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Of the Devil's Party – Manfred, by Lord Byron

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Did you know Alice does another podcast called Of the Devil's Party, where they and their friend Rowan do a deep dive into dark hero archetypes? 

It's really good. You should listen to it! ...It also might help explain what all this "Byronic" stuff we keep talking about is.

On this bonus/preview episode Alice and Rowan begin their discussion of Gothic villains by examining Byron’s 1817 closet drama Manfred and its debt to the Gothic tradition. The pair discuss Byron’s life, work,  and experimentation with dark hero archetypes, and whether there is  actually such as thing as a Byronic Hero. They consider the way Byron  experiments with Dark Heroism by combining existing heroic archetypes  and traditions such as The Wandering Jew, the Child of Nature, The Hero  of Sensibility, Prometheus, Satan, the Gothic Villain and Faustus.

Subscribe to Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/

Support Unseen Academicals on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

A Doctor Prometheus podcast.

Those of you who have been paying attention will know that Alice hosts another podcast with their friend Rowan, called of the Devil's Party, where they go into the history of satanic heroes and romantic and got the literature, and they just put out an episode on Lord Barns Closet Drama Manfred, which is where the tradition of the BYRONIC hero that we've been talking about sort of begins. So, as well as encouraging you to go and listen to that podcast as well, I thought this would be a good episode slip in between the Masquerade episode, where we talked a lot about Byron and the development of the biotic hero, and the COPPA jugglom episodes, where we're going to be talking a lot about Barron as well with regard to the vampire tradition, which he is very foundational to. They've got episodes up on Milton's paradise lost and Charlotte Dake is a floyer, which is really cool book that you should all go and read, and I believe they have episodes about Matthew Lewis has the monk and Barnes kine coming out soon as well. But I think this is a good place to jump on. That also gives a good introduction to Byron and the Byronic tradition, which is something we keep coming back to a lot on unseen academicals. It definitely helps to have read the play for this episode, but you don't need to. I think Alice does a really great job of explaining the plot and a lot of background and context of Barron. So I think it's definitely accessible if you're into this sort of style on analysis we do on unseen academicals. I definitely found it really interesting and a good refresher while I'm researching everything for CAPPA Jugglin. So highly recommend it. So good to listen and if you like what you you can go and subscribe to of the Devil's Party as well. There should be a link in the description of this and every other episode of unseen academicals. So yeah, if you want to support Alis, go and do that. Hail Satan, fast job episode of all the Devil's Party. My name is us and I'm rowing and we're back and we're doing man for it, Manfred, see we made it. It would nine of the Devil's Party. We are still up the Devil's party. I'm excited about Manfred. I know you're excited about Manfred. It's the first other texts were as a floyer. Yeah, yeah, I suppose. Okay, so then it's like the bookend for the Floyer we started for for paradise lost. We've bookended paradise lost with the floyer and with Manfred. But last was a good choice. It was a good choice. And I think this point is about the passions actually, but I could make it about daker. But essentially what I've done is I've found begin of passions on hand for the part with the Chemoi Hunter, the Chamoi Hunter, HMM, and I feel like they've got the same vibes. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to like do a closer reading of it. I'm going to explain a bit. The Passion come out. Let me figure that out really quickly. Okay, so the passions was published in eighteen eleven. Okay, interesting, because man for it is eighteen eighteen or eighteen seventeen eighty. Do we know when Barron was writing it? Yeah, sixteen, eighteen seventeen eighty. Yeah, so it's after the fact. HMM. So Byron store from Dacre possibly it. Like I think it's possible because we know that he's done things with her like poetry. But one of the things I found really interesting about the Chamois hunter seen in the passions was that it's followed a guy walking around on some high mountains and contemplating how it brings his soul above his clay and talks about how, like he sees God in the splendor instead of in churches with sublime so the return to nature. So it's wordsworthy and yeah, but like then he like extrapolates and he talks about a whole bunch of nonsense. HMM, romantic. So yeah, we'll see how they right. So man for it. We now begin our examination of Gothic, of villains and heroes, and we're going to find out that there's a very fine line between the two, honestly, and men for it's kind of an odd place to start because it's long after the GOTHIC has initially developed. But I think it's an interesting place to start because there's so many traditions working within Manford and we can sort of talk about how they culminate and then look backwards. So so that's the goal. Signing. I'm really excited because I think Menford was one of the first poems I studied in uni in gothic genre. Oh they go even then. To what extent is it Gothic we're going to discuss today? We're now turning our attention to sort of the eighteen in the nineteen century. We've been in the seventeenth century with paradise lost, but we're moving on, we've got things to do and this is a time of huge experimentation with different types of fiction, particularly gothic fiction, and explosion in the writing of them, which Byron is certainly a part of. The other good thing about Manfred is it's very accessible. I think it quite easy to read. Yeah, no, I think so as well. For his paced well, yeah, I'd only had to google words like two or three times reading through it. So yeah, it off as I say, it kind of offers an introduction to these big gothic ideas. So what we're going to be doing more of? Obviously with paradise lost, because it's so hard. There's so much of what we really work through the text, with the plot, but now we're going to start moving on to assuming people understand the text or they've read the text and then building on there. So if you haven't read it, you might want to go read it before the class that you're you're preparing you for by listening to this podcast. It's also it's also really shut and there are a couple of free online versions you can find, because a lot of Byron's works are free online or that through your library. So Peter Cochrane, SEEHOC CEOC HR A and is a great source for this here, has a website all about Byron and...

...as a bunch of PDFs on there that he has put together. He's sort of edited the polons himself with the appropriate footnotes and context and introductions. He's an amazing scholar and I got really excited because I thought, wow, yeah, I can have him as my examiner, but he's dead. So yeah, the same as boss Let. I don't know what I'm gonna do anyway. So we'll briefly talk about the plot, shall we, yes, let's do. Let's talk about the plot. I think that's important. Right. So it opens and his study men, for it is in his in his gothic hall and his Castle, and he didn't I don't think there was much like description of what was going on there, but when we knowing that was Gothic, I go in there and I start picturing like arcane books and like shit bubbling in beakers and like like skeletons on the walls and pigs and duts, if it's the theme. Yeah, and he's in his this his study, in his castle, reflecting on his suffering, despite his unparalleled power and knowledge. Because say to yeah, and he's sooking because he's been cursed, and the type of curse he's been cursed with is one that means that he can't die and he has to suffer forever. But he doesn't tell us why or who gave him the curse or what, anything more than that. But he decides, he gets it together and he says, I'm going to call the spirits one more time and see if they can help me. Use as an immense amount of power. It's meant to demonstrate just how powerful man for it is, and he asks for forgetfulness and oblivion. And what do they tell him? Can't help your mate. Essentially, yes, it's not Um piss off. Did he put that in the poem? What did he what did he rhyme it with? Piece off? You trying to come up with something that rhymes with off. Yeah, yeah, same. So after he fails with spirits, he kind of resolves to die. He Climbs Young Frau, which is a mountain in the Swiss Alps and it's pretty huge and you can google it now. It's felt Jungfra you google that, have a look. Imagine standing on the top of that. And the point is the fact that you know, not only is he so powerfully can call the spirits, he can also climb this huge mountain in a place that other people can't go. The on. The other things up there are these like tiny plants that barely grow in, like the birds, and it's things like it's birds of prey that are up there, and a Shamoy hunt is one guy looking for the goat, President Da. Is that what it is? It's Ada special kind of goat. They're like cloffy. I think it's a special kind of goat that just keeps on topping up in literature for no other reason because they're in the high mountain places, and poets going in high mountain places to think about things. Apparently they can't think about it at a lower altitude. Most poets I know have asked smart. I don't understand how this works. So MANFORD's on the edge of young Frau and he thinks I'm going to jump. This is it, I'm doing it. And right at that moment the show where hunter drags him back from the Ledge and he's going, you are insane, man and he recognize as in Man Ford to the traits of nobility and power. He sees him and we sort of get this third party perspective as well, confirming our suspicions, which is cool. He offers Manfred wine and God and help, all of which he refuses, and he goes a little mad and the sisters blood on the room of the of the cup, and the hunter very fairly comes to the assumption that Menfrid is cookoop and honest, because he's so men Fred sees the butt on the cup and in the hunter he seems that he's mad. Yeah, yeah, that's a fair assumption. Yeah, something's going on. So man for doesn't get to kill himself. So then he's a bit sad and he calls the witch of the Alps again, a huge feat for a mere mortal, and he calls so mostly so he can talk to her so he's sad, sad and lonely. Any wants someone to talk to, which is honestly the story of, I think, most women's life. This guy, I just wanted to just would have talked to you. Just want to unload some emotion. I'm busy, I'm controlling whether systems. What are you want? Going literally put down a tornado to come here and you are saying just want to all all the washing. Yes, so he finally relates some of his back story and we can get this idea that he was in some sort of tragic romantic relationship. There are hints of Incest and somehow he lost her and had sort of implied that perhaps it was suicide and perhaps it was because it was an incestuous relationship, and that he's tortured by the guilt from this and has been spending the rest of his life trying to find a way to bring her back. And she says, look, I can help you for a price, your soul, and he's like no, and this is something recurring about Manfred. He refuses to submit to anyone else's will. He won't subject himself to a power other than his own, which is pretty cool. It is cool he's making. He's not actually doing any sort of devilish packs. So if someone tells you that this poem is about a guy who makes a pack with the devil in correct, yeah, push the books, pushupom slowly across the table and look them in the eye and say read this, and say that again. You know, he's a bit pissed off because the lady he forced to listen to him talk didn't want to help him. So take notes. There he goes to the whole of our own man is for help. This time they pity him and they marvel at his power. It's the first time the spirits have sort of given him that kind of respect us by being much more powerful than him. And he talks to nemesis and they're like nail down for nemesis, and he's like no, and they kind of respect that about him. And eventually they...

...do raise the specter of a start, who is his lover, we assume, and he kind of freaks out and he's only upset more and she doesn't really give him much to work with. Like she disappears, he said. He returns to his castle. And, by the way, there are two different versions of man, for we're going to talk about the earlier one and why it got changed in a second, but we're just going to go with the canonical one for now. So in the last act man for it is at his castle. His servants are talking about at him and they're like he's insane, he's guy, he's got a history, stuffs gonned down and Abbott comes to visit him and wants to help him in. The servants are like did you know? Don't waste your time, but he is insistent and Manfred says please leave now, and he does, but then he comes back as a demon kind of turns up and tries to take Menford soul and Manfred's like no, my soul does not belong to you. And then he dies, but it's on his own terms and when he kind of chooses to it, it's very ambiguous exactly what kills him or whether the curse is just finally lifted or anyway, he dies and he says Tis not so difficult to die, which is always interested, because he's wanted to die since the beginning of the book. He's lately hard kill me. He's trying to throw himself off mountains and it's just been getting in the way he's had a hard time dying. Yeah, that's mad for it, Dude. What do you like it? I kind of liked it was short. is to the point. There was less like drama than I thought. I was like, hmm, you could really kind of like make this into it, like it could have been something as big as Shakespearean play like this the opportunity for that. So I was curious about why it was so short, but not in the sense that I'm like picking on it for being short. I'm probably because it's not. It's not meant to be a play play. It's a closet Druma, meaning you're meant to just sort of read it on a Sunday afternoon with a cup of tea yourself and imagine at all. So where is a Shakespearean playing age to have, you know, the fireback structure of the complicated plots, all of that stuff? This is just like a little story about man Fredo. We're going to talk about the influences, influences on it and like that'll help explain why it is the way it is. I think a little bit more for you see, if it's so short, why are we still talking about it as much? As we're talking about Shakespeare because it's so good and we're going to talk about why. The first we're must talk about Lord George Gordon Byron Iron. Yes, this name, I know this one. We have my boy spoken about this thing on link. I'm just I'm going to hit the major plot points here, bringing go card, because if you get me started on Byron's life, life story, I we will be here for hours. I recommend a source for this or if you're looking to read a good buyer and biography, there are many. The problem is you get early ones which are incredibly highest and unfair, and then you get later ones that almost like too much criticism is going on in them of the work and the poet like it's not just looking at the events and things influencing them and the evidence that there, then sort of doing historiography on the events and applying capital t theory or capital D discourse, and that drives me insane. And I think the best one is probably still the first one I read, which was Fiona McCarthy's Viron life and legend, which is fairly far rough give you a good overview and you can flip through it to sort of key periods. If you're just wanting it for an essay and you need to be able to put stuff in an introduction. So there you go, Byron, all right, tweet from Melbourne University or University of Melbourne. In Scandalous Byron writes that contemporaries called him a cool, unconcerned fiend and unsexed. Sirs say, Wild Siren, charming apostle of infidelity, spoiled child of fame, a man of genius whose heart is perverted. England's best poet and her guiltiest son, she says. They said his writing was a perpetual monument of the Exalted Intellect and the depraved heart and the very suicide of genius. So we're dealing with a lot here, which is rather funny, because he dealt he dealt with a lot and he had a lot going on. But yeah, my Gosh, what I like? What a thing to put on a on a grave. Yeah, I like the ideas like I am a I am a monument of exalted intellect and the depraved heart, but maybe I'm not depraved enough. I don't I don't think so. I think think they would fairly well adapted on, I well adepted. Know, even as as a person. He's very intriguing special yet like just like his fires, because so well, well, he's you know, he's life kind of challenges our expectations and our is it ethics or morals, which I am both. Yeah, so what Ron is talking about? The barnes born seventeen eighty eight. He dies one thousand eight hundred and twenty four. So he does very young in his S. his father there's like our there's now a book by it's called the fall of the House of Byron, which is very cool and looks into the Byron family history before Byron and basically makes the argument that they were all scumbacks, cheating lines got back just this one could rapoetry. Yes, so his father is basically a pirate and disappears, a seaman. His mother he has a complicated relationship with for the entirety of his life. Yeah, you be on surprised here. It's complicated...

