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Of the Devil's Party – Manfred, by Lord Byron

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Did you know Alice does another podcast called Of the Devil's Party, where they and their friend Rowan do a deep dive into dark hero archetypes? 

It's really good. You should listen to it! ...It also might help explain what all this "Byronic" stuff we keep talking about is.

On this bonus/preview episode Alice and Rowan begin their discussion of Gothic villains by examining Byron’s 1817 closet drama Manfred and its debt to the Gothic tradition. The pair discuss Byron’s life, work,  and experimentation with dark hero archetypes, and whether there is  actually such as thing as a Byronic Hero. They consider the way Byron  experiments with Dark Heroism by combining existing heroic archetypes  and traditions such as The Wandering Jew, the Child of Nature, The Hero  of Sensibility, Prometheus, Satan, the Gothic Villain and Faustus.

Subscribe to Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/

Support Unseen Academicals on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

A Doctor Prometheus podcast.

Those of you have been paying attentionwill know that Alice hurts another podcast with their friend Roan calledof the Devil's Party, where they go into the history of Satanic Heros andRomantic and Gothic literature, and they just put out an episode on LoadBarns, Closet Drama Manford, which is where the tradition of the Bironic carethat we've been talking about sort of begins. So as well as encouraging youto go and listen to that podcast as well. I thought this would be a goodepisode slip in between the masqueraded episode, where we talked a lot aboutbaron and the development of the Byronic hero and the Cape Juggleepisodes where we're going to be talking a lot about baron as well. Withregard to the bad pire tradition, which he is very foundation, alter, they've,good episodes up on Nilson's, Paradise Lost and Charlotte Dacres, a foyerwhich is a really cool book that you should all go and read, and I believethey have episodes about Matthew Lewis is the monk and barns cane coming outsoon as well. But I think this is a good place to jump on. That also givesa good introduction to barn and the bironic tradition, which is somethingwe keep coming back to a lot on on saying academicals. It definitely helpsto have read the play for this episode, but you don't need to. I think Alicedoes a really great job of explaining the plot and a lot of background andcontext of Barn. So I think it's definitely accessible. If you are intothis sort of style analysis, we do on ancing academicals. I definitely foundit really interesting and a good refresher. While I'm researchingeverything for Carper Jugglin. Sorry, I highly recommend it so give to listen,and if you like what you hear you can go and subscribe to of the Devil'sParty as well. There should be a link in the description of this and everyother episode of unseen academicals, so yeah. If you want to support, Alice, goand do that Hell, Satan episode, the Devil's body, My name isAlice and I'm Rowin and we are back and were we in man friend Man Fritz. Wemade it. It was an of the Devil's party. We are still of the devils party. I'mexcited about Manfred. I know you're excited about Manford, it's the firstother text. We S A floyer, yeah yeah, I suppose, okay, so then it's like thebook end for the flower. We started, so the Paradise Lost we've book. intedparadise lost this Seflor and with men Fred. That was a good choice. It was agood choice and I think now this point is about the passions actually, but Icould make a bet take, but essentially what I've done is I've found beganpassions on hand for the part with the Shammar Hunter, the Shemi Hunter M andI feel, like they've, got the same vibes. But what I'm going to do is I'mgoing to like do a closer reading of it. I'm going to explain you: Did thepassions come out? Let me figure that out really quickly. Okay, so thepassions is published in eighteen. Eleven Cube, okay, interesting becauseManford is eighteen. Eighteen, O o n eighteen vente. I do we know when Baronwas writing. It yeah, eighteen, sixteen eighteen, seventeen a year yeah! Soit's after the first HMM, so Byron Stall from day come possibly it like. Ithink it's possible because we know that he's done things with a t likepoetry, but one of the things I found really interesting about the shomwherehunter scene in the passions was that it followed a guy walking around onsome high mountains and contemplating how it brings his soul above his clayand talks about how like he sees God in the splendor instead of in churches asublime so the return to nature sots words worthy and yeah, but like then helike extrapolates, and he talks about a whole bunch of nonsense. Romania, butyeah, we'll see how they right so man for it. We now begin our examination ofGothic of villains and heroes and we're going to find out that there's a veryfine line between the two honestly and Medford's kind of an odd place to startbecause it's long after the GOTHIC has initially developed, but I think it'san interesting place to start because there's so many traditions workingwithin Manford and we can sort of talk about how they culminate and then lookbackwards. So so that's the goal. Fighting I'm really excited because Ithink Manford was one of the first poems I studied in unit in a GothicShan they go evie. To what extent is it Gothic we're going to discuss todaywe're now turning our attention to sort of the eighteenth and nineteenthcentury we've been in the seventeenth century with Paradise Lost Time, butwe're moving on. We've got things to do, and this is a time of hugeexperimentation with different types of fiction, particularly gothic fictionand explosion in the writing of them, which Byron is certainly a part of theother good thing about Manfred is it's very accessible. I think it quite easyto read yeah. No, I think so as well, Boris paced, well yeah. I only had togoogle words like two or three times reading through it so yeah it off. As Isay, it kind of offers, an introduction to these big gothic ideas. So what wegoing to be doing more of obviously with paradise, lost cause it's so hard,there's so much of it. We really work through the text with the plot, but nowwe're going to start moving on to assuming people understand the text ofever at the text and then building on there. So if you haven't read it, youmight want to go. Read it before the class that you're you are preparing you by listening tothis podcast. So it's also really short, and there are a couple of free onlineversions you can find because a lot of firin works are free online or throughyour library, so Peter Cockran cos. Cochran is a great force to this hereas a website all about Byron and has a...

...bunch of Pedis on there that he has puttogether. He sort of edited the pollens himself with the appropriate footnotesand context and introductions he's an amazing scholar, and I got reallyexcited because I thought Oh wow yeah. I could have him as my examiner, buthe's dead so yeah same as Foss live. I don't know whatI'm going to do anyway. So we'll briefly talk about the plot. Don't we?Yes, let's do. Let's talk about the pot, I think that's important right. So itopens in his study. Manford is in his in his gothic hole in his castle and hedidn't. I don't think there was much like description of what was going onthere, but when we knowing there was Gothic, I go in there and I startpicturing like arcane books and like Shit, bubbling and beakers and likelike skeletons on the walls and s and dots. Yes, it's the theme, yeah andhe's in his t his study in his castle, reflecting on his suffering, despitehis unparalleled power and knowledge, caussee and he's sucking because he's beencursed and the type of curse he's Bein us with his one. That means that hecan't die and he has to suffer forever. But he doesn't tell us why or who gavehim the curse or at anything more than that, but he decides he gets ittogether and he says I'm going to call the spirits one more time and see ifthey can help me uses an immense amount of callot's meant to demonstrate justhow powerful Medford is, and he asks for forgetfulness and oblivion. Andwhat do they tell him? Can't help you mate? Essentially, yes, he's to is off. Did he put that in the poem?What did he? What did he ryman trying to come in something that runs withoffer? Yeah yeah me so after he fails with spirits,he kind of resolves to die. He Claims Young Frow, which is a mountain in theSwiss Alps, and it's pretty huge and you can google it. Now. It's Bout j? UN G, F, R, a you, Google that have a look. Imagine standing on the top ofthat, and the point is the fact that you know: not only is he so conolly cancall the spirits. He can also climb this huge mountain in a place thatother people can't go. The and the other things up. There are these liketiny plants that barely grow in like the birds and it's things like that.It's birds of prey that are up there and a sham. I had there's one guy looking for goatpresident dear! Is that what it is it's a De special kind of goat they're likefluffy? I think it's a special kind of goat that just keeps on popping up inliterature for no other reason, because they're in the high mountain places andpoets going in high mountain places to think about things, apparently theycan't think about it at a lower altitude. Most poets, I know, have atsmart. I don't understand how this works so Manford's on the edge of young frow,and he thinks I'm going to jump this. Is it I'm doing it and right at thatmoment the shamoy hunter drags him back from the Ledge and he's going. You areinsane men and he recognizes in Manford the trait of nobility and power. Hesees him and we sort of get this third party perspective as well confirmingour suspicions, which is cool. He offers Manford wine and God and helpall of which he refuses and he goes a little mad and then sis, there's bloodon the room of the of the cup and the hunter very fairly comes to theassumption that Medford is Cogon Hanes, because Sir Manford sees the butt onthe cup and then the hunter. He seems that he's mad yeah yeah, that's a fairassumption. Yeah something's going on so man for doesn't get to kill himself.So then he's a bit sad and he calls the witch of the Alps again a huge feet fora mere mortal and he calls so mostly so he can talk to her. So he's sad, sadand lonely, and he wants someone to talk to which is honestly. The story ofI think most women's life. This great, I just want to just want to talk to youjust want to unload some emotion, I'm busy, I'm weather systems. What do youlike? Go? I literally put down a tornado to come here and you're sayingwe just want to talk o the washing yes, so he finally relates some of hisbackstory and we get this idea that he was in some sort of tragic romanticrelationship. There are hints of Incest and somehow he lost her and it sort ofimplied that perhaps it was suicide and perhaps it was because it was anincestuous relationship and that he's tortured by the guilt from this and hasbeen spending the rest of his life trying to find a way to bring her backand she says. Look I can help you for a price, your soul and he's like no- andthis is something recurring about Manford he refuses to submit to anyoneelse's. Will he won't subject himself to a power other than his own, which ispretty cool? It is cool he's, making he's not actually doing any sort ofdevilish pacts. So if someone tells you that this poem is about a guy who makesa pack with the devil in it, yeah push the books, push the palm slowly acrossthe table and look them in the eye and say read this and say that again, youknow he's a bit pissed off, because the lady he forced to listen to him talkdidn't want to help him so take notes. There goes to the whole of our manesfor help. This time they pity him and they marvel at his power. It's thefirst time their spirits are sort of given him that kind of respect, despitebeing much more powerful than him, and he talks to nemesis and they're like nodown phonemes and he's like no, and they kind of respect that about him, Nand eventually they do raise the...

...spectre of a start. Who is his lover?We is Sim and he kind of freaks out he's only upset more and she doesn'treally give him much to work with. I she disappears he's sad. He returns tohis castle and by the way, there are two different versions of Manfred we'regoing to talk about the earlier one and why it got changed in a second, butwe're just going to go with the canonical one for now. So in the lastact, Manford is at his castle. His servants are talking about him andthey're. Like he's insane. His guy he's got a history as gone down. An Abbot comes to visithim and wants to help him, and the servants are like US know, don't wasteyour time, but he is insistent and Manfred says: Please leave now and hedoes. But then he comes back as a demon kind of turns up and tries to take men,Ford, Saul and men for its like. No, my soul does not belong to you and then hedies, but it's on his own terms and when he kind of chooses to an IT's ferambiguous, exactly what kills him or whether the curse is just finallylifted or anyway he dies, and he says Tis not so difficult to die, which isalways interested me because he's wanted to die since the beginning ofthe book, the Esrkine trying to throw himself off mountainsand she's just been getting in the way he said a time, Don yeah, that's mad, for I do do you like it. Ikind of liked it. It was short, is to the point. There was less like dramathan I thought I was like. You could really kind of like make this into alike. It could have been something as big as a shakespearian play likethere's the opportunity for that. So I was curious about why it was so shortthat not in the sense that I'm like picking on it for being short, probablybecause it's not it's not meant to be a play player, it's a closet drama,meaning you're meant to just sort of read it on a Sunday afternoon with acup of tea yourself and imagine it all. So where is a Shakespeare and playneeds to have you know the fireback structure, the complicated plots all ofthat stuff? This is just like a little story about Manfredo we're going totalk about the influences influences on it and like that'll, help, explain whyit is the way it is. I think a little bit more for you see if it's so short.Why are we still talking about it as much as we're talking about Shakespeare,because it's so good and we're going to talk about why? First, we must talkabout Lord George, Gordon Byron, iron. Yes, this name. I know this one. Wehave my boy spoken about this thing on linktum. Just I'm going to hit themajor plot points here, Fantino Card, because if you get me started onByron's life life story, we will be here for hours. I recommend a sourcefor this or, if you're, looking to read a good buyer and biography. There aremany. The problem is you get early ones which are incredibly hies and unfair,and then you get later ones that almost a like too much criticism is going onin them of the work and the port like it's not just looking at the events andthings influencing them and the evidence of they're then sort of doinghistoriography on the events and applying capital, t theory or capital Ddiscourse, and that drives me insane and I think the best one is probablystill the first one I read, which was Fiona macarthy's Viron life and legend,which is fairly thorough. Give you a good overview and you can flip throughit to sort of key periods if you're just want to get for an essay, and youneed to be able to put stuff in an introduction. So there you go Byron,Aright, tweet from Melbourne, university or University of melber inscandalous, Byron Rights that contemporaries called him: a coolunconcerned, fiend, an unsexed serse, Wild Siren, Charming Apostle ofinfidelity spoiled child of fame, a man of genius whose part is pervertedEngland's best poet and her guiltiest son. She says they said his writing wasa perpetual monument of the Exalted Intellect and the depraved Heart in thevery suicide of genius, so we're dealing with a locker which is ratherfunny because he don't he dealt with a lot and he and a lot going on, but yeahmy gosh. What I like what a thing to put on akind of grave yeah. I like the idea like I am a I ama monument of exalted intellect and in the depraved heart, but maybe I'm notdepraved enough. I don't, I don't think so. I think I think the fairly welladapted an I were well adapted, no, even as as a person he's veryintriguing, especially ye like just like his forms, because there oh well.Well, he is, you know his life kind of challenges, our expectations and ow. Isit ethics or morals, which I in a my vote, yea? What Ryan is talking about? The barnborn seventeen? Eighty eight, he dies in eighteen, twenty four, so he diesvery young in his is his father. There's like a there's now, a book by H.It's called the fall of the House of Biron, which is very cool, looks intothe Byron family history before Baron and basically makes the argument thatthey were all scum backs. Cheating lines got bags just this one could rappoetry, yes, so his father is basically a pirate and disappear a seaman, hismother. He has a complicated relationship with for the entirety ofhis life. Yeah, you be unsurprised here,...

