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2 – Equal Rites

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Episode 2 of Unseen Academicals, discussing the first book in the Witches Series, Equal Rites (1986), and using it to explore definitions and history of magic, magical gender roles, education, the power of words, Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea series, female wizards, male witches, seventh sons of seventh sons, H. P. Lovecraft, parallel worlds and more!

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts  

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com 

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod  

Tis Ai'm Josh Hi, I'm Alice and were theunseen academicals, and today we are going to talk about the third disquadnovel equal rights, the first in the witcher series. Equal rights followsthe story of Escarina Smith, who is the seventh son of a seven son andtherefore possesses wizard magic, but is actually a daughter, so grannywertherwax tries to turn her as a witch, but when that doesn't work, she takeset to the unseen university non Morpork to be trained as the disk's firstfemale wizard and Hilarious, satire of traditional generals, its Hus, anythingto add t butit's, one of my favorites Alice. How did you feel about it?Overall? I thoroughly enjoyed re reading it. It was one that I actuallyhad read and did have some recollections of, and it was very fun,particularly confed. All these other stuff, I have to read yeah a bit ligterthan the things I've been reading as well, because it's one of the earlyones, like all fhatise series, es books, get double and thickness as you go onso yeah, I'm enjoying going back to some of these earlier ones, especiallyafter Unseeng academicals, which is about twice the LIK tof, this one yeah.When does it rate on your rating equal rights? Oh right up there. This is this,is in S. CLASS IS OKAY! It's not my absolute favorite tha, the two that myfavorite favorite pief of time and small gods, but it's in like just belowthat, probably in the Colection of like four or five of these a va plusdisquare key w about yourself, Oh God, nows. I need to reread more of thembefore ill update your. So this is better than on saying I could ev thosyeah. I was going to say that's half as long, but twice as good at least got got feeling if you hade,to give it a letter grade. What's your literate grade thing that you're doingx so is is a Japanese thing? Is Video Games and stuff Havi is is above a is,is like you classic ultimate t, but then it's just ABCD. I want to leaveMyself Tho Room. It's probably in the second tear down,I'm going to say you're going to say, be Yeah Al Right, well, see we'll comeback to you as we go. I'm now I'm going to steal a bit from one of the manyrupoles drag race, podcast that I listen to, which are going to be referenceconstantly, because again it is the only media I have consumed outside ofbooks and video games for the last five years. So it's all I've got, but I'mgoing to steal something off the roofholes dragrays wer cap podcasters.They sarle their episodes by asking to name two things you liked about thebook and one thing you did not all right. So I think the thing that I likewe're going to get into a lot so won't. I wouldn't have rot out too much now,but Itall. It all worked best when they worke together. It wasn't one over theother h. The conclusion or the denument of the of the book is when they worktogether. They achieve this kind of consilients which, as you know, yourTine about Esan, Sumon, yeah, yeah or Branni and cut angle. Is that his nameyeah? I think so. Yeah Yo tthe systems of Matt Magic Work Together and that'swhere they really prosper. That's I was enjoying that somegy baby also tepenson more had a lot of fan with those like you can't change the law and oflike constant and the one thing you did not like everyone feeling in Sam and start. Ireally like pissed me off by the Thir time. It happened yeah. I found itannoying as well. I guess yeah, it's just notreally that funny. Maybe it's a tizelg like they thought it was funny then,but it's not now. It was also in unsing academicals. We had all tha the fat,jokes and stuff, it's just kind of yeah, although I did I did like when Sheusaid, Yo pronounced all those wobble use. I thought that was funny. Butalsogranny, spelling, which I know was munt to be making fun of her, but I loved itlike from he hendport Ith Hav, we known as domen. Try of yes and that's acontinual thing through the steries with yeah now on, no one is literall indisword. So it's a bit of a copout bit the two things I like to ear ESK andgranny weatherwax. I think theyre to really good characters. That's a hugecup aut how day it's a massive copout, but I particularly like H, I mean.Obviously the whole book is the dynamic between them, but I like that, grannyisn't just this. She comes in and fixes everything and tells everyone. What'sright. I like that she was conservative and pushed back against andrereinforced the gender ideals or whatever not ideas. What's the wordexpectations, conventions yeah and then had to like sort of come around to itby myrself and then go storming in and it wasn't just that she went okay, wellyou're, going to be a wizard and took Esto Monfo like Esqueneveron accord andgranny went and supported her. So I like the way they functioned in thestory: it's not as straightforward as like the Aoan it plays on the mentalthing you know in the heroes journey. The idea like meet the mentor and thenthe mental teachers and takes you through, but she's, actually characterin an office outs like the student has become the teacher M, and the thing Idisliked was the ending yeah you're Goinna have to elaborate on that yeah.Well, I guess in my head I remembered how this book ends is that s sort ofsacrifices herself in the dungeon dimensions to save Simon and then she'stropped in the dungeon dimensions where,...

...wherever that came from that's not whathappens, but just the ending like I was saying. The interaction between eskandgranny is really unconventional and pushes against these trips, which iswhat this whole books about and then the ending is when they all livedhappily ever after, like it literally. Does that, like three paragraphs in theinigos, oh an SK quent on and was the best worzard ever on, granny Werzewherether bax became a lecture in women' Studies and I'm like wait. Whatshe did she did: Go back to Badass and have students sent out for every summerand she'St Fuckng about getting Wi the fix et tatching elece, that so, despitethis being one of the oldest disquire books and- and I think one of the best-and I certainly think one of the most important there's not a lot writtenabout this book and in fact, a lot of the places you would that it would havebeen written about. It hasn't been written about this sort of a strange,critical neglect around Acor rites, which is especially surprising, givenhow much critical attention is being paid to the tiffany aching series,which is essentially just equal rat wer rewinand re written as a wobble. You'vegot in the way there. So where did you expect it to be that it wasn't well inall the gender specific studies of FT? There are a ton of articles aboutproject and diswueld that are specifically angle towards gender, Jesand education, gener in education in the richancs novels. Ar So think, heythat's what this books about, but they all just talk about. Tifany achingthere's a specific special issue of the online general gender form aboutPrachetts work and equal Rit is not mentioned once in this entire issue.Now this is just some online jounal but hut. That's a pretty big oversight,especially when the editorial they call weird sisters, the first of pratchetswildly successful witch nevels and that's. I thought they could get awaywith that, because there's only one witch right for anywhere other worksand then the other ones are the witches novels, but they specifically say witchnovels. So I can't even wet the MOFFTHE Hook. Kind of technicality, so weve gotsome equal rigts, O Rasou, going on there. It also includes an articleanalyzing, the treatment of quote equal rights for women in projects laternovel Monstrous Regiment. There is one article that thes Eqel rits in theBibeography, but doesn't actually mention it in the text of the articleatself wow. That's a sneaky scholarship, Simaly, there's no mention of equalrights in an article on the gendered characterization of Terry, Patricewitches in the book critical approaches to Children's literature, which beginswith a whole discussion of binary magic. In the difference between which magicwizard magic doesn't come up there at all, that collection focuses onchildren's novels. So it's talking about the tipany aching and the youngerreader books, but it still talks about the other diskword book. So if you weregoing to bring me out finaly magic, I would want to think you talk about itall rights, there's the brief mentions of it elsewhere in the same collection,there's a chapter on nonformal education in the DISCAV novels, buteven there it's only mentioned as an example of a novel where UncentruUnseen University is the Central Focus along with unseeing academicals,there's no actual analysis, just kids, a general plot descrisions, as theuniversity is involved in a couple of other articles that is referred in,they only ever site the description of magic and and Granni's appearance likea physical appearance. These are the twue things that keep coming up. Theynever talk about sk or gender or what actually happens in the book? It'salways like just the premise yeah there. I also found a master thesis aboutJenid Magic in Educa and educational ideology in Disworld, which has aparagraph long epograph from Equa rat, but then doesn't actually discuss thebook. It's mentioned, yeah, three or four times taking up two to three pagesof an e page thesis on Jedded, magic and diskwolth is a neglected, youngerchild. Okay, yeah ill do Jime. Okay, so I what's your theory about whyit beingneglected. I mean, I think, there's just the fantasy literature in generalhas been neglected. weedly procece seems understudied given his culturalprowess, but that's how I was gonna say I was gon no say that's how fantasygoes, but there's plenty of stuff written about Harry Potter and and Lordof the Rings, and even the Pomon series that I can never thinkabout yeah and like Gwen and stuff and prochets outside all of them, but HarryPotter. So- and we talked about this being a thing because it's parody, it'snot prober fansy- that that sod of that's some people have suggested that,and I don't again it's so popular. Like he's the until jk relling, he was thebest IG British alter of all time, I'm pretty sure. So whether you think it'sneat you or not. This is what people are reading yeah most of thescholarship, it's all about the tiphany aching series and it comes from studiesof Children's literature. So I guess that's where studies of fantasy areaccepted, but I mean I don't see how you can discuss the tiffany achingseries without discussing necal rights. Really there is one exception there,and you don't have this in your notes, because I only found it last night inthe two thousand and Leven biography, Terry Pratchat, the spirit of fantasyCraig Cabo calls equal rigts, the very best book in the diskworld series andprobably the most important book. As far as giving breath to the series isconcerned, he then continues if the diskworld series had concluded as atrilogy. I would venture that the first three books would still be incrediblyimportant as genrece challenging and building stories. The first page ofequal rigts alone wins an award for daring to tread where no man or womanhad trone before perhaps Prachett should have ceased, writing discroledafter equal rights, because it would...