...and a leave it at that. As a child she would left him in the care of a nurse who almost definitely sexually assaulted him, which he suggests or implies, led to some of his more what he refers to as kind of depraved sexual behavior, etc. But there are. Lady is. He was just traumatized from a very young age by his treatment of the women around him, including his nurse and his mother, and, like many of the Romantics, kind of carries a suspicion about this. So there's that. He's educated at Harrow and then he sent to Cambridge. He shows a propensity for poetry to very young age and writes sonnets and things to his cousins and girls that he likes. In this stories here. He eventually goes to London and then he very famously travels the east and he goes to sort of different locations than people generally do on the grand tour. Because of the wars that have been going on in France and whatnot, it was kind of not safe on and not practical to go through there. So he goes to Greece, he goes to Turkey, he has a great time and child Harold's pilgrimage basically follows his journey. The first thing he ever publishes is hours of idleness, which is trash and, as we've talked about before, shall almost definitely a report for Charlotte Daycare. And then he publishes English birds and Scotch Reviewers, which is this polemic, the trio like takedown of the publishing, poetry reviewing culture in England and that kind of makes him his name a little bit as as a pole it or as a writer. Dean is a sort of upstart for doing that, because that's the second thing he's published a little bit. Yeah, he tried to sort of quash it later on because he does come up come it does seem just like an arrogant young man, but he was right. Yeah, a lot of things he just came too hard too early, you know. Returns to London, takes his seat in the House of Lords briefly, has lots of affairs with lots of women. It's a whole thing. Read a bit, but where to biography on, including, probably most famously, Lady Caroline Lamp who writes a damning Blen Alvin, which sounds like, you know, Lord Byron later on, and then a lot of people learn, like I'm going to talk about this later, but GERTA learns about Byron by Reading Glenn Alvin. Is An almost like biography, which is a problem you don't want to start. But yes, let's stop that. So he marries Animal Annabella Millbank, for her money and she's quite a like she's pretty but she's very kind of pious and prudish and, as it turns out, not into but stuff, which that was the grounds from nylon the coffin. Yet right, it was a few things. There was a lot of things, which is that's just kind of funny that we know that now. I mean two hundred years later. It was part of it was part of her filing for divorce. But yeah, it was just one of many things. They spend very little time together as the marriage goes on and there's a great account of him in the carriage with his friend Hobhouse Camp Hobhouse, who we traveled with on the grand tour. Most of it basically freaking out like a little boy, because Byron was probably by if not gay. That's why he spent so much time in Greece, because it was legal there to be with men and he viewed marriage as a form of essentially slavery and and was very against doing it, but knew he needed to for money. So he's just freaking out in this carriage on the way to this wedding that he doesn't want to do with this woman that he doesn't love and he has no one else really left to turn to emotionally other than Cam Hobhouse, who is like, Oh God. So the wedding obviously doesn't go very well. They do have a child either, Ada, who come turns out to be a lovelace who works with Charles Babbage on the first of a computer, which is pretty cool. There's also the his sister. Ah, yes, no, I the full siblings. Know they are half siblings. Yeah, but that doesn't really help, does it? Not? Talk about this? So Augusta Lee was married and had kids already when they sort of rekindled their friendship. They were writing letters beforehand, but they became friends, were get again and he went to stay with her and she stayed with him and they were all very, very close and spent a lot of time together and almost certainly definitely had a baby together. And at the end of his life a lot of his letters were burnt, the most depraved letters. Can you imagine? Basically what's left over. So it's very likely we've lost the hardcore evidence for this. There's no way to empirically prove it. We can't do DNA testing at this point. But basically, definitely yes, most modern Byron scholars will agree that he probably was having a relationship with this sister. Yeah, we'll talk about that later. So of course Annabella mobank wants a divorce for the sister thing, because she kind of finds out from Auguster and they exchange letters and Augusta is very sorry and sad and upset and didn't mean to steal your husband, didn't. That's the problem here. That's not the biggest issue. So there's that kind of guns for the divorce. Was the sodomy the relationship the sister. But that's he was also a dick bag and she had plenty of evidence on that. Yeah, my favorite story of Byron. Whenever I teach Byron I kind of do a lesson in two half. So the first half I talk about all the great things he did and what he accomplished and what he...

...gave us and how interesting he was and the like. In here only end of the hero swims this huge he has to swim this huge distance. Yeah, and Byron goes and reproduces it like because he just loves poetry, and he's like, Oh, they did in the palms, I have to do it, which is exactly all of us wandering around. See, it was a freaking nerd. That's what you're telling me. Huge Nerd, and he read a lot and it was excitable. So I always start with like that and then I slowly drop in all the awful stuff he did. Yeah, and then force them, because byrons one of those figures that very quickly you can just be like, hmmm, White Man, evil, no, no good, we'd need to cancel it, we need to send to this, we shouldn't talk about it. But he gave us so much. It's like, if you cut out Byron and don't look at where it comes from, you're actually doing a disservice to everyone. So I think it's about trying to reconcile or recognize it. You can't reconcile that. There are two things going on here and one is bad and maybe one is less bad. Yeah, but they finally get divorced and he can't see his daughter and that sucks for him. He flees to the continent because his dad's are that bad. He did buy a carriage in the in the fashion Don Napoleon's carriage, and he never paid for it. And, as I was going to say, my favorite awful story of Byron is, well, Annabella was giving birth. He stood in the room below freaking out, throwing water bottle or soda water bottles at ceilings and screaming because she was making too much noise, apparently, while in labor. HMM, yeah, that always gets half the class already. Wait, which half? Okay. So, yeah, he goes to the continent and he starts traveling around. He takes up a house in Geneva with Polidori, very famous. Paying for it, baby, it's they don't pay for a lot. Honestly, how how does they just scallopster and Europe and not very the way it worked was like you're like, okay, by I'll send you the money, and then you just never send the money and then the debt is come for you, but you constantly moving around. They can't track your phone. You're just as crazy. Yeah, no one has any money. Yeah, and he flees because of the debts, the interest controversy, the divorce, but also the increasing accusations of homosexual behavior, which was obviously illegal back then. And when you say the word sodomy also, that's in the sense that it was a law right, yes, the name of mental sodomize your wife. Yet so it wasn't just so, Yep, okay, cool. Yeah, he was homosexual and sodomizing his wife. Yep, so that was like a criminal act. It's in itself. Yeah, yes, yes, okay, so did direct any fleet just because of one of these things, mainly, or because, I'd say, for all of them. Yeah, he needs a got. So he goes to Geneva. The Alley is the shall he's come. He toos the Alps. He's great time. He meets Claire Clamont and impregnates her. Fun. Yeah, well done. It's quite clamont is in love with him. In London she kind of propositioned him and he went with it and she took that as he gave her an inch and it, so to speak, and she took a mile and Jesus Christ Alice. And the story goes that once they get to Geneva, Byron doesn't really want a lot to do with her and and all of the dramatizations of this clorin Claire is always represented as like really annoying and and kind of silly, but she's actually very clever, very smart, various student. She was properly heartbroken by Byron, particularly because when she became pregnant Byron said, okay, I'll provide for this kid, but I'm going to take it from its mother and look after it and you don't get to have it. And that just broke Claire for many, many years and she outlives every everyone remember who dies out of Mary Shalli or her first I think Mary dies before her. She goes to Russia and becomes a tutor there, but she's just the most unsettled part of the whole Byron, shall you, circle, and the most troubled and just struggling constantly, and I always feel quite bad for her actually, based on however I treated her. Yeah, he import him pregnates Claire. Clamont allegret dies at a very young age at a convent, and that also obviously destroys claire. And Event Truly Byron kind of settles down in Italy. He spent some time in Venice, but then he becomes kind of a Paramol to trees at a Coolie, which was a thing back then. You could be married to sort of a rich gross man, but you could have your side home, and Byron was aside hope, and the rich gross man was cool with it. So I want to be someone's side hope. Can you imagine the perks? Oh, yeah, that's a speaks. What are these? What are the other perks? Robes, really diaphanous robes? Yeah, Nice Pajamas. So I mean these are these are the broad strokes. Byron was always inspired and attached to issues of freedom and liberty. He was a huge nappollion fan boy. His first speech in the House of Lords was in sup support of the lattites. Do you know who the Lottites were? They were the frame breakers. So basically, with the rise of the industrial revolution, people were creating machines that could do employees job for them and kicking the employees out, and so they were rising up against it. And so if you call someone a lot I now you're kind of you. The implication is that they are against development and change. But there's this whole political like what's vacation, which is like, well, I'm against change because it hurts me and my place in society. So his first speech and House...

...of Lords was on that. And then, of course, towards the end of his life he decided to go to Greece to fight in the war against the Turkish but he was a man without any military training with a lot of money who just sort of thought I'll go and fix it that way. How did he get money? I thought he was in debt or just didn't pay the debts and had a he just never paid for anything right. Yet it was absurd and he had to sell. This is the problem. He had to sell his family home and it took forever to do it and he was sort of back then you'd kind of work off the fact that you're going to get a huge inheritance one day but you hadn't got it yet. So you'll look crew all of these depths up to it and then you don't get the inheritance or it takes forever to get the inheritance or whatever. So, yeah, he was trying to sell these family home. Yeah, that's insane. How could you have if like that? Just I know it's very stressful thinking back on it. And like debt is, prison was a whole thing. Like William Godwin, it's just spent most of the end of his life trying to stay out of debt. As prisons, it was pretty terrible because they just grab you so scary. HMM, reckn HMM. You're not to draw back on Russo, but HMM, probably stab struct well, still are out of the part of the reason they went to Geneva was because they loved Rousseau and Russau is from Geneva and he wrote mostly in Geneva. So they huge fans at these ideas of, you know, liberty, from equality, fraternity. He's hugely inspired by the French Revolution, the American Revolution. He thinks this is the way to go, which is why he goes and joins the Greeks. But he doesn't make it home and the accounts kind of very and most people just assume he died of a fever. I think it's a bit more complicated than that, or is complicated as he can make it based on the information we have. Basically, he goes out for a ride and he come, he goes, he sort of stays out too long in the cold and gets three wet and come time and he probably just had a cold and a really bad fever and obviously back then there was no way to bring your fever down, so they tried to do blood letting, which just likes everything worse, and I think they took like it was a huge amount of blood and there's this great picture of him at Miss Alongi, which is where he died, and he's like they're draining him and this sort of porcelain bowl and it's just filling out with byrons blood and he's just getting tailor and Taylor. Yeah, and he died surprise and even in his own time. And this was kind of new, indifferent. You know, he was the first ever rock star celebrity. He was this the people's poet kind of thing. You know, Wordsworth never kicked off amongst everybody, whereas everyone loved Byron, everyone knew by iron in some capacity. He was very widely read and celebrated in his own day and made a lot of money. He was also widely pirated, which is part of how it had so much popular appeal and he sort of encouraged that towards the end as well, for example, and or just new as an example of how much people adored him. He was popular not just in England but and not in Europe but also an America. In Asia we're starting to find some examples of early Byron readers and obviously also in Australia and in Italy. An American ship and invited him on board just and like fired guns and salute of him and said we love your work. It's like a card actually invited to shoot some seagulls in your honor. Yeah, it's actually so. There's lots of like awesome Byron stories like that. That's articulous. I mean, yeah, no, good for him, I guess, getting famous like that. But it makes sense the why we still talk about it, because it's not like we've ever stopped. Yeah, and for a lot of years after his death it was more because of like what a kind of scandalous figure he was. Everyone wanted to talk about him. He was famous for that reason. It was like, Oh Byron, but now it's because of his influence on poetry and his very interesting and developed life. Like he bought a bear to Cambridge because there was a rule that you couldn't have pets, and he's like, okay, I got a wild animal, like that's I'm not breaking the rules. I hear such a shit. Didn't he have a lot of animals? He did. He had a Menanderie tone. That's ridiculous. Lots of birds, lots of to the ever horse. Yet Percy Shelley gives an account. He arrives in Venice after basically traveling there in like two days because he needs to go sort out this stuff with a Legro and Byron a legerism. Well, and he's like I have to get there now to help her, and Byron's kind of like, oh, she's unwell, is she? All of the courts arms, I didn't notice. And like Byron kind of opens the door. Or sure he couldn't have. It would have been one of the servants. But then there's just animals everywhere. There's a monkey, there's peacocks, it's just chaos. Yeah, ridiculous man. So like, yeah, the most famous poet ever, but there's also an argument here that he writes for the populace and that's what makes him famous, as certain people will sort of say that. You know, yeah, he's poetry is good, but it's not great. It's popular. That's what the people wanted. It's dramatic. It's just Strama. We don't write poetry for the fucking trees, now, do we? Who else is going to read them? Why? I don't know. What's worth. Was Writing Poetry for the fucking and there's more going on, but it's the fucking trees. Will get to it. You just nails he nails them face down to a tree difference to pry. The other ones are facing out. A Byron sort of decides to write man for all, starts putting men for together after three...

