely connected and far fit, I think, to you agree. Oh, I agree. Yeah, it's not practice. All...

I feel like, which is a much smarter than that, then I'm going to turn up on a broomstick, especially if they're like any weather wax. Right. Yeah, you imagine her writing naked on a broom maybe mcgrat would be. That's the same before the start of weird sisters is great weather acting and Nanny Aga, sitting by the thing in mcgrat, comes out of the woods baked, riding a broom and they're like well, honey, she's like, I didn't bring them, and they're like that's dumb, it's cold. Well, they're not being persecuted yet. So so as for more scholarly investigations, according to the folklore of discworld, the fashion for broomsticks began in late medieval France and Flanders and only started spreading after about one, sixteen hundred. But in he is two thousand and seventeen book the which a history of fear, Ronald Hutton claims that the earliest picture of a witch riding a broomstick comes from a one thousand four hundred forty French pamphlet describing our which is Sabbath, and that the sticks are presumably anointed with magical ungent, which was the main means of local mission to the stabbath in earlier account out. You've got the picture there. That's like yeah, that's the pictures he's talking about. So apparently that's the earliest of our reference to which is writing, writing broomsticks for the state too. Forty. He put petrol in the car. You put your magical lungeon on your room and get you where you got to go. There are similar depictions of male magicians writing their staffs in Medieval norse literature, although I was reading today back in equal rights there's a bit where grandy weather wax asks why don't wizards ride their staffs and says that would be undignified. So not not in discworld but in round world. In Medieval Norse literature, apparently this was a thing, although Hutton suggests that the distance in time and space between the North Staff and and fifteen century France is too big in time and space for it to be anything more than, you know, kind of a coincidence or or a common tradition instead, he traces the idea to Roman, which is in the second century, Latin fictions of Appalais and Lucian and ancient associations with the classical figure of the stricks, which is an anthropaphagous metamorphsizing bird. Well, I'll just like something, okay, and just anthropopagious means eating human flesh, because people would say cannibalistic. But as someone who talks about in technical terms about meat eating, yeah, if you're cannibal, you eat the meat of the same species that you are. If you're anthropaphagous, you eat human flesh. So He ultimately contends that medieval conceptions of whiches were a mixture of Mediterranean child killing, night demon assises and Germanic Cannibal, which is very cool. But in the Melius milificarum, which is not just the name of the debut album by the death metal band pestilence, but a famous fous four and eighty six treaty cell on witchcraft, which translates to hammer of the witches, which is not just the name of credible fills two thousand and fifteen come back record. Wow, you set that up, I did, for you to smash it down with the witch. So the Melia Smith Mallius is worth a Cara. The melias Morficarum claims that which is road on a piece of wood grease adointment made partly from human baby fat. Also, in the French philosopher Gene Bowden's de la De monstre, de sorceries or of the Demon Menia of the sorceress, sure that's a blackmail album, name from eighty suggest that people applied the ointment to their own bodies and then flew themselves, while others rode on animals or brooms or a pole, and Hutton likens this animal. Writing. Two depictions of the classical nature got US Artemis or Diana right at the hunting got us from brick literature. The French ministrate Nicholas Room Aye, thousand five hundred and ninety five three demon books, contains confessions by witches who claimed that they had flown up their chimneys on an anointed basket or brooms. which that seems interesting to me because it is this sort of something we're overlooking here is the Association of Broomsticks with female domestic again, maybe it's the idea of like, you got to fly out your chimney. Is that the only way for women to get out of the house? Right? They can't just walk out the front door. I'm going to the Sabbath, back later, all right, wait till the runs asleep and go out the way Santa comes in. Yeah, a more recent examination is provided by CHAZ S Clifton. In each chapter, which is still fly, or do they? In the twenty nine collection magic of vitry in the modern West, they suggest that flight must be a metaphor for astral projection, or imagine travel, which I guess sort of goes back to our pollucinogenic ointments. Other legends suggest that flying ointments were given to which is by Satan when they were initiated into a coven. However, in witchcraft today, Gardner suggests that the ointments were nearly lanolin or wool wax, which was taken from sheet glands and warners camouflage and protection against the outdoor cold, similar to how long distance swimmers might grease themselves up. I mean again speculative, but essentially now we've got commando, which is whole vaulting through the woods, for they would wear these as olfactory afrodisiacs with broom writing being part of a separate fertility ritual. Yeah, he says he'd never known any witches who anointed themselves. All over again, this is the guy who's inventing or reviving the modern wicker movement. So he's hanging out with witches. And he says I don't know anyone who's actually done this, but he had been shown a recipe for an unknownting oil. The only actual suggestion of labial application that I've come across is from the plant pharmacologist Dennis McKenna's...

