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5A – Lords and Ladies - Part 1

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The first of two episodes on Lords and Ladies (1992), covering
quantum continuities, simulacra warrior queens, performative dressing,
glamour, the ethics of borrowing, vegetarianism, pagan landmarks, horny
gods and more!

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts  

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com 

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod  

WHAT'S DIS world? It's deer's world. Podcast analysis. Yeah, so I'm Josh and I'm Alice. Yeah, you're about how this goes and where the unseen academicals correct. And this episode we are finally talking about a book that's not which is abroad. We're going to talk about the fourth book in the which is series, the fourteen one overall, which is Lords and ladies, wherein we returned to Shakespeare as Pratchett's whichee trier must defend the Kingdom of Lankra against invading elves and a waning respect for Foklore, all while planning a wedding. Quite A to do list. You have to plan a wedding. No, no, that is quite a to do list. Oh okay. Yeah, so this one, it's not going to be a three part of but it is going to be another two part of, so we'll be saving most of the Alf discussion for part two. So this episode we're going to be totally on our bullshit as we use the book to Explore Quantum continuities, similar coro Warrior Queen's performative dressing, glamor the ethics of borrowing, vegetarianism, Pagan landmarks, horny Gods and more, and I have a baron a Kiro so. So, in honor of the Rupule's Dragos Recap podcast, I'd usually get you to name two things you liked and one thing you did not about the book, but I'm going to go first this time because, Alice, I love this book. Okay, okay, all right, I give it so much. Yeah, I as I was telling you before we started, I'm I've almost finished a complete reread of the discworld series. I've read everything but small gods and the death books is the next one. Was We're doing. So I'm saving them so I don't double up, but I've read everything else and I think this is my third favorite discworld book, after thief of time and and small guards, which I haven't revisited. Yeah, I really like this book. So I'm a little bit affranchis to see what you think about it. If I have to narrow it down to two things I like when things I do not. One thing I really like is the writing. I think this is a really well written book. Definitely like he's hit, he's stride after some of the earlier ones we've been looking at. I just I can't point anything in particular. I just think this book is incredibly well written and just really good. The other thing I like are the elves. I think this is I've read a lot of stuff about elves, not a lot that we're going to talk about actually, but I've been reading some other fantasy books about elves and things and I think this is my favorite depiction of elves. I really like them. I think it's a cool twist and there are other books that have done, you know, twists on elves and stuff, but I'm a Sucker for a dark Elf right, something out for hell boy too, or even thought too. I'll get into it, but I really like the depiction of elves in this book. As far as things I dislike, I had a really hard time finding anything I dislike about this book and I narrowed it down to you're smoking, like you've got to. I've got a whole itinerary, but I've narrowed it down to that. There is one other thing that I dislike about this book that we'll talk about some point. But as far as the one thing I think just does not work, I do not like the line go ahead bake my keyche I don't like it. It's Corny and also just that's not. When Dirty Harry says make my day, he's he wants them him to do the thing so that he can react, and Margaret's that's not what she's doing when she says that. I just I just think it's a bad line. It doesn't need to be there. It doesn't appreciate there's no twist. I hated that line and he's used that elsewhere, ye in the other books, because what I'm learning going through them is he recycles a lot of jerks and things. He uses the go ahead, make my day thing like a lot. It seems to be something he returns to. So I feel like it's a bit cheap. But that is about the only thing I don't like. The other thing I don't like that, just to set it up, is I don't like the footnote about hull at the end ever, the taming of the shirt. But there was a there's like two sentences in this whole book that I don't like. Alice, please don't Ta thing you like about the book. No one think you did not. Well, I'M gonna put your ears because I also love there's okay, the books that we I have reread as an adult human because everyone should be read. TERRYTRACTURES is fult. This has been the most compelling one that I wanted to return to on my brakes at work when my brain was basically fudge. I enjoyed reading it in the break room. I enjoyed reading it on the toilet in secret. I enjoyed running away from my partner on the zoom calls to finish this off. So I complain to you when I opened it up that it was four hundred pages because I had marking and us so much stuff to do that at that point in time, but it was a welcome retreat from everything else. I very much enjoyed the actual book good. I also thought what really worked quite well for it was the fact that it was very contained just in one community and the relationships between people in that community. I think it as well as the writing. That was a real difference to what we've seen so far. In terms of two things I like. The one thing I did not. I've broken the rules, but okay, boyster, the Satanic streaking you, it's true. I really enjoy the characterization of variance and Margaret and their relationship and the way Paschet was exploring you know what a king look like, I'm what a queen looked like, and their ideas of what it should be and then trying to achieve those but in doing it actually bringing something much better than the traditional view to the table. So, you know, variance was a fool, but now he's a actually being...

...a good king because he's buying books to figure out what a king is and then putting that into practice. The other thing was in terms of their relationship, it takes us, you know, to the part that happens after the kiss, and challenges the Rometicization of, you know, love between royal people and shows the reality of it and then finding each other, which I found really nice because as a little child, your exposed, particularly is a girl child, you're exposed to all these stories of, you know, you kissed Prince Charming and then that's it. You live happily ever after, but you know it won't beyond that. The other thing I enjoyed was the Shakespearean comedy scenes, just because I'm a cycle for a good check stream comedy scene and every time you know that of the weaver and plumb, of the Baker or whatever, we're on having a good time. I particularly like I don't think much of my part. It's too small and it's his whole wife. But I have other jokes. There are a couple of things, well, one main thing. I also really like Cassan under but will come back to that. is He your dark hero? He is okay. I didn't like the references to our world. There's a reference to Poland, there's a reference to Yankee doodle in a crowd of bar in Atlanta and lady Jane, as in Lady Jane Gray. I think he snucked that in under the radar because he talks about her as an evil, tempted gray falcon with the Falcon Guy. It was a bit on the nose. I was like, pick a world you can't stop occur. Stop it, that's that's it. I mean I think he justifies that stuff in this book because you have the quantum things. But we'll get to that. And I'm glad that you did some CASS and I research because that is something I went to go on research and then just bailed out of because I wasn't really finding anything interesting. So if you ever take on him, I'm yeah, just more. Is A bionic guy more than a Cassan over finger but yes, okay, I think Cassin unders interesting. We've talked about bionic heros and dark here is a little bit already on the podcast. Interesting in the sense that it's making a joke about the dwarf being the Guy who thinks, you know, he can grow too everyone else the standards, which is perhaps a bit mean, obviously, and he really hits it off with nanny old, but his attempts at flattery and wooing of her playing into that traditional idea of Cassan over as a sexy cat who just kind of corrupts woman by nature of his sexiness. But I think what is actually interesting about Cassan unders Soho his relationship with nanny og. He becomes a deemed by erona Kiro because he's posting about, telling all these lies, make you all these stories, trying to represent himself, I think, consciously trying to represent represent himself as a rakish byronic figure, and then he realizes that he doesn't have to do that through his relationship with Danny Ogg, who just likes him for who he is and become for deemed of falls back on himself a little bit more and the step ladder Ya back. He sort of parallels mcgrad in that way, right, he drops the facade. Yeah, and I really liked him as a character because, I mean he's just a character that's completely drawn from a pun. Like Pratchett came up with Cassan under the opposite of Cassanova and then built the character out of that. Like all of this, it's just laves is like. Yeah, it's just revolved funny fellow. Yeah, I sort of remember him, like Sewan og, coming back in some of the later books as well, but he doesn't. I think he's briefly in CARPA Juggulum, but not really. Also, I want to thank people for the Fan Mail. Keeps sending that the specific we like Allis Fan mail. Yeah, yeah, so I gave an outline of the episode at the start. Bit broadly speaking, next part is where we're going to talk about Shakespeare and elves. So we're not really touching on that here so much. And then this part is about everything else, but, as always, on a start with a bit of the novels critical reception. So this is a book that Andrew and Butler gives four out of five in his pocket essentials guide, calling it one of the less satisfying, which novels, but still good stuff, which, yes, hard disagree from me. Disagree also here. What do you mean less satisfying? I was most satisfying. Yeah, given that he gives weird sisters five out of five. So obviously we're on different ends of the witch Pratchett spectrum. there. Roland Green from bookless conversely called it a particularly excellent example of this world, saying it's only drawback was that, when applied to his large a body count as this novel affords, Pratchett's light tone is a little unsettling. But otherwise the book is a superior example of projets imitable, seemingly endless, fertile wit. So bit more on the same page with that one. And another thing I do appreciate this book is kind of the darkness and the violence of it, which ties into the portrayal of the elves. They yeah, I think it's really cool, but then I think it works because it is balanced out by the humor. Right. Yeah, mcgrat, who we're going to talk about, is like she's a stone cold killer. Yeah, but also she's this ridiculous wet head and in the in a armor made from pots and pans. I think the balance. They're really works for me. Also, in the newly Nebula Award Winning Two Thousand and twenty biography the magic of Terry Pratchett, Mark Burrows calls this book a fan favorite, so it seems like it has a reputation, although he doesn't directly discuss it anywhere else in the book, and even then it's only setting it up as a prequel to the final disc word novel, the Shepherd's crown. So the focus in that book when it comes to the which is is on weird sisters and which is abroad. So as much as this book does seem like it's liked, it hasn't got as much critical attention...