...have then provoked more critique andwould possibly have leant more greatness to the series. I don't knowabout that last part, but I do tend to agree that yeah. As I said, this is oneof my favorite desquare books and I do think as far as shaping the actualseries, it's incredibly important, a great so just to elaborate on the ideathat this is sort of fundamental and shaping the way the series progress,lite, you're, doing a re rite now so you've read the first three, so colorof magic and and liht fantastic they're, very dude, oriented they're, very dude,oriented and they're, very like the silly yeah, and they don't pass thebackbelt test. Yeah that'H, that's not a lot of women!Ivolved O! You say that, as you say, they're quite silly, thers yeah they're,very silly, whereas this is a much more. It's still funny, but it's a much morefocus book. It's not just like the first two books are just scenes. Theyare set up for set pieces and jokes, whereas this is a story about acharacter, but the tourist in the first books, like he's just a set up for abunch of jokes, about like stereotypes and things, whereas here askisspecifically being used to challenge stereotypes and social progression,which is where a lot of thelater discabe books scars. I love of theprevious characaters for sort of direct parodies where she is the first fullyFolm Characterin of herself, and in brings parodies and ideas together,yeah. It takes him like ten or so books to get it fully ironed out, but I thinkhe abandons the sort of silly jocularity ot, the first two bookspretty quickly and equal rigts is actually the foundation for where hewould go with the discord series later on. But we're going to start by lookingat the the gender rolls, which I think is probably the main fircus of the book.So in o thousand and eighteen, Article Agen rage and Terry Praccets, witchesnovels, M, Isabel or Goddon't. Even try, Howard Ofeel, like sheuld, be moreoffended if the tride than just leaving I'm gonna go with M Isabel Capti Villaand I'm very sorry if I said that wrong and I skipped the middle part, becauseI didn't want to stuff it up. She says purchase which is, are an interestingaddition to the ranks of female heroes, ind action roles or doing men's jobsand contemporary popular narratives. They stand out because of the nature oftheir job, which mostly involves chares traditionally associated with womensuch as tending to those in need of help, the sick and the infirm. Insteadof reversing gender roles and turning women into honorary men, pracets uvertsthe existing parameters that define generrols themselves and presentsfemale jobs as tough, necessary and, above all, heroic, which is arespective because they are needed. They are the unofficial people who workaround the edges and who can deal with the little bumps and inconveniences andlittle problems. Probably don't need that second part. Do I well? No keep itbecause h t that's grany where the weather, wixis woll things he's justlike a many useless they're over they're doing maths. We we have to SAVpeople like her she's introduced at the beginning as a midwife. That's true andthat's sort of there's a lot of inconsistencies between eogle rightsand he laiter, which is novels that will get into because that's sort ofmanyogs roll in the later things like she's, the mother, once that architytebecomes more define but yeah you're right he's introduced as a midthepanning woman, trisial haning woman figure yeah. But I sort of have a problem with thisreating, because the whole point of it is that SK is doing a man's a man's job.That is the whole point of the book right wow. So the thing that I think Ihave to add today is it like at the start you're like when that doesn'twork when teaching her to be a wich doesn't work, she does succeed inteaching her to do witche things like using the borrowing, your stuff we'llget back to that, and she knows all the hopes and she knows all the theory andshe's been putting into practice and stuff. But S has these other powersthat are innate, because she is a sevent son of seven daughter of a sevenson and she goes on and is able to do, rose US traditionally associated withmen. I think the point is she is the she just does both it's not heraphrodidic whatever, but she combines both of them in one being and andovercomes that gender inversion. I don't know I don't know. If she does, Idon't. I think she abandons the witch magic like pretty quick, smart.Obviously she does be borrowing later on in the university. So yet she'staking the lessons and applying them but like the whole point, is that thewitch magic doesn't fit because it's the wrong kind of magic and he has tobe a wizard there's this essentialism. There see I took it as she's learnedall that and she'll use that, where it's necessary annow she's going off tolearn the rest of it. We don't see the rest of the story. We don't like. Icould see it being really useful that she's off con some wizard adventure andshe knows that this master and wilder x. You know- and also this about geometry,but yeah yeah she's- definitely incorporatingthem, but I think she wants to learn wizard magic and not wich magic. Ithink that maintains, like, I think, there's the constant frustration withgranny weatherwack she's Goin. You've taught me all these things, but it'snot real magic. It's not what I want to do and I think it late in the laterBooks Tho, which is obviously become much more prominent and powerfulcharacters in their own wriht as they get developed. The wizards continue tobe like ridiculous paroty, so projects clearly throwing his loning with thepractical witch magic over the stuffy academical stuff. But I think this bookis telling us that SK is a wizard and and whether there's a bit of hybriditythere or not, like the point of the book, is of a woman doing man's jobfilling the generrole that is, that is traditionally ascribed to man. That isthe point of the book. Okay, Tak Mo we get to the magic okay. I think infactthat further but yeah, I see point, and I wonder if that's one of the reasonsthat it's sort of been overlooked a bit...

...is that it is like sort of just thatbasic flip, like of the Gander, reversal, it's not as complex assomething like weird sisters or which is abroad. Although I would say it ismore effective. I mean yes, there's more to it than that, but just yeah. Asfar as the premise goes, it's kind of black and wise to me at least the othercounter example. That is this book, isn't about ask it's about Grannyweatherwock! So esk is the female in the the maile role, but grandyweatherwax is the woman at performing the in and doing it our own way, yeahand and having to do men's jobs, because the men won't go their jobs.That might no one will teach s US SA. She does yeah, and this brings us to.Why is there a distinction between wizards and witches adolt? A all allright? What did you find? Well, I did the the basic academic thing and wentto the oed straightaway, so the theoxford English itary defines wizardas a sage or a wise man. That's the first definition, but the seconddefinition, a man who is skilled in a cult arts in later use a man whopractices witchcraft, the male counterpart of a witch. So it's notsaying yes, the male Ovin, the male cont of part of which, but a man whopractices witchcraftit's very hard to go back to the start, because it justgoes and goes and goes like as far as just the word usage goes yeah, it'ssort of as you go into the other definitions. The word derives fromideas such as a witch doctor. So again, this is aquaiting the two roles ratherthan separating them, and if you go to the oxoting English dictionary defineswhich, as a man who practices witchcraft or magic a magician,sorcerer or wizard, that's the fe in that sense like Famendo, which, as twomen were tried in the witch trials yeah and that's like an outdated definition,but that is the oldest original definition in the IID. It says a man,so not even a woman, there's a specific mow definition. Sorry, no! No! Just reflecting on howwomen miss out on either night go he kind of really riches. We can't even have our own diabolical tgo on. Welwhen women do get brought into it. It is as h the nextseconddefinition, a female magician so being defined in terms of the mail, whereasthe original definition was a man who does witchcraft. The second one is afegale version of the man that does the witch crow, that's essentially saying,which is a female wizard yeah and then, and then a lady use, a woman who issupposed to have dealings with the devil or evil spirits which we will getinto the only other interesting thing about the defrinitions was in a lot ofthe historical examples. They give there's a lot of examples of menwitches and he wiches and things. So that's from the sixteen hundreds. Thoseexamples who so traditionally, when the word was being defined and brought intousage, was used to describe primarily men. So where do we get this divide soyeah the bit that everyone likes to quote the granny weatherwax says at thestart of the book. So this is an every article that actually mentions equalrigts. She says I mean there's no Moue whiches, only silly men, if men werewitches, they'd be wizards. It's all down to Hedology, how your mind works,men's minds, works differently from our sea. Female Wizards aren't right eitherit's the wrong kind of magic for women is wizar magic. It's all books andstars and Gometry she'd, never grasp it. Whoever heard of a female wizard, whichis as a different thing altogether, it's magic out of the ground not out ofthe sky and then never could get the hang of it yeah. This is Greatywheather axesting. There are two kinds tere as higher magic, there's, lowmagic earth, magic, Skry, magic and one is for man. One is for Wen. This is thetraditional, an fanasy divide, Tbat, I think, maybe not posteqal rights people,but fantasy readers. BATDIES would be familiar with so yeah and with women itget inte more gended, like often if they'r high magic, theyre, evil, theireenchantenes that seductressas tefen fo tals you'rl, often you don't get just aa female sorcerer doing a thing like well. I think there's the patrictspeech about Gadoft and stuff that I'm going to talk about more later, but hesays in ther he goes well yeah. There are souceurces, but that's just a witchwith good legs exactly that. It's all bout, fexuality yeah, so you laughed at dometry. So I have toask what is a theage Yeah Ighidid? Some good playing yeah so when he wasteaching me all about history of magic and magic stuff for our discussions onSpencer, he taught me that there's a difference between goatism and theagry-and this happens- a lot peope will tell me something and I can't fight a ong,Google and then years later it comes up an Obcue, a book on Hetoric, well Yetedrump in quickly before you go on with your thing, I also did some googlingwhen you wrote thoge twice in the the notes I was like Yeah did you missspelltheology Yeahg Goaticism, apart from being a good trick to Con Song? I knowwhat that is, but theog not in the oed, all right, so you've got to types ofmagic. Sot Speaks Tet, Gotis itheogy and that jus there's another netbut.Those are other names that the black and white magic distinction go tosomething blike magic and steag being white magic. But you do have two othersort of traditional types of magic, so there's high and low and whatever, butthere's also a kind of magic which is just like pressing a button. You saythe Magic, wods and boon. The thing has happened and you say the magic wordsover the bread and suddenly it's the...

...body of Christ wit, the wine of Chrice,an over that works, the magic theth and then there's magic where you actuallyunderstand how it works. So you know people look at tole buildings that havebeen built and sa all those ere aliens. But when you know what it is, then,then the magic can be explained: D Wif we talk about with braining wether Wexas well yeah, so so richers is gotism and and theoge is theg is wizard stuff.But this this leads into thether prejudice as well, because myunderstanding of going I'm going to say go to that TAT's. Actually, I think theother way round. It wiz s a molgootism because they do stuff and they don'treally understand ha how it's going. But this is what I say: It's blood andte thing for the wich just what they have to know the theory to do the thing,whereas the wizards, just like the drawn circles on the ground, and nonereally knows why it's working interesting yeah, I can Butsicud Thi. Iwas trying to dipotomize the Mobina finerize put draw line the whole bookand a like. I doesn't work, it's a fot. What I think th the traditional the waymale authors of fantasy want you to see. It is that which is following drawpintacles on the ground and invok demons, which is that's my that's myunderstanding of goatism or how it issing is that it's related to summoning demons, and I think, when Iwas looking up the definitions, trying to find thg that it says the wordgoitism comes from a book that is instructions for someofthing devens.They go sorry it's it. When Thee said to me, I was like Oh yeah, black magicright and then thea e is white magic and then we go from there. Basically,while black magicic would be which, as white magic would be wizardedly Isit yeyeah, what equal write is doing is complicating this yeah, which is whatwe want. It talks about, the magics found her they say and then later on,but it's not their jake most magic. Isn't so, whether or not magic is athing and again it's complicated because you've got the borrowing in theand we know there's magic, as we would call at mentic on dis Gol, but there'salso just like identifying mushrooms and she calls ut magic and that's whyI'm Grannin Wyther works as saying most magic. Is it I think that just pactionis being very aware of all the superstition involved, because if Youregoing back to in this was a huge thing in sort of Europe and England, the endof the Mi Medanaval, peradent and really during the elizabatan period.Obviously that was no magic, but most magic was just all about sipstitionlike you go to the well, you throw a Rockin and you get a good crop, andthings like that, like most magic is at most megic is just believing. So Ithought prasect was doing and he was just complicating at an interesting wayand great branng water. Wex Is aware the most magic isn't, but also has n'tunderstanding that there is some magic that doesn't always know where to drawthe line, and then she says things like all: The magics found that how you knowthat kind of fact relision to decline of magic is all about the relationshipbetween religion and magic. Would you believe, but how as magic filters out thesuperstition pakes O lot a much longer to leave. Also and H, religion for alot of people who were uneducated was entirely superstition. They just wentto church over the week and wee told what they were told and for them it was.There was not much different to knowing that if you threw a stone and well, itwould get you good prop or if you left something out, they wouldn't take yourbaby or whatever it was. So there is a very much emerge between religion andand superstition, which is pessentially, witchcraft or ideas about magic. A then,as religion disappears those ideas maing around so much much Longran tellyou start to educate people, but the interesting thing in there riason. Ibrought all of that up. Thi's t e tradition of the wise man which, but inthe midth of the Megas it talks like it, goes way back in the history of themagical talks about Solomon and Moses and Hyphegoris in particular. But therewas a line. That's Toud! Ask Me when I was reading it. I was just pit tegrases,your like your original Vegetarian Guy, as well so that'stig to me. Yeah. It gohand in hand but yeah the because, like when you think of catullcism it, youknow you say the words over the bread and it's Ha body of black race, likethere's very little difference between that and and magic soit speak. So theyhad to really drum up a difference in order to say one as evel and one isgood butinmit. The megasit talks about how Christ practice the same kind ofmagic as his predecessors, but because the devil demanded that he proved oncommand. Magic became reached to the devil in Megit te way. We knew it todayand so Mito. The NEGAS makes this agument that, after prize magic in theway, we know it became evil and to the work of the devil. And then there wasthe good magic was the Christ and the Christian and the Catholic mantic. Soagain, it's just another destinctione between the magic ind, the history ofmagic and now it sort of developed for you, so ye actually in the book,philosophy and Tarry Project, which I just got today actually- and there aretwo books Thas the philosophy of Terry Project. I think it's Calld, which iscomplete junk and then there is pholosophe Andtero Prajec, which isreally good and detailed, although it has a disastrous in index but yeah inthe book philosophy, antery project, Thomas W, Manahein, analyzas, Perthac,portrayal of which magic in terms of critical thinking in a philosophicalsense, and he criticizedas the Academinitians of critical thinking asHurpulsee of abstract, that he says that the granning weatherwax model issort of a lia on this idea of common sense and what pouthet called latercalls white knowledge, which again complicates the...

