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2 – Equal Rites

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Episode 2 of Unseen Academicals, discussing the first book in the Witches Series, Equal Rites (1986), and using it to explore definitions and history of magic, magical gender roles, education, the power of words, Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea series, female wizards, male witches, seventh sons of seventh sons, H. P. Lovecraft, parallel worlds and more!

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts  

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com 

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod  

It's DIS world. It's DIS world podcast analysis. Yeah, so I'm Josh, Hi'm Alice and where the unseen academicals, and today we are going to talk about the third discworld novel, equal rights, the first in the witches series. Equal rights follows the story of Squarina Smith, who is the seventh son of a seventh son and therefore possesses wizard magic, but is actually a daughter. So granny weather wax tries to train now as a witch, but when that doesn't work, she takes it to the unseen university in Ank more pork to be trained as the disc's first female wizard. And hilarious satire of traditional gender roles it's hues. Anything to add, but it's one of my favorites. Ellis, how did you feel about it overall? I thoroughly enjoyed rereading it. It was one that I actually had read, did have some recollections of, and it was a very fun particularly compared well, this other stuff I have to read. Yeah, a bit lighter than the things I've been reading as well, because it's one of the early ones. Like all fantasy series is, books get double and thickness as you go on. So yeah, I'm enjoying going back to some of these earlier ones, especially after unseen academicals, which is about twice the elect of this one. Yeah, where does it rate on your rating? Equal rights? All right, up there this is. This is in the s class stile. Okay, it's not my absolute favorite. That the two that are my favorite favorites, a thief of time and small Guids, but it's in like just below that. Probably in the collection of like four or five of these, are the a US Discui. Okay, what about yourself? Oh, God knows, I need to reread more of them before I'll update you. So this is better than, I'm saying academicals. Yeah, I was going to say that's half as long but twice as good. At least. Got Feeling. If you have to give it a letter grade, what's your letter? A great thing that you're doing s. So it s is a Japanese thing. Is Our video games and stuff. How S is above as is like your classic ultimate tr but then it's just a BCD. I want to leave myself some room. It's probably in the second tier down, I'm going to say. You're going to say be yeah, we'll see, we'll come back to you as we go. I'm now I'm going to steal a bit from one of the many rupole's drag race podcast that I listen to, which are going to be referenced constantly, because, again, it is the only media I have consumed outside of books and video games for the last five years. So it's all I've got. But I'm going to steal something off the roopoles drag race recap podcast, as they started all their episodes by asking to name two things you liked about the book and one thing you did not. All right, so I think the thing that I liked. We're going to get into a lot, so I won't I won't hammer it out too much now, but it all, it all worked best when they work together. It wasn't one over the other. The the conclusion or the denuman of the of the book is when they work together they achieve this kind of concilience which, as you know, you're time about Eskin Simon. Yeah, yeah, or granny and cut angle. Is that a name? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, you time, the systems of Magaret magic work together and that's where they really prosper. That's I was enjoying that, Serge baby also that comes on law. Had A lot of fun with those, like you can't change the law and don't like he constantly. And the one thing you did not like everyone filling in Simon Start, I really like pissed me off by the third time it happened. Yeah, I found it annoying as well, I guess. Yeah, it's just not really that funny. Maybe it's a time thing, like they thought it was funny then but it's not now. But it was also in unseen academicals. We had all that, the fat jokes and stuff. It's just kind of yeah, although I did I did like when she said you pronounced all those wobble use I thought that was funny. But yeah, also granny spelling, which I know was meant to be making fun of her, but I loved it. Like, from here henceforth, picture we known as drum and true. Yes, and that's a continual thing through this. There is with yeah, no one, no one is literal in discworld. So it's a bit of a cop out. But the two things I liked were esque and granny weather wax. I think there's two really good characters. It's a huge cop out. How they it's a massive cop out, but I particularly liked there. I mean, obviously the whole book is the dynamic between them, but I like that granny isn't just this she comes in and fixes everything and tells everyone what's right. I liked that she was conservative and pushed back against and re reinforced the the gender ideals or whatever ideals. What's the word? Expectations, conventions? Yeah, and then had to like sort of come around to it on on ourself and then go storming in. And it wasn't just that. She went okay, well, you're going to be a wizard and took s to more point, like Esq, of her own accord, and granny went and supported her. So I like the way they functioned in the story. It's not as straightforward as like that. What again, it plays on the mental thing, you know, and the heroes journey the idea, like meet the mentor and the mental teachers and takes you through. But she's actually character in and of herself's like the student has become the teacher. HMM. And the thing I disliked was the ending. Yeah, YOU'RE gonna have to elaborate on that. Yeah, well, I guess in my head I remembered. How this book ends is that esque sort of sacrifices herself in the dungeon dimensions to save Simon and then she's trapped in the...

...dungeon dimensions, whether wherever that came from. That's not what happens, but just the ending, like I was saying, the interaction between asking granny is really unconventional and pushes against these troops, which is what this whole books about. And then the ending is when they all lived happily ever after, like it literally does that like three paragraphs in the end. It guys Oh and esque went on and was the best wizard ever and granny weather weather wax became a lecturer in women's studies and I'm like wait, what she did? She did go back to Badass and has students sent out for every summer and she's talked about getting with the fix, the thatching. I liked that so despartus being one of the oldest discord books and and I think one of the best and I certainly think one of the most important. There's not a lot written about this book and in fact a lot of the places you would that it would have been written about, it hasn't been. Written about this sort of a strange critical neglect around equal rights, which is especially surprising given how much critical attention is being paid to the tiffany aching series, which is essentially just equal rights rewritten, rewritten as a wobble. You've gotten the way there. So where did you expect it to be that it wasn't? Well, in in all the gender specific studies offer it. There are a ton of articles about project and discworld that are specifically angled towards JENDER issues and education, gender and education in the WITCHARD's novels. So you think, Hey, that's what this books about, but they all just talk about Tiffany aking. There's a specific special issue of the online journal Gender Forum about Pratchett's work, and equal rights is not mentioned once in this entire issue. Now this is just some online journal, but that's a pretty big oversight, especially when the editorial they call weird sisters the first of Pratchett's wildly successful which novels? And that's I thought they could get away with that because there's only one which rights for anywhere, the wax, and then the other ones are the witches novels. But they specifically say which novels. So I can't even let them off the hook on a technicality. So we've got some equal rights are aisier going on there. It also includes an article analyzing the treatment of, quote, equal rights for women in projects later novel Monsters Regiment. There is one article that let's see coal rights in the Bibiography but doesn't actually mention it in the text of the article itself. Well, that's some sneaky scholarship. simily, there's no mention of equal rights in an article on the gendered characterization of Terry Pratchette, which is in the book critical approaches to Children's literature, which begins with a whole discussion of binary magic and the difference between which magic wizard magic doesn't come up there at all. That collection focuses on children's novels, so it's talking about the Tiffany aking and the younger reader books, but it still talks about the other discworld book. So if you were going to bring out binary magic, I would want to think you about ecal rights. There's some brief mentions of it elsewhere in the same collection. There's a chapter on non formal education in the discworld novels, but even there it's only mentioned as an example of a novel where UNCENTRAL, Unseen University is the Central Focus, along with unseen academicals. There's no actual analysis, just gets a general plot descriptions as the university is involved. In a couple of other articles that it is referred in, they only ever cite the descriptions of magic and and Grannie's appearance, like her physical appearance. These the two things that keep coming up. They never talked about esque and or gender or what actually happens in the book. It's always like just the premise. Yeah, there I also found a master's thesis about Jedded Magic in education and educational ideology in Discworld, which has a paragraph long epigraph from equal rights but then doesn't actually discuss the book. It's mentioned, yeah, three or four times, taking up two to three pages of an eighty page thesis on jedded magic and discworld. Is a neglected younger child. Okay, yeah, okay. So what's your theory about what being neglected? Um, I mean I think there's just the fantasy literature in general has been neglected. HMM. Weirdly, Projett seems understudied given his cultural prowess. But that's how I was going to say I was going to say that's how fantasy goes, but there's plenty of stuff written about Harry Potter and and Lord of the Rings and and even the pullman series that I can never think about. Yeah, and the Gwin and stuff, and prochets outsold all of them. But Harry Potter. So and we talked about this being a thing because it's parody. It's not proper fantasy. Is that that's the that's some people have suggested that and I don't again, it's so popular, like he's the until jk Rowling, he was the best selling British author of all time, I'm pretty sure. So, whether you think it's me few or not, this is what people are reading. Yeah, most of the scholarship it's all about the Tiffany aking series and it comes from studies of Children's literature. So I guess that's where studies of fantasy are accepted. But I mean I don't see how you can discuss the tiffany aching series without discussing equal rights. Really. There is one exception there, and you don't have this in your notes because I only found it last night in the two thousand and eleven biography Terry Pratchett the spirit of fantasy. Craig cabell calls equal rights the very best book in the discworld series and probably the most important book as far as giving breadth to the series is concerned. He then continues if the discworld series had concluded as a trilogy, I would venture that the first three books would still be incredibly important as genre challenging and building stories. The first page of equal rights alone wins an award for daring to tread where no man or woman had trodden before. Perhaps Pratchett should have ceased writing discworld after equal rights, because it would have then provoked more critique and would possibly have learnt more greatness to the...