...memoir of his brother Terence McKenna. Okay, hit me well. He was a wellknown pioneer and promoter of psychedelics, and he tells of the s scholar and keeper of Esoteric Knowledge, John Parker, who claimed that which is flying undone sometimes contain traces of Hasheish and opium and other psychedelic substances, and they use the broom as an applicator to apply the hunngent to their Labia, where these substances could be readily absorbed, with the resulting state of delirium and disorientation inducing a feeling of rising and falling and rushing headlong through the air. Hence of flying the out. The other reference I've found is the crime and fantasy author Michael Harrison's one thousand nine hundred and seventy three book the roots of witchcraft, which talks about booms being used as Dildo like applicators. But again, all of these are second or third hand accounts. So I can't find any like actual which is saying, yes, I have done this. Yeah, okay, I'm saying. And there's are all men, right, even gardener, Gardner speaking for the witches. He knows. So if you've done this, we want to hear about it. If yeah, yeah, patreon special or something. We've just talked a lot about the room flight, which is used in the scene where where she flies around. There the kingdom, which is of course a sort of parody or secondary reference to the sleeping beauty fairytale, which we are going to go into detail about with, which is abroad, but it also gives us the first mention of Black Alice, who is the well, it's Alice aliss right, so not like thank it. WHO's yeah, the the fairytale which stretches the combination of all of them, and she's the wicked witch who's cackled and went mad with power. Right in Weird Sisters Black Alice is she's the standard for all the fairytale, which is but she's a standing for specifically and weird sister's hands on grattle. Right. She's living the gingerbread house and the kids come and push her in there in the oven. At the end. She's a very old woman who's leaning on a crutch and she has red eyes and can't see you very far but has a keen sense of smell. So she's kind of animalistic as well, and she's described as being wicked and godless wicked, implying the practice or disposed to practicing evil according to theeed. So that's sort of your fairy tale, you know, stereotype of the witch. But in the witch in history, Dome and purpose talks about the archetype of the Cannibal which who, she says, is a dark double of a mother who will not or cannot provide food for her children and which became manifest in the old English hansel and Gretel type story called Black Alice. Really Yeah, and that actually lines up because I've, in researching for which is a broad next episode, been going through the GRIMM's tales and one of their unpublished tales. Most of the ones they didn't publish were because they were from non German sources, so I can't remember if this was a French or or a Dutch one, but there's one called the children of famine, which is essentially Hansel and Gretel without all the fun. What do you mean that? So the house is most maid and then which is there's no will enhance on Gretel. It's actually a bread house rather than a gingerbread house, and in the grim version it's base substance. You're yeah, so the tale of Hanselm and Gretel. In the grim version there's the children of a woodcutter who can't provide for his children, so his wife suggest they leave. They leave the kids in the forest so that they have two less mouths to feed, and this is a recurring trope of the grim stories. Is the this goes back to the mother who refuses to feed her children that pocose was talking about. Yep, and the husband is always the hero, like the Patriarch Standing, because he refuses and is reluctant. And then they kill the witch, who's like a stand in for the mother. They come home and the mother has strangely died and they're all happy to be reunited by their father. So, yeah, the groom's fairy tales are are not great. that their brutal, from what I remember. Okay, and then they're the cleaned up versions. Yeah. So there's also this other one, children of famine. That is essentially that story without the embellishments about the witch and the House and everything. It's just there's a mother who threatens to actually eat her children because they have no food sour leave him in the forest. She's like, well, why don't we we eat the kids, and then the resolution to that is they're all right, how about, instead of you eat us, we just go to sleep forever and you never have to feed us. So they do and then she goes away. Or maybe they didn't include the story of the book because it was a bit shit. But so, I mean, we go to sleep forever, is that? That's still death, though, isn't it's that the emphas actually, yeah, yeah, okay, I don't know if it's not a really developed story or anything, but yeah, this is the trope of the Cannibal which the purpose is talking about. So in her two thousand and eighteen thesis, fantasy and feminism. Miriam Lefty Hurst points out that wicked witches are often described as looking distinctly Semitic, their prominent noses and Chins, as well as bushy hair, and that the traditional witches had also bears some resemblance to the peaked caps that Jews were in the Middle Ages. For what? But there were forced to wear them to identify themselves. And she suggest that fairy tales like Hanceling Gret or contribute to an anti Semitic rhetoric about bloodthirsty Jewish women praying on Christian children. Gosh, she's that a thing? I don't mean any Semitic ghetoric that at that. I get. No, no, the well, the myth that Jews eat Christian children is is definitely a thing, but the connections to the witch, which is really obvious, is like something that hadn't really occurred to me. She gives the examples of several snape from Harry Potter is being no we a coated...

...yeah, and specifically the wicked witch of the West from the wizard of Oz count our laugh from a series of unfortunate events. So that stereotype is yeah, sort of this Christian prejudice origin for this each of the which and again, yeah, it's our left trying to eat the kids or not eat Philim wow. So Hurst they're for argies that, because of this antisemitic history, even positive portrayals of corones with pointed hats, such as Tera cratchit's with sisters, could be upsetting for some readers. which, yeah, I mean I'm not I'm not Jewish, I'm not really keyed into that. This seems really obvious in retrospect. That sort of what I read. That iver was like, Huh, house, House, for thought about that one. There again. Then there's the discrepancy between the content and the artwork, where granny weatherwax add now they all got to pick with these big noses and the big Chins and everything. So as much as Pratchett's trying to subvert these things somewhat, they are being packaged and sold those pictures on the cover. So on the folklore of discworld, Pratchett and Simpson explained that Black Alis carry sinister echoes drifting across from Earth of a hideous hag called black annus who lived in a cave just outside Leicestershire. And blackenness reportedly had a dark blue face and her nails were long, sharp talents projects CIS and say there can be no doubt that she ate people, Naughty children mostly, but good ones too if they stayed out late, and that she would scratch them to death with their claws, suck their blood and hang out their skins to dry. HMM. Yeah, and they say if memories from Black Annas as mine, had infected Black Alice, it's a wonder that she didn't become far more wicked than she did. So again they're playing on this idea that I was taking issue with of like m mcgrat and, and he'll hearing the echoes from the other world. They're saying that Black Alice has actually been infected by these fairy tales from the quantum resonance. Or well, that actually makes more sense now. Okay, well, it makes sense in terms of Huel because he had we're told, he sees the visions like a dinner bioshock infinite the