...as some of the other ones. I guess it's because it's focused on being a good story and there's stuff in it for the others are trying to do other things. Like he's a mutually exclusive yeah, we want to do fairy tales, but here he's like that's do a story with dark els. It'll be fun like that. That's the difference. But when you say which is abroad, weird sisters, which I know from editing this, I keep swapping those two. I call granny nanny and I call, which is abroad. Weird sisters. Those are the two things I do. But something I like about this book, I'm among the many things, is that I think this is doing what weird sisters thought it was doing. Yeah, I could the show with the Shakespeare things at least because it's doing something new and interesting as not just rehashing. Yeah, we don't have this objective view of granny sitting there going that's not how things happened. She's in the story and she's working at from within. I think that's very cool and this book is also, but probably one of the reasons you liked it. Maybe, although you're one thing you dislikes it is maybe not, as this is where the the continuity of the series really kicks in. Yeah, so in a rare author's note at the start of this book, Pratchett acknowledges that at this point fourteen books in previously the discworld books were meant to just be their standalone things, that they were all in the same universe, but it was just sort of a setting for him to go and write these different adventures. At this point he couldn't ignore the history of what had gone before. So he uses this quantum idea, I think, to sort of fudget over some of the previous continuity discrepancies. And in fact, in when we were talking about that in the previous episodes, I said I couldn't find anything that suggested Pratchett was writing these stories and slightly parallel universes. He's not. But there is a famous a quote, or semi famous quote attributed to Pratchett from the old message boards where he says there are no continuity errors in discworld, there are only parallel universes. Okay, well, that's a cop out. We all know that and know he and he is acknowledging that like he's not that. He's not doing that, but he is using that to fudge over it. And here we get that actually built into the fiction, where we have ponder coming and explaining the the con tem theories and granny weather wax, because she's so tapped into the world and she's so smart and intelligent picking up on the quantum resonances from our world. So rather just being this implicit influence in weird sisters, when mcgrant knows about the pricking of her thumbs but she doesn't know why, here granny can actually see to our world to pull these references and she uses them against the Elf Queen Rant. But you didn't like that. I didn't like the explicit references. The quantum thing is cool, but he's using them to explain other things and it's the narrator, not granny, and that bothered me. Our okay, right, yes, when it was the narrator voice, like with the gormagas stuff in equal rights. Yeah, yeah, so we do have some like non quantum continuity. There is acknowledgement that granny has been to Unseen University a couple of times previously. On this by the way, rid Curley says that there was a weather works art chancellor a few years ago. Do you reckon that's Esk? No, no, that is because you haven't read the other books. That is there's an ass chancellor weather wax in well. This is one of the ones you've read. The Arch Chancellor of Unseen University in the light fantastic is a well wax. So he's re used that name for whatever reason. So he are with the pulling the continuity together. That's him creating an explanation for that going on. It's my distant cousin, which I think is inconsequential, but also sort of implies that like there is something genetic about which craft. Yeah, yeah, so plays into that a bit. So you know her PhD Thesis Weird Sisters And Wild Women that we've talked about a bit. Definitely. Antonio Lawless observes that for most of the Lords and ladies, granny weatherwax's greatest struggle is not with the queen of the elves but with the intrusion of memories of alternate lives, pointing out that the only thing that could defeat as me whether wax, is to make her unsure about who and what she is. What do you think about that? Als? Yeah, okay, I follow her line well, because which is which is abroad ended with her saying it's me, I'm the real one. She's so sure of her self. Where is here, our identities being fractured? Yep, yeah, but yeah, she still pulls the same trick by saying that when Riddcley saying I could have been different. which where do you think of? When ride, she goes Noah, went right here. So she's still overcoming this with, like her self, assuredness and to jump in quickly with the feminist perspective as well. It is nice to see a woman, a strong woman, in a fantasy novel that didn't settle and, you know, followed her dreams and did the hard thing, which was to leave the safe, settled life and do something else. It's good to see that and that it worked out. Although from another point of view, and we'll talk about this when we get to masquerade, which is where we're going to go into the maiden mother and the crow in the triple goddess, is that granny weather wax is so powerful because she is a virgin crown. Good for her, but also it's playing into the idea of sex being impure. Well, I like it here all right here, namely yeah, and in terms of this granny weather wax asserting herself assurance, as laws observes, the young as me, weather wax is saved from the temptation of the the queen of the elves. Why? Her own suspiciousness about any outside force demanding her trust. The Queen of the ELVES are saying I'll make you powerful and she's saying no, I'm going to do it myself. So that's still we're getting that theme of Self Assurance, self identify self confidence being the ultimate power, I guess, and it beinging in a woman, which is nice. Just going...

...back to say it's just didn't meant for it. I was just reading rereading them for the other day and he's say no to the which the Alps and are are like no, I will not bow down, I will get a start back myself. But it's that's these as a woman, but it's always meant. It's very rarely women. Women are always the temperatress's right. This is part of the witch chials is when becoming witches by being tempted by elves and demon so it's an inversion of that, I guess. The corner stuff also gives us a glimpse of what the world would be like if granny weather wax never chose to be a witch. Indeed, it is, and lords of ladies, that we learned that she did choose to be a witch, rather than being naturally destined, like Esq was, to be a wizard. Again, this, this sort of contra contradicts stuff that we get in later books, like at the end of Carpea Juggling, it's implied that she's the descendant of Black Allie, as we mentioned before the tie in with arch Chancellor Ridclorie, that there is something too, if not genetics. I mean it said that Lunkro is somewhere where you get lots of witches and wizards coming from. There's something naturally magic about the area, in the land itself. So I'm not sure how much credit we can put into well, granny weather acte just did it all through hard work when clearly she's predisposed. But Oh, it's a mix, it's a soup right, it's complex. But no, I really like this. I really like learning, at least in this book, that Granny Weather Wax chose to be a witch, that she was knocking on the door saying teach me how to be a witch, rather than being picked by the covers. She wouldn't go home, would you? She came down the garden and wouldn't leave until she would teach it on the neck. Could you made a point there about the nature nursed after over? So there's always lots of that. But there's more of that in this book again with Cassin under who they go down into the caves and now he's making fun of him and says I was born at half born. But you know I'm not one. And then as they go further down, somewhere in the back pocket of his jeans, we get the high, high hopes. So Patrick keeps foot flopping back and forth on this. It's good to see that he's mixing the to up and showing us that it's a sup but yeah, interesting. Yeah, and when Margaret Declares that she has given up witchcraft, it's because she doesn't think she is a witch in the bone like granny and nanny. So there is the simplicit idea that you have to be disposed to it, because even later in the Tiffany aking books she sort of does the same thing. She's retreading granny weather waxes steps and they're saying, oh well, you would have never been chosen, you've done this all through your free will. But at the same time Tiffany aking is very much predisposed to witchcraft. So mixed messages about that. It's complicated. Yeah, just just what we say when we don't know how to resolve something. That is it's complicated, it's it, that's it. Yeah, but I'm not quite satisfied because it's like less of a like at fifty or a mix, as he's giving you a hundred percent of both. Granny so powerful because she chose, because she's self deceman, but she's also so powerful because she's Black Alice has descendant. So he's sort of going all in on both sides rather than it being a mix of the two. But mcgrat, while she might not be a witch in the bone, keeps being the fucking coolest, because mcgrat is a similar coro Warrior Queen, and that's sick as shit. You're not in. Yeah, you're about to go off on Mon so I's keeping quiet. Well, I want is that? What do you think about hackles mcgrat? God, I've got notes on this. So, yeah, it's exciting. It's good shit. She thought tell me, I'm she's Badasses. How love that for her. Yeah, so she takes on the character of the Legendary Warrior Queen Yun see, who never existed and whose armor was made from nanny oggs, old pots and pants. Love it. And this is playing with an idea that ties in with mid someone night stream, which is Queen Elizabeth Right's, the Elizabethan Fairy Tales. Queen Elizabeth was associated with the Fairy Queen, as will discuss in parts. Who but Queen Elizabeth, also famously war armor while addressing British troope troops at Tilbury. Yeah, so she addressed the she will, I'm a while addressing the troops at till worry while they were getting ready to repel the Spanish Armada, although, of course Elizabeth never fought herself and apparently you didn't even put on the helmet. Had A page carrier behind her. But she addressed the troops. And what did she say, Elis? She said, I know I have the body of a week and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and a King of England too. Yeah, so even even in doing this, she's yeah, that great, but it's good. Are you like it? Because I was really put off by this. Even though I know I have the body of a week and feeble woman, it's saying that. Yeah, I don't know. Elizabeth knows that she's will talk about this more we do the fairy queen next next episode, but she knows that you kind of have to play into the bullshit in order to get them on side. So she does. And Hi, I know I'm a fee bolted woman, but watch me also completely undermine that stereos of you. But also she didn't actually fight, so it's called bullshit. I don't think she would have been allowed to, but yeah, I mean she's Queen, she should have been allowed to. Well, as a turning a phrase that describes it in her book very DC as chariot, which is all about warrior Queen's and I do recommend checking that out if you're more interested in this. While while she did don armor, she was still playing up her feminine delicacy during the address. So she wore a silver plate, curious, but it was over a white velvet dress. The earl of Leicester describe this armor as casting her as the most dety and sacred thing we have in this world to care for. So she's playing up rather than being the strong warrior Queen who's leading the charge. The armor is more protective. It's like, look, I'm this delicate female and this white velvet dress...

