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7A – Carpe Jugulum - Part 1

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Episode 7A of Unseen Academicals, discussing Carpe Jugulum and exploring Pratchett's subversion of the triple goddess, magpie rhymes, Gothic landscapes, modernisation, notions of progress, "quilted" signifiers and more!

We were going to do a deep dive in to the history of the vampire a a literary type in this episode as well, but we haven't had time to record it yet and I think there's enough in this first part for i to be its own episode, so all the vampire stuff will come in parts 2 and 3!

Be. I say the introduction to this episode that we're going to talk about a bunch of things and then also talk about the history of vampires as a literary type. We didn't get around to recording that second part yet, so that's going to be shunted to the second pub which will be all vampire focus. Might still end up being split into two different episodes. We'll see how that goes. But yes, ignore anything I say and introduction about US talking about Vampires in this episode. We sort of like the words and ladies episode. We're talking about everything else in this part and then in the later parts we're going to go in real deep on vampires. Also, sorry for the patchy audio quality. The in terms of actual sound I don't think it's too bad, but it has been stitched together eagle style from two different recordings and I've had to go in and cut bits and and yeah about try and balance at all. So I think it's okay. But yes, compromised recording situations and time and everything means that this doesn't quite sound as good nor contain as much as I wanted it too. But here it is. Our patrons have had this episode for a week now. I think in the UTRO, it still says you get it a month in advance. Were thinking about retooling that. It's probably going to be a week in advance from now on. But yes, if you do want to get these episodes earlier and get the second Parti soon as it comes out, to sign up their patreoncom Dr Prometheus pod, or otherwise wait until we have time to do it all. I guess. Hopefully we'll be able to record it and have it out soon, but we'll see how we go. Anyway, enjoy the show. What's this glove? It's this glorld. What analysis? Yeah, so I'm Josh, I'm Alice and we are the unseen academicals and today we are back to talk about the final which is book, the six book in which is well, there's the tiffany agging ones, but we're going to do them in four years. Yeah, we're going to do them right at the air. This is the final of the like granning, weather, Wax Matogrant, although she's not really unit. Well, she's what she will have the last one, but that the tanks before they become the tiffany aking ones. The twenty third book in the Disclod series, overalls, about halfway through the series at this point. Yes, our CARPA jugguline, we're in the lunker witches must have been their kingdom from a malicious family of Upperbaldi and vampires, while in the midst of multiple identity crisis. And in this episode we are going to use the book to explore the concept of the triple goddess, which will be revisiting magpies, landscapes, concepts of modernization and progress and the history of the vampire has a literary type, among other things, Alice, in honor of the ruple's drag race recap podcast for the final time in the witches series, would you please name some number of plays that she like and some number of things that you did not about Carba Juggulin okay, okay, no, no, I'm on the spot. Yeah, I have just sprung this on Alice because we're in the middle of the power act. I have no electricity. Sign shelter has been in my house all day while I've been working. I left my microphone at home. Hence the early, unseen academical sound quality. Are we're going back to a year ago. Okay, two things I liked. I likedgle okay, yeah, loud, it goes fun. I always liked rebot and he was back and it was funny. Yeah, can I just say it was funny. Yes, best on anny was good. Grant, that's good. I think that is the standout funny one in this. All her comments about what's his name votes the priest. Yeah, I did like that. I like doats. What didn't? I like. HMM, they like we're going to get into it when we talk about Byron. Stuff is in like I liked it, but it wasn't Byron enough, you know, like do more. I liked it. Okay, so you just like the book? Think so? I think I just liked this. This is good, especially after last week. Yeah, last it was all how we like, roughly compared to the other books, because this is my favorite all really. Yeah, I still like obviously, which is abroad. That was very fun, and Law Than Ladies is very fun, but this was my favorite book to read. Like I was telling people I was busy so I could read the book. Right. Yeah, that's all right. Yeah, okay, because, yeah, this is my partner, Maddie's favorite disc one, which is every time I asked her likewise, it's just like, because Bat Pires are cool. That pines uncle, yea, as well as I'm discovering, just as being on an awakening. Yeah, we'll get there, but it's one that's yeah, it's never really stuck with me. I've never disliked it. Well, actually, I did dislike when I did the big like reread, like I was saying, I went through them all for this I really didn't like this book. Or initially when I reread it. The thing I was going to say. The one thing I like about this book is the first half of the book and those one thing I don't like about this book is the second parts. There that's fair, and I was better right. But then I did reread it, like in between when we did masquerade in this one now, and I really liked it the second time, which is because I've gone done all this vampire research and I'm getting a bit more of a take, but also just some of the problems I thought I had with it the first time Wern't as much. I think I wasn't really engaging with it properly the first time. For me it's probably still, you know, midway. This is on the laws and, ladies and and equal rights would be the two for me, and then this is probably in the middle with which is abroad. Okay, yeah, but yeah, I think it's cool. I think there's some cool vampire stuff going on, as we will get to...