video game. Is that the Blueie One? It's a greeny one. Now maybe. I mean this is not a weird where, this is quite a big sort of cultural touchstone. Essentially, it's a randy and Dystopia, and then you're a big doc man. That's not important. Yet know if played this. Okay, I will buy shot connus. The third one, which isn't the underwater I ran dystop here. It's the in the Sky Weird Christian, fundamentalist, racist America DYSTOPIA. The point is in that there's a whole thing where the soundtrack is Likewi s versions of modern pop songs. Okay, and the idea is that one of the mechanics in the game is the open time riffs. So the musician has been opening time riffs, hearing music from another time and then bringing them back into this time. So that's sort of what fills doing, and I'll take it to this effects black annus, but I'm not sold on the Magrat is also feeling the quantum resonance. HMM, okay, like pendance and things are really starting to kick in. However, in triumph of the moon, Hutton argues that the legend of black ours is based on a popular and respected lady named Agnes Scott, who lived a life of prayer in a cave and her story was then distorted by Protestant reformers. Is Yet that checks out yeah, probably, probably not. A was the line. There can be no doubt that she ate people. Right. Seems more likely that there was an old lady. People told stories about the army hammer approach to witchcraft. Hop and also points out the similarity of black ANNIS's name to the Irish goddess a new not sure how similar that is, which he says made her one of the most striking English personifications of the great goddess in her crown aspect. Actually this looks really well. Back into the names then, because Black Elis has real name is Alice demurrage. So to marriage is an obsolete word meanings to stay or delay, but it's also used in in commerce more commonly these days. It's essentially a fine for a boat staying in Indoc too long. And again, maybe this is this is one of my wild theories. But like Jarek and a something there would like. It's the toll, it's the price that the witches have to pay, because that is black Alice's whole point and character. I've been in the book like, why did you pick that word? I mean, I hope so. I'd like it to be. It's a nice coincidence. Let's put it that way. Yeah, it seems a bit round about, but like that name, specifically, demurrage, is like very specifically been picked. Yeah, because in which is abroad the fairy godmother who leaves her one to mcgrat and everything, her name is desiderata, which means something that's needed or wanted, and that's a very deliberate naming of that character. So I do wonder if, like demrhage means something, but the only thing I can find is this vessel tax, which seems really round about that. So if someone's got a better idea than me, please let me know. Because, yeah, she's black. Elis is the standing for the witch who's gone to power hungry, which again plays into the broader themes of the book, because you've got the Jew who says that which magic rules, magic destroies, and granny who says Magic's there to be ruled, not for ruling. So there's something going on there. So all the Sigei is that by emphasizing that the witches must have show the temptation to use their power to put themselves in a superior social position, Pratchett proposes a fundamentally libertarian political agenda that is reflected throughout the series. What do you think of that, Elis, because this is something that we're but sort of going to revisit with which is abroad. The sort of Philosoophy, I think granny weather wax issues there...

...that the witches, because there's sort of looking after everyone. They're they're in the community, they're helping everyone, but at the same time they're sort of saying that everyone has to do it for themselves. So it's a weird mashup between neoliberalism, socialism libertarianism. Yeah, because if we think about this going back to equal rights, like you know, is this a feminist text? And I think it's. Penny Hill has sort of criticize some of the praising of Pratchett that like our because he wrote a female wizard. He's there for feminist and I think giggle writes is quite a feminist text. But the idea that will is Pratchett actually portraying a feminist philosophy, or is it just or squen did it by herself and she was the selfmade woman and things which grant granny weather wax and Natty Ogu and the witches have power because they are the the individuals and especially we'll see in will know I was going and say we'll see hi, which is a broad but especially in weird sisters, like gratty weatherwax is the last same man or the last same woman. You know that trope. Yeah, yeah, the idea that you know, you're the only one who can see the truth because you're special. But that bothered me. Yeah, I think it comes back to our discussion of like there's no what's the word? There's no flow in the world building. It doesn't match up and he's doing different things in different books we're talking about. So maybe, okay, yes, I guess as can be constructors, a feminist, because she's like Nah, fuck you, guys, we'll take taking it away from the comparison with equal rights and the feminist angle, just like what do you think of the philosophy that is happening in weird sisters like is I don't think it's feminist. It's unless you think about as like Oh, yes, sisters doing it for themselves, but they're doing what Satan does. In essence, they are becoming the powerful people who are manipulating any of everything. Rather than fixing anything or changing anything for the better, they're just like Oh, we'll do it, yeah, that's the tension I'm sorry getting at, is that they are these community people who care about everyone, but at the same time they help people because they look down on people, right, this idea that which is are above everyone else. They help people because they think people are too they can't help themselves. Yeah, because they're not educated enough and they're too superstitious and and I guess then he's dealing with the tension of can people help themselves if they've got that superstition and they need someone else to jump in? Yeah, again it is in a kind of patronizing way quite often, like anywhether works anywhere. Yeah, I like anywhere wax as well, but this is becoming a parent on this. I guess this is like at least my for three read of the entire series, and I am noticing that that, like, I think pretchets are progressive liberal sort of person, but like it is this libertarian individualism rather than, I guess, modern progressive thing. And we sort of talked about this in the unseen academicals episode and talking about how the gender thing is sort of this flip. It's not really looking at like. Well, my problem with the integrating all the races in town more polk and the goblins. And the thing is that people are only valuable if they provide something, if they're productive members of the watch neoliberalism. Right, yeah, whereas I mean Gretny weatherwaxes and do that. She's like, this is a conversation for which is abroad, where she's saying he can't treat people as objects, you have to treat them as people in and of themselves. So it's not quite this near liberalist everyone out for themselves, then, but she is special because she knows more and she knows better. And Hmm, I think, yes, okay, I'll come back to whatever which is abroad. But in this one it really did seem like she was just treating people as objects that she could move around on a chess board. That didn't seem like she actually was beyond like the sisters. It didn't know the coven. Rather, it didn't seem like she was genuinely invested in like humanity. HMM. In an interview with the book critic Elizabeth Young, project admits that granny weatherwax often speaks for him. This is Pratchett's philosophy as well, this sort of libertarian I go. And another thing we talked about in Duns, in academicals things, is equal rights as revolutionary and in