...that I need your my armor. Right. Her troops are arm or rather than a sword, I guess. Is the implication there. So it's not quite this queen. Elizabeth characterized herself by playing into the the idea of the petruck and lover. You're familiar with this I am not so the but truck and love. It was a form of love poetry, obviously begun by pet truck and then used very common at this time, and it would put the woman on a pedestal, essentially, and the man would devote himself to her as her slave and her servant, and you can beat me up and I'll put my coat in the mud for you and that sort of thing, uh Huh, and it was almost a way of consoling the woman for the fact that, you know, once they are married, she was trapped in slavery forever. But it was a way of creating this this woman who was at once desirable and to be feared, okay, and a strange kind of product, and she played into it a lot, and a lot of the literary representations of her use it as well. Spencer, obviously a lot, which is why it in to mind, but others as well, and I think there's something to this again, and that she has to present herself as formidable but also desirable, and she's constantly having to balance that out and in the way she's maintaining power, because obviously they didn't have police forces and they didn't have security teams and things like that. So to keep them from assassinating her and other things other shouldn't Niggins, she had to have this public image that was at once desirable and also forboding. So I think that takes us a little bit further along explaining her choice of armor. Yeah, now that's an interesting take because, yeah, I guess I was looking sort of down on olds. But then I do know that she played into her feminine to the ALT and had to balance this and was getting a lot of criticism. But I saw this. I mean, obviously it's manipulative, but I sort of not not really doing what she it says on the tin, or the Iron Curio, so to speak. But also, although the warrior, the idea of the warrior woman, the Warrior Queen, is seen as a bit of a feminist or matriarchal subversion, it's a pretty common phenomenon, I found, the more I'm looking into this, like there are warrior Queen's everywhere. I mean hippolider, the Amazons, yeah, the amazons in the Bailiad and and all through, I guess more relevant to Pratchett and Midsummistra and Shakespeare thing, like all through British law and especially the Artherian mythos. You have the British Queen Bodicia, her led a rebellion against the Romans in the first century of the common era and was later, apocrophe, depicted as having sides on her chariot wheels, and the style of the Irish Warrior God que Color Hen or color here, and I don't know how to say that, but yeah, this is ongoing representations of warrior Queens all throughout European and British mythology. Of course, we talked about with regard to sleeping beauty, there was brin. Hilda is the warrior Queen there as well. So yeah, there are a lot of warrior kings, Warrior men and stuff, but there's also like, this isn't a new introducer version that comes on later. Warrior Queens are as old as literature and mythology itself, as they should be. I was thinking also, I was just thinking of Joan of arc the whole time. Yeah, and yes, Spencer Belfaving, Britamark Ratigand Yeah, my reading of the lineage is in the fairy queen, which is an epic poem by Edmund Spencer and Alice can correct me on this is that the the modern lineage, the Queen Elizabeth Lineage, is descended from Boodicia. But there's also the idea that Queen Elizabeth and the tutors asserted their right to the throne by saying we're descended from King Arthur. Yes, because of Joseph, of Varamitha right her King Arthur, like not a thing, not a thing, not a thing. So worked that circle back for it well as what I was like, Oh, the tutors are they're based on mythology, because it's all it's all crap. It's a Similarcora. But also all monarchies are based on myths, the idea that the God is this, the king is the sovereign of God, like it's all bullshit. Yeah, sorry, I guess it's not particular, but it is this idea of stories becoming part of the real world, which obviously, Lords and ladies and the witches cycle is all about. You bring us around. So after the war of the roses, like Henry the seventh, yeah, took power and he just had no justification for being there, just none, like he was the seventh son of a seventh son of a seventh son. We could do it that way if we wanted. Like no, really, actually no, but it'd be cool if he was. The point is he was about related to anyone who've been on the throne, as I am to Tim Mention Um Alice is garden saga, my God and save you, I am a mentionist by creed. So the tudors to the throne and they needed a way of justifying it. So they took this ancient mythology and tried to suggest that they were descendance from King Arthur and legitimize the King Arthur myth is something was really even though it wasn't. And their way of doing it was saying that, well, Joseph of Arimithia bought the Cup, the Holy Grail, back from where was it? Over there, you know, in the in the east, with the BOT of Christ in it, and it belonged to King Arthur and they descended from that family and therefore they're actually the one true royal family because they descended from Jesus somehow. That was that was their line of they are not descended from Jesus but, you know, linked to it. They had the cup and they were they bought then the cup, and so they were the ones who should have been in power, and that's how they got around everything else that happened in between. That's...

...the that's the linearge argument, and that's why they use King Arthur, which is ridiculous. But yeah, that interesting. He is. Okay, right, Queen's our myths that don't exist, that are but also worry kings, King Arthur not real. It's all bullshit. Yeah, sad though, stormed the best deal. Yeah, sure we should. We do it. So I've never been more our age than when I went to Versailles and saw Marie as a Marie it's little doll garden, her life size dog garden, but she got the servants to dress up as dolls and Flam Yeah, who like? I know they already liked. Did revolt, but I wanted to re revolt. Great, bring her back and just chop it down again. It's a lot. As as the Falcon or the B guy says, we can have a suspiciously Republican Grin. I like that line, not the American sense. No, no, but so that is. And what's her name? Ry Internet, not a cool queen. You know who is a cool queen? It's mcgrat regrets the coolest queen not real, but she's real in our heart and, as lass observes, taken as a trilogy weird sisters, which is abroad and wells and ladies, can be seen as a drama of the evolution of mcgrat Alic from her sad attempts to behave in an occult manner in the first novel to our first attempts to find her own identity in the second, to our virtual renunciation of the image of the witch and the third, which enables her to assume the same power which the older witches have had throughout, which is interesting because, yeah, the laws are saying there that she is. She's not renounciating, renounciaty renouncing witchcraft, she's renouncing the image of the witch or the rules of the great weather waxing and nanny OGG's idea representation of witchcraft, rules and outlines of a witch. Now this is sort of out of mind by mcgrat doesn't do witchcraft ever again. It's in the later books that she's essentially given it up. She doubles in potions and healing magic, but she doesn't really practice witchcraft. But then hey, neither does gratty weatherwax. That's the whole point, right. She does potions and healing, but it's stephaniely give a points out in Al Flam revisited countrary to granny weather wax. Right, mcgrat can only be strong when she does not think. It's sort of the opposite here. So the idea being that when she stops trying, she becomes I identify with that and I think it's also that where, once she gets into the warrior Queen Mode, like she's just running on instinct. She's not planning anything, she's just John wicking it through the castle where their crossbars. John Wick has come off like and in ordered an amount on these podcasts. I have to say it's all for me, but it's become a reference, but I go to one. Yeah, so she's sort of there sawing that she's falling more naturally into the role of the warrior quainting. I guess she doesn't have to her version of what she should be rather trying to comply with any of these conventions. She's herself when she's not trying to be someone else. Yet well, she's trying to be in se specifically it doesn't she think that she takes on the spirit through the arm or something, even the spirit doesn't exist. Yeah, so she's just like doing what she thinks she can do. It is great, although in discworld you got the idea that belief and something actualizes it makes it real. So like maybe there is something that mcgrat believes in it so much that you see actually like her spirit does come to work, as mcgrat is actualizing that spirit. That's not in the text, but it is implicit in the rules of discworld. M I was gonna be with that, then that I have a scholarship from Cambridge University. YEA, for we don't live on the back of a turtle. So we get there, okay. Yeah, we have to invent Narrativi and in her two thousand and ten Article Shakespeare Discworld, Christen noon also observes that mcgrat is only aided by granny and so far as she breaks the Elf Queen's Glamor, arguing that all granny and nanny can do is allow mcgret to see the machinations by which the Queen manipulates humans and allows her to act on her own. So she's saying there that nanny and granny break the Glamor. But then mcgrat is the one who does the act, who fights the off Queen. Yeah, okay, sorry, she's being an active player. It's also connection back to which is abroad, which ends with mcgratt throwing her wand into the swamp. Here she renounces the rest of her witchcraft by throwing her hat into the river. HMM. Yeah, so here it's sort of like M grats giving up being a witch, just thrown it away. But it was like it was the right thing to do at the end of which is abroad, was throw the one away. So here buy analogy. It's casting the witch's hat as like attempting thing that she doesn't need something there. I guess something else I didn't like about laws and ladies, more conceptually rather than specific sentences. I don't like the mcgrat is skeptical about superstition. Oh yeah, like she's the one who buys into that Shit, right. So when she say, Oh, they're just fairy stories, but she's the one with the wicker books and the dream catches and everything, it just you're right, that's poor characterization. Yeah, I feel like they should have gone with someone else being skeptical of it. I don't know. Yeah, you're right, although I guess that's granny weather wax saying that. Are you buy into all this new age stuff but you don't actually have reverence for the proper old stuff. But it also just annoyed me that, like anyone in discol world is skeptical of folklore things because it all it's all real in discworld. Yes, correct, yeah, he does revisit this in some of the other books,...