...to it around the Alps pop house during his sort of stay in Geneva and it's one of his more sort of popular, lesser works. We think of child Harold and Don John is the big famous ones, but men for it becomes quite popular, it is put on on the stage, it sort of has a whole life there and there's particular reason for that. Manfred is the combination of a lot of different literary influences that a lot of people pick up on and see, see it as developing or progressing or doing slightly differently, as Professor Samuel True wrote of the play, more than any other English problem, man for it is typical of the romantic period, is it? It is an expression of the mood of Romanticism and epitome of the time. They don't know the extent that I agree, but it is kind of like this landmark text that brings lots of ideas together in particularly in terms of the byronic hero and so on thoughts, and it's influenced by a lot. So some of the more apparent influences are, and I can never say this short to Brian Schatsy Brian Brene when they anyway this person. I've never said that, lad it's French, but it represents a kind of incestuous relationship. There's also gothic fiction. He's dealing with faust and fauster. So very clear influences, as well as obviously things like Satan. So it's complicated. That's a lot of I there is coming together and she sort of talks about the way Byron wanted this to be mental the theater, so I remember. I are saying about like the closet dramas, and he tries to develop Dimung, which is a German word for mood apparently. And she says Manford opens with the Soliloquy, justified by the all important character of the protagonist, by the Prince precedent of the English and German Faust and by its service as a key note indicating the stimmum of the peace. The essential factors of the situation, sin, loss and grief, the quest of knowledge and death are all alluded to in the opening speech. I'm more, further light is thrown upon man for it's life and character. We are at once a praise to the information needed for an understanding of the situation. The simplicity of the action of the piece makes the exposition a matter of a little difficulty. The early introduction of the supernatural serves, though in a lighter degree, in a slighter degree, the same purpose as in Macbeth and Hamlet, Visiv to give the proper tone color and to excite the interest of the audience and reader. So immediately from the start he sets up what the kids call the VIBE. Did you? Did you learn that from your students, by we're not, we're not that old, are we? Just to not use the word VI I don't understand berries and cream. I don't understand that. And now that you've mentioned it, it's on my facebook prefailed. There's a mood and you kind of it's interesting because, like the influences are there and apparent, but at the same time they're very startle and very carefully put together. I quiet like it, and I think part of this is because Byron was such an avid reader. He read so much gothic fiction. For a time he worked on the committee at Drury Lane Right, which is a theater in London. You would have seen so many applications sort of, you know, for this is my Gothic play that I've written the to rip off of mysteries of you doll folk, and we publish it and who would be like noe. But he's so like every single iteration of the Gothic and it was all in his head when he was writing this. So he would have been able to like sense essentially all of the trends of these hanging around, what's popular, what people are reading into it. That's really cool. It's like he has like the oversight of a publisher sort of thing. He was very plugged in. Even when he was abroad, he'd be sending let us back to John Murray, who is his publisher, who he made famous, because Marie was just like publishing travelogs. Before Byron he wasn't a big deal and yeah, Byron makes him famous. and He'd send these long leaders of, you know, shopping lists. I remember one that was like can you send six bottles of Soda Water and a lot or like six chess of soda water or something. He loves so to water and so do I. So you know, and long lists of books he wanted and in the really crappy biopick of Byron. The joke throughout the film is Fletcher, his sort of long suffering servant or Man Servant, is always having to carry the books around from place to place. So it's like a fucking books. Definitely happened. We're going somewhere laturn. He's like fuck covers, man, well, they're all hard covers. Word. They yeah, really big one. So this probably all influenced what Byron was trying to do here. Okay, so the other so the name man for it is sort of influenced by historical precedent, probably most influenced by Horace Walpole's the castle of a Toronto from one thousand seven hundred and sixty four in terms of the name. But there is other precedent because while all got it from like the place a Tranto in south Italy which was ruled over by a man for it in the twelve hundreds who was a natural son of Frederick the second, but it turned out he was actually usurper and his nephew's name was Conrad. So there's like which is all the names in in Castle Batranto. So there's this historical precedent as well but I don't. I think Byron probably would have been aware of based on his reading. It's just occurred to me that I didn't go in check, but thank you. Was the man for it is like a Gothic name. HMM. Yeah, it's definitely associated with the Gothic very much, is pointed. Yeah, don't trust a man if his name is Manfred because he's probably got someone locked in his attic. Yeah, but you know, you can for helmets at him and that will scare him to bit. Go listen to our episode on a Tranto when it's out and you'll know what we're talking about. or read it the books. Very short. The other...

...major major influence on this closet Dram Johann Wolfgang von Geta's Oh, got right, that was a good yeah, the famed German poet. He kind of predates Byron a bit. He's, you know, fully grown and matured as a poet before Byron is sort of super developed fast. A fragment is published in SEV seventeen ninety, part one as a whole is published in one thousand eight hundred and six, and they're sort of published and developed between eighteen, twenty eight and twenty nine. And then part two is added in eighteen thirty one. If you got to read fast, just read the first part. That's a forty year poem. That's a lifetime P that's ridiculous. Like most of my adult life is going to be, hopefully at least forty years. Yeah, right, it took him a while Ale and we're going to look at this on its own and we're going to look at Marlow's faust at some point. So I'm not going to go into the faust tradition too much here, but Gerta kind of brought it all together for the Germans and it became super influential, whereas Satan was the big faust figure for the English because they never really had like marlow was big, but no one was. It wasn't as influential as GIRTA. So makes many waves. Yeah, let's waves. Byron was very aware of Gersha by at least eighteen sixteen, according to Ian Butler in Byron, and Gerta. He already knew the styles D Alamine and whether. And famously, Matthew Lewis, who wrote the monk, wrote some of GERTA's faust out loud to Byron at Villadia. Dati, which is in Geneva in thusand eight hundred and sixty. Didn't know that. That's really means all that. Even I talk about that little tip that now I've got. Yeah, nice to read the monk again. God So do I, which is he didn't read German, so he couldn't read it himself and it took a while for that to be an English translation he could get his hands on. So he's kind of left up to other people for a while. And, as I said, he journeyed through the Alps at this time, so it's assumed to have also influenced the sublime representation of landscape. So the way it sort of thought is like, okay, he's been read Gerda's Foust, he likes the idea and he sees all these mountains and he kind of brings it together in this beautiful poem. And let Byron did later dedicate, or at least try to deditate, kate sudden upolis to Gerta, but it was during the time we kind of fell out with Murray and both of them seemed to have forgotten. It never quite happened, and it turns out girt was really offended by this. I read a book was old, basically what we know of GERTA's perspective. And and Byron was kind of like embarrassed of his influence and and aware of the older poets kind of maturity and fame and everything and felt stressed. And girt was very proud and very proud man. So he was interesting. Byron he read a lot of his work, but he also read like Glenarvan and, as I say, took his understanding of Byron from that. So he didn't really know him and it took a while for them to sort of exchange letters, but they did. They did eventually. They never met in person then too far. So we have sort of Peter Copper and, who I mentioned before, any and Butler to thank for their excellent scholarship on the influences men of Manfred and, as I said, on Peter Cooperan's website you can see it's got it. He spends a lot of time indexing all of these. Also of significance is Ben Hewett's Byron Shelly and and Gert Faust and epic connection, which is very dense but pretty good scholarship trying to figure out the very complicated connections between the text and who took what from WHO and why they used it and why it's there. And the reason go to his so significant is because Byron's representation of Manford is very similar to Gerta's representation of Faust. That's the problem. And by a very strange coincidence, go to himself, on October thirteen, one thousand eight hundred and seventeen had received a copy of Byron's play and he wrote the most amazing event for me was the appearance, a day or two a go, of Byron's man for it, presented to me by a young American. Americans everywhere. The strange and gifted poet has completely assimilated my faust and derived the strangest nourishment from it for his my hypochondria. He has used all the motifs in his own way so that none remains quite the same, and for that reason alone I cannot sufficiently admire his mind. The remodeling is so complete that very interesting lectures could be given about it, as well as about similarity with the original and the dissimilarity from it, although I certainly do not deny that the somber glow of an unlimited, abounding despair becomes tedious in the end. Yet the displeasure felt on this account is always mixed with admiration respect. As soon as our ladies who are passionate devotees of Byron had devoured the work, you shall have your share of it. Wow. MMM. So what going on there? He recognizes that it's the same, same, but different. Yeah, and you can see also that pride you mentioned coming in there, the fact that he recognized a part, done something worth while. But like it's not as good as the original and it's a it's a remodeling. He tried Um. So ten days after that Byron is hearing this accusation a lot from a lot of people and he's getting pissed and he writes a letter to Mauri. October two eighteen seventeen. And American who came the other day from Germany told this to Hobhouse, that Manford was taken from Gertis Faust. But ever may take both the fastest has German and English. I have taken neither a lot. And then, over two and a half years later, on June seven, eighteen twenty, he sums it all up. His girtis Faust, I have never read for I don't know German, but Matthew mounk Lewis, in one thousand e eight hundred and sixteen at Cologny to translated most of it to me...

VIVVOC and I was actually much struck with it. But it was star Bark and John Frau and something else, much more than fausts that made me right. Man For the first scene, however, and that a fastest is very similar. Okay, so he's like going back and forth acknowledging I'm not influenced at all, but maybe a little bit influenced. Another letter recognizes this. It says I mentioned Gertus comparison of fast and Manford, and Byron observed, evidently in earnest, that he deemed it an honor enough to have his work mentioned with fast. As to its origin, Lord be said, but sometime that, some time before he had conceived the idea of the peace, Monk Lewis had translated to him some of the scenes and had given him an idea of the plan of the piece. So he's clearly influenced by the storyline. German said he and I believe Gerder himself, consider that I have taken great liberties with faust all I know of that drama is from the sorry French translation, from an occasional reading or two into into English, of parts of it by Monk Lewis, when it dear Daddy, and from the heart's mountain scene that Shelly versified the other day, because shelley sets about trying to translate Gertr as well and nothing. I mv him so much as to be able to read that astonishing production in the original, because shelley was much more scholastic all the romantic poets. Who is the one who was like, I have to know everything or I will die, which is why I find someone like that. So I think Jerome Again, who's a very significant Byron schollar puts this very well because he says that Byron is over sensitive to charges of fall. He's touch, he's how twitching when you look at him. By and what she got over there? I know D I'm good. I've heard of him. What's a faust? I'm not influenced by MARLOW. I've never read marlow. No one said, but you were all that you did. He also says that in his casual pronouncements and his letters, Byron was notoriously and consider listant this will come. This has become a thorn in my side because I go, okay, this Byron event or this Byron thing, let's figure it out, let's go through the sources. Will who the various biographies, look for the various like notes and things on his work, then look through all of the letters and journals, in the letters like from he sends to other people, and you just trying to put together this puzzle and there's always a peace missing, and it's Peter Cocker and says. Seems to me that Girda was correct in his reaction. In the Byron takes themes from Faust and re renders them with a view to distillation into interiorization and economy. Instead of the need for attempted to encourage the protagonist fall, he presents Manfred has fallen from the outset on his own initiative and without intervention of any third party. So this is a big deal. These are the big changes that he makes. He takes away mephistophilies and although he retains key scenes and ideas, he represents it as an individual triumphing over like the supernatural or the natural or some sort of sublime other worldly thing. So it's the triumph of the Individual, which is Romanticism, English Romanticism, as explained by Lorna Fitzimmons in her article faust adaptations, from Marlow to Adooma and Markland. She says, the realm of evil into which Manford and hudes intrudes, as already noted, borrows little from the pandemonium of Milton Satan. I argue otherwise. The emphasis is rather on the bold defiance of the presumed sovereignty of our manies. Manford, like Prometheus defined Jupiter, refuses to bow down and worships. And now we've got Satan and prometheus into it. But this does make the question about Marlow's influence. So I'm talking about Christopher Marlow and his play the tray tetical history of Dr Faustus, which is very good and we'll cover it on another episode. As we've heard, bar a Byron claims he didn't read Marlow, but Byron, like the Devil Light and Peter Cockrane, gets to work on this. He says the player put so this is smaller. He checked right, he says the play fastest appears in none of the play sets. We positively know Byron to have owned these devote very little space to Elizabethan or Jacobean theater. Dr Faustus is neither and Mr Inch folds British theater, nor in ancient British drama, nor in the British drama. It is not in Dodsley's old plays, but it does appear as the first item in a much better edited and printed anthology old English plays brought about out between eighteen, fourteen and fifteen by Dilke, who is a friend of kids and future editor of the Atheneum. Dilt conceived his work as a follow up of Dodsley and was encouraged in the Labor by Gifford himself. Keeping our on him, he becomes important later. We have no evidence the Byron owned these sets, but Gifford was kind of a patriot, a paternal figured to Viron. So what's possibly? Could have borrowed it, but as he oh, here we go and Gifford were close at the time, it is quite possible he could have seen a copy at Murray's. However, as all three of the sets he did own were, along with so much I'll sold in the one thousand eight hundred and sixteen option of his library. The statement I had and have no dramatic works by me in English. Seems true, at least as regards the few months between his leaving England and writing man for it. That a book was not or was no longer in Byron's library does not mean he didn't know it or remember it. In addition to the possibility of Gifford showing him a copy of dilt the library of Duru Lane Theater, on the committee of which he served in eight hundred and fifteen till he left the country a year later, he could have very well had volumes which, you know, he didn't have light it. So we just want to know if Byron had a new marlow and I think he probably did. Oh Yeah, just he seems to have had more opportunities to have it than reasons not to. Yeah, and there's like stuff of gurtis faust in there, but there's, as we will see, stuff of Marlow's faust, particularly that opening scene in his study. I think it's more of...

