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1 – Unseen Academicals

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Episode 1 of Unseen Academicals, discussing our titular Discworld novel, Unseen Academicals (2009), and using it to discuss Terry Pratchett's critical and academic reception, football/soccer, Academics, Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, Eddie McGuire, fashion, gender expression, RuPaul's Drag Race, the racial implications of orcs and their origins in J. R. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and Dungeons and Dragons, creation, corruption and definitely not psychoanalysis!

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts  

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com 

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod  

Hey, thanks for listening to run seeing academicals. Just a heads up that, as with a lot of podcast the sound quality on this first episode is suboptimal. We recorded the first half in Elsa's kitchen and it's very echo in. There's a lot of birds in the background and things, and then we end up rerecording the second half, but there were issues with the audio and I ended up having to stitch it together from like two different backup recordings. The sound quality on the next couple of episodes, including the Egal rights one that's at the moment, which is actually still taken from a backup recording, is a lot better and we'll have that sorted out soon, but just a heads up that I am aware and the rest of the episode's hopefully we'll sound a lot better. Anyway. I'm at the show world. Yeah, I'm Josh, I'm Alice. I'm really on seen academicals. I don't know if we should do that at the same time. Maybe I'll just say about yourself kind of. I'm I think what I'm doing this up consciously is is ripping off the wild stallions from the bill and Ted Movies, who seemed on Ted the band that saved the world. Yeah, time machine. There's a top like a tub, it's a firm, it's a doctor who. Yeah, okay, but they're they're like I'm bill and I'm turn. We are wild stallions and I'm sick. So I think that's what I'm going for that. But we haven't create anything. We can. We can try it again. We'll get better. The journey of the pocket. Definitely keeping this one now. No, well, I was going to say who are we, but I'm josh in your els. We just did that bit. So what are we? We are a discord podcast. That has to be a tribute where I'd seen academicals and this is a disco podcast, of which there are many. discribe podcast we discovered because when we first came up with the idea of doing this, I think there were two and a half and we checked in there were thirty that people would started up during the lockdown. Yet I think it was slowly before was November, two thousand and nineteen to February two thousand and twenty, like twenty disco podcast started. I haven't checked back in to see how many. Again, expinential. I was hoping they would just all Peter out at some point. But we'll see and I'm not too worried because I believe at one point I was subscribe to seven different reports graded race freecaps. That all just when I would say an episode. So it's fine. So yes, we're going to be recapping, or not recapping. We're going to be analyze, analyzing the spending three days doing research for Ahs, for point. Not Very like to say about ox coming up. But yes, where the unseen academicals, because I can't see us, as is an auditory medium and be we are both academics or aspiring academics. Alice, when you tell the people who are and what you do. I I am an aspiring academic. I will when I grow up, I will be a doctor in literature. I'm a PhD student and I'm studying the influence of Satan from Merton's pridus lost on the romantic satanic cuts and trying to define a new a HROLIC archetype. That's what I'm doing. That sounds way core than mine. Josh's already a Ductor, though. Well, I'm not. I don't think I am yet, but I will be by the time other people are hearing this. Probably hopefully, my something really goes wrong. I yes, I I just finished my writing my pachet thesis, which was on the animal ethics and vegetarianism in science fiction. Bit of overlap with the romantic stuff going into paryshellion things, but that's not important for this podcast. So we're going to be trying to take an academic angle, which isn't to say we're going to be farty about it, just I've spent three days researching the history of ORCs. So it's let's to do with the content. I guess we I am focusing on academic content, but sort of the approach we take of sort of doing intense research on these sort of things and hopefully we can add something to the conversation that way. These aren't going to be finished thoughts or explorations. I think they never are, but this is sort of an academic paper in process, really without I don't don't plan on making anything out of this and then publishing it afterwards. This is an excuse for me to do all the research and then put it out there without refining it and I have to edit it yet and it is the disclaimer that these are not fully finished, formulated thoughts. They're sort of works in process so that who we are and what we're going to be doing. What we're not going to be doing is going through all of the references and pointing out all the connections and things. That's already done on the discworld Wiki. I there's like four of them and I think it's the one that is called discworld rookie. We're not going to be on that. Well, we're going to be using those lists and and looking at things that we can go interesting and trying to take them further informed connections. But the books aren't a puzzle for us to UN gravel. So from there, when we talk a bit about our history with the discworld series, starting with you us, I read them in high school. I read them as fantasy books. And how long ago was high school? It's many. I am not twenty five, so not many. It's many, many enough that my friends are not procreating on purpose and have done so multiple time. so...

...that's very distressing. Multiple incidental same people, but we're a number of instances of yet accidental procreation and I think like that's book is kind of about topic. Now read them in high school, but as fantasy and I've got some of the jokes and knew they were kind of funny and quirky and sarcastic and full of Ponies, but most of it was just strick over my head. So re reading them has been a fun experience. It's like very watching Shrek, but on a much bigger I mean I like Shreck, but yeah, it's got is a lot better. Check us the best. Well, it's your history with this squad on, Josh. Yes, I think I'm a bigger disclord fan of the two of us. I have a cat named Pratchett, so that that's my trump card. Really. We both have animals called Shelley, though. So do we? Yeah, Ladies Lady Shelly. Oh, I did not know that. I thought she was just late. I told you this. Wee. Yeah, why out, okay, because nick want to call her sheeler and I said no, no, no, it's shelley. So the compromise was lady shelley, because showy. HMM, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yes, so, and I've read through the entire series multiple times. I think to two times at least, except for the last few year, and and three times from most of them. But I sort of am a dedicated fan from a distance I mean I'm looking at this this Pratchett conventions of things and I've never been, or don't really want to go to things like that. So my fandom has been personal and isolated until most things. This is true. Also was telling me about people earlier. HMM, judging by the the episode title, I'm seen academicals, which is also the title of the show, Made Nice. Another thing we're going to be doing so the differently, I guess, is rather than starting at the start of the series and going through them chronologically, we're going to be examining the books in sort of the the series within the series that are there. So I think we're the planets to start with the witcher series and then do the death series, the wizard series and finished with the watch and the AD morepox series, with the sort of miscellaneous ones strewn about in there where we feel like. But we're going to be starting with the book unseen academicals itself. Now, why always starting with unseen academicals? Well, because we've named the show after but it's maybe a strange place to start, because I don't think this is one of Tera Cratchett's best disco novels. Would you agree with that, Elise. I would agree with that. You would about I mean I have a ranked list where I think it is my fourth or fifth least favorite discworld book, although I haven't done a bit of research. Maybe maybe that might bump up. All right, maybe. Well, I'm only like one position. I might put it above the Australian I'm the lost continent, last continent or whatever it's called, but we'll see when we get to that in like five years, two years, I think I did the maths, we get to the end of the wizard series and two years maybe, if we do one of these a month, which is no ambitious but it is. I think it's a good overview of the series for a number of reasons. One of the reasons why it's not one of these best is it's kind of wrote. It's kind of discworld by numbers. So it sort of gives a good overview of where the series ends up what towards the end. This is one of the later books. Thirty seven out of forty one or forty two, I think it is something. It's forty five. So so, six hundred pages long. Yeah, they get longer, which is how fantasy authors work. To My sugrin and it also highlights some of the issues I have with the later discoorld novels or with overall discold novels, that we can sort of explore here and get a good idea of where the series go, so that when we go back to some of the earlier books we can know where we're going and think about it in the context of the series overall and in this book. I think from we found, especially me having spent three days doing intense research on this, there's a lot more going on this in this book. Then I thought, yeah, there is a lot more going on than I initially thought as well. Another reason why it's interesting to start with unseen academicals is this is the book where protect was diagnosed with elside US halfway through writing it. Obviously that's sort of a definitive part of his late life. Eventually dieddect choosing to any certain life. I guess that's some confirmed but yes, definitely becoming an advocate for euthanasia in later life. So this is a significant turning point in both the series and Pratchett's life. There is the documentary about his experiences with Al Shimers that was made during the writing of this book. I think you end up watching it. I cannot bring myself toward that homework. I will eventually watch it. Maybe we can really watch it in four years when we get to this book again. But yeah, I think that would just ruin my day, and I've been having some good days lately. So yeah, as someone who's pretty sensitive about watching things, I are have chosen to avoid that, which is maybe not doing due diligence, but hey, this is meant to be for fun. So, according to a New Scientist interview called fighting take the fantasy life by Sam Juda O'CONNELL, that was done in the lead up to the publication of this book. It says that project lost his ability to type as a result...

...of our shimers and had to dictate the rest of unseen academicals to us as system, who, you tell me, is blind. It was blind and he thought God made him blind. Here the dictate whose daughters was a whole thing, and it also so that's you know, this is the first time I books not being written directly by pressure himself and dictated. It says In't that same feature that so far Pratchett hasn't noticed anything, and he changes to his writing. But he has been approached by scientists who want to track the deterioration that they believe may occur, and Pratchett says that he likes vultures, but at least they have the decency to wait until the donkey has died. It's not fine if people want my cooperation on this. So he was resistant to that sort of idea. But something and it's maybe not a really tactful place to start, as I do think this is a point where, from here on, the discord books get worse. Are you familiar with the later discore books else? No, I think I read the first twenty. Twenty five, right, so that's half the series. Yeah, okay, twenty five. that a fief of time. You've wrote three for time. Yeah, I think that's the twenty five one, or maybe the last Alphab or somewhere in there. Wow, so all this? Yeah, the race stuff and the social stuff got some catching up to do. Yeah, okay, yeah, after this, I think this there's for more books. There's two of the tiffany aching ones and there's raising steam and snuff stuff is by far my least favorite discore book. That's the what of first mainline series one that comes after this and raising seems not much better, and I think that's a pretty generally held viewpoint about the series, that the last five or so books are that good. So we can't prove anything or showing connections, but it does seem like the diagnosis affected his writing. But let's get into the book itself. So this book is the discworld take on on football, or soccer as we would call it. I guess I keep calling it football because the book calls it football, but the ball, yeah, which is sort of like a sports ball thing. Right. I didn't much care for the footbaball joke, I mean the football jokes for the most part, where we gets their yes, but they oh. The book is a Stensi way about the wizards of Unseen University having to play a game of soccer, which just like if you're at a university and you know academics, just imagine them playing soccer and it gets funnier. You know, I hadn't done that and it does. It's doesn't it? Yeah, sorry, guys, which they are the wizards of Unseen University. They're forced into this match to keep their funding. That because of some ancient pack that doesn't really matter. Otherwise they won't have enough money to more than three meals a day. Understandable. The cheese board would deteriorate as well. So yeah, and so the more patrician mode than no uses them to reform the game, which seems a bit classes to me. You were saying. I would say probably is. Yes, but that's the premise for the book. What the book is actually about is it's a parody of Romeo and Juliet, about fashion and an ORC names and not who seeks worth so you can be incorporated into society, incorporated and assimilated a similar did. I think incorporated is actually I mean, I didn't do this deliberately, but I think maybe works well. We'll come back to incorporated at the end, I think, but that I think that's maybe a forty and slip, which again ties in to some of the things of the book. And none of this is really as fun and as exciting as it should be. No, what was the reception of the novel like? Contrary to our short or my sort of hypothesis that the books do get worse from here, it was met with a lot of reviews that emphasize that his alsimers hadn't deteriorated the writing at all. So I've just got a bit of a brief survey of some of the reviews that are just taken from the first page of Google results if you type in unseen academicals reviews. So these are sort of the popular reviews. It'd some La Cross but very rich. In The Guardian he says that despite his Alsheimer's Pratchett rights with the quote undimmed triumphant exuberance that Barber from den of Geek says that concerns about the effect of Alzheimers lasted for about the first half pages, after which he realized that unseen at Unseen academicals was going to continue the trend of Pratchett's novels actually getting better. This is despite Bob's mind wandering during some of the subplots which he's been a paragraph explain. So doesn't really very well for the books that came before if they're getting better. But the subplots about. Joshua S Hill from fantasy book review gave the book a ten out of Term Review even though he realized that it wasn't as good as night. Watched or nation and notice some unhappy grammatical errors and a few scenes that seemed unpolished, which perhaps stemmed from Pratchett's lack of direct control over the writing. And finally, Stuart Kelly from Scotland on Sunday, so that unseen academical shows no diminution of his talents nor softening of his acerbic anarchic humor, although in the opening paragraph Kelly says that unseen academicals could have been the first book so Terry Pratchett wrote. And then enter the paragraph by saying that is effictly amusing in the manner that only hard work and true craft can sustain. so He seems a bit confused himself, still reeling from unpolish. That's the worst review you can get. So I think we was talking about the specific not the story, the actual grammar, which might have been a printing...