...a link. As for specific things I liked and don't like about the book, I have one thing I liked and even though, yes, I have said I like this book overall in terms of picking things, there's some little things about it. It's like a little yeah, I have one thing I want. That the called the knack. Mcfeegal, I. Yes, but one thing that I really like about this book is Granny's crisis of confidence. Yeah, I love seeing like the bit at the start when she's all annoyed because they didn't invite her to the wedding. Nun, she's but that those very relatable. Yeah, and and storming off to be like fine, if they aren't doing me was very josh actually, and I think about it. Yeah, yes, what we've discovered is that granny as a messy bitch who lives for drama. Sorry, yes, I really like that as the premise. I don't know if they quite or they pratchett quite nails the resolution on that, but all the granny stuff up until they find her lying in the cave. I think is like pretty good, a pretty yet good character development stuff. As for now, I have a longer list of things I don't I dislike, but they're not like book breaking things that just like little things are I'm like, I don't know about that. That's here because you've read it six times and I've read at one this one year, three or four in the last week and a half, folks. So you have read I have not read six times last time. I've read it once in the last week. It okay, yeah, one of the things that are like the magpies and I don't get it. It's annoying. It's just seems like something that I don't have all downe there. Okay, Yep, I think it's I think it's an English thing that even then I'm not sure when it's sorry. Another thing I don't like is, which we already mentioned, the NACK mcfeegal really will only because I don't get them. Well, they're Scottish, yeah, but they become like a whole thing in the the tiffany aching books. Right, yeah, thank and they work really well there. So it's not that I don't like them. But it's that they don't really belong in this book. Going back to it after having done that would have made more sense to just introduce them there, because they're from this other place and they're and their characterization in this book is very different from their characterization in the tiffany aching books, that they're different clans. And this is like project ruts that book right to the wee free men, and that we free man is two thousand and three. This book is nineteen. I didn't say the start. I think this book is one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven. Okay, is that right? No, one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight. So yeah, like five years later, like obviously had this idea and he put him in next. You didn't know he was going to write this other book later. But I just think because they went on to be such a big part of the tiffany aching series, they don't really work here and they do seem to be just like this weird minor side plot that I don't really know what they're doing there. HMM. I kind of just like the sidelining of nanny and Margret and Agnes. Yeah, terms of it does. It's this is meant to be. I said, I like the premise about grannies clusses of confidence, but then it does just become about granny saved in the day. It sort of undermines that. Yeah, and like Nanny Margarete Magnus, all get sent off to a different kingdom to not deal with lunker anymore. So I sort of I didn't like that. And one thing I thought I disliked that I come around on is initially didn't like that there was no green boat. But he was there, right, but he wasn't here is the govern isn't. So I like that. In the cofferent, but he's like I'll be he because why don't you have Grebo there? Yeah, he's been a character in the last few books. or he wasn't in walls and ladies, but he was in de Mascarady, was a huge part of masquerade and also in which was abroad. He kills a vampire. Yeah, yeah, it's the MAPI right. So I'm like, hang on, the vampires are coming, let's go get our vampire eating cat and said it lose, and he's just not in the story. Maybe he's playing a long game. Oh, yes, but then on the on the reread, I oh, he's been sleeping in the coffin the entire time and kills the vampire. So I thought, yeah, it was a good way of having Greebo not there. Yeah, so that's what I kind of like. That's what we think about it. Less you have anything more to add in the General Discussion Party. It's good and we're not the other ones that't like it, because this is the third which is book that Drown Butler gives five out of five in his pocket guide. You would say, well deserved in this