the fantasy genre for having female characters, female wizards. Yes, sir, I discovered book by a Tasmanian author called Tansy rain of Roberts, called projects women, UN authorized essays on female characters of the discworld from two thousand and eighteen, and in that book she actually really doesn't like equal rights. She says it is the note. I think she says it's one of the worst or the the most boring, boring. She was disappointing it because she saved it up as like one of the last one she read and then she found it as less sophisticated than the later books. But she said that upon rereading the series, because this book is sort of her going through on rereading the series and just recording her thoughts about it. Right, and she yea. So she loves weird sisters, like everyone who's not your I actually I think she specifically talking about which is a broader but she talks about which is abroad and and weird sisters. She notices that these are fantasy novels by a best selling male author in which all the important characters are women and that this, you know, is a rarity that hadn't happened before. And Yeah, I can't really think of that's been examples. The one that jumped to my mind is to more pierce, who is, of course a woman and is is writing her first the Alana series, around the same time as this. There's that Laquins, the other one. But, as we discussed in the equal rights thing, Pratchett came well before she started writing female protagonist and female characters. Sir, even if you want to include female fantasy authors like I can't really think of a best selling fantasy series where women are prominent characters, even in the here rolling, which is the prominent fantasy series after Pratchett right drops off, like the main characters are dude, you have one female character of note. Yeah, that's...

...yes to every one. Half, if you're on account Jinny, who's the special set? I count the GONEA gold, but does she do anything with the granny weather works of that world? I mean, if we're doing like face casting, movie casting, I do picture granny weather wax as a Nova. Make Smith. Yeah, Maggie Smith Played mcgonagall, which I mean that's kind of cheating but also like that's exactly it. And also I think Grannie weatherwax has clearly inspired the characterization of mcgonagall or yeah, I think you're right. So yet for his time Prashett is very revolutionary. But we talked about in dancing academicals in the first episode that he is a white guy in a fedora. He is famous for being that dude. So sort of rereading them now in today's conducts, I don't think the conservative I'm not concerned about them or anything, but these things are jumping out at me. That granny weatherwaxes philosophy is very libertarian and it is shovinistic, I think is the word, especially when we get to the end of which is abroad. I mean she essentially goes into the kingdom and says, I need to say everything right because these natives don't know how to do it themselves. Sort of thing, which is well intentioned, but you know, different contexts. So that's why I wanted to bring that up. I mean, obviously authors right characters who they don't agree with, but Pratchett saying that granny weatherwax is sort of his favorite character, that is the mouthpiece for his ideology in his philosophy and things captain vill argues. However, the Pratchett not only presents a positive vision of female aging through his old witches, but also uses these characters to expand on an ethics about the duties society and individuals have towards the wretched of the Earth, exploiting the rascals, ability, irascibility and in patience of his elderly, which is especially granny, to lash out against stupidity, foolishness or shortsightedness and defend the rights and the dignity of everyday people. He's anger is never blind, it is tempered by compassion and mercy and, above all, controlled and Prajett's works. And it is ethical, since it is attached to a sense of responsibility towards those who need help. So she at least is taking this libertarian thing, the saying yes, Grannie, is this last same woman person who's above everyone else. But she's employing it too. I don't want to say socialist, but the idea that she is, I mean it's a little kind of sending the stupid, the foolish in the short sighted, but the idea that she feels like her moral responsibility is toward the wretched of the earth. Yeah, okay, so it's complex. It's good, though, because then it's which is are often representatives. They're out to get those folks right. They're corrupting the society, yeah, whereas here she's trying to, yeah, support them and put them back together. It's the goody Blake and Harry Gil John Going to go on or Amosis, and right, definitely do, because I don't know her. Goody Blake and Harry Gola in words worth talks about this in the lyrical ballads, one of which is cold goody Blake and Harry Gil, and the storyline, very briefly, is goody blake is a poor woman, essentially a vagrant lady, who lives near Harry Gil, who's a pretty okay dude, rich farmer, he's fine, and she's taking sticks out of his hedge to build her fire because she's going to freeze to death. And then Harry but Harry Gil finds her and is like a you're an awful woman, you which and so she says, Oh, you'll be cold forever, and then he can't get warm and like on the surface it's about you know this, which lady curses this dude and heats off as forever. But really it's about society's representation of women as witches and like, you know, if she put them on the sidelines of society, are they're going to be miserable and have a really awful time. So maybe we should help them. So it's worthworth also so combating that kind of yet the idea of what a which is and perhaps it's not super productive. And I guess Pratchett's doing the same sort of thing and then he represents and is actually helping society, though we will revisit this in which is abroad. We're going to revisit a lot of things in which is abroad. Yeah, I do think a lot of all the discob books, which is a broad and we sisters are the two most closely knit ones that are sort of dealing with the same ideas. And yet we'll reverse the idea of cultural schauvinisms and things next episode. All right, I'll get so they have a bit of a vegetarian round here now, because as I'm not saying like yeah, I'm a couple of books ahead. I've just finished reading lords and ladies. There's a lot of vegetarian stuff showing up in these books, whichild was not ready for. Yeah, a lot of a lot of more meat, cornust things in which is abroad, but then vegetarian follow up in Lords and ladies, which we'll talk about when we get to those books, because we had granny weather wax in equal rights, says that the reason city people are always worried is they don't eat natural food. Here we have a direct engagement with vegetarianism, with the ghosts and things. So, as bother observes, in the pocket essential Terry Pratchett, traditional magic is reinterpreted and weird sisters through both projects, which is having to improvise with their equipment, and Margaret's fair vegetarian ethics, which are inspired by her mental goody Wimper, who was against all unnecessary cruelty. And Yeah, so when they're when they are improvising with the different materials they can use, the couldron things, the grant reminds granny weather wax that vegetable protein is a perfectly acceptable substitute for the eye of Newton, that they're frogs and things during the coldron scene. So Pratchett was making fun of that, or was he being like this, do this no, no, I think he's making fun of it because this is part of granny weather waxes, I guess conservatives of the libertarianess is that we're talking about is that she's like she's kind of sending to magret their Magarettes, this new age thing, and she's into vegetarianisms as silly and they should use the newts and th things because it doesn't matter. I think gets more of a nuance treatment in Lords and ladies, which is a...