...thing. But he was the review there was attributing that to the idea that he dictated the book. So all of these they're they're making a note of saying no, it's still good, while sort of acknowledging that it has impacted it. So I think that might have been drawn more from a desire of fans to defend it rather than an actual evaluation of the book itself, which we will get into now. So else you the academic angle aspect of this so stuck out to you well, I think also just because of the you we've had, because we're recording this at the end of two thousand and twenty, which was a hell whole year jen generally, but a university is it was was like walking through a minefield whole year because of the many bureaucratic changes that were happening throughout. So I think a lot of it just stood out to me because it was he's criticizing academia and all of its hang ups. So the book does start with the reveal that the dean of Unseen University has what's the word when you I was going to say jump ship, but turned betrayed. Yeah, well, that's how Brit color takes it. Yeah, but yes, he's jumped you to another university to be the arch chancel there, and that's a pretty big shake up of the Unseen University staff, which has been consistent, I think it's since sorcery, one of the early books. I's like eight foor six somewhere in there where originally all did they are chancels are they're getting killed off in each wizard book and replaced, and then red color comes in and the faculty is pretty consistent till this stage in the books. That's a pretty big shake off. What else jumped out to you about the academic well, the whole soffer aspect this idea that they have to have a game of soccer every hundred years or they won't get the amount of food that they get like. It's they say of themselves. We have to have traditions, but there's no reason for them to be doing any of this beyond the sake of tradition, which is much of what Kademia is about. It's like at the end when Glenda walks on the grass and as like suck it. It's mocking that idea that only only the dogs can walk on the grass. And the wizards are pretty resistant to the tradition. They don't want to play the game and they are coached into it by the prospect of less food. This is true. They're assessing over tradition but, as as you say, they then resist the tradition when it suits them. They I think there are some fun jokes in here about the sort of tradition the bureaucracy of universities generally. So my favorite, and this isn't in the fake jokes bit, but as a dog reflects the mood of its owner, so university reflects its arch chancellor. should be thoughts on that. I'm having a lot of things about right. I'm trying to unpact that dog thoughts are day don't as a dog reflects the mood of its owner, so university reflects its arch chancellor. So if you're angry at your dog on the time and you just keep kicking it, right, that's it's not like the university looks like they're like dogs. Look like they're own a pets. No, well, maybe maybe they like lady and I don't look like shelley so, which is a shame because she's the prettiest. I do like to flop around and be fed. So there's also a strange commentary on the obsession with money. So, as you say, the Dean leaves and then he sort of comes back to during the book and Rud Colly says, Oh, I thought you'd have a banquet every night where he's gone and he says, all, we have a limited budget, you know. is to the arts chancellor. That's a governmental grant thing, you see. And then the wizards fell silent. It was as it was as if a man had just told you his mother had died, which I find quite ironic because now we are so dependent on grants and scholarships and fellowships and a lot of yes, financial rearrangement at the university. So you're just your luking units on of the fact, I love. On the commentary, on the note of the tradition thing, why one note about sort of the academic mechanations of this is the scene of the arch chancelors hat, I fewer call this is the original art chancels had. Is Sort of a magical, conscious hat that soaked up all the knowledge of art. Chancelors. He has passed and Ridcli doesn't wear this because he has his own snas he had with a crossbower and a drugs compartment. But he tells that Nary that he does have the original our chancels hat, but he never liked wearing it because it grumbles all the time. Venar, he goes, I can talk and he says I just nags me all the time. But then Nara says will so the hat can think and speak. And this is obviously a parody of the sorting hat from Harry Potter, right and all. He says. Well, then you can't earn it, like if if this hat is conscious things, you can't earn it. So it's sort of painting the sorting hat as the sort of sorting hat slavery, which obviously plays into some of the because it just lives in Dumbledore's office and doesn't get to have a life of its own. Yeah, obviously ties into the nut narrative but yeah, also some maybe racial slavery connotations that come with that that we all will come back yeah, on the money thing as well, there's also that we are pure academics, Mr Stevens. We do not care for mere money, so we do now just scrabble around in the dirt. You're not so much of a...

...spot if he's thought about it. Just yes, it really stood. You're resonating with it more than your are. There are a few other bits. During the the commentary of the soccer match at the end there it is insisted that the commentator read out all of their qualifications after their name, but he never actually then gets to say anything because it's just like, you know, Alice cap state, yet masters, blah, blah, blah. I remember the the other bit where reads out everyone's credentials. Yeah, and I think like the subtext there is if you're just so focused on that so often you get nowhere and nothing happens. But maybe I was reading into it too much, but I don't know. I mean that's not really what happens. Right like he couldn't commentate effectively because I'm saying that it is a cliche. But sort of in modern universities no one uses their titles, except for me, thinking it's in a certain Australian thing not to maybe, yeah, but there is still that obsession over your qualifications. By other point film, this is about academic research itself. You you may remember. HEX has just discovered a new particle and they find out it travels faster than light and two directions at once. And then the other wizards are like, oh great, what's the point of this? And he says, well, nothing really. It just allows us to disprove this previous theory. So it's just like going around in circles academia. Yeah, and no, well, no, just the disproving things is useful. It is. But I like the jokes that and this what sort of bugger me like. I mean, at this point we're sort of getting bogged down in our academic life and I don't know how the latable this is to Reis. It is the last one. But something we have to do with every progress review and everything at everything you have to do, is the first question is like, well, what uses your recession? I'm looking at vegetarian and science fiction, so their postability of my research isn't that obvious. But they answer is because it's interesting, because I found it interesting, I thought some other people might find it interesting and from experience people have found it interesting. There are people interested in what I'm doing and I've ended up looking at things like moon colonization and you went reports about global warming and thinks. So by pulling on threads you end up places that you don't expect. So sort of leads us into the academic treatment of Pratchett himself, which is something else in doing this is despite Pratchett's huge provasive popularity, I mean he's one of the most successful authors ever, there hasn't been a whole lot of academic work done on him, which is very surprising. Obviously there's a lot of there's the wiki that has always references labels book. As far as yeah, academic studies, has only two major books that I can find about Pratchett. Both are by Andrew and Butler, who sort of a science fiction fantasy scholar. So there's the pocket essential guide to Terry Pratchett from two thousand and one and then then edited a collection of conference papers called Terry Pratchett guilty of literature from two thousand. Now there are there are other articles that have been written about Pratchett, not as many as you think. There are the articles that discuss Pratchett, which will get into. But so in doing this podcast I also sort of want to contribute to that body of academia about someone who, in one of his few academic references in Edward James's notes on science fiction, by twenty at twenty century from one thousand nine hundred and ninety four. So what's that? That's twenty five years, twenty six years ago now. Me Like I think ten twelve discworld books in says that fourteen percent of old book sales were fantasy and science fiction and that ten percent of all the fantasy books sold in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four were by Terry Pratchett. So he's someone who has this huge cultural influence that academia has largely ignored. You think it's because he mocks them merciless well, yeah, okay, I enjoy it, but maybe others. That's a good maybe. But HM, I don't know. I'm not sure, but the earliest academic paper on Pratchet was was by Butler. It's called Terry Pratchett and the comedic bill duns from an buildings, from buildings, from I've build done from them sounds like shit bead. Or doesn't? Buildings, Roman, buildings, ROMM. Well, now I have to say all these fancy technical journal words. Email US please start. And that was published in the General Foundation, which you can read some of my work in some of the more recent issues. Yes, the first episode. I have a note that. Naturally, this is from the summer of one thousand nine hundred and ninety six. And analyzers. projets work in terms of will. Since you know how to say it, why don't need tell the people what are buildings? It's kind of like a coming of age novel that follows. It follows a character basically almost from both or early childhood all the way through. Dickens is someone who really developed this. It's now very central system of modern fantasy and heroes journey books. But the idea is that there is there is growth, there is moral development, you become a fully formed person who is a lined things by the end of it and then normally you die. You done the rider or the character. If you finish the place buildings, Romans can be a bit like that. I'M...

...gonna say bill done from and deal with it. Good grief. Yes, it's the novel of Education. Is The etymology of the word so coming of age novel and Butler uses he applies it to pratchet's works and says of the early describe model novels up to one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, was it it? Or Ninety six? I think this one was the other one's nightful of the early discold knows. This is what practice doing. All these books are about people growing up. I think equal rights is the obvious one, which is going to be the next book we do. I don't know if the first two with rincewind don't really seem to fit this slee wall because it's Rincewin halfway developed is, yeah, already a mess and if I'm thinking back to some of the early ones, that's which is abroad and things like that. So I don't know. We will revisit this article in more detail when we go through those books. But I did want to ask do you think this theory applies through unseen academicals? kind of and kind of not, because it's not part of it's not in order, like you get what happened to not when he was younger, and then it sort of starts off. For the fact if it's the idea of education. And yes, because he grows as a person and becomes fully formed and goes off into the world. You could look at it that way, but not strictly speaking, I wouldn't say I think not fits the thing. And also, trev right, it's sort of it's not his coming of age, but it's his becoming amazing, becoming a person. Yeah, becoming his own man. I guess you could call it a becoming novel, which is the buildings, am right, the and something like a qualifier. Might want to add that. My clarified this a bit. Is that Butler says that pratchet uses a specific form of the build owners room. An yeah, which in which the protagonist emerges along with the world and reflects the historical emotions of the world itself. He is no longer within an epoch but on the boarder between into epochs, as the transition point from one to the other. This transition is accomplished in him and through him. He is forced to become a new, unprecedented type of human being. Now there's a lot of big, unnecessary words going on there. There's a lot of emphasis on human being. Is probably something that doesn't really apply to a story about it all coming of age, but this idea that the hearer is involved in and reflects social change, I think that definitely applies to yeah. But, like I mean, from yet it's a vote in Romm and and this is the part of I think, more the late discworld novels than the early ones of bottles examining. Is it use that you're saying you haven't really read the second part of the series as much, but this is a pattern, this idea of a new species getting incorporated into the city. A lot of the late book snuff is about Goblins. Is the vampires, the vampire ones, is the troll ones. Through the watch novels. So yes, this is the characters reflecting the social change that's going on in discworld. And I'm more pork that's going to be about as technical and high for Luten as we're going together. I can't promise, but I want to avoid German terms like build unswer man, which I'm only using and pronouncing incorrectly because I've the relevance of it being the the establishing piece of Pratchett scholarship. So in that sense, you know, I want this to be aware of democratizing academia, making it more accessible to other people, because I have a theory that more people would be interested in this stuff if it wasn't locked up at institutions that you had to have special permission to access. But mostly I just wanted to use democratizing academia so that I could point out the footnote where it says that in t Moore Palk they propose murde of governance by a choice of respectable members of the community who would promise not to give themselves airs or portray the Public Trust of every turn, which was instantly the subject of Music Hall jokes all over the city. So clearly, yes, they're the people have a more pop don't think too much of democracy. So we're going to do a segment now before we get into analyze in some of the themes of the book that I'm just calling our favorite jokes. So else, what was your favorite joke in unseen? academically it's free multiple that all right, so be this is my favorite. Honorable Nations. All right, I think my favorite is still the my fair lady joke. So I'm going to explain. I do. All right. So the segment, Glenda and Julia are on a mode of transport on their way home from worker at Remember, which is a controlling bus. It's the Trolleybus, only buss, a troll. Yeah, it is upon on. Yeah, you followed. So they're on that and Glenda is kind of like Juliet's mentor and, you know, teaching her the ways of the world, and she's saying, Oh, you would attract a lot better dudes if you just tried to speak a little bit better. And because Juliet says, watch out, a lot call them dudes anyway. She says, with your looks, you good snagger man, who thinks, who thinks about more than beer and footy? Just speak with a little more class here. You don't have to sound like and then she's interrupted by the troll asking my fair lady, the other being you don't have to sound all my fair lady, you don't have to sound incredibly posh. And this is a joke on the idea of like the my fair lady. Well, my fair...

...lady being a Mahn fifty six, play that tation of pig Mali. Yeah, yeah, I chuckled. Yes, and sure, Berny shot less pretty woman from the sty more popular patients. So that's that's just a good reference there. Do you want to do? Should I do my favorite one and then we go to on our mentions, or do you want to let your favorite one's going to be a while. My two are very lias. All Right, my honorable mentions are. What kind of mine would see something like that in a pair of innocent letters? Says the lecturer in recent Womans. Yeah, I get the joke. He said ruins. I've just always pronounced it like that. I think professor mcgonagall does that and Harry Potter, and it's just like rooms. Ruins has buildings that have fallen down. Sound the same to me. Rooms rudes I'm not. I don't want to make an issure about this. It's that is the drug again. Yeah, the joke doesn't work. Actually just it sounds the same. This is your building. Someone speaking of good puns. Go on then. So my favorite joke, which comes is very early in the book, is when they're introducing glender and they talk about her child and Teddy Bear. Mr Wobble and pressure brats that traditionally, in the lexicon of papers, such a bear should have only one eye, but as the result of a childhood era lenders sign, he has three and it is more enlightened than the average beer. Now, at first I only thought the stroke was brilliant because of it's a reference to Yogi bear, who is clever than the average beer. But then it also occurred to me that he is more enlightened because he has three eyes. Yes, yes, a third eye, and that Yogi bear. It is Yogi. Yeah, that we got a Yogi. So there's lay as many like you need our open. You foat out to get that joke. Not Seriously, and I'm scared of drugs. Sorry, you said you had. So some of my honorable mentions for best jokes. I just like the idea of electrology. It was the study of it. It's associated surrounding. What's The electrol of you of your bed like? Well, I was gonna ask what's the best bed you've ever slept him? Our family friends in York have one that just feels like you're being held by soft things, feathers. I guess it's a proper feather bed, right, and you just get in and lost a feather. Do not. For a long time that just the quills used to go through a Protomo. It's horrible. Often. Yeah, we have a qualm attress now. That would have made is right well as yes, cool. It's the brand cool mattress. I don't know a sponsor of yet. We should get one natural sponsorships and podcasts are their banks all? Yeah, yeah, no, I've kindly got a year, maybe two years ago now, my partner Maddie and I invested in a king sized bed, and good decision. Before that they've been sleeping in just a double which wasn't big enough, and before that at my share house, we're living in the east, to sleep together in the single bed. I've done that week, that for like three and a half years and I don't know how it was Maddie, just kind of like cheese, cheese or shot. I'd hang over the edge. But now in the Kingdom of people. Well, hopefully so. That's what. Yeah, electrology, which I did look into the etymology of and I can't work it out because left or electro is to do with sighs and amber. Apparently it's where Electra electrolysis from count way? I don't know, because lecture comes from the Gare the Latin to read. So I'm not really sure. I couldn't work out what electrology is, but the idea tick off my fancy. Something I didn't really appreciate about the the humor and unseen academicals was the I guess what we would call sizes store phanophobic jokes. There's a lot of but that one there's a lot. Sorry, you know. Yeah, apparently the technical term is cut Cucka morphobia from the great cacker, meaning ugly and more phemenning sheet, which is a bit fatil. Yeah, that's ugly, ugly shape, but that word, that's from like database of fears. That's not in the days. So I think if it's only oly to, it's not real well common usage. But I think I'd prefer that ugly shape wasn't the technical term. As a man of carriage myself, a lot of these are at the expense of the unseen university housekeeper, Miss Whitlower, and then sometimes glendas. Yeah, she's picked out for not being conventionally attractive compared with Julia through the wizards. Wait to see, yes, but there's all. There's also a connection to some of the football stuff that we're going to start talking about briefly here. So when you're going to ask Trevor Or, who ate all the pies? Apparently this is a reference to an actual football chant which is used to torn out of shape players, which goes, who ate all the pious? Who Ate all the pies, you fat bastard, you fat bastard, you ate all the pies. Sounding family dinner at my...