I can't remember which ones, where it's just like people being like all they're old stories. I'm like, you live in a world where stories are real, like that's the premise of your world. So I guess that is one weakness of the book that I will concede. Mcgrat also with doubles and things that we're talking about last episode with Lilith and Granny and and so mcgrat was a mirror of lily as well, and that they were both training to become mothers. Here again mcgrat is used as sort of the mirror for the antagonist and she's a mirror of diamander. I like Diamanda, yeah, but Diamanda is like she has all the occult jewelry and things and she dresses like a goth, which like, yeah, I like her and stuff, but it's showing that that mindset makes her subsceptible to the Elf Queen. Yep, and mcgrat is again the contrast there. I was wondering. Also, I feel like that needs to be a short story has been off where, you know, granny does take dimand or under her wing and uses her pier clear skill and interest and enthusiasm and channel into something else. For like, why just shrug them off because they're dumb young girl? You know, there is a short story from one thousand one hundred and ninety eight called the sea and little fishes. I was going to say it's so like what you're describing with it's sort of like the opposite of what you're describing, where granny weather wax tells them to go stick it. There's, yeah, in the tiffany aching books, there's let us Earwig, or let us our which as she likes to be called, who's sort of the mcgrat who's no one's ever pulled her up sort of thing, where she's become this old witch who's all about the the image and the wicked stuff and that the trinkets and all of that and she she becomes the rival who raises her own apprentice and a grammar who doesn't have a clue. And then this short story is about how they ask granny weather wax not to participate in the witch trials because she always wins, and then she she ends up wedding by not participating. Maybe we'll look at that when we get to the the tiffany aching books. But in the folklore of discworld Pratchett and Jacqueline Simpson state that mcgratt and diamand is more intellectual and ritualistic kind of magic, is more like wizardry, the kind which involves chalk circles and cones of power and candles and Tarot cards, which promises spectacular displays, which on earth is often called higher magic. So nothing new there. But this is Pratchett confirming our interpretation of the the witch wizard analogy, in that mcgrat is not doing which class properly because she's leaning into the wizard stuff too much. Is Their judgment. I guess. They say that such a girl has had an education. She probably wears a big floppy hat and Black Lace and lots of Occult Silver Jewelry. She Paints her fingernails black, she dufts a new flamboyant name, but again mcgrat is the one who does not change her name. Yeah, as we discussed in which is abroad, she's the only character with a singular name. So yeah, there there's some inconsistency there. And this also seems to go against Pratchett's whole thing about performance in the power of appearances, which is revisited in a hatful of sky and the shepherd's crown, where tiffany aching is pitted against the demandal like apprentice, which Anagramma Hawken, but is also empowered through the witch costume and paraphernalia that she gets from Boffo's joke stop shop. That becomes a big thing in those books as well. So again there's these mixed messages that it seems, yeah, like he's not complexifying, he's just hitting them in opposition. But then both are right. It depends more on WHO's doing it. The characters he likes doing it, that's okay. For the characters he doesn't like, not on. Yeah, Yep. But this idea of costumes and performances are not is another big thing in in Lords and ladies. So as Andrew Raymond, who wrote the thing about the dwarf fashion that we talked about in the unseen academicals episode, as he observes, people respect the premacy of costume and discworld, and he asks how can we say otherwise when it is made clear that on discworld fretting about one's performance is an absolute and unmistakable constant? This is from a chapter from philosophy and Terry Pratchett, Miss Legally titled Pratchett and the Masquerade, which makes you think it's going to be about masquerade, but it is not. But there's a lot more of this performance stuff going on in Lords and ladies. You have the bandit leader with the fake eyepatch telling them that you know, people respect you, to forms and my grant, who also read in a book somewhere that which crans has to dress sexy, which reminded me of my favorite chock from we're not my favorite Jogle, one of my favorite jokes from cabin in the woods when they're doing there the bedding pool on how they're all going to die, and this the white board with all the options and there's the two options as whitches or sexy witches. So I like that one regret is also preoccupied with costuming when it comes to being a queen, insisting that she must exercise no billinus obligate by wearing a proper queen outfit. I also like that they put it together like Ikea furniture like that. There's a few layers of funny there. I think there's, you know, there's a service life funny, but also the idea that you have to cultivate that facade, that you've got to put it together with the oblong that goes into the duty dad it. Yeah, yeah, it's revealing the artifice that goes into it. We see mcgrets inquisitiveness coming through. She wants to know the names of all the dress material. She's not just satisfied with having someone else give her address. She wants to know how to make it, she wants to know the material, she wants to know the constructions, the research, which thing that we're identifying with coming through. I just love mccranit. Yeah, there's also sewan og her, I thought played a way larger role in the witch novels but only really appears in this one. But yeah, he's code switching between all these different roles. And he has to run and get the other uniforms and things. It's funny. Yeah, he's good but, as...

Raymond observes, the implicit assertion is that these characters can only become what they are through their recognizable performances of what they are. That's a bad quote. They can only become what they are by performing what they are. I get it, but it ties in with the idea of Shakespeare in the theater, which will talk about more in the next part. But royman also cautions that while this is funny in an ironic way, it also gives Pratchett a free hand to keep on using the stereotypes of fantasy. That I guess there's like the dumb trolls in the other books and stuff we already talked about the all yeah, the ORCS and things that he subverts. The ORCS. We will see this when we get to the wizard books. But some of the portrayals of like the stock character he has throughout the first few books is the like exotic woman. Okay, I'm thinking specifically of Tracy and Pyramids, where it's like she's a con cubine who turns out to be the the Queen. But so she's there. The subversion is she's an intelligent concubine, which already that's troublesome, but she's still like so subverting it in that way the trope at least, but it's still playing our house sexy shoes. I did have an observation, joke, a line in this book that is said by granting weather wakes, but I when I read it, I thought this could equally have been said by Steve Jobs and I find that funny. She's talking about way, which is only where black and she says only because it's perspectable and service. It's got your will ties into her now librollas bullshit. And of course this also ties in with the ALF, the Alvin Glamor, which is an aspect of the elves we're going to talk about in this episode. So, as Norman Talbot observes in his one thousand nine hundred and onety six article, where else go to? What's that sales, apart from other magical creatures such as angels or devils, which actually elves. Might be little teaser for part two there. What sets I was apart from other magical creatures is their elven glamor. Noting the word is cognate with grammar and reminding his readers of their poetic elegance. This is something talking himself also plays with in his essay on fairy stories, which again we'll talk about next episode. That's become the we'll talk about this in, which is abroad. We'll talk about this in part two. Indeed, the already explains that Glamor is a corrupt form of grammar which was originally introduced into the literary language by so Walter Scott. The already's first definition of glamor is that it is a magic and chairman or spell, especially in a phrase used to class glamor over one. So these are tied in. This is the words, a power of words and all of that. Interestingly, the oldest example that the OAD gives of the use of glamor comes from the S and it's used to accuse whitches, rather than elves, of using Glamor, which Scott describes as a special attribute of the race of Gypsies. She's a great the second definition the OAD gives of Glamor is as a magical or fictitious beauty, or a delusive or alluring charm which doesn't take hold until the mid eighteen hundreds, and it's modern usage, meaning physical or Lua and Feminine Beauty, doesn't kick in for another hundred years, in the Mid Twentieth Century. So even though, yeah, it's pretty removed from its original definition, the definition of Glammor we have now, of Glitz and Glamor and all of that is a pretty recent development. There, or, as traditionally it's been, this more nefarious thing associated with which is an elves. Yeah, so the work was first popularized by Sir Walter Scott, our boy, who remarks in his letters on demonology and witchcraft very pleasures were showy but totally unsubstantial, their activity unceasing but fruitless and unavailing, and the condemnation appears to have consisted in the necessity of maintaining the appearance of constant industry or enjoyment, though their toil was fruitless and their pleasures shadowy and up substantial. And it's Gott also writes in his on thousand eight hundred and five pm the lay of the last minstrel, about a spell. But having much of glimmer mighte could make a lady seem a night. My note on this was it's very similar to Labal dump summer. See who's whether. What's that? Other keeps John Keats's poem of that name. The lady has a glamor or some kind. It's clear that something has drawn the night in, that she's she's put on some sort of facade. And Yeah, he's about to dine a hill side because he's had his life's blood sucked the way by which probably who might also be a vampire. Right, I hadn't know. It's somewhere, and maybe it's in the second part, that this is also Christo Bel Hmm. Yeah, Chris Belt, yea, the same again. Yeah, whatever I teach, one of these have to talk about the other one. Come to my club also here. Yeah, we got a glamor that could make a lady seem a night this is this is a reverse Magrat? MMM, or just just a plane MAG rate? Yeah, what kind of move is the reverse Maggrat? Well, I have a question about the bucket and stick dance, the stick and bucket dance. But what kind of move is that? I think it's exactly what you think. That's yeah, it's very intentional. You said Walter Scott might be our boy. Is Walter Scott Our boy? I thought you were not a Scott Fay. I had to read all Walter Scott's novels when I first had on my phd to see if he had any dark heroes, and the answers no. Yes, so he's not your boy. Well, I mean, I've been to his house and I've like nosed around and Shit, so I'm a pretty big fan of him. It's not my boy in terms of my writing. All right, I thought you resented Scott, but he is a frustrating figure but also very interesting, very interesting. Yeah, and invented the word Glamor. Yeah, and or didn't invent...