...it's complicating. I leave it at thatas a child. She would left him in the care of a nurse who almost definitelysexually assaulted him with which he suggests or implies led to some of hismore what he refers to was kind of depraved sexual behavior et ce an butthe reality is. He was just traumatized from a very young age by his treatmentof the women around him, including his nurse and his mother, and like many ofthe Romantics kind of, carries a suspicion about this. So there's thathe's educated at Harrow and then he sent to Cambridge. He shows apropensity for poetry or very young age and write sonnets and things to it,cousins and girls that he likes and there's stories here. He eventuallygoes to London and then he very famously travels to the east and hegoes to sort of different locations than people generally do on the grandtour because of the wars that have been going on in France and what not it waskind of not safe on and not practical to go through there. So he goes toGreece. He goes to Turkey. He has a great time and child Harold'spilgrimage basically follows his journey. The first thing he everpublishes as our as a vitalness, which is trash and, as we've talked about before,shall almost definitely a rip of of Charlotte Daker, and then he publishesEnglish bards and Scotch Reviewers, which is this polemic vitre. All liketake down of the publishing poetry, reviewing culture in England and thatkind of makes him his name a little bit as a poet or as a writer. Dean is asort of upstart for doing that, because that's the second thing he's publisheda little bit yeah. He tried to sort of quash it later on because he does comeup come. It does seem just like an arrogant young man, but he was rightyeah a lot of things he just came too hard too early. You know returns toLondon takes his seat in the House of Lords. Briefly, has lots of affairswith lots of women? It's a whole thing read a bit, but were a biography on him,including probably most famously lady, Caroline Lamp, who writes a damningBlenavon, which sounds like you know, Lord Byron later on, and then a lot ofpeople learn like I'm going to talk about this later, but Gesa learns aboutByron by reading. Glenarvan is an almost like biography, which is aproblem. You don't want to start this yeah. Let's stop that, so he marriesAnamal Annabella millbank for her money and she's. Quite a like she's, prettybut she's very kind of pious and prudish and as it turns out not intobut stuff which that was the ground on there in the coffin yeahright there's a few things. There was a lot of things, which is that's just kind of funny thatwe know that now I mean two hundred years later, it was part of it was partof her filing for divorce, but yeah. It was just one of many things. They spend very little time together,as the marriage goes on and there's a great account of him in the carriagewith his friend Hobhouse Cam Hobhouse, who he travelled with in the grand tourof most of it basically freaking out like a little boy, because Byron wasprobably by, if not gay. That's why he spent so much time in Greece because itwas legal there to be with men and he viewed marriage as a form of essentialslavery and and was very against doing it, but knew he needed to for money. Sohe's just freaking out in this carriage on the way to this wedding that hedoesn't want to do with this woman that he doesn't love and he has no one elsereally left to turn to emotionally other than camous who was like, Oh God,so the wedding obviously doesn't go very well. They do have a child ate ate.WHO COME turns out to be a Te lovelace who works with Charles Babbage on thefirst of a computer, which is pretty cool, there's also the sister? Ah, yes,no, are they full siblings? No, they are half siblings yeah, but that onreally help does it t talk about this so Augusta Lee was married and had kidsalready when they sort of rekindled their friendship. They were writingletters beforehand, but they became friends would get again and he went tostay with her and she stayed with him and they were very, very close andspent a lot of time together and almost certainly definitely had a babytogether and at the end of his life, a lot of his letters were burnt. The mostdepraved letters can you imagine, based on lots left over, so it's very likely.We've lost the hard core evidence for this. There's no way to empiricallyprove it. We can't do DA testing at this point, but basically definitelyyes, most modern Biron scholars will agree that he probably was having arelationship with his system. Yeah we'll talk about that later. So, ofcourse, Annabella wants a divorce for the sister thing, because she kind offinds out from Auguster and they exchange letters and Augusta is verysorry and sad and upset, and I didn't mean to still your husband that at the problem here, that's notthe biggest issue. So as that kind of grants for thedivorce was the sort of me, the relationship with the sister, butthat's he was also a dick bag and she had plenty of evidence on that yeah. Myfavorite story of Byron. Whenever I teach Byron, I kind of do a lesson into half so the first half I talked about all the great things he did andwhat he accomplished and what he gave...

...us and how interesting he was and thelike. In her only end of the hero swims, this huge they have to swim. This hugedistance, yeah and Byron goes and reproduces it like because he justloves, poetry and he's like Oh, they did in the palm that I have to do it,which is exactly all of us wandering around. So I was a freaking Ner, that'swhat you're telling me Ned and he read a lot and it was excitable. So I alwaysstart with like that, and then I slowly drop in all the awful stuff o get yeahand then force them because Viris one of those figures that very quickly youcan just be like. Oh M White Man, evil! No, no good! We need to cancel it. Weneed to censor this. We shouldn't talk about it, but he gave us so much. It'slike if you cut out Byron and don't look at where it comes from you'reactually doing a disservice to everyone. So I think it's about trying to reconcile or recognizing thatyou can't reconcile that. There are two things going on here and one is bad andmaybe one is less bad yeah, but they finally get divorced and he can't seehis daughter and that sucks for him. He flees to the continent, because hisdads are that bad, he did buy a carriage in the in the fashioned onNapoleon's carriage and he never paid for it, and I was I was going to say myfavorite awful story of Byron as well. Annabella was getting birth, he stoodin the room below freaking out, throwing water bottle so o waterbottles at ceilings and screaming, because she was making too much noise,apparently, while in Labor m Y. AH that always gets off the class, Otaiti half so yeah. He goes to the continent andhe starts traveling around. He takes up a house in Geneva with Polidori veryfamously for it baby. It's they don't pay for a lot honestly. How? How dothey just go tier and Europe and not an either way? It worked was like you'relike okay by I'll, send you the money and then you just never send the money,and then the dead has come for you, but you're constantly moving around. Theycan't track your phone, you just of crazy yeah. No one has any money andyeah and he he flees because of the debts, the intest controversy, thedivorce, but also the increasing accusations of homosexual behavior,which was obviously illegal back then, and when you say the word sodomy, alsothat's in the sense that it was a low right. Yes, the nay went meant toSotomayor wife. Yet so it wasn't just to Yep, okay cool yeah. It washomosexual and sodomizing his wife yeah. So that was like a criminal act. It'sin itself. Yes, yes, okay! So did you reckonised just because of one of thesethings mainly or become and say yeah? He need I got so he goes to Geneva thealley of the SHELLYS. Come he tows the Alps. He has great time he meets clarclam on and impregnate tug for fun yeah. Well, then, I lalemant is in love withhim in London. She kind of propositioned him and he went with itand she took that as he gave her an inch and so to speak,and she took a mile and Jesus Christ O, and the story goes that once they getto Geneva, Byron doesn't really want a lot to do with her and and all of thedramatizations of this clore Clara is always represented as like, reallyannoying and and kind of silly, but she's actually very clever, very smart.Various student. She was properly heartbroken by bar and particularlybecause, when she became pregnant, Barian said okay I'll, provide for thiskid, but I'm going to take it from its mother and look after it and you don'tget to have it and that just broke clair for many many years and sheoutleveling. I remember who dies out of Mary Shelley or her first, I think Marydies before her. She goes to Russia and becomes a tutor there, but she is justthe most unsettled part of the whole Baron shelly circle and the mosttroubled and just struggling constantly, and I always feel quite bad for heractually based on. However, on treated her yeah, he infant him pregnated clay,clemont Allegra dies at a very young age at a convent, and that alsoobviously destroys clear and eventually virin kind of settles down in Italy. Hespent some time in Venice, but then he becomes kind of a paramour to trees, ajacale which was a thing back. Then you could be married to sort of a richgross man, but you could have your side home and Byron was a side Ho and therich groseman was cool with it. So I want to be someone's side. How can youimagine the perks? Oh yeah, that's one of the. What are the other books? Robes, really diaphonous, robes yeah,nice pajamas. So I mean these are. These are the broad strikes? Byron wasalways inspired and attached to issues of freedom and liberty. He was a hugeNapolean fan boy. His first speech in the House of Lords was in Sunspot ofthe ladies. Do you know who the ladies were? They were the frame breakers, sobasically, with the rise of the industrial revolution, people werecreating machines that could do employees job for them and kicking theemployees out, and so they were rising up against it. And so, if you callsomeone a Lodi now, your kind of the implication is that they are againstdevelopment and change. But there's this whole political like what'spotation, which is like well I'm against change, because it hurts meeand my place in society. So his first...

...speech in the House of orbs was on thatand then, of course, towards the end of his life. He decided to go to Greece tofight in the war against the Turkish, but he was a man without any militarytraining, with a lot of money who just sort of thought I'll go and fix it. Soit wait. How did he get money? I thought he was in debt or just didn'tpay the debts, and I do I just never paid for anything room right. Yet itwas absurd and he had to sell. This is the problem he had to sound his familyhome and took forever to do it, and I was sort of back then you'd kind ofwork off the fact that you were going to get a huge inheritance one day, butyou hadn't got it yet. So you are a crew all of these steps up to it, andthen you don't get the inheritance or it takes forever to get the inheritanceor whatever so yeah. He was trying to sell his family home yeah, that'sinsane. How could you reflect that? Just I know it's very stressfulthinking back on it and like DEBTA's prison was a whole thing like WilliamGodwin just spent most of the end of his life trying to stay out of DEBTA'sprisons. It was pretty terrible because they just grab. You is so scary M. I doreckon yeah not to draw back on Reseau, but HMM, probably strict still aroundof part of the reason they went to Geneva was because they love Russo andRousseau was from Geneva and he wrote mostly in Geneva, so they're huge fans of these ideas of youknow: Liberty, equality, fraternity, he's usually inspired by the Frenchrevolution, the American Revolution. He thinks this is the way to go, which iswhy he goes and joins the Greeks, but he doesn't make it home and theaccounts, kind of vary and most people just assume he died of a fever. I thinkit's a bit more complicated than that or is complicated as now he can make itbased on the information we have. Basically, he goes out for a ride andhe come. He goes. He sort of stays out too long in the cold and gets three wetsometime and he probably just had a cold and a really bad fever andobviously back. Then there was no way to bring your fever down. So they triedto do blood letting which just like everything Wotan, Ithink they took like it- was a huge amount of bud and there's this greatpicture of him at Missilonghi, which is where he died and he's like they'redraining him and this little pause and bowl, and it's just filling out withBiron blood he's just getting a Lerin Taylor, yeahyeah, and he died a surprise and even in his own time- and this was kind ofnew and different, you know he was the first ever rock star celebrity. He wasthis, the People's poet kind of thing. You know: Wordsworth never kicked offamongst everybody, whereas everyone loved Byron. Everyone knew Byron insome capacity who was very widely read and celebrated in his own day and madea lot of money. He was also widely pirated, which is part of how it had somuch popular appeal and he sort of encouraged that towards the end as well,for example, or just now as an example of how muchpeople adored him. He was popular not just in England, but and not in Europe,but also in America in Asia were starting to find some examples of earlyBaran readers and obviously also in Australia and in Italy, an Americanship and biding him on board. Just and like fired guns in salute of him andsaid we love your work. It's like a candahar shoot some sea gulls in youron on yeah esentially, so there's lots of like awesome, Biron stories likethat. That's ridiculous! I mean yeah, no good for him. I get getting famouslike that, but it makes sense the why we still talk about it because it's notlike we've ever stopped to yea and for a lot of years after death. It was morebecause of like what a kind of scandalous figure he was. Everyonewanted to talk about him. He was famous. For that reason it was like a Byron, but now it's because of his influenceon poetry and his very interesting and developed life like he bought a bear toCambridge, because there was a rule that you couldn't have pets and he waslike. Okay, I've got a wild animal luck. That's I'm not breaking being the rules.I hear such a shit. Didn't he have a lot of animals. He did. He had amanagery tongue. That's ridiculous! Lots of birds, lots of tea ye PercyShelley- gives an account. He arrives in Venice after basically travelingthere in like two days because he needs to go sort out. The stuff with a legwere and Byron because Allegri well and he's like. I have to get there now tohelp her and byrons kind of like oh she's on well. Is She all of thequarters arms I didn't notice and like Byron kind of opens, the door? Oh Ishow he couldn't have. It would have been one of the servants, but thenthere's just animals everywhere. There's a monkey there's peacocks! It'sjust chaos, yeah ridiculous man, so like yeah, the most famous poet ever,but there's also an argument here that he writes for the populace and that'swhat makes him famous certain people sort of say that you know yeah. Hispoetry is good, but it's not great. It's popular! That's what the peoplewanted. It's dramatic! It's just Trama, we don't write poetry for the fuckingtrees. Now do we, who else is going to read them? Well, I don't know. What'sworth was writing poetry for the P and there's what going on, but it isthe fucking trace we'll get to it. He just e. He nailsthem face down to a tree differences et. The other ones are facing out, or Byronsort of decides to write. Man For roll...