...yeah we'll cover that later, when itcomes up fin. The other books. But it's sort of a privilege. Generalizationlike everyone knows stuff, but it relies on real wodworld experience, so that sort of ties into the access toeducation thing that we're about to talk about, but also there's the quotewhere, when Granny weatherwaxes asked to define magic, you were talking aboutknowing mushrooms and things. I think the quote from the book is she showingher the howshe handles the bees and she asked you know: Did I use magic tohandle the bees, and I says well know you just know a lot about these, butyeah it's like if you can build a big building. If you don't know how it'sdone you just like. Oh Yeah, at's magic it'eme, the aliens did it for Greddy.Weatherwax says that well, that's one form of magic and and Escos so magics,just knowing things other people don't know, because some of what it comesdown to is the reason why the witches and the wizards are privileged ormagical above. The other nonmagical characters in the disquod is that theyknow things through formalized education in the case of the wizards oryou know now common sense life experience in the case of the witchesthey have access to education, whether that's university, education or, ifit's you know having graddy weather wax. Who knows everything? Take you under awing and show you around. They have these experiences that other peopledon't have yeah. You notice two very distinct styles of education. I thinkwere at the university there's sharing knowledge and reading books and theselessons, but, as we talked about wizard orders are often very ritualizedformals circles, thet have masrooms and vectures and their paiting stup on theground and whatnot. But no one really seems to understand what they're doing.As I say, they don't understand what sine is talking about, but they coveredthat knowese. They don't want to share it. Granny also covered her knowledge,but she is more willing to share it and s his train throrgh. What I thought issor as like a ruthless series of lessons and its theory and practice andGrenny's always going name. Six herbs that do x s, oorly, kidding it right,pradikating, Ye, Butshe, recognizeas the importance of passing thatknowledge I', not just a maker O, which I think, but to be a valuable educatedmember of the community, and you can't, I guess back then in that world is inthese circumstances. Is there a way of educating everyone, jut cab, Os ne theO, this Birtday, those wer the days when the Earth was really flat? Inoticed two distink roads of education and granny's was based on. I would agueright, but I think that the point I'm trying to make is that,if we're looking at a divide for whitchis and wizards, the thing theyhave in common is they are formed. They are privileged forms of education andthe thing that defines them is not the different kinds of magic that they do.Because you have said hit's blored right, you could apply bod or goatismsto either side. If you, you know fudge it a bit, whereas the it's the style ofeducation, thecind of knowledge, that's privilege- and you see this historicalywe're going to talk more about the historical stuff later on, but yourarchetypal alchemists W, who are your architypes, the wizards and fantasypeople, like John D, like Alisetercrawley, were royally endorsed,scholars, the Werfors by the crown they had massive libraries and resources andthings, whereas what we think of as the Archetopal, which were you, know, PaulWorking Class, mostly women, who had to rely on working class traditions and ifthey stepped out of line and they r fundamental weathers of the communityyeah and the moment they, the community, felt they'd been left down in Anywaye.You will go to the stake, which is fun right, so yeah. I think the the modesof education and obviously there were women in universities and there weremen in the working class. But in terms of the archetypes, it's yeah the accessto the thing sort. It determines what kind of magic you can do by definition.So- and I also think this is interesting and kind of ironic and thatprocect left school early to become a Jo, an apprentice, jounalist and thendropped out of that when hes books took off. I think actually think hegallwrites was the book where he became a full time ruder because he made enoughmoney off the sales of it. So yeah he's going the witch route. I guess alsolike Hes Lam purning of higher class education is something that obviouslywith the unseen Uni Uversity and the wizards and stuff is something heconstantly does throughout the books, and we talked about in nuncingacademicals, but it's not something he has actual like experience with it'ssomething that he sort of has contempt for from a working class perspective. Ithink, although I think he does have like five or six honorary degrees, sohe got there in the end. He blended it. He Od ar we counting them e on this.They wouldn't yeah, I'm with Gracuat yeah, no interesting thing about theeducation stuff there as and here come some more names, Gidyan harborcornanere, now Rianhar, they have a chapter called Magic, adolescence and education,Onterry Projece discuoit in the two thousand nd Leven book, supernatural,youth, the rise of the team hero in literature and popular culture, and nopoint out that Esk doesn't actually get any lessons on wizardry. She doesn'treceive a FOMOL education self. It really but bothered me she's, justwondering around the cast of cleaning stuff and trying to read someone helpd.This pollbot I mean inherent in that is that she is picking up the lessonsright, she's in the room but like she gets the honorary degree. Okay and youGOS joine the school after this, though right that it says that Ye with withinthe book, she becomes a wizard by a...

...yeah proving herself or whatever. Shegets the Honorara degree for achievement, rather than going throughthe process and taking the exams and things, and she gets the thing thatsymbolizes her as a wizard. If she gets the hat, it's not made much of in thisbook, but obviously that's the thing of the first two books, O rincword has tohave the hat, even though he can't do magic. So another thing, along with theeducation stuff, is there's an emphasis on stories and language. You weresaying, there's all the puns about the law and there's this think the audiobook narrator said Ctangle, so I'm Goin to say Q, Tagle, cuo or Tis it like an Aponon, an a cuteangle. I don't know, I thought you would have figured it out. I didn'tcare enough. Sorry. I left that Labor to you yeah. Well, he says even like agoing the Gena stuff, he says the reason, as can be a female. Is it atthe end of the book is because it hasn't been written down anywhere thatshe can't be right' ar by defense, but the idea, if it's not in words, it'snot true, there's also the whole thing. You know that books are full of wordsand they can change things and Simons. Looking for the words that will changethe world now. This is a thing authors like to do. The written word is themost powerful thing, the most important going back to the Pansa law right he'slike Oh, you can't change it or you can't change the Lawr and then, at theend, just very sort of suppishin Yo guys al. We change the law at like thelaw is just words in both in both uses of the Worg, but this is this is atheme with Pratchit, in particular the power of stories hen when we get to thesciencs of disqot books where he gets to go F on nonfiction rats like realworld project talking, not metaphols and analogies and books. He just goesoff about yeah that words and stories ar the most important thing. That'swhat separates humans from the other animals is that we are the storytellingeigt, that's how he defines ime now. This is the there's something to it andbeing able to see the world and arrange it, but that's one way of thinking, butI fall into as an academic literary PhD but yeah it's a bit Selogrand, as incoming from an author and fancy authors like to do this sort of thing, but yeah,the actual, the magic system or the wizard magic system within disworled issended around words right, there's sort of practicality, there's practicalmagic, which is abstract, magic, wizards, and that's where you getlanguage right. It's theabstracting the practical. This comes into grannyweatherwax, an MEX GIR literate right, so they can't do wish of magic justbecause they don't have the word so yeah. So there's I think, there's aquourt from the book whereasks trying to do wizom magic and she says she knewexactly what she wanted to do. It lay in front of her eyes all she wanted.She told herself was for ther to be a slight change in the way the world wasorganized, but to me like magics, this complex and Oshack thought, but if youaske me like what is magic, magic is changing the world with the power ofyour mind right, but that's this wizard magic. That's his abstract, wiz Ar Magi.Mind creates change in the world, whereas which magic would say. Well,yes, but then you have to Wal and do the thing yeah. It's also interestingthat a define a metaphor as a true dream, which I thought again was reallyinteresting playing into the idea of words shaping the world and the dreamstuff that comes in with the Dungen dimensions and things later on. That'sessentially magic to funding magic as psychosomatic thats. Someone who dreamsin Thei sleep that somethings happened and t en their arm hurts because theygot their armhurt ind their dream, that's how magic works in most fantasybooks. Yeah, so ask decides that, given this emphasis, ome words that shedesired, she ought to learn to read this reading. Business seemed to be thekey to wizofd magic, which is all about words. Wizard seem to think that nameswere the same as things that if you could change the name, you could changethe thing. At least it seems something like that. So this is, I don't want togo too much into this, but part of my animal study stuff is projudice a baseon what dirta would call Cano philogro centrism, which says that the KYcharacteristics that privilege a subject within Western society malesare privileged. Media does a privileged and people who can use language andread a privilege right logo centrism that Stara as big thing, I think that'sdeminstribly, true yeah, so this is just aligning reading of words with men,but this is earthsa right. It's also a little bit Patrickraphtis, but youdon't like that so well, my point is Patrick Othros is erse yeah yeahbecause ofhe he lifts the badgets Esto Botises, O n, the in the naming andthing now. Obviously I mean I don't think etially like when invented namesand words as magic, but I mean she's, obviously the popularriser of it withinthe sort of modern fancy, tradition and definitely sort of elaborates in termsof the details of how the names magic system works, but really readingthrough recal rigts at seem to me, like that, there are a lot of other thingsthat jump out to me as thsee things, particularly the scene with the gatewhen ask Gors to get into the EON university. Yeah wherethe wax makes funabout how they've got these these big gates and I think, there's a bit whereshe goes to bring the doorbell and there's no doorbell, and it's somystery had to solve the door N, andgrane, weather ax is being front ofthat. So thatt reminded me of you remember in the First Sa Book when gedgoes to the college: Ther's Liki Yeah, that's his true name Goti. What do youcall Inspirhok Gat Continue. Sorry, so good goes there's the whole thing abouthe has to get through the door. Why revealing his true name right? So Ithought that yeah. The comment about the doors was a explicit reference toEtcey, there's also the scene where s...

...gets trapped in the Eagle RighsparerHawk does that when he takes off as the Egon flies away, but then I couldn'tfind anything in the secondary literature that mentioned Earth Sey atall. I could only ever find that a couple of online blog saying ar some ofthis seems like earthy, but you know nothing specific, except for the onlyreview I could find from when the equal rihtes fist came o ne thousand ninehundred and eighty six, which was published in foundation. Where can findmy articles, you know the only review. I could finda Vigal rightes from back when it came out as by David Langford, who is nowone of the editors of the online science fiction, encyclopedia, so sortof the big deal in science fiction and fantasy studies, and he noted in hisreview that well, first of all, he didn't like the book very much. Hefound it less continuously and unremittingly funny as the first twodiscord novels, calling it a pleasant read which the is a wobbly butsuccessful course between an archic breakdown and taking its plot tooseriously HEU compared it to the previous discord, ofhis novel sayingthat equal rigts had less overt parody and more of aconventional plot, which was inspired by observation of fantasies, recurringmagical sexism, which even Ashal Laguin subscribes to in her artsetrology,noting esks overborring of the Hawk as a laguinnish little fable, so he'smaking parallels there. I don't know if he's picking up O on what I'm gettingat here, but when, when he's criticizing this for not being a parodyand having its taking its polity serions, this book is a parody of Ersy,and that was before I found procect speech, which he gave at Nervacan onone thousand nine hundred and eigety five. The speech is called Whi Gandolf,never married where he explains that equal write is a paroty afversty, soI'm gone to Tisone. Lo listene didn't get an response to an email from Joshthis week. Now you know why? Because I'm I'm higin. My own supply o nobecause you're busy, looking fo actly silly Mai, was looking throughall the the secondary lentiononship trying to find someone w Ho pointed out.This was life like ets and then, of course, I went to Tarry Cratchettzcollection of his own stuff and he goes yeah yeahits makeing Fune. Let's see he says, let's talk about wizerds andwitches. There is a tendency to talk of them in one breath as if they weresimply different sexual labels for the same job, which the OAD would support.It isn't true. In the fantasy world, there is no such thing as a male witchwarlocks. I hear you cry, but I'm talking here about the general tendency.There certainly isn't such a thing as a female wizard. The fantasy world, infact, is overdue for a visit from the eqal opportunities people, because inthe fantasy world magic doneby, women is usually of poor quality third ratenegative stuff, while the wizards are usually serebal, clever, powerful andwise vensure about pl quality is just done, often for bad or less powerful orless impressive episodes. Yeah, that's true. They probably wouldn't have beon.So many witches if they were like shit at it, ill ex you yeah, but you'll fuck it up good point. But then then he goes ontoanalyze Merlin as the archetypal wizard. So yeah we'll talk about melon when weget to the wizard novels, but there's some interesting things thate, becauseMellon is known as a hermit the lives in the woods right so Yeph and and it'ssome of the Lin o. We sort of aligning himself with the witch thing he's moregranny weatherwax than q tagle later on, tho, whom it's become sort ofassociated with Catholcism, because you know we go oft, ine the woods and youbeat yourself. The Birch stick three pimes a day, and so he does take onsome interesting connotations later on. But yes go on Ono, I'm not thatfamiliar with Malin and it's something were definitely going to get into withthe wizard book. So I leave it there for a bit, but I mean that's Baut. AllI had to say really was just the idea of the the woozy air and o associations,but then he points out that. Well, I one thousand nine hundred and eightyfive melon was already being replaced as the archetyp wizard by Gandolf lotof the rings, who doesn't really use magic. A fragit says it's moresuggestide than a parent, so we don't really have a working knowledge ofGandel's magic, which is obviously religious baced with talking andeverything, but I think geels definitely areovercom Mellan at thispoint is, as you go to wizardiea yeah e mentioned in the same breath still, butpeople are more like thy to think of Gandolf. That Gen off is also he's apractical guy. Like he's a warrior right, he's the original Jewl Welde.That's. Why he's so damn cool because he could do magic, but it will just hityou with his sword and instead did you like the Gandaff joke and eall rightwhich one, although Yeu the gray yeah it's just. He does beed washes his thosand dirty wood. I love it. I do have a thing in the notes about that: Yeah OASbad at laundry next, like that, was it he didn't sit on it anymore, sorr yeah,the reference to Gandop. Do you want to read it because I've been reading allthe things right but grandfriend on? Why he's going to be grandpar in thegray? If he doesn't take meter care of Hes Laundryi tell you girl. We magicianis just a black magician with a good housekeeper. We are so on the surface,its sits, the joke about how get off the grave becomes get off the whiteenand all that stuff in load of the rings. But it's possibly a reference to thestory of the white night by Eric Nicholl, which I think Isr one thousandnine hundred and sixty twro, though I might have been earlier because I thinkthat's a complete coelection, I'm dating it to there. If you remember thestoryis about a white it, he goes looking to kill a black, an Nin. Hegoes in the forest, looking to kill the...