...the word climber, popularized in literature. But yes, as Jennifer climent points out in a two thousand and thirteen article, we're making Shakespeare and discworld, and I realize saying all these is very annoying and I wouldn't do what if I was writing things, but this is an audio medium so I have to give full credentials for everything. We are academic and her two thousand and thirteen article from making Shakespeare discuard, she says Shakespeare, who was around about two hundred years before Scott, does not use the term glamor in his work, although he's fairies are glamorous in their ability to cause models to see reality through a haze of enchantment. Do I have a point here? I think the point is the idea is around. They just don't have a word for it yet. Yeah, thanks, sir, thanks for clarifying that. You're welcome for you setting that up. No, no, no, it's just like I know there's something that yeah, is that enough to say that the idea is implicit, even if it's not helping later treats and things that could cast some sort as well, but make you think that they weren't what they were a couple of yeah, it's a hundred years, or more than about a hundred, fifty hundred, twenty five years before the odes definitions where they're giving the attributing glamor to witches and things. So yeah, this idea has been around in folklore at least, even if the terminology didn't come until later. Raymond also describes the Elf Quinn's face as a kind of mirror. Thoughts that you look into it and see yourself reflect I don't know, you see what you want to see. There is important, Spencer as well, in terms of fulfilling destiny and fate will come to that. We will not sure about that. When I get the idea that it's like distorting reality, but critics and postpondness. But critics aren't coming to learn as well. Also Overuse Mirror analogies. And Yeah, granny weather wax also compares the Elf Style beauty and grace to cats, saying that if cats looked like frogs we'd realize what nasty, cruel little bastards they are. It's true. So I have to ask, would you so? Would you still like goose if she was a frog? Yeah, exactly, flitteral slim up there. Yeah, I do like their warm and fairy. That does help, it really does. It's annoying when they're rubbing their face or polk and their eye with their claws in the morning, but it is they co precious little counts. I claim to be in you know, equal opportunity anti species its campaigner, but I do really like the warm, fuzzy ones, like mammals. They're good. I saw a picture of a lady hold in a wombat in the news today. AH, made my heart swell. Also makes me wonder why a frogs get such a bad rap. That's the frog prints, the last thing you would ever want to marry as a frog. Like, who's doing PR FOR FROGS? There's some stuff in this from an evolutionary perspective, because you know children, a lot of them will be like ill bugs, snakes, things that you know will hurt us in evolution shaps. But we've got to teach them not to run out into traffic. I think it could be similar with frogs. We it's built into us that we know that they might hurt us if we lick them or try to eat them. So we're like, oh, at least that's how I justify my hatred of snakes. Well, that and Satan. Yeah, but the to go hand in hand. It's because we don't think that it came after so another thing I thought we could talk about in Lords and ladies is borrowing, which I think is something you've had some thoughts about over the previous books. Just about. Yeah, the ethics of entering another character, another animals mind, without consent and taking over essentially it's will and then leaving it confused and befuddle. Something doesn't sit right there with me. It's imperialism, but with brains. Well, yeah, this has some historical precedent. So in the foclore of discrid protect it and Simpson reference a report from a one thousand nine hundred and two journal of folklore. The tells of girls who stayed with an old woman and her daughter and, upon waking in the night, found the mother's body deathly cold, the girl telling the woman, the woman's daughter, that she thought she was dead, to which the daughter responded her baton dead, Herbie out and about now. So that's maybe we're granny weather wax assign comes from the I ate and dead. Seems like it's a direct reference to this historical quotation. But although Approachett and Simpson don't provide a citation for this article, I was able to track it down and it's from an article called in pursuit of Norfolk's hides, sporans, norfolks highest sprites, by Daniel Allen, rabbit Raboozy, and it doesn't add anything more about the borrowing. But the following paragraph reads passing from which is to fairies. The belief is weaker. They have not been seen for many years, though they used to dance in the mark and we're like a little soldiers. So I wonder if this is a coincidence right, or if this is like the fact that the sign comes in and the idea about the fairy belief getting weaker, like it's a big coincidence that those ideas are next to each other in an article the Pratchett and Simpson's side. Now they write this later on. The foclo of discworld comes out in two thousand and eight, so that's like almost two decades after Lords and ladies, and I thought, well, maybe Pratchett had got this quoteoff Simpson, who's quoted it elsewhere as well and some of her other books. She's a folklorist, but he says he met her well doing research for carpet Jugglin, which comes out six years after lots and ladies. So probably not. Will definitely not. In fact, the article where he talks about meeting Simpson imaginary world's real stories from two thousand was published in the Journal of folklore itself. So maybe it was the other way around. Maybe is Pratchett writing the section of the folklore of discworld rather...

...than Simpson, like I normally just to shoot that's the second person who's written the whole thing and then Terry Pratchett comes along and puts his name on it, but maybe he was more involved in these sorts of things and maybe he found this while doing research about the waning of elves and found this thing about the borrowing and then told Simpson. This is all speculation and conjecture, but there's a lot. There's a lot of coincidences going on there. That's that's a conspiracy theory I can get behind. Yeah, anither way, it suggests that this is where he got Grannie sign and maybe even the whole idea of borrowing from, although it's, you know, through which calf more generally as well, in the folklore of disco, Ad Protch and Simpson also reference in one thousand nine hundred and thirty seven book by the Hampshire Federation of Women's institutes. That's a federation of institutes right there, very confusing, called it happened in Hampshire, which tells of a woman called granny from Bria Moore that could turn herself into a hair. Oh yeah, that sounds right. Well, this will come back him. We'll talk about that. The hair is a thing in I shall wear midnight, the best tiffany aching book. But yeah, there's a lot of the borrowing plays are really well, I guess, some more significant role in this book than maybe any of the others, or maybe not, comf for Juggulein actually, but here I really like that she borrows the bees. Yeah, and then she's gone around bragging going you've got to be good to deal with bees, because he ends up with your minds flying at all different directions, which is amusing, except that hive minds are a complete myth, and this has been known since at least onast nine hundred and twenty seven, when the German zoologists Carvon Frisch described the waggle dance through which honeybees communicant communicate, sort of like a dance, and before that they're doing. Obviously dancing ties into the themes of Lords and ladies as well, but this was a revolutionary discovery for which he was eventually awarded the Nobel Prize. So it's sort of like well publicized common knowledge. I guess that that hive minds are a thing, but it is definitely something that's persisted through fantasy, popular culture, fantasy, literous science fiction, literature, especially like stuff like all the military science fiction that ends with them fighting a hive mind of insect aliens, which is everyone just ripping off starship troopers. But yeah, this is a trope that is perpetuated in in fiction despite being thoroughly disproven. So so a bit of a similar Qu're going on there. Of course, these are discworld be's, not round world bees. So you know we're playing in the fantasy world. But I thought maybe he could have done more with the dancing, given that it ties into the Morris dancing and the dancing to some of the fairies and all of that, the dances that are the stones of dancing as the theme of this book, Why didn't he take the be dancing and run with it? Maybe you didn't know about it? Yeah, to I come on, he's smarter than that. From knows everything. Also, in his two thousand and ten book Honey Bee Democracy, Thomas Cilley also dispels the myth that honey bee colonies are governed by a benevolent dictator Queen, which he says traces back to Aristotle, who was wrong about everything, by the way. Yeah, but I checked and Aristotle only talks about king bees. Okay, I don't think aristol would be having with matriarchies anyway. But even then he says that they are only essential in his in so far as reproduction. So I don't know where that comes from these man but silly says a honey bee colonies queen is not the royal decider. Rather she's the Royal Ovipositor. And the idea of a be dictatorship is also popularized by Shakespeare, who writes in Henry The v Doth Heaven divide the state of man and diverse functions to which is fixed obedience. For so work the honey bees creatures that, by a rule in nature, teach the act of order to a peopled kingdom. I think this is deliberate. I think this is an extra theme that prajets taken the bee thing from Shakespeare as well. Cilly also uses this as an epigraph in his book, but he uses bees to argue for democratic communism rather than a matriarch or dictatorship, saying that there is no all knowing central planner supervising the thousands and thousands of worker bees in a colony. The work of a hive is instead governed collectively by the workers themselves, each one and alert individual, making tourism, inspection, looking for things to do and acting on our own to serve the community and achieve an enviable harmony of labor without supervision, I think, over democratic communism. Yeah, I don't know, I's he being a bit reading into the bees too much. Yeah, maybe they're not a hive mind, but also, yeah, maybe not socialist utopia either. Yeah, they're not that organized. Nevertheless, silly also confirms that the only Known Dominion Exercise by the Queen is the suppression of rearing additional Queens. She accomplishes this with a glandulous secretion called Queen Substance. The workers contacting her pick up on their antenna and distribute to all other corners on they hive. In this way, these workers spread the word that their mother queen is live and well. Hence there is no need to rear a new queen. So this is an equivalent of a human woman just mirroring glandul of stuff over things to say. Don't make more of me. Well, it's the equivalent of Magrat having to flush out the Elf Queen in the book. Okay, all right, all right, so you might have missed with the HIVE mind, but this idea of the the war and Queens, the war and Queens thing. Yeah, the glandular secretion. We could do without that. We like to Pretchett doesn't actually include Glandulal Tishre ACA. Just did I miss something? Let's go back to to things I liked a one thing I did...