...house, Nice roundhouse. Kick them all. I have a video. I'm going to play it now and if it doesn't pick up on the microphone I'll just edited in later that this is the this is the champ being used in a video on youtube from two thousand and eight. Okay, so apparently I know only done cur three wikipedia research into this. I did confirm the sources, but I do want to go deep up, but apparently, allegedly, this was first song in honor of William Henry, Fatty Folky, I don't know if that's how you pronounce it. Last name. It was a Sheffield United Goalkeeper from eighteen ninety four thousand, nine hundred and ten and waited around a hundred fifty two kilogoing. You want the gold keeper again. Chris should be the goalkeeper. Gold keepers have to cry. If he got a hundred fifty kilo. He's staying on one side of the neck. Just fake it out and go to the other side and he can't get back, then I feel like Chris is better an attack. A hundred fifty kills is not big enough to block an entire goal like six hundred and fifty kilo. Gold keeps want to sacrifice Chris. Anyway, we gotta move on. We according to the wiki thing two thousand and nineteen article from last year, I pointed out the tune that the Chinese sun to, which is called knees up, Mother Brown, which I did listen to, sounds nothing like the chance are. Who knows. is believed to have originated in ninety one thousand, nineteen and eighteen to eight years after you were tired. So it's perhaps in aprocer full story. He also only weighed around eighty one kilos at the start of his playing career. So Hmm. Yes, it's maybe an apostles to sing in football, but I was that was a interesting football time. Another football reference that that is perhaps more relevant to the the rest of the book is apparently, according to the discworld Wiki that has all the references list on it, the banana throwing incident where they throw the banana into the field to distract the library. and WHO's the Orangutan? Seems like it's just a joke about at him being in a ring time, but apparently this is a reference to a longstanding racist tradition in suffer of throwing mananas and chatting and calling black football players monkeys. Now this will time later to some things, but this is something we still see today. Right in Australian real wiles football. There's a very famous recent incident from two thousand and thirteen where the football player Adam goods was called an ephe by one of the the fans of the game. And then one of the the famous football club presidents and and commentators, Eddie McGuire that same week suggested that good should help promote the musical King Kong because of, quote, you know, the whole eighth thing. So this still goes on and Adam goods has become sort of a representative off racial issues in AFL. Actually read yesterday that Eddie McGuire, who was not recrimmanded for these comments at all because he was, quote, punished himself enough. He's finally retiring from the bullywood presidency. Yes, they voluntarily, though. So at the guy. He's a call of course he's Collingwood, yeah, but also he's just he's someone who's had these kind of things going on the public eye and hasn't had to answer for them. So that still goes on. But yes, there's supprisingly little football in the book. It sort of the premise. They ignore it for the bulk of the book and then there's a game at the end of Slore. Yeah, and it and against all star was boring. It's just not been cool. Yeah, we've also got the Romeo and Juliet parody, but I really wish they sort of focused more on the love story at Leo the Shakespearean par which so I don't have much to add to the analysis of Rome and joy do. I've just sort of regretting that he didn't lean into that more. But Alice, you had some thoughts. I think some of the the courts and the illusions, and again you can find this on the wiki though, are interesting because they focus on the idea of like tribalism and Shakespeare. So he rifts on the idea of in the epigraph of Romeo and Juliet and his two teams, two families, both alike, indignity. Instead it's the two teams alike in villany tribalism. And then later on, and we'll probably have to come back to this, but not he's been todd he's an ORC and means nothing and he says like Shylock, he's like, yes, you are right, I'm an ork. But doesn't it all have? I Sasn't an all have is so going back to Shylock and bag of Venice and the idea of like Jews, a humans too. So I think a lot of the Shakespeare references are about again overcoming the idea of tribalism. I think I've read in one of the interviews that they the line about the two teams in villainy was sort of what came to him as the parody of Romeo and Juliet in terms of football. Is what sparked this book, just seems reading. At the he was sort of torn matery between pots and to really fully commit to either Dod Dod Dod Dod. We're back. We're back. We're back because the first time we try to record this I lost momentum hardcore. I also fellas like we were both struggle. Was An experiment.

But here we're back with season podcasts and it's been the what, three four months now? It was last year we recorded. Yeah, it was December last year at seeing how the start up the March two thousand and twenty one. So it's been a while. And in between we've recorded the episodes on my equal rights and weird sisters. But a bit of experience. We did more, but it's just because weird sister stoop as, while weird scissors was also a year in three separate sessions of the spools visits. Yeah, and I can't remember what happened the other time. I think we just got tired on it. Yeah, called it. I was like, yeah, it was a great call. which we should have done this first time we were back that it's been four months and we're going to talk about ORCS. But before that we have an important update, because I am the first part. When we talked about the football, we talked about Mr Eddie McGuire, basist football president. Extra now now, are you aware of the Eddie McGuire update? I don't follow him. No, but this was like headline news for about a week, so I think it's a couple of weeks ago now. But then, when we were preparing to rerecord this, I opened up my computer and that they news headline was that Collingwood, the football club that a McGuire is the president. Off they receive the report, and last December I which found the club was guilty of distinct and egregious systematic racism and called for sweeping structural change. Now that the headlines though, that they got this report in December, didn't comment about it until I think was the d of February, where someone linked it to the media and they were like, Oh, we were gonna say something right. Yeah. So, in a speech likened to trump's four seasons total landscaping press conference, Eddie McGuire declared a historic and proud day for the Collingwood football club. Now, this was meant to be his final years as club president. So he got the start of the year he announced, which now that don't thinking if he got this report in December and said in January this is going to be my last year. Yeah, maybe there was a connection there, but he don'nounced the style the year that this is he's going to see out the year and then he was going to sit down as Fred he's been president of like ten years or something. And there and then he did this thing. was like no, I'm not stepping now. I'm definitely seen that my last years as the president at being. But after a week of ever on cracking the shit's he has now stepped down. Can't president by it. So that's that's four months worth of football updates. But yeah, our first actual topic that we wanted to get to is fashion. Looking good. Feel the looking good? Yes, because I found the the fashion subplot to be a far deeper and more interesting story than the the football subplot. Is it because you're into roupall and not football? Well, yes, that definitely had a bearing, but just there was more going on the football thing, like there is no football. There's one game, there's one day at the end that goes on for a while, but like everything in between and all the development of not and everything is all through through the Vermeo and Juliet story, with Trev and glender tried and Juliet. There's just more going on and I thought a more as we're going to discuss a more nuanced engagement, rather like the football stuff is literally just just just football like slogans and there's no real really commentary on football. Yeah, yeah, it seems like a very superficial engagement where it's just dressing up the wizards of football players and playing a game. There's no real yeah, where as I thought with the fashion stuff, it didn't go as because I wanted it to, but it went a bit deeper, but at the same time it's also like a Cinderella Party. Yeah, which again talks to how I'm seen academicals. Is a bit of a retread because, as I say countless times throughout the weird sisters podcast, we're going to talk about Cinderella again when we get to which is abroad, because that's where pradhre like. That book is very specifically a parody of Cinderella. So to be sort of rehashing that storyline here I think does speak to this book being a lesser in truth in the series. And you do get like an explicit reference to Mbrella in which is abroad here. So pratchet's acknowledging it but still sort of forging ahead with repeating himself. Right. And the fashion stuff is also, I guess, the overall and our role theme that ties football and the fashion stuff together is the exploration of class. So you have the guest gentrifying of the football stuff and then with the fashion you have the idea of a Juliet that you know she's a lower class lady and she becomes this high class Dean models or Bate's the Cinderella Story. Yeah, is he? Is He commenting on modern fame? Like Billy Irish makes music in a bedroom becomes famous just some BBE makes youtube videos want to. I don't think serve. I know it's like where. I don't think it's a specific thing like that because it's timmy is before that. But also I don't think like like finding the unfound, the beauty in the slum's kind of idea. That's it forever on Cinderella. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's doing that and I think he's linking at it explicitly to like ideas of beauty standards right here, with the fashion connection, which is maybe something different, the idea that Juliet, who's meant to be the most attractive person in the book or whatever. It's kind of interesting that when you talk about attractive people being successful, there's this idea that she can't because she's...

...for off a lot of class of A. People are surprised, but at the same time then you have the contrast with the Glender, who's meant to be unattractive or conventionally are attractive, is that she's smarter and intelligent but can't be successful. I don't know, I'm just sort of spiraling at the moment. Yea, seems like he's engaging with these things but not really saying anything about them. Yeah, right. But I think is more substantial is how this applies to the dwarfs, which this is an ongoing thing through the later pression novels. But yeah, there's a part of the book where it says one thing you had to remember when dealing with dwarves was a while. They share the same world as you did. Metaphorically. They thought of it as if it were upside down. Only the richest and most influential dwarves lived in the deepest caverns. For a dwarf, a Penthouse in the center of the sea would be some kind of slum. A DWARF ON THE UP and up was really on his uppers, and upper class dwarfs will world class. A dwarf who was rich, healthy and had respect and his own right farm justifiably felt at rock bottom and was held in lowest team. So this is this is a very obvious inversion of class, but I think it's more ubstantial because of the work projects donehouse swear with the dwarfs in in the other novels, which you're not really that familiar with. The is, having not read the series, not far enough in head working on it. Yeah, well, their the watch novels, which is well asked to seeing the team show. Yeah, that's the last series, men. It is we're literally not going to get to apt for like three and a half years. But I'm saying academicals is part of what Andrew Roman in his two thousand fourteen book fantasy, politics, Personal Deity, calls pratchets dwarf and Ark, which consists of feet of clay. The fifth album, at the fifth alephone Thud, unseen academicals and raising steam. I think. I think there's some dwarf stuff in the other books as well, but they all contain subplots around the gender expression of dwarves. Yeah, particularly related to the watch officer, cheery little bottom, by unsaying academicals. What initially starts as individual expression and liberation has been industrialized so that the new dwarf woman can now choose from Horn helmets, beautiful war axes engraved with flowers, steel boots six inches high, breastplates so beautifully have a to take them into battle would be an act of artistic vandalism. Is that not a problem in it of itself, though? Yeah, why? Like, if you're a dwarfin woman and you want to go into battle, but now there's this like the best ones, the best axes that everyone wants, that you know you're meant to want, you shouldn't take into battle because you'll ruin it. Is that not, then, some sort of regression of feminism? Like, let's get the big axes. Maybe patchet is trying to position himself next to that, against that, by saying that it's an authentic and also that Juliet is a lower class like he's attempting a subversion of it. But the same time, when meant to like feel for Julia, because there's sort of is it's Quinta Right, is her? Yeah, her mental yeah, she looks down on it because she's doesn't have that opportunity and she goes, well, I'm intelligence, so I don't have anything to do with fashion, and then, by the end of the book, like my mental like cleandom are but there is that flip where it's like no, Juliet's wants and needs are worthwhile and being a fashion model is as worthy as being a good cook or being whatever. I just don't think he goes far enough. I think you sort of gestures at all these things but sort of leaves it all up in the air. Yeah, I said, whereas Raymond argues that Pratchett reverses the Women's Liberation Movement of the S and surnies and that humorously reversed, these woven females are fighting for the right to perform their gender, to adopt the symbols of femininity. Rather than burning their brows, they and menaphorically melting down their breastplates in order to make something a little lighter and with adjustable straps. Okay, so in this world they're being impressed because I've got to wear the heavy arm going to go in battle, and then melting those down to create ladder armor with more straps. Yes, and maybe, or maybe he's talking more about the books before unseen academicals here, because the early parts of this are cheery. Starts Wearing allistick and and explicitly expressing her femininity through things like makeup and fashion, whereas now in unseen academicals we're hitting the point where fashion now flips around and comes to incorporate things like axes and things. So there's some retention of ideas of Mass Scorne and feminine signifiers that I think Pratchett is rather than blending so much he is sort of making fun that fashion is silly because it makes male things into female things or whatever. But also I don't think this is so much a reversal as this is just third way feminism right. This isn't he's not undoing second wave women's liberation. He's this is jude of the poler. Yeah, because in her nighteen idiot article performative acts and Gender Constitution, which is the foundational, or at least transitional article of third way feminism, jus Butler observes that gender is in no way a stable identity or a lucust of agency from which various acts proceed. Rather, it is an identity tenuously constituted in time, and identity instituted through a stylized repetition of acts, instituted through the stylization of the body, and must be understood as the Munday and way in which bodily gestures, movements and enactments of various kinds constitute the illusion of an inviting gender itself, which is a lot...