...series. I don't know about that last part, but I do tend to agree that. Yeah, as I said, this is one of my favorite discworld books and I do think as far as shaping the actual series, it's incredibly important, a great so just to elaborate on the idea that this is sort of fundamental and shaping the way the series progress, like you're doing a reright now. So you've read the first three. So color of magic and and like fantastic, the very dude oriented. The very dude oriented and they're very like the silly. Yeah, and they don't pass the back belt test. Yeah, that's there's not a lot of women evolved. You say that. As you say they're quite silly. There's yeah, they're very silly, whereas this is a much more it's still funny, but it's a much more focus book. It's not just like the first two books are just scenes, they are set up for set pieces and jokes, whereas this is a story about a character, but the tourists in the first books like he's just a set up for a bunch of jokes about like stereotypes and things, whereas here esque is specifically being used to challenge stereotypes and social progression, which is where a lot of the later discworld books go the previous characters for sort of direct parodies, where she's a first fully fum character in and of herself and then brings parodies and ideas together. I'm yeah, it takes him like ten or so books to get it fully ironed out, but I think he abandons the sort of silly jocularity at the first two books pretty quickly and equal rights is actually the foundation for where we would go with the discworld series. Later on, but we're going to start by looking at the the gender roles, which I think is probably the main focus of the book. So we're in a two thousand and eighteen article, age and rage and Terry Pratchett's which is novels. M Isabel, Oh God, don't even try. How would feel like should be more offended if they tried than just leaving them. I'm gonna go with M Isabel, Captain Villa, and I'm very sorry if I said that wrong, and I skip the middle part because I didn't want to stuff it up. She says protests, which is are an interesting addition to the ranks of female heroes in action roles or doing men's jobs in contemporary bell narratives. They stand out because of the nature of their job, which mostly involves chores traditionally associated with women, such as tending to those in need of help, the sick and the infirm. Instead of reversing gender roles and turning women into honorary men, project subverts the existing parameters that define gender roles themselves and presents female jobs as tough, necessary and, above all, heroic, which is a respected because they are needed. They are the unofficial people who work around the edges and who can deal with the little bumps and inconveniences and little problems? Yeah, probably. Do I need that second part too? I well, no, keep it, because that that's granny where where the wax is whole things. She's just like after many useless that over there doing maths, when we have to save people like her. She's introduced at the beginning as a midwife. That's true, and that's sort of there's a lot of inconsistencies between rights and the later, which is novels. That will get into because that's sort of nanny OGG's role. When the later things, like she's the mother, wants that archetype becomes more defined. But yeah, you're right, she's introduced as a midwife, cunning woman, traditional cunning woman figure. Yeah, yeah, but I sort of have a problem with this rating because the whole point of it is that esque is doing a man's a man's job. That is the whole point of the book around. Well, so the thing that I think I have to add today is it like at the start you're like, when that doesn't work, when teaching her to be a which doesn't work. She does succeed in teaching her to do, whichy things like using the borrowing and stuff. We'll get back to that. And she knows all the herbs and she knows all the theory and she'd been putting into practice and stuff. But sque has these other powers that are innate because she's a seventh son or seven daughter of a seventh son, and she goes on and is able to do roles as traditionally associated with in I think the point is she is that she just does both. It's not hermaphroditic whatever, but she combines both of them and one being and overcomes that gender and version. I don't know. I don't know if she does. I don't. I think she abandons the witch magic like pretty quick smart. Obviously she does the borrowing later on in the university. So yeah, she's taking the lessons and applying them. But like the whole point is that the witch magic doesn't fit because it's the wrong kind of magic and she has to be a wizard. There's this essentialism there. See, I took it as she's learned all that and she'll use that where it's necessary and now she's going off to learn the rest of it. We're don't see the rest of the story you don't like. I could see it being really useful that she's off Cam some wizard adventure and she knows that this mushroom will do x, you know, and also this about geometry. But yeah, and she's yeah, she's definitely incorporating them, but I think she wants to learn wizard magic and and not which magic. I think that maintains. I think there's the constant frustration with granny weather act. She's gone, you've taught me all these things, but it's not real magic. It's not what I want to do. And I think it late in the later books, the which is obviously become much more prominent and powerful characters in their own right as they get developed, and the wizards continue to be like ridiculous parody. So projects clearly throwing its letting with the practical which magic over the stuffy academical stuff. But I think this book is telling us that esque is a wizard and and and, whether there's a bit of hybridity there or not, like the point of the book is of a woman doing man's job, filling the gender role that is that is traditionally ascribed to men. That is the point of the book. Okay, more we get to the magic. Okay, I think no fact that further. But yeah, I see point and I wonder if that's one of the re reasons that it's sort...

...of been overlooked a bit, is that it is like sort of just that basic flip, like of the gender reversal. It's not as complex as something like weird sisters or which is abroad, although I would say it is more effective. I mean, yes, there's more to it than that, but just yeah, as far as the premise goes, it's kind of black and white, to me at least. The other counter example that is this book isn't about ask it's about granny weather wax. So esque is the female and the male role, but granny weather wax is the woman outperforming the men and doing it our own way. Yeah, and having to do men's jobs because the men won't do their jobs. That right, no one will teach es, because actually does. Yeah, and this brings us to why is there a distinction between wizards and witches at all? At all? All right, what you're fine. Well, I did the the basic academic thing and went to the oeed straightaway. So the the Oxford English tinary defines wizard as a sage or a wise man. That's the first definition, but the second definition a man who is skilled in occult arts. In later use a man who practices witchcraft, the male counterpart of a witch. So it's not saying, yes, the male having the male counterpart of which, but a man who practices witchcraft. Very hard to go back to the start because it just goes and goes and goes, like as far as just the the word usage goes. Yeah, it's sort of as you go into the other definitions, the word derives from ideas such as a witch doctor. So again this is equating the two roles rather than separating them. And if you go to the oxyd English dictionary defines which as a man who practices witchcraft or magic. I'm magician, sorcerer or wizard. That's the first in that sense, like mender, which is two men were tried in the which trials? Yeah, and that's like an outdated definition, but that is the oldest original definition in the oed it says a man. So not even a woman. There's a specific male definition. Sorry, no, no, just reflecting on how women missed out on eithern that go on. He can't even me, which is we can even have our own diabolical to go on. Well, when women do get brought into it, it is as the the next the second definition, a female magician, so being defined in terms of the male whereas the original definition was a man who does witchcraft, the second one is a female version of the men that does the which that's essentially saying, which is a female wizard. And then and then a lady use, a woman who is supposed to have dealings with the devil or evil spirits, which we will get into. The other other interesting thing about the definitions was in a lot of the historical examples they give, there's a lot of examples of men whiches and he witches and things are. That's from the sixteen hundreds, those examples. So traditionally, when the word was being defined and brought into usage, was used to describe primarily men. So where do we get this divibe? So yeah, the bit that everyone likes to quote the granny weather wax says at the start of the books. So this isn't every article that actually mentions equal rights. She says, I mean there's no male whitches, only silly men. If men were which is they'd be wizards. It's all down to head Ology, how your mind works. Men's minds worked differently from our. See, female wizards aren't right either. It's the wrong kind of magic for women. Is Wizard Magic. It's all books and stars and geometry. She'd never grasp it. Whoever heard of a female wizard, which is is a different thing altogether? It's magic out of the ground, not out of the sky. And then never could get the hang of it. Yeah, this is greating, whether accessing. There are two kinds are as higher magic, there's low magic, earth magic, Sky Magic, and one is for men one is for women. This is the traditional fantasy divide that I think maybe not post ecal writes people, but fantasy readers about s would be familiar with. So, yeah, and with women it gets even more gendered. Like often, if they're high magic, they're evil, they're in Changss, there's a doctress, is the them a towels you often you don't get just a female sorcerer doing a thing like well, I think there's the patchet speech about get up and stuff that I'm going to talk about more later, but he says in there he goes well, yeah, there are sorceresses, but that's just a witch with good legs, exactly. There it's all about sexuality. Yeah, so you laughed at geometry, so I have to ask what does the theogy? Yeah, I did some googling. Yeah, so when Pete was teaching me all about history of magic and magic stuff for our discussions on Spencer, and he's taught me that there's a difference between goatism and theogy. And this happens a lot. People will tell me something and I can't fight it on Google and then years later it comes up in an obscure book on rhetoric. Well, you'd just jump in quickly before you go on with your thing. I also did some googling when you wrote theog twice in the in the know it sounds like, yeah, did you misspell theology Erge Goedicism? Apart from being a good tryptocon song, I know what that is, but theogy not the old all right, so you've got two types of magic, so to speak. They go to them in theogy and that just there's another net. But those are other names for the black and white magic distinction. Go to something black magic and theogy being white magic. But you do have to other sort of traditional types of magic. So there's high and low and whatever. But there's also the kind of magic which is just like pressing a button. You say the magic words and boom, the thing has happened. You say the magic words over the bread and suddenly it's the body of Christ to the wine...

...of Christ and over. That works the magic there. And then there's magic where you actually understand how it works. So you know, people look at the whole buildings that have been built and say all those aliens, but when you know what it is, then then the magic can be explained, which we talk about with granning, weather works as well. Yeah, so, so which is is gosism and and theogy is theogy is wizard stuff. But this this leads into the the prejudice as well, because my understanding of going, I'm going to say go to that. That's actually I think it's the other way around. The Wizards and will go toism because they do stuff and they don't really understand what how it's going. But this is what I say. It's blurred and I think for the which is what they have to know the theory to do the thing, whereas the wizards just like the drawing circles on the ground and none really knows why it's working. Interesting, yeah, I can, but it's water. Could I think it's I was trying to dicotomize them more binary, binarized. Draw a line the whole book and like it doesn't work if it's a boat. Well, I think that the traditional, the way male as a fantasy wants you to see it, is that which is following draw pinnacles on the ground and invoke demons, which is that's my that's my understanding of Goatism, or how I'm said, is that it's related to summoning demons and I think, when I was looking up the definitions trying to find theergy, that it says the word go atism comes from a book that is instructions for something. Demons. Well, they sor it's about when Peter said to me, I was like, Oh yeah, black magic, right, and then theody is white magic, and then we go from there. Basically, well, black magic would be which is white magic would be wizards in the wizards. Yeah, yeah, what equal rights is doing is complicating this. Yeah, which is what we want. It talks about the magic's found her, they say, and then later on, but it's not magic. Most magic isn't. So whether or not magic is a thing. And again it's complicated because you've got the borrowing in the we know there's magic, as we would call it magic on discol but there's also just like identifying mushrooms, and she calls it magic. And that's why I'm growing way. The ways is saying most magic isn't. I think that just practually has been very aware of all the superstition involved, because if you're going back to when this was a huge thing in sort of Europe and England the end of the medieval period and and really during the Elizabethan period, obviously there was no magic, but most magic was just all about superstition, like you go to the will, you throw a rock in and you get a good crop and things like that. Like most magic isn't. Most magic is just believing. So I thought Pratchett was doing and he was just complicating at an interesting way. And Great Granny, whether the ways, is aware the most magic isn't, but also has this understanding that there is some magic. That doesn't always know where to draw the line. And then she says things like all the magic's found her, that how that kind of thank religion. Decline of magic is all about the relationship between religion and magic, would you believe? But how as magic filters out, the superstition takes a lot, much longer to leave. Also, and that religion, for a lot of people who are uneducated, was entirely supposition. They just went to church every week and were told. But they were told and for them it was it was not much different to knowing that if you threw a stone in a well it would get you good crops, or if you left something out they wouldn't take your baby or whatever it was. So there is a very much emerge between religion and superstition, which is essentially whichcraft or ideas about magic. At then, as religion disappears, those ideas hang around for a much, much long run to you start to educate people. But the interesting thing in there reason I brought all of that up. It's a tradition of the wise men, which but in the myth of the Magas it talks like, it goes way back in the history of the magic and talks about Solomon and Moses and Pythagoras in particular. But there's a line that's perd asked me when I was reading it. I was just quite agressis you're like it's your original vegetarian guy as well. So thinking to me, yeah, it's like go hand in hand. But yeah, the because like when you think of Catholicism, it's, you know, you say the words over the bread of the body of quite price, like there's very little difference between that and and magic, so to speak. So they had to really drum up a difference in order to say one is evil and one is good. But in with the MEGAS IT talks about how Christ practice the same kind of magic because his predecessors, but because the devil demanded that he prove it on command, magic became linked to the devil. In magic the way we know it today is so with of the Magus makes the siegument that after Christ, magic in the way we know became evil and to the work of the devil. And then there was the good magic, was the Christ and the Christian and the Catholic magic. So again it's just another distinction between the magic and the history of magic. And now it's sort of developed for you. So actually, in the book philosophy and Terry Pratchett, which I just got today, actually and that there are two books this. The philosophy of Terry Pratchett, I think it's called, which is complete junk, and then there is philosophy and Terry Pratchett, which is really good and detailed, although it has a disastrous in index. But Yeah, in the book philosophy and Terry Pratchett, Thomas W MANAHEAN analyzes project's portrayal of which magic in terms of critical thinking, in a philosophical sense, and he criticizes the academicians of critical thinking as herpeless, he abstract that. He says that the grinning weather wax model is sort of a lie on this idea of common sense and what project called later calls white knowledge, which again complicates the field.