case. Yeah, I don't. I don't think it's a five. About five? Well, just because of that, like the sidelining of nanny and mcgrat and stuff, I don't think it's quite there. I think on first reading I would have given it a three and on second reading for maybe four and a half. Yes, that's where I'd go. Yeah, but let's say gives a five out of five and he says that not since small cards or lords and ladies has Pratchett dealt with such palpable evil and evil which blurs the edges of what is seen as moral, and I think that's that's fair. That the vampires are pretty delicious villains. We do have the werewolves who show up in the fifth the fifth elephant, which is quite similar to this book and I think it's only a few later. But they're just sort of what's word like, sociopathic, a moral? Yes, the Vampires, I think, are quite immoral. Yes, that make sure. So I would say, yeah, these are maybe apart from the the elves in Lords and ladies, and I would say not until the cunning man and I shall wear mid night, fifteen books later, does Pratchett really hit upon such an evil villain again. Other reviews were generally positive. There was nothing w worth writing about them. They...

...were just like, yeah, this is a good book. I don't know for if I'm going to be keep doing the critical reception stuff because it's only just not that much interesting. To say sorry, it's like this was included in lots of books on Vampires, like is this part of the not at all. Right, this whole thing that this is where you come in. Will get his article, so I know do what I'm it down, but I have so sort of forged a head without saying what we're going to do here. This is going to be be a two part if we're lucky but yeah, potentially a three part although well, okay, so the first part that we're doing right now, which is also going to be a two part of a one part of because I've other written half of it, because I don't have any power here. We're going to talk about some general things in the book and then go into the history of vampires as a literary type and their origin in then the literary tradition and development there. Then, for the second part, we're going in, because I've read all the vampire books, all of them, at least sixty, and we are going to sort of break down a different tropes and see how they have changed. So things like garlic and sunlight and stuff like that, the specific treatments of things. That will be an entire second episode that we'll go through. So we're not really going to talk about the vampire things. I'm thinking about it as vampires as a literary type and Vampires and Sin ontological type, if I can use my big words. So yes, what how vampires have been written and what vampires are there? The two episodes. Then there will perhaps be a third episode that it might be a quasi bonus episode about Vegetarian Vampires, which aren't really in this book but are enough that I can go off about them, because this is something that has been bubbling away in my mind for a while. And we also may have a special guest for that one. I'm not sure we'll work that out really. So this will probably see us through to the end of the year and we'll do a wrap up episode and then start with the death books in the New Year, because I was now are busy, so even I'm working multiple jobs at this for yeah, team your question as to do vampire does this show up in in Vampire critical discussion? So yes, I've spent the last couple of months reading all the vampire books, watching all the vampire movies and reading all the vampire scholarships. Sell into blood. Right now I have not seen carpet juggling mentioned in a single work of secondary vampire criticism. Interesting, not even as all there's this book as masquerade and I actually must go get mentioned, perhaps like genre projudice and things like that, or people just don't know it's there, or people don't people who are doing that don't necessarily retract it, or what I think the the vampire thing, and we will get to this more in welldeer than this episode. Eventually, when I write it, that vampire scholarship is interested in like these different phases and there's like the the nineheend century stuff, the byronic stuff, the origins and everything, and then you get like dracular stuff and how that's played with in the twenty century and then it becomes this young adult moving into a romantic sort of thing, where we're right now. And they are the different phases and COUPA JELM doesn't really fit into any of those neatly. Because another thing that's kind of weird about carpet Jugglin. There are a few other examples, but most vampire fiction