...starts, putting men Ford together afterwe toured around the Alps pop house during his sort of stay in Geneva, andit's one of his more sort of popular lesser works. We think of child Haroldand Don John as the big famous ones, but Manford becomes quite popular. Itis put on on the stage it sort of has a whole life there and there's aparticular reason for that. Manford is the combination of a lot of differentliterary influences that a lot of people pick up on and see, see it asdeveloping or progressing or doing slightly differently. As professor ofSamuel, True Road of the play more than any other English problem, Manford istypical of the romantic period. Is it it is an expression of the mood ofRomanism and epitome of the time. I don't know the extent that I agree, butit is kind of like this landmark text that brings lots of ideas together inparticularly in terms of the Byronic hero and so on, thought and it'sinfluenced by a lot. So some of the more apparent influences are- and I cannever say this short to Brian Shatto, Brian Brunette Bena anyway, this person,I've, never said that lad, it's French, but it represents a kind of incestuousrelationship. There's also gothic fiction, he's dealing with faust andfaster, so very clear influences as well as obviously things like saint. Soit's complicated, there's a lot of iteas coming together and she sort oftalks about the way Byron wanted this to be mental. The theaters remember, Iwas saying about like the Cosetta as and he tries to develop demon, which isa German word for mood apparently, and she says Manford opens with a Soliloquy,justified by the all important character of the protagonist by thePrince President of the English and German of Faust and by its service. Asa key note indicating the stimm of the peace, the essential factors of thesituation, sin loss and grief, the quest of knowledge and death are allalluded to in the opening speech and while further light is thrown uponManford's life and character, we are once appraised of the informationneeded for an understanding of the situation. The simplicity of the actionof the piece makes the exposition a matter of little difficulty. The earlyintroduction of the supernatural service, though, in a lighter degree,in a slighter degree, the same purpose as in Macbeth and hamlet visive, togive the proper tone color and to excite the interest of the audience andreader. So immediately from the start, he sets up what the kids call the VIBE did you did you learn that from me,studfee, not we're not that old. Are we just not used the word fire? I don'tunderstand berries and cream. I don't understand that and now that you'vementioned it, it's on my facebook prefer and there's a mood, and you kindof it's interesting because, like the influences are there and apparent, butat the same time they're very startle and very carefully put together. Iquite like it, and I think part of this is because Byron was such an avidreader. He read so much gothic fiction for a time he worked on the Committeeat Rory Lane Right, which is a theater in London. You would have seen so manyapplications. Sort of you know for this is my Gothic play that I've writtenthat's a rip off of mysteries of Vedal. Ok and we published it and he would belike no, but he saw like every single iteration of the Gothic and it was allin his head when he was writing this, so he would have been able to likesense, essentially all of the trends of the hanging around what's popular whatpeople are reading into it. That's really cool. It's like he has like theoversight of a publisher sort of thing. He was very plugged in even when he wasabroad, he'd be sending letters back to John Marry, who was his publisher, whohe made famous because Mary was just like publishing travel logs beforeByron, he wasn't a big deal and Yeah Byron makes him famous and he'd sendthese long. Letters of you know shopping lists. I remember one that waslike. Can you send six bottles of Soda Water and a lot or like six chests ofside water or something he loves so o water? And so do I? So you know and long lists of books he wanted andin the really crappy bio pick of Biron, the joke throughout the film isFletcher his sort of long suffering servant or man. Servant is alwayshaving to carry the books around from place to place, and so is like afucking books that definitely happened to lie. Comes man well, they're all had covers with myyeah really big one, so this probably all influenced what Byron was trying todo here. Okay, so the other. So the name Manford is sort of influenced byhistorical precedent, probing most influenced by Horace Walpoles, thecastle of a Toronto from on seventeen and sixty four in terms of the name.But there is other precedent because wildpark got it from like the place, aTranto in south Italy, which was ruled over by a man Ford and the twelvehundreds who was the natural son of Frederick the second, but it turned out,he was actually a usurper and his nephew's name was Conrad, so there'slike, which is all the names in castle bertrant. So, there's this historicalprecedent as well that I don't I think Byron probably would have been aware ofbased on his reading. It's just occurred to me that I didn't go andcheck, but I think he was but man Ford is like a Gothic name: Hmm Yeah, it'sheavily associated with the Gothic Very Muison, ed yeah, don't trust a man ifhis name is man frick, because he's probably got someone locked in hisattic yeah, but you know you can for a helmet at him and that will scare himto bit go listen to our episode on a Trantowhen it's out and you'll know what...

...we're talking about or read it. TheBooks Vo Shot, the other major major influence on this closet drama, Yo, HanWolf Gang von Getas O got right. I was I the famed German poet. He kind of predates, spiring a bit he's. You know fully grown and matured as a poetbefore Byron is sort of Super Developed Fast, a fragment is published inseventeen. Ninety part, one as a whole is published in eight ere, a six andthey're sort of published and developed between. Eighteen, twenty eight andtwenty nine and then part who is added in on eighteen, thirty, one. If you gotso fast, just read the first part: That's a forty year poem! THAT'S Alifetime p! That's ridiculous, like most of my adult life is going to be,hopefully at least forty years, yeah right. It took him a while and we'regoing to look at this on its own. I'm going to look at Malos fast at somepoint: I'm not going to go into the fast tradition too much here, but go tokind of brought it all together for the Germans and it became super influential.Whereas Satan was the big fast figure for the English, because they neverreally had it like mallow, was big, but no one was it wasn't as influential asGito. So I make as many waves yeah, let's was. Byron was very aware ofGersau, at least eighteen. Sixteen, according to an Butler in Byron andGito. Here, D: In new, the styles to Alaman and Werther, and famouslymatthew, Lewis, who wrote the monk rode some of Gites, faust out loud to Byronat Vellido Darty, which is in Geneva in eighteen. It didn't know that that'sreally Ensalada that little tip, but now I've got yeah and I have to readthe monk again. So do I, which is a he didn't, read German, so he couldn'tread it himself and it took a while for them to be an English translation. Hecould get his hands on, so he is kind of left up to other people for a whileand, as I said, he journeyed through the Alps it this time, so it's assumedto have also influenced the sublime representation of landscape. So the wayit sort of thought is like okay, he's been read good as fast. He likes theidea and he sees all these mountains and he kind of brings it together inthis beautiful palm. Let Byron did later dedicate, or at least try todentecane SOB Napolis to go to, but it was during the time we kind of fell outwith Mary and both of them seemed to have forgotten. It never quite happenedand it turns out and go who was really offended by this. I read a book was onbasically what we know of God. His perspective and Byron was kind of likeembarrassed of his influence and and aware of the older poets, kind ofmaturity and fame, and everything and felt stressed and Gotha was very proud,a very proud man. So he was Aston Byron, who read a lot of his work, but he alsoread like Glenarvan and, as I say, took his understanding of Biron from that.So he didn't really know him and it took a while for them to sort ofexchange letters, but they did. They did eventually they never met in person.Then too far, so we have sort of Peteroa who I mentioned before any andButler to thank for their excellent scholarship on the influences meant ofManford and, as I said, on pateroes website, you can see it's got. Hespends a lot of time indexing. All the face. Also of significance is BenHewett, Piran Shelleyan and go tis fast and epic connection, which is verydense, but pretty good swelsh Ip trying to figure out the very complicatedconnections between the text and who took what from WHO and why they used itand why it's there and the reason go through so significant is becauseByron's representation of Manford is very similar to go to hisrepresentation of Faust. That's the problem by a very strange coincidence, go tohimself on October, thirteenth eighteen, seventeen had received a copy ofByron's play and he wrote the most amazing event for me was the appearancea day or two ago of Byron's Manford presented to me by a young AmericanAmericans everywhere. The strange gift of poet has completely assimilated myfaust and derived the strangest nourishment from it for hisMichipicotea. He has used all the motives in his own way, so that noneremains quite the same, and for that reason alone I cannot sufficientlyadmire his mind. The remodeling is so complete that very interesting lecturescould be given about it as well as about similarity with the original andthe dissimilarity from it. Although I certainly do not deny that the somberglow of an unlimited abounding despair becomes tedious in the end, yet thedispleasure felt on this account is always mixed with admiration. Respect.As soon as our ladies who are passionate devotes of Byron haddevoured the work, you shall have your share of wow so lot going on that herecognizes that it's same same but different yeah, and you can see alsothat pride you mentioned coming in there. The fact that he recognized abarn done something worth while but like it's not as good as the originaland it's a it's a remodeling. He tried sorry, ten days after that. Byron ishearing this accusation, a lot from a lot of people and he's getting pissed,and he writes the letter to Mary October twenty third eighteen,seventeen, an American who came the other day from Germany to R hobhouse.That man was taken from gites fast but ever may take both the fastest isGerman and English. I have taken neither to what and then over two and ahalf years later on June, seven eighteen, twenty, he sums it all up hisgirt as fast. I have never read, for I don't know German, but Matthew UncleLouis in on eighteen, a D. Sixteen D at...

Colomna translated, most of it to me,vivace and I was actually much struck with it, but it was starbuck and youngfrau and something else much more than a past us that made me write. Man Forthe first scene, however, and that are fast, is a very similar cay. So he'slike going back and forth acknowledging I'm not influenced at all, but maybe alittle bit influence. Another letter recognizes is it says I mentioned: got-is comparison of fast and Manford, en Byron observed evidently in earnestthat he deemed it an honor enough to have his work mentioned with fast as toits origin. Lord be said that, sometime that, sometime before he had conceivedthe idea of the pace, Montlouis had translated to him some of the scenesand had given him an idea of the plan of the piece. So he is clearlyinfluenced by the storyline German said. He, and I believe, God or himselfconsider that I have taken great liberties with fast. All I know of thatdrama is from the sorry French translation from an occasional readingor to, inter into English of parts of it by Mont Louis, when it dear Dardiand from the heart mountain scene that shelley bursie the other day, becauseshelley sets about trying to translate, go to as well and nothing. I envy himso much as to be able to read that astonishing production in the original,because sally was much more scholastic of all the romantic poets. who was theone who was like? I have to know everything or I will die, which is whyI find now someone like that. I think jo again, who's a very significantviron scholar quits us very well, because he says that Biron is oversensitive to charge, as a fault is touches how he watching. When you lookat him Barinas she got over there. I know regard of him. What's a fat, I'mnot influenced by Mab Malo, I've never had Malonon said, but you were that you. He also says that in his casualpronouncements in his letters, Byron was notoriously inconsistent. This willcome. This is become a phone in my side because I go okay, this viron event, orthis firing thing. Let's figure it out, let's go through the sources, so illcough. The various Biobu look through the various like notes and things onhis work, then look through all of the letters and journals in the letterslike he sends up a people and you're just trying to put together this puzzleand there's always a piece missing, and it's Peter Fuckin says seems to me thatGerda was correct in his reaction in the bar and takes themes from faust andre renders them with a view to distillation into interior, Ization andeconomy. Instead of the need for a tempt to encourage the protagonist tofall, he presents Madford as fallen from the outset on his own initiativeand without intervention for any third party. So this is a big deal. These arethe big changes that he makes he takes away mephostophiles and, although whoretains key scenes and ideas, he represents it as an individualtriumphing over like the supernatural or the natural or some sort of asublime other worldly thing. So it's the triumph of the individual, which isRomanticism English Romanticism, as explained by Lana Fitzsimons in herarticle fastee passions from Marlow to a Duma and Markland. She says the realmof evil into which Manford and shude intrudes, as already noted borrowslittle from the pandemonium of Milton Satan. I argue. Otherwise the emphasisis rather on the bold defiance of the presumed sovereignty of Auremen Manfordlike Prometheus to fine Jupiter refuses to bow down and worships, and now we'vegot Satan and Prometheus. I do it, but this does pect the question about Malosinfluence. So I'm talking about Christopher Marlow and his player, thetragical history of Doctor Faustus, which is very good and will cover it onanother episode. As we have heard, bar byring claims he didn't read Marlow,but Byron like the Devil Light, and he or get the work on this. He says the player put so this this issmaller. He checked right. He says the play fastest appears in none of theplace sets we positively know Byron to have owned these devote very littlespace to Elizabethan or Jacobean theater. Doctor Fastes is neither in MrInchplant an ancient British drama nor in the British drama is not inDodsley's old plays, but it does appear as the first item in a much betteredited in printed anthology old English plays brought about out betweeneighteen, fourteen and fifteen by dilk, who is a friend of Keats and futureeditor of the Atheneum and dill conceived his work as a follow up ofDodsley and was encouraged in the Labor by Gifford himself, keeping on him. Hebecomes important later. We have no evidence the baron own these set, butgive it was kind of a patate figure of Byron. So it's possibly he could haveborne it, but as he or here we go and give it were close at the time, it isquite possible. He could have seen a copy at Marie's. However, as all threeof the sets he did own were along with so much else solve in the eighteensixteen option of his library. The statement I had and have no dramaticworks by me- an English seems true, at least as regards the few months betweenhis leaving England and writing. Manford. That a book was not or was nolonger in Byron's library does not mean he didn't know it or remember it. Inaddition, for the possibility of giffis showing him a copy of Dik, the libraryof Durian Theater on the committee of which he served in H, Eighteen fifteentill he left the country a year later, he could have very well had volumeswhich you know he didn't have later. So we just want to know if Byron had a newMalo, and I think he probably did well yeah just he seems to have had moreopportunities to have it than reasons not to yeah and there's like stuff ofGertest in there, but there's as we will see stuff of Marlow's faust,particularly that opening scene in his...