...bit more on Magaret side. That book, I'm but here. Yeah, it's she's young and naive and is trying to do all these silly things and granny weatherwaxes telling a you know, the proper ways to do things, or part of Granny weatherwax of things is you don't have to use the right material. So she doesn't have a problem with using unconventional materials, but the fact that it's vegetarian or something, she's looking down her nose at it, which to me suggest Pratchett's disapproval and mcgret's naive. So He's definitely more readily identified with granny weatherwax, as he said, and Nanny Ogg. Yeah, because there's also the comment about about how an adult male carries up to five pounds of underdist and red meat and he's intestines at all times. I thought that was funny. Well, that comes from Margret who, it says, her informative lectures on nutrition have been known to cause whole families to fight in the cellar until she went away. So you're laughing now. I mean this is being played for. She's the annoying, Naggy Vegan. Right that I'm a should I guess. I guess I'm all laughing that. Like, yeah, thats totally true. It's well, it's actually a reference to a similar quote by the detective billy rose would, played by judge reinhold, in the one thousand nine hundred and eighty four Eddie Murphy Film Beverly Hills Cop. I mean it's a general thing anyway, but it's sort of made famous in that movie, and he's the good hearted, bumbling by the book cop who befriends whefy's cool will breaking acts or folly. So sort of a continuation of that stereotype that he's simple and naive and misled and or not miss led but out of touch. Yeah, okay, the l space annotators also commented. The mcgrat's claim is also stereotypical propaganda that radical vegetarians like to quote in order to Brust people out and get them to stop eating meat, while pointing out that of course the average vegetarian has about five pounds of undergested vegetable matter in their intestines as well. So a bit of editorializing going on there from the annotators and indeed, in according to Pratchett, presumably via personal correspondence with the annotators, I can find a sauce for it. He says he got the quote from some way out vegetarian stuff he'd read before he'd even seen bellly hills cop which made him feel ill for days. So this propaganda is being effective on him. But then he's he's lampooning and making fun of it in right look like mcgrat is the butt of that joke. The reason to sympathize with the people who are running away from her vegetarian lectures. And we sympathize with the Grat, I mean I sympathize with my grant. So spoiler for one of the things I like, the two things I like about which is a broad next episode. But mcgrat is one of them. I think the first few times I read through these I'm like, yeah, granny weather wax as the coolest and mcgrat silly and I didn't really get her. This time, through the witcher series, I'm really pick it up what mcgrat's putting down. I like her a lot and I have read, you know, some reviews and some criticism stuff that says, well, mcgrat is meant to be the author surrogate, right, you're meant to sympathize with her because you're the new person in the society or whatever. But then you are the reader has been condescended to by granty weatherwax. They are telling her how you should be, and the implication is that as mcgrat developed, she become the more like any weather wax and with sisters. There's also the scene where the dead king, who's a ghost, enters the castle kitchen and sees all the ghosts of all the other animals that have been killed there. It says it was full of ghosts, but they weren't human. They were stags, they were bullocks, they were rabbits and pheasants and partridges and sheep and pigs. There were even some round blobby things that looked unpleasantly like the ghosts of Oysters. They were packed so tightly that in fact they merged in, mingled turn the kitchen into a silent just like nightmare of teeth and fur and horns, hafting and misty. So I guess, when we're struggling to name things I liked about this book as at the start I should have picked it. I really like the scene. I think this is a really cool idea and and you've sort of been picking up on like you wanted to talk about some of the animal ethics things with the borrowing and stuff. You have to yes, yes, yes, I can't forel than not, because it's traditionally thought under Christianity that the reason why non human animals don't have ghosts because they don't have souls. Rights have souls. So just implicit in this, which what is essentially a joke in this book, is the idea that in the discworld non human animals have salts. They are on past were actually with human beings and variance has a reaction similar to pratchets, to the thing about the red meat and the Studach of wishing that he still had a real stomach so that he could stick his fingers down his throat for forty years and bring up everything he's eaten. Practice, playing on this reaction that he had to this vegetarian propaganda. But it's being played for comedy and I think it's more like his variants revolted out of disgusted rather than empathy. Like empathy. I think that's him going, Oh Gosh, I wish I could could bring everything up, because he's not discussed by the ghosts because they just goes of all the animals. They're just hanging around. I think he's disgusting because he realizes why they're there and that freaks him out. Oh yeah, but I don't think he feels bad for having done that. I just I think he feels like confronted by them still being alive. Like the problem is not that he ate meat, the problem is that the animals he ate are there. I mean it's been both. Yeah, yeah, I mean, at the end of the day it's just a joke and I'm overthinking it way too much, but this vegetarian thread does get developed further across the next two novels, at least a right I it had me thinking as well. About the horses eating each other joke. I feel like this was Pratchett trying to take a different take on it, but they didn't get very far with it. Then there's also a weird line later about how, through all these ghosts, the cook and his assistants are wandering around quite unconcernedly making vegetarian sausages. And I don't know why they might get a vegetarian sausages...