is set in the real world. Right. It's urban fantasy, whereas carpet juggulum is an example of vampires in a fantasy world, which is quick like still is a thing, but people tend not to talk about as much. Well, it's not as much of a thing as you think, or it definitely wasn't. All the little write as a teenager, right, but that was probably all written after Carpe jugguling sunshine by Robin McKinley from two thousand and three, which is the next on my list to read. I haven't actually read this yet. That is a fantasy one that seems to have a bit of a reputation. But yes, normally it's a the vampires are set in the real world. So it's the whole trope like as we're going to talk about, like Dracula, is, what if the old world came to the new world? Yes, so when you take that theme out of it, it's quite a different mode of things that it's dealing with. But also so Pratchett doesn't really fit into any of these categories neatly and is also like right on the cusp of the end of the twenty century sympathetic vampire thing in the beginning of the modern romantic beloved vampire. I think so. I think it's a matter of timing and fantasy genre stuff. Yeah, so there's a number of reason was why Pratchett doesn't really neatly fit in. But again, I haven't even mentioned it. Like Lords and ladies can get a whole lot of critical attention, but there were still like Oh, and here when we're talking about midsummer night street, and they would mention Pratchett wrote a book about it. Yeah, not a single mention of carpet juggling in Vampires Du so I'm going to write one. Yeah, do that, I'll try. I back to through reviews. So I think I'm going to take the review section out just in general. We might we might still talk about what Andrew Edner and Butler his rankings and stuff, because I think they're fun to follow along with. But I haven't found anything interesting in the secondary reviews and they're hard to find and I really care. So unless I find anything particularly interesting, we might drop them. Something I'm pretty sure I found Inter review and then didn't write down and haven't been able to find is I think there was a reviewer and if I ever I have enough time to do the transcript for this, I will put the note in there when I find it. Someone somewhere was making a snarky comment about how CARPA Juggulin, which...

...is cease the throat, will go for the throat, which Maddie used to have written on her fencing mask. Yeah, it's pretty good, can then she but although ironically it was my trademark move to stab people in the throat, she would jump around and smack him on the back of the head. Yes, I'm one. Somewhere was pointing out the cover juggling isn't actually like correct Latin. I'll off right. But also there's what you wanted. Yes, but also, incidentally, Pratchett has stumbled upon something connects to the round by a tradition in doing this, because in the one thousand nine hundred and Fifty Eight Hamma Horror Film Dracula, or horror of Jackola, which has Peter Cushing, who's grandmof talking from Star Wars as van helsing and Christophilei, who you may know, a Sarah Man, as Dracula and I think is probably the best of the campy like Old Dracula movies, is definitely better than the universal ones, which, yeah, they're a bit of a slot. But draculas family crest is shown bearing the Latin Motto Fordelas et Morton. So I wanted to find out what this meant. Yes, so I hunted down the translation of this family crest. I found a two thousand fourteen blog post titled making sense of Draculas Family Motto by University of Leads Lecture of Penelope Goodman, where they attempted to translate the motto and, as they point out in a feature that called the demon other from the two thousand and thirteen DVD or Blu Ray release of horror of Dracula. Vampire scholar Christopher Frehley translates the model as faithful and dead, with that translation also being repeated by film Art Historians Marcus Herne and Jonathan Rigby on the DVD's commentary track. So this is sort of the official line of what it translates as. However, as Goodman points out, Mordem is a noun, not an aggrative, and therefore means death, not dead, which, combined with the Latin word order, makes the mode and death faithful rather than faithful and death. It's actually has it's written it's and death faithful, which, as goodness points out, is a bit meaningless. And Goodman says it was likely that they were aiming at something more like fidelis AD mortem, which is perfectly good Latin and means faithful unto death, which is also the motto of the New York City Police Department. All right, but this is all to say