...study. I think it's more of like Malothan gorter in a ways, but we'll get to that. It's also similar to drunkenStein an Stan Star in a Gothic Barin peterport even goesas far to say that Manford and Frankenstein have so much in common.One might suspect collusion, and I know who side I am on is Mary's. Oh Wow, Imean the reason is this argument is because both of them kind of go tocarnal houses and try to bring back life and die of this guilt and whateverbut Frank Istein is doing lots of extra different and interesting things for,as baron is just riding a sad guy in a castle with lots of thoughts right,yeah De Start, your lectures it that so thisis a sad Guina castle with what to thought. The other thing about my Fredon Franksmine is obviously they're, both being kind of conceived of and developedduring this period of like Biron and the shellys being in Switzerland. Sothat is another influence, because although Frankenstein is and generallythought to come out of that night, where they all set around and rot, gostories we'll talk about that. Another time you know, Manford kind of I thinkin an indirect way, also comes out of that experience and that thinking andthose discussions and obviously going to the Alps and the reading who's doingetcetera. So the fact that there's, like suspect collusion, isunderstandable, yeah. Well, it's just another one of the gazillion influencesthat he had if he was taking influence from all these random books and place.It's that's not surprising at all to says that, as well as being sort of theepitome of the romantic period, he argues. Study of the sources of Bironhas shown that there are three chief elements in the character of theirprotagonists, distinct but related to each other. They are the themes ofPrometheus Don in and Faust. Manford is a complete representative of no one ofthese but includes characteristics of them all. I think it's more complicatedthan that, I'm not sure about on one honestly. I don't think it really fitsor Don Duin and we're going to talk about what characters might fit. Sooften, we think of Manfred as a Bironico, because he was written byByron, but now we have a more popular understanding of Baronius and people,just kind of throw the term around. What's a byronic hero, Roan or thespecific one, or do you want something just sort of a turn around? If I askedit, if I asked it at a dinner party, what would someone tell me? What's thegeneral in they probably say? Okay, well, he's like this, you know he'slike God. They I think they picture him. They say like toll, duck and hands on,but as in like dark hair and then say that he's like a bruding guy who's,like probably rich and he's like, got this sort of air of melancholy abouthim. A like that makes you really intrigued and he's got problems likehe's, got hardcore emotional problems that he just figures out, whilestanding on mountain tops and like exists. The word for postulating isthat the world that's the little quisin yeah yeah. You find him in the libraryroom, Siliquis, ing to e and like honey, as I dinner time, yeah and he's all. Hehe's always a little bit damp because he's always outside and cold places andhe's really not he's, not really he's, not a good guy to be around. If youwant to be happy generally, after a ting yeah, often a very aestheticfigure, isn't he you imagine him based on Asthetic Yeah? I like to tellstudents, if you want to see just gothic aesthetic like Bingo Gothic,that Tom Hilston movie that you watch very recently crimson peak prinsamour.Just all the boxes from Middleston is kind of the ironic figure in that easeto yeah and not to spoil it, but it's yeah, my God, competing verycomplicated, so barcus. They have this now popular understanding behind them.The problem is, we don't really have a working definition like they aredefinitions and dictionaries and what not, but the scholars it's very hard topin down. This is a Byronic Uro, it's kind of like the shifting figure andyou can make a kind of list of attributes and so off. It has enough ofthe attributes and we can think of it as a bit run, O Caro, and I thinkthat's how most people work, or they just recognize the aesthetic and sayall part of what influences this is the Baronet cure and people see Byronhimself and his life and the way he carried himself and how famously was etCetera as really influencing and permeating his work, because a lot ofthem are sort of so biographical, and I think that gets us part of the way. Butthe problem is you risk overlooking the significance of the differences, andyou kind of lump them in together, like on a lot of scholars, will just look atbyrons kind of overall work and say: Oh Yeah. These are all Bironico much samething when, as you know, there are very different things going on in each one,even though he's using very similar aesthetics or styles or characteristicyeah yeah, and the example I got here is like James Bond and Edward Cullenhave a number of similar attributes, but they have very different types ofheroes. It would be like trying to push them together and saying they're thesame thing, but like there's so much variability yeah and does that is that.Does that mean that when people talk about baronet heroes, they're reallytrying to just like unstick the tentacles of Byron's influence oneverything? But I think they're trying to stick the tentacles of virus inFontenis Metaphor, didn't really come across. I'm just an is influenced likean octopus, sprin a ICICLES, but...

...everyone is reading. It is one greatbig, tentacle yeah, instead of Byron's influence is tentacles, is good though,because you, it becomes very difficult to go back to the source yeah, butbaron, because he does bring all of these ideas together. They becomerecognized, but other people as a style of hero and a dob itself, and they justkind of lift that and take it and just kind of keep stamping it down oncharacters, even though they aren't really doing anything new or differentor interesting with it and they and then the Byronic is kind of born. Asthis just kind of like my atmic bull, Eros yeah, it's like yeah, it'sbrooding. It has problems bionic and just move on were down young for aswell yeah. I think it's a disservice to baron. I think it's unfair to bironsvery careful, very purposeful, characterize ation of different heroes,so in the Haut and counted castle, which is kind of laughed at now alittle bit, but it is very early work by no ralow on like Romantisme and allof the things going on in Romanism. So it's kind of a good place to go backand sort of check and then work our way from, and he says that a swart swarthyeyes sullen mood, fell in deed, fruitless guilt, gloomy salt, mysterythat hers so essential, a Fatuo, the Bironic carer. T! Sorry, let me so.These are all qualities as by ran cure and he sort of goes through and findsexamples of them all and says there. We are because there are no all of them.It's it's Byronic. He says the jaw, isn't he does sort of distinguish. Hesays the jar is important because it denotes a new phase in the developmentof the Baron Acero that without neglecting the pawl gloom brought downfrom earlier pictures, his passion and mystery now become expanded into thechief characteristic. He also says that the central personage of all vironspoetry, a type with whom he deals from varying points of view and bearinglights, endowing it with avenue tasks infusing it as in Canon Manford, ashade of Prometheus defiance of the Gods and a dimension of the secrets ofthe cosmos, but always keeping it fundamentally. The same see I disagree,but I also agree because the aesthetic is there, but it's different. Themotivations are kind of the same, but also different. I think it's morecomplicated. This is the closest. I think there is kind of to an existingdefinition. I found others, although he doesn't acknowledge Satan's influenceand instead it's about the influence of different different heroic traditions,rather than trying to figure out the bironic tradition. So you can see theproblem born, pushes them all together and add something new, and then peoplejust take out the thing that he added and Smush it down on other things, buttake out all the rest of it. But then it seems like there's still a linedrawn right, so baring it they take out the baron bit. They Mush it down onothers, and then people go oh well, it's influenced by barn and thereforeit's influenced by Satan and fasters. But no actually it's just thisaesthetic part of Biron Yeah Yeah. But that makes sense now that makes sense,because it's not like baron news foust in all of these other plays either, andso, if you're going to say that every byronic hero has the has something todo with house. That would be incorrect, yeah or from Mathias Ol Satan oranything O. Okay, it's a sup virens hop and what a significant is that baronbrings these traditions together and he makes it this kind of archetype or anincredibly influential figure and that's the whole point of Peter TallSuds Book and we're going to be talking about pulse lot. Now that we watchedthe I cold again, it's called the Byronic hero and he also doesn't give us a workingdefinition for the baron. I cur, like I've, checked multiple times. There isnot. This is a BIRONICO. He gives us like paragraphs where he talks about it,but he never goes this is it and his how you can tell what it is because hehimself recognizes. As I say, the per purpose of his book at the Bironico isother things mush together and he goes through the different things that havebeen sposhe and looks at the various iterations of the sputting iterationsof the smosh Jerom Megan does make the development in Baron and Romancist. Hesays: Pre Byronic, hero, villains are sentimental figures because theyfinally set aside the intellectual issues which they themselves haveraised for us, but the BIRONICO carries out his sceptical programs. This is whyByron Tales and players are actively intellectual works were as the monk andthe Italian and Daruba are at some point kind of rain in theirquestionings and set the readers consciousness at rest fire and pushesus to be thinking the entire time. That's in cane, that's in Manfred atsin, child Harold, it's a constant pressure O. No, that makes it the roleof fried is obviously important. We'll talk about Satan's influence yeah, butthis is important in the baronical there's, always an aspect of pride thatbecomes a kind of corrupting force. That, I argue, is what he takes fromSatan, it's obviously in prometheus and in fast, but I think, like the bestversion of it is in Satan like this. Is this huge enabling thing, but he hadalso literally damns him to help so yeah. That makes sense so when someonesays that Bironic Cura might be inspired by Satan and you don't seelike offs and claws and all that stuff well, we'll look at the exactinfluences in a second now we're going to look at like sort of the differentheroic elements of Manfred to try and figure out what kind of darker is orwhat bits as much together and obviously one of them is the gothicvillain and also has a whole chapter on this and there's plenty of scholarshipon it. But it's also defines the gothic villain is a kind of unregeneratevillain in the novel, but on the stage he became gradually more sympathetic.Until at last he appeared a half villain, half hero of Sensibility,since he became a personality first in the novel, however, and Sensei it is inthis form that he is comparatively well known. It seems reasonable to discussthe villain of the novel first and so...