...of words to say that, Jedder is performative. Yeah, the idea that I mean. I don't want to explain all the waves of feminism. Do you want to explain all the ways of feminism? False. So, in a nutshell, my understanding is that your first way feminism is the the women's suffrage movement. Right, yes, so, just just rights, rights, equal rights. That's next. Sorry, yeah, and then so that that is putting giving men and were in the same social opportunity. Yeah, my understanding of second way of Feminism Sexual, sexual, but also this idea of socially imposed Jenda. Right, this is the bowls whole thing that women are born women, not because they have biology. That makes the remember, because the moment people will see that they had that biology, they impose a whole lot of expectations and things that that funnel them into performing the way a woman is expected to perform. Yeah, conditioning from them. Yeah. So the record, the recognition that feminility is not in hate, that it is socially imposed men. Third way feminism goes beyond that and go as well. You can push back against that by performing your gender in a different way. There is such thing as fourth and fifth wave femism and there's the criticism that it's only sort of white, you know, goodle class. Well, that's another part of yeah, third wave stuff is making it intersectional. Yep, and things, but broadly that's your idea. So here in Noun saying academicals, we're seeing this performance of rather than the dwarves being forced to wear battle armor and express themselves as mail, that they've hit second wave when they start putting on makeup, and I know I am putting on makeup and performing the Feminine Sexuality, but that is still divided into there are feminine signifiers masculine signifiers, right, whereas now they're blending, they're taking the armor and making it feminine. Yeah, cool. So, but also says as a given temple duration, within the entire performance acts of gender are shared experience and a collective action. So this reminded me of the critical Utopian stuff that I keep writing about, which I now sent you the book to read you on, because you're you're halfway through woman, on the edge of time, with them very sny pages from the end, baby, yeah, and and you're liking it. They love it. So this is why I got in Tom Moyland. He's a big deal in Utopian and sens fiction. Scholarship calls the critical utopias, and this is based around these books. I won't over to that now, but the point of these are that this is a pushback against Utopia as an idea of an endpoint, some idealizedtic goal that has to be achieved, and a process that is continually being reevaluated, rather gold coast being moved. You can never achieve utopia, you have to keep working for it. So it's critical in that sense and that it criticizes the ideology. But he also says that it is critical in terms of a critical mass, and this is part of it. I wasn't really on board with this idea for a while, but I'm coming around to it. Is that traditionally, in your turn in your utopia, like it's part of this, like the one great savior, normally a smart white guy who can see how everything should work better and writes a book a goes. He's that we should also live it. If on me everyone lived how I said yes, I'm Moreland says you can't just have one person tell everyone how to live and then it changes. Right, you have to. You won't have a political revolution that is led by one person. Yeah, it doesn't matter if cheer a little. Bottom is just wearing a make up. That's good for her, but it doesn't change society. Right, whereas once you reach a critical mass of the enough people doing this, I see, but then it affects the culture of Solf, of women are burning their bras, burning their breast place. Yeah, so, yeah, we're seeing this shift from individual liberation in US an academic ors to a collective cultural revolution. Yep, okay, burning breastplates or guild them? M You know I guilty breathplate. Well, if I'm going to go into battle, I want a breastplate. So either melt it down a rug going to battle, or so let's burn your breastplates and smelt your breastplate. Yeah, so mainland suggest that project dwarfs may be read alongside Butler in terms of how they suggest the fragility of gender. If Jenner must be constantly performed and I must also be continued and constantly remade, Cherry, in the main chooses what could be regarded as uncontroversial mark as a feminine De Mascara, Lipstick, dresses, high heels, a change of name to Cherry and so on. Yet can appointed to this is that, over and over again we are told that Cherry refuses to shave off her beard or dispense with her around lie helmet to her. They are not masculine markers, but rather markers of dwarfishness. There was one thing to declare that you were female, but quite unthinkable to declare that you weren't a dwarf. You also have a madame there solon awn I, who says that she's a dwarf, who says that as sons technically a mine, and that means that under dwarfloor she is the King of the mine and that in her mind, her rules go. And since she is the king, she declares that she is a queen. We see Dwarf or bending and creaking but not being broken. Yeah, the gender semifires are being challenged in and overturned through the cultural mass. But the dwarf stuff, it's not that you're born a dwawf or whatever, it's that you perform in a certain way. So here we have jender being flipped that she is a queen rather than a king, but still off stuff. Yes, so using that that...

...dwarf social and position of well, the king is in charge, like she said, she treats us one has a mind. What's perhaps it trying to do here? Well, this is where I think it is interesting and complex, that things don't just flipping. Then they're different. Yeah, different cultural signifiers, any positions. I've been used to subvert other ones. Yeah, and maybe he's just saying that your culture is more important than the agenda. Yeah, you know, you can wear whatever you want, but know where you come from. Yeah, which in a way could be seen as conservative, like I don't particularly care for my personal culture. Going to say you could keep going the next step and say what you identify as is how you perform, and he's okay with that. So for you all and advised wolves. But he's not saying that. It's also imposing. Now, now what fifth ways? And it is. Yeah, if you don't have any dwarves in discol claiming they're not dwarves, hmm, where you do have captain Carrott, who is, you know, biologically human but was raised by dwarves and says, well, I am a dwarf because he performs dwarf culture, because he feels an identification with that. You don't have the opposite of breaking out of Dwarf and us, but you do, you'd have the example with carrot going the other way. So project still saying all these things can be liable. So, yeah, dwarf or bends and creeps but is not broken. That's why Juliett still has to wear a false beard. She's modeling Dwarf Fashion Right Socias upon her. Yeah, and and it's played unseen academicals as humorous, humorous, but also like it's empowering to her or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean Raymond claims that it's a calful reminder that nurtions are femininity and masculinity a contingent and cultured and culturally determined. Of course, it's hard to think of beards being not masculine. And this is a fantasy extreme. Yet experted to the extreme certainly sensitizes us to the implications of real instances of gender wearing, such as David Beckham wearing a surround or cook being performing on MTV in a baby doll dress, to take two celebrated examples of many. Drag. Now also Tom Holland and the UNBRELL. Yeah, Tom Holland in the unrelevant. I think he goes a bit further than David Beckham wearing a sourrong. It's I'm wrong, I surprise wrong. I guess we're all a lot. But also I don't think they're feminine. Yeah, like men. We're so wrong with yeah, different cultures. Yeah, com Holland and leather, though it's very masculine. It's fun. I mean I take issue with the idea that it's an extreme to think of women with beards and I think yeah, but it is interesting because I'm going to go on a Ruphole's drag race ran here. Well, here everyone. Well, I will try and keep them to a minimum, but since we are talking about it, says you're a loud, fashion and Jender by so repoles drag race, which has mainstreamed drag for better or worst, that this is a whole thing which I am not qualified to talk about, but I mean they just had the currently, as we're recording this, we're up to season thirteen, where they have their first trans can testine, or not their first Transcontessa, but their first openly biological female to male transfers, which is called and they might win. This is got mick we're talking about. But also this is after twelve seasons and five seasons and all stars of Ruphole saying that Trans People will never be allowed on the show because they have a biological advantage and it's like doping in the Olympics. This has been a whole thing, right, and this is what I say. I'm a qualified to talk about this, but people who have been on the show have come on criticize the show for being rather conservative. Yeah, it's portrayal drag like it's a very it's been a mainstream hit because, especially in the later seasons, it has become a straight, friendly, mainstream sort of take on drag whereas we rrepall back in the s used to be a gender bendery sort of alternative punk drag queen. This is a whole thing. There's not this podcast about. But before that we had dragon race hollot and they had a beard a queen for the first time. I show now they've done challenges where people have wore worn beards and stuff. The thing that the cycle and drag races. Someone does it and it's a big controversy, like Alaska built dressed as men and were criticized for it and like you can't be men. This is about female allusion. And then the next series they have a dress as a man challenged to honor those people that did that. So that's that's the cycle. So they've had people wear beards on the runway and things, but this we had someone with a beard and they were a bearded queen and this is as dragular, which is the alternative sort of drag rassing that that had three big queens on its first season and stuff and beat. The queens have been around in drag culture forever, but this is the first time this mainstream series that are to been on. And this was madam madness was their name, and their whole story line was about the beard and that the beard was holding their Glamma back and they asked them to shave the beard and said, they said, like we want to see what you look like without the beard, like show some versatility. Well, and this is another trouble drag race that there are these queens that come on with a very specific trademark and then, like there was one cream called...

Max who had gray hair and they said he just looked. We want to see a different hair color from you, and then she will blond hair and they send her home. This is like this is a tripe that as soon as the Queens do the thing that they've been asked to do, they gets in her right. A man, man is shaved, a beer that came out of sad you went. You look great, said our sir. The storyline there was about how getting rid of the beard major look more for identity as well. Sorry, this is to say that drag race, well, being transgressive, is rather conservative, but also that there are still these gender expectations within these cultures and things. So red and argues that, through Juliet's being, project is more than simply remind us that normal is not the same as natural or fixed, because he's treatment is also a demonstration of the process by which notions are normal, masculinity and femininity can change, which is great and I do think there's something gone on there. But I also think pressure is just making fun of cross dressing. Yeah, as you said, like this is he's doing this for last. The idea that an attractive lady would have to wear a beard is a comedic moment. It's not really how we can impose the queer reading on it and sort of salvage it. But when you look at Pratchett and what we do of authorial intent, I agree. So I can said all that. What do we make of Peppe? If you remember Papais, the agent, the while he's like they assistant in the salon. Yeah, he's Gender Queer, I guess we would call it now. Yeah, and Madam says peppe is peppe and there's no changing him, as it were, or her labels are such unhelpful things. I feel the transgeneration, like champ would champion that. Put that on side, yes, but practually is having a laugh. Yeah, and there's also this imposition that, well, he is, he's a hymn. Yeah, because later Glenna encounters him and observes that he and you had to remember that old were and you had to remember that old work works. You're a minute. Would go for it, he and you fuck. Yeah, the reason he and you had to remember that old walls were he unless they asserted otherwise. Had, when he spoke, a voice that sounded like a darkest and most expensive type of dark chocolate, possibly smoked, and she was a sheet. Glenda was sure of it. The chocolate was just too rich and fruity. Right. So there we have a couple things going on. We have the idea that gender is related to biological sex. It's also kind of sexuality. Everyone is assumed straight on till you are certain otherwise, until you come out, you don't come out as straight. Same with your agender. People are looking at you. There's also I mean these are sort of cultural from and signifiers. Right, chocolate, rich, fruity, like these are as of yeah, so what I'm sort of getting here is that project sort of painting peppercing as a facade the like. It's not. This isn't his authentic self, as people would say, that he is performing as this fashion Easter when he's in the store, because that's how fashion people are expected to perform. Or is aim maybe? Yeah, when he's in the alley, you have any cigarette after the thing is not hanging out and and I think practicing bad is through pepe really is. Again this idea of the authenticity of your dwarf wood is that pepper puts on performance in the palm, but who you really is is this person. I don't think he's saying that it's bad that pepper is putting on this facide, but I do think he's saying the authentic peppe is the one in the alley, in the one in the salone is inauthentic, which kind of undermines the gender stuff. So he's sort of treats gender expression as a costume almost, rather than it's not an expression, it's a costume you put on, which is sort of third fingism but not really. So, yeah, authenticity is the big deal and you can just be v you on. You don't have to put something on right but also that involves putting something on to be yourself. Yeah, where's Practet, sort of saying you can wear whatever you want, but you are really a dwarf who smokes in Alley's. Yeah, you also have Trans Green and pink football scuff, which prompts not to ask, isn't football or rough man's game, whereas pink is rather a female color, and he later observes. Well, he comes to the realization that pink per claims an almost belligerent masculinity, saying as it does, I am so masculine I can afford to tempt you to question it, giving me the opportunity to proclaim it in new by doing violence to you in response. Now, this is a parody of like football poligans who are perform a very massive end where, you know, salmon pop collar tops. If I can be stereotypical for a second, so I get that they are about of the joke, but also this relies on the stereotypes of pink is Feminine Violences is masculine. Good. Yeah, so again Pratchett is asserting a inauthentic performance of Jenda sinifiers and even as sort of an essentialist male or female divide. Here, am I reading too much into this? No, I think it's there. And just as the last thing to sort of my evidence for Pratchett maybe not being the most delicate with the gender expression stuff is that when Glenda crowd surfs, she is disappointed that she is not even groped even once, which is kind of verse. And again, putting it in a context in terms of newspaper headlines Today was did you say that? Now? I didn't. What's this? One Um, a girl came out recently in started an...