...not. The glandular secretion seemed a bit gratuitous. Yeah, but also the elves of wasps, not bees, right, which wasps are known to invade the HIVE? So okay, is this if we're going down the be analogy road, if the bees are a socialist utopia where everyone's looking after each other and the community is working for themselves? Right, that's Lucker, that's what granny weather wax wants. And then you've got an invasion of wasps, who are who are dictators, because they talk about that, they use the feudal system as the example. Yeah, right, so do we have here? It's not only wasp vers bees, elves vers humans, it's dictatorship versus community. Right, yeah, yeah, okay, how about that? Now the bees stuff very, very broadly ties into one of the other things the book, which is sort of animal ethics and the Vegetarian stuff that I've been threatening to go off about for a few episodes now. Like here it is made very explicit. It's more broadly on the animal ethic side of things. As Gibb it observes, Pratchett's elves are very cruel, since they love hunting animals and torture and kill small animals like fish, bees and rabbits just for sport, you know, like humans do. Yeah, very cruel. Nevertheless, as Raymond asserts, the background hum of Pratchett is a nature that is ravenous and cruel. His constant technique is to present us with a sentimental aspect of the natural world, humble bees, kind old mother nature, a soppy old cat and deering mother otter with her cubs, before reminding us that the reseling on spectacles through which we observe the nine nature distort our vision spectacularly. The bees dismember one another in lords of ladies. The service that the kind of Mother Nature Reserves for small, lost baby birds is their slaughter, and the sooppy old cat would attempt to fight or wrote anything in which is abroad. The mother order and her cubs are matricides and infracides in unseen academicals. I don't remember the audits from unseen academicals, but these are all books we've covered, so that what we are left with is a nature that is blood red and promordial, where mother and children dying upon mother and children. But PRUTU is also intensely ethrop centric and mean. Lords and ladies, you have granny weather back saying that is the people who tell the land, I. Nature What it is, which is sort of going against this natural order thing where had the whole idea that luck her can't be anything unless there's people. Is Very it's the our words stuff, but it's a bit self aggrandizing in terms of people and things. So as much as he's saying nature's read in Truth and claw, but also the animals sort of had their own thing that they're doing. He's very much coming down on the side of people are in control of nature, as violent as it might be. I think there's a good quote about Red Kelly that he did a lot for rest bees, basic that that he did a lot for respecies. For one thing, he kept them rare. It's just as bad as the Alps in it. Yeah, exactly, as give it also points out, granny weather wax is rather friendly to non human animals, letting the Rubb on which is accidentally nested in the water kettle, stay there and has a special relationship with the bees in her gun. But it's mcgrat who is far more extreme in her animal sympathies. And this is where I'm going to do at my vegetarian thing to give us a quick recap of the seeds open planting. Throughout the previous episodes it's very seminal of me in equal rights. We had granting complaining that city people don't eat natural food, which isn't an explicitly vegetarian animal thing, but it as someone who's done a whole bunch of research into vegetarian stuff, this is a tied in thought mostly to meet eating that or protested food, Vegan substitute food is you should be eating natural food, which often includes hunting. Right there this idea of a grand sizing agrarian and how together in societies, in with sisters. We had the animal ghosts in the kitchen and mcgrant being winey about a vegetarianism, so again representing her and her vegetarianism as out of touch, even while sort of revealing the violence and the grossness of meat eating and which is a broad we had all the meat in January and Magarat described pigs as what pork is before it's pork, suggesting a meat centric cornist view off the world. Here are Lords and ladies. We have Mrs Scorby, the Castle Cook, who specializes in artery clogging dishes so full of such a as fats that they oozed down in great wobbly globules, and who can't get the hang of vegetarianism. Here we are getting the pushback of project representing meat eating as unhealthy. I guess right. It's artery clogging, that sort of thing, which Protchett and unhealthy cooks, is another tropey employers often or unhealthy and and rotund cooks. But yeah, the the cooking lords of ladies considers vegetables only as things to soak up spare gravy and doesn't think things are herbs unless you can stuff them up a chicken's bomb. So very, very meat centric corn has view of the world. There and there's all common rts in the scene, which is, ironically, the one part of the book that I don't like. We're margrets demanding vegetable meals from the cook and she says it can't be done. The elves turn the whole kitchen upside down and it's going to take me days to get it straight. Anyway, everyone knows where vestas bad for you, and I'm not going to be ordered around in my own kitchen by some chit of a girl. And, empowered by Yuincy's winged helmet, Margaret demands that the cook go ahead and bake her keysh does, and this is...

...right at the end of the book. So this is the culmination of my grats journey. Not only is she asserting herself as over the cook, being like will make me a vegetarian meal, not a meat mail. This is her assortic her authority. God know, I am the Queen and I am in charge of you, because all throughout the book she's been that. The Cook's been calling the shots. Mcgrats go while ire in the castle. Yes, the the cycle of mcgrat's empowerment concludes with her assertion of Vegetarianism, with even gratty weatherwax conceding that this vegetarian option stuff made for a pretty good dinner. So this is yeah, mcgrat getting one over. Her victory is a vegetarian victory. Yeah, waist, I'm reading it as that. Conversely, the Cook's Corst enthusiasm is portrayed is unhealthy. She has three whiskery Chins which will so menacingly it was like vitamins. That mcgrant made an excuse to back out of the kitchen, which, yeah, again ties into Pratchett's Phatophobia, which is something that keeps coming back throughout all his books. So there's that also, so that that's mcgrant. Mcgrat is the vegetarian hero, Warrior Queen. Her enemy, her mirror had double, is the queen of the elves, who treats humans like connest humans treat other animals. It's already talked about how Ridculi and other people, you know, people, also treat animals, other animals as sport and had them fun. But you also have this theme of hunting running throughout, Lords and ladies right, you have the Unicorn who shows up and kills the Hunter William Scrope, who is hunting and endangered deer out of season, as grenny weather as point out, the Unicorn kills scrope rather than murders him, since only our superior races com murder. That's one of the things that sets us apart from the animals. One only as original assertion that scrope was murder reveals, however, is that lit this logic also works in the opposite direction. For her, murder is not by not defined by who is doing the murdering, but by WHO has been murdered. So humans can be murdered while supposedly lower animals can only be killed. This is what dered a calls a noncriminal putting to death, if you want to get weird and continentally technical about it. Or, in the words of Donna Harroway, who I don't like very much, this is what makes some animals killable and others considered nonkillable, which is how the elves treat humans. Right this is war of the world's, which is the Martians come to earth and treat people the way people treat other animals. Is The elves come to lacer and treat the humans and Luker the way the humans in lucker a treat the other animals. So the ELVES, they wouldn't consider killing humans murder since to them they're killable. And this idea is explored even further in the watch book feed of Clay. Just all about vegetarianism. And golumns. Looking forward to that one when we get to it in three and a half years. But, Lords and ladies, in version of species is hierarchies is represented by the opening scene, I've heard the hunted, yeah, who is an inversion of the folklore figure her and the hunter who haunts English hillside's harassing cattle at who apparently first appears in Shakespeare's play the Mary wides, the Mary wives of Windsor. Have you read this one? No, no, it's doesn't have a good reputation, but it keeps coming up with regards to fairies and things. I might have to read it before next episode. But, Alice, would you like to read the description of her and the hunter from the Mary Wives of Windsor please? There is an old tale goes that her and the hunter sometime, to keep it here in Windsor Forest, doth all the winter time, at still midnight, walk around about an oak with great rugged horns, and there he blosts the tree and takes the cattle and makes milch kine your blood and shakes a chain in the most hideous and dreadful manner. You have heard of such a spirit. And while you know the superstitious idol headed eld received and did deliver to her age the tale of her and the hunt of for a truth. So yes, this is the the description of the hunting spirit, the rooms, the English kind of who side. And Yeah, this is getting inverted in her and the hunted who has been chased, at the start of Lords and ladies. But this is all to say, my reading of the vegetarian assertion of mcgrat is set up at the start of the book. Right. I'm always telling my students, like when you read a book, a very close attention to the start of the book, which is tell you what it's going to be about and then never end to tell you what it's done. So here, if we're looking at that, for Lords and ladies, as saying, this is a book about animals being hunted and humans being treated by animals. In the end of the book there's a vegetarian telling him be either to go and stick it. This is very deliberate on Pratchett's part. But also, and the hunter has great ragged horns, like the Elf king, who will talk about more and a bit and the return intervention of the Elf king at the end of Lords and ladies can be seen as a restoration of an allegedly natural cast order. Things are out of whack as the hunters are being hunted, humans are being hunted. The God of hunting shows up and sets everything back to normal, where humans become the hunters again. So that's, you know, an undoing of mcgrats vegetarian thing, because the natural orders is the humans hunting. You also get another inversion of vampires treating people like cattle and carpet joculum and a bunch of other vegetarian stuff in the other series. But other wise this vegetarian theme is completely dropped in the witches and Tiffany aking novels, where which mcgrats centially disappears from until the final book, and the final book in the whole discworld series, the shepherd's crown, which is about a Vegeta of Char and boy traveling to lunker. It's a learned to be a witch, where he befriends the queen of the elves...

...and takes over granny weather waxes cottage. Holy Shit. Yeah, right, so that's not just these three books, it's the entire witches series. Is a sort of vegetarian not not a treatise. But yeah, there's the culmination of it, is the replacement of granny weather wax by a male vegetarian, which cool, which also mirrors the female wizard in yess which book? Yeah, so that's cool. So there hasn't been anything written about vegetarianism in laws and ladies and I'm hoping to do it myself. Yeah, you are, but we lie. There have been a bunch of articles written about the luck of landmarks in Lords and ladies and all the other witches novels, which also get a whole section in the folklore of discworld as well. And one of these articles imaginary places, real monuments from a two thousand two collection on the archeology and science fiction. The Sussex County archeologist Martin Brown, points out that the luck along man is a combination of two English hill figures, the certain giant that, which is the one with the penis. You've seen that, and the Williamton Longman, which is the man holding the two sticks, or maybe opening a door in your Gayman's mids on our stream, which will do a bonus episode about and you can hear it if you give us money on patron gas money, give it to us. But apparently there are two small borrows and one long one above the word to long man, although I can't find any good pictures of these. I'm not sure how felic they are, but there is this combination of a long Barrow and and and two smaller ones. Nevertheless, Brown says that when he asked Pratchett if he knew about these barrows, he said he knew of the hill figures but that the rest was his own invention. So I also found a really interesting article from the Sunday Times in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven cold carry trips and Pratchett's Pagan Circle, which tells of how Pratchett helped a group of pagans purchase and preserve a quote prehistoric sown circle in Oxodshire associated with druidic rituals and witchcraft. According to local folk, or this circle, the roll right stones in shipping nor represent a band of warriors and their king who were petrified by a witch. Although their preservation efforts were supported by the Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carry, they were opposed by the local Reverend Stephen Weston, who warned that they had a history of witchcraft in this area, saying that he had seen the forces of evil at work and they could consume people and destroy lives, which this reminds me. Actually, when I was in like first or second year of my Undergrad I did a journalism you know, I did a journalism minor, and one of the things, I think our first assignment was we had to go to a local council meeting and just find something to report about, right, so see what's discussed in then go and write a story. And nothing interesting was discussed at the local council meeting, as you might expect. But what I was surprised by and what I end up running about, is that the local council meetings open with a prayer. Yeah, right, which I was like, Huh, was not expecting that. Also, like separation of church and states, like Oh it, secularism and all that. I was like, what's what's all this about? So I went into a knock up, brought in by by something, and I ended up interviewing two of the counselors, the oldest counselor on the on the panel, on the youngest council on the panel, and the old guy was I went into his house and I interviewed him and he I think he actually may work as like a chaplain or something at a church, but he was really cool and he spoke to me about it. We had a really interesting discussion where it was like yeah, I don't see his in position. And it was actually brought to us and people voted it in. That's just been part of it and and all this and he had a really interesting discussion with me. The other guy called me on the phone and went off about how if we don't have prayer and council meetings or he's like, what do you want us to worship Satan to or do? What are you are do we just do witchcraft in the thing? Is that what you want? And started ranting about witches and Satan and everything, while I'm just sitting there writing notes. Now I can't find this is from years ago, so I don't have a copy of this interview or quotes or anything, but it was just I a socially got this guy to just like a local council member, to rant about the imposing threat of satanism and witchcraft to the Cardiania Shaw councel. They're out there on there, yeah, and they're making laws and they're making laws. Well, I'm our prime minister as a pentecostal Christian. Yes, yes, but, as the articles authors point out, the stones previous owner had looked after them for twenty seven years without undue harm from any of the forces of evil, so it seemed like a safe bet. Also, Youre can we could get a rumor going that like Tho's witches in my local area? Like, how do we do that? I want that to happen. We run around in the nude. Okay, both Josh and I've had the conversation about whether or not you are the naked neighbor or you know one, and we bought off. So maybe we can make that happen. Get Caldron go the part project. For his part, said he had no objection to the ritualistic use of the stones, saying they were far more than museum pieces to be seen only by tourists, although he'd personally draw the line at human sacrifice. Well, that's good to know where it draws allne hmm there if it's eventually led to the formation of the roll right trust, which took ownership of the stones in two thousand and one, after which it charged Pagan groups a small fee to conduct rituals there, including an annual performance of midsummer nights dream accompanied by a Morris Dance. Now there's a surprise right, which is something we'll talk more about when we...