...black night and then his clothes get sodirty from the forest that he becomes the Black Knight, so e Lanead, Ari YeahYeah. So the idea of the lohe better take care of his laundry because hebecomes the White Nih by going home and washing these clothes. So it's like thadouble reference to that as well and this story, when I was looking at up,there were a lot of references to it in like study, guides and things, so it'sobviously being taught somewhere and it's well known. So I think it's Ithink it's a tro FUC. He gets God off Andt Fa Yeah I sa now I'm thinks like awielt thing like the old school, you got white belt and then you trainreally hard. It turnds black. In the end, that's what but anyway God GoupAlice Does Morti and she will kill you Hyeah Ganoff is practical, he's notreally a scholar, so I guess Millan sort of Pai Yeah Goswell. Then now Idon't know if his replace geting off Nacessera but dumbledog Yhou go toacademic wize. Nowi think I think it's still Merlin I mean Donaldo is Merlinbut yeah he is. Does anyone know the story of Melin like I'm a fantasy andscience fiction? Scalar AD, I don't know the story of Ma. I strugle noworkout, who the point is it's so much? It's mostlyour OL history and culture. A history there's Notis doesn't really getwritten down. This is one of those Simillacra things where ged, Elfin andDouble Dor were reiterations and representations of millin that have nowreplaced the thing so that now things a e imitations of Gandolphin and Onte Dor,rather than Marland yeah, nothing to say, they're. Just an observation. Imean we're of we're twenty five years on since this. So obviously there'ssome developments set five. No thirty. Five years then H,I came out in ninety five yeah iws born thiscae, one thousand Nie hundred andeighty six yeah four years before I was born. I think I'm born when smallguards comes out. I think so figure out what came out in ninety five. So I knowI did know this the other Y, because someone mentioned it. I think it's Hog,father, maybe okay, all right so ou know my staff line is an my fani touchit nevel yeah, but yeah. So in this speech he talks about Gaolf. He talksabout mill and then he says the third archetypal wizard is ged the visird ofIrth Sy Yeah. So he says, certainly the island of work reminds meof nothing so much as a mediaeval European university or maybe amonastery. There doesn't seem to be many women around the university,although I suppose someone cleans the labatries which o yeah, there are indeed some femalepractitioners of magic around SC, but if they are not actually evil, thenthey are either misguided or treated by ged, in the same way that a highlystreet obstatrition treats a local midwife which again some implicitsexism for precet. There he's got a bad yeah and he says: Can you imagine agirl trying to get a place at the University of work or I can put itanother way? Can you imagine a female Gadoff, and this is him? He says anintroduction to this essay in the collection that you know I was givingthe speech as I was coming up with the idea for equal right. So He's gone, I'mwritten a book about a female Gandolf which sort of adds to my agement thatask just fills the male role but again looks back Orany, weatherwax yeah, thatthat does feel that yeah, if it's Inni sory well, he hads. He hats a Nartfootnote to this now or not now, because he's dead, but my name isreeniting. This E, real Terry Protcer can't come to thephone right now you weant to say why, because he's dead, that's very sad! Wea Really Sad. Hesays that, of course, if you've read the letder o see novels, you can therewomen in them, but one thousand nine hundred and eighty five that was stillto come, which yes, this is interesting, because equal rots come o one thousandnine hundred and ight six. So this is before there were women in etsa novels.I did do a quick survey of at Yeah Female female character, magic users inthe CBOOKS, so you have besides Yoano the dragon child herself. You haveAkaren, who is a dier they're like magical seemstesses, I guess actualseems to says not. DISWORLD senstesces she's lost o magical powers, and itsays in the father shore that she was a woman of Pawler, no mere witch orPorthan makeup, but a woman of art and skill using her craft for the making ofthe beautiful, a proud woman and honorable s, even though I meanobviously there's some sort of implied sexism there, but even though she's notportrayed in the father shore itself, this is a female wizard, rather than awitchwright that passage making that very clear. You've got the Dragon.Women in the short stories and you've got a bunch of of witches whor again inthe Essa books are more earen ther. They know the herbs and things and theyraised the sheep and stuff like that. Even though ged gives up being a wizardto go, be a sheephead but interestingly- and this might just be likegwimbing abi old hippy, but all the witches have plant names, good, Ivy and rose, and Ithink there's three different captors called Moss, or maybe it's through. Ino three different caracters called tose, who are all female witches, do doDelidyou, dd Dli, so just a quick adendum. After. According the episode Ifound a thousandand fifteen article by lean sinclair in the Fansy GenralMithlau, which examines the genders of witches in the historical imaginationof disquith. They see how that could be relevant weren't going to a lot ofdetail about this, but just this article does acknowledge the connectionbetween equal rights and projuts Wy, Gan I'VF, never married speech and alsoconnects it to EPC, which I hadn't...

...found any. Well though it only does so.You know in a footnote that consistently Miss Bells Gant as notGNOT, which I only bring up because they ol my sombeing petty about. Butmore importantly, the atical reminded me that the whole point of the talesfrom FC short story collection is that the University of Bork was originallyfounded by women who were written out of history by power hungry men. That'sthe revision. She does there. The six and last book in the TC series is aboutthe first woman being Letdinto, the university, which I think, we'vewotched on a little bit, but just to emphasize that any thoughts about pesrevisions to Ese, an this that that's interesting Y. I don't have much morerthan that. So have you read those books to the person an I just read the full,the foumain one I love Tahana Tahan is one of my favorite books ever and Ithink the sort of Feminius revision there is pretty good, but the I don'tknow if I'm completely satisfied bith thet. Actually it was women like itsmacks a little bit of the JK rolling. All her money was black. The whole timesort of thing. Oh Yeah Dumbledoo was gay the whole time yeah it's more thanthat, because it does actually like build up this whole history of anexplisibly acknowledged the world of SS is being run by through a Patriarcholhistory and actually goes into that. So it's not just like I yeah there werewomen there single so points to another article published in Mythwar, which Ishould really be paying. Ote attention to this time by Metalin a rolls into athousand n eight, which gives a detail t overview of the evolution of women inEarth Sea. So I won't go into that an too much detail, because people can goand read that article, which is pretty good. But the major points there thatare maybe worth pointing out is that in the first earthc novel and there's thesaying that things being weak or wicked as women's magic, which seems prettyweird coming from Laguin and that the first and I think only whichencountered in the first novel Tris to bind and Corrupt Gid. Before he'srescued a guided by the male wizard odio dead, saying that women's powersare the old pals of the earth and not for men to use. So it's a bit moreintense than maybe we were. We were giving it credit for I'm just implicit.It's very explicit in the ARC novels that Tas this hierarchy between maleand fetmale magic, going back to procect singclar, also points out thatduring the magical Jewl with cute angle, granny, weatherware users and defeatKudango using high magic when they do the transforming so she's at least as powerful as thearch chancelor, and can use wizard madget yeah like that. That is verycool. HMM, so that's something we everlooked, interestingly, in hischapter figuring, the witch in the o thousand and seventeen collection, newdirections in children's Gothic David kindof points out that an example of amale witch character is the witch king in Talkun's load of the rings yeahahead of the Masgo se yea. We actually have a mail witch character in talkenswork as well. Is he very witchy, though no bud hy is called a witch hm? I guessthat counts. So that is my Dandom that I will edit into that. Youar episodewere appropriate, so yeah, that's that sort of evenwithin Laguin who was criticized for hermail crowd, characters around thistime and then sort of goes on a feminist Har. Shortly after you red,the F like Jad, is black right e's the FA. It is black yeah racisand genderyeah, yeah geds gets black. No. There was some criticism about about Ligenand the lefthand of darkmess and saeing stuff that you know she's this greatfemnis fantasy science fiction broter, but she go ran of female fagonist yeah,at which point she turns around guys: Okay, Gors on an absolute feminist tarefor the rest of ro reading. Something about that back when I was in my likwin face that she just didn't. She had thought she was just like: Oh yeah,that had't be good to me and she gritten the you know the firstpersonwit color and then because that was grandbreaking and she goes Ih yeahwell, she's also she's, not the first Lod doing it because there's nomy,Mitcherson and stuff before but she's, the first Ike. She edited the Lor of the Rings,because her book Darove a space woman is has a lot of stuff that ended up inlefthand of darkness. But yeah I mean she's, the first big famous femalescience fiction author. So it's like unsurprising that she had to stick tosome conventions. I she didn't get in there and you know kick her way throughthe Conventions and burst in Tad, be like I'm. The gin hear she wrote goodbooks within the Conventions that challenge things one at a time and thenon she was established yeah. Then she brougts full away so forgivenes shewrats to honner. She writes the telling she only writes womenProtagonis from then on yeah, and I guess ged and th. The scholars of ofROK are your sort of academic wizards. If MIRLINS AE hermit and get AffsoWaror, then now they're, the dumble doors is there I mean there's ther datawin Jones and the Christa matchy books, St everyone that whats a name wirkedoff yeahtmorpes for double win. It's more peslevt bittecyrcle of magic, yeahtitally. Also, you have the the same stress which, in Hea d that I just readabout, she was the waving witch which sandry is syclomagic cool, so purchasedoes acknowledge that Mon witchcraft is of the Friends of the earth that prayerkind and if it has any roots at all, that they lie in the works of a formalcivil serven and pioneer naturalist, called Gerald Gardner. who was a manhe's sort of the founder of the modn wickan stuff from the early nineteenhundreds, but project discounts this and says. Well. This is just a MishoMash of herbalism Sixis, undirected...