...anonymous sort of petition going around the Synday schools. Like I have experienced this will speak up. It's anonymous and it just exploded and is now the rest of US fail as welcome about sexual assault right from young men and it's something like one in two. Now they were gone. And girls and they're late teens, of forty percent chance of experiencing sexual song somewhere. So yeah, that doesn't aid. Well. Yeah, I mean this is Pratchett saying that, you know, she was wanted. She wanted to be grown and also glad as the other joke is there. The glinder is someone attractive that no one would grow home willingly. Not Great. Don't know. His Treatment of glind out, even though he's champion. Here is the sensible, intelligent one, guys. Yeah, gross. All right, are we ready for four thousand words on ORCS? Am I ever? This coffee in the French will be fine, right. Yeah, this book, I mean, hawks come from talking and practets. Engagement with alks comes from talking, because in a Guardian Book Club article on Unseen Academicals, project explains that nut was the seed of the book and that ever since he first were talking at age thirteen, he was worried about the ORCS, noticing that they were totally and the horrevoicably bad, that it was a flat given, there was no possibility of redemption for an ORC, and Project Defense Hulkin saying we are all prisoners in the aspect of our time. But now I think people have learned not to think that any race or culture is naturally or your riginably bad. And indeed in the new scientists interview, I started earlier months ago now, but I did started early because I've been going through the transcript in the New Scientist interview. I saw the earlier. It describes discworld as being like Lord of the rigs, like Lord of the Rings. Five hundred years on with humans, we're will stampires and goblins living side by side semi peacefully. So this is what pressures going for. It's going to be more than five humlready used though. Sorry, you're Okon. Well, when you think about somewhere old and every soil, Morellians everything, we have dealing with thousands already and they haven't progressed very far. YEA, if they do say the Lord of the Rings from the time of the Lord of the ring, see they're saying five front of years till works in the well. Can ORCs ever be truly rehabilitated? We will get there in three thousand yells. Society do it. You Go. I'm like talking. Society moving fast, like well, you've got to have first place. And there is a the rings. We out of Lord of the Rings. Like women came by there. It did occur to me that there are no women. Well, but there are not that U s getting elves. Yes, that now it's not great as it now. See a prussing is openly engaging with him revising tokens, archetypes, and we have explicit references to talking throughout all the books. But in nuancing, academics as well, where the wizards have discovered the third breakfast talkings the hot second breakfast. So I like the third breakfast. Breakfasts is a deal as someone who skips breakfast every day because I cannot eat until about two in the afternoon, unless it's a left over dinner. Now I can smash that Shit, but I guess I'm not really on board with three breakfast. But I do like the idea of discovering the another reference to talking is the battle of ORCD, which is is around develop Hous d R. Yeah, so the Battle of walked was the last name battle on which the race no of ORCs were deployed or used in unseen academicals. So the discwork Wiki says that orkd is likely illution to the round word battle of walks drift in the hanglows or rules one thousand eight hundred and seventy nine h which was used as a model in Fantasy Rada Mary Gentle story, the Battle of ORCs drift on which the aucs encounter of theory race, not unlike the feels from discworld. I think that's Bull Shit. I think it's a reference to talk Tep Hounds, day hound steep so yeah, unless the other alm state. There's no reference to rocks drifting talking's letters that I could find. Why I did what I've written that up, though, is the reference to marry gentle's the battle of books drift, because the image of not changed the Anvil for seven years as an illusion to marry gentle's book grunts. This is the sympathetic or it's not even sthetic. This is battle. Start from the ORCS perspective. Rather runs are the ORCS? Yes, it's the red shirts of works. Yeah, but gentle is mentioned as part of the dedication to God's guards because she is part of the HP Lovecraft Holiday Fund Club, which we talked about the next episode, which were the Group of conference friends that Terry Pratject was a part of, which include the sal switch and rid a, M J Harrison and Neil game and who's also mentioned in the same dedication right in God's guard. So this is something that one of Pratchett's friends had already done in the in the s s walk thing, and then he's referencing of the just an interesting connection. What's really interesting to me about this, in the age would talking, is that before discovering he is an ORC, not is disguised, or at least referred to as a Goblin. And this is interesting because in the hobbit talking uses the word God one in place of Orc in his opening authors Maria to the hobby and something explains that Orca is not English word and occurs in one or two places, made by or two places in the Hobbit, but is usually translated God one or hog go one for the larger crimes. Or is the hobbits form of the name given at that time to these creatures. So prajuiced to...

...that thing where he's saying I am what a mere translator of this historical documents of the hobbit language. So or come from Tokhom, the Tobben says, the term or comes from hobbit language. Right. So are letting his translation guide the normanclature of the Lord of the ringing stop and reveals that he originally took the word from the word or Pius, a Latin combination for hell or death and the dead body, which he translates as the haunting shapes of hell in his translation of Baila Wolf. Cool, yeah, it is cool, it is cool. So talking's translated passage that he's referring to is a description of Grendel. Do you want to do this one? Do you want to do the bail or try Grendel? I'm happy one inhabited long while the troll kinds home, for the maker had prescribed him with the race of pain, that bloodshed, for that pain so able the eternal Lord avenged. No joy had he is that violent deed, but God drove him for that crime. Far from mankind of him, all evil broods were born, ogres and Goblins and haunting shapes of hell and the giants to the longtime ward with God, the Orcinus that he is translated. There's a bit where he says organs and Goblins and haunting shapes of house and the haunting shapes of hell is orpen us, since what he's seeing ork. But then what? We also have them as being separate, being, and I'm reading that as there are Olga Ogres, there are Goblins, and then there is another thing called walking us. Or Yeah, I think all things haunting shapes other things. And Yeah, that all I mean. It could be read as obers and goblins and haunting shapes of how our or hand sort of one things. But now, because he's said the giant so so so, yeah, he's listening off different things. So here we have in its original form. GOBLINS are a stick from ORCS. They're different creatures. Yeah, we're going to flip back and forth on this side. You're a lot over the next like half hour. So in its original, for we have a distinction between Goblins in the shapes of hell at a works, but in the Hobbit goblins and hawks are equated. As we saw from the author's note. The only appearance of the word ork in the original one thousand nine hundred and thirty seven edition of the Hobbit is when get off, tells Billberg. Before you could get around mark wood in the north, you would be right among the slopes of the gray mountains and they are simply stiff with joblins. Yes, they are transit of copied. That are quite right. They are Goblins, hobgoblins and ORCs of the worst description. So I mean that's specifically the Bayowolf. They can goblins, Hob goblins and ORCS. Yeah, as separate things. So just saying, Talpo, it hasn't been consistent. He's not being consistent now, but I think he's claiming is yeah, it would. I sk an instance of ox was added in one Thousan nine hundred and fifty one second edition of the Hobbit, when bilbow discuss a passage through the misty mountains as a bit low for Goblins, at least for the big ones. They're got get out and not a can they go on. But the passage is a bit low for Godlines, at least for the big ones, not knowing that even the big ones, the the ORCs of the mountains, go along at great speed, stute floor, with their heads almost would their sorry, with their hands almost on the ground. So here go ONS and oks of the same thing. Yeah, there's also the sword or churist or the Goblin clever and the ancient tongue of Gondolin, which is made for the Goblin wars. That's the sort that the dark queen, the Dwarf King Thorne, uses in Muhammit and, Likelis, also uses it in hobband movies. So through the naming of that, by having all Christ equated with yet Goblin, Goblin cleer, so all can Goblin, they're equated as well. So in the hobbit he's saying ox, God on the same thing, but then we get to a lot of the rings. Correct once more. Josh is correct, and in the Lord of the Rings novels, Talking Switches Terminology from God one to ORC. Yeah, in fact, the word God one occurs less than ten times throughout the whole series, and it's only in the first two books. Did you count that or was that scholarship? A bit of US was? I read that and then confronted you. Just control that? Yeah, searchable predias. Of Really, I did not really, allies, I'm definitely drew. Already read of the lawns at some point, but not while there are still other books. What I have not read? Amen. Yeah, so many of Talken's earlier letters also continue to equate goblins as a translation of ORC. And he writes in a letter to the historian Hugh Broman in one thousand nine hundred and fifty four, so this is after the fellowship the Rings Come Out, but and are around the time the two chails is about to be published. Yeah, he writes the Burgan's preference for gobls to ORCs involves large question had a matter of taste and perhaps historical pedantry on Tolkien's part. He says, personally, I prefer ORCS, since these creatures are not goblins, not even the Goblins of George McDonald, which they do to some extent resemble. He is confused. You this George Mcdonald? He's referring to a story called the princess and the golden from one thousand eight hundred and seventy two. Do you know this one? No, eighteen seventy two, come on. So I just did a I didn't read this, but I did a quick wikipedia on it. It's about a boy who rescues a princess who's kidnapped by Goblins and goes into the...

Goblin mines and stamps on the goblins feet. Except the queen has like stone shoes or something. And this reminded me because something that I didn't say now unseen academicals Podcast, is esque does this to the Dungeon Dimension Monster. She kicks him in the show. And and also this is just this is the story of the the first tiffany aching with the way freeman right like her brother's kidnapped. By the third round she does into the thing. I mean, this is a fairytale, archetype Charpe. So I'm not saying it's a reference to George McDonald. But there's a lot of overlap going on here. Earlier you have more and more prominently you have Christina Rosettie's gold market from yeos eight hundred and sixty two, which is the one I'm familiar in, where the goblins are traders, well, tricks to rapists. Yeah, I would describe him as that actor getting go its church journeys to ropus. So yeah, so more about goblins in more detail. Maybe we will read this McDonald Bok when we get to snuff, which is one of the last ones we do, so for years we can talk about Goblins of more. He also complicates things in the two towels by introducing a third term, which is a Kai. Now these this is generally understood as there they're the big ORCS, it's the hot goblins in the hobbit right, but there are some complexities. So in chapter three of the two towers, which is titled the Archai Marian, Pip and the hobbits are taking captive by the Rochia after Barroomer's death at the end of the fellship of the ring. And this chapter also contains, for so almost half of the series, ten instances of the word God. One MM. So that confused. But what is he using them as adjective type? So throughout this chapter there are Kai are distinguished from the other small by Goblins. ORCA is also capitalized, while Goblin is not. So that's implined. That all because of property and will. God One is only a generalized term. In this chapter it's the ORCs talking amongst themselves. HMM. So that Rakai are using Goblin as a prejudiced term to talk to the to label the small olks with us, so that our Chai leader Uglik, who slew Barrow Mere and whose name applies ugly, declares we are the fighting or Chai. We are the servants of Saram on the wires, the white hand that gives us man's flesh to eat. That's your sort of self definition of who the or a Chi are. Right. Party finishes out by saying I am a black. I have spoken. Sorry, predates the Mandalorian buyer. But we also have like some racial coding slipping through already here, with the illusions to cannibalism and being controlled by a white hand. And this is interesting because the ORCS also fear being captured in the eaten by the human pursuers so tasty. So yeah, I mean I don't really have time to unpack the association between cannibalism and embracing the colonial racism and things. But it's also been used here as so it's been used here toccode the hawks as as savage, quote unquote, and barbarous. But it's also been used the ORCS are saying that. Well, the men who were chasing US say they're going to eat us. So it's it is acknowledging that. It's just used as a general other room, that your enemies will eat you. Yeah, but then the ORCS are happy. That's our and gives them flesh to eat. So it's kind of kind of strange there. And the canibalism thing is continued when Pippin is given some bread and a strip of raw dried flesh by the ORCS, and he only eats the bread, being famish but not yet so famished as to eat flesh flung to him by an ORC, the flesh of he did not guess what creature like. You go on a vegetarian round. I was waiting. That's what the smile was fun. Okay, it's a vegetarian. Well, I mean, because I don't think that when we when we say cannibalism, I think the UK's eat their enemies. They don't eat themselves. It's a question of what is most maybe the ORCS would eat themselves if they were fighting in also side. But he's just assuming that it's all human meat, like or Hobbit meat, I guess. I mean it's impliant. It's meant to be Hob at me. But the idea here is it's more that the fleshes are clean because it's origin that's been given to him by by the ox there for it must be cannibalistic and unclean, rather than if he was at home in the Shire having, you know, sely like breakfast. Yeah, so I don't know, I don't really have a full thought on that, but it jumped out to me. Be there works also thrown to eat the human writers for showing them and their horses. So lots of Cani wism stuff going on there. But yeah, throughout this chapter of block clashes with the smaller or grish knack, who is frequently described as a Goblin. Throughout the passage. I think three times he's referred to a Golblin. So that's almost a third of the entire uses of Goblin are used as a INTERORC put down. As the hobbits observe, O black is a larger Black Hawk, while Rishnak is a short, crooked legged creature very broad long arms that hung almost to the ground. So we are getting the divide that if there aren't two racial groups, there are two cultural groups. There are Kai who are warla can and serve Siromon, whereas there's the Goblin hawks who are I guess they are acquaded to the goblins from the hobbit right. These are different. But yes, we've been talking a lot here. are leading to the sort of racial coding of ORCs. So I guess we want to make that a bit more explicit. So in her two thousand and Sixteen Book Habits of Whiteness, Helen Young, who we were talking about earlier. She's an Australian critic. She worked a Deacon, actually does a lot of work on the Middle Ages,...

...but also video game stuff. She observes that humanity and its allies, commonly owls and dwarfs in the High Fan O, the sup worlds in which walks pere, are coded as white. And indeed in there Chai chapter, the human rages are described as white skins twice. Yeah, by implication. The humans are white, the hawks are non white. Right as young further observe as, the ORCS and Lord of the rings are somatically different to the white self of the fellowship. They are part of a Millennium Old Western cultural discourse that others the east and its people and the embodiment of racial logics and stereotypes and the perceived threat of the segnation. And indeed that's what I've put I don't know what to say. I say indeed, indeed, in a one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight letter to Forest Ja Akerman, talking asks of Mortein Zimmerman's unfilmed treatment of the Lord of the Rings Novels. You know asks. Why does he put beaks and feathers on the ORCS? ORC is not a form of ORCS, a UKS, which is poffins. The ORCS are definitely stated to be corruptions of the human form seen in elds and men. They are were squat broad, flatnosed, cellar skinned, with wide mouths and slam eyes. In fact, degraded and repulsive versions of the to Europeans least lovely Mongol types. Yea. So, if not in the text, at least Medita actually talking, being very explicit with his racial coding of the ORCs and the comparison to the pure white European standard, which isn't surprising if you know anything about a Lord of the Rings Bood here it is. So young argues that there are four main tropes attached to ORCS, which are all racial. So they're commonly othered by their skin color. They're extreme aggressiveness in a rationality being portrayed, prutive, disorganized cultures and homelands which are outside the borders of which are outside the borders of civilization. Some issues with the president of that, but let's keep going on. These tropes, she said, says, resonate with Anti Black Races, stereotypes which developed partially in the eighteen and nineteen centuries to justify colonialism and slavery, as we've been saying. So to these sterofipes touched nut. Do you think? Is he aggressive? There are moments when he's angry. He's not a rational or. He's definitely not a rational rather whop one of his car. So I don't think that one applies. I mean he's moments of aggressiveness. So he's not primitive, although he is pushed to live in the well, the God with the done. Okay, so this is my okay, you go that. Well, this is my issue with youngest phrasing. There the she's using saying the extreme aggressiveness in a Rashia and rationalities an inherently racial thing, and borders of civilization and primitive these are all subjective of living. If she's referring to a white Europeans and it herself, yeah, set anything. So if we take that as a non European culture or a culture outside, I mean I don't think it's a stretch to say that I'm more pokin than then. The pratchet culture is European. Right, it's Middle English, as what I think. If if we go through them, her minds are outside the waters of civilization. Yes, he comes from over the world, which he's German, ironically. Is he from a primitive or disorganized culture? We don't ever find out much about the actual the whole starts have culturally. Yes, they are created sore. That one kind of they were the most organized culture because they were made for a specific person put to its or that one's kind of hard. I don't think he's extremely aggressive and a rational yeah, he's clearly not so. But the more we have his skin color, do you remember? well, color, not skins, right, right. So, yes, he is distinguished by his great skin, except on the cover of the book, Yes, where he is portrayed as white, with all the other white humans in the book. Capital pair. Problematic that. Yes, he he portrays not as at least it looks to me. He has he's so know, you looking rage Crayon. So, yeah, that that's subtlent version. There is sort of undone in the marketing of the book, even though we got some problems there. Of all the sympathetic depictions of or statue examines young how he's that only practete does not present aggression as an inherent tendency of ORCS. That now has the strength and capacity for violence associated with ORCs in every work in which they appear, but chooses not to use it in destructive ways. What do you make of that? It doesn't well, she's saying that he here has the physical believe of ox but he chooses not to use it in their ways. I guess we're my sort of issue. My sticking point on that is that that is saying that ORCs have an inherent aggressiveness, or because she is praying it as a choice, that he has to choose not to be violent, not that he just isn't violent. Yeah, he's saying he's having to fight his inner violence to control it. An equivalent will be like saying that men have to fight not to rape or something. Right, we are choosing not to be aggressive, to yes, actually assault people or whatever, rather than will be just start because we don't want to. Yeah, I think this. I think, and I think this plays out of the book, that nut is inherently violent and pressure is saying he is valuable because he chooses to contain his violence and fit into this European white society. But then inheritance,...