...there, because isn't the joke that they're making non vegetarian sausages? That's why all the Ghosser in the kitchen, unless the ghosts to haunting the cooks now? Well, so in Lords and ladies, because McGrath Becomes Queen, right, all right, in Lords and ladies, she takes over the castle and makes the cook start cooking vegetarian meals. Yeah, but that hasn't happened yet. Okay, so I don't know than yeah, I don't know what's going on with this line. I mean, obviously logical thing is that, yeah, they're being haunted and that's why, but otherwise it doesn't make any sense. No, Sir, I'm not sure what's doing there. Obviously jumped out to me where I'm you know, looking for these vegetarian things. But it does seem inconsistent with the joke or the the picture of the ghosts in the room that I'm eddiately precedes it. So I'm not quite sure what it's doing there. which brings us to ghosts. So yeah, later in the in Weird Sisters, people complain to who'll well, here I'm going to say hull. Yeah, well, well, it's meant to me. Will that? Yes, not so. Later and with sisters, people complain too well about all the ghosts in his place, to which he responds, why I like ghosts, which is very shure. I feel like that's exactly what Shakespeare would have said, right, because there's lots of ghosts, and Shakespeare most famously, of course, in hamlet and Macbeth and Chilie Caesar. Yeah, I'm although maybe in Macbeth is banquetered like a psychological thing as opposed to an actual nurst. Yeah, well, I mean is in Hamlet. Is Is King hamlet a psychological thing or ago? I mean maybe, but in in sort of the other plays, the ghosts are a lot more ghostly. I think Macbeth's of the most ambiguous, but there's ghosts everywhere else. Is the first of Shakespeare's many a ghost appears in the fourth of his historical plays, in Richard, the third, where the ghosts of the Duke of Clarence and his brother Richard's murder victims appear to them in their dreams, which are let's dreams again. So are they actual apparitions layers shakespeare? This is this is an original. It's not uncommon in all plays. So yeah, certain, because I can mement on from four hundred and fifty eight, BC begins with the ghost of theces inciting his son to revenge the rungs inflicted on him by his brother. And, more contemporaneously to Shakespeare, you have Thomas kidds Spanish tragedy from one Thousan five hundred and ninety, which opens with the ghost of a Spanish nobleman who begins to play with a Soliloquy and his promised death by the end. So this is a convention right, revenge ghosts? Yeah. Nevertheless, the abundance of ghosts in Shakespeare something critics appear to be fixated Toparre. There are multiple books and articles called ghosts in Shakespeare and Shakespeare in the supernatural. Almost all of which are completely useless. I've read four different books about or skim through four different books about Shakespeare and such and natural elements from, I think, going back to like the eighteen hundreds and things. None of them are particularly insightful, as I'm discovering about weird sisters adjacent scholarship. I was thinking about this the other day and I was like maybe it's just because there's not all that much. The shakespere is just like when everyone else. So I'm about to talk about a book from nineteen o six by fterw Mormon, which is yet one thousand nine hundred and six. So that's over a hundred years ago. So I guess at the time maybe it wasn't formally, but now it's just like sort of saying things that are just invented in the culture. Yeah, but Mormon suggest that in the plays of Shakespeare's predecessors the ghost was a mere machine, a voicemouthing vengeance, and that under Shakespeare became endowed with personality and he's cool. Yeah. Well, he goes on to quote J Simmons, one thousand eight hundred and eighty four book, Shakespeare's predecessors in the English drama, who described Shakespeare's ghosts as no longer a phantom roaming in the cold, but a spirit of like intellectual substance, a parcel of the universe in which all actors live and move and have their being, which is interesting because Shakespeare's first editor and biographer, at the eighteen century English poet Laureate Nicholas Rowe, claimed that Shakespeare's own top performance was as the ghost in his own hamlet. That's pretty cool. Yeah, so this is one one we're talking about, pratchet not really going deep. I do think this is a a good commentary and a good job at Shakespeare here. Coming with the ghosts, I did want to go sort of more into the ghost stuff. When I was reading the book and sort of putting the notes together. One of the threads I wanted to follow more than the witch and the history of me Beck stuff, was this ghost studia. Like I like the treatment of ghosts in weirds. This is the idea that he's trapped in the castle and he has to pick up the brick and move it somewhere so we can go away. I thought that was really interesting and I sort of wanted him to do more with that. But when I looked into it at I don't really find anything to sort of go down with the ghost thing. But so there you go. That's Shakespeare ghosts. Thank you. Welcome. Our last topics talk about is mirrors, which we would definitely go into a lot of detail about next episode on on, which is abroad. But while watching the playing weird sisters, granny weather wax says this is art holding a mirror up to life. That's why everything is exactly the wrong way around, which this is project coming up with the idea of for weird sisters in real time. That's what's going on there. But of course it's also a reference to hamlet. Yeah, wearing the eponymous prince tells the dumb tractors. Do you want to do? You want to do the quote about you're much better at the Shakespeare quoting. So this is the thing about hamlet. In the mirrors stood the action to the word, the word to the action, with this special observance that you have stepped not the modesty of nature for anything so done. It's from the purpose of playing who's end, both at the first and now, was and is to hold as twir mirror up to nature to show virtue. Her feature scorn her own image in the very age and body of the time,...