...acotism and the Lord of the Rings,which Yes, yes, cresit, is correct, but he saysI'm not talking about the Wer real world, I'm talking about the consensusfantasy universe right. This is how MABIC is treated with in Fantasy LitriCure, which is just a beginning to be taken seriously around this time and henames. The Guin is one of the architects of this consensus universe.I ea and something interesting I thought he said, was to see theconsensus fantasy universe in detail. You need only to look at the classicaldumgeons and dragons roleplaying games. They are musacs of every fantasy story.You wirh at Vered, and I thought that was interesting because we were talkingabout the awk stereotype of cutified in the dungeons of dragons manual. So yeah,I guess the Dungeons and dragons Ise sort of the Bible of here are theStereos thatsand dumsons dragons is incred in its original form, isincredibly conservative so that takeus back to the similar Abra to see in adungeon dragons is the parady of the thing that then becomes the Mosac ofthe thing that have been ripped off and yeah yeah does Si Lettyso Yeah Projectsays this was written when eqal writes and Asquare taking shape and shortlyafter that, similar ideas about women seem to turn up in the zyt gist. Sothis is. This is interesting because in a chapter about Terri, catchit anddisgout in the two thousand, an one book alternative worlds in fantasyfiction. One of the editors Patrick Hunt says that the battle betweenwitches and wizards magic and equal rights echos the theme of Lhegwins toHanna, except that Tahano came ot, one thousand nine hundred and ninety fouryears after equal rits. So it is rather than Laguin, who echoed prochetsfeminis aversion of traditional fantasy generals. Then the other way around. Soeverything is the glit nor everything is not liguen. Everything is pracicbecause project canfest right so IAM, yeah and this's goes back to the idea of words shaping the worldright and self agrandizing fantasy writer, because project says it. I knowa large number of people who think of themselves as which is pagans anmagicians and the more realistic of them will admit that while they like tothink that they are following a tradition laid down in the well knowndawn of time, they really picked it all up from books and, yes, fantasy stories.I've come to believe thet. Fantasy fiction in all its forms has no basisis in anything in the real world. I believe the witches and wizards gettheir ideas from their reading matter. All before that from fork law fiction,invents reality Agee, that's exactly what happened. Well, yeah. It was FUClow. It was word of mouth, it was yeah, superstition really well. This is- andthis is the great line from the book- and I think we're given this line ofthe book, because it's come up like five times already in grannyweatherwack says I don't think, there's ever been a lady wizard before I ratherthink it might be against the law Loie. This is it's against the fantasytradition, yeah exactly. I think it's Funler that it's not also against thelaw. You know it's not in it. I did a bit of digging and not thatit's significant, but I I do think it is interesting. There are somehistorical precedents. TBUT. I don't think we can go as far to say the realworld actually influence fiction, but procits, not quite as original as hethinks, even even within his own world. As Penny Hill points out in her chapteron anseen univerity in the guilty of Litera Ture collection, that thecharacter Marchessa from POW is a female wizard of fifth level and she'sa character in the color of magic. So there are already female wizards indisworld. At this point, Het's got me thinking about what is the oldestepiction of a witch and IAM proposing, or obviously there were depictionsbeforehand, but the eldest recorded depiction we have left is is serse andthe Ordyssy, who is the the daughter of Hilius and Hecgotty and Hecgoty, as youpointed out, is also in the theogrony yeah yeah, and I think there may besome mention of a witch in the eter cod Gilga match. But I have to Chos I meanmy responsetohigity is hegetys, not a witch, not neer Hecodis, not a witchuntil Shakespeare right. No, she is back then, and she's talked about indfoklorn tradition as a witchi figure and heccody yeah she's got the devil,tradition. Okay, I ho I thi Theogony, not of which, as we would talk abouther, that the tradition comes fromin in the theogony she's like glorified. Sheis like Lareous Heko ty, O they pray to. So maybe something we can look at morefor Weirds, soucer yeah! What's fun about this, you know ive pougt, a Lontalk about s star for a second but secially tens men into peaks and as asther brother Indoa Pik, because I think that's Somethg tiffny aching does isthere's some pig stuff and also there's later the masquerade. There's the pigwitch Padida. So yeah you just kind of good that for me that these are it'sSert Rade, that's Wy, because I was asking myself, I'm like why, which isalways telning people into picks it as the Ode Sie Staff Thing, which beweencncame bact to in a second but yeah. It's that that's the tradition of POWERF COLriches, even the most powerful ones, is somehow lated with men and masculinityand they're always taking theway mabulinity and transforming them inthere. A threat to men, yeah, SH, she's, a temptress, she's sexually charged,and but there is this blurring of gender and and animal and human. That'sall tied up in this sort of older depiction of which is in the odyssy. Soyeah, I wanted to talk about the sort of historical president for femalewitches and things. There's estmates that twenty to forty percent of thevictims in the Soun which trials were men, so the idea that whichis are yeah,it's also in the Europenan and the...

English which Trius like a huge thunkof them wermen. Obviously, that's the difference between the what Practis,calling the consensus for fantasy universe and actual historys that, aswe've shown, men could be witches right definition, family. But, yes, I found ahistorical president for a a female wizard of sorts, so Ini, one thousandnine hundred and ninety six book. The witch in History Diane Perkis tells ofthe Butche Wich and Bonnham who's, apparently sort of a pretty well knownfigure in witchcraft stuff. So, if you're into wiches, you probablyalready know all of this, but she trained under Dr John Lamb, who is notthe VEC Vegetarian, Dr Lamb, that's ductive, ble and lamb. Dr John Lancomes two hundred years before that, and he served the George Philias, thefirst Tuke of Buckingham during the early seventeenth century, and he wasaccused of breaking an eleven year old girl in sixteen twenty seven in wassterting to death, eally Ain Moel, yeah yeah, the I went epstate as well when Iwas reading this, so the DUK got mansion, yeah, God executedlater as well, so good so yeah. She was his apprentice and claim that she'd levmuch in his service by reading his books, which helped Hor, learn his art.Again, we have the connection between the Britain word, the access to thematerials sort of determines the type of figure. You are Butidon' how myselfwas later frame for poisoning and was executed in sixt fifty three at age.Eighty foot run yeah, especially that's in IENTR and porcus claims that ewitchcraft was framed, is part of the horring operations and goes on a thingabout. This is very upsting. Well Yeah, I'm not sure. Perkus was trying toclaim that this was. You know prejudice because she's, a woman and it'swithcraft in there forit has to be sexualized, but you know she wasprobably iun on it right, yeah, but interestingle perger says the linkbetween Burnham and lamb acted to authenticate, Burtenham's power and sheestablished to heurself not as a run of the male country, cunning woman, but asa kind of female wizard, and this was much more a theatrical role than thatof a village witchal cunning woman involving authority and appearance oflearning, normally gendered mail in the early modern period so yeah. I guess wehave at least one historical president of a female wizard and he e wod, soraps the most extensive scolly investigation of witchcrafts history isby Ronald Hutton. It's called the Pagan religions of the ancient British IslesM, one thousand nine hundred and ninety one well. He says that old, Fush, iandprehistorians assume that men must have dominated partly because of theprejudices of their own society and portly, because this is true of all theagrarian societies known to history and anthropology. He acknowledges thatthere's a feminist challenge by a scolar name, Margaret Arenberg, whoacknowledges that women are were the Subserveng gender in all societies,which practice large scale animal husbandry, and that if women hadenjoyed a more equal status Onlia, they would probably have lost it as animalagriculture spread across Europe during the migniolythic yeah. I mean I putthis in here, because my interest with vegetarianism and stuff that thisgender divide, this gender prejudice, comes with the rise of animal fartomingand meedating in Western culture. So these ideas of education, logo, centricprejudice and gender prejudice and medeting proters they're all tied off,and so I thought that was interesting, but Howton tracis, the pagan traditionsback to the Neolithic Newstene Age, although other he con tested thereisn't one UNO. Five traditionis like these are a whole bunch of things thatthen become reinvented with Gardner in ther twentienth century, but he'stracing these traditions, bassing bit like early Pagans, were practicing andhe suggests that gender bending on gender blending was an essential partof traditional witchcraft, AF wizardry. Well, that's what HAPPENES TO HEP BOOD!Oh! Is that because everyone secretly trans it, don't even poke it, we're justgoing to leave that one there? What happens at homewords? It's Ta School ofWhitch, back from which wizardry it's pretty glurs like they're, just there,the same R, Co, educational and- and this is supported by this idea ofwitchcraft being associated D agender bending- is supported by historical artand artifacts, which suggest a lack of distinction with insdipiction ofnongendered or multigendered figures and thing I mean I actually got one ofthe articles looked all this up, but my partner Maddie is doing an archeologypghd, and this is something she's pointed out that I mean she doesAustralian indigenous psycheology, but even in now, you've got a lot of themythical figures by our categorization she's gone through these massivespreadsheets and trying to sort them out and there's ones where, like you,can't tell like male female that promminent figures- and this is actually supported within te, the fantasy consensus universe, because in Ertsey the magic comes fromdragons who seem to be at least genand on specific non minory yeah, thedragons or at least callison who's. The you know the head dragon is variouslyreferred to as male and female right. These great magical beings of Palodon't deal with binary gender and that's something that was brought inwhen the dragons became humans. I guess so ines, two thousand and thirteen bookpain Britain Hudton better, observes that now that modn Western coachuesitself startedg to abandon rigid gender divisions and calarities to challengeits customary sthop distinction between the animal and human and to admit tofluidity in the making and remaking of individual identity. It is ginning toperceive the same patterns in the...

...creations of the PAOLITHIC and he sartsthe exominations of INA gin ladry by Miranda. ALDHA screech is the one whosearticles I got and Loed at some of these pictures free notes, commonthemes such as an interest in shape, shifting between human and animals, sothat moteefs offeing combine the two forms and a particular significanceaccording to the number three so that yeah, so that some kinds of object,apearing and character often appear in tripl form. Here we're gone back toCERCY. Right again, we have the transformation between human and animaland gender and all of that so so serp it. I thought it was interesting, justlooking for examples in literature, there's persy showers which ar that waswho creatt a Maphroda. But interestingly, though, the witch ofAtlas is the daughter of plades who's, one of the seven daughters of Atlas. Sothe witch of Atlas was the seventh daughter of fladies. She would be theseventh daughter of a seventh daughter and would that make her witch, or witit yeah. I don't know, I'm not sure tis Os to which get but yeah Hudton saysthat there is no unified witchcraft tradition. He goes into gorrect detailabout this in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine Bok trium for theMariment I read way too much of, but I'm glad I did cause in the conclusionto this. This history of the attitudes towards richcraft and things and thecredits, Ne Thousand Nine hundred and eighty EIG, one thousand nine hundredand nety eight as a particular ly important period in the change of thepopular perception of witchcraft and he list the go fro and the pretender sunghim to her, which I was like what I don't know, that's fine. I live it in abit of it here, but you'R E E, like I don't know what that isn't here, INAit's that songs on Itheio, dater, whermy, mony comes round Mymother Wan Antino is Oonhe, also says the episode of a USSitcom called Sybil called Virgin, mother and corine, which I don't knowwhat all that's about. I would have thought like buffy or chant yeah. I wemight have been more influential like wellow, he's a witch and the whole E. Iwonder if that was sort of maybe he's Writin t is one thousand nine hundredand ninety nine, so maybe willow didn't kick in until later. But mostimportantly, thehes third example is the diskworld series. He hey there. Wego werly the the fooke sort of points out. His Hog father, rather than e thewitch novels, but he notes how project treats wicker and ritual magic asnormal and acceptable part of human life and shows a deep knowledge of bothwith some of his wise cracks about modern, pagan, witchcraft. Only aveable to be understood by insiders, despire, prartrets denial of any directknowledge of the traditions. Now I couldn't find any source for procectSAING. He didn't know anything about witchcraft and in the speech backandolfwhe says he knows a number of people who think of themselvess which, aspagans or magician so seems to me, like patch project, does mol a lot aboutwitchcraft and that's why these books do a good job of representing it. Iguess all right: What have you got about the historical role of witches,Ey somensburight? So the idea was men with good vitality like powerfulmaculine. Men had ad good stuff and lots of it and dos there are, and theystill Lisper, and that gives them power and takes away Masculan power andthere's precident in hurtcules and Umfallian miles and Venus and a fewothers. But those are the big ones and then there's a dition tradition thatquick en later on called the vibamax tradition, which is remains powerfulwomen and there's another one which means vaginitis, which, as completelyforgotten the os the Virgina Dentra yeah. That's it an torder fortryingtodoe. That's it the idea being that men feared powerful as because itwould degrade or detract from their masculidity in some way, and a lot ofthese powerful witch figures, that's how they represented in Seciouslyo isobviously one of the most famous Thi. It's funny that sers is defeated byMoli, which is a herb, so you know theres his hime matic, as defeter biaform of low magic to thinking about it. That way she had a rod and spe he stuffnoh. This got me on my Spencer train because everything is penser. Actually,I was wondering whether pratcheld had read him and if he didn't go touniversity, maybe not- and that makes me sad- I haven't found any Recordur,but I will kick my at. But if I was a betting man, I'd say he's. DefinitelyRed spensiles. Definitely read it: Okay! Well, this Lids gleens greatestcredence to what I was thinking right,...