...that is the judgment that people that are outside that society are inherently by need to conform to our standards or I think it's a problem. So we don't get very far. Yet he doesn't get very far in trying to yeah, and this is sort of my problem with the later books that we were talking about, that like the goblins and stuff, are only worth being out of society once it's discovered they can do. Are The people on the watcher only proved that they can be part of the society if they can be good watchman. It's not just that these people are good anyway. Not is only I only has worth, and will get to this a little bit later, but he only has worth because he can conform to our standards. Yeah, so back to the other realism. We're back to the otherberalism, which is, yes, more apparent in the disco books then I remembered. Yeah, so the vitual creding thing, particularly with regard to the skin color, is seeing outside of talking as well as there. Observes, the first major appearance of books outside in the worth was in the original nineteen and seventy four version of dungeons and dragons, which was fired up quickly by advanced dunceons and dragons in one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven. Yes, so the works in the advanced dundeons and dragons module had dark green skin and prominent faces and jaws which reflected earlier DD descriptions, while they are black platid or dreadlocks here, and heavily muscled hypermassin bodies, along with the iconography of their armor and weapons, created them as savage, tribal and not wide. Young says that these works bear considerable resemblance to the Iraqui are of Peter Jackson's at the ringstroms. So and, in contectionally speaking, dugs and dragons by looking like the development of popcorn for fantasy tropes, probably the next step after Lord them. Yeah, so will the rance comes up with the idea. But we're like visually, because a lot of the rings of it's you're imagining right, yes, yes, mine, whereas these Donson dragons modules, I think, yeah, they came with the illustrations, I'm pretty sure. Yes, yes, and the modern ones do now anyway. So this is where you're getting the actual visual signifiers of works that are implied in talking, made explicit in Dundrac. But that wasn't anything between. It was. That's probably something. But these are the easy, biggest, but that's because that's what fifty four fifty five is Lord of the Rings, and there certainly four stunts and the Dragon. So there's definitely something in between. I can go looking either way. Yeah, popular image of work, so we have these days is the image of Works and all the rings gones. Also in world warcraft view that you have played world of warcraft. I'm looking at you. That's not picked up for the microphone. I avoid it. But more just I spent my entire team years playing Solo Games of D wo Two and if we'd had an internet connection that could have handled world warcraft, I probably would have got in right Australia. So I avoided that by our she infrastructure. Yes, the ORCs of world warcraft arm had green skin when there yeah games first relays, although in the war of world of warcraft this was later we abaled to be due to an exposure to evil energies that turn the ORCS and actually brown skin, into a sickly green. This is kind of saying it's not racial stereotask because they got used actually, but also they were just frown people, not pray. No, no, no. Young also notes that comparisons to animals, particularly pigs and apes, is comments almost all disitions of dungeons and dragons up to the present, saying that the use of animal in imagery is generally to humanizing, but the common use of apes is a metaphor, specifically references calling of discourses of blackness, and this again comes from talking yes or no, or high chapter where you have the argument between the Hawks and the Rakai. They say swine, is it? How do you folgllect being called swine by the MC Raak? is of a dirty little wizard. It's AWKWISHTA, I want. So yeah, they're putting down there the Goblin hawks as as being swine in pig like water. They say, curse you, you're as bad as the other rapple. The maggots and the apes are seur on stock tower. No good trying to challenge with them. They just squeal and bolt. So humans are referred to as bugs, as maggots or, in one instance, filthy horseboys. See, I'm not sure about the the animal associations with not because we're saying this comes more from the visual thing, which maybe he's taking cues from the dungeons of dragon things. But in the book, and what young points to as his only sort of animalistic as is is he has retractable clause. This ties into our conversation about the aggression, I guess. Yeah, but it was him because, yes, he's close pop out when he's threatened. Yeah, has to like force them back him. So I guess that is instinctual. This, I mean this is the zoo. Everyone has their adaptive responses. Yes, right, but no one else in the books. Well, yes, that's a pretty yes, according to dungeons and dragons, three point her I don't know if that's the one one. This is just the one young talks about. But according to Dungeons, dragons, three ORCs look like primitive humans with gray skin, cause hair, stooped postures, low foreheads and pausing faces with prominent lower canines and have a good pint here. So this to me, this describes not, yeah, prachats doing. What is Pratchett's not doing this? The artist is Paul Herbie. Is Poor Sam mouth that I don't know if NU to over described in the book as having. No, it's just as he is. And he skin movies highted...

...and sure, which is another he's not like a big burly dude. so He's a fellow. He's non threatening as well, like it's not we're talking about there. And he's very polite. So that adds that. It's not just all the polites, like a cultural thing, very true. Through just been cultivated to not be threatening. Yeah, he doesn't have the big like just the imminent violence that the giant ORCs of talking. There were a high half where they're just imposing. He's very nonthreatened by his shortest stature, which is interesting. Young also sites the Asian American critic Su j Kim, who criticizes the racial depiction of ORCs in the Peter Jackson films, who had brown faces. While we're high, we're tall, black and muscular. The long course here that resembled drake box. Similar responses prompted video game times for Lor the ring sons to feature a white skinned ORCs and in later hobbit film and the or C leader as are or the Pale ORC. It just referred to but never seen. In the novels. He was included as well, and and his relentless pursuit of thorn and the dwarves is framed as a personal vendetta which is far more significant to him than being the will of sound. Although, as young says, the move does nothing to undercut the racial logics or change conventional representation of ORCS. However, it does suggest the inherent evil is insufficient as a motivating force in the contemporary narratives. So in his two thousand and twenty article, Terry Pratt has thought experiments about the body. The Hungarian Academic Peter Haddre, I use Pratchett, emphasizes bodily differences as to finding features of species, so not race, species. He points out that immigrant vampires are prone to behavior that is socially unacceptable in their new environment, mainly killing people and drinking their blood, and this behavior is not an issue of cultural conditioning but something inseparable from the vampire's body. Right, vampires need to drink blood. We will talk way more about this when to get to Carpa Jungul, which is actually coming up soon, not in a year and about six months. But this applies to not as well. Right, this is the cluse. Thing is that it's not a cultural condition. He doesn't need to be taught here. We don't kill people with our cause. He's called pop out as a biological response. Yeah, that he then has to suppress, like he's been used as an analogy, but the analogy doesn't work because he's an embodiment of a character that has been designed to embody these racial stereotypes. So you can't sulvert the racial stereotypes when the character is the racial stereotaxis. Yeah, which is tolking's probably not practic, shids, but there's a limit to how far these inversions can go. Ye. So I mean how drew says in response to these that you have to remember the book. It's not mentalogy, it's just a thought experiment. You can't do one one to one. But I think, yes, it exposes the limitations of fantasy. Right. It's also leads us to the creation vessels corruption conversation. So the issue of the opps creation was actually a major concern for Culkin's Christian contemporaries. So not one hundred and fifty four letter to Nammy Mitchison, who we talked about next episode, but because I now said we have to be talked about her in the last episode after put her here. She she's that the author that Acial Lolla going work ripping off. Yeah, so, yeah, and she'd been proof reading Lord of the Rings and wrote to talking with a number of questions, including the issue of ORCS. Mitchison wrote ORCs, I know I clearly stated, to be of any particular origin, but since they are servants of the dark power and later of Sarah on, neither of him, pood or would produce living things, they must be corruptions, noting that they also are a good deal to the God on tradition. So she's pointing out the connections there. But this, this is a Christian thing, right, because she has a book called trouble lightly, which starts off really fucking cool, because it's about a girl who gets lost in the woods and raised by dragons. Right, so that that is gool fine Yah, and she call its treasure because the dragon nature. Yeah, she's like swire. Later comes straight up again when I say like memoirs of space. Woman sort of has a lot of stuff that's in left hand of darkness. This is as a twenty years before. I'd see right, right, Lady Dragon. So that's really cool. That's the first part of the work. Then a prince comes from rex risk is here, takes a back of thing out age is becomes this one over the dragons. She gets turned into a Christian creature like the BFG. I know, awesome beat she what happens the VI g? Well, she gets taken from the orphanage to go and the over the bit of GE and it turns out that's really cool. And then like, she gets taken back in his less cool. Yeah, and Al saw the movie. Like when I was a Kiden, I'll never around the books. I don't know the the book deeply upset me because I was like, what if some reaching a room like but this is this is the Christian idea that only God has the power to create. Yes, so similar Peter Hastings, who was the manager of a Catholic bookshop in Hosford. He wrotes frizing his enthusiasm for the Lord of the Rings, but was concerned about true bet statement that the dark Lord created the trolls in the ORCS. He suggests that evil wasn't capable of creating anything and argued that even if it could create its creatures, could not have a tendency to do good, even a very small one. Gosh, he's Catholics are pidantic. It's almost like the dogmatic so talking. Drafted or apply the hastings that same year, although I'm not sure whether he sent it on her. But in this draft he says, I think I agree about the creation by evil, but you are more free with the word creation than I am. Truvia does not say that the dark Lord created the roles and ox. He says he made them. You know that's a significant difference,...

...big different. He was a linguist. So okay, talking, he says he made them in counterfeit of certain creatures pretty existing. Right, so he's saying me, he they did make them, but the imitations of things that are existing not. But that means God created evil things. This is this, this is the same thing issue again. Yes, and talking says, there is to me a wide gulf between the two statements. Sorrow. Why? The truth is, statement could have possibly been true. It is not true. Actually, the ORCS, who are fundamentally a race of rational incarnate creatures, they're horribly corrupted, if no more so the many men to be met today. So here he's going back and forth again. He's like, they are created, but they were made. They weren't created, they made, but they're also corrupted. So talking, Coun't decide what he thinks. Yeah, he also adds that suffering, an experience, and possibly the ring itself gave further more insile, pointing out that in the Lord of the Rings, you will read his words to Sam that the shadow that bread the ORCS can only mock. It cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the oxid only ruin them and twisted them. In the legends of the older days it is suggested that the day was subjugated and corrupted some of the earliest elves before they had ever heard of the gods, let alone of God. So He's been very specific and pedantic here. So he's saying they just did in some form and then they were corrupted by some other force. And this is something he details. They creation the X in the similar reillion, right, which he'd written at the time, but it wasn't published until after topping's death. In some topen does nineteen seventy one similarly gets pulished in on thousand nine hundred and seventy seven S. toppin's referring his arguments into a book he's written that no one else has read. Right. So in the the section of the coming of the elves and the captivity of milk, or in similar reillion, it says, but there is unhappy ones who were ensnared by milk. or WHO's the first Arc Lord little? Isn't an a certainty? Yeah, this is, how true, by the wise of Eresia, that all those of the Quandy who came into the hands and milk are. These are fancy words for owls. Is the old races and else. But all those who came into the hands of Melcohol were put there in prison and by slower arts of cruelty, were corrupted and enslaved and dust did melkoll bread, the he is race of ORCs, and Envy and mockery of the elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. Is it maybe was, the vilest deed of milk call and the most hateful to a Lubatar's WHO's they've got middle their threat. So he's saying. They're not corruptions of of Goblins, m the corruptions of elves, which will talk more about elves in laws place. Yeah, okay, this this is actually the evidence for his distinction between maid and created. Right. They weren't born nothing. He got owls which God had made and twisted them. Well, this is the problem that that still suggests, we're going back to the first letter. It's still suggests that an evil force exists in the world that twisted them, which, if God can't create evil and God created the world, how to the evil force exist in the world? It's we're back to that again, but like he can't get around that. Fundamentally, no, but I mean moving beyond that if we can, right. Isn't this what Satan does, like he turns the Angels Against God? Yes and no. Yes, in the sense that his rtoric is very corrupting. So he turns, he turns to be as of Love and heaven and he says something like all the narrators or something like he pierced his breast or something with his words. But there's also like the word chose use for the angels, like his, a third of heavens, those chose to follow saying. So it's kind of ambiguous, right. He's convincing round to his cause. A bit of both. Like me, he makes a deliberately ambiguous is, like how evil was Satan? Did he was he alone, the one who corrupted a third of Heaven's host, or was it that a third of Heaven's host also recognize that there's something up with God? But they weren't. It's the political mass thing again. And when they get there, their speeches do indicate, many of the speeches do indicate that they agree with Satan. It's just it's unclear what the source of the disagreement is whether or not Satan cadits that. Either way, what they'd have been just shifting alne and they're not becoming another being. Right. Is that correct? No, it's because again, he when he's in here, when he's in Hell and he wakes up, it says something of his former shape. He still retained aspect his former essence and he hadn't fully fallen yet. But it's the same thing. Did God? Did God forget that aspect of Satan? Was that already inherent in Satan, that God created Satan? So it's certainly becomes mindboggling and provide itsime result. Yeah, like there's a line when Satan goes off to come to earth or eat and the other rebel angels are in wondering they as lost. I don't know, I'm just seeing the same thing here. Obviously right, because I was going to say this distinguishing is they just come over a certain side, but they're still the same people, whereas they throw twisted. Yeah, yeah, the fall, they do fall. It's a process. So at the start in Hell, Satan still retains some, some of his former glory, but the and it talks about, I think it's smaller. I'll check this and we can put in the footnotes. Says, you know, it was an easy fall, so we should be able to easily rise up. And it's platonic physics, because, if you're the yessense of angels is the is the highest, the lightest, so they should just be able to float back up. And...