Tam Yep, we'll cover that later when it comes up in the other books. But it's sort of a privilege generalization, like everyone knows stuff, but it relies on real world, world experience. So that sort of ties into the access to education thing that we're about to talk about. But also there's the quote where when growny weatherwaxes asked to to find magic, you were talking about knowing mushrooms and things. I think the quote from the book is. She's showing her at the a hashing handles the bees. HMM, and she asked, you know, did I use magic to handle the bees? And it says will know. You just know a lot about bees. Yeah, it's like if you could build a big building, if you don't know how it's done, you just like, oh, yeah, it's magic, it's a Therem of the aliens did it. So granny weather wax says that. Well, that's one form of magic. And and escares. So magics just knowing things other people don't know. Because sort of what comes down to is the reason why the witches and the wizards are privileged or are magical above the other nonmagical characters in the discworld is that they know things through formalized education. And the case of the wizards, or you know now it's common sense life experience. In the case of the witches, they have access to education, whether whether that's university education or if it's, you know, having granny weatherwax, who knows everything, take you under a wing and show you around. They have these experiences that other people don't have. Yeah, you notice two very distinct styles of education. I think we're at the university there's sharing knowledge and reading books and these lessons. But as we've talked about, the wizard orders are often very ritualized, formal circles that have classrooms and lectures and their painting stuff on the ground and whatnot. But no one really seems to understand what they're doing. As I say, they don't understand what's I'm just talking about the if they call it that knowledge, they don't want to share it. Granny also coverts and knowledge, but she is more willing to share it. And as these trained through, what I saw was like a ruthless series of lessons and it's theory and practice. And Grannie's always going name six rBS that do x, which is Karai kidding it right, credit kidding, you know. But she recognizes the importance of passing that knowledge on, not just to make her a which I think, but to be a valuable educated member of the community. And you can't, I guess, back then, in that world, in these circumstances, is there a way of educating everyone? Disco Days, the old disco those, those were the days when the earth was really black. I noticed two, just think, modes of education, and Grannie's was better. I would argue right, but I think that the point I'm trying to make is that if we're looking at a divide for which is and wizards, the thing they have in common is they are formed. They are privilege forms of education and the thing that defines them is not the different kinds of magic that they do, because, you had said, it's blurred. Right, you could apply bod or goatisms to either side if you you know fudget a bit, whereas the it's the style of education, the kind of knowledge that's privilege. And you see this historically. We're going to talk more about the historical stuff later on, but your archetypal Alchemists, who are your archetypes of the wizards in fantasy, people like John d like Alister Crowley. We're royally endorsed scholars. There were doors by the crown, they had massive libraries and resources and things, whereas what we think of as the archetype of which were, you know, Paul, working class, mostly women who had to rely on working class traditions and if they stepped out of line, and they're fundamental wambers of the committee and the moment they the community felt they'd been left down in anyway. You will burn the stake, which is fun right. Sorry. Yeah, I think they the modes of education and obviously there were women in universities and there were men in the working class, but in terms of the archetypes, it's yeah, the access to the thing sort of determines what kind of magic you can do. By definition, M so, and I also think this is interesting and kind of ironic and that Pratchett left school early to become a jet and apprentice journalist and then dropped out of that when he's books took off. I think, actually I think eiggle writes was the book where he became a fulltime writer because he made enough money off the sales of it. So, yeah, he's going the witch route, I guess. Also, like he's lampooning of of higher class education is something that obviously, with the unseen university and the wizards and stuff, is something he constantly does throughout the books, and we talked about and unseen academicals, but it's not something he has actual like experience with. It's something that he sort of has contempt for from a working class perspective, I think, although I think he does have like five or six honorary degrees, so he got there in the end. He blended that. He knowed it. We counting them. He would be on this he wouldn't. Yeah, I'm with Pratchett. Yeah, I'm not. Interesting thing about the education stuff there as and here comes some more names. Gideon harborcorn, that's and for real now, Ryan Hart. They have a chapter called Magic, adolescence and education on Terry Pratchets discoiled in the two thousand and eleven book Supernatural Youth, the rise of the team hero in literature and Popular Culture, and they point out that esque doesn't actually get any lessons on wizardry. She doesn't receive a formal education. So really, but bothered me. She's just wondering around the castle cleaning stuff and trying to read. Someone helped this ball girl. I mean inherent in that is that she is picking up the lessons. Right, she's in the room, but like, she gets the honorary degree. Okay, and he does join the school after this, though, right that it says that. Yeah, then with within the book she becomes a wizard by,...

...yeah, proving herself or whatever. She gets the honorary degree for achievement rather than going through the process and taking the exams and things and she gets the thing that symbolizes her as a wizard as she gets the hat. It's not made much of in this book, but obviously that's the thing of the first two books of Rincewood has to have the hat, even though we can't do magic. So another thing, along with the education stuff, is there's an emphasis on stories and and language, you were saying. There's all the puns about the law and there's this think the audio book narrator said Cute Angles. I'm going to say Cute Angle. Yeah, cute angle there. Or is it like a pun on an acute angle? I don't know. I thought you would have figured it out. I didn't care enough. Sorry, I left that Labor to you. Yeah, well, he says even like a going the Jenda stuff. He says the reasons can be a female is it at the end of the book is because it hasn't been written down anywhere that she can't be right. Are Bud defense, but the idea if it's not in words it's not true. There's also the whole thing you know that books are full of words and they can change things and Simon's looking for the words that will change the world. Now this is the thing authors like to do. The written word is the most powerful thing, the most support. Going back to the puns on law, right, he's like, Oh, you can't change it all, you can't change the law, and then at the end, just very sort of selfishly, he goes will change the law, like the law is just words in both both uses of the word. But this is this is a theme with Pratchett in particular, the power of stories, of when we get to the science of discworld books, where he gets to go off on nonfiction rants, like real world project talking, not metaphors and analogies and books, he just goes off about, yeah, that words and stories the most important thing and that's what separates humans from the other animals, is that we are the storytelling ape. That's how he defines human. Now, this is this there's something to it and being able to see the world and arrange it. But that's one way of thinking that I fall into as an academic literary PhD. But yeah, it's a bit self aggrandizing coming from an author, and fantasy authors like to do this sort of thing. But yeah, they actual the magic system, or the the wizard magic system within discworld is centered around words. Right, there's sort of practicality. There's practical magic, which is abstract magic, wizards, and that's where you get language right. It's the abstracting the practical. This comes into granny weatherwax and X girliter it right. So they can't do wizard magic just because they don't have the words. So yeah, so there's I think there's a quote from the book where asks trying to do wizard magic and she says she knew exactly what she wanted to do at lay in front of her eyes. All she wanted, she told herself, was for there to be a slight change in the way the world was organized. That to me like Magic's this complex and abstack thought. But if you ask me, like what is magic, magic is changing the world with the power of your mind, right, but that's this wizard magic, that's this abstract wizard magic mind creates change in the world, whereas which magic would say, well, yes, but then you have to water and do the thing. Yeah, yeah, it's also interesting that I define a metaphor as a true dream, which I thought again was really interesting, playing into the idea of words shaping the world and the dream stuff that comes in with the dungeon dimensions and things later on. That's essentially magic. To finding magic as psychosomatic, right, someone who dreams in their sleep that something's happened and then there arm hurts because if they got their arm hurt in their dream, that's how magic works in most fantasy books. Yeah, so ask decides that, given this emphasis some words, that she decided she ought to learn to read. This reading business seemed to be the key to wizard magic, which is all about words. Wizard seemed to think that names were the same as things, that if you could change the name, you could change the thing. At least it seems something like that. So this is I don't want to go too much into this, but part of my animal study stuff is producer based on what Dreda would call Corno philogot centrism, which says that the key characteristics that privilege a subject within Western society, males are privileged, mediate as a privileged and people who can use language and read a privilege. Right at logocentrism. That's statistic thing. I think that's Demon's probably true. Yeah, so this is just aligning reading of words with men. But this is Earth See, right. It's also a little bit Patrick Rothfist, but you don't like that so well, my point is Patrick Rothros is Earth See. Yeah, yeah, because of he lifts the BAGIC system. Focus is all on the end the naming thing. Now, obviously, I mean I don't think actually like when invented names and words as magic. that. I mean she's obviously the popularizer of it within the sort of modern fancy tradition and definitely sort of elaborates in terms of the details of how the names magic system works. But read, reading through re call rights, it seemed to me like that. There are a lot of other things that jumped out to me as see things, particularly the scene with the gate when ask goes to get into the university. Yeah, whether wax makes fun about how they've got these these big gates, and I think there's a bit where she goes to bring the doorbell and there's no doorbell and it's a mystery how to solve the door and going to weather x has been in front of that. So that reminded me of do you remember in the first see book when ged goes to the college, there's like yeah, that's his true name. Continue. What do you cause? Sparro Hawk did continue sorry, so ged goes. There's the whole thing about he has to get through the door by revealing his true name rights. I thought that. Yeah, the comment about the doors was a explicit reference to Earth See. There's also the scene where US...

...gets trapped in the Eagle Sparrow Hawk does that when he takes off as the even flies away. But then I couldn't find anything in the secondary literature that mentioned Earth See at all. I could only ever find that a couple of online blogs saying are some of this seems like a see but you know, nothing specific except for the only review I could find from when the equal rights first came out, in one thousand nine hundred and eighty six, which was published in foundation. We can find my articles, you know. The only review I could find of equal rights from back when it came out as by David Langford, who is now one of the editors of the online science fiction and Cyclopedia, so sort of the big deal in science fiction and fantasy studies, and he noted in his review that. Well, first of all he didn't like the book very much. He found it less continuously and unremittingly funny as the first two discord novels, calling it a pleasant read which there is a Wobblie but successful course, between anarchic breakdown and taking its plot too seriously. He compared it to the previous discord novel, his novels, saying that equal rights had less overt parody and more of a conventional plot which was inspired by observation of fantasies, recurring magical sexism, which even a shull a Gwin subscribes to in her see trilogy, noting Esques over borrowing of the Hawk as a laguinnish little fable. So he's making parallels there. I don't know if he's picking up on what I'm getting at here. But when, when? When he's criticizing this for not being a parody and having it's taking its politary seriously, this book is a parody of earth cit and that was before I found Pratchett speech which she gave it Novercon in one thousand nine hundred and eighty five. The speech is called why Gandalf never married, where he explains that equal writes as a parody of earth. See. So I'm going to my local listening. Did get a response to an email from Josh this week. Now you know why? Because I'm high my own supply. Good now, because you're busy looking through this. Well, he's practically silly me. I was looking through all the the secondary literature trying to find someone who who pointed out this was life like art. See, and then, of course I went to Terry Pratchett's collection of his own stuff and he goes, yeah, it was making fun of art. See, he says, let's talk about wizards and whiches. There is a tendency to talk of them in one breath, as if they were simply different sexual labels for the same job, which the OED would support. It isn't true. In the fantasy world there is no such thing as a male which warlocks, I hear you cry, but I'm talking here about the generalcy. There certainly isn't such a thing as a female wizard. The fantasy world, in fact, is overdue for a visit from the equal opportunities people, because in the fantasy world magic done by women is usually of poor quality, third rate, negative stuff, while the wizards are usually cerebral, clever, powerful and wires. We've been sure about Paul. Quality is just done often for bad or less powerful or less impressive purposes. Yeah, that's true. They probably wouldn't have been so many witches if they were like shit at it. Well, all hex you, yeah, but you'll fuck it up. Good Point. But then he goes on to analyze Merlin as the archetypal wizard. So yeah, well, we'll talk about melon when we get to the wizard novels. But there's some interesting things that because melan is known as a hermit that lives in the woods, right, so, Yep, and hermits sort of the one as self. We sort of aligning himself with the which thing, he's more granny weather wax than q tangle. Later on the hermits become sort of associated with Catholcism because, you know, you go off into the woods and you beat yourself with the Birch stick three times a day, and so he does take on some interesting connotations later on. But yes, go honest. No, I'm not that familiar with melon and it's something we're definitely going to get into with the wizard book. Sir, leave it there for a bit, but I mean that's about all I had to say really, was just the idea of the woodsy air and earth associations. But then he points out that well, in one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, Malon was already being replaced as the archetype of wizard by Gandalf. Lot of the rings, who doesn't really use magic, or Predet says it's more suggestive and a parent so we don't really have a working knowledge of Gandalf's magic, which is obviously religious based, with Tolkien and everything. But I think getols definitely are of a com melon at this point is as you go to wizard. YEA, yeah, mentioned in the same breath stale, but people are more likely to think of Gandalf that get off is. Also he's a practical guy, like he's a warrior, right, he's the original jewel wheeler. That's why he's so damn cool, because he could do magic, but it will just hit you with these sword and instead. Did you like the Gandalf joke and equal right, which one are they? Yeah, the the gray. Yeah, it's just he does Pak washes those and dirty water. I love it. I do have a thing in the notes about that. Gat off is bad at laundry. Next, like that was it. He didn't sit on it anymore. Sorry, yeah, the reference to gaind of do you want to read it because I've been reading all the things and grandfriend the white is going to be grandfriend the grave if he doesn't take better care of his laundry. I tell you a girl, a white magician is just a black magician with a good housekeeper. Well, yeah, so on the surface it's it's the joke about how get off the gray becomes get off the white and and all that stuff in a lot of the rings. But it's possibly a reference to the story the White Knight by Eric Nicols. I think is from one thousand nine hundred and sixty two, though it might have been earlier, because I think that's a complete collection. I'm dating it to there. If you remember, the story is about a white right, he goes looking to kill a black nne. He goes in the forest looking to kill the Black Knight and then he's clothes get so dirty...