...so it books free as a tery Quan. Youget Breda Mart, who is a Badoff as picking woman and he gets anotherbadoss. I speaking woman, but Bredamod is the big one and bredamas whole thingis she sort of is the first psychologically complex character inSpencer, like she has a full psychological landscape and she ow thecourse of that book. You know it's traditionally female ideas and ways ofthinking, afd methods with male ideas, methods, ways ar thinking and shebrings them together and the whole point of the book is a balance betweenthe two is is powenful is the most powerful you can get, but Britamin hasa spit right. It's so dic she cars a dick around. She gets men of horseswith it. It's fantastic jest, also constantly taking off their helmet andlike putting her locks over rerand. It was like fiting how beautiful she is.She defeats like Doblins and Demons Bredimon the best she's, also just asan aside the only character in Thi. The only man factor in the very quinactually learns from all of her experiences, so the Ode is Ecfolfollers a night and he leans. He lesson, but the night from the first book fitpropping up in the last book and doing the same shit and I prit him up learns.She has a spirit. She is a Yougiean Ideo. She combines all of the differentsouls and ways of thinking and she becomes an almost homaphroditic figure,and this is what led me on the Egh Caner thought, because, while we'rehere talking about Spencer, though there is a spencer, also complicatesthe divide between male and female magic and high and low magic, becausethere are examples of hinlomagic performd by both genders and bad formsof both gender. So there's Juester, who is a popish Catholic, superstitiousfigure and she has a Miter and a cup which is full of the filth of fit oneoccasions wo whatever that may be, and th there's a witch. We creates afalse borromell, basically Cani wet when Ye tought is sex on and shecreates a Haeta, which is a hemaphrodiic figure. You've got acrazer who's, a creepy inchentres who lives in the fairofflits, but then youalso have black a cunning woman, but an also some folks in the temple of ises.So an look all this up it you're interested the idea is: You've got goodand evil women of high andlond magic and then you've got good and evil men,because Marlyn and ICAMEGO are also quite similar and there's a lot of pumsin Ar Cona Arkin Mego's name, because it's arch, mage and then also archimage. So I just thinking about the divide and different types of magic.Let me back tospenceit because he's sort of the first big English CulturalStory Tower in modern history, sove got chorse before him, but then it'sSPENTEP. He fannels. All of that superstition, I think again after toalore into into the new version that we sort of Nowat as today and Spencer,rent well. That sounds awesome and I need to read that as soon as I can sobilding on. That is the idea of the seven sin or percent n son nowtraditionally in European focal they had healing, pals and second site. Soapparently, that's the thing and I knew from reading of Book Flori Spencer.That numbers are important. Seven is ampoint three and four. So seven is thenumber of perfection and the reason it is. The number of perfection is becauseI is the number of heavens o three Holy Trinity will come back to that, butalso mal male because of you know, genitarly made up or three parts. Sothree is the number of perfection or Sevenis, no wit for it. So it's threeand four. So three is heaven and Male, so the e heavenly world, so male Becaus,I prai get's associated with heaven, Howenfair and then four is earth andfemale right. So the joining of female and mail and the joining of Heaven andearth together is seven and all the numbers work out, and that is a perfectnumber. Seven inofe seven Sun I was like ais is some good shit. It's amgood shit, isn't it, but it comes back to have like this idea of nonbineryright. So the numbers are very big in book for because it's all aboutrelationships and friendships and you've got to have the perfect balancebetween the people, otherwise everything dolls apart and it'sdifficulty of concourse and all of that. But BRIEMONT is part of that as well,and it's this idea of this whole thing. She becomes this whole being and thenshe also meets artigle who become to lover and together they form the entirelike they make the Tuda bloodline, which is why it puts oimportant forSpencer and legitimizing the tuners and everything that's a whole lol of rant,but together like so, he goes op an his question. He becomes a fully formperson and theyre fully formed people are in and of themselves and they jointogether in this fusion of perfection. So that's how gon Ta fect e Spencer andthat's what lend me to Bri them on and the staff and I'm like. I is all therean s because she joins the two worlds and it's consilients, but I see yourargument and I think it has value as well. So I think it's five: it's wouldyou sait's non bonery? It is non binery. I did want to clarify when you weresaying like three is the number of men, because you got two balls and a penisyeah. Why was four women it might be like because, because because earth inHec, the wonderful wizardis, no no GAA Gon, sad yeah, who is fort elements,makes up. I think, maybe that a Foaltas yeah I like that. That's good love! ItYeah Sa everything I looked up just said: Seven is a divine number and I'mlike, but why yeah three for? I was looking at things I'm like, becauseit's yeah thet comes up all throughout genesis like there's the seven animalson the Ark ad and it's all through the Bible, seven dely Sinc en yeah, it's afacy number that comes onto Rom, so I'm...

...like is this ood just go back to likeconstant time and stuff can evene. Seven fod is another good one, a sor, aname of a terrible medal corman. Of course it is, but yeah also for is beganersacilianfor physics and then in Galin, galenic medicine and it keeps coming upand then linked with three and then I'm o yeah. I like to have a part. I didfind interesting, Gad, not Gid Gad, whose name means good luck. Is theseventh son of Jacob and Genesis and then Araly is the sevent son of Gad.There is a seven son of the seven Sonin Genesis, there's no information aboutwho he is. I thought there might have been a connection to aerial and thetempest, but there's not because that just means Arie like ar and the meaningof Araly is the light or vision of God, so that that implication is there inthe naming already a genesis so to you, go but yeah, so the traditional focarstuff that main powers I saw ascribed to it. The Healing Yep, which again itcomes back to Sevenen, seven sin healing powers and second site yeah.Traditionally it seems, like seven sons, are more in touch with nature thannatural healers, which again sort of Alins of them. With this consensus,traditional idea of which magic, rather than wizard magic right for acceptingpretchets fantasy bonary, because that's what grany weather exwells shegoes around, does the healing yeah hearing, yeah and they're in touch withthe earth? So I thought that's an another interesting contradiction there.There does seem to be some turning point where it becomes connected withthe idea that the king had the divine healing power and therefore a seen sonof the Senson if they shared that power weere in touch with Gydand, that'swhere it becomes reassociated with Heavenly Air Maile Magic Ron, hisnaturalist, a bing, but I don't want to read about that because it's way toomuch well, it leankts really isly do all the shakepar stuff, where themoment the kings out of Work Ol, the rule. You know the ruler is not whoit's bed to be. The whole world falls apart and it has to be healed becauseit's corrupted something is wrotten in the state of denlack. So over the forweird systers Shakespeare, sut right. We spend a lot of this podcast talkingabout education and access to education, which is a big theme of ECARATS thatprojects deliberately prepeting in there. But the entire book is premisedon this idea of biological determinism right escause, a wizard not becauseshe's, the an amazing student or anything it's because a wizard, becauseshe's the son of overneit son, you've written jonocological probability fo the Ookand it stood. Ask me becausemost of the stuff about you know, evlitinan psychology, biologiccaldeterminism, all about it's all. Statistics like women who have theseare more more likely to this and men who are this more or more like it'sjust statistics. All of it is statistics when we saw there's alreadya female wizard in the color of magic, but two books later we get sorcery,which is all about the eighth son of an eighth son, is a sorcerer and is goingto ruin everything. The soucer is a dangerous to which suggests that eightson of eight sons are rare occurrences and in that book it's a reason. Why,with is an Allat, have sex because they might create sorcerers? But here qdaglis an agt son of the neight son, the we as ar very Mucha Catholic, I werdefinitely insolcry yeah. I mean in this book. I think it's in Egal rights,where the reason the wizards don't have sexes, because magic is more fun yeah.That definitely becomes something throughout prachect. So Oh yeah. Sothis is another thing. I think this comes back in the Tiffany oachingnovels as well, because she is a witch ecause she's they talke about how she'sinherited it from my grandmother who was a witch, so the witchings in erbones, and it says in this book the witching was in Granny weatherwaxes own.So despite this, this gender criticism, TDI with Red Godcell production, procussubtly, will not so subtely in the premise, but in terms of grannyweatherwax, the idea of whitching Bein, a bans he's kind of saying these thingsare just genetically determined, and that goes back to my reading of. Well,S has to be a wizard because she's born that way, yeah not in the cool ladyGagat fashion, but in the sort of genetic, determined, rigid gender rolesand there's a way like we're. Thinking of it is a good thing and other peopledon't get us. You know we talk about it as a privilege thing, like oh she's,lucky to be seven times hevenside but equally well, it could be a bad thing.I wanted to point out the references to the Goming Gust. Serious Y IE found onewell there's only one in this book, but there was in all the first books.There's lots of references toyes and- and this is this- is something thatgets ironed out of his writing later, but there's a lot of the narraed orsort of making sang stuff that does't I in the world, yeah like you,breferences candalf, right yeah and he refrences Goma, gas and like wait, butthat's not yeah yeah now Goman Gastis is a fantasy series. F Gomagast is acastle. That's this weird disfigured it's the PE. I did it an essay on thisfot aeve read it yeah. Okay, have you no? I started reading it for actuallyone of my students in my first year class theye reading the city, one thatI took kept telling me, because I told him all don't write the city is acharacter. Do not write that, of course, Ewell! That's what she kept saying. Shekeep saying. No Goman gast is the one and she was described. T whe, I said.Oh, this sounds really cool and I looked it up and it's like six hundredpages of an g series, and I was like that this is never more than that right.The first one is really the only whone you need to read, and that's SARS oeverything you need to know in this castle is the definition of the sublimeINEVERKIAN. Yes, it's amazing. The...