...what he doesn't recognize is that they have become fallen. So they now and how, at the very bottom, the heaviest, they can't start easily rise back up, makes them a demon, not an angel. Is They have lost this essence? Yeah, they have fallen, the capital left away from God. They still going to tain their powers, like they can either sextra assume and all of these things. But if I was looking at them, what, they look the same. MMM, physically. Well, they can still shapeshift. And what is the original flats are probably yeah, so satin shaped shifts are. And as the snake, he's a little Angel Cherub, whereas auks and outs, they were like two visual, very different things to look that I mean the way they, rebel ads, are presented in how when they're having their counsel, is ugly and Gross, right the Texi also the blind this is obviously the ideas that Talkin's playing with, right. Yeah, so, yeah, although I'm polished at the time, talking appeals to these passages from the similar early and is like it, the hastings and he however, it's that the ORCs would be more about that's another name from alcohol, the other same person. They also would be more about the greatest sins, abuses of his highest privilege. I. Would Be Creatures Begotten of sin and naturally bad. So he does say that the ORCS aren't inherently evil, although he clarifies that. He nearly wrote irredeemably bad. But that would be going too far. Calvinism, MMM, don't explain what calvinism. It's good, great, what I'm monst okay, calvinism is the is the belief in predestination. Essentially, when you are born, whether you go to hell or Heaven's already been established. There's absolutely nothing you can do about it. There's no free will, right. So well, I guess this isn't calvinism then, because he's saying they are born naturally bad, that they can be redeeming. I nearly very, irredeemably bad. That's where I said Caldism okay, naturally bad is interesting though as well, though, because it's his suggests you don't have any free will to be good, like you're just naturally bad. Well, it's it's more original sin, right. Yeah, that's where I was going before as well, like humans are born after the fall, but then there's all this debate about how they bond. Are they born naturally bad or they born that? This is the calvinism. I but if you accept the your born naturally bad, Oh yeah, you have two options. Either you're born bad and you always are bad, or you're born bad and through your deeds, carrodine yourself. That is the opposite of Calvinism, coolsism really. Yeah, went at the pulses. Yeah, so, yeah, I think talking's preaching a Catholic, which he is, and we're back okay, because Lewis was like hey, you want to come out here to the Catholic side, and he was like yeah, man, just talking, do anything stuff, because I you've told me serious Louis ISM built back and knows. He's Milton. He's it like he's in. He's a middle English dude, so he knows it's not real. You know, he hasn't really written anything I'm not on. That was Louis has so yeah, talking says he really wrote irredeemably bad. But I would be going too far, because by accepting or tolerating there making necessary to the actual existence. Even walks would become part of this world which is God's in ultimately good. But he says, I have represented at least the OX has pre existing real beings on her. The Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power and remodeling and corrupting them. Not Making that to now, he said, not making first, before we made the dark. That is in the Simmar. Really in. Okay, he's just a bad old feared the gold. Still, anyway, doesn't that sound? Or refersing with an army a werewolves? It's Radish Shit, Oh not me, of Fo Wolves, bupies and talking. Says that God would tolerate that. Seems no worse theology than a toleration of the calculated to humanizing of men by tyrants that goes on today. You're waiting. It's just a lot of things, stuff that know no talking you secretly of the Devil's body and we remember called yeah, Rom podcast. He's just saying that if men could be bad, then ox can be bad, which I mean he's sort of saying that even their walks. He's taking these bets here, but he's saying that talks are made inherently sinful. Yeah, but it's through their choices whether they're good or bad. One. He's saying it's not. We don't see. She don't get any falks, trying to make not bad decision, not more. He just kind of he washes over this biking Pratchett in pratchet. Yes, so you though he doesn't represent this. He is saying Mr Nutt is a possibility within a lord of the universe. Right. In a later in an unset draft of letter to Rodeba, who's an English altar and scholar who later moved to Australia became electro classics at Newcastle University. I just like to throw those in there when I found out these people are Australian, because I'm like, Oh, we are close scholars. Yeah, talking where it's I suppose. The Difference Between this myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this. In Christianity, the fall of man is subsequent to and a consequence of the fall of the angels. A rebellion of created free will at a higher level than man, but it is not clearly held an in many variations not held at all. But this affected the world in its nature. Evil was brought from outside by say, in this myth, the rebellion of created free will precedes creation of the world, which had in it subcreatively introduced evil, rebellions discordant elements of its own nature already. This is just saying that. Yes, the just saying, saying introduced evil, not that the world was created with evil and it. God didn't create people. God created the world. Saying introduced Eve all my reading that right, yes, right. Well, yeah, the other is because he fell of with own free will. Not does say this, but then for out he complicates...

...it by his representation of God, who is a Douchebag, and well, everyone, everyone, people can really get behind sayings argument unsoil. SATAIN himself becomes a hypocritical tyrant, which is a problem. What is interesting about this is he's talking about is like it's a Christian idea. This comes from Milton, not some one who's right, who writes the proper story of the fall of the angels. It wasn't really canonized. It was an idea. It comes in Isaiah. We finally get in Isaiah the full full of Lucifer, the morning stuff, but that's really it. Everything else before that is just talking with like saying is used as a word of describing your adversaries. It's only after, as I he starts to become like a that an entity and unto himself. So he's really just talking about paradise lost. So we're when he's saying talking and writing anything about partis last he did. He just Wade a lot of the rings. Were these letters that he never said where he's like no, God, is I'm right, put another draw and maybe there's some stuff from a gasteine or a quiness on this on the floor of the angels. Also, they make you something on this that I don't know about. But it's Notton who cannize it all. Yes, yes, he's talking about them. Yeah, it doesn't matter if there's any other for because he says after Milton Ergo to Nols, talking about them. Yeah, yeah, so we're asking if there's any such thing. Is inheritable. We are wing. This is where the conversation began, but this is what everyone sat a concern with, and this is what practice playing without. Are ORCs redeemable? That I mean there's the question that's being as seeing I'd seen academicals because they have to describe, have to disguise, and not as a god one, because no one will believe that import could be redeval yeah, I mean, that's cultural prejudice rather than proof for theology or anything, but it's there. Young ideas talking to walks are individually inherently evil and are given purpose and direction by the imposition of a stronger will. Now this is existence precedes essence. Yes, who I get to go on a rampire for it? So existence precedes essence. Is John Pol Satra from existentialism is a humanism and is pretty much his summary for existential morality. Right. So, if God is dead, which is the Axiom of existentialism, if there is no preordained, hmm, destiny for everyone, then people make their own decisions. Right, their existence precedes their purpose, as if you have something like the example that's always been given to me as a pair of scissors. People wanted to cut something, so made a pair of scissors. Therefore, the purpose of the this is the need for the scissors. Preceded, it's exist. So when you create the scissors, they are for cutting, whereas people just happen. If there's No God, right, therefore, there is no purpose for people. Their existence perceived, their essence, whereas the naris saying that the ORCs in this world and in toppen as well, I guess they're like scissors. They are like scissors. They wanted to cut something, so they made Orso cout them and will. He's saying, yeah, therefore they have a purpose. It's inherent to them. Well, not clearly. Is Ut that? No, are he's wrong, but there are kind of gambles because he's the one who wants to redeem that. Anyway. It's more an experiment, but it's interesting to see there that if someone makes you for a specific purpose, ire you behold them to that? No, right, no, I mean obviously not. You know there's any problem, is just not you. You'll be. It's hard because you're being condition you've been conditioned or you might have biological conditioning. But I guess the other thing there is that even if you accepted as conditioning run the OCCs have been born into this cultural conditioning. That as saying that just because they were condition that way doesn't mean it's it's their essence. For any it's applied after the well, even though, like humanity, like when you are born, the purpose of you really existentially is to create more humans. One or another. You race must continue, right, we can tell, but sure, but the point is, like we are so much more that that, like, that is not your purpose. Yeah, I mean there's like, I'm not a baby buried, but I am. This is a whole thing, or it's a whole thing, but it's the same with not like but he's gone to fight, but he's not more either way. If you're saying that I'm born capable of producing people, when I'm biologically compelled to producing babies, then I should be. It's not the same someone designing you for the purpose of the fighting, but it's it's similar and and he revolves against it in the same way that I rebel against baby makings. So in the summer really in talking, also states that the ox had life are multiplied after the manner of the children of a Lubatar. So then this comes back to your baby making, ironically, is that they were capable of reproducing. This is what he's saying. There and not that had life of its own. Not the same once of a life could ever melkoll makes sense before the beginning. So he's saying all the orks now right there. Originally these twisted correct ails, but he ran out of his power for whatever is and couldn't make anymore. So also we have these days are descendons of works. They are a self made. So now there we have existence, presidents or essence, say will alls. Yeah Right. There's also a reference to the creation of ORCS or that were high at least in uncer an academicals. And it's kind of subtup. So when nut is contemplating the teller beats that he hangs out with as a candle stig maker, there perpetually bubbling and seating. So yeah, it says that people in the streets have dear to him that he'd been made in the back. Although brother Oats had told him that this was silly, the generally bubbling teller had called to him. He felt a piece here and now was Kim observes, and that is the person was criticizing their picture of racing, the Peter Jackson films, the Uurchai of the lot of the rings films, are showing being harvested fully growing from mud,...

...which makes some literal mud people. Well, yet columns that they were more pointing to my people being a racial slur. I I don't know about that so much, I mean any more than the entire Hawk thing is. He is a great sure slurs. But I don't know if this is in the books. As I don't have time to reread the Lord of the Rings. I had a flick through the two towels and did some search, as I couldn't find any reference to this harvesting of the Roquai in the actual text of the word the ring. So maybe this is an invention for the films, because otherwise this this is Sarah. No, not Sarah, Sarah Man at as and garden, making the orcxor he is creating lafe there. I don't think this is in the books. If it is, someone can write in at unseen academicals pot at gmailcom and we can address this on our series wrap up podcast when we get done with the witches series. The I don't know if that's in the book. So not. So he's not inherent or is? We don't know. Well, I don't think there is any inherent evil, right, like even in there. That's also disclobe world, I guess. Yeah, that's fair. All Right, I guess I'm sort of a calumnist or, if I will stew a child, would have to be a columnist, because I don't know. I'm working through this right now. It seems like the options are either God determines good of a head and that's the couple. Well, that's it's the it's the easy one. Be But if God creates, freeze, do whatever you want, it doesn't matter. Yeah, because whether God created you or not the only thing that can make you inherently evil is if there is a God who has made you inherent me. Otherwise everything is conditioning decisions, right. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's it. So, even though that's been made by the dark queen or whoever it was, unless she can specifically spin his soul to be evil, which is saying she didn't, then there is no such thing as inherently evil existence. persentive just made to find that doesn't make them evil. Yeah, it makes them good at fighting, correct, I think. Yeah, we solved dogs. I'm worried about project sold here. Guy. We spend three hours deciphering it to go. Yeah, projects are most of the works are undiscussed, as she says, perform highly problematic moods and are unable to escape native racial stereotypes even when they actively seek to challenge them. She says that the monstrousness that oxybody is always racial and is always built on and through racist stereotypes of blackness, even in works which attempt sympathetic, positive portrayals, and the cultural explanations of all otherness do not replace its underlying its underlying racial structure. Rather they have build upon its foundations. Now, this is sort of what we've been saying. Yeah, and she argues that the project rights back to the culturalist ORCs of convention by highlighting the fact that colonialism and slavery actively seeks to raise the cultures and societies of the people they dominated, but does not remove underlying racial logics. Yes, so she's saying. Yeah, any anytime authors try and say, well, the orks have their own culture, this culture is still based on stereotypes racists, she does observe that project a voids, I votely attaching real world reference points to or culture. I simply not describing it at all. Right, we don't know anything about our culture. Mainly because there is some one. Right. Not, is the start of the or culture shall the way. Yeah, I mean that. That itself is a load of him. Yes, I have culture unless that thing civilized. More book, but all they're out there and we just don't know anything about them and not about to start the modern one. But not. Can't remember anything than other than being a fighter and being told the stuff. Yeah, because he can remember the queen and he can remember the VATS. Right, I don't know them. And they're saying that the battle of ORC steep was the last time the OCS were use. So I think he's been around. Okay, so it's very old, I guess. Yeah, he's referred to was a young okay, never mind, I'm not sure it is. Again, this is a book with read since once ago, so I don't know if this is clarified right in. So this leads us to is not successfully assimilated, or should he even be assimilated into more for culture, because younger is on to say that narratives that bring ORCs into the ranks of civilization generally follow a pattern of assimulation, but it is always iminte never fully realized within the text. punning out that even a lane ORC does not stay in a more polk, the great mountain part of the discworld, but leaves it to find the remains of his people, saying that beings is divers as Werewolf, zombies, vampires, golden dwarves, trolls and Goblins have been fitted into have more society. But ox had no niche in at and even not never reappears again after unseen academicals. Now my first response to day is the other character, Sentipeia a right, this is one of the presut's mask yesterday, right, as he had oncet to venture and then died. Yeah, so you don't have any reappearances of Trevor or joy it. You do. Yet glendare showing up in science of discord, for yeah, she's working as part of the kitchen staff at the university, but that's about it. So you're asking should they be assimilated? No, they shouldn't have to be. Her is he? Well, let's address this idea of that. He goes off. is a young friending this as an admission that auks can't fit into the SIDDY, but he's not ostracized from the society. Righty. Well, he's made the hero because he has to be the here and order to sort of be acknowledge, don't recognize. And then he goes off to well, the implication is safe, but I guess he's going to find them and also bring them out of the idea that they have to fight forever on getting out of their vents. It's very ambiguous. I think that's part problem.