...off. He goes, but he kind ofacknowledges that we can't the Gothic Gil and becomes more sympathetic andthat's largely to do with Byron's influence Hell Yeah. You can embyro andthat's because he's giving them pride feelings. You can feeling right. Wegiving me- and I think what is most gothic in Manford and chime in here- islike the setting and the idea of incest all of that stuff. That's the Gothic,but the rest of it isn't really there there's not someone you know hauntingthe place, there's not unexplained mysteries going on he's. Not I mean youcan do a feminist reading of Manford, but he's not holding any women hostagethat we know of that. We know so, like you said, the Gothic is reallyjust the setting and he's using all of these other ideas. Yeah and he's gotthe name of Manford Sho. Does that mean it doesn't have gothic considerationsjust sort of a gothic aesthetic, or is that not true? It doesn't really dealwith gothic ideas. I don't think yeah it's dealing more with romantic ideas.Capital are so the other way we can look at Manford is this kind of likemetaphysical rebel right and again, this is another SEM subcategories alsouses I'm just talking about it very generally. Here he's just a rebelagainst the world he's like. I can't stand he's in teenage his rebelliousfor the sake of yeah he's repressed by reality, because he'sgained all of his power, but it's still not enough to bring his long lot long,lost, love back and he's frustrated and powerless despite his power, and itbecomes this paradox that kind of destroys him essentially, and it's anintangible and oddly on specific force that that is somehow oppressing him. Wenever get told exactly who it is very unspecific. Even then, like I don'tknow, if he like made a deal with someone to get these powers, what theydo know he never did he never got them. He liked them himself. That's right. Hespent hours and hours like looking at the stars and like doing yes sign tothe caves yeah AK self made man. So you know the resulting frustration andlinks to a hazardous. The Wandering de Tradition found for Methe Satan was allabout rebelling against a power bigger than one's self and frustration wouldbeing thwarted, which is obviously all the rage during the romantic period. Soone of those is the wandering Jew. What we know about the wandering Jew rollingthing. Actually, I don't think yeah, no literally, nothing, that's the Onearchetype that I somehow slip through during my Undegrad, so you you've goton a blarst me. Actually don't want to go too far into it, because we'll do anepisode on it in all of its history right, but the one wandering Jew was aHazaras and he was sent to have essentially cursed to Jesus on LaCrosse and his ponishet was that he could never die and it was constantlywandering the earth telling his story to anyone who would listen and itbecomes a huge romantic moti for this idea of an individual who, like can'tdie and his punishment is that he won't die and has to wander. The earthforever is really interesting to them. We see it in like the rhyme of theEdgar in, for example, the the Mariner, who tells the story, has kind of thiswandering Jew. Vibe he's like you. I will tell you my story and they're likeOh you're, very old and something else I think, is interesting or soon toSeron. In her chapter man for the Brontes and the guy R C and the ByronicGothic hero in the in the Gothic Baron, she says Manford and Heathcote thefundamental features of the damned heroes once they lose the possibilityof rejoining this pit self from the platonic embodiment of their beloved.They find no alternative aim in life, but start on a journey far away fromfamiliar people in places. This need to try and this need to flee and try tobreak free from the haunting past makes up one fundamental literary top Oss ofall ages that have can al the wondering drew the journey outside as the journeyinside the south. So it's obviously also in the tradition of cane. We know,can a yeah but thore's are home, we're talking, dificult, tradition of cane,so the story of Kanana long story short, can kind of murders able his brother inthe first ever fratricide or human murder, because they were eating meatbefore hand murder was taking place. He essentially cuts out that Nice Line ofhumanity and he goes off with his wife and starts a new humanity and createdthe first cities and invent met eating and all of these things like it. But hewas you know the curse of cane because he killed his brother. He was cursed byGod to also not be able to die and, as extensible still out there wanderingaround about to ask, is he still out there like? You know telling people toeat meat, these purse and it won't? It means he can't die. So it has thewondering ye idea and the idea that he's kind of a cut outcast fromhumanity is there, so the evidence for that. It talks about him being cursedby a power deeper than all yet urged a tyrant bell, which had its birthplacein a stark and dem thing, turning rest of a demolished world a wandering wholein the eternal space by the strong curse which is upon my soul, goes onand says and by the brother would have cane, and I call upon the and compelmyself to be their proper hell again. That's kind of Satan, like your beingexisting, is going to be hell for you, the very like being of you will be hell,you don't have to go to hell. You can just be in help and he's going to becursed like came, but it also suggest he has some sort of brotherhood withcane, so he murdered a sibling. Maybe a start. It's all kind of we're inpsychoanalytical territory, but it's there and the curse itself is not aslumber not to die, shall Bein thy...

...destiny, though thy death shells shallstill seem near to to thy wish, but as a fear. Lo, the spell now works aroundthee and the clankless chain has bound to thee or their heart and braintogether has the word been passed now wither. So whither like like a plantlike not quite as he's just going to with her and become a like a crinklylittle flower, always wither infleted, going to die yeah and later on. He saysto the witch my solitude is solitude, no more but peopled with the furies. Sohis suffering, I have prayed for madness as a blessing to his denied me.He says I have affronted death the cold hand of an old pities team and held meback by a single hair which would not break he says I plunged amidst mankindforgetfulness, I sot in all, and I dwell in my despair and live and liveforever. So all of these all this evidence shows his suffering under thiscurse and the idea he is fulfilling the archaic of the wandering you becausehe's just like wandering around being sad everywhere and it's sort of like.What's the line from paradise lost, I self am hell which way I fly is hell.Myself Am hell like he's saying, yeah hollers within myself, so we've gotSatan here and we'll come back to that, because there's even more prominentallusions we can see even then, like Byron, is influenced by these thingsare how they're, starting to knit together yeah. I think in that evidenceis like we have the wandering Jew stuff being brought in far unlay a no verywhile suffering and calling up random women and, being what can? I tell youwhat's on my mind, a okay, the alte bit of lesser heroicarchetype that is working here is the idea of like he is an outcast and I'vekind of pushed three together here, because I think they work together inthis case, but they're different he's a tried off nature kind of like he feelsbest in the natural world, as the Romantics believe nature was thisrestorative transcendent force and it sort of suggests that, when he's amonghumanity, he feels more pressure and is corrupted, but when he's in nature he'sa peaceful, more peaceful and also a man of feeling, I think the two kind ofgo in hand, hand in hand yeah well look at the hero of sensibility at somepoint. It's less interesting, but basically the the idea of a man who'slike I have lots of feelings and I'm just feeling them and talking aboutfeeling them. I struggled so much through through that part of yeah. Idid. I did not because he just he walks around and he finds stuff to cry it andthat yeah ally how he you know. He only recognizes himself when he's looking athis reflection in a puddle of his own tears liked yorking about we're talkingabout Mackenzie's manner, feeling which is the kind of archetypal Workin itshort. I've gone back to it and kind of enjoyed a little bit more, knowing thecontext that I have now. But yes, it's soppy UMP, so we see evidence of thiswhen he's on young frow. He says I feel the impulse yet do not recede and mybrain reels. And yet my foot is firm. There's a power upon me which withholdsand makes it my fatality fatality to live while he's on top of the mountainhe's talking about how he has ceased to justify his deeds and to himself forthe last infirmity of evil, and he sees an eagle and he compares humanite theEagle and he says, but we who know ourselves at sovereigns, we half dusthalf deity, so he's kind of reflecting on these ideas that humans are meant tobe awesome and his own humanity and how sad he is man of feeling sucks to behim, but instead of like walking around and being like. Oh this woman is palthis. You know this man has one leg, he's thinking. Isn't it sad that I amnot a God like I should be? Is that exactly yeah you're right? THAT'S THEVIBE! Okay! So he's essentially like a cat, but with the ability to feel sad.It's funny! You say that because I chatto unseeing on academicals, if youlike, carry pracher. If you just like going down weird academic rabbit holes,go listen to unseen academicals because that's all we do. We barely talk aboutthe book. It's about the stuff that informs the book does an entire episodejust talking about like the the theory of Disney. Basically, we have a goodtime in Pratchett series. You get kind of you know, echoes of these ideas andthe Byronic Uros represented in a cat, and I argue very vehemently with Joshabout whether or not the initial representation of this is a ByronicCure, but I think it wasn't and then it does become it because Grebo is a catand he's transformed into a man and he's kind of ironic widow and thenlater on, he can't control when he's a cat or a man and they're making fun ofhim and they're being like a animalistic idiot at a our and they'rehaving an argument about like whether or not he's an animal, but it'sactually about the Bironico, I can bring it up. It doesn't matter anyway.So the point is in Prasat a baron. Her is a cat. That's very fitting! VII!Gonna read that one! Now: No, it's not a good one. He talks about the breathof degradation and pride, contending with low wants and lofty will to ourmortality predominates, and this is him reflecting on feeling and you knowpride and will and out desires, it's all just fluff, and then we die. I meanI don't know. If he's right, I've been I've had some pretty nice time sinceI've been born. It's good yeah in terms of like child of nature, the Shaiu, theis surprised to see Manfred so high. He says his air are proud as free bornpeasants and the mists rise around him and the hunter decides to warn him andhe says I'm Giddy and he seems toffer already, but you know the fact thathe's up therehe's contemplating his...

...mortality, we've got men of feeling andwe've got child of nature. kind of fine chart of nature is a bit morecomplicated, though, because the idea is that, like you, were born out ofnature and you're kind of like this innocent uncorrupted virtuous creature,we're sort of taking it as like he's an adult of nature. Well, he's been:doesn't he like to get most of his science from nature and observingnature and going to to to make that argument? That's a good argument cause like he said corrupting nature.That's like he was. He definitely wasn't born from it as a sort of likedewide thing, he's more, like this great big hand that shut off out of theground and started fucking shit up and got pound o nature. So we get furtherexamples of him reflecting on his mortality in a soppy way. Such wouldhave been for me a fitting to my bones that then been quiet in their depths.He's talking about young frown, saying I should have died and he says oh inthis one plunge farewell ye opening. Heaven Look Not upon me. Thusreproachfully. You were not men for me. Take these atoms! I Love Them. Like said: Do you know what an atom isto start with, then? How would that work? The way a me early understanding that it was thesmallest possible unit of measurement kind of which is so like reading it.Now in the twenty first century, it's so dramatic, and it's like I wouldn'tbe like take these electrons. You know I mean you should I should take theatoms and obviously the response from the hunter is stay not out pure veilswith THY guilty blood. I us don't commit suicide, you idiot, and he saysI am most sick at heart. I am all feebleness. I have to go men of strangewords and some half maddening sin. He goes on and he says the first of otherpeople he's talking about the first of their ambition was not mine. The aim oftheir existence was not mine, though I wore the form. I had no sympathy withbreathing flesh. His Joy was in the wilderness and to be alone and later on,he tells the Abbot. The lion is alone, and so am I and my nature was averse tolife. So all of these things, together, he right child of nature, happiest innature, spurns, humanity and like thinks too much about his own feelingsand tooks about it, but not quite the innocent child ofnature he's No, the adult of nature, the adulterer of nature. Yes, perhapsat that fits well with the incest ing, Oh we'll get so again the says man forI solitary partly by inclination, partly by consciousness of superiorityto his fellow man. This is part of it he's not quite misanthropic, but heknows he's better than everyone. I think yeah supercilious is partly bythe way of his crimes and grief. He knew this. He is a man of mystery andcrime and linked with these crimes. He has like comrade before him. Thequestionable virtue of devotion to the one and only loved the single mindeddevotion and subsequent last Manford characterizes is the core of his heartrief. More than anything else, this idea is the very foundation of virons,which again was a big call, but again we they pick out these parts of theBAROCO. This was the center part of Barons M, and this is the sentiat offirm is, and it's just like. No, no, no, it's all. It's all so put back in thesnouts. It's like they're, trying to like, I don't know like find a singlefish in a barrel of fish and they just like shove their hand in there and theypick out around him fish and it's like I mean yeah sure you got one butthere's about a hundred others in there. I could be an even of them m exactlyand the point is it's all of the things together right as far like the supthing like, if you take the you, make a soup and then you've tried to take thesalt out, you can't first of all, but then you know you're just getting itthe salt, the salt has to be in the soup Tiv for it to be. You know thefull thing yeah, so he's not just one fish: he he is the barrel of fish andwin it's not just the ingredient in the soup that makes the soup this is thesoup. I've lost it. You can't isolate an aspect of Biron isbecause the point is it's all of these aspects. Working together, you see. Whydidn't we just say that, instead of working with super and fisherman, ifI'm going to learn my degree, I did not mean just as silly as I was when I lefthigh school nice question. He also notes connections between differentBironic figers. He, the links between Manford and child, Harold, who hadsighed to many that went, he only loved one, the Jawar who learnt to die, butnow no second love like Salem and the bride of a beat off. He has experiencedor numbered perils, but one only love like conrade and the Corse. There wasin his heart, love, unchangeable, unchanged, felt book for one from whomhe never ranged. So this idea of love is central, but like there's all theseother things going on in each of those characters. Yeah and it's they're verydifferent things, even though they're very similar things. So it's just it'sa lot, well think of all of the characters in stories that have likebeen defined by the fact that they've only ever loved one person. Juliet isnot a Bironic Caro early but interestingly O. No, I Julia is avery early example of like modern Gothic when they're down in that cryptscene. At the end, like we'll look at this baby, her speech, where she's likea it's dark and gloomy, is very gothic, like it drips with these gothic ideasthat we never associate with the aesthetic wow return to it. Okay, sothe other, so that's trial of nature, men are feeling outcast and thewandering Jew, the other prominent...