...second one is a bit Nahty and the thirdone. I think he also gets alsimis it right and he's wriding it while he hasall Alsimas and it's just a bit of a mess and I'm pretty sure his wife fixesit up after this, the first one's really only good one and steerpie. Youlike, he is a satanic hero, he's a satanic character. They made a TV showabout it and when I was preping reading it we w I'd, read the bit and then wewatched the episode because Eav the TV show- and it's got this great creditsaying that you've got to go look at where they just go. Col, not that's myface. Well, I trid to read: Listen to the Audio Book of the the first bookfor this and I got halfway through and I just Iwan ton it I did like. What'sthe the midwife name was what's her name like God, she had a good name.It's like nanny, many slag, yeah nowhes, Lat o. The actual point I wanted tomake about Gomagast is the main guy e, the Prince Dude Titushe's not thatan eight son, but he is born on the eighth day of the eightmonth. Yeah. What's Thet, I mean you've solved the sevent problem. I think I isjust infinity, I'm trying to remember te fix of commongast. I think Aits, afunny number that never gets picked so procect chose it instead of seven butyeah. Maybe the infinity thing, because I mean you've read anything happeninglike he doesn't become a wizard writing go. He doesn't. He becomes a ShittyKing from memories. Did Pike Stein the good character anyway and theos a dodeokay looks over a ages a go, become fever dreams yeah, I'm related, but inthe research terer he jinny Weesley is the seventh weesly child, so she is atleast the seventh son Jako Rollin said an a interview that Jinny Wesley wasspecifically based onquote, that old tradition of the seventh daughter of aseventh daughter and a seven son of a seventh son, so that so that's whySheis, the seventh because she's a gifted witch like now she's good atMnee, gifted with people yeah we're not blowing any minds by saying that that'show the books are written. This is maybe this is the start of jk ro andclaiming things that aren't actually in the text. Now, of course, there wasanother book published the same year as equal rigts by Auson Scott Card calledseven son. So seven son is the first book in Car Celebrated Tales of Elbertmaker series. The first book Hav'n Sone on the locus t award fantasy award forbest fanasy devil of the year. So this is a known, influential work. It's nota fantasy like diskworld, it's sed on earth. It's an alternate history andit's essentially I've written epic fantasy. But it's not epic. It's sortof low fantasy retalling of the foundation of momonism. What is saidit's it's an interesting collection of words is what I'm saying right. Welewords can chick the world thank yeah, so Alvin the main character, whos. Theseventh son is an analogy of Jerse Smith and he is the second makeup whichis essentially a wizard he's the second maker since Jesus so thik for him yeah.So Jesus is a wizard a and he opposes the anmaker who isn'tSatan, he's sort of chaos, but you know is te Premi ot but of course, cardas AE.HOMOPHOPIC, asshole perios, linked homosexuality with Pedophelia, whileriding the end his game series, which is all about tolerating other culturesand different ways of seeting the world. I don't get it same as JK. You knowthey're just missing the pint like rejerin Dan Books, but the Albam maker series, it'sdecidedly more conservative. I mean obviously t the villains of the series.I mean I've only read the first book, but the villains of the series thatthey're sitting up in and then the red men, so not great, no B, you haven'tread this one right. This is an a Mi or situation. It's okay, it's like forwhat it is for a weird Moman book, like he's a good storyteller, but it's notparticularly ingis Momen Bu, I mean currentzenicide, that's the the best inthis gamebook. I think, which is all about again tolerating people who aredifferent from you yeah. This book has some interesting paallous with equalrights werdly. It has kind of a strange feminist stangle to it it's dedicatedto cards, daughter, amy, Jennese card and in the dedication he says. Whoknows all the magic she will ever need so very, very similar to es they emilyJees Card is an audio book narrator and a stage Japtor so still int a Tlat forourself. I Guess Yeah Yeah and the sort of the twist of thefirst book is that the real hero is not Elvin because he's sort of young andnaive, but it's the character, Peggy Gesta, who is a five year old torch,which is the serieus word for like a kind of psychic who protects Alvanduring his youcheses, her gifts to ensure he survive so that he can be themexbcause f. The book is about the the anmakers trying to get rid of him sothat the Second Age Cart Im right. So it's revealed a the end of the bookthat she's sort of been influencing things with her gifts to protect him.His entire life. I've just realized now, an after your Spencer thing with theSeond Tome. The sevent son is that so Alvin maker has the healing magic andthe being in touch with ATR bigest or is a she's a precocg. So this is thethe two aspects of the Seventh Sun Magic, the Nis and the healing, and themale and the female and fe of them. Together. You need the balance. We notthe manbinary plans. I doubt CARV was going for a nonbonary angle there,given that he does not like the lbgt community but then again and his gameis all about tolerating other cultures. There's also a line that stuck out tome where it says Yeah Peggy decides...

...she's done with crying for the rest oftheur life. REMADA MEOF indisqualed ask decides that Oi. She doesn't decide.Tit says, ask didn't cry a lot because it never seemed to achieve much and hisit out to me again is like she's yeah. There's some active he's gender in herspecific way that he's trying to gender her one of Alvin's sisters. Elenor isalso which who has to hide her magic from her husband, whose name isliterally armor of God. That is his name, and he describes meeting his wife.He says she started to Scat a Spimin on my floor and say somekind of hime. Ishouted for her to stop it and get out of my house. I careo the Bible where itsays you shall not suffer, which tolive and for right testing half hour. Youmay be sure, like she's portrayed as a victim right cards putting the stuff inthere like these sort of feminis sum pladoand. I forgets developed over therest of the books but something's going on there as far as the shall not sufferwhich to live. That's exodus, two thousand an eighteen, just part of asection on laws of human relations. That seems like a bad one go on! Well,yes, Oen! This is again: Where does the Gende Binar an prejudice come from, butmy my fancy study bitle suggest that the word which his related to Wewit,which means to know TTo, know that every time Jo Shesus his Bible, he saysexactly that. I do because I, like my fanacy Bible, it served me well. Italso distances me from being a weird Bible Guy, because maddy got veryconcerned that I had a buddy Christ in my car and the schollet. She doesn'tlike it when when she comes into my office and I', but the Bible out,that's fair. I went to a Katic high school and afterwards I perged allbigles from from everywhere and now I need a Bible to use and I've got to usethe Internet. Well, I'm going through it and I'm like yeah, but I'm lookingfor wizards like and I need it for Satan like the wholerea is look up. Satan stuff yeah, the the NOTOT has in the which is rate tothe word, witland also characterizes which, as as pharmacists, who wereconsidering Poisonos, which was interesting to me, because thefanaccist Tis into the idea of the healing stuff and the female wizardlady got friend as a poisoner. I don't know comincidences yeah, yeah yea. Imean Pumsis of people who know how the hopes and the you know the stuff workstogether. Yeah I did try and see if there were some kind of you know,hidden, meaning to don't suffer which to live. There's, not it literally justmeans, kill people tatthere's, nothing to thet, there's, no ambiguity but back to to card there's. Also, thistheme of the power of Woords, so one of the characters tells a story about howFenjamin Franklin was the greatest American wizard who pulled lightningout of the sky and made Americans by using the word in these letters andwriting. It's actually sounds crazy and then it's sort of done pretty well theidea that he invented America not by putting a boundary around it, but bypopularizing he were American. o people started to identify as Americans. Theyalso say he wasn't an actual wizard. He used science and stuff to do thelightning so adverties in with the witch stuff. Yes, it takes a shot atuniversity. He says he just makes a reference that they're not likely toteach about magic and university, which is I just thought, was interesting. Thecomparison to equal rates comes out the same year and is all about going touniversity, Tola, MOGIC and back to Spencer, again the audiobook version ofAusin Scott Card, even some that I was listening to. U End with an author'snote that you can't get in in words anywhere where he talks about how thebook in the whole series was inspired by fencers Farry, Queen Hen. He missedthe point forgo bfell, yes, and I don't think the plot was inspired like hejust says he read the Fairy Queen and really liked it and wanted to writepoetry, and so that's how he got started this book startef as an epicpoem because, like all fansy others, he wanted to write the great Americanmythology sort of a fair queen for America and that's how the book gotstarted and then it became a novel. So it's more an inspiration rather than ainfluence. I guess there's any of the stuff. I've talked about here: JobDenny, Spencer, stuff, for you. Is it just a I'm just disappointed that? That's whathappened? You know, that's! What spencers influence got US Moman book isalso kind of cheating to go. I'm going to write the great American mythology,but I'm just going to steal momonism, like that's already a thing, but thereor they've already done it. There's a church you're part of it.What do you wat Yo but, more importantly, the book, sevenSOM Walson Scott Card. Inspired the Semithine made an album semen, sonofthe, seven sin: How is that more important? But I well it's far moreculturally reler than influential than wals is Gott cards es and it's one oflike the three or four best I may num. So the other literary atitecturalreference we haven't talked about is HP lovecraft with the dungeon dimensionsat the end of the book, although as much as his is explicitly lovecraftand,this is also earthcy right at the end of the Father Shore. He goes into theOterbel, just every fancy nefer ever they descend into something and theycome back from Ts. Alifigits er, it's an Neis, it's everyone, butparticularly with the Earth C parllels. This is how books, one and three ofErty end as well, with going into the other world to fight the Dunge ofdimension creatures, essentially but peratits playing on the lovecraft stuff.He describes the ceatures from Dunger...

...demensions as having a Ringa faces thatnot even a necrifie could love. That was a stand out line for me that tookme back, I have to say dat. I thoughti'm like what couldn't exfiles love andhe's already done a bit of this in the color of magic. Thefirst book Yerh and there's is a whole lovecafe Seeng in that first book,which we'll talk about again when we get to it. So they appear again herethe creatures from the Dungeons and mentions we get introduced to BellShamara Catholagan and the insider, the hideous old dark gods of the NecroTeladnomicon, the book known to certain Matadepps by its true name of LibaPegenarium forvelum. He says they're always ready to steal a slumbering mindwhich again ties into lovecraft dreamlands stuff, like that alsoSpencer, very Queini, set in dreamland right. I also just wanted to know that,because they talk about magic being the medaphor making dreams real, they steel,the dreams, sycal rits, is dedicated to Neo Gayman, who learned us the lastsurvirving Copay of the Lega pagenarum for Velum. I think it translates as theyellow pages or something that it's the phone book of the dead is the jerk Aoun.The NECO tellanoma come there, which is a running joke between Damon andprechect, an their friends. It appears again in good ormens, which is the book.They wrote together and game and Sanman, but there's an extra Jork here that Ididn't get the loccrafty and elder gods wee getting introduced to our Belshameroff he's an obvious Parotia Bell: Sagaff from roberdy Howard stored, thegods of Belsegot. Although werly Bal sgothi is not a god is a place, that'sthe dead kingdom were actually Golgeroth is the chief guy. Now theinsider is an obvious party of the outsider, which is it ye love, cras, storid, but then ofcourse, thereis Thowgan, who I thought might have been a reference rather thanto Catola to Kathuga whos is like fireball gone, but but no it's just ajerk about call again usink. They love it. They love which cuk it yeah withthe tole telephone book of the dead, but like I realized that, as I wasriding the notes like yeah, it's this fiable reference of this book. I waslike to joke about telephones, never mind. Sorry Hill in herotical talks about theFELIC imegery of the staff during he the battle at the end of the book abouthow it changes from a doll red into a painful violet and then collapses andshrinks until it looks as potent as a nice piece of kindling, which is veryamazing, but on the Wicki. It claims that when he received the artwork fromJos, Kit yen died yet con ontwer, the telephone right now, unless why can'tJosh Kireby come to the phone right now? Rigt because he's dead, but if he hadthe Toleforin Book of the Dead Heyoe on the WICKI claims, the win projectreceives the atwork from Kebby. He was surprised by how it's ubliminanlyreflected the furdy and overturns of the book, and I've got the big pictureup on the screen here. Oh my God, yeah. It's part of a burnstick but yeah. Thefronttat looks like an ob shot dos, which is bui AAA nob on the end thathas to be delivered right. I don't know man here' probably put some indricatedetail on there. We don't put much stuck in fraid these days, Ori, not thefirt thing, but he the fellik imagery, because I read that and I went Ah, Inewr notice that and I went and got my book. My Oh shit, I think what throwsit over is that the end of the staff is thicker than the back of the staff yeaha D and well, I think the veins really do it. Athouh Sual, do it o say in thebook that it has. It has carving. So there is some, but the the stuff isexploding in a stream of white stars, so yeah ther's WHA. I Don' know man yeso the book ends and they talk about how every everything's come full circleand they're going to let women into Unseng University as soon as they get.The plunning sided out now. Hell claims that this is a historical excuse usedto delay the genner advancement in universities and things. I couldn'tfind anything about it because if you, Google, plumbing sort ed out sexism,you just get all these horrble stories about how bad female plumbrs have beentreated but usin to a fignize. This yeah yeah. I hea that a fair bit likeyeah plumbing being used as a way to discribinate or we don't have Thofunning for it that kind of thing yeah, where io no ofit right. I've neverheard it. So if, as a plumber though, so I n't know, if I'm saying what Idon't like the ending, I guess- maybe I don't like this. This might be the onething about thet book I don't like because, like this is put in the bookas a joke. So if your don't now the deference you just read it and that'slike pretchipping witty and being about how these wizards don't know howthey're so smart, but they can't work out the plumbing or something. But ifit is just a reference to sexism, black he's just saying something: sexist toGrany, wheatherworks yeah, so none the wizards have wot their lesson orsomething there's like there's no twist on it. That's just the thing yeah, Ithink it's practic Trinaly funny and it just kind of flop yeah. This might bethe same thing about how he's making references in the Gandaf speech aboutwhatever it was M, yeah wals. So at the end of the book, there's the wholescene with the intelligent ants, which is interesting because in the laterwizard books you have the the hex computer, which has the Anti in sin.You read that Far Shi've. No, I don't remembright. They have a whole room solater in the wizard books, Pon, the...