...his form and pressure. So that's our little actual hamlet detail. But of course, yeah, back to winds. This is you have nanny og later reiterating it's ARD. It's what's name? It holds a mirror up to life. So twice now we have another reference to Shakespeare without Shakespeare. Oh He'll having written hamlet within the discworld again. So this one. What's the name? I hadn't picked up on that. Yeah, she is referencing hamlet right there. There is actually I was complaining about, you know, is is mcgrat picking up the quantum resonance like hill as well. There is something in laws and ladies. Granny weatherwax is able to pick up the infinite worlds of the other granny weatherwaxes. The quantum weatherwaxes are probably not MC grat. But the problem, I would be fine with this if it was one of the other if it was there is the quantum resonance and they just picking up these references. But once you put who in there to be the Shakespeare Sarrogate, you need him to have written hamlet for Nanny Ogg to then Reference Hamlet Ya, can't be a quantum resonance if it's just a nil, can it? If it's just shakespeare running Shakespeare and plays in I don't know, two lots. Yeah, all students. That's the end of the the major topics. I do have the miscellaneous section if we just want to do which I have decided is now called missqu world. Yeah, I's pretty have been waiting weeks to drop that one over, I don't came up without like last night. It's fourth will now be known as Miss couild. Yeah, so some things just I noticed that didn't fit in anywhere else. Nanny OGG has fifteen grown up children and a numeral grandchildren, a great grandchildren, which means that she has an eighth son, and I think Shawn Og is the eighth son of nanny OK. So Shawn Ogg's eight son would have a wizard for A. I think I might be getting that math wrong, but whether or not at Shawn or not, the when when it said, yeah, nanny OGG has for of their children like somewhere in there as a wizard. She's not a wizard. But no, because it doesn't matter if she's a wizard or not. There just has to be her eight son has to have an eighth. So so yeah, potential for a wizard. In the OGG family. You have the section where it says a kingdom is made up of all sorts of things. Idea is, loyalties, memories, it all sort of exists together and then all these things create some kind of life, like a living idea made up of everything that's alive and what they're thinking and what people before them thought. And this reminded me of in legal writes episode we were talking about the awesome Scott Card book seventh son, the way Benjamin Franklin creates Americans. This is sort of a right. How he does that? Nothing to say about that. Just this section reminded me of that idea in that book. The other plays that villainize, which is there's the crucible. Yeah, the obvious one, and I didn't really I don't really like the crucible. I don't like I really that much. I don't know whether I like the crucible or not, but I know I don't like death of a salesman. Nobody likes death at the sale. Well, if I have to freaking teach it to so, now tell me you like the crys. Will tell me about the crucible. I just find it interesting, particularly because it you're comparing a tear of wonders currently in the adwelve till this thing, yes, are doing. That is interesting. Crucible in its own it's violent and unpomfortable. I mean I don't like death of a salesman because it's it's hard being an old white guy the play. But and then so to go to the crucible, it's like yeah, getting propter. Yeah, where it's like well, actually, women are, which is that they are bitches, is sort of it's that the more where to take away from I guess that's the moral of it. I enjoy the play, though. I find it interesting to read. But do I yeah, yeah, I mean I thought it was fine as a play, but when I'm like thinking about it, I'm like one of my getting out of this play. But yeah, I didn't really find any connection to weird sisters to go down with that, which is kind of strange if you're going to write a book about plays and which is to not really jump on the crucible. I guess it's a superstition thing. I'll maybe he just was like now, this is too off. Each special he did Macbeth. Yeah, Richard the third is play that when we're talking about shaping history. Yeah, Peter taught me thing about the tempest. If you want to hear it, I do. It's not relevant to the podcast, but you know, Caliban says I should get the island because my new cigarettes my mother made it, you know, so I should get it. And anyone who agrees with Caliban, which is a lot of people, because we didn't sympathize with him, this is shakes meas tricky way of tricking everyone into sympathizing with Mary Queen of Scott's. Okay, Mary Queen of Scottshould by rights have been queen of England through her mother's line. Well, that is relevant to the podcast because the fall is Alban King. He's kind of Caliban in that he know, he scurries around and he's treated back. So yeah, maybe he is, but he's he inherits the kingdom through his mother. MMM Ay, well, which also in the I think we skipped over right in the very queen of Scotts then, because everyone thought she was a witch. Well, I don't know enough about that to go off about it here, but if you have a rant you can go for it or just we can leave in the Mary and of POPAD. Okay, because the other thing, I think we skipped over it in the Macbeth history stuff, but part of Banque's going to the throne in the history stuff is also through his mother. Yeah, there is something going on about the matrilineal line through weird sisters and through Shakespeare stuff as well. Yeah, so here's one for you. or in the FOCO of discworld, it says there are practical reasons to if you believe that a spell will only work if you wear your robes and use the right colored ink on the right kind of parting it, while burning the right kind of incense on the right day of the week, you will be helpless in...