...get to reap a man actually which has a whole Morris dance a thing. So yes, the roll right stones are meant to be a king and his army who attended into stone by a witch, and the last records of Oxfordshire fairies claim that they were seeing it going down a hole under the kingstone at the roll right stones. So that's where the fairies are meant to be hiding, and Pratchett owns them. When I was little I was obsessed with fairies, not like little girls are. I was like put that creatures in their living somewhere. We have to find the mint. If I look under the right rock I'll be able to communicate with them, and I wanted to go to the land for the fairies where and I wanted them to take me through, and my mom interpreted this is that I needed like a fairy birthday party and I came out the morning it was like a pink fairy wings and I don't know, I think at the time I liked it, but I look like on I was like, okayt was she tried, you know, but I was obsessed with finding the fairy Queendom. Yeah, that's that a young yeah, so next episode we're going to spend a lot of time discussing the fairy Queen, who is the main focusing lords and ladies, but I do want to talk briefly about the fairy king, who is on the cover after all, of Lords and ladies. Okay, so I would like to admit that up until earlier on this podcast I didn't know who the dude was. They went to for happen, like is this Lucifer is? I said, I don't know. Figure out the PODCAST. So I did think I don't like. Maybe I like it's a King version. So I feel better now. Yeah, yeah, he's the he's the king of the fairies, and the association with Satan is not unwarranted because again, he's the Horn God. It is at the point where I just see Satan everywhere. So sometimes after I can guess myself. I'm like no, no, no, that's there, that's there, at least in the maybe not in protect so much, but definitely the folklore, English folk are that he's pulling from. But the king of the elves lives underground, inside the mound, which, along with British folklore about spirits living underground and caves, is perhaps a reference to Danish traditions where elves were synonymous with trolls who, in those Tusians, are small creatures who live inside hills rather than the mountain trolls of Phoenisian Norwegian folklore. So, as Pratchett and Simpson note, in the folklore of discworld, many European traditions tell of an ancient king who lies deep inside a mountain who will awaken the hour he's country's greatest knee. Is this remind you of anyone? Alice Awa? Yeah, that's awful. Okay, yes, sir, he's author who apparently has Alvin Heritage. So yes, the Elf king in laws and ladies, is Arthur, or you know, is the Hyah? Well, no, he he, I'm not saying he is Arthur, but like that is he's fulfilling that function of Arthur, coming and saving the kingdom in its time of need. But then in the Arthur a tradition, author is empowered by his Elvin Associations. Okay. As for his appearance in the folklore of discworld, pretend Simpson described the king as a half human, half beast Shaman who has an identical twin brother and the dancing goat like born sorcerer rock art figure painted on the walls of the Troy Ferez, the three brothers cave in southern France, and I have a picture there, but you can't see it. It's a little goat man. Second and they also acknowledged the king has a heritage in horned figure such as the Greek Pan, the Celtic ant led God suranus and the Medieval idea that the devil has bulls horns it. Yeah, yeah, although they claim that is less than a hundred years since this image is since this image began to coalesce in the imaginations of English witches and Pagans. See, I think this is a relatively new association through like the Twenty Century Pagan ritual, which is guardener, just pulling from a lot of traditions and sticking him together and going this is always been richcraft. I never spoke to any witches, but I'm pretty sure this is it. Do Do you have anything about the history of the portrayal of the Satan as a Horn God. Horn, Horn God. Specifically know because I focus more onlike Melton seign yeah, up until MELTAIN's representation of Satan, the devil was exclusively represented as an awful, monstrous figure and in all forms of art, and that came from, obviously, Christianity and Catholicism and Etcetera, and many of all are really capitalized on it. But after Milton, where he actively humanizes Satan's character, you get all of these new age representations of Satan as as heroic. So that, but don't know about the Horn God. MMM give. It also argues that the king represents summer and contrast to the Queen's winter. Yeah, which is consistent with a lot of English folklore and explains why he needs to come along and get rid of her. However, this idea is better developed in the Tiffany aking novels and isn't really, or at least clearly developed at all the lords of ladies. I don't think so I'll leave that for further discussion for when we get to those books. It's also for Sephanie and hadies. You know this story. Yeah, I played Hadis a lot. That's pretty showed me how to play hating, because it's through the the abduction of persephone that we get the division of the season's so and again she's down in the underworld with Hades and which he comes up we have summer. So yeah, and this is explicitly played out in Winter Smith the tiffany aching book, because it's also it's sort of related to mids of I stream because Titanio and Ober on, persephone and Hades. There's like this is a character trope. I also noted that the king has a voice like chocolate, which is meant to be like sort of, I guess it's masculine and alluring.

Here at that that's the same signifier that's used to distinguish peppe as male in unseen academicals, that he has a chocolate dy like voice. I think you commented that at the Chocolateness was sort of a female thing on that on that episode, but here it's being, I guess it's associated with like a deep, sensual masculine voice. Yes, and Sual. All right, that means it's time to close things out with masquorld squirrel stuff. That doesn't fit. Yeah, all right, that's why I'm singing it now, trying to give us some worries. Who? Yes, I mentioned that the king of the elves is on the cover, like the scene that he's painted there that's on the the mass produced paperback is Maniog and Castin under visiting the King of the elves, which, all right. One thing I don't like about this book. I don't like the artwork. Yeah, it's not a very good scene and it's it's not great and it's sort of weird and it took me ages to work out that that was meant to be the king of the elves and he's like nothing in the story. Yeah, because, I mean, something I like about discworld overall is that there are distinct covers for these books. Not so much now that we're getting American versions and other editions and things, but we have these Josh Kirby and Paul Kidbey covers for all of these books, and I was surprised to learn that there are two covers for Lords and ladies, with the artist Josh Kurby creating a whole new cover for the paperback edition after a bad time with requested revisions of the hardback version which discworld on the disciplines. Editor and Hibbitt Alton says in her analysis of discworld visual semantics. Is Understandable, since the hard cover illustration includes figures not transparently related to characters in the book, but I think that's crazy that the original cover all his characters are in the book. These are the rude mechanicals. Yeah, this is the queen, mm, of the fairies. Well, interesting representation. We'll talk about that when we get to the light. Fantastic. This is the king of the elves. HMM. This is Nanni Agu and Casanana, this is mcgrat with the Unicorn, and these are there's the librarian and these are the other fairies. So what of that isn't in the book? I think I've now changed it so my backgrounds on my computer or its cycle through the discworld covers, because I'm at that stage of my obsession. I think this could be my favorite one. I think this is really cool and definitely gives you more of an impression of what the book is of, especially given that it features mcgrat and the fairy Queen, who are the main characters of this book, whereas the other ones about nanny og and the fairy king who are the most minor characters in the book. So I don't know what that choice was about. Maybe they just told him to get rid of the titties and he was like fine, I just make at the king give her a shut God, let her be anyway. Whatever. Well, this is a thing. I mean spoil this with Josh Kirby, the artist. I likes ditties. He likes titties. Sure it's honest work. Someone's got to do. Yeah, well, he so. Pretchett has said, there's a quote somewhere that I was going to say for the light fantastic podcasts, that no matter what you say were however you describe a character, if you give it to him, they'll come back as a big titty lady. And this is the cover of sorcery, the cover of the light fantastic. Maybe it's the only type of titty he knows how to draw right. Well, the cover of the light fantastic had as the warrior woman with the thing, but in the book it is described she is the subversion of the fantasy warrior lady, that she doesn't wear stupid armor that exposes her midriff because it was be dangerous and she is fully clad from head to toe in black and brown leather, and then on the cover she's the big titty warrior lady in the armor, Bicknny, okay, and then on the first the first way of the color of magic, there's no big Tea lady. Except there is, because down the bottom, on the back cover, there's like a tiny little lady riding on the back of a frog who is topless. So this is just a thing. Okay, yeah, they never go out of style. To that no, TITTI's timeless. He's welcome to the stage, timeless titties. We also have a reference to an order of Wizards in Lords and ladies, which I guess settles the you know, what is the collective noun for wizards from is? Except that we were going on about WHO's that guy? That the rivers of London, dude no better ivanage. Yeah, that we were talking about how he has an argument of wizards. And there's this meme about the argument of wizards and I don't know where it's come from. Well, even wintersmith project says that the collective now for witches is an argument of witches. That sounds sexist, but I'll go with it. or well, I think it's more about about whiches, sir, but I know, like, does that come from Pratchett? And I'm really sure, but then that's pretty turned to talk about wizards rather than which is is also in the Celtic myths that we're talking about where some of the fairies come from. Tier Nan og is the name for the other world. Not I'm wondering if that's a connection to nanny OGG good by. I don't know what that means, but I was just like they're the same letters in the same water right. Also wanted to know what kind of sex move you think shooting the Unicorn is. Well, shoots are clearly involved, and I maybe you get your favorite shoe and so you're taking this very literally. He wouldn't shooting me a metaphor for...