...influences. That of the mythopoetic andagain I keep saying this, but we will look at this in detail. True says inMedford: There is nothing of the high self sacrifice of Prometheus whosuffers Christ like for the safe of men that, through his solitary anguish andperpetual war, the sum of human wretchedness may be rendered less. Doany green Manford doesn't really sacrifice anything yeah and I'd saythat in a sense, Manfred's child of nature qualities are kind of inopposition to his promethian qualities, because Promethean is pretty espesosacrifice for other people, whereas a child of nature is a recluse, a go o first yeah yeah, it's the primething. It's like. I went a little too far and Prometheus, I so of theearliest example of that. Well, it depends in terms of like literaryhistory is the early one, but technically statement came first inChristian history, but you know everything is fake and nothing is reate.So how do we separate the Promethian pride from a satanic, we'll talk aboutit when we get the Satanic? But as I mean we foreshowed this alittle bit. PROMETHEAN pride has to have some sort of selfness ofselflessness in it and a little and some ambition- and you know thatmotivates it, but it's for the greater good, whereas Satanic Pride is becauseyou should be allowed, like I sat it out Jeffrey in the Edinburgh View, praisesbyrons man fords from Ethan Quality. So it's something that's being recognized!Byron says to that: Prometheus is for him just one Greek tragedy amongseveral, although we later talks about, although he, although he never writesus, remember and I'm going to paraphrase and mess it up, butbasically he says, although he never wrote a story entirely dedicatedPrometheus, it's everywhere. He does write a poem, but it's very short inManford the sort of the quotes we get that indicate this. He says the mind ofthe spirit. The PROMETHEAN spark, the lightning of my own being is as bright,and he says to the Abbot, to make my mind of other men, the enlightener ofnations and to rise. I know I knew not whither, it might be default, but foreven as a mountain cataract, so Permethrin I mean even the wordPromethean. What do you think yeah? I think it's there. Even if he's not likeacting on these, this sort of sacrificial pride physically, he stillhas it yeah and he recognizes the Promethian desire for knowledge andpower. I think that's what's more significant for hat and that'sobviously what's also working away in Frankenstein and what people associatebetween the two. They both go down to carnal houses and like vaults, andcaves, to dig up the secrets of human life and death to body. Maybe so we ome get out helping each other cute, so that'sPROMETHEA. So these are the bet, the best examples, all the most prominentexamples of Cretheus in Manford. We also obviously have fast US- and I'mtalking, like rowdy of this idea of someone who sold their soul, who wasalready very knowledgeable so Tis all of the devil, and then the devil comesmany years later to collect and he's like no I'll burn, my books, which isheresy. He talks about how he can't sleep and he dreams and he's miserable,because sorrow is knowledge. They who know the most must morn the deepestover the fatal truth, which is a lot which is a lot I'm just looking at the First Section,like Oh foust, mean later evidence, he saysphilosophy and science and the springs are fonder ing the wisdom of the world.I have a saved, and this is how Malos fastest and go to spouses start is likewell, I figured everything out that he up. Maybe I should have some more stuffto figure out. He just talks. What's the name for a man servant Jeeves leftthe veil on the funny one good or evil lifepowers, passions. All I see in other beings have been to me as rain on thesands. Since that all nameless ally, I have no dread and fill the curse tohave no natural fear, no flattering strog. That beats with heart hopes orwishes all looking love of something on the Earth. So he's saying like he knowsso much it's at the point now, where he can't even sympathize with humanity isgone and the curse hasn't helped. I bet the curse, hasn't fucking help and andthe people he calls up kind of recognize that in him, so they when thespirits come they're like sone of earth. I know, then, the powers which givethee power- and I know the for a man of many thoughts and deeds of good andAlex Roman, both fatal and fated in their sufferings, also dealing with man,Fred, also dealing with fast and then later on. This is the most sort offasten thing and links him to Frankenstein and prometheus again alittle bit. It says he dived in my lone wanderings to the caves of deathsearching its cause in its effect and drew from withered bones and skulls andheaped up dust conclusions most forbidden. Then I passed the nights ofscience of years and sciences untaught, so it's forbidden knowledge that he'sgot hold of is so cool conclusions, most forbidden. I'd like I'd like towhat I is this yeah and a rig like in this essay. I come to conclusions mostforbidden is honestly hd like the job. Thanks for being creative Manford sayshe made his eyes familiar with eternity, and he acknowledges with my knowledgegrew the first of knowledge, and this is the problem. If you are it's a veryscholarly problem, you for ever unsaciat D, You're just going to lookfor the next thing after you get it O...

...fut, he won't make a pact with anyone.The witch says if Thou wilt swear obedience to my will and do my bidding,it may help thee to thy wishes, and he's like I will not swear, will not bethe slave of those who served me. We won't subject his will later in thewhole of our EMONIS. The spirits know him of a Magine of great power andfearful skills. So again they recognize it and they try to force him to bow,and he says I already knelt to my own desolation, which is such a MA move. Isn't it there's no powergreater than my own soppy feelings and the first destiny stands up for him andsays his sufferings have been of an immortal nature like our own. This guy is so sad, like literally it'sbeyond human capacity to feel that and he, but the thing is, he can't have theone power he needs because he won't subject himself. So it's kind of arebellion against the fast tradition, even though it carries on the sufferingof the faust tradition. He says you know what I have known in without power.I could not amongst you, but there are powers deeper still beyond I come inquest of such to answer on, to which I speak, I seek, he says, call up thedead. My question is for them who what's Thou on Canna? That's so cool!Also they just they just do it because he asks right like he doesn't make apack. He doesn't really threaten them he's just like yes, wether do anythinggame. He says please not even just call them up so one without a tom call upthe starts, which obviously links with Frankenstein's, calling the dead fromthe grave and I's been trying to for a while when he says one without a tombdoes. Is there a reference to what they used to do with suicides? Yeah, that'sone of the things that indicates that perhaps you kill them self yeah justsaid that holes couldn't first with the things which are forbidden to thesearch of Man, that with the dwellers of the dark, abodes the many evil andunheavenly spirits which walk the valley and Shade of Death, ThouCommunist. So again, this idea that he accesses for mid knowledge and at theend of the demon, comes and task power was purchased by no compact with THYcrew, but by superior science, penance daring in the length of watchingstrength of mind and skill and knowledge of our fathers said with aclenched fist, a gas to with Gaster Yep. That's it. I didn't make a pack withyou. I figured this out on my own and therefore he knows that the thing thatFaustus by the way is that he's never actually given really any power. Hecould just kind of perform tricks or get the devil to do his will for him,but he's not given hardcore power. MANFORD has that power. He is the mostpowerful and, as Dan McDonald acknowledges, the diabolic pack was acentral to the conception of witchcraft set out and Mallius mellifica m onethousand fine hundred and eighty six. It is necessary there that they shouldmake. They should be made a contract with the devil by which contract thewhich truly and actually binds herself to the devil for this, indeed, by theway normally through sex. For this, indeed, is the end of a which prof,whether it be the costume of spells by look or by a formula of words or bysome other change. So Manford's denial of a pact with the devil was syneticfor his refusal of any kind of exchange or interaction with anyone, even withthe Shamoy Hunter. WHO does not ask for his obedience well, for anything,MEFORD does pay him. He says he has some coin by up as the most importantsection, which is understanding the extent to which menfor s influenced by Milton Satan, which is like what I spend my life doing. Doyou want to sing that again it really a song? It is just a like asingle bad note. I like it what a herald is coming. Okay, so did younotice you we've just looked at Satan together, so did you notice any standout similarities between Manfred and Milans? I think possibly the pride inthe pride in the sort of like mind over matter sort of thing, the self overnature. How does it go to help as actually rooted and saying my nevermatter like you know, Satan is like I, my bigbrain is going to be bigger than any like solid, tangible obstacle. There is,and I think, Manfred kind of has a similar. It idea he's like my big brainis more powerful than anything. Anyone frees at me even facts of the universe.For example, I am clay, he thinks a thing in a putting self out of clay.Even gravity must bow down to me and he starts floating yeah. Okay. So thepride is what we're talking about yeah O K, if you're going to tiny Gonta putit in one word, then yeah pride right. He takes his pride from saying yeahbecause there's like Promethian ideas there, but not really developed beyondthe idea of like using knowledge. I guess it's Satanic, it's a distinctlysatanic kind of pride. Isn't Oios thinks, I think, also the psychologicalturmoil, but he experiences as he kind of like degrades towards the end of theplay is also blake. What happens to Satan, because we see him at the startsaying that. Oh, this is my goal, and this is my justification for my goaland let's go and get my goal and then he can't- or he realizes he can't andthere's that slow psychological degradation as he slowly realizes itand never truly fully accepts this yeah yeah and the sort of like we was mysuffering, but suffering is only in my in my brain. I, yes, as we talk about the psychologicaldegradation with Satan being a sympathetic quality o you remember yeah.I think we spent a couple of episodes...

...on that. If I remember the careerwelcome you're, more Wen, I really really like it, and I'm hoping that Ihave skills I can apply to other other books now. So books, I guys like people,are you I'm not going to psychoanalyze anybodyit a bean insult or a compliment. If I went up to someone and thought and saidto them, like you know what your you kind of remind me of the degradation ofthe devil, I think it wouldn't work anyway, back to what you were saying yeah. I think that is something elsethat is continued at this come from Satan. I think that, like process ofdegradation, yes and the psychological turmoil that comes from Satan, but thefact that it has made sympathetic as well, I think also can be traced backto Milton. So we'll have a look here and I think that's important about that.Is it's more sympathetic than Melton because he's a better character in mostways. Well, it's not the devil, to start, not the devil, and that doesn'thelp person. It helps a brother out, yeah, okay. So what? How is he like?Satan? L? We get some soliloquizing going on. Do you notice? Yes? Yes, Ilove Siliquis yeah and that's similar to Shakespeare as well, but I think helike Byron is influenced by the two him and there are like specific allusionsright. So he says the NAT tortures of that deep despair, which is remorsewithout the fear of Howl, but all in all sufficient to itself would make ahell of heaven a lot. I'm raising my hands in the air, which is just the same sentiment butdeveloped a little bit further and perhaps less poetically expressed. Whatdo you think yeah exactly that it has miltonic vibes he could not toni by USlike. You could trick me into saying that that's a line from Milton I'd say,is it but like it could be yeah so in at tortures of deep despair again, hissuffering is represented sympathetically, which is remorsewithout the fear of how all and all sufficient to itself would make a hellof heaven. We also getting this idea that hell is something you carry aroundwith you. It's not a place. It's an experience so saying that if he was totake his brain right now to heaven, he'd still be suffering, because all ofthe suffering is in his been yeah yeah. No, that's pretty satanic, but then there's more. He says the mind,which is a model makes itself which is again. The idea o make a heaven of Hellhow a Hell of heaven you have some sort of agency over your psychologicallandscape, except he doesn't because he's suffering, but he's trying tosuggest that he does, and this is an empowering, noble idea. Nepal, is it amisjudged idea and then you can't make a hell of heaven. I don't know he'sdoing a pretty good job of running his life. Oh you know that's true. Maybe I think he's just kind ofrepeating the satanic sentiment and trying to make it more sympathetic,Vicena, with associating it with men, Ford suffering, rather than as anexpression of kind of pride or free will it's both, but it's more sufferingby yea. That makes sense so in Satan's case he's saying that, like hey, if weare like when he's stuck in how he's saying that, if the angels think hardenough and create hard enough and be sort of inventive, they can turn howinto heaven. Whereas with man friend it's less about his environment andmore about the fact that he's suffering and he can somehow rationalize his wayout of it. And that is more sympathetic because it's well, it doesn't feel asdelusional to start with, even though it probably is probably hm anyway. YeahRight. So developing. Is that conscious, very conscious development of theseideas that Satan had been gree invented and redeveloped yeah, okay, notherquote required for its good or evil. Thoughts is its own origin of ill andend and its own place and time so again. The mind in its own place, goin a H T,a habit of Hal Heel, heaven suggesting once more that free will and agency ofthe sort of greatest qualities someone can have and suggesting that man foodis empowered because he has them so Manford is am power because he hasthese satanic qualities, but they are more sympathetic in him because of hissuffering. Yeah checks, O Exora, you Satan as the cause of the GOTHICvillain. He traces it back to Satan. I kind of do as well as we're going totalk about when we get to the hard cord gothic villains. I think, like theworst ACHENIA ITIES split off into Gothic villains and the best one splitoff into romantic heroes. I think that's what happened. That's that's apretty sexy economy, though I didn't yet well you're right, a gothic villain as thetenicee walked into a bar and then a bunch of old men argued about it forthe next three hundred. He also says Hamiton Satin the related souls nightdarker brooders over deep mysterious thoughts whose likeness, havinghitherto journeyed a part, combine in the Byronic Cro. So again, it's verylike ephemeral, vague idea of these ideas joining in the Byronic care, butno actual definition of the VIRANA here. But it's nice to see the two ideas likeput next to each other, because it's like Oh yeah, there could be somethingin this okay. I think the other thing going on here is fire and taken fromShakespeare, and I'm literally reading a book at the moment about Byron theinfluence of Shakespeare, an Viron, how well he knew Shakespeare. He knew a lotof it off by heart, as it turns out, he was a big fan boy and it sort of talkedabout his main influences. Obviously, Melton is up, their pope is up there,but this book argues that Shakespeare is like very, very prominent, and youcan sort of see that in the way his characters soliloquize and I developed-and have this kind of introspective development, which is quiteShakespearean Yeah. That makes sense when I was sayingg. I haven't read thebook now when I saw the soliloquize I...