...steens and stuff, as they get like sortof more paroty of science rather than universities, they have a whole room.That's this big apparatus that it's essentially it's the magic computer.It's called hecks and it's powered by an antell inside, which is the jokeabout Intalin side, which is something no one gets anymore. I thought it wasInterestin because we have the intelligent magical Antsin in thisearly book, but and this sort of the metaphor about how the ants they havethe the knowledge of iikingivity yeah the immortality andthey build this big monument, everything and then they get washedaway. This idea about how things are washed away and Researt, and it'scrazing with the plumbing thing about her thes progress and the Gosh towearor something, but there's also, I says graty may or may not have beeninterested to learn that one of the ants was drum Billett, who had finallydecided to give life another chance. This is the wizard who gives as thestuff at the start of the book which Di these aunts only have this knowledge,because a smart male was reincarnated into them. Am I thinking about it tomuch? I think in that think about kinet, maybe well. This is sort of like theidea that escets born into magic at the start of the book and then Trumbilligets born into magic of the Ante Tissi yeah. Maybe it's just pretert beingfunny. I don't know O et's seemn to the book, that I don't really like that.Much sorry with all these contradictions Penny Hill, whenpointing out that there are female wizards in color of magic and that inthe later novels, granny weatherwax, who 's now getting students from theUnseen University and Talking About Women Studies and things so she's neverbeen to Ansen University or I'm F, O my porpenaur life and es just seems todisappear and never be referenced again until I think it's yeah the last of apublished book in the series. So she takes this to imply that he call rightsto sit in a parallel universe to the subsequent novels and again, with thecontradictions between sorcery and the eight son of the eighth something she'ssuggesting that initially the series every book is set in a differentdiskworld. There is no Continu it, although the first two books lead in toeach other. So it's it's a bit Wacky, but at the same time I mean yeah. Itseems to me like granny. WEATHERBAX is just being a Tuce or project didn'tcare yeah. I feel like it's practic ast big, a bit carless all thes the wholething of the metaphor about the progress being washed away. They avebeen changed ill say that again, wete back to Spencer, the nights don't learn,but there's the thing that makes it or stick is pracois obsessed with paralleluniverses, okay, his science fiction series with steam back so long earth isliterally about their infinite. Parallel universis that you can stepinto right. You can go left a rigt to different universes. The sience ofdiskworld is all about hallel universes, the interview with him I quoted in theunseen acdemical podcast. He talks about how FASCINATEDG is with the ideaof parltly universas. Obviously, disquot itself is a parallel universe.The parallel universe thing is referenced in equal rigdts itself. Ssays that Simon seemed to be saying that there was lots of worlds allnearly the same and all sort of occupying the same place, but allseparated with the tickness of a shadow so t a everything that ever couldhappen would have some way to happen in you know, maybe there's something tothat, although I haven't found anything to justify that precheck was doing thatdeliberately, it seems like. Maybe it's given him too much credit forinconsistencies. That's the end of theur discussion of the flop, so justsome miscellaneous stuff that doesn't really fit me. Where that I looked upthere's the bit about what's the collective now n for wizards and Wer inthe Gandolf speech, prochept says: Wizards tend to exist in orders, sohe's already answered his ten question, but I went down a real rabbit hole withthis allise. I go through like four different dictionaries of collectivenouns and I found nothing and I couldn't find anything. The two thatseemed to keep coming up online as collected nounceer wizards were circleand argument was a common online responsenow that checks out a circle ofwizards yeah. But I was trying to work out were because the argument was sodominant, but I couldn't find any like. I'm like this is a reference tosomething. This is a joke right and then the only reference I could fi toit was in the second book of the rivers of London series where the characterdtr Walle. I don't know what the context is says that you call Wecowisits an argument of wizards. Now I don't know anything about Thi series,but you've read it year and you heard Ed it. No. I read like three of themand I was like no more it's just very mal gazy like it's on the nose, mal gaI really tried to like it because it was so popular. I think I did an audiobook first time and E. I tried to read it again and I try to read it again. Igot to thre and I was just like I can't Aven't heard of these books. Obviouslyyou have. Are they like sort of influential enough to popularize thatidea of the argument? Myeah? No, I didn't think so. So I got nothing forthe. Where the argument of wizards comes from also what is the contextbecause I went down a Rabirhole looking for a word to describe a thing. Thatsounds like the thing it describes, which I'm sure is alone from from equalrights, but I didn't write down what it was and in that Apan? Well, that's hethat's the sound itself. That's like Bang Right, whereas if you called I get,I don't probably because we were just taking the Bestno bedbox like what itis. Yeah, the Oh! Well, that's yeah, that's interesting! Now more that thesoundid invokes the thing. So the one that's jumping into my mind right now,which maybe just because we woere just talk about isphelic like Felic, soundslike a penus, yeah kind of sounds like cat. You said it, I think. Maybe it was the dungeondimensions that they look like what they sound. I don't know, but whateverthe context the wordo found is a funacy cool forineseen, which s the oxhordEnglish dictionary, defines as a...

...phoname or a group of phoe names havingrecognizable semantic associations as a result of appearing in a number ofwords of similar meanings. So that's not quite it that's saying where, ifyou have something like bed head dead lead all of those things like aresimilar and n. The sand is applied to similar things, but in the MariamWebster Dictionary of Linguistics. It says that it's a common feature of asound occurring in a group of symbolic words and points to one thousandninehundred and twenty nine experiment by Edward Sefhe, in which sefface subjectswere asked to match nonsense words with small and large versions of the sameobject. The subjects tended to match words with a higher vow with similarsounds to small objects and with low vow, sounds to larger objects, so theassociations with sound where the way things appear so that seemd close towhat they're trying to describe. But I don't know why we're trying to describeit so yeah. I think that's the end of a thing were there any other jokes orthings that I'm stood out to you, and this is pan. He Brahalana at'itis a good one, foraer that reallybecause that's one of the ones I sort of Rolle my eyes at work, because I ethat's just like an English street joke. I just love it when he snicks those inbecause I read over it, and I was like Wel so is that your favorite joke in the inthe book? Oh favorite, joke? No, no so mine was win. Branny says she's opposedto book son, strict moral grounds SA. She has heard that many of them werewritten by dead people and therefore it stoo to reason. Reading them would beas bad as Necromasi at is bebeautiful logic yeah. I did like that one. Someother Jeks that slid out to me is the title Ya Ats. I just, I just thinkthat's good. I did like ideas below your station and getting that might bea can Bot, but I was like all good one, but my favorite chok, which is a dumbpan, is when, as looks to the staff for advice- and it just says, the staffregarded her wod'nly hat ut. That was, I got ten minutes out of that yeah. Ilauge that loder that one yeah I a just like. Oh did it whill we're here the other one thatstood up to me. AF silly ones was escos you man, it's my destiny and grannyshrug and were clar. That's all for this episode of UNTINEacademicals therll be another one along in a month. But if you can't wait untilthen, you can sugn up to our patron hage and get all the episodes of fullmonth in advance, along with any bernus episodes or specials that in I'm doing,if you're after more of US Alice Hose Heron podcast of the Devil's Party,which traces the development of the SOTANIC era throughout romantic andGothic literature, and you can find me reciting the pots of Hollen edest topeople who are too afraid to watch them themselves over on the Skaty carsthinks to a bibly other fe. For today's show, along with the fully reference toFootno, the transcript should be available in the episode description,thanks for listening and stay change for some amusing auttaks. Looking up a nort below that you wantto you want me to read. I think we should actually do a adeepgive on this for the weed sisters, podcast, where it will be more relevant,but as a bit of a Teeser, which is a weird turn of phrase toyer. I have written down. What is thetraditional interpretation of the witches flying around on Brirdsticksmyth and then in brackets, have written stuff about which is rubbingholisinegenic inments on to broom sticks to Ingist it vaginally it's dangerous to flare on or a broomstreak, with no pats on Youre ap hi people can see you we Han sgirt photosalso just don't like splinters. All of this should be saved R FOR WEIRDSYSTEMI I'll have other problems with it by then. Okay or maybe maybe illcome out. You like you, T's cool. Just me I'll give a Gur. I don't know man Lin br. I've got birbsit just dont ov the other requiredap Wybemarkd, Neteyo gonna say it likeyou're angry you Gonaran, I'm gonna find which Polish death metal band iscalled Vibrema indeatethes always, and it is noonecall for Jina Dente. No, but there's the horror movie teeth. Yea II thereisn't there isn't a dethnitl band called Vimin Act, so I think there's anopening we should get on it. We do a two piece power violence thing, butthere is a van called Virgina Dentata they're from Indonesia, but also Iwould like to you I' E. I looking up the the VIBOR MAK on Wikipedia andstuff and there's a lot of pictures there that are that are very intriguing,were, of course, recording this, while the reseneval eight tallady discoursesat an all time high. But can I get you to do a google? Can you go venom,prison, animous, alright and then prisoner, a death, mital band, they're,a feminist death, metal band, and this is the cover of their first album. Thisis Kam to Mi when I saw all the fiber maca pictures that yeah yeah, becauseit's the paintig of Judis an well that is a bunch of women who have captured arapis and ripped off his gym. I tors and our feet force feeding it to him. Isupport theire. Endeavors...

...butthat comes from the story of Judath,yes sure Wek this I this particular artist. This styl is very popular inout death. Alon Ak the moment the thick blood like Thanit, they of taken it.You want to Lei force if you want to look up. What's this second albumcalled the second one's, pretty nasty, naspe yeah. I can't think what it'scalled EIS called SEMSARA. I promise wo'll getback to Spencer. You don't have to look at the sentar one, it's not relevant,but it is. It is pretty nasty if Yeu not really sho the other one like therewas obviously like a thamatic sort of sh. She Yep they ar spotes eggs spotersacks. Well,that's true! That's Rospentary as well I'll. Tell me how that's from Spencer,okay, so ook, one of the fair Qane. The first thing that happens. Is they meetera, which is a dragon lady who's like constantly giving birth to thesecreatures? Bri Hich is just sort of represented ut Sein and how it gives,both with self and Yeah B, t the idea of a woman giving verto cords of EvolBabis of some description. Ell, that's also hen. The theoggony, like you, weretalking about a kidner before a Kitenis, the name of one of the devils. That'sthe daughter of whoever they evel God is Gogoth is 't a black one of Vam BagorgaAthins, but that's a lot of the rings reference, although no waits an Englishsymphonic, Fot mal band, that's belt Sagot Tho, not Gogo, like an eneny slag comes out, she'sGoinna de Spunk, your bowls.

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