...like Marlo than Gerta in a ways, but we'll get to that. It's also similar to Frankenstein. I can stark and start in the GOTHIC Barron. Peter Cochrane even goes as far to say that Manfred and Frankenstein have so much in common one might suspect collusion. And I know who side I'm off. It's Mary's. Oh well, I mean, the reason there's this argument is because both of them kind of go to carnal houses and try to bring back life and die of this guilt and whatever. But Frankenstein is doing lots of extra different and interesting things, whereas Byron is just running a sad guy in a castle with lots of thoughts. Right, yeah, he start. You'd like, she's with that. So this is a sad guy in a castle with lots of thoughts and seeing. The other thing about man friend and Franknstein is obviously they're both being kind of conceived of and developed during this period of like Byron and the Shelly's being in Switzerland. So that is another influence, because although Frankenstein is I generally thought to come out of that night where they all set around and wrote ghost stories, and we'll talk about that another time. You know, Manford kind of, I think in a in an indirect way, also comes out of that experience and that thinking in those discussions of obviously going to the Alps and the reading he's doing exeter. So the fact that there's like suspect collusion is unstandable. Yeah, well, it's just another one of the Gazillian influences that he had. If he was taking influence from all these random books and place, it's exactly not surprising at all to says that, as well as being sort of the epitome of the romantic period, he argues study of the sources of Byron has shown that there are three chief elements in the character of the protagonist, distinct but related to each other. They are the themes of Prometheist, Don Juan and faust. Manfred is a complete representative of no one of these but includes characteristics of them all. I think it's more complicated than that. I'm not sure about Don Juan, honestly, I don't think it really fits. Or don't Joan. And we're going to talk about what characters might fit. So often we think of man for it is a Byronic hero because he was written by Byron, but now we have a more popular understanding of Byronic heroes and people just kind of throw the term around. What's a Byronic Hero? Role the specific one, or do you want something just sort of turn around. If I asked it, if I asked it at a dinner party, what would someone tell me? What's the generalized they'd probably say, okay, well, he's like this, you know, he's like got they I think they'd picture him. They'd say like toll dark and hands, but as in like dark hair, and it'd say that he's like a brooding guy who's like probably rich and he's like got this sort of air of melancholy about him, but like that makes you really intrigued. And he's got problems, like he's got hardcore emotional problems that he just figures out while standing on mountain tops and like x pot. What's the word for postulating? Is that our word? soliloquising? Yeah, you find him in guybrary rooms soiloquising to himself, like honey, it's dinner time. Yeah, and he's all he always always a little bit damp because he's always outside in cold places, and he's really not it's not really he's not a good guy to be around if you want to be happy. Yeah, generally is after Nagy. Yeah, often a very esthetic figure, isn't he? You imagine him based on esthetic yeah, I like to tell students if you want to see just gothic esthetic, like a Bingo Gothic, that Tom hillston movie that you watch very recently, Crimson peak, friends and peak, it just all the boxes come Hidleston as kind of the ironic figure in that from really is too yeah, and not spoil it, but it's, yeah, my God, complating right, very complicated. So baronic Heuros. They have this now popular understanding behind them. The problem is we don't really have a working definition, like their definitions and dictionaries and whatnot. But the scholars it's very hard to pin down. This is a byronic hero. It's kind of like the shifting figure and you can make a kind of list of attributes and so off. It has enough of the attributes than we can think of it as about Nakuro. And I think that's how most people work. Or they just recognize the esthetic and say all part of what influences this is the Baronic Cure. And people see Byron himself and his life and the way he carried himself and half famous, he wants, etcetera, as really influencing and permeating his work, because a lot of them are sort of so biographical and I think that gets as part of the way. But the problem is you risk overlooking the significance of the differences and you kind of lump them in together. Like a lot of scholars will just look at byrons kind of overall work and say, Oh, yeah, these are all baronic heros, much same thing, when, as you know, they are very different things going on in each one, even though he's using very similar esthetics or styles or characteristic yeah, and the example I've got here is like James Bond and Edward Cullen have a number of similar attributes but they are very different types of heroes. It would be like trying to flush them together and saying they're the same thing. But like there's so much variability. Yeah, and to that is that to that mean that when people talk about baronic heroes, they're really trying to just like unstick the tentacles of Byron's influence on everything? But I think they're trying to stick the tentacles of byrons influence tentacles. Metaphor didn't really come across. I'm just taking his influence like an octopus's pretty ticals, but everyone's reading it is...

...one great big tentacle. Yeah, instead of byrons influences tentacles as good, though, because you it becomes very difficult to go back to the source. Yeah, but Byron, because he does bring all of these ideas together, they become recognized what other people as as style of hero and Adob itself, and they just kind of lift that and take it and just kind of keep stamping it down on characters, even though they aren't really doing anything new or different or interesting with it. And they and then the byronic hero is kind of born as this just kind of like my asthmic ball and being sterro is. So yeah, it's like yeah, it's brooding, it has problems, boronic and just move on, whereas Dan Young for us. Well, I think it's a disservice to Byron. I think it's unfair to Byron's very careful, very purposeful characterization of different heroes. So in the Horton Haunted Castle, which is kind of laughed at now a little bit, but it's this very early work by Eno Ralo on like Romanticism and all of the things going on in Romantism. So it's kind of a good place to go back and sort of check and then work your way from and he says that a swart sway the eye, someone mood fell, indeed, fruitless guilt, gloomy soul, mystery that is so essential a feature of the Byronic cauro. Sorry with me, soul. These are all qualities of Byron Cure, and he sort of goes through and finds examples of them all and says there we are, because there are no all of them. It's it's Byronic. He says, the Jowar isn't. He does sort of distinguish. He says the jar is important because it denotes a new phase in the development of the Byron and Curo that, without neglecting the Pale gloom brought down from earlier pictures, his passionate mystery now become expanded into the chief characteristic. He also says that the central personage of all byrons poetry, a type with whom he deals from varying points of view and bearing lights, endowing it with ever new tasks, infusing it, as in Canaan Manford, a shame of Prometheus, defiance of the Gods and a demansion of the secrets of the cosmos, but always keeping it fundamentally the same. See, I disagree, but I also agree because the esthetic is there, but it's different in the motivations are kind of the same but also different. I think it's more complicated. This is the closest I think there is kind of to an existing definition. I found others, although he doesn't acknowledge Satan's influence and instead it's about the influence of different heroic traditions rather than trying to figure out the BYRONIC tradition. So you can see the problem. Barn smushes them all together and add something new and then people just take out the thing that he added and Smush it down on other things but take out all the rest of it. But then it seems like there's still a line drawn right. So Byron it. They take out the Byron bit that's Wush it down on others and then people go oh well, it's influenced by Byron and therefore it's influenced by Satan and faust's but no, actually it's just this esthetic part of Byron. Yeah, well, that makes sense, and that makes sense because it's not like Byron's faust in all of these other plays either. And so if you're going to say that every baronic hero has the has something to do with faust, that would be incorrect. Yeah, well, for me thees or Satan or anything pumplicated. It's a super Barron too. And what a significant is that Byron brings these traditions together and he makes it this kind of archetypal and incredibly influential figure. And that's the whole point of Peter Thorslov's book, and we're going to be talking about false level a lot now that we sat started cold again. It's called the Byronic hero and he also doesn't give us a working definition for the baronecure, like. I've checked multiple types. There is not. This is a baronic Heiro. He gives us like paragraphs where he talks about it, but he never goes this is it, and his how you can tell what it is at because he himself recognizes, as is, I say, the purpose of his book, that the Byronic Hero is other things smush together, and he goes through the different things that have been smushed and looks the various iterations of the pushing iterations, the smushing jerome. Again does note the development in Byron and Romanticism. He says pre bionic hero villains are sentimental figures because they finally set aside the intellectual issues which they themselves have raised for us, but the baronic hero carries out his skeptical programs. This is why Byron, say, Gills and plays are actively intellectual works, whereas the monk and the Italian and Dave Ruba are at some point kind of reign in their questionings and set the readers consciousness at rest, Byron pushes us to be thinking the entire time. That's in Kaine, that's in men for it, it's in child Harold. It's a constant pressure that makes it. The role of bride is obviously important. Will Talk About Satan's influence here, but this is important. In the baronic curate is always an aspect of pride that becomes a kind of corrupting force. That, I argue, is what he takes from Satan. It's obviously in Prometheus and in Faust, but I think like the best version of it is in Satan, like this is this huge enabling thing, but he had also literally damns him to help. So yeah, that makes sense. So when someone says that Byronic hero might be inspired by Satan and you don't see like hoofs and claws and all that stuff, well, we'll look at the exact influences in a second. Now we're going to look at like sort of the different heroic elements of Manfred to try and figure out what kind of Dar cury is or what bits is mushed together. And obviously one of them is the gothic villain, and they also hasn't a hot chapter on this and there's plenty of scholarship on it. But folso defines the gothic villain as a kind of unregenerant villain in the novel, but on the stage he became gradually more sympathetic until last he appeared a half villain, half hero of Sensibility. Since he became a personality first of the novel, however, and since it is in this form that he is comparatively well known, it seems reasonable to discuss the villain of the novel first, and so off he goes. But he kind of acknowledges that...