...was like Oh yeah. This is prettyShakespearian, but the problem is, I don't really know about many othersoliloquies other than Shakespearians of the liquids and in the ones that westudied in the Gothic I mean the Shekspere ance a likes really make aname for the Soliloquy. If you know them, you can should be able to pickout the other ones right. No, we do. We look at Satanic Soliloquies, thatManfred log, so for those watching along at home, a Soliloquy is when acharacter comes on stage and they give a speech that is ostensibly forthemselves and there's no one else around normally or they're busy, orthey can't hear them, but it's obviously to the audience and the ideais they're working, something out and looking you for you like whenyou're really stressed- and you start talking to yourself- trying to figureout what your problem is or if you're you know producing a podcast and theres,only one person in it and nobody's listening yeah that well that's a verylong soliloquy. I guess so. We had a number of so oecus or outman for it. For example, we are fulls of time and Tero Day is still on us andstill from us. Yet we live loathing our life and drilling store to die likethat's so gothic and straight out of Shakespeare yea. He talks about lifebeing a detested yoke of vital wake up, wait upon the struggling heart and hetalks about how the soul will often pant for death and yet draws back asfrom a stream in winter. They be chill but be butter. Moments like all right,so Peter Shot kind of brings it all together and he talks about theCultural Matrix of satanism. He says by the end of the eighteenth century,among the literate classes in England, belief in the existence of the devilhad all but vanished. Yet if, in one sense the supernatural figure waskilled off then in another, it is resurrected in the form of a modernmyth. This observation confirms Viron Significance, not as authoring theSatanic mether embodying it as a singular perversion, as some of hiscontemporaries con claimed, but rather a standing Allah wild. I knew like thatin surviving in symbolic relations to a central cultural phenomenon of hismoment. What is Peter Shock saying Ron, I think, he's saying that the devilprobably became some sort of like cultural motes that everyone wasdrawing on and Baron is one of the people whose allusions is most famousand influential yeah. Yeah good. Look at you. I think it's interesting that yeah, thefigure of Satan with like horns and evil was called off, and then we gotthis kind of sentimental metaphysical hero that combined Promethean ideas,which Shaksperian ideas and like humanized him, and then the Romanticstake that tangle of like for psychological development and flooredmoral justification, and all of these things, and just like. Oh, this is afun bouncing ball. Let's go bounce it on some shit, it's just throwing itsome dudes in the street and see what they stop to do a yeah. They juststarted playing around with it. He also says Meltin Satan assumes on theromantic era, a prominence scene never before or since nearly rivalingPrometheus is the most characteristic mythic figure of the age, a more activeand ambiguous mythic agent than the bound suffering for thinker andbenefactor of humanity. The reimagine figure of Milton Satan embodied for theage, the apotheosis of human desire and power, I'm incredibly pissed offbecause he wrote this before me. This is what I want to say, but then I wantto say more, but he's written this. It's actually good in a way, because Ican sort of say all this person's kind of said this already, but I can buildon it this way. For those who are writing an essay in the background thatyou can build off what exists yeah, he becomes a more important figure thanprometeus at this time, because prometheus was essentially benevolentright. He was a good guy where, as Satan, you've got to reconcile, as wediscussed at length with good stuff with the bad stuff, and he becomes amore complicated figure that is more fun to experiment and play with, andthat's super powerful, because that means you have like, like a turningpoint with heroes where you've gone from people just being good, and youknow examining them being on boats and winning wars and that sort of stuff topeople who have what is more likely like more relevant struggles, yeah,complex and they're good and their bad turning point is right: Yeah, we getgenuinely incredibly psychologically complicated characters that I take onthese atonic satanic ideas that we didn't really previously have, and wehave the idea of Satan as an incredibly complex figure, which is something wedidn't previously have. So all of that stuff we were talking about in paradise,lost it. It was a turning point that it humanize the level. Here you see it inaction. He is taking those characteristics and playing around withanother character using them, which is fun, and so that sort of introduced anew concept of complex carrat character to the Y, ah to the culture and thingsand and your thesis argues. This is why we have Batman when you, when you put up like that itsounds useless, but but yes essentially it was, it was a downhill slope. It wasa sere slope from Satan, tally at the romantic sort of character and they'relike I can make him worse and then now we have that man, the joker, gethappening. Yeah, no you're right, there's, probably some like pointsalong the way that helped the development like the gothic villain andlike Shakespeare is obviously a significant as well. We couldn't havedone it without other stuff. It was. It...

...was a combination of things, but youdefinitely couldn't have done it with that Mountain San and shock kind of hasa theory for this, which I think is important. He notes that since Faust,one arrived in British culture relatively late, having been largelyignored until the Alamen, it was Melton Satan, not God, as metamatic thatanswered the artistic and ideological demands of English writers, includingByron, while Milton Satan is without doubt and understandably, a greaterpresence than mefistole romantic writing. It would be careless not toentertain the possibility that go tes character, influenced Byron and so onand so forth. So we sort of talked about that already, but you can seethis like we're acknowledging the fact that Satan was this huge culturalpresence, because probably bat on Calahan similarly talks about the poethero and the work of Biron and shelling, because these are the two poets thatmost consciously work on these ideas. She says, despite both parts possessingdifferent aesthetic sensibilities and poetic preoccupations across bothsections of the book M. I show Byron and chelate stage this struggle to bein heroic language. The poet hero grapples with the reality that the poetencounters or creates in the resulting orchestrate conflict becomes thecreative principle central to their poetry and drama Baron, and shall Iperform the drama of poetic creation with poetic terrorism as a locust oftheir aspiration and down so like they're, playing around with what thehero is. Okay, so just is that kind of saying that, like the Orghestra Tedconflict with many of Biron heros is this sort of metaphysical struggle, andthat became a sort of like a characteristic of his work. At somepoint, yes, I mean it's in, but most of her Bironico is this kind of struggleagainst some oppressive tyrannical force, whether it be metaphysical orpatriarchal or whatever he I mean, as we talked about for this, is a theme inByron's life. He wanted to depict struggles against tyranny. That's whyhe loved Napoleon so much. No, no I've also got another vague definition ofByron, a Cura here he says the true Baroni Curo is a poet. The hero whobattles the verbal multiverse and the self to discover words adequate forexpression. Kelly's Po Hero on serve to cry in the limits of his existence,explores the precise nature of the relationship between his State andconceptions. The roll of the poet comes to the primary fixation of Shelley'sworkers. The poet explores and experiments with how to lay claim tothe title of poet Hero, so the Viron cure might be a poet hero, that's kindof worked in the work I worked out in the work of Byron and Percy Shelleyhe's interested in the limits of his existence and trying to figure that out.So it's just an introspective hero who like tries to work through himself bybeing poetic about it, I mean you could probably teach a bug how to write,poetry and sit them in front of a Merorn that doesn't make it a Bironiccuro. No, it makes it CAVCA. That was. That was the best thing yousaid not no, that was, that was a life. That's the that's! The funniest thingyou've said no, that's not even to either. That was really good. Okay, soit's a weird quote, but it kind of helps us to understand certaindevelopment, or at least there was this focus on this style of characterdevelopment and I'm Claro tweet. I use the rhetoric of baroness does notnecessarily imply a direct unmediated relation with Byron's personal beliefs.Indeed, Biron problem ties. The idea of any kind of religious belief is a formof will intention and agency, which is important that okay drum again alsopoints out in a footnote Environ on Romanticism that Byron's retoiledmanagement of these tales is a romantic equivalent for the rhetoricaltechniques used by Melton, which were most recently described by Stanley fishand surprised by sin. Both parts at intellectual traps for their readers,but moultons the technique is employed to strengthen the reader's faith,whereas Byron supports a new philosophy that calls all into doubt. I'm veryhappy. I found that footnote. That's really good! It's a good yeah yeah. Dowe agree. I think so yeah it's and it provides a nice clean line betweenMilton and Byron as well, which is nice only only through reader receptiontheory which bothers me, but I still like it. It also means we have toacknowledge that fishes may be right or partly right, all right, so he'sclearly developing the idea of the Satenik through the process ofcharacterization through the qualities of characterization through thesympathy of making satanic traits seem more sympathetic and through the directallusions. So we've got a whole, my asthma of characters coming together.That people say is the BARONI carry they look at man for an out by runningCura. If people were push, they might take off the Caro, but as we discussednot Super Gothic, then they might cause bits of the child of nature. There'sbits of the wandering outlaw there's bits of the of her Hazaras StatanPrometheus, but then it's like. Oh, I don't know. What kind of here inManford is, though, oh so he's a Byronic cure, he's a hero suit. Okay,so the other version of man fit Tis was the first version written and in it theAbbot is the bad guy and he threatens Manfred and Manfredis as a result of anunexplained fire in the new version. He defies the Demon who comes to collecthis soul, saying it had not been purchased by compact and dies of hisown accord, which you could argue does reclaim something of the wrought updeath of fosters a little bit. Don't know where that was about. So why doesit change well as William Giffard, who was something of a kind of paternalfigure to Biren terms, I on quite mean to keep in a memory to join Mary. Thisis a fun bit actually, no, no as at a side here right, so you know doing a Phyou kind of explore pockets at a time. You get your overview and then youstart digging down into the pockets...

...right. So I've been, I knew Keats andI've been borrowing and I've done this to each one. So I did it to like Godwhen I did it to has let I did it to Mary Shirley. I did it to Percy Shilly.Obviously, Baron was first and Milton was long ago, and I spent the lastcouple of months just like digging around in the Keat sand pit having agreat time just kicking shit up everywhere, yea. But the thing is, asyou read like multiple biographies of each and like know their work and knowthe scholarship on it. You start to like make these connections betweennames, so someone- that's just unmentioned in a bar in biography, islike for suddenly very significant case and you're like what about this guy andthen you're like you're getting a hundred year old gossip you're, gettingthe tea from different sources, it's very fun. So this guy was an asshole toKeats. He was with men and then Keats also wanted John Mary to be hispublisher very briefly, but he knew it wasn't going to wasn't going to go forhim see. Keats was made fun of because he was a part of the so called copanysschool, which was sort of looked down on for their lack of education and lackof good breeding. So William Gif it he says on Receiver, a First Manuscript, athird act of the Third Act. My dear sir, I found a parcel here at four, so it ishardly possible to do anything by post time. I love this shit. Nor indeed, canI say much more. I have marked a passage or two which might be omittedwith advantage, but the act requires strengthening. This is my givingfeedback. There is nothing to bear it out, but one speech the fire isdespicable and the servants an interesting the same with the friarought to be imposing, and for that purpose the fray should be a real goodman. Not An idiot. More dignity should be lent to the catastrophe to see howbeautiful our old pilot poet Marlow has wrought up. The death of faustusseveral of our old plays, have scenes of this kind, but they strove to makethem impressive metre to not should not end in this feeble way after beginningwith such magnificence and promise, and the demon should have something to dowith the scene. Do not send my words to Lord B, but you may take hint from themsay that the last act beres no proportion in links to the previoussincerely William Griffith, and what did he do? He sent the word to Lord Baydirectly good, very good night, let's just put sodium in the bath top likethe nineteenth century, equivalent of forwarding on and see seeing in if it just shits his pants in I would that was that was scathing. Yes, yeahing that the Third Act is complete bullshit. Yet so, on March, ten Othousand eighteen n Vente Mary wrote to Byron and Closing Gifford's letter andwriting. As I told you in my last letter that Mr g was very much place,was pleased fit back to and, as you know, he takes a paternal interest inyour literary while being he's crafting a shit sandwich right now. That's whathe's doing I a supervisor does that he does not by any means like theconclusion now. I am venturing upon the confidence with which your Lordship hasever honored me and sending the enclosed. I fear I am not doing right.I am not satisfied, but I venture and then in truth, that you will make apoint of returning them turns out Mary's been reading too much of theAustin he was publishing. I have told him that I have made a letter from them,but there is so much friendly, good sense in them that I cannot refrain.I'm sure you can, and I am almost sure that you will improve what begins andcontinue so beautifully in a drama of any kind. The last act is thedifficulty and this you must summon out surmount the difficulty Lord Be. Thatwas a good, an that's a good sandwich. Yeah, I don't. How do how do you think?Byron would have reacted to that not well. I think he would have had alittle ten from throwing some soda water yeah at someone. Absolutely theAbbot is become a good man and the spirits are brought in at the death.You will find, I think, some good poetry in this new act here and thereand, if so, print it without sending me further proofs under Mister Gifford'scorrection, if he will have the goodness to overlook it. I think youcan read that is like quite forgiving or you can read it. This quite turf M,like don't send me any more drafts, get him to look at it. I'm busy with mymonkeys, probably both so there's that all right, let's talk about incest, okay, I I don't have any. I don't have anychokes up my sleep. This is okay, so incest, it is a hallmark of gothicfiction. You get it in the gate in the castle of a Tranto in particularly yougood in the mysterious mother and there's a lot of it. We know it was.You know, edipus threet, based on this Hyppolitus, it's everywhere, it's fromalways all the Hypatus, I think, is an interesting example, because it's theso there's a married couple, theseus and Phedra and then theseus's son fromHippolita, who he raved is Hypolito, and then he comes back and he marysPhedra and Phedra hyppolites age he's a much young she's, a much younger wifeand a polite falls in love with theseus the same age, the much sexier ion oftheseus. So I mean then she kills herself because she can't be with him,but whatever you know everyone's, like Oh incest, but it's I don't know youknow it's complicated. They not well. I sound like the devil's advocate, butthey're not not related. Are they? She US said it not me ye no she's, justgetting with stepmother senange yeah yeah yeah, her step son, which is okay,it's weird, but okay, makes Pelio. Incest is a hallmark of the gothicvillain and you'd. Be surprised who talks about this was lit. He wrote anarticle called ancestors romantic...