that within the Dracula tradition, the vampire tradition, there is at least one significant instance of an incorrectly phrase Latin. So I think practice is doing a part on on Carbo DM. Yeah, there's no way you do this. Yeah, I thought maybe we're going to argue that he did it because he knew about that. Oh, no, yeah, so what? No, I don't think so, but I think it's a yeah, coincidence that that actually lines up with something. So I thought that was interesting. Be a something more significant and definitely deliberate to Carba Jug Gilm is the treatment of this triple goddess archetype that we were talking about last episode on Mass Great and weirdly enough, the idea of the triple got us the version of the mother and the crone again, incidentally, ties in with Dracula and the vampire tradition, because the earliest of Bram stokers notes for Writing Dracula, which you can get, there's a book of them, is the scene with dracers three wives are at the three vampire women, with a deleted passage in the type script comparing them to the three which is in mcbeth Nice, Jonathan Harker the right, the guy they're attacking, the narrator in that section of Dracula, remarking for a fear to see those weird sisters. How right was Shakespeare. No one would believe that, after three hundred years, one could see in this fastness of Europe the counterpart of the witches of Macbeth. So yes again, incidentally, by combining witches and vampires we got, we got some nod to the conception of vampires themselves. The editors of Stoker's notes also claim that, in contrast to the Weird Sisters in Dracula's Castle, Lucy and mean own in Dracula right, the two girls that Dracula comes and vaporizers are the virgins and treasures of Bram stokers macaba fairytale. Don't know what that means, but it does set us up for our first aspect of the triple goddess that we want to talk about, which is the Virgin. Yeah, which is, you know, probably the most pertinent two vampires as well, because, as everybody knows, because everyone knows things about vampires, vampires are always after virgins on their wedding night, and I think this goes back to that idea of the stages being like the energy giving right, you're a virgin on your wedding night. You're expected to not be a virgin anymore. So you get your power your energy taken by the patriarchy. Vampires. Now fires. Yes, Fus, what the energy? The fires, one of our Patriarchy by taking there. No, vampires are the patriarch. O is, the vampire didn't come. The Patriarchy was still take the Virgin's energy. Well, yes, okay, but it's like evil patriarchy. Yeah, those to normal not evil patriarchy. I mean from stokers point of view, right, from Jonathan Harker, is the good patriarchy. I mean it's racism. Yeah, collodial patriarchy, vers is the yeah, but Shu, I...

...mean that that's pretty clear symbolism because, like, weirdly, until Byron, HMM, vampires are mostly female, right there, these sucky best light ghost apparitions that come and, yeah, take people's blood in the night. And then Byron and Dracula really cement male vampires as the archetype and through Dracula specifically, as we will go into all of this in pain speaking detail later, painstaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, draucula stands for a lot of things, but one of the things he pretty clearly stands for is it's men and women. Right, women are the victims that the male is the oppress. I had that is pretty consistent until about the nineties. It's interesting because it's a variation on the Gothic theme, you know, of like the innocent virgin woman being toyed with by the Gothic villain, because this was we're going to talk about. This is the variation on the Gothic, isn't it? So it's just cracular, is it? Let's and that like yeah, but like you know, you get you get Radcliffe in, the monk and everything, and then Dracula comes in the nineteen century, you know. So it's like it's yeah, the next iteration, I guess. And GOTHIC villains. And it's more dreadful, penny dreadful, strop yourselves in. He's been preparing me from I haven't you had coming up with them right now. The messages, I haven't have, penny dreadful, other steaking. Most of them was are one I ones I have found in other fan play books, right like when Vair Parella knows dracarati so in he is one thousand nine hundred and twenty eight English translation of the MELLEA smeller for Car British the which is Hammer. That which is how I, which we've talked about the British clergyman Montague Summers wrote slickt Ah Young Lad who is a pure maiden. Put It on a young stallion who was not mounted his first mayor