...we can't hear the gothic villain becomes more sympathetic, and that's largely to do with Byron's influence. Early are you get Hienviron, and that's because he's giving them pride, feelings, feeling, feeling right. We giving me, and I think what is most gothic in Manfred and Shi I'm in here is like the setting and the idea of incest, all of that stuff. That's the GOTHIC. But the rest of it isn't really there. There's not someone you know, haunting the place, there's not unexplained mysteries going on. He's not I mean you can do a feminist ending of Manford, but he's not pulling any women hostage that we know of. That we know. So, like you said, the Gothic is really just the setting and he's using all of these other ideas. Yeah, he's got the name of Menford. So does that mean it doesn't have gothic considerations, just sort of a gothic esthetic, or is that not true? It doesn't really deal with GOTHIC IDEAS? I don't think yeah, it's dealing more with romantic ideas capital are. So the other way we can look at Manfred is this kind of like metaphysical rebel right, and again this is another SEM subcategory, thoughso uses I'm just talking about it very generally here. He's just a rebel against the world. He's like, I can't stand he in teenager. His rebellious for the sacred. Yeah, got. He's repressed by reality because he's gained all of his power, but it's still not enough to bring his long lack, long lost love back, and he is frustrated and powerless despite his power, and it becomes this paradox that kind of destroys him, essentially, and it's an intangible and oddly unspecific force that that is somehow oppressing him. We never gets hold exactly. Wood is very unspecific even then. Like it. I don't know if he like made a deal with someone to get these powers. What? They don't know. He never did. He never got them. He learned them himself. That's right. He spent hours and hours like looking at the stars and like doing yes, science, the caves. Yeah, Fascit selfmade man. So you know the resulting frustration and links to a Hazarus, the wandering Jew. Tradition, Faust Formethea Satan, was all about rebelling against a power bigger than oneself and frustration when being thwarted, which was obviously all the rage during the romantic period. So one of those is the wandering Jew. What do we know about the wandering Jew? Rowan thing, actually, I don't even yeah, no, literally nothing. That's the One archetype that I somehow slip through during my Undergrad so you've got blerazah and to me, actually, I want to go too far into it because we'll do an episode on it and all of its history, right. But the one wandering Jew is a Hazarus and he was sent to have essentially cursed Jesus on the cross and his punishment was that he could never die and it was completely wondering the earth. Telling his storage anyone it would listen and it becomes a huge romantic motif. This idea of an individual who, like can't die and his punishment is that he won't dine has to wander the earth forever, is really interesting to them. We see it in like the Ryme of the ancient Marin, for example. The the Mariner who tells the story has kind of this wandering Jew vibe. He's like you, I will tell you my story and they're like Ah, you're very old. And something else I think is interesting Christina Saron in her chapter men for the Bonte's and the Guy Rock and the Byronic gothic hero, and in the Gothic bron she says Manfred and heathclish share the fundamental features of the damned heroes. Once they lose the possibility of rejoining this but self from the platonic embodiment of their beloved, they find no alternative aim in life but start on a journey far away from familiar people in places. This need to try and this need to flee and try to break free from the haunting past makes up one fundamental literary top possible ages, that of Kine, or the wondering. Do the journey outside as the journey inside the self. So it's obviously also in the tradition of CAINE. We know can, yeah, yeah, but those are time. We're talking biblical tradition of Cain. So the story of Cain and Abel. Long Story Short, Kane kind of murders able his brother in the first ever fratricide or human murder, because they were eating meat beforehand murder was taking place. He essentially cuts out that Nice Line of humanity and he goes off with his wife and starts and new humanity and creates the first cities and invents meat eating and all of these things. I get. But he was, you know, the curse of Cain because he killed his brother he was cursed by God to also not be able to die in as ostensibly still out there wandering around about. To ask is he's still out there, like you know, telling people to eat meat? He's curse and it won't it means he can't die. So it has the wondering Jew idea and the idea that he's kind of a cut outcast from humanity. Is there so the evidence for that? It talks about him being cursed by a power deeper than all yet urged a tyrant spell which had its birthplace in a stark and damn Satan learning record, a demolished world. I wandering whole in the eternal space, by the strong curse which is upon my soul, goes on and says, and by their brotherhood of Caine, and I call upon the and compel theirself to be their proper how again, that's kind of Satan like. You're being existing is going to be hell for you. The very like being of you will be hell. You don't have to go to hell, you can just be in hell. And he's going to be cursed like came. But it also suggests he has some sort of brotherhood with Kane. So he murdered a sibling, maybe a start. It's all kind of we're in psychoanalytical territory, but it's there. And the curse itself is not a slumber. Not to die shall be in thy destiny, though THY death shall shall...

...still seem near to to thy wish, but as a fear low. The spell now works around Thee and the clinkless chain hath bound thee over thy Heart and brain together. Half the word been passed. Now with Aur so with like, like a plan, like not quite just. He's just going to wither and become like a crinkly little flower, always withering, fletely going to die. Yeah, and later on he says to the which my solitude is solitude no more, but people would with the furies. so He's suffering. I have prayed for madness as a blessing, Tis denied me. He says. I have a fronted death the cold hand of an old, piteous deam and held me back by a single hair which would not break. He says I plunged amidst mankind forgetfulness. I saw it in all and I dwell in my despair and live and live forever. So all of these, all this evidence shows his suffering are under this curse and the idea that he is fulfilling the archetype of the wandering jude, because he's just like wandering around being sad everywhere, and it's sort of like what's the line from paradise lost? I self FEM hell, which way I fly as hell myself, am hell, like he's saying, yeah, hell is with him myself. So we've got Satan here and will come back to that because there's even more prominent allusions. We can see even then, like Byron is influenced by these things and how they're starting to knit together. Yeah, I think in that evidence is like, oh we have the wandering juice stuff being brought in fairy Um really very well suffering and calling up random women and being like can I tell you what's up my mind? Yeah, okay. The other sort of lesser heroic archetype that is working here is the idea of like he's an outcast, and I've kind of pushed through together here because I think they work together in this case, but they're different. He's a child of nature, kind of luck. He feels best in the natural world, as the Romantics believe nature is this restorative, transcendent force, and it sort of suggests that when he's among humanity he feels more pressure and is corrupted, but when he's in nature he's at peaceful, more peaceful, and also a man of feeling. I think the two kind of going hand in hand here. Will look at the hero of sensibility at some point. It's less interesting, but basically the the idea of a man who's like, I have lots of feelings and I'm just feeling them and talking about feeling them. I struggled so much through through that part of book. Yeah, I did. I did not, because he just he walks around any fine stuff to cry at, and that's, yeah, really how he you know, he only recognizes himself when he's looking at his reflection in a puddle of his own tears. Like, dude, serious about we're talking about Mackenzie's man of feeling, which is the kind of archetype of work of this shot. I've gone back to it and kind of enjoyed a little bit more knowing the context that I have now. But yes, it's most poppy umpy. So we see evidence of this when he's on young proul. He says, I feel the impulse, yet do not recede and my brain reels, and yet my foot is firm. There's a power upon me which with holes and makes it my fatality, forteality, to live. Oh, while he's on top of the mountain, he's talking about how he has ceased to justify his deeds and to himself for the last infirmity of evil. And he sees an eagle and he compares humanity to the Eagle and he says, but we who name ourselves at sovereign's we half dust, half dead. So it's kind of reflecting on these ideas that humans are meant to be awesome and his own humanity and how sad he is men of feeling. Sucks to be him. But instead of like walking around and being like, Oh, this woman is Paul this, you know, this man has one leg, he's thinking, isn't it sad that I am not a God like I should be? That it's a good yeah, you're right, that's the VIBE. Okay, so he's essentially like a cat, but with the ability to feel sad. It's funny you say that because in shout out to I'm seeing on academicals, if you like, Terry pratchet or if you just like going down weird academic rabbit holes, go listen to unseen academicals, because that's all we do. We barely talk about the book. It's about the stuff that informs the book. There's an entire episode just talking about like the the theory of Disney. Basically we have a good time. In Pratchett series you get kind of, you know, echoes of these ideas and the byronic hero is represented in a cat and I argue very vehemently with Josh about whether or not the initial representation of this is a baronic hero, but I think it wasn't. And then it does become it, because Griebo is a cat and he he's transformed into a man and he's kind of Byronic Weirdo. And then later on he can't control when he's a cat or a man and they're making fun of him and they're being like animalistic idiot that Riva and they're having an argument about like whether or not he's an animal, but it's actually about the baronic care. I can bring it up but doesn't matter anyway. So the point is in Pratchett a baronic here is a cat that's very fitting. I love it. I got to read that one now. It's not a good one. Ah. He's talks about the breath of degradation and pride contending with low wants and lofty will to our mortality predominates. And this is him reflecting on feeling, you know, pride and will and out desires. It's all just fluff and then we die. I mean, I don't know if he's right. I've been I've had some pretty nice time since I've been born. It's good. Yeah, in terms of like child of nature, the Shamoi hunter is surprised to see Manfrience so high. He says his air proud as freeborn peasants, and the mists rise around him and the hunter decides to warn him and he says, I'm Giddy, and he seems to offering already, but you know the fact that he's up there, he's contemplating his mortality. We've got men...

...of feeling and we've got child of nature. Kind of Ye, child of nature is a bit more complicated, though, because the idea is that like you were born out of nature and you're kind of like this innocent, uncorrupted, virtuous creature. We're sort of taking it as like he's an adult of nature. Well, he's been, doesn't he? Like get most of his science from nature and observing nature and doing the oldest stuff like that argument. That's what argument see, like he said, corrupting nature. That's like he was. He definitely wasn't born from it as a sort of liked ide thing. He's more like this great big hand that shot up out of the ground and started fucking shit up and get powner nature. So we get further examples of him reflecting on his mortality in a soppy way. Such would have been for me a fitting to my bones that then been quiet and their depths. He's talking about young crown, saying I should have died, and he says, Oh, in this one plunge, Farewell, Ye Opening Heaven Look not upon me. Thus reproachfully. You were not meant for me. Take these atoms, I love them. Like said, do you know what atom is? To start with, then, how would that work? They are away early understanding that it was the smallest possible unit of measurement, kind of which is so like reading it now in the twenty one century, is it's so dramatic and it, like I wouldn't be like take these electrons, you know I mean you should, I should take these atoms. And obviously the response from the hunter is stain not out, pure veils with THY guilty blood. I don't commit suicide, you idiot. And he says I am most sick at heart. I am all feebleness and not to goes man of strange words and some half maddening sin. He goes on and he says the first of other people who's talking about? The first of their ambition was not mine. The aim of their existence was not mine. Though I wore the form, I had no sympathy with breathing flesh. His Joy was in the wilderness and to be alone. And later on he tells the Abbot the lion is alone and saw my and my nature was averse to life. So all these things to get the right. Child of nature, happiest in nature, spurns humanity and like things too much about his own feelings and souks about it. But not quite being this and child of nature, he's no the adult of nature, the adulterer of nature. Ah, yes, perhaps that that fits well with the incesting. Oh, we'll get so again. She says. Manford is solitary, partly by inclination, partly by consciousness of superiority to his fellow man. This is part of it. He's not quiet misanthropic, but he knows he's better than everyone. I think. Yeah, supercilious. Partly, by the way, if his crimes and grief, he knew this. Here's a man of mystery and crime and linked with these crimes he has, like conrade before him, the questionable virtue of devotion to the One and only love. The single minded devotion and subsequent last Manford characterizes is the core of his heart. Reef. More than anything else, this idea is the very foundation of Byronism, which again was a big call, but again we're here. They pick out these parts of the Barn accurance. All, this is the center part of irons. I mean this is the center part of Firon is, and it's just like no, no, no, it's all it's all soup. Put back in the super songs soup. It's like they're trying to like, I don't know, like find a single fish in a barrel of fish and they just like shove their hand in there and they pick out a random fish and it's like, I mean yeah, sure you got one, but there's about a hundred others in there could be any one of them exactly, and the point is it's all of the things together right. As far I like the souper thing, like if you take the you make a soup and then you've tried to take the salt out. You can't, first of all, but then you know you just looking at the salt. The salt has to be in the soup to for it to be, you know, the full thing. Yeah, so he's not just one fish, he's the barrel of fish and, like you say, it's not just the ingredient in in the soup that makes the soup. This is the soup. I've lost it. You can't isolate an aspect of byronism because the point is it's all of these aspects working together. You see, why didn't we just say that instead of working with super and fisherman? I'm going to learn my degree did not just as silly as I was when I left high school. Thanks question. He also notes connections between different Byronic Fergus hell, the links between Manfred and child Harold, who had side to many, though, and he only loved one, the Jowler who learned to die, but no, no second love. Like Salem and the bride of a Beados, he has experienced unnumbered perils, but one only love. Like Conrad and the Corsa, there was in his heart love, unchangeable, unchanged felt book for one from whom he never raged. So this idea of love is central, but like there's all these other things going on in each of those characters. Yeah, and it's they're very different things, even though it's very similar things. So it's just it's a lot. Well, think of all of the characters in stories that have like been defined by the fact that they've only ever loved one person. Juliet is not a Byronic herow really, but interestingly, oh no, Juliet is a very early example of like modern Gothic. When they're down in that crypt scene at the end, like we'll look at this baby. Her speech where she's like it's dark and gloomy, is very gothic, like it drips with these gothic ideas that we never associate with the esthetic. Wow, returned to it. Okay, so the other so that's child of nature, man of feeling outcast and the wondering Duke. The other very prominent influences, that...