Mean, to me this could be read as a sort of I mean the sort of two options. Either he's going because he needs to be part of his people and that's not a rejection like more. That's fine. That's the acknowledgement that there are or cultures that are more valuable. But to me it reads more given pressure today judgments all through out the book reads more has a what's the word, a missionary sort of thing. Yeah, he's going to refine these, utilize that can colonize them and bring them into yeah, but again it's ambiguous this. We're not sure it. Regards of whether he stays in the city, I think is kind of a moot point. The youngs may be put in too much emphasis on. I mean, I think the end of the book he has been assimilated due to the science people have excepted those footballs. He's your yeah, he's acting the way they want him to act. He is only accepted into the culture after he is molded into that culture. They don't accept not as he is. They except a not who has suppressed his natural role of tendencies and behaved like humans. They don't accept a an Auk that just comes down to the mountains. You have to behave like us. I think that's gool some lighter. But yeah, I see your point, because they talk about like you've got to come to Australia and assimilate. You've got another language, you got another at where you have to marry a cricket and Football Trivia. Right, yeah, we don't know crooking of football for creating a football trivia, but I this is he is. He is part of the people because he knows football as yes, so, yeah, Oh, and something sort of yeah, again trying into the conversation about a simulation and also forecasting head to coup a jug alm. See if the Maccarin lady saying that she has nothing against vampires, just so long as they keep themselves to themselves. And she says we've got one working down at the crew ship, which is in our street and she's as Nice as you like. So I'll have a read about even vampires when we get to KUPA JUG on. But again we had this idea that the vampires have to some like keep themselves themselves all right, which is something again we've been talking now on some of the future podcasts that you're going to hear about nanny's many are granny weather waxes sort of conservatism here and and we'll talk about this and which is abroad, which is becoming my tagline. With the idea that different cultures, different fantasy creature should keep themselves to themselves is something that keeps coming up through these books. So, despite Pratchett's wanting to incorporate all these different races and things he'd is repeatedly putting in these people. And again I don't know whether they're meant to be like we meant to be frowning upon the macar own lady? I guess in this context we are, but at the same time she sort of the everyday lower Castley that were meant to be sympathizing with. So I'm not sure. And it's kind of funny the way she's talking about vampire like that it's funny. Yeah, yeah, it's just applying a real world thing and fantasy, but he's not putting the twist on it. Yes, just that's something a racist person would say. Again, this is the problem I have a especially with the later box, snuff particularly, but this one's well, that cultures are only accepted if they're our cultures from this isn't actually an acceptance of ORCS are good. This is an acceptance that ORCS can act like not hawks. Yeah, that itself carries its own idea. That what is acting like an ORC. Yeah, you have, I hope. Yeah, no, I do. I'm just like thinking about all the ways of thinking, whether there is any, though, I guess the only I think if Pratchett was here, he tell us that he was trying to humanize it. Well, I think he is using but then again, humanize has its own the patient and when we're budding up again against the limits of fantasy, it's less like, okay, so stuff, I keep going snuff, but stuff is terrible and it's about actual goblins and they are only incorporated in society, and I'm using incorporated here because they can sing right. They're treated like crap and then one of them sings really well. So vines is like, Oh my God, they sing so beautifully day. Are Worth protecting rather, and maybe I'll read the it and go, well, it's not. It's black and white. It's this, but at the time I was from amber gun what. So they're not worth protecting anyway, like vines just doesn't want to protect people for the sake of these saying rabbits. Can't you know? So we have to eat them? Well, yes, if you want to go down that thing, but even just within cultures that racist people say, true, we don't even need to go down or what. It's yeah, yeah, yeah, so there's that. But we do get a bit of this in unseen academicals, where nut is obsessed with the idea of worth. Yes, that he's only he's not valuable as a person himself. He's only available if he creates easy ying to create what I can. It's a bit more complicated in U S Acadaemis, because in snuff it's just we can see. Therefore, we are creating worth, we are worth something that we can protect us. In unsaying academicals, that it's a bit more complex, a bit Moreney ones, because not tells Glenda that he wants to go back to the Countess or that the Cran or hever was because she gives him worth. She said I was nothing and she gave me worth. I was nothing, I knew nothing, I understood nothing, I had no understanding, I had no skills, and Glenna says that doesn't mean someone is worthless and that says it does. It does mean they're worthless, but it doesn't mean they're bad. I was worthless. She showed me how to gain worth and now I have worth. And he did not define worth as leaving the world better than the way you found it. Is that him defining it, though? Is that what he's been told to define it as? What about a bit of both? But I think the important B theory says just because you understood nothing doesn't mean you're worthless, but it doesn't mean you're bad. I don't...

...know. He's saying people aren't inherently evil, but he's also saying that they're worthless unless you actively you've got to it's that unless they can think to Christianity, you've got to do active. You've got to be actively good. You can't just be passive. That doesn't get going. There's a whole circle of health for those people. But there's also the implication here at like just the term worth right, like have you contribute to the world? Nor how you'd worthless. No brothers and were back. Yeah, this is like our homeless people or jobless people or whatever. People were passing girl or he contribute or whatever. Yeah, me, a liberal point of viewers look at that and say, well, they're they're not contributing, and that was saying, well, they're not contributing with that doesn't mean they're inherently evil. But implied in that is still is the idea that they still shouldn't be protected, they still shouldn't be given anything. Yeah, whender. Some of the sees this as a problem. I mean this is where we get this subversion, because to me the discod series is kind of saying you need to create worth, you need to contribute something. But then you have Glenda, who is meant to be the most intelligent, relatable person in the story, telling us that he's kind of broken, he's obsessed with this idea of worth, that he's always making things, because as if worth is something that drens away all the time so that you have to keep topping it up, and I can't tell whether Pratchett saying, yes, this is what worth is. You need to work all the time. It is good that not is topping things up, or pressure is saying working is good, but you have worth. Everything has one. Yeah, I don't know, I have anything to yeah, no, we haven't solved morality. Damn. Had such, I hope. But that is the ORC. Conversation over. Yeah, only took a stime. So another major theme of the book is Psychoanalysis. As do we CARE ABOUT PSYCHOANALYSIS? I fucking hate psychoanalysis. Is Stupid with hanging like I have nothing to say about it, just that it is a sort of an ongoing preoccupation of pressure. He is always making illusions to psychology. Yes, psychoanalysis, no, yes, yes, probably that way referring to psychoanalysis psychology in equal rights, like there's the anology, will head Ology. I'm know more. He's references to forty and psychoanalysis, the staff and Alex Symbols. He's playing with that. So this is I don't know if projects ever saying anything about psychoanalysis. It's just an image that he likes to revisit. And Yeah, finally, but yes, I tend to sympathize with our supervisor. Patrick writes in his blog in civilization and it's discontent, for it argues that putting out a fire by urinating on it represents a sexual act and the controling this desire is an achievement, a hetero sexual, masculine victory of culture over nature, which is both without a prototype and impossible for women, which, Patrick says, tells you a great deal about Freud and his credibility and very little about fire and the capacity of women to urinate on and I don't know if I could ever agree with Patrick Moore, and I do. It's gonna say. Yeah, thank you Patrick. Thanks Patrick. All right, this is it. The final section, which is not called missq world yet but will be, keeps felt into a lot of things. Some point out of side. I thought this was going to be a thing, that it wasn't Misquanius. Yeah, I was like for now, just the miscellaneous section. Did you have anything you can remember because you read the book six months ago? Yeah, yeah, so I do. I did want to point out, because it bugs the hell out of me, is that they say that there is nothing pink in the cabin under curiosities, but then it produces a bacon sandwich and bank to this pink. So I just want to put that out there. Sloppy stuff. There's also the whole thing about a radomus. Do you remember this week to the bottom of this erasmus? I did. I did get to the bottom of it. So there's DR or Radomus, and this is someone when ponder step as is reading the book of traditions. There's professor hf pull under and Dr Radomus, and I wanted to know what the significance of these names were. Paul Undo is apparently a German seedless best. Sorry, I don't know why a bit. That's a reference. So I thought this was a reference to Erasmus. There is an erasmus in the discworld who is the great uncle of Mrs Mrs Cake, who had to eat his nails under the table due to being Halfwarewolf, which is mentioned in recommand. But there's no connection there. Went Down Major Rub a hole with this. I was googling just a Radomus and all I got was Anagram and scrabble suggestions. So nothing, and I realized, yeah, it's a plan on a ratum. So, Mr Mr Mistake, it's a bread to hear. Sorry, that's an example of when got a like jumpil academia goes wrong. would be like, what is the significance of this? Oh, this is where you get to come in, because I know that is one of the characters on the football team. Is Harry cap stick and your name is I was cap stick. My addresses. You've read that, Joe Class Time? Did I? Yep, everything is predetermined. There is only you put. Now do you want to extralate in the meaning of the name capstick? Yes, and my grandfather's got a lot of genealogy work. He figured it out, but it was to do us would cutting and blacksmithing, and a variant of it is coach steak, which means would cut up. Yeah, well, I'm not looking for the definition of cap stick. And so you know, you Google, I the you end up my ancestorycom and I says it's a Lancashire and Yorkshire origin. Is a variant of curve steak. As you said, occupation on Decan for a would cover from the old French Cooper to cut post, the Middle English stock stick or steak or pe mistake, and I told you...

...this and you went yeah, my my grandma said that apart side of that and yeah, put it on. Put It on. Ancestry do all that work. He's pretty cool. Yeah, very nice. That's Harry cap stick. That's your rather yeah, nice redheaded life. Well, Harry, for the record, is a pet form of Henry, so it's gramatic from Ham, which one's home, plus Rick, which is a powerful law. So Harry Kapstick is the king. Would cut, I'll be happening Alice, which does not mean why, which I have now cut out of there, which is with sisters podcast. For the record, is a French version of the German adle hired, which means nobility. So you are noble. Would cut, but not not the king of this might get cut as well, but I just want to share out the scene where getting he tells Rick cooed that, he says, I see even when I look in my shaving mirror. It is philosophically present everywhere in the universe and order, apparently to highlight the existence of good. I think there is more to this theory, but I tend to burst out laughing at this point, and I just love this because the idea of the good evil balance in fantasy drives me up so I just like seeing Frederick profunded it. But Start Wars, Star Wars, right. Why do we need the dark side? Yeah, just have the good side. So good, snomally good side. Exactly nuts everyone, as it has been the first episode of on saying academicals. It's been a bit of an ordeal, but thankfully the next two we've done have gone a little bit smarkelying. Maybe not weird sister so much, with the hospital visits and everything. But so yes, now, if everything is gone to plan, you have this episode and the next episode on inkle rights will already be out and then next month you can get the weird sisters one. Or if you can't wait till then, you can throw some money on the Dr Previous podcast patron page and get it a full month in advance. And we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. There'll be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then you can sign up to our patroon page and get all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any burnus episodes or specials that end up doing. If you're after more of us, alice hosts her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature, and you can find me reciting the plots of horror movies to people who are too afraid to watch them themselves over on the scarty cars. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with the fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing out takes. I don't know. Want to go on ducks floor record soon, but only after I asked after me the duck. They came home from cricket. I was like whatever, black you know background I was and finally I was like what the fuck is anyway, hang on there it ducks. This sounds like more fun, though, and Dolph must run you through alerttross that. I think I'm going to get this wrong, but I think it's when you're three on apart, it's like three out the parts. Are we doing on there here? Golf, do do you Housecolf Work, tennis? Also got hip balls into a hole. At the end of the day, they're like the best, not assumptions. I just don't know, and I don't ult for references to happy gible and you're just like sorry, okay, I'm Sam boags in it. I'm so much Eddie Sands. I give you UHOUL. Dance them together. I don't care about sport. Was that culy Andrew Raymon in his book fantasy politics and politics, l the osps sting? This is a movie out of the moment called cold, cold, and Tom Holmes in it? No, well, I welcome us if we find out he's a camel. I'm just trying to like on our also, this is relevant. No, not really, but in it it's like it's set in a dystopian world and all this is the one looks bad, so bad, like every time I went into the food I was leaving like this is the female leader. Is someone else for I where it's like we put spot a man and and Skywalker, yes, Phil, yes, and Nick Jonas is there. Oh okay, here's my baby horse. And the ideas to Hollins also sometimes on horses and they live in a forest in this like pre industrial world and they're just like bubbling around. But the bit that doesn't work for me is I'm like it's Nick Jonas, his hands done, his nails are done like he's a nobody is fooled by this. It's a skinny little man. He's like controlling horses. He's not controlling horses, like big fuck. So that was so. You heard it. Here I see a candles Nick Ju. That's categorically not a filthy old don't Holland. He's the drawings up filthy holes boys...

...come. So he's start off like an article. The horse boy, Tom Holland. Let's confer parburn. Anyway, no one worth play, although I did have an idea for a drag character called reese with a sword. That's very good. I think I'm now committed to an etherp that's very funny too. Yeah, good. So I want to do a bit of camp out on the portrayal of gender politics. If you're ready for that, else I'm ready for its. Do it. Alas, can you handle this, you had to say, Josh. Can you handle this as I can handle this? What's this from Rupo? No, thats its. I'm prettylicious humor. Anything to spit out on the burnus fits of the end. But it's pretty pretty delicious, and think I'm ready for this. Jolly. This is destiny's chart. I'm not making some weird just look at a Hym blankly. Wow, I'm young,.

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