...from the forest that he becomes the Black Knight. So the why night arrived. Yeah, yeah, so the the idea of the the law be better take care of his laundry, because he becomes the white nap by going home and washing the clothes. So it's like a double reference to that as well. And this story when I was looking it up. There were a lot of references to it in my study guides and things, so it's obviously been taught somewhere and is well known. So I think it's I think it's a too far. He gets gone off and yeah, now I'm think it's like a black belt thing, like the old school. You got your white belt and then you train really hard it turns black in the end. That's what but anyway, God go Alis does my tie and she will kill you. Yeah, again, of his practical he's not really a scholar. So I guess mill and sort of play. Yeah, he's the other well there now I don't know if he's a replaced Gat off necessary, but Dumbledore should go to academic wizard now, and it's right and I think, I think it's still Merlin. I mean Dumbledore is Merlin, but yeah, he is. Does anyone know the story of Melin? Like I'm a fantasy and science fictions car. I don't know the story of Man. I was struggling to work out who the point is. It's so much. It's it's mostly oral history and cultural history. There's not doesn't really get written down. This is one of those similarcro things. Where ged Elfin and Dumbledore were reiterations and representations of Merland that have now replaced the thing, so that now things the imitations of Gandalf and dumbledore rather than Merlin. Yeah, nothing to say. They're just an observation. I mean we're of it. where. Twenty five years on since this, obviously there's some developments. Ninety five? Oh, no, thirty five years then. Oh, I came out in ninety five. Yeah, this has a nice born. This came out in one thousand nine hundred and eighty six. Yeah, for years before I was born. I think I'm born when small guards comes out. I think so. I should figure out what came out in ninety five. So I know. I did know this the other day because someone mentioned it. I think it's hog father. Maybe. Okay, all right, so I know my staff line is and my family's punch a level. Yeah, but yeah, so in this speech he talks about Gandolf, he talks about Malone, then he says the third archetypal wizard is get, the wizard of Earth Sea. Yeah, so he says. Certainly the island of work reminds me of nothing so much as a medieval European university or maybe a monastery. There doesn't seem to be many women around the university, although I suppose someone cleans the Laba trees, which, Oh yeah, there are indeed some female practitioners of magic around ear see. But if they are not actually evil, then they are either misguided or treated by get in the same way that a holly street obstetrician treats a local midwife, which again some implicit sexism for Pratchett. There he's got it bad, doesn't he? Yeah, and he says, can you imagine a girl trying to get a place at the University of work? Or I can put it another way, can you imagine a female Gandalf? And this is him, he says an introduction of this essay in the collection that, you know, I was getting the speech as I was coming up with the idea for equal right. So He's gone and written a book about a female Gandalf, which sort of adds to my argument that esque just fills the male role. But again looks about Gerny weatherwax. Oh yeah, that that does feel that. Yeah, yeah, if it's in line. So well, he hads he has a note, footnote to this. Now or not? Now because he's dead. But when he was re editing this spoiler, Real Terry Project Cart come to the phone right now. You want to say why? Because he's dead. It's very sad. We are really sad. He says that. Of course, if you've read the later at C novels you can their women in them. By one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, that was still to come, which, yes, this is interesting because equal rights coming about nineteen eighty six. So this is before there were women in ATSA novels. I did do a quick survey of yeah, female, female character magic uses in the Ar see books. So you have besides Hanu, the the Dragon Child herself, you have Acaran, who is a dire there like magical seemstresses, I guess actual seemstress is not discworld seemstresses. She's lost her magical powers and and it says in the father show that she was a woman of power, no mere witch or potion makeup, but a woman of art and skill using her craft for the making of the beautiful, a proud woman and honorable. So even though I mean obviously there's some sort of implied sexes in there, but even though she's not portrayed in the father show itself. This is a female wizard rather than a witch, right that passages making that very clear. You've got the Dragon Women in the short stories and you've got a bunch of witches who, again in the et see books, are more ear than there. They know the herbs and things and they raised the sheep and stuff like that, even though get gives up being a wizard to go be a sheephead. But interestingly, and this is might just be lagwim being a big old hippie, but all the witches have plant names, God, Ivy and rose, and I think there's three different characters called Moss, or maybe it's three to no, three different characters called Rose, who are all female witches. Dulu do dilu do utility, do Dili do you so? Just a quick addendum. After recording the episode I found a two thousand and fifteen article by Leane Sinclair in the Fantasy Journal Myth Law which she examines the genders of witches and the historical imagination of disc weld, and you see how that could be relevant. Weren't going to a lot of detail about this, but just this article does acknowledge the connection between equal rights and Pratchetts why Ganof never married speech, and also connects it to Earth See, which I hadn't found any...

...whales, although it only does so, you know, in a footnote that consistently misspells gaunt as not Gnot, which I only bring up because they saw my some being petty about that. But more importantly, the article reminded me that the whole point of the tales from Earth Sue short story collection is that the University of work I was originally founded by women who were written out of history by power hungry men. That's the revision she does there. The six and last book in the at s series is about the first woman being led into the university, which I think we've touched on a little bit, but just to emphasize that. Any thoughts about his revisions to see not this that that's interesting. I don't have much further than that. Sorry. Have you read those books? To the person, I'm just read the for the four main one I love. Tahuna Tehana is one of my favorite books ever and I think the sort of feminist revision there is pretty good. But there I don't know if I'm completely satisfied with the actually it was women. Like it smacks a little bit of the JK rolling all Hermione was black the whole time sort of thing. Well, yeah, Dumbledore was gay the whole time. Yeah, it's more than that because it does actually like build up this whole history of an explicitly acknowledge the world of see is being run by through a patriarchal history and actually goes into that. So it's not just like, i. e. There were women there single. So points to you another article published in with what which I should really be paying all attention to this time by medal and a rolls in two thousand and eight, which gives a detailed overview of the evolution of women in Earth See. So I won't go into that too much detail because people can go and read that article, which is pretty good. But the major points there that are may be worth pointing out is that in the first earth see novel there's the saying that things being weak or wicked as women's magic, which seems pretty weird coming from La Green, and that the first and I think only which encountered in the first novel tries to bind and corrupt dead before he's rescued and guided by the male wizard Ogier dead, saying that women's powers are the old powers of the earth and not for men to use. So it's a bit more intense than maybe we were we were giving it credit for just implicit. It's very explicit and they are see novels that there's this hierarchy between male and female magic. Going back to Pratchett, Sinclair also points out that during the magical jewel with cute angle, granny weather ware uses and defeats Cute Angle using high magic when they do the transforming. So she's at least as powerful as the arch chancellor and and can use wizard magic. Yeah, I like that. That is very cool. MMM, so that's something we overlooked. Interestingly, in his chapter figuring the which in the two thousand and seventeen collection you directions in children's Gothic, I David Part of points out that an example of a male which character is the witch king in Tolken's Lord of the Rings. Yeah, hit the malls go. So yeah, we actually have a male witch character in Tolkien's work as well. Is he very hitchi though no, but he is called a which. HMM, guess that counts. So that is my damdom that I will edit into the ehore episode where a appropriate. So yeah, that's that's sort of even within La Gwyn, who was criticized for her male characters around this time and then sort of goes on a feminist here shortly after. Write like jet is black, right, he's the fast good is black. Yeah, race isn't gender. Yeah, yeah, gets gets black. Now there was some criticism about about La Gwin and the lefthand of darkness and our saying stuff that, you know, she's this great feminist fantasy science fiction writer, but she does, right, a female pagetis yeah, at which point she turns around, goes okay and cress on an absolute feminist here for the rest of her career. Reading something about that back when I was in my Lagwin face that she just didn't she had thought. She was just like Oh, yeah, that hand be good to me, and she'd written the you know, the first person of color, and then, because that was groundbreaking, and she goes Oh yeah, well, she's. Also, she's not the first leg doing it, because there's Naomi Mitchison and stuff before, but she's the first like no thing. She addited the Lord of the Rings Because her book, Diriva, space woman is has a lot of stuff that ended up in lefthand of darkness. But yeah, I mean she's the first big famous female science fiction author. So it's like unsurprising that she had to stick to some conventions, right. She didn't get in there and, you know, kick her way through the Conventions and burst in and be like I'm the Gwyn here. She wrote good books within the Conventions that challenge things one at a time. And then once she was established, yeah, then she she writes four ways to forgiven us. She writes to Hanno, she writes, I mean the telling. She only writes women protagonist from then on, and I guess, deed, and that the scholars of rogue are your sort of academic wizards. If melon's a hermit and get off the warrior, then now they're the dumbledores. Is there? I mean there's the Dieta when Jones and the CRESTA manchy books. Just everyone that. What's a name ripped off? Yeah, more appius ripped off the win more appiers love the little with the circle of magic. Yeah, totally. Also, you had the same stress which in that that I just read about, she was the weaving which which Sandry is the cyclo magic cool. So project does acknowledge that modern witchcraft is of the Friends of the Earth at prayer kind and, if it has any roots at all, that they lie in the works of a formal civil servant and pioneer naturalists called Gerald Gardner, who was a man. He's sort of the founder of the modern wiccan stuff from the early nineteen hundreds. But project discounts this and says, well, this is just a mishmash of herbalism, he's undirected...