...the action you're doing. Maybe you put it on the penis to warm it up when it's cold. It's just you the Unicorn, and then it can perform magic later. It's serious question. Shit, Ellis, it's serious. So I mean, yeah, clearly the Unicorn is the penis. Yeah, but I want to take rather than putting a shoe on it, like shooting would be the actor. What do you do when you sue, you you nail something to you, but that would just be any kind of sex mover. Come on, because you tap the bottom. I don't know, maybe your idea is better than mine. Sure, it's just a fancy way of saying cut the balls. That's good, gonna jobs shot with. It worked ever, about our people actually listening to this. But then when I got to making money and project spends half the book talking about a dog running around I'm with a vibrator in his mouth, I'm like Nah, we're good, cool, it's funny. We also have nanny OGG telling Cassananda that mcgret says a broomstick is one of them sexual metaphor things. I did. I noted that, yes. And then did you notice the footnote that says that this is a fallacy? Oh good, mine doesn't come up with a foot past. I knew I was missing out on something. Yeah, you gotta know. There's a little dirt that says it's a fallacy. s about Ph A. Well, that's why I'm here for the Dick Jokes, right. So I think that's my favorite joke in the book. If we do it that. The other one was I just like I realize this is a thing Pretchett does, but when pretritt describes people are swanking around, it was like the words swanking as a Naddy oggs waked over here, that you spaked over there, that you was just swake it around. So those are my favorite jokes. Did you have any that jumped out at you? Well, obviously because of, you know, the sports I play, the martial arts and marital arts. Mess up was was good. It was a good time but, you know, a cheap joke, but I like the cheap jokes. The other one I quite liked. Well, I already talked about assembling the dress like Ikea furniture when met. When Margaret tells nanny when the wedding's going to be, she says it's, you know, going to be midsummer night. Bad Choice. Short at start of the year. Like I'm you need more time to party, and I was like that's a really good take. I got a Shitty Unicorn before you are going. I think that's the implication. HMM. And and I also just enjoyed that wizards are not, by and large, breakfast people. Is You love a good hobbit joke. Cool, but do you have one final note about the neoliberalism thread in her two thousand and six chapter on the charity of witches in the Tiffany Achom novels Rebecca and see der Roserio. We talked about her work in the which is a broad episodes. She observes that in Lords and ladies, project considers the implications of duty. If you want to really upset at which do we are a favor for which she has no means of repaying the unfulfilled obligation will nag at her like a hang now, obligations and bargains are, for the witches, the stimulus of community service and, as I lean donaldton notes, rather than being monsters practice, which is there for helpful figures in this series. But implicit in that is the idea that kindness is transactional. It's like the witches aren't just doing it for someone else, if they feel like they owe someone. If someone does something for them, they implicitly feel like they owe someone. So that's implying that, yes, witchcraft is to treat kindness as a transactional practice, tuism. Yeah, HMM. And they say, I think this is from the Foklore of discworld, says that the witches. EPIC struggles on behalf of Lacra are recounted in Lords and ladies and CARPA Juggilm. Never in the field of interspecies conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. But do the people of Lun car appreciate this? Do they? Hell, they don't even notice, which is perhaps how it should be. So this is Pratchett and Simpson. But PRATCHETT may be pointing out that the granny weatherwax transactional view of kindness is maybe flawed. That is a character flaw rather than an ideal. Yeah, m perhaps perhaps all right. In terms of distinguishing these two parts, this is one we're going to do. Part two about the ELVES is. As we're working out what the show is and I work out how much research I want to do on everything, I realize we got two approaches now, looking in and looking out, which I think you're can apply to academium more broadly, and in this episode we are looking in at Pratchett from the outside. So we're taking all these theories and all these academic stuff and we're applying it to the Pratchett text to see what we can come up with. Their the other approach, which I actually find kind of more interesting, is looking from within Pratchett's work outside at the literature. So that's what we're go on. I do on episode two when we go through all the L stuff, is we're not going to actually talk about Lords and ladies or Pratchett's work that much itself, but we're using the ideas in Pratchett, the idea that Alves used to be one thing, that folklore Wayans and changes and how stories change people's perceptions, and taking that as a Lens, as all academic proposals would call it, to examine traditional views of fairies.

So while we're not talking about Pratchett, we're using PRATCHETT's ideas and applying them to outside literally. So that's what we're going to do in part two. See, yeah, that'll be next episode. See You. That give us money. Can I take a moment to plug my podcast? Yeah, yeah, do it. I do mention it in the outro to every episode. I'd say yeah, yeah, you've never listened to the PODCASTS. Maybe I've told you this. It makes me better a couple you should listen to the last episode and listen to how much better it sounds were on different microphones and there is protect the cat is at the doors. Is Might Bei's first appearance of Pratchett on the crash and podcast O Pratchett. I love how loud he is. Stirl Oud, wow, wow, wow, chatty baby. Now Plug, plug your podcast. Do it, because we do have someone roady in in amid the praise for Alice, asking asking her to how to find her or other podcasts, which I mentioned in the Outroch to the show. But in case there's some people that don't make it, do you want to give a Shpiel that I can edit in at the start? All Right, I'm just very disject it's just so cute. I also have another podcast which I do with my friend row and burrage, God, all them of the Devil's Party, and the purpose of that podcast is to examine the development of dark hero archetypes. Where did they come from and where did they go? Essentially, we are just wrapping up a series of episodes dedicated to paradise lost. The purpose originally what was to develop this discussion around these characters, but also to create a resource for sort of an undergraduate level university students, so they would have some sort of help from the wider world when they came to these text because of the universities have to rush through them really quickly and it gives them a lot more context and help with our analysis because they're quite difficult to read. So if you're interested in those kind of texts, that's what we're doing. We're about to embark on a gothic villain journey and we're going to look at a lot of firons works, we're going to look at some Gothic novels. It's going to be a great time and you can find us on all of the platforms at of the Devil's body and on instagram on the same tag, and you can emails at Bo the Devil's Party at gmailcome. Thank you. Yes, well, we might be able to do some kind of crossover thing or just plug that a bit more, because that is going to be relevant to masquerade, which ties into the fan of the opera dark heres and Gothic villains and things like that, which we'll talk about them. So if you're interested in hearing more about that, you can go with Alice's podcast, which there is a look to now in the episode descriptions. I've added when in there and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. They'll be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign up to our patreon page and get all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any burnus episodes or specials that we end up doing, if you're after more of us. Alice host her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with a fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing out takes. Yes, who's back on the cars mouth with lapping about? It sells and judge Gamer up to eleven. We're editing, heavily limiting compression. Drunk insots about down body like wow parts, research around talking. Now turn it up and the last pot up. All yea oral content for CASTRAMA and to Michelle. Listen or not? Another call as the pop pop pop pragitty Pragerdy prage, back at the telephone. Now, disc world, DIS DISC WORLD, DIS DIS discworld pod podcast, discworld pop podcast. This quantum stuff that he's doing in this book as well. This this is an idea that pratchure is broadly obsessed with. That keeps cropping up everywhere, but he seems particularly to have been obsessed with it at this time, in one nine hundred ninety two, because he puts out a book the same year. You know, one thousand nine hundred and ninety two. So he puts out the same year. He puts out the first book of his Johnny Maxwell Trilogy, which is a trilogy of books, Science Fiction Books for children, and then in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six, the third book in that series, Johnny in the bomb, is about different parallel quantum universes that these kids go back in time and then they're having to try and avert this bomb dropping by jumping into the parallel universes and things. Is just too tied in with my bullshit.

There's a reference to all through the series. There there's a reference to these kids watching Star Trek, which is of interest to me because I've just written an article about Star Trek that will be in the science fiction studies special issue on food features. Do out mid next year. Get on it. Yeah, there's references to them and there's a reference where they they talk about vegans and he says, which again is of interest to me with the vegetarian things they say. There's a reference to vegans and he says no, you mean Vulcans, which is the race in Star Trek, as I've just written an entire article about, the VULCANS are Vegan. So I think that's incidental, but it's an interesting coincidence to me. Of More Relevance to Lords and ladies is in Stephanie Gibbert's two thousand and seven thesis, Alfland revisited. She talks about how purchase elves, the incompatibility with iron, where it's because of the magnetic stuff. I like that as an explanation. But also they have green blood because they can't have iron based blood. So practice account for this by giving them copper based green blood. Although, as she points out, Star Trek originally made pointed eared green blooded creatures famous. which are the Vulcans, which a Vegan? Yeah, who are? Who are the elves like in the Star Trek fantasy science fiction? I think all of that is incidental, but it's a weird like mishmash of all these themes coming together. So yeah, have you got everything out you wanted to get out so far? You and if you said everything you want to say on the PODCAST, I think it was a jerk. Okay. Well, clearly who've wrote that as dumb as hell. So do you want to phrase that differently or why? Keeping that the PODCAST NOT KEEP it? Okay,.

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