...of the myth of Prometheus. And again, I keep saying this, but we will look at this in detail. She says in Menford there is nothing of the high self sacrifice of Prometheus, who suffers Christ like for the sake of men, that through his solitary anguish and perpetual war, the sum of human wretchedness may be rendered less. Do we agree? Menford doesn't really sacrifice anything. Yeah, and I'd say that in a sense, Manford's child of nature qualities are kind of in opposition to his Promethean qualities, because Promethean is promethes is suppecial to sacrifice or other people, whereas the child of nature is a recluse. I'm going to the first. Yeah, yeah, it's the prime thing. It's like I went a little too far, and Prometheus is sort of the earliest example of that. Well, it depends in terms of like literary history. He is the early one, but technically Satan came first in Christian history. But you know, everything is fake and nothing is really so how do we separate the PROMETHEAN pride from Satanic? We'll talk about it when we get to satanic, but as I mean, we foreshuned this a little bit. PROMETHEUM pride has to have some sort of selfness and selflessness in it and a little and some ambition, and you know that motivates it. But it's for the greater good where Satanic Pride is, because you should be allowed, like I should it out. Jeffrey in the editor review praises Byron's Manfred's for Promethean quality. So it's something that's being recognized. Byron says, though, that Prometheus is for him just one Greek tragedy among several, although we later talks about although he although he never writes us. Member, and I'm going to pay a phrase and mess it up, but basically he says, although he never wrote a story entirely dedicated Prometheus, it's everywhere. He does write a poem, but it's very short. In Manfred the sort of the quotes we get that indicate this. He says the mind, the spirit, the Promethean spark, the lightning of my own being is as bright, and he says to the Abbot to make my mind of other men, the enlightener of nations, and to rise. I know I knew, not whither it might be default, but for even as a mountain cataract. So promethian ideas, I mean even the word Promethean. What do you think? Yeah, I think it's there. Even if he's not like acting on these this sort of sacrificial pride physically, he still has it. Yeah, and he recognizes the PROMETHEAN desire for knowledge and power. I think that's what's more significant perhaps, and that's obviously what's also working away in Frankenstein and what people associate between the two. They both go down to carnal houses and like volts and caves to dig up the secrets of human life and death. Still bodies. Maybe they were down there together. Okay, there helping each other to so that's Prometheus. Those are the bit the best examples, all the most prominent examples of Prometheus in Manfred. We also obviously have Vaustus, and I'm talking like roadly, of this idea of someone who sold their soul, who was already very knowledgeable, sold their sold of the devil, and then the devil comes many years later to collect and he's like no, I'll burn my books, which is the heresy. He talks about how he can't sleep and he dreams and he's miserable, because sorrow is knowledge. They who know the most most mourn the deepest over the fatal truth, which is a lot, which is a lot like I'm just looking at the faust sick. I'm like, Oh, foust, I mean later evidence. He says, philosophy and science, in the springs of wonder and the wisdom of the world. I have a said, and this is how marlow's faustest and go to fouse as starts like well, I figured everything out. That's here. Maybe I should have some more stuff to figure out. He just talks to it. What's the name for a man? Servant? Jeeves left the veil runs the funny one. Good or evil, life, powers, passions. All I see and other beings have been to me as rain on the sands since that old, nameless hour. I have no dread and feel the curse to have no natural fear, no fluttering throb that beats with heart, hopes or wishes, all lurking love of something on the Earth. So he's saying, like he knows so much it's at the point now where he can't even sympathize with humanity. It's gone and the curse hasn't helped I bet the curse hasn't fucking help, and the people he calls up kind of recognize that in him. So they when the spirits come, they're like son of earth. I know, then, powers which give the power, and I know the for a man of many thoughts and deeds, of good and earlyis remember both fatal and faded in their sufferings. Also dealing with Manfred, also dealing with faust, and then later on this is the most sort of Faustian thing and links him to Frankenstein and prometheus again a little bit. He says he dived in my lone wanderings to the caves of death, searching its cause and its effect, and drew from withered bones and skulls and heaped up dust conclusions most forbidden. Then I passed the nights of science, of years and sciences untaught. So it's forbidden knowledge that he's got hold of just so cool conclusions, most forbidden. I'd like. I'd like to what honest Miss Yana like in this essay. I come to conclusions most forbidden. Honestly, hd like the job. Thanks for being creative. Manfred says he made his eyes familiar with eternity and he acknowledges with my knowledge, grew the first of knowledge. And this is the problem. If you're it's a very scholarly problem. You're forever on satiated. You're just going to look for the next thing after you get it. But he won't make a pact with anyone, the which says, if Thou wilt swear...

...obedience to my will and do my bidding, it may help beach they wishes, and he's like, I will not swear, will not be the slave of those who served me. We won't subject his will later in the whole of our money is the spirits know him, of imagine, of great power and fearful skill. So again they recognize it when they try to force him to bow and he says I arene knelt to my own desolation, which is such a Mat tico move, isn't it? There's no power greater than my own soppy feelings. And the first destiny stands up for him and says his sufferings have been of an immortal nature like our own. This this guy is so sad, like literally it's beyond human capacity to feel that. And he put the thing is he can't have the one power he needs because he won't subject himself. So it's kind of a rebellion against the foul tradition, even though it carries on the suffering of the foul tradition. He says, you know what I have known, and without power I could not amongst you. But there are power was deeper still be on. I come in quest of such to answer onto which I speak, I seek. He says, call up the dead. My question is for them. Who wouldst Thou on Carnal? That's so cool. Also, they just they just do it because he asked right like. He doesn't make a pack, he doesn't really threaten them, he's just like lease, well, they don't anything give. He says, please not even just call him up. So one without assum call up the starts, which obviously links with Frankenstein. He's calling the dead from the grave and has been trying to for a while. When he says one without a tomb does, is that a reference to what they used to do with suicides? Yeah, that's one of the things that indicates that perhaps you killed the film. Yeah, to said that holes couldn't first with the things which are forbidden to the search of Man, that with the dwellers of the dark abodes, the many evil and unheavenly spirits which walk the valley and Shade of death. Our Communist so again this idea that he accesses forbidden knowledge and at the end of the demon comes and past. Power was purchased by no compact with THY crew, but by Superior Science, Penance, daring in the length of watching, strength of mind and skill, in knowledge of our fathers, said with a clenched fist, a cast with Gusto. Yep, that's it. I didn't make a pact with you. I figured this out on my own and therefore he knows it. The thing was fasters, by the way, is that he's never actually given really any power. He could just kind of perform tricks or get the devil to do his will for him, but he's not given hardcore power. Manfred has that power. He is the most powerful, and it's Dan McDonald acknowledges. The diabolic pact was a central to the conception of witchcraft, said at and Mallius Milificaram in one thousand four hundred and eighty. It is necessary, there that they should make, they should be made, a contract with the devil, by which contract, the which truly and actually binds herself to the devil. For this indeed, by the way, normally through sex. For this, indeed, is the end of all whichcraft, whether it be the casting of spells by look or by a formula of words or by some other charm. So Manfrid's denial of a pact with the devil is syenetic. He for his refusal of any kind of exchange or interaction with anyone, even with the Shamoi Hunter, who does not ask for his obedience. Well, for anything, Mur friend does pay him. He says, Here's some coin. By Up is the most important section, which is understanding the extent to which men frids influenced by Milton Satan, which is like what I spend my life doing. Do you want to sing that again? Says that was really a song. It was just like a single bad note. I like it. What a herald he's coming. Okay, so did you notice? You we've just looked at Satan together. So did you notice any stand out similarities between Menfrid and Milton Satan? I think possibly the pride in the pride and the sort of like mind over matter, sort of seeing the self over nature. How does it go? Help is actually rooted in, say, mind over matter, like you know, Satan is like I'm my big brain is going to be bigger than any like solid, tangible obstacle there is, and I think Menford kind of has a similar right idea. He's like, my big brain is more powerful than anything anyone froze at me, even facts of the universe. For example, I am clay. Think Smash. That's second place, putting those out of clay. Even gravity must down to me. And he starts floating. Yeah, okay, so the pride is what we're talking about. Yeah, you know, if you're going to you're going to put it in one word and yeah, pride. Right. He takes his pride from saying yeah, because there's like promethean ideas there, but not really developed beyond the idea of like using knowledge. I guess it's Satanic. It's a distinctly satanic kind of pride, isn't it? It is, thinks, I think, also the psychological turmoil, but he experiences, as he kind of like degrades towards the end of the play, as also like what happens to Satan, because we see him at the start saying that, oh, this is my goal and this is my justification for my goal and let's go and get my goal. And then he can't, or he realizes he can't, and there's that slow psychological degradation as he slowly realizes it and never truly fully accepts it. Yeah, yeah, and the sort of like where is my suffering? But suffering is only in my in my brain. Yes, because we talked about the psychological degradation with Satan being a sympathetic quality. Do you remember? Yeah, I think we spent...

...a couple of episodes on that, if I remember career welcome. You're more aware. I really, really liked it and I'm hoping that I have skills I can apply to other other books. Now. So books like I was like, people are you? I'm not going to psychoanalyze anybody. If it be an insult or a compliment. If I went up to someone in thought and said to them like you know what you're you kind of remind me of the degradation of the devil, I think it wouldn't work. Anyway. Back to what you were saying, please. Yeah, I think that is something else that is continued here. This comes from Satan. I think that like process of degradation, yes, and the psychological turmoil that comes from Satan. But the fact that it has made sympathetic as well, I think also can be traced back to Milton. So we'll have a look here, and I think that's important about that is it's more sympathetic than Melton because he's a better character in most ways. Well, it's not the devil to start up the devil, and that does help us. It helps a brother out. Yeah, okay. So what how is he like Satan? We get some fililoquising going on, you notice, yes, yeah, and love Spello Quis. Yeah, and that's similar to Shakespeare as well. But I think he, like Byron, is influenced by the two. Here and there are like specific illusions, right. So he says the innate tortures of that deep despair, which is remorse without the fear of how? But all in all, sufficient to itself would make a hell of Heaven, and I'm raising my hands in the air, which is just the same sentiment, but developed a little bit further and perhaps less poetically expressed. What do you think? Yeah, no, exactly that it has miltonic vibes. He could miltonic vibes like you could trick me into saying that that's a line from Milton. I'd say, is it? But like it could be. Yeah, so in eight tortures of deep despair, again his suffering is represented sympathetically, which is remorse without the fear of how all and all sufficient to itself would make a hell of heaven. We also getting this idea that how is something you carry around with you. It's not a place, it's an experience. So saying that if he was to take his brain right now to heaven, he'd still be suffering because all of the stuff fring is he's been yeah, yeah, I know that's Pretty Satanic. But then there's more. He says the mind, which is a mortal makes itself, which is again the idea make a heaven of Hell, hell, hell of Heaven. You have some sort of agency over your psychological landscape. Except he doesn't, because he's suffering. But he's trying to suggest that he does, and this is an empowering, noble idea of people. Is it a misjudged idea? Then he can't make a hell of heaven. HMM, I don't know. He's doing a pretty good job of running his life. That's true, maybe. I think he's just kind of repeating the satanic sentiment and trying to make it more sympathetic basis here, and it with associating it with Manfred suffering rather than as an expression of kind of pride or free will. It's both, but it's more suffering. Oh yeah, that makes sense. So in Satan's case he's saying that like, Hey, if we are, like when he's stuck in Hell, he's saying that if the angels think hard enough and create hard enough and be sort of inventive, they can turn hell into heaven, whereas with Manfred it's less about his environment and more about the fact that he's suffering and he can somehow rationalize his way out of it, and that is more sympathetic because it's well, it doesn't feel as delusional to start with, even though it probably is, probably MMM anyway. Yeah, right, so developing. It's that conscious, very conscious development of these ideas that Satan had being reinvented and redeveloped here. Okay, now the quote required for its good or evil thoughts is its own origin of ill and and and its own place and time. So again, the mind in its own place can ever a heaven of Hell? How Heaven, suggesting once more that free will and agency are the sort of greatest quality someone could have and suggesting that men Ford isn't powered because he has them. So men Ford isn't powered because he has these satanic qualities, but they are more sympathetic in him because of his suffering. Yeah, checks out, checks out. Ralo, you Satan as the cause of the GOTHIC villain. He traces it back to Satan. I kind of do as well, as we're going to talk about when we get to the hard coreed gothic villains. I think like the worst satanic qualities split off into the GOTHIC villains and the best one split off into romantic heroes. I think that's what happened. That's that's a pretty sexy dichotomy, though I didn't yet. Well, you're right, a gothic villain is satanic. Caro walked into a bar and then a bunch of old men argued about it for the next three hundred he also says Hamilton Satan a related souls and night, dark brooders over deep, mysterious thoughts, who's likeness, having hitherto journeyed apart, combined in the Byronic Hero. So again there's very like ephemeral, vague idea of these ideas joining in the byronic hero, but no actual definition of the BYRONIC hero. But it's nice to see the two ideas like put next to each other because it's like Oh yeah, there could be something in this. Okay, I think the other thing going on here is fire and taking from Shakespeare, and I'm literally reading a book at the moment about Byron at the influence of Shakespeare and Byron how well he knew Shakespeare. He knew a lot of it off by heart. As it turns out. He was a big fan boy and it sort of talks about his main influences. Obviously Melton is up there, pope is up there, but this book argues that Shakespeare is like very, very prominent and you can sort of see that in the way his characters are soliloquise and a developed and have this kind of introspective to development which is quite Shakespearean. Yeah, that makes sense. When I was thinking I haven't read the book. Now, when...