...occultism and the Lord of the Rings, which, yes, yes, pressure is correct. But he says, I'm not talking about the wheal war real world, I'm talking about the consensus fantasy universe. Right, this is how magic is treated within fantasy literature, which is just a beginning to be taken seriously around this time. And he names the Gwen is one of the architects of this consensus universe. Ayah, and something interesting I thought he said was to see the consensus fantasy universe in detail, you need only to look at the classical dungeons and dragons role playing games. They are mosaics of every fantasy story you have a read, and I thought that was interesting because we were talking about the auch stereotypes, a courtified in the dungeons and dragons manuals. So yeah, I guess the Dungeons and dragons is sort of the Bible of here are the story pass that's fun. And Dungeons dragons is in Crea in its original form is incredibly conservative. So that take us back to the similar practice. You know, dungeon dragons is the parody of the thing that it becomes the mosaic of the thing that have run rips off. And Yeah, yeah, it does sing. I'm learning. So yeah, project says this was written when equal rights and Esqu're taking shape, and shortly after that similar ideas about women seem to turn up in the Zeitgeist. So this is this is interesting because in a chapter about terror Crutchett and discworld in the two thousand and one book alternative worlds in fantasy fiction, one of the editors, Patrick Hunt, says that the battle between witches and wizards, magic and equal rights echoes the theme of the twins to Hana, except that Tohano came out in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four years after equal rights. So it is rather Lagwin, who echoed projects, feminist a version of traditional fantasy gender roles, than the other way around. So everything is the Gwinn nor everything is not like when everything is project, because project came first. Right. Sorry, am yeah, and this goes back to the idea of words shaping the world, right and self aggrandizing fantasy writer, because project says. I know a large number of people who think of themselves as witches, pagans or magicians, and the more realistic of them will admit but while they like to think that they are following our tradition laid down in the wellknown dawn of time, they really picked it all up from books and, yes, fantasy stories. I've come to believe the fantasy fiction in all its forms has no basis in any in anything in the real world. I believe that witches and wizards get their ideas from their reading matter or, before that, from folklore. Fiction invents reality. Agree, that's exactly what happened. Well, yeah, it was folklore, it was word of mouth. That was yeah, superstition. Really. Well, this is, and this is the the great line from the book, and I think we're given this line of the book because it's come up like five hands already. I'm granny weatherwax says, I don't think there's ever been a lady wizard before. I rather think it might be against the law. Ill Ie, this is it's against the fantasy tradition. Yeah, exactly. I think it's fun, though, that it's not also against the Olt a w you know it's not in that. I did a bit of digging and not that it's significant, but it I do think it is interesting. There are some historical precedents, but I don't think we can go as far to say the real world actually influence fiction. But pratchet it's not quite as original as he thinks, even even within his own world, as Penny Hill points out in her chapter on Unseen University in the guilty of literature collection, that the character Marchessa from whole is a female wizard of fifth level and she's a character in the color of magic. So there are already female wizards in discworld at this point. That's got me thinking about what is the oldest depiction of a witch, and I am proposing or obviously there were depictions beforehand, but the oldest recorded depiction we have left is is cercy in the Odyssey. Who is that? The daughter of Hilia, said, heckerty, and Heckatey, as you pointed out, is also in the theogony. Yeah, yeah, I think there may be some mention of a witch in the epig of guilder match, but I have to change. I mean my response to heget is heggt. He's not a witch. Not there her. HECKT. He's not a witch until Shakespeare. Right. No, she is back then and she's talked about in folklore and tradition as a witchy figure. And he could he yeah, she's got the devil tradition or other in the theogony, not a which is we would talk about her, but the tradition comes from. Well, in in the theogony she's like glorified. She is like glorious Heckorty who they pray to. So maybe something we can look at more for weird stay sorcery are what's fun about this. You know, I thought, and we'll talk about esque staff at a second, but secously turns men into peaks and as as a brother in Europeak, because I think that's some tiffany aching does is there's some peak stuff and also there's later the masquerade. There's the pig, which PAEDIDA. So yeah, you just connect go that for me, that these are it's cecy right. That's why, because I was asking myself and I'm like, while which is always turning people into peaks, it's also also sor the staff thing, which betwe can come back to in a second. But yeah, it's that. That's such tradition of powerful which is even the most powerful ones, is somehow linked with men and masculinity and they're always taking away masculinity and transforming them and they're a threat to men. Yeah, she's she's a temperaress, she's sexually charged, and that there is this blurring of gender and animal and human that's all tied up in this sort of older depiction of which is in the Odyssey. So yeah, I wanted to talk about this sort of historical president for female whitches and things, that there's essmates that twenty to forty percent of the victims in their sound which trials were men. So the idea that which is our no, it's also...

...in the European and the English which trials, like a huge chunk of them were men. Obviously that's the difference between the what practette calling. The consensus for fantasy universe and and actual history is that, as we've shown, men can be witches right definition, apparently. But yes, I found a historical precedent for a female wizard of sorts. So in her one thousand nine hundred and Ninety six book the witch in history, Diane Purkis tells of the Workshire which and Bonttenham, who's apparently sort of a pretty well known figure in witchcraft stuff. So if you're into witches you probably already know all of this. But she trained under Dr John Lamb, who is not the vect vegetarian Dr Lamb, that's Dr William Lamb. Dr John Lamb comes two hundred years before that and he served the George Philliers, the first Duke of Buckingham during the early seventeen century and who was accused of breaking an eleven year old girl and sixteen twenty seven was staring to death. Really equition model? Yeah, yeah, the I went Epstein as well when I was reading this. So the duke got up Stein mentioned. Yeah, executed later as well. So good. So, yeah, she was his apprentice and claimed that she'd learned much in his service by reading his books which helped to learn his art. Again we have the connection between the Britten word. The access to the materials sort of determines the type of figure you are. Broden know myself, was later frame for poisoning and was executed in six fifty three at age eighty. That's a good run, yes, especially for that time the century. And pocus claims that her witchcraft was framed as part of the horring operations and goes on a thing about this is very abstain. Well, yeah, I'm not sure it. Pokus was trying to claim that this was, you know, prejudice because she's a woman and it's witchcraft in therefore it has to be sexualized. But you know, she was probably an on it right. Yeah, but interesting. Lee Poker says the link between Burnham and lamb acted to authenticate burdenham's power, that she established herself not as a run of the mill country cunning woman but as a kind of female wizard, and this was much more a theatrical role than that of a village which or cunning woman, involving authority and appearance of learning, normally gendered male in the early modern period. So yeah, that I guess we have at least one historical precedent of a female wizard in the real world. So perhaps the most extensive scholarly investigation of witchcraft's history is by Ronald Hutton, and it's called the Pagan religions of the ancient British isles from one thousand nine hundred and ninety one. Well, he says that old fashioned prehistorians assumed that men must have dominated, partly because of the prejudices of their own society and partly because this is true of all the Agrarian Society is known to history and anthropology. He acknowledges that there's feminist challenge by a scholar man, Margaret Arenberg, who acknowledges that women are, or were the subservient gender and all societies which practice large scale animal husbandry and that if women had enjoyed a more equal status earlier, they would probably have lost it as animal agriculture spread across Europe during the mid Neolithic. Yeah, I mean I put this in here because of my interest with vegetarianism and stuff, that this gender divide, this gender prejudice, comes with the rise of animal farming and meetating in Western culture. So these ideas of education logocentric prejudice and gender prejudice and meet eating produce. They're all tied up, and so I thought that was interesting. But Hutton traces the pagan traditions back to the Neolithic New Stone Age. All the although he contested, there isn't one unified traditions like these are a whole bunch of things that then become reinvented with Gardner in the twentieth century. But he's tracing these traditions bassing what like early pagans were practicing, and he suggests that gender bending, on gender blending was an essential part of traditional witchcraft and wizardry. Well, that's what happens to hope boards. Or is that because everyone's secretly trance? Not Count It, don't even poke it. We're just going to leave that one there. What happens at homewoods? It's a school of which bock from which wizardry is pretty gloved like they're just said the same, all right, co educational and and this is supported by this idea of witchcraft being associated agenda Bending is supported by historical art and artifacts which suggest a lack of distinction with its depiction of non gender or multi gendered figures and thing. I mean I actually got one of the articles looked all this up, but my partner, Maddie, is doing an archeology PhD and this is something she's pointed out that. I mean she does Australian indigenous archeology, but even in that you've got a lot of the mythical figures by our categorization. She's gone through these massive spreadsheets and trying to sort them out and there's ones where it like you can't tell, like male female. That prominent figures. And this is actually supported within the the fantasy consensus universe because you earth see, the magic comes from dragons who seemed to be at least gender nonspecific, non binary. Yeah, the dragons, or at least callison, who's the you know, the the head Dragon, is variously referred to as male and female. Right, these great magical beings of pallow don't deal with binary gender, and that's something that was brought in when the dragons became humans, I guess. So in he's two thousand and thirteen book, Pagan Britain Hutton better observes that now the modern Western cultures itself starting to abandon rigid gender divisions. And polarities, to challenge its customary sharp distinction between animal and human and to admit to fluidity in the making and remaking of individual identity. It is beginning to perceive the same patterns in the creations of the Pelithic and he...

...cites the examinations of Iron Age imagery by Miranda old haw screene, is the one whose articles I got and looked at some of these pictures, who notes common themes, such as an interest in shape shifting between human and animals so that motifs offering him bind the two forms, and a particular significance according to the number three. So that, yeah, so that some kinds of object bearing and character often appear in triple form. Here we're gone back to sercy right again. We have the transformation between human and animal and gender and all of that. It's all, it's all suit it al thought it was interesting just looking for examples in literature. There's Percy shows, which of atlas, who creates a Hermaphrodite. Interestingly, though, the the witch of Atlas is the daughter of pleadies, who's one of the seven daughters of Atlas. So if the witch of atlas was the seventh daughter of leads. She would be the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter, and would that make her which was it? Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure this comes but yeah, Hutton says that there is no unified witchcraft tradition. He goes into great detail about this in his one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine book triumph of the Moon, which I read way too much of, but I'm glad I did, cause in the conclusion to this, this history of the attitudes towards hitchcraft and things, I'm he credits nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety eight as a particularly important period in the change of the popular perception of witchcraft, and he lists the golf frock and the pretend to the song hint to her, which I was like what, I don't know, that's fun. I always in a bit of it here, but you be like, I don't know what that is in here. That's that song. It's one of those done ons in and this is your daughter when the moon comes round, my mother, when everything's gone something as long. Keep that to me from the hand closed door. He also says the episode of a US Sitcom called Sybil, called Virgin Mother and curing, which I don't know what all that's about. I would have thought like buffy or charmed. Yeah, body, we might have been more influential. Like willow. She's a witch and the whole must bee. I wonder if that was sot of maybe he's right in this in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, so maybe willow didn't kick in until later. But most importantly these third example is the discworld series. Hey, hey, there we go. We'd lead the the book, he sort of points out, is hog father rather than need the witch novels. But he knows how project treats wicker and ritual magic as normal and acceptable part of human life and shows a deep knowledge of both, with some of his wise cracks about modern pagan witchcraft only able to be understood by insiders, despite project's denial of any direct knowledge of the traditions. Now I couldn't find any sauce for project saying he didn't know anything about witchcraft, and in the speech about Gand off he says he knows a number of people who think of themselves as witches, pagans or magicians. So seems to me like Patrick Project does know a lot about witchcraft, and that's why these books do a good job of representing it, I guess. All right, what have you got about the historical role of which is Nice suckments firm. Right. So the idea was men with good vitality, like powerful masculine men, had had good sperm and lots of it. And there you're a man, there are and they steal this but and that gives them power and takes away masculine power. And there's precedent at her accules and I'm pally and miles and Venus and a few others, but those are the big ones. And then there's a dudient tradition that kicks them later on called the Bible marks tradition, which is means powerful women. And there's another one which means vagina teeth, which I completely forgotten Bo the vagina dead trap. Yeah, that's it. Taught a Vagina Dad. That's it. The idea being that men feared powerful woman because it would degrade or detract from their masculinity in some way. And a lot of these powerful which figures, that's how they represented in so see is obviously one of the most famous. He gets funny that says he is defeated by Molly, which is a herb. So, you know, does these high magics the better by a form of low magic. The thinking about it that way, she has a rod and ESCAS of staff. Now this got me on my spenser train, because everything is Spencer. Actually, I was wondering whether pratchet had read him and if he didn't go to university, maybe not, and that makes me sad. I haven't found any record of it. I will kick my out, but I if I was a betting man, I'd say he's definitely read spendful, he's definitely read it. Okay, well, this let's for Lens Greatest Credence to what I was thinking. Right. So it books free as a fairy queen. You get bred a mark, who is a Badass...