...an emergency. If an emergency arises and then you don't have all your paraphernalia at hand. Three lunk were riches once needed to invoke a demon, but, as they were in any oggs washhouse of the time, mcgrat protested. Oh but you can't not hear. You need a cauldron and a magic sword and an octagram and spices and all sorts of stuff. And Granny and any exchange glances. It's not her faults, AD Grenny, it's all then grimmers. She was brought. She turned to margret. You don't need none of that, she said, you need head Ology. She looked around the ancient wash room. You just use whatever you've got, she said, and this sort of goes back to practical and yet knowing the methods are, knowing why it works or whatever. Yes, do you have anything to say about this? And I think this again goes all the way back to a lot of magic is just superstition. You go through, you know, a baby in a well and that make sure cow produce more milk. But actually it's all head Ology. You know, it's understanding the world and how it works. You don't just have blind faith in some weird stuff that someone's told you, which there's grimmers meant to be grim noise. Yeah, GRIMMAS is meant. Yeah, Grimmas. Because I was sort of like, if we go back to last episodes, I was interpreting equal right says the wizards are the ones who are researching and trying to understand magic on a theoretical level, whereas the witch is just know why it works what to do to make it work. But here we've got your sort of interpretation that you had where mcgrat is the Standin for the wizards who read the books and have the method but don't actually understand magic, whereas Y, any and many understand magic so they can improvise the bring in words worth propaganda once more. Uh Huh, Hey, because he's out in the natural world and he's going on I feel God and all things and I feel it in me and he's getting all like Oho in nature, and I think it's a kind of the same thing with magic, like you can go out there and go, yes, this is a tree or whatever, but you kind of got a stand on the clifftop and just let it kind of flow through. I think that's what the other witches are sort of talking about. Yeah, Bos thought that was interesting. In the last time we saw this divide between the practical and the understanding, between wizards and which is whereas now we have it within which is themselves. M Yeah, that's it. This is why it's in the misworld section, because I don't have a point about it. It's just there. I just have words worth the way. We talked about references. How this book isn't funny because it's just blatant references to us. But there's a reference that I do not get. And this sort of comes into like in all that theory of human stuff that I was reading, they were saying that intertextual humor, you don't have to know the original Shakespeare like like. You can recognize the formula of a joke or recognize when something is a reference and still find it funny because of the construction and things. So this is an example of a bit where I'm recognizing that this is a reference. It's meant to be triggering the recognition in me, but I don't know what that recognition is. So therefore I'm not finding it funny. So there's a bit about the strawberry birthmark. They say a strawberry birthmarks one of those things you've got to have if you're a prince coming to claim your kingdom. That's so everyone will know. Of course was I don't know how they know it's a strawberry. So like, obviously I understand the context here that there is a story somewhere where a king is recognized by their birthmark. Is there, or is he or are they just like doing that all, you know? Or to be a print you've got to have the thing. Whatever the thing is, you got to have the dashing hair. Well, I thought, no, no, I think it's like the mark of like you're the king. Yeah, the like being born with a birthmark or having some kind of insignia on you the proves that you're the rightful air. That is a fantasy trope. So I get that. I understand. Yeah, but the specificity of a strawberry, like if it just said you have to have a birthmark. That's how you know your key. I'm wondering if the strawberry thing's just a joke on the specificity of the birthmark. Will know it has to be a reference, because then, like, why would you put strawberry in their strawberries and see if actually just going, Oh, you've got to have that birthmark. It a strawberry. The cocacola the not completely different joke formulations the strawberry is they had to trigger a reference. Have you read that once in future king isn't a reference to that? Wow, when I was a child I don't remember it. I couldn't funny thing. So I don't know what that is. If anyone does, please let me know at I've set it up now. I'm seen academicals pod at gmailcom could get unseen academicals at Gmail. That was taken, so I don't know as to if you send it to their. So that's unseen academical spot at gmailcom or one way right and if you agree it's a joke, or if you know where it's from here, if you know what the strawbery is all about. Any any favorite jokes, because set them at the start. Yeah, I think I said my favorite joke was the first line and that's it. The only other one I've got written down is I liked that the analog of as you like it, was. Please yourself, but you're already propriod that. So that's all I got. No favorite jokes. Says we didn't find this book very funny. I'm still like dealing with whether or not they were Thespians, but didn't look like it. Is Funny or not to tell me about that one. I think it's meant to be a joke on lesbians, but didn't look like it. Yeah, it's not funny then, but then the thespians part of it made made me laugh because I'm like, Oh, yeah, Thespians, but didn't look last trainey, who's going to win season two of drag race UK. Oh No, they just did the snash game where they have to do celebrity person nations. That was the last episode and he did a a well. He's opening joke of when he introduced whats your character? His joke was I'm a Thespian lesbian and he was put in the bottom and have to Lipsync for his life. So I'm gonna look in. Not Funny, not funny. All right, let's go to some lesbians. I'm like with this funny, though, like okay, well, let's be approved and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals.

They will be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign up to our patreon page and yet all the episodes a full month in advance, along with any burnus episodes or specials that we end up doing. If you're after more of us. Alice host her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with the fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing outtakes. Interestingly, the original chronic hill of Scotland is spelled crony kill, which, I'm sad to report, is not the name of a death mon band, although chronic kills is the name of a trich streamer. Okay, so something. And I want to take this opportunity to point out the irony of law Lester's name and that she is lawless. Yeah, she's defying the natural Latta. No, you don't like that. Nothing. Also, she's from New Zealand, so maybe she is related to enough for Princess back. I'll see. Give me nothing. You broke. I dropped out. Yeah, right, well, when I was I was making jokes about seen a way princess and you were just staring at me dead pain, and I'm like, Oh God, bomb and that heart. Huh, Johann, to just cut this this one Auckland, and that was Aukland. Now I'm saying that the lawless is the last name of Lucy laws, who paid Zena Warrior Princess. Are In my head, cannon. They are related. Still dead bad nothing. It's got in the burnest part of the end. Sorry, I'm sure I'm sure lawless the non Zena one would hear this and go, Oh my God, we made joke about her Terry Pratcher was dead and cold answer the telephone in the first episode. This is it gets low of the bar, it's been said. Yeah, so the only real discrepancy in the story day is that, apparently in part mcbarne CK BURN.

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