I sew the SOLILOQUIES, I was like, Oh yeah, this is pretty Shakespearean. But the problem is I don't really know about many other soliloquies other than shakespeareance. So the the quis and in the ones that we studied in the Gothic, I mean the Shakespearean soliloquies really make a name for Soliloquy. Once you know them, you can, should be able to pick out the other ones. Right now. We do. We looked at Satanic soliloquies. That's MARANFORD's look. So, for those watching along at home, a soliloquies when a character comes on stage and they give a speech that is ostensibly for themselves and there's no one else around normally, or they're busy or they can't hear them, but it's obviously to the audience and the idea is they're working something out, looking through something like when you're really stressed and you start talking to yourself trying to figure out what your problem is, or if you're, you know, producing a podcast and there's only one person in it and nobody's listening. Yeah, that will that's a very long Soliloquy, I guess. So we get a number of soliloquist route man for it. For example, we are fools of time and Tara Day is still on us and still from us. Yet we live loading our life and drilling still to die. Like that's so coffy and straight out of Shakespeare. Yeah, he talks about life being a detested yoke of life, or wake up, wait upon the struggling heart, and he talks about how the soul will often pant for death and yet draws back is from a stream. And Winter, though, be chill, but be but a moments like. All right, so Peter Shot kind of brings it all together and he talks about the cold true matrix of satanism. He says by the end of the eighteen century, among the literate classes in England, belief in the existence of the devil had all but vanished. Yet if in one sense the supernatural figure was killed off, then in another it is resurrected in the form of a modern myth. This observation confirms Byron Significance, not as authoring the Satanic myth or and bodying it as a singular perversion, as some of his contemporaries conclaimed, but rather a standing all our wild I knew you'd like that, in surviving in symbolic relations to a central cultural phenomenon of his moment, what is Peter Shock saying Rowan. I think he's saying that the devil probably became some sort of like cultural motif that everyone was drawing on, and Byron is one of the people whose illusions is most famous and influential. Yeah, yeah, he good, look at you. I think it's interesting that. Yeah, the figure of Satan with like horns and evil was killed off and then we got this kind of sentimental metaphysical hero that combined Promethean ideas, of Shakespearean ideas and like humanized him. And then the Romantics take that tangle of like Ford Psychological Development and flawed moradosification and all of these things and just like, Oh, this is a fun Bouncey Bulb, let's go bounce it on some shit. It's just throw it it some dudes in the street and see what they start to do. Yeah, they just started playing around with it. He also says not Satan assumes on the romantic era are prominent scene never before or since. Nearly rivaling Prometheus, is the most characteristic mythic figure of the age, a more active and ambiguous mythic agent than the bounds of Fring forthinker and benefactor of humanity, the reimagined figure of Milton Satan, embodied for the age, the apotheosis of human desire and power. I'm incredibly pissed off because he wrote this before me. This is what I want to say, but then I want to say more, but he's written this. It's actually good in a way because I can sort of say all this. person's kind of said this already, but I can build on it this way. For those who are work writing an essay in the background, you can build off what exists. Yeah, he becomes a more important figure than prometheus at this time, because Prometheus was essentially benevolent, right, he was a good guy, whereas Satan you've got to reconcile, as we discussed at length, for good stuff with the bad stuff, and he becomes a more complicated figure that is more fun to experiment and play with, and that's super powerful because that means you have like like a turning point with heroes where you've gone from people just being good and, you know, examining them being on boats and winning wars and that sort of stuff, to people who have what is more likely like more relevant struggles. Yeah, complex and they're good and they're bad. Turning point is right. Yeah, we get genuinely incredibly psychologically complicated characters that that take on these satnic satanic ideas that we didn't really previously have. And we have the idea of Satan as an incredibly complex figure, which is something we didn't previously have. So all of that stuff we were talking about in paradise lost. It was a turning point that it humanized the level. Here you see it in action. He is taking those characteristics and playing around with another character, using them, which is fun, and so that sort of introduced a new concept of complex carrotic character to the yet to the culture, and thanks. That's it. And and your thesis argues this is why we have backman man. When you when you put it like that, it sounds useless, but but yes, essentially it was a it was a downhill slope. It was a slippery slope from Satan really that the romantic story character, and they're like, I can make him worse, and then now we have bat man, the joker. Yet happening? Yeah, I know you're right. There's probably some like points along the way that helped the development, like the gothic villain and like Shakespeare's obviously significant as well. We couldn't have done it without other stuff. It was. It...

...was a combination of things, but you could definitely couldn't have done it without Melton Satan, and shock kind of has a theory for this, which I think is important. He notes that, since Faust one arrived in British culture relatively late, having been largely ignored until the alumine, it was Melton Satan not go to his metam mephist ofili is that answered the artistic and ideological demands of English writers, including Byron. While Melton Satan is without doubt and understandably, a greater presence than Mephisto in British romantic writing, it would be careless not to entertain the possibility the go to his character influenced Byron and so on and so far. So we sort of talked about that already, but you can see this like we're acknowledging the fact that Satan was this huge cultural presence because probably battle and Callahan similarly talks about the poet hero in the work of iron and Shelley, because these are the two poets that most consciously work on these ideas. She says, despite both poets possessing different essetic sensibilities and poetic preoccupations across both sections of the book. From I showed Byron and Shelley to stage this struggle to be in hero language. They poet hero grapples with the reality that the poet encounters or creates. The resulting orchestrated conflict becomes a creative principle central to their poetry and drama. Byron, shall I perform the drama of poetic creation with poetic heroism as a locus of their aspiration and doubt. So like they're playing around with what the hero is. Okay, see, to see. Is that kind of saying that, like the orchestrated conflict with many of Byron's heroes, is this sort of metaphysical struggle and became a sort of like a characteristic of his work at some point. Well, yes, I mean it's in both most of the Byron and heros is this kind of struggle against some oppressive, tyrannical force, whether it be metaphysical or patriarchal or whatever. He I mean, as we talked about, for this is a theme in Byron's life. He wanted to depict struggles against tyranny. That's why he loved Napoleon so much. No, nod. I've also got another vague definition of BYRONIC hero here, he says the true Baronic Curo is a poet, the hero who battles the verbal multiverse and the self to discover words adequate to expression. Shelley's poet hero, instead of to cry in the limits of big existence, explores the precise nature of the relationship between his State and conceptions. Th All of poet comes to the primary fixation of Shelley's work, as the poet explores and experiments with how to lay claims the title of poet Hero. So the Viron here might be a poet hero that's kind of worked in the work, worked out in the work of Byron and and Percy. Shelley. He's interested in the limits of his existence and trying to figure that out. So it's just an introspective hero who, like tries to work through him himself by being poetic about it. I mean, you could probably teach a bug how to write poetry and sit them in front of a mirror and it doesn't make it a byronic hero. No, it makes it cough car. That was that was the best thing you said. Not Know that was. That was a like that's the that's the funniest thing you said. No, that's not even to write it. That was really good. Okay, so it's a weird quote, but it kind of helps us to understand certainic development, or at least that there was this focus on this style of character development. I'm CHLARA tweet. I use. The rhetoric of Byronic satanism does not necessarily imply a direct, unmediated relation with Byron's personal beliefs. Indeed, Byron problem flies the idea of any kind of religious belief as a form of will, intention and agency, which is important. That okay, drum again also points out on a footnote in Byron and Romanticism that byrons rhetorical rhetorical management of these tales is a romantic equivalent for the rhetorical techniques used by Melbourn, which will most recently described by Stanley fish in surprised by sin. Both poets at intellectual traps for their readers, but Milton's technique is employed to strengthen the reader's faith, whereas Byron supports a new philosophy that calls all into doubt. I'm very happy I found that footnote that's really good. It's a good yeah, yeah, do we agree? I think so. Yeah, and it's and it provides a nice clean line between Milton and Byron as well, which is nice, only only through reader reception theory, which bothers me, but I still like it. It also means we have to acknowledge that fishes may be right or partly right. All right, so he's clearly developing the idea of the satanic hero through the process of characterization, through the qualities of characterization, through the simple and making satanic traits seem more sympathetic, and through the direct illusions. So we've got a whole my asthma of characters coming together that people say is the Barona Carey. They look at Manfred's out by Roon Akira. If people will push they might take off the carrow but, as we discussed, not Super Gothic. Then they might cause bits of the child of nature. There's bits of the wandering outlaw, there's bits of the of her Hazarus, Satan, prometheus, but then it's like, oh, I don't know what kind of hero. And Manford is though. Oh so he's a bionic cure his hero sup okay, so the other version of Manfred, and this was the first rote version written, and in it the Abbot is the bad guy and he threatens manfred and Manfred dies as a result of an unexplained fire. And the new version he defies the demon who comes to collect his soul, saying it had not been purchased by compact, and dies of his own accord, which you could argue does reclaim something of the wraught up death of fouster's a little bit. Don't know what that was about. So why does it change? Well, as William Gifford, who was something of a kind of paternal figure to Byron, turns out he was quite mean too, Keats in a memo to Johnie Mbury. This is fun bit. Actually, no, no, as it aside here. Right. So, you know, doing a PhD, you you kind of explore pockets at a time, you get your overview and then you start digging down into the pockets. Right. So I've been I knew Keats and I've been borrowing and I've done this to...

...each one. So I did it to like God, when I did it to hazard, I did it to Mary Shelley, I did it to Percy Shelley. Obviously Byron was first and Milton was long ago. But I spent the last couple of months just like digging around in the Keats and pit, having a great time, just kicking shit up everywhere. Yeah, but the thing is, as you read like multiple biography's of each and like know their work and know the scholarship on it, you start to like make these connections between names. So someone that's just UN mentioned in a Byron biography is like, for suddenly very significant in Keats and you're like we know this guy, and then you're like you're getting hundred year old gossip. You're getting the tea from different sources. It's very fun to say this guy was an asshold of Keats. He was with mean and then Keats also wanted John Murray to be his publisher, very briefly, but he knew it wasn't going to wasn't going to go for him. See, Keats was made fun of because he was a part of the so called Cockney School, which was sort of looked down on for their lack of education and lack of good breeding. So William Gifford, he says on receiver the First Manuscript of Third Act, of the Third Act, my dear sir, I found her parcel here at for so that is hardly possible to do anything by post time. I love this shit. Nor, indeed, can I say much more. I've marked a passage or to which might be omitted with advantage, but the act requires strengthening. This is me giving feedback. There's nothing need to bear it out but one speech. The fire is despicable and the servants uninteresting. The same with the Friar. Ought to be imposing, and for that purpose the FRY should be a real good man, not an idiot. More dignity should be lent to the catastrophe. See how beautifully our old pilot poet Marlow has wrought up the death of faustus several of our old plays of scenes of this time, but they strove to make them impressive. Nature to not should not end in this feeble way after beginning with such magnificence of promise. And the demon should have something to do with the scene. Do not send my words to Lord B but you may take hint from them. Say That the last act bears no proportion in lengths to the previous. Sincerely, William Griffith. And what did he do here? He said the words to Lord be directly. Good, very good. No, let's just put sodium in the bathtub, like the nineteen century equivalent of forwarding on and see seeing in if it just shits his pants. I would that was that was scathing. Yes, yeah, that the third act is complete. Booksh yes. So on March tense one thousand eight hundred and seventeen, Murray wrote to Byron and closing Gifford's letter and writing, as I told you in my last letter, that Mr g was very much please, was pleased with back to and, as you know, he takes the paternal interest in your literary wellbeing. He's crafting a shit sandwich right now. That's what he's doing. I'm a supervisor does that. He does not buy any means like the conclusion. Now I am venturing upon the confidence with which your Lordship has ever honored me and sending the enclosed I fear I am not doing right, I am not satisfied, but I venture and then in truth, that you will make a point of returning them. Turns out Maury's been reading too much of the Austin he was publishing. I have told him that I've made a letter from them, but there is so much friendly good sense in them that I cannot refrain. I'm sure you can, and I am almost sure that you will improve what begins and continue so beautifully. In a drama of any kind, the last act is the difficulty, and this you must surmount. Surmount the difficulty. Lord be, that was a good ste it's a good sandwich. Yeah, I don't see. How do you? How do you think Byron would have reacted to that? And not well, I think he would have had a little tentrum, thrown some soda water, yeah, at someone. Absolutely. The Abbot is become a good man and the spirits have brought in at the death. You will find, I think, some good poetry in this new act here and there and, if so, printed without sending me further proofs, under Mr Gifford's correction, if he will have the goodness to overlook it. I think even read that is like quite forgiving. Or you can read it is quite terse. HMM, like, don't send me any more drafts. Get Him to look at it. I'm busy with my monkeys. Probably both. So there's that. All right. Let's talk about incest. Okay, I didn't have any. I don't have any jokes up my sleep? This is okay. So incest. It is a hallmark of gothic fiction. You get it in the garden, in the castle of the Toronto in particularly. You get in the mysterious mother. There's a lot of it. We know it was. You know edipus through itatapus is based on this hippolytus. It's everywhere. It's from, always all the hippolotis. I think is an interesting example because it's the so there's a married couple, theseus and Phaedra, and then theseus is son from Hippolyta, who he raped, is hippolytus, and then he comes back and he marries Phaedra and Phaedra is hippolytus's age. He's a much younger she's a much younger wife and Hipoloti falls in love with Theseus, the same age, much sexier version of theseus. So I mean then she kills herself because she can't be with him. But whatever. You know, everyone's like, oh, incest, but it's I don't know, you know, it's complicated. They're not. While I sound like the devil's advocate, but they're not. What related are they? She said it. Not Me. No, she's just getting with stepmother's sayings. Yeah, and yeah, yeah, has steps on, which is okay. It's weird, but okay. MAKES PEOPLE A com incest is a hall mark of the Gothic Villain and you'd be surprised who talks about this. Astlet he wrote an article called incestor's romantic symbol. He says...