...ass kicking woman, and you get some other Badass asskaking woman, but BRETTA MOT is the big one and Britta masks. Whole thing is she sort of is the first psychologically complex character and Spencer like she has a full psychological landscape and she over the course of that book. You know, it's traditionally female ideas and ways of thinking and methods with male ideas, methods, ways of thinking and she brings them together, and the whole point of the book is a balance between the two. Is is powerful, is the most powerful you can get. But Britta man has a spear. Right, it's a Dick. She carries a Dick around, she hits mental horses with it. It's fantastic. Just also constantly taking a the helmet and like putting her locks everywhere, and I was like a fainting from how beautiful she is. She defeats like Goblins and Demons. Bet a mouth the best. She's also, just, as an aside, the only character and the only main character in the fairy Queen's actually learns from all of her experiences. So the idea is eaquhollers a night and he learns a lesson, but the nights from the first book keep propping up in the last book and doing the same ship. Anyway, put them up. Learns. She has a spear. She is a union ideal. She combines all of the different souls and ways of thinking and she becomes an almost hermaphroditic figure. And this is what led me on the s kine of thought, because while we're here talking about Spencer, though, there is a spencer also complicates the divide between male and female magic and high and low magic, because there are examples of high and low magic performed by both genders and bad forms of both genders. So there's Duessa, who is a popish, Catholic superstitious figure and she has a Miter and a cup which is full of the filth of her fornications, whatever that may be. And there's a witch who creates a false flora mal basically turns it work. We got a sex dog and she creates a hyena which is a hermaphroditic figure. You've got a crazier who's a creepy and chantress who lives in the paraplets, but then you also have blacker, a cunning woman, but and also some folks in the Temple of ISO. So you can look all this up it you're interested. The idea is you've got good and evil women of Higherland Magic, and then you've got good and evil men, because Merlin and Arka ago also quite similar, and there's a lot of puns and are going to I can Mago's name because it's arch mage, and then so arch image. So I just thinking about the divide and the different types of magic led me back to Spencer because he's sort of the first big English Cultural Story Tower in modern history. Sort of got chaulcer before him, but then it's Spencer. He funnels all of that superstition, I think, again, after Chaucer, into into the new version that we sort of know it is today, and Spencer rant. Well, that sounds awesome and I need to read that as soon as I can. So building on that is the idea of the seventh side of the seven Sun. Now, traditionally in European folklore they had healing powers and second site. So apparently that's the thing, and I knew from reading a book for a Spencer the numbers are important. Seven is important, three and four. So seven is the number of perfection and the reason it is the number of perfection is because it is the number of heavens. So three, Holy Trinity. Will come back to that. But also male, Male, because of you know, Genitali made up with three parts. So three is the number of perfection or seven is no wait for it. So it's three and four. So three is heaven and male. So the heavenly world, and you're so male for some prising gets associated with heaven. How and fair. And then for is earth and female, right, so the joining of female and male and the joining of Heaven and earth together is seven, and all the numbers work out and that is a perfect number, seven, signe of the seven Sun. I was like, this is some good shit. It's some good shit, isn't it? But it comes back to have like this idea of non binary right. So the numbers are very big and book for because it's all about relationships and friendships and you've got to have the perfect balance between the people, otherwise everything balls apart. And it's discording of concourse and all of that. But BRETTA MART is part of that as well, and it's this idea of this whole being. She becomes as whole being and then she also meets article, who becomes her lover, and together they form the entire like they make the tutor bloodline, which is why it's so important for Spencer and legitimizing the too, doesn't everything that's a whole other rant. But together like so he goes off on his question, he becomes a fully formed person, and they're fully formed people in and all themselves, and then they joined together in this fusion of perfection. So that's how it goes back to Spencer and that's what lend me a Bretta Mart and the staff and I'm like, I had it's all there and s because she joins the two worlds and it's consilience. But I see your argument and I think it has a value as well. So I think it's both. It's rigid. Say It's non binary. It is non binary. I did want to clarify when you were saying like three is the number of men, because you got two balls and a penis. Yeah, while it was for women, it might be like because, because, because, earth, and he see odd, the wonderful wizard, he is no, no Geah, yeah, and he see o't yeah, who is earth? For elements makes up. I think maybe that's for all links. Yeah, I like that. That's good. Love it. Yeah, so everything I looked up just said seven is a divine number and I'm like, but why? Why? Yeah, three and four. I was looking at things. I'm like because it's yeah, there comes up all throughout genesis like this, the seven animals on the Ark, and and there's it's altered the Bible. Seven, deadly Simpson. Yeah, it's a fancy number that comes up room. So I'm like, is this good? Just go back to like Constantine and stuff. CAINE, evente. Sevenfold...

...as another good one, s name of a terrible metal core band. Of course it is. But yeah, also for is big in arest to chilling physics, and then in Galen, galenic medicine, and it keeps coming up and then linked with three and then I'm calling. Yeah, I like to have a part. I did find interesting. I'm Gad, not Gad. Gad, whose name means good luck, is the seventh son of Jacob in Genesis. And then I rally is the seventh son of Gad. There is a seventh son of a seventh son in Genesis. There's no information about who he is. I thought there might have been a connection to aerial and the tempest, but there's not because that just means airy, like air, and the meaning of a rally is the light or vision of God. So that that implication is there in the naming already in Genesis. So there you go. But yeah, so the traditional folk or stuff, the main powers I saw ascribe to it are the healing Yep, which again it comes back to seven seventh son healing powers, and second sight. Yeah, traditionally it seems like seven sons are more in touch with nature than natural healers, which again sort of aligns of them with this consensus traditional idea of which magic rather than wizard magic right for accepting Pratchett's fantasy binary because that's what granny weather expells. She goes around does the healing. Yeah, healing, yeah, and they're in touch with the earth. So I thought that's another interesting contradiction there. There does seem to be some turning point where it becomes connected with the idea that the king had the divine healing power and there for a seventh son of a seventh son. If they share that power, we're in touch with God, and that's where it becomes reassociated with heavenly air male magic rather than a naturalistic thing. But I didn't want to read about that because it's way too much. Well, it links really easily to all the Shakespeare stuff where the moment the king's out of work, all the rule you know, the ruler is not who it's meant to be, the whole world falls part and it has to be healed because it's corrupted. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Save for Weird Sisters. Shakespeare Sup Right. Keep we spent a lot of this podcast talking about education and access to education, which is a big theme of equal rights that projects deliberately putting in there. But the entire book is promised on this idea of biological determinism. Right, it's because a wizard, not because she's an amazing student or anything. It's because a wizard because she's the son of a vern eight son. You've written, John, ecological probability. It's right for the book and it stood. Asked me because most of the stuff about, you know, everlushersychology, biological determinism, all about. It's all statistics, like women who have these are more more likely to this and men who are this more and more like. It's just statistics. All of it is statistics. When we sold this already a female wizard in the color of magic, but two books later we get sorcery, which is all about the eighth son of an eighth son is a sorcerer and is going to ruin everything because sorcer is a dangerous which suggests that eight son of eight sons are rare occurrences and in that book it's a reason why wizards are allowed to have sex because they might create sorcerers. But here Q daggle is an eighth son of an eighth son. The Wizards are very much a Catholic I. We're definitely in sorcery. Yeah, I mean even this book I think it's an equal rights where the reason the wizards don't have sex is because magic is more fun. Yeah, but definitely becomes something through out Pratchett. So Oh yeah. So this is another thing. I think this comes back in the Tiffany aking novels as well, because she is a witch because she's they talked about how she's inherited it from my grandmother who was a witch. So the witching's in our burnes and it says in this book the witching was in granny weather waxes bones. So despite this, this gender criticism do with red good cell production project is subtly, will not so subtly in the premise. But in terms of granny weather wax, the idea of whitching being a baron's he's kind of saying these things are just genetically determined, and that goes back to my reading of will sque has to be a wizard because she's born that way. Yeah, not in the cool lady Gaga fashion, but in the sort of genetic determined, rigid gender roles and as a way, like we thinking of it as a good thing and other people don't get it. You know, we talked about it is as a privilege thing, like Oh, she's lucky to be seven signs, seven side, but equally well, it could be a bad thing. I want to point out the references to the Gorman gast series. Yeah, I'm the found one, which I will. There's only one in this book, but there was in all the first books. There's lots of references, to my view, and and this is this is something that gets ironed out of his writing later, but there's a lot of the narrator sort of making same stuff that doesn't make sist in the world. Yeah, like you references Gandalf, right, yeah, and he references Golmagass and like, wait, but that's not yeah. Yeah, now, Gorman garst is is a fantasy series of gone. Gaster is a castle. That's this weird disfigured it's the epito. I did it an essay on this for we've read it. Yeah, correct, have you? No, I started reading it for actually one of my students in my first year class of reading the city, one that I took kept telling me, because I told him all, don't write the city is a character. Do not write that or say all even that's well, that's what she kept saying. She keeps saying no, Gorman gaster is the one, and she was described to me. I said I this sounds really cool and I looked it up and it's like six hundred pages of an eight eight series and I was like that this has never happen more than that. Right, the first one is really the only one you need to read, and that's how's everything you need to know, and this castle is the definition of the sublime in the Verkians. Yes, it's amazing. The second one is a bit naughty, and the...