...symbol. He says it has universalinterest. Incest is an dramatic theme involving as it does a passionateconflict between individual desire, which may or not may or may not beuniversally shared, the most universal taboos. He also says the Gothic uses ofthe insiste to symbolize a basically a rational element in the order of things,a capricious fate or to symbolize the psychologically dark and irrational theunconscious and unnatural desires in the heart of man. So he takes thepsychoanalytical approach. Essentially Ra lo says it's some. I think he saysit is classifiable as it is with melodramatic materials in general. Itappears specially developed in those times when romantisme surges nearest toits ultimate pathological frontiers. The desire to deal with such a filmtheme is in itself a pad pathological feature of romantic psychology thatthat's I've, said they're, vague and unhelpful. Judgmental, I think perhaps he also says barren, never deals withincest as a misfortune occasion by ignorance, as you sort of see anedapted, but always as a deliberate action. The people know they're beingincestuous, whereas in something like the monk, he doesn't know it's hissister when he rates her yeah la so it is a different sort of psychologicalturmoil we're getting with yes now. This is significantly important to me.We're going to look through the evidence of the incest on we're goingto talk about like whether or not it seems sympathetic. So, let's go, hesays at the start. I never quelled an enemy save in my just defence. Mywrongs, roll on those I should have cherished so we get this hint that hehurt people he loved. He goes on and when he's talking about a start, hesays she was like me and linements her eyes to her. Her features all to thevery tone even of her voice. They said they said we like to mind but softenedall and tempered into beauty, and she had the same loan thoughts andwanderings the quest of his knowledge and a mind to comprehend the universe,as well as tenderness, humility and humility. I loved her and destroyed herso she's very similar to him. He's a well wasn't just sticking back toMilton Satin not to bring him up again. No, not specifically saying justthinking of Paradise. Lass is he's being a cat apart to Adam. Is thatshe's like Adam but tempered and soften yes? Well, it's the beautiful on thesublime the were seeing so man for the sublime and then a start is beautifulas well, but to me, I've always looked at it and gone a, but she kind of hassublime qualities, she's the quest of hiding knowledge and a mind tocomprehend the universe like that's still, we sublime an she apes as afucking ghost so yeah pretty freaking now loves me too much as I loved thee.He says to her when she comes back as a ghost. We were not made to torture.Thus each other, though, were the deadly. Is Sin to love as we have love,so that's the big hint. That's the take Um yeah. I think the only way that youcould like fight about this is like. Are they siblings or are they twins?Because is it what's worse? Yeah? I think youhave to ask George R R Martin and then obviously the servants say later on.This is a last sort of last big hint with him, the sole companion of hiswanderings and watch things her, whom all earthly things that live, the onlything he seemed to love, as he indeed by blood, was bound to do the lady astart his and he was cut off. So I mean virons, just fucking with us, he'sliterally being like Mister and then next rhyme ends with and dramatic pulls,and I I like has some advertisements: Do that thing where they suggestthey're about to say the word asked and then there's just like a beat. That'swhat he did. So I mentioned that you know there were previous examples, sowe've got Horswell Paul's, a mysterious mother, a seven hundred and sixty eightyou've got the Romans of the forest. Even Ninety one we've got Mathew Lewisis the monk. It's also hinted out in the bride of a Betas and Byron says ina letter. No one else could there obtain that degree of intercourseleading to genuine affection? I had nearly made them too much akin to eachother he's talking about the brother and sister or the two main charactersin it and those the wild passions of the east and some of the great examplesin Alfieri which is Merran, seven hundred and eighty nine four, because apity she's a hare of sixteen thirty, three and shila the bride of Messina,eight Hune o three to stop short of anti quick. So s saying like it's asympathetic, it's a nice trait! We like this. He says the best poet to do it. It'salso in shelley. I need to point that out before we sort of go on, shelleyhas intestens in a laster most famously the the the century. The CENCI, hisItalian one, the revolt of Islam EPISC, a Pipkin is crible an meme. So it'sthere and it's a thing. That's been done by other people, but Byron's useof the theme, I think, is significant. Why do you think I that might be?Because we are meant to feel sorry for him it of like? But why would byron beparticularly interested in so ah because he is an own right and ownvoices writer in this particular scrases, what he preached as he fucked his half sister right. Sooften I mean, as we said, you know, readings of Viron, often newsbiographical information, which I think is hard not to do because of how muchof Byron's own biography he very clearly and pointedly and purposely putin the play, but then because afraid...

...people often try and dopsychoanalytical readings and just ow it's representation of his own anxietyaround this. I think, though, Joseph Carroll is quite right when he saysFreiden, readings of literary taste almost inevitably introduced,distorting ideas of incest and cast trace, astrain anxiety and a form ofliterary analysis that appeals to evolutionary psychology, rather thanFreudian psychoanalysis will have a vastly improved access to the deepstructure of literary representations. So basically it's psychologicalpsychoanalytical theory is hog wash for the most part. What I think is morehelpful, her understanding and you're going to have to sort of hang on withme for a bit, because I'm not sure this is fully right, but I think this is asignificant contribution to the discussion if we're doing, if we'realready doing a biographical reading and we're already doing forty andreadings and people keep doing Friday and readings, I think we have to atleast leave some space, a tiny box for a devolutionary psychology. Reading.Sorry, for those that don't know, literally Dolans is a developing schoolof literary theory that takes ideas from evolutionary psychology, and itbasically applies them to literature, to help us try and understand them init different or more in depth way and by evolutionary ideas. It means likeunderstandings about family relationship, social relationships. Why?We read how we read why that's helpful to us, but I think it is quite helpfulfor helping us understand things like incest, which have been shown to beevolutionary adaptations right. You have to avoid incest in order toencourage diversity in the gene pool and in turn, reduce the risk of geneticdisease, produce healthy descendants and ensure the persistence of theindividuals DNA right, that's evolution at work. So if incest avoidance is partof keeping the gene pool dive, how do we create incest avoidance and the guy?Who first came up with it? His name was Edward met, Wester Mark and he firsthypothesized that the reason individuals fell, an innate aversion toincest be Isin, one thousand eight hundred and ninety one was because theybecame averse to sexual behavior with those they grew up in close proximityto so, basically anyone that they grew up with siblings parents don't burnthem because the Gan pool goes out the window and then, since then, westernmarks there has large living supported by evolutionary biologist like this.Yes, it makes sense. We see it now as an adaptation. So with that in mind, Ithink it's worth pointing out the barn didn't grow up with Augusta. He likeknew of her and was writing. Let us to her while he was at Harrow School, buthe didn't know her and he didn't grow up in close proximity with her and heonly sort of rejoined with her as a young, adult and a young man, and Ithink part of this is like baron felt lonely with everyone else you alwaysprobably to get on with women. He had this very like strong relationship withhis sister and that grew into a romantic relationship, and he didn'tactually have the aversion sort of that had developed to stop him but knew froma social perspective. It was bad, so I think it's one of these very rareexamples where it's like it's incest, but because they haven't grown up withthat Adepti in place. He doesn't feel that way, even though he and hissociety think he should feel that way. So He's constantly walking around withthis inner turmoil, knowing that I shouldn't have slept with my sister orhad any kind of romantic relationship with my sister, but also it was prettygreat and I loved her. And what do you people care, and why should you have asay in it, so it kind of defends it and represents it sympathetically. Myoverall point here right is in all these other examples of the Gothic carewhere they've had an incestuous relationship, it's often an expressionof patriarchal violence or oppression, whereas he are, I mean you could do afeminist reading and read it as how he oppressed Augusta and whatever, but Ijust don't think there's any evidence there for that, like what is also goingon is he's trying to defend this kind of relationship between brother andsister and showing how how much suffering Manford goes through afterthat, you feel sympathy for him and and his plight. What do you think the likeit s? I think so I think it's maybe the clearest sort of reading you can dofrom Byron's life to what he's expressing in his Pon, and I think soyeah I mean challenge me if you want I'm still trying to develop this idea,but I think it contributes. I think it's another explanation. It'ssomething else and like yes, you can't empirically prove that barn slip withhis sister, but most baron scholars agree. We're pretty sure we had a babywith the letters are pretty damning, particularly what we have left, I meanthe worst ones will burn so what we have left if they're damning, I hate tothink what was gotten rid of I've lost. You then you're dead. No I'm thinking. Okay, Byron also says in cane by theway, because, obviously, the first family everything is in ses. Ada AsksLuci far whether or not loving a cane is a sin, and he says no, not yet itwill one day be it will one day will be in your children, acknowledging that,like in very fallen society, it will become a sin sort of suggesting andkind of like not necessarily pre fall in society, but Ellen's Society earlysociety- It wasn't. It was a better time or something like Biron clearlyfeels sympathy to these kind of feelings, perhaps because he didn'tunderstand them himself because he didn't have them because he didn't growup in close proximity with his sister. The same thing now as yer like, Oh youknow, I knew them when I was very young they're like a brother. So no that'sreally gross yeah. Now that makes sense. Definitely so he would have seen it ifwe were going to go with this reading. He would have seen the aversion toancestors more of a sort of social...

...convention. Yes and a taboo rather thanyeah, and I and look it might be a bit of both you might there might be a dayone day where all social convention is gone and it's okay. I would argue,based on my understanding of evolution, evelation or psychologist, that peoplewould still want not want to sleep with those that they grew up in closeproximity to, even though doing so would have like no adverseramifications because, as you use, contraception and everyone would be aconsenting adult and there's like no technical problem, but everyone feelsweird about it because we have developed incesto version. Sorry, are you? Are you developing an idea?Yeah? I understand I don't. I don't want to just repeat what you've saidback. I was okay, so my whole point here is: He makes the Gothic Villain.He makes fun of the huge hole marks of the gothic villain more sympathetic. Ithink that blends him with all of this other stuff he's doing making Satanmore sympathetic. Taking these ideas of the wandering Jew of the by runningcure, the baronage is a hugely sympathetic figure, who is still likeincredibly problematic at his very core right. So we're dealing with thesesatanic themes, we're dealing with gothic villain themes. It all comestogether and one of the one of the ways that baron could do.That was because he had the ability to sympafy to something that nobody elsecould possibly a yeah, at least in the case of men friend yeah, and I mean, asI said, in testis kind of a common theme and its work. I guess it's thething of like how much is it? How much is it a theme of the period andsomething that he was just sort of playing with, but I just think therelationship with Augusta would have made it much more personal from hit forhim. It's also in prodest, by the way, there's that incestuous relationshipbetween sin, death and Satan it's generally a whole mark of evil is thepoint. But here it's somehow a whole mark of Satan being a sympatheticfigure. He is a better figure because of his loving relationship with hissister. Even we recognize that M, so yeah yeah. I know that makes senseactually because the same thing that sort of damns man for it, which is hisincestuous relationship, is the one thing that makes him more sympathetic,because when you said love is one of the it's something that's likeredeeming qualities, it's redeeming quality, but also like again from anevelation a psychology perspective. The capacity did a lot of the capacity tocare for your children, the capacity for essentially engaging on altruistic,behavior, als pro those sal behavior with other people in society, whetherthat being your immediate family or beyond, is and indicated at otherpeople that you are a good person like were meant to read that and makeconclusions about that and in terms of our own social dealing with that person,and one of the running theories is and we'll talk about this later. It'sdeveloped like sort of Brian Boyd, Joseph Carrol, Veris, others, aJonathan Copshaw they're talking about as acting the reason we likestorytelling on the reason we like very so much is. It creates the conditionsto where we can practice this kind of social interaction or a very low stakesenvironment. Where you can go upside like Satan turns out. He was a bad guy.Oh well, there's no social like consequences for what I did and you canjust kind of experiment. With these figures. It creates conditions forsocial experimentation without consequence, like all three seasons asHannibal Yeah. So it's essentially very important for us to learn social cos ofbehavior, whether they be good or bad is the point, so the ones where ourattention is drawn to characters because they are interesting. But thereasons they are interesting is often in line with these kind of socialparameters right. So we think old. Manford is a good guy, because he'snice, Swiss sister he's nice to people he's nice to the hunter, is nice to thewitch and then she's mean to him at the end. He's nice to the Abbot, eventhough he's bothering him- and he tells the demon to sot off like he doesn'tactually do anything anti social to anyone on manipulative to anyone, eventhough he goes to the caves of death, and we look at that. Girl he's a goodguy, but he has fucked his sister. So, in the end, he's characterized by thissort of like deep set contradiction in being both a good and bad person at anSatan, all roads lead back to sing yeah exactly it's, and it becomes verydifficult for us to kind of reconcile and decide what we think about thisfigure, because in many ways he's likable to us, but also many ways werelike no thank you, which is why we still talking about him ever is likethat. So I think that is just like to adance the existing scholarship and theand talking about the character types that exists within Manford and what Wirein is trying to do there. I think that is a kind of more modern theoryand discussion that you kind of bring and bring to it to examine not only dothe development of existing characteristics but like why those areinteresting to us still now and why they're interesting to them, then, andwhy they are experimenting with those as to join us next time. On of theDevil's Party, join us for sin, Sin and delicious sin: We're going to livedeletion. What are we going to be doing an? I think it's easy to stop withBireno around a little bit and about me Ofinna from them Yohe's just a mole,I'm not going in order and I'm like nonante.

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