...it has universal interest. Incest is an dramatic theme, involving as it does a passionate conflict between individual desire which may or not, may or may not be universally shared, the most universal tabooze. He also says the Gothic uses of the incest theme to symbolize a basically a rational element in the order of things, a capricious fate, or to symbolize the psychologically dark and irrational, the unconscious and unnatural desires and the heart of man. So he takes the psychoinolytical approach. Essentially, Railo says a similar thing. He says it is classifiable, as it is with melodramatic materials in general. It appears specially developed in those times when Romanticism surges nearest to its ultimate pathological frontiers. The desire to deal with such a film theme is in itself a pathological feature of romantic psychology. So it's half I've said. They're vague and unhelpful, judgmental. Think perhaps he also says Barron never deals with incest as a misfortune occasion by ignorance, as you sort of see an EEDIPUS, etc. But always as a deliberate action. The people know they're being incestuous, whereas in something like the monk, he doesn't know it's his sister when he rapes her. Yeah, or Ila. So it is a different sort of psychological termoilway getting with yes, now, this is significant and important to make. We're going to look through the evidence of the incests and we're going to talk about like whether or not it seems sympathetic. So let's go. He said is at the start. I never quelled an enemy save in my just defense. My wrongs roll on those I should have cherished. So we get this hint that he hurt people he loved. He goes on and when he's talking about a start he says she was like me and linniments, her eyes, her hair, have features, all to the very tone even of her voice. They said we they said we like to mind, but softened all and tempered into beauty. And she had the same loan thoughts and wanderings, the quest of hidden knowledge in our mind to comprehend the universe, as well as tenderness, humility and humility. I loved her and destroyed her. So she's very similar to him. He's see, it's HMM. Well, it wasn't just sticking back to Milton Satan, not to bring him up again. No, not specifically saying, just thinking of Paradise Laws. It's he's being a cut apart to Adam. Is that she's like Adam, but tempered and soften. Yes, well, it's the beautiful and the sublime that we're seeing. So man for the sublime and then a start is beautiful as well. But to me I've always looked at it and gone all. But she kind of has sublime qualities. She's the quest of hidden knowledge and a mind to comprehend the universe like that's still bad. Sublime, and she doesn't appears as a fucking ghost. So that, yeah, pretty freaky. Now loves me too much, as I loved that he says to her when she comes back as a ghost. We were not made to torture US each other. The where the deadliest sin to love as we have loved. So that's the big hint. That's the take him. Yeah, I think the only way that you could like fight about this is like, are they siblings or are they twins, because is it what's worse? MM. Yeah, I think you have to ask George our our Martin, and then obviously the servants say later on. This is lust. Sort of last big hint with him, the sole companion of his wanderings and watch things, her whom, all earthly things that live, the only thing he seemed to love, as he indeed by blood was bound to do. The lady a start his and he was cut off. So I mean byrons just fucking with this. He's literally being like Mr and the next rhyme ends with and dramatic pause at it. I like has some advertisements to do that thing where they suggest they're about to say the word ass and then this just like a beat. That's what he did. So I mentioned that. You know there were previous examples. So we've got horrace, will Paul's a mysterious mother someone in sixty eight. You've got the Romans of the forest of an hynd and ninety one. We've got Matthew Lewis has the monk. It's also hinted out in the bride of a beatos and Byron says in a letter. None else could there obtain that degree of intercourse leading to genuine affection. I had nearly made them too much akin to each other. He's talking about the brother and sister, or the two main characters in it, and they're the wild passions of the east and some of the great examples in Alfierry, which is mirror se one thousand eight hundred and eighty nine fords, a pity, she's a r one thousand six hundred and thirty three, and Chilla, the bride of Messina, one thousand eight hundred and three, to stop short of antiquity. So he's saying like it's a sympathetic it's a nice trait. We like this, he says. The best poets do it. It's also in shelley. I need to point that out before we sort of go on. Shelley has incest themes in a last most famously the the the cent she, the Cent Chi, the his Italian one, the revolt of Islam. I Bi Scirit a pips, phips could blee and then the need. So it's there and it's a thing that's being done by the people. But Byron's use of the theme, I think, is significant. Why do you think? Might that might be because we are meant to feel sorry for him instead of like but why would byron be particularly interested in insect? Ah, because he is an own right and own voices writer in this particular city, cracist what he preached. Yeah, here's because he fucked his half sister right so often. I mean, as we said. You know, readings of Byron often use biographical information, which I think is hard not to do because of how much of Byron's own biography he very clearly and pointedly and purposely put in the play. But then, because of Freud, people often try and do psychoanalytical readings and just say Ow, it's representation of his own anxiety around...

...this. I think, though, Joseph Carroll is quite right when he says Freudian readings of literary text almost inevitably introduced to storting ideas of incest and and calt traced alfstration anxiety and a form of literary analysis that appeals to evolutionary psychology. Rather than Freudy and psychoanalysis will have a vastly improve access to the deep structure of literary representations. So basically, psychnolytical psychoanalytical theory is hogwash for the most part. What I think is more helpful here to understanding than you've got to have to sort of hang on with me for a bit because I'm not sure this is fully right, but I think this is a significant contribution to the discussion. If we're doing if we're already doing a biographical reading and we're already doing Freudian readings, and people keep doing Freudian readings, I think we have to at least leave some space, a tiny box, for an evolutionary psychology reading. Sorry for those that don't know literally, Darwinism is a developing school of literary theory that takes ideas from evolutionary psychology and I basically applies them to literature to helpless try and understand them in a different or more in depth way. And by evolutionary ideas that means like understandings about family relationship, social relationships, why we read, how we read, why? That's helpful to us, but I think it is quite helpful for helping us understand things like incest, which have been shown to be evolutionary adaptations. Right, you have to avoid incest in order to encourage diversity in the gene pool and, in turn, reduce the risk of genetic disease, produce healthy descendants and ensure the persistence of the individual's DNA. Right, that's evolutionary at work. So, if incest avoidance is part of keeping the gene pool diver how do we create incest avoidance? And the Guy who first came out with it, his name was Edward met Western mark, and he first hypothesized that the recent individuals feeling an eight aversion to incest with an one thousand eight hundred and ninety one, was because they became averse to sexual behavior with those they grew up in close proximity too. So basically, anyone that they grew up with, siblings, parents don't bone them because the gene pool goes out the window. And then since then, Western marks, there has large living supporter by evolutionary biologists like this. Yes, it makes sense. We see it now as an adaptation. So, with that in mind, think it's worth pointing out that Byron didn't grow up with Augusta. He like knew of her and was writing let us to her while he was at Harrow School, but he didn't know her and he didn't grow up in close proximity with her and he only sort of rejoined with her as a young adult and a young man. And I think part of this is, like Byron, felt lonely with everyone else, you always struggled to get on with woman. He had this very like strong relationship with his sister and that grew into a romantic relationship and he didn't actually have the aversion sort of that had developed to stop him. But new from a social perspective it was bad. So I think it's one of these very rare examples where it's like it's incest, but because they haven't grown up with that adaptation in place, he doesn't feel that way, even though him and his society think he should feel that way. So He's constantly walking around with this inner turmoil, knowing that I shouldn't have slept with my sister or had any kind of romantic relationship with my sister, but also it was pretty great and I loved her. And what do you people care and why should you have a say in it? So he kind of defends it and represents it sympathetically. My overall point here, right, isn't all these other examples of the Gothic hero where they've had an incestuous relationship, it's often an expression of patriarchal violence or oppression, whereas here, I mean you could do a feminist reading and read it as Oh, he oppressed augustrum whatever, but I just don't think there's any evidence there for that. Like what is also going on is he's trying to defend this kind of relationship between brother and sister and showing how how much suffering Manford goes through. After that, you feel sympathy for him and and his plight. What do you think to lock it's I think so. I think it's maybe the clearest sort of reading you can do from Byron's life to what he's expressing in his point, and I think so. Yeah, I mean challenge man if you are I I'm still trying to develop this idea, but I think it contributes. I think it's another explanation, it's something else and like, yes, you can't empirically prove that Byron slipt with his sister, but most barrons goalars agree. We're pretty sure he had a baby with her. The letters are pretty damning, particularly what we have left. I mean the worst ones were burned. So what we have left? If they're damning, I hate to think what was gotten rid of lost you that you're dead. No, I'm thinking okay. Byron also says in Kane, by the way, because obviously the first family everything is in ssslaiter asks Lucifer whether or not loving Kane is a sin and he says no, not yet, it will one day be it. Well, it one day will be in your children acknowledging that, like in very fallen society, it will become a sin, sort of suggesting in kind of like not necessarily pretty fallen society, but Earlan Society, Early Society. It wasn't it was a better time or something like barn. Clearly feel sympathy to these kind of feelings, perhaps because he didn't understand them himself, because he didn't have them, because he didn't grow up in close proximity with his sister. The same thing now is you're like, Oh, you know, I knew them when I was very young. They're like a brother. So no, that's really gross. Yeah, no, that makes sense. Definitely. So he would have seen, if we were going to go with this reading, he would have seen the aversion to incestors more of a sort of social convention, yes, and a taboo, yea, other than yeah, and I and look, it...

...might be a bit of both. You might. There might be a day, one day, where all social convention is gone and it's okay. I would argue, based on my understanding of evolution. Never reason a psychology, that people would still want, not want to sleep with those that they grew up in close proximity to, even though doing so would have like no adverse ramifications because asum you'd used contraception and everyone would be a consenting adult and there's like no technical problem. But everyone feels weird about it because we have developed incestor versions. So you are developing an idea. Yeah, and understand. I don't. I don't want to just repeat what you've said back. Promise. Okay. So my whole point here is he makes the Gothic Villain, he makes one of the huge whole marks of the gothic villain, more sympathetic. I think that blends in with all of this other stuff he's doing, making Satan more sympathetic, taking these ideas of the wandering Jew of the Byronic Curea, the Baronic cure is a hugely sympathetic figure who is still like incredibly problematic at his very core. Right. So we're dealing with these satanic themes, we're dealing with gothic villain themes. It all comes together and one of the one of the ways that baron could do that was because he had the ability to sympathize, is something that nobody else could possibly yeah, at least in the case of Menford. Yeah, and I mean, as I said, incest is kind of a common theme in his work. I guess it's the thing of like how much is it, how much is it a theme of the period and something that he was just sort of playing with, but I just think the relationship with a Gusta would have made it much more personal from hit for him. It's also in Paradis lost, by the way, there's that incestuous Relationship Between Sind death and Satan. It's generally a wholemark of evil, is the point, but here it's somehow a whole mark of Satan being a sympathetic figure. He is a better figure because of his loving relationship with his sister. Even we recognize that. So Yeah, act, yeah, I know that makes sense actually, because the same thing that sort of damns men for it, which is his incestuous relationship, is the one thing that makes him more sympathetic. Because when you said love is one of the it's something that like redeeming quality. It's redeeming quality, but also like, again, from an evolutionary psychological perspective, the capacity did love, the capacity to care for your children, the capacity for essentially engaging our altruistic behaviors, pro social behavior other people in society, whether that be in your immediate family or beyond, is an indicated to other people that you are a good person. Like we're meant to read that and make conclusions about that and in terms of our own social dealings with that person. And one of the running theories is, and we'll talk about this later, it's developed by sort of Brian Boyd, Joseph Carol, various others are Jonathan Gopshaw. They're talking about shop as acting. The reason we like storytelling, on the reason we like story so much as it creates the conditions where we can practice this kind of social interaction or very low stakes environment where you go up so like Satan, turns out he was a bad guy. Oh well, there's no social like consequences for what I did and you can just kind of experiment with these figures. It creates conditions for social experimentation without consequence, like all three seasons of Hannibal. Yeah, so it's essentially very important for us to learn social codes of behavior, whether they be good or bad. Is the point. So the ones where our attention is drawn to characters because they are interesting, but the reasons they are interesting is often in line with these kind of social parameters. Right. So we think, Oh man, it is a good guy because he's nice to sister, he's nice to people, he's nice to the hunter, is nice to the witch and then she's mean to him at the end. He's nice to the Abbot even though he's bothering him, and he tells the debt demon to sot off, like he doesn't actually do anything antisocial to anyone, on manipulative to anyone, even though he goes to the caves of death. And we look at that girl. He's a good guy, but he has fucked his sisters who, in the end he's characterized by this sort of like deep set contradiction in being both a good and bad person, Etan Satan or all roads lead back to say, yeah, exactly, it's and it becomes very difficult for us to kind of reconcile and decide what we think about this figure because in many ways he's likable to us, but also many ways were like no, thank you, which is where we're still talking about him. He's later. So I think that is just like to add on the existing scholarship and they and talking about the character types that exist within men for it and what Byron is trying to do. that. I think that is the kind of more modern theory and discussion that you kind of bring, can bring to it to examine not only did the development of existing characteristics, but like why those are interesting to us still now and why they're interesting to them then and why they are experimenting with those ass so join us next time on all of the Devil's Party. Join US for sin, Sin and delicious sin. We're going to live deliciously. What are we going to be doing? Byron? I think it's easy to start with byrons from around a little bit and development confidence in the zoom out from there. Josh's just appalled I'm not going at order and I'm like no, no, no,.

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