...third one, I think he also gets Alzheimer's right now, right, and he's writing it while he has all Alzheimer's and it's just a bit of a mess and I'm pretty sure his wife fixes it up after those. The first one's really only good one, and steer pipe you like. He is a satanic hero, he's a satanic character. They made a TV show about it and when I was preferring reading it, we were. I'd read the Bit and then we watched the episode. Give me the TV show and it's got this great credit scene that you've got to go look at where they just go gold. That's my piece. Well, I tried to read or listen to the audiobook of the the first book for this, and I got halfway through and I just I was telling it. I did like, what's the the midwife name was? What's her name? Like, God, she had a good name. It's like nanny, nanny slag. Yeah, Nanny Slack. For the actual point I wanted to make about Gorman gasp is the the main guy, the the Prince Dude Titus. He's not that crib and eight son, but he is born on the eighth day of the eighth month. Yeah, what's the I mean you've solved the seven problem. I think it is just infinity. I'm trying to remembering the fix of Gorman Gass. I think eight's a funny number. That never gets pick so approachet chose it instead of seven. But yeah, maybe the infinity thing, because, I mean, you've read anything happening like he doesn't become a wizard writings, he doesn't. He becomes a Shitty King. From memory, steerpike's the only good character anyway. And then, wizard, do books I read ages ago become fever dreams? Yeah, I'm related, but in the researcher to over, Jenny Weasley is the seventh weasley child. So she is at least the seventh son. J K Rowling said in the interviewed that Jinny Weasley was specifically based on, quote, that old tradition of the seventh daughter of a seventh daughter and a seventh son of a seventh son. So that. So that's why she's the seventh, because she's a gifted which like now she's good money gifted, which people. Yeah, we're not blowing any minds by saying that. That's how the books are written. This is maybe this is the start of jk row and claiming things that aren't actually in the text. Now, of course there was another book published the same year as equal rights by Awesome Scott Card called seventh son. So seventh son is the first book in cards celebrated tales of Alaban maker series. The first book, Seven Son, won the locust award, fantasy award for best fantasy novel of the year. So this is a known influential work. It's not a fantasy like discworld. It's set on earth, it's an alternate history and it's essentially I've written epic fantasy, but it's not epic. It's sort of low fantasy, retelling of the foundation of mormonism. What a sentence. It's a it's an interesting collection of words, is what I'm saying right, while words can check the world, they can. Yeah, so Alvin, the main character, who's the seventh son. He's an analogy of Joseph Smith and he is the second make up, which is essentially a wizard. He's the second maker since Jesus, so good for him. Yeah, so Jesus is a wizard and he opposes the UNMAKER, who isn't Satan. He's sort of chaos. But you know, it's the premise of the book. Of course, card is a homophobic asshole WHO's linked homosexuality with pedophilia while writing the end as game series, which is all about tolerating other cultures and different ways of seeing the world. I don't get it, same as JK. You know, they're just missing the point. Like read owneddamn books. But the oven maker series it's decidedly more conservative. I mean obviously at the villains of the series. I mean I've only read the first book, but the villains of the series that they're sitting up even then are the red men. So not great. But you haven't read this one, right. This isn't a game of our situation. Yeah, it's okay. It's like for what it is, for a weird woman book, like he's a good storyteller, but it's not particularly an interest Mormon book. I mean currently xenocide. That's the best end this game book, I think, which is all about again tolerating people who are different from you. He said. Yeah, this book has some interesting parallels with equal rights. Weirdly, it has kind of a strange feminist angle to it. It's dedicated to card's daughter, M Geniese card, and in the dedication he says who knows all the magic she will ever need? So very, very similar to ask the Emily Geniese card is an audiobook narrator and a stage after so still a right for ourself, I guess. Yeah, yeah, and the sort of the twist of the first book is that the real hero is not Alvin, because he's sort of young and naive. But it's the character Peggy Gersta, who is a five year old torch, which is the series word for like a kind of psychic who protects Alvin during these you cheeses her gifts to ensure he survives, so that he can be the nexuse. The book is about the UNMAKERS trying to get rid of him so that the second age can't come right. So it's revealed at the end of the book that she sort of been influencing things with her gifts to protect him his entire life. I've just realized now in after your Spencer thing with the second son of the seventh son. Is that so Alvin maker has the healing magic and they're being in touch with nature. He guessed there is is a she's a precog. So this is the the two aspects of the seventh sun magic, the premonishes and the healing and the male and the female. And if you had them together, you need the balance. We got the Non Binary clan. I doubt card was going for a non binary angle there, given that he does not like the Lvgt community, but then again, and his game is all about tolerating other cultures. There's also a line that stuck out to me where it says, yeah, Peggy decide she's done with crying for the rest of her life. Reminded...

...me of in discworld. Esque decides. That odd. She doesn't decide, but it says esque didn't cry a lot because it never seemed to achieve much. And this is that's me again. Is like she's yeah, there's some active he's gendering her a specific way, that he's trying to gender her. One of Alvin's sisters, Eleanor, is also a witch who has to hide her magic from her husband, whose name is literally armor of God. That is his name, and he describes meeting his wife. He says she started discut a Spearman on my floor and say somehow I'm I shed for her to stop it and get out of my house. I coud to the Bible where it says you shall not suffer a which to live. And for a right testy half hour, you may be sure, like she's portrayed as a victim right cards putting the stuff in there like the sort of feminist subplot don't I forgets developed over the rest of the books, but something's going on there. M As far as the shall not suffer which to live that's exodus two eighteen, which is part of a section on laws of human relations. That seems like a bad one. Go on. Well, yeah, I mean this is again. Where does the Gender Binary and prejudice come from? But my my fancy study Bible suggest that the word which she is related to it with, which means to know, and I know that. Every time Joel uses his Bible he says exactly that. I do because I like my fancy Bibal. It served me well. It also distances me from being a weird Bible Guy, because Maddie got very concerned that I had a buddy Christ in my car and a school. She doesn't like it when I when she comes into my office and I've got the Bible out. That's fair. I went to a Catholic high school and afterwards I purged all bibles from my from everywhere, and now I need a Bible to use and I've got to use the Internet. Well, I'm going through it in Ay. I'm like yeah, but I'm looking for wizards like and I need it for Satan, like the whole rests look up Satan stuff. But yeah, the note has in the which is light to the word wit and also characterizes, which is as pharmacists who were considering poisons, which is interesting to me because the pharmacist ties into the idea of the healing stuff and the female wizard lady got friend as a poisoner. I don't know, coincidences? Yeah, I mean thumbs is the people who know how the herbs and the you know, the stuff works together. Yeah, I did try and see if there was some kind of, you know, hidden meaning to don't suffer, which to live. There's not. It literally just means kill people. Actually, yeah, that's there's nothing to that. There's no ambiguity. But back to card. There's also this theme of the power of words. So one of the characters tells the story about how Benjamin Franklin was the greatest American wizard who pulled lightning out of the sky and made Americans by using the word in these letters and writing. It's actually sounds crazy, and then it's sort of done pretty well. The idea that he invented America not by putting a boundary around it, but by popularizing the word American, people started to identify as Americans. They also say he wasn't an actual wizard. He used science and stuff to do the lightnings. That sort of ties in with the witch stuff. You also takes a shot at university. He says, he just makes a reference that they're not likely to teach you about magic and university, which is I just thought was interesting. The comparison to equal rights comes out the same year and is all about going to university to learn magic. And back to Spencer again. The audiobook version of Orson Scott Card seven son that I was listening to end with an author's note that you can't get in words anywhere where. He talks about how the book in the whole series was inspired by Bence's fairy queen. Then he missed the point, but well, yes, and I don't think the plot was inspired like he just says. He read the Fairy Queen and really liked it and wanted to write poetry, and so that's how he got started. This book started as an epic poem because, like all fantasy others, he wanted to write the great American mythology, sort of a fairy queen for America, and that's how the book got started and then it became a novel. So it's more an inspiration rather than a influence. I guess there's any of the stuff I've talked about here, Job Denny Spencer stuff for you, or is it just a it is not home. I'm just disappointed that that's what happened. You know, that's what spencers influence got us, woman Bo. He's also kind of cheating to go. I'm going to write the great American mythology, but I'm just going to steal mormonism. HMM, that's already a thing. But there are they've already done it. There's a church. You'll part of it. What are you? What are you? But more importantly, the book seventh son. Why else? And Scott Card inspired the seventh I made now, the seventh son of a seventh son. How is that more important? But oh well, it's far more cultural, irrelevant influential than what's Scott cards to and it's one of like the three or four best I made now. So yeah, the other literary intertextual reference we haven't talked about is hre lovecraft with the dungeon dimensions at the end of the book. Although as much as is is explicitly lovecraft in this is also earth. See, right at the end of the father shore he goes into the other realms, just every fantasy and everever they descend into something and they come back. Well, it's all for its yeah, yeah, it's a nice it's everyone, but particularly with the Earth see parallels. This is how books one and three of Earth send as well, with get going into the other world to fight the dungeon dimension creatures, essentially, but practice playing on their lovecraft stuff. He describes the creatures from dungeon dimensions as having a real faces, the not even...

...a necrophile could love. That was a stand outline for me, but took me back. I have to say that I thought, I'm like, what good next files love, and he's already done a bit of this in the color of Magic's the first book here, and there's a whole lovecraft seen in that first book, which we'll talk about again when we get to it. So they appear again here, the the creatures from the Dungeons and mentions. We get introduced to Bel Shamarrath Cathogan and the insider, the hideous old dark gods of the Necro Telenomicon, the book known to Certain Mad Ad Apps by its true name of Liba pagonarium for alum. He says they're always ready to steal a slumbering mind, which again ties into lovecraft dream lands stuff like that. Spencer Very Queen is set in dreamland, right HMM. I also just wanted to know that, because they talk about magic being the the Medi for making dreams Real, they steal the dreams. Say Coal Rights is dedicated to Neil Gaiman, who learned us the last surviving copy of the Legio pagonarium for Allum. I think it translates as the yellow pages or something, but it's the phone book of the dead. Is the jerk about the NECRO telenomicon there, which is a running joke between game and and Pratchett, their friends. It appears again in good omens, which is the book they wrote together, and game and Sandman. But there's an extra jerk here that I didn't get. The lovecraft and older gods. We get introduced to our Bel Shamrov. He's an obvious parody of Bell Sigoth from robberty Howard started the gods of Bell Sagoth, although weirdly, Bell Sagoth is not a God's a place. That's the dead kingdom where actually Goldgroth is the chief God. Now the inside. There as an obvious parody of the outsider, which is a true love cross story ite. But then of course there is Kethole again, who I thought might have been a reference rather than to Katulu, to Cathuga, who's this like fireball going. But now it's just a jerk about call again using they love it. They love which you talking? Yeah, with the tell of telephone book of the dead. But like I realized that as I was writing the notes, like yeah, that's this viable reference to this book. I was like to jerk about telephones. Never mind, so he'll. In her article talks about the fellow imagery of the staff during the battle at the end of the book, about how it changes from a dull read into a painful violet and then collapses and shrinks until it looks as potent as a nice piece of kindling, which is very amusing. But on the Wiki it claims that when he receives the artwork from Josh Kittsie and died, yet connorser the telephone right now. Unless why can't Josh Kirby come to the phone right now, right because he's dead? But if he had the telephone book of the dead, Hey, all phone on the WIKI claims that when project received the artwork from Kirby he was surprised by how it's a bloomingly reflected the forty and overturnes of the book. And I've got the big picture up on the screen here. Oh my God. Yeah, it's part of a broomstick. But yeah, the front that looks like an old shot does, which is brusing with the lane an bomb and that has to be delivered right. I don't know, man, he probably put some intricate detail on there. We don't put much stock and Freud the days or not. The fourth thing, but the FELIC imagery, because I've read that and I went, Oh, I never knows that. I went and got my book. My Oh shit. I think what shows it over is that the end of the staff is thicker than the back of the staff. Yeah, and and I well, I think the veins really do it, or the epsially do it, looking to say in the book that it has it has carving. So there is some but the the stuff is exploding in a stream of white stars. So yeah, there's why. I don't know, man. Yeah, so the book ends and they talk about how every everything's come full circle and they're going to let women into Unseen University as soon as they get the plumbing sorted out. Now he'll claims that this is a historical excuse used to delay the Gen or advancement in universities and things. I couldn't find anything about it because if you google plumbing sorted out sexism, you just get all these horrible stories about how bad female plumbers have been treated. But you seem to recognize this. Yeah, yeah, I've heard that a fair bit. Like, yeah, plumbing being used as a way to discriminate. All, we don't have the plumbing for that kind of thing. Yeah, we're sort know of it, right. I'd never heard it so from the plumber, though, so I don't if I'm saying well, I don't like the ending. I guess maybe I don't like this. This might be the one thing about the book I don't like because, like this is put in the book as a joke. So if you don't know the reference, you just read it and that's like pratch of being witty and being about how these wizards don't know how they're so smart but they can't work out the plumbing or something. But if it, if it is just a reference to sexism, like he's just saying something sexist to g any weather wax. Yeah, so none of the wizards have worked their lesson or something. There's like there's no twist on it, it's just the thing. Yeah, I think it's project trying to be funny and it just kind of flopped. Yeah, this might be the same thing about how he's making references in the Gandal speech about whatever it was. HMM. Yeah. Also, at the end of the book there's the whole scene with the intelligent ants, which is interesting because in the later wizard books you have the hex computer which has the ant hill inside. You read that far? I've no, I don't remember it. They have a whole room. So later in the wizard books, pond Stevens and stuff, as they get like sort of more...

...parody of science rather than universities, they have a whole room that's this big apparatus that it's essentially it's the magic computer. It's called HEX and it's powered by an ant hill inside, which is a joke about Intel inside, which is something no one gets anymore. I thought I was interesting because we have the intelligent magical ants and in this early book, but and this sort of the metaphor about how the ants they have the the knowledge of it's like longevity. Yeah, it's the immortality and they build this big monument and everything and then they get washed away. This idea about how things are washed away and reset and it's goes in with the plumbing thing about how those progress and a goal washed away or something. But there's also, says Gretty, may or may not have been interested to learn that one of the ants was drum billet, who had finally decided to give life another chance. This is the wizard who gives asks the staff at the start of the book which did these ants only have this knowledge because a smart mail was reincarnated into them. Am I thinking about it too much? I think you might think about too much. MMM maybe. Well, this is sort of like the the idea that es gets born into magic at the start of the book and then drum bill it gets born into magic of the end at the end, like he does decided. Yeah, maybe it's just pratchet being funny. I don't know. That seemed to the book that I don't really like that much. Sorry, with all these contradictions, Penny Hill, when pointing out that there are female wizards and color of magic and that in the later novels granny weatherwax who is now getting students from the Unseen University and Talking About Women Studies and things. So she's never been to unseen university or on from my pork in her life, and esque just seems to disappear and never be referenced again until, I think, it's yet the last ever published book in the series. So she takes this to imply that equal writes a set in a parallel universe to the subsequent novels. And again with the contradictions between sorcery in the eighth son of the eight something, she's suggesting that initially the series, every book is set in a different discworld, so there is no continued although the first two books lead into each other. So it's a it's a bit Wacky, but at the same time, I mean, yeah, it seems to me like any weatherbacks is just being a juice or protecting care. Yeah, I feel like it's pressure just being a bit careless or those the whole thing. The metaphor about the progress being washed away, though, I think changed. Also that again we're back to spence at the nights. Don't learn but there's the thing that makes exhaustick. Is prochos of obsessed with parallel universes. Okay, his science fiction series with Steven backs, the long earth is literally about their infinite parallel universes that you can step into, you can go left or right to different universes. The science of discworld is all about parallel universes. The interview with him I quoted in the unseen academic or Podcast, he talks about how fascinating is with the idea of Paralley universe. is obviously discord itself is a parallel universe. The parallel universe thing is referenced in equal rights itself. ESK says that Simon seem to be saying that there was lots of worlds, all nearly the same and all sort of occupying the same place, but all separated with the thickness of a shadow, so that everything that ever could happen would have some way to happen in you know, maybe there's something to that, although I haven't found anything to justify the protchect was doing that deliberately. It seems like maybe it's given him too much credit for inconsistencies. That's the end of our discussion of the flop. So just some miscellaneous stuff that doesn't really fit anywhere that I looked up. There's the bit about what's the collective noun for wizards or in the GANDALF speech project says wizards tend to exist in orders. so He's already answered his own question. But I went down a real rabbit hole with this Alice. I go through like four different dictionaries of collective nouns and I found nothing. And I couldn't find anything. The two that seemed to keep coming up online as as collected announced wizards were circle and argument was a common online response. Now I can that checks out the circle of wizards, but I was trying to work out where, because the argument I was so dominant. But I couldn't find any. Like I'm like, this is a reference to something, this is a joke right. And then the only reference I could find to it was in the second book of the rivers of London series, where the character Dr Wallyd, I don't know what the context is, says that you call we call wizards and argument of Wizards. Now I don't know anything about this series, but you've read it year and he hated it. No, I read like three of them and I was like no more. It is very mail daisy, like it's on the nose mail days. I really tried to like it because it was so popular. I think I did it audiobook first time and then I tried to read it again, and I try to read again. I got three and US just like I can't. I I had heard of these books. Obviously you have othery you like sort of influential enough to popularize that idea of the argument? MMM now, I didn't think so. So I got nothing for the where the argument of wizards comes from. Also, what is the context, because I went down a rabbit hole looking for a word to describe a thing that sounds like the thing it describes, which I'm sure is a line from a from equal rights, but I didn't write down what it was that appear. Well, that's the that's the sound itself. That's like Bang Right, whereas if you called I get I don't, probably because we were just taking about this. No bed looks like what it is. Yeah, the Oh well, that's yeah, that's interesting now more that the sound. It invokes the thing. So the one that's jumping into my mind right now, which maybe just because we were just talking about is Felic, like fell. It sounds like a penis. Yeah, like comet. You said it. I think maybe it was the dungeon dimensions that they look like what they sound I don't know. But whatever the context, the word I found is a fantasy cool pharnasy, which the Oxford English dictionary defines as a phone name or a group of...

...phonames having recognizable semantic associations as a result of appearing in a number of words of similar meaning. So that's not quite it. That's saying where if you have something like bed head, dead led, all of those things like are similar and the sound is applied to similar things. But in the Merriam Webster Dictionary of linguistics it says that it's a common feature of a sound occurring in a group of symbolic words and points to a one thousand nine hundred and twenty nine experiment by Edward Safe in which sufface subjects were asked to match nonsense words with small and large versions of the same object. The subjects tended to match words with a high vowel with similar sounds to small objects and with low vowel sounds. Two larger objects. So the associations with sound, with it, the way things appear, so that that seems close to what we're trying to describe, but I don't know why we're trying to describe it. So yeah, I think that's the end of a thing. where any other jokes or things that I'm stood out to you? This is palm the brothelonerle. It is a good one for minutes out of that really, because that's one of the ones I sort of rolled my eyes at work because I like that's just like an English street joke. I just love it when he sneaks those in, because I read over it I was like, wait, so is that your favorite joke in the in the book? Favorite joke? No, no, so mine was when granny says she's opposed to books on the strict moral grounds that she has heard that many of them were written by dead people and therefore it stood to reason reading them would be as bad as neck fromancy. That it is beautiful logic. Yeah, I did like that. On some other jocks. That stood out to me is the title. Yeah, I just I just think that's good. I did like ideas below your station. Again, that might be a kind joke, but I was like all, good one. But my favorite choke, which is a dumb pun, is witness looks to the staff for advice and it just says the staff regarded her woodenly. But but that was I got two minutes out of that. Yeah, I laughed out loud of that one. Yeah, just like I did it. Well, we're here. The other one that stood out to me of silly ones was as goes, you meet, it's my destiny and granny shrug and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. They'll be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign up to our patreon page and yet all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any bonus episodes or specials that we end up doing, if you're after more of us. Alice hosts her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature, and you can find me reciting the plots of horror movies to people who are too afraid to watch them themselves over on the Skarty cars. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with a fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing outtakes. Looking up a note below that you want to, if you want me to read. I think we should actually do a deep dive on this for the Weird Sisters podcast, where it will be more relevant. But as a bit of a Teaser, which is a weird turn of phrase to you. Yeah, I have written down what is the traditional interpretation of the witches flying around on Broomsticks myth, and then in brackets have written stuff about which is rubbing hallucinogenic ointments onto broomsticks to ingest it vaginally. It's dangerous to fly on our broom streak with no pants on. Your up high. People can see you. We understood photos also, just don't like splinters. All of this should be saved for for weird sisters. Right, I'll have other problems with it by then. Okay, or maybe maybe I come up you like yeah, it's it's good. Just wait, I'll give it a go. I don't know, man, lineuprosy, I've got orbs. Let's start off the other required upper time yber mact. Neither thats going to say it like you're angry. Any other you go on your man, I'm gonna find which Polish death metal band is called Vibra mact. Uncle. That's also clip and death metal band. That is always, and it was no one called Vagina dentic. Never there's the horror movie teeth. Can Mind. There isn't. There isn't a death metal band called Vibra mact. So I think there's an opening. We should get on it and do a two piece power violence thing. But there is a band called Vagina Dentata. They're from Indonesia, but also, I would like to hear. I've looking up the VIBRA mact on wikipedia and stuff and there's a lot of picches there that that are very intriguing. where, of course, recording this while the resumeval eight tall lady discourses at an all time high. But can I get you to do a google? Can you Google Venom, prison, animus already, and then prison or a death metal band. They're feminist death metal band and this is the cover of their their first album. This is kind to mind when I saw all the viber Mac pictures. Oh yeah, yeah, because it's the painting of Judas, and well, that is a bunch of women who have captured a rapist and ripped off his genitals in our feet, force feeding it to him. I support their endeavors for one, but that comes from the story of Judas. Yes, sure we. This is...

...this particular artist. This style is very popular in out death Malon Life at the moment. The thick blood like none peat. They have taken out. You want life force, if you want to look up, what's this second album called? The second one's pretty nasty, nasty, and yeah, yeah, I can't think what it's called. Is called SAMSARA. I promise we'll get back to Spencer. You don't have to look at the same sorrow one. It's not relevant, but it is. It is pretty nasty. If you're not really show the other one like there was obviously like a thematic sort of she she, Yep, those they are spots, eggs, spot of sacks. Well, that's from that's from Spencer as well. I'll tell me how that's from Spencer. Okay, so book one of the Fairy Queen, the first thing that happens is they meet error, which is his dragon lady, who's like constantly giving birth to these creatures, right, and she's just sort of representative of saying and how it gives birth to itself. And Yeah, right. The other of a woman giving birth a cords of evil babies from some description. Well, that's also when the theogmy like you were talking about a Kidnam before a kid is a name of one of the devils. That's the daughter of whoever they evil. God is gold growth, isn't it? Black wine band, but Gorgoroth is. But that's a lot of the rings reference, although at Nart weights and English symphonic folk metal band. That's Bolsigoff. There not go. I can then Neednie slag comes down. She's got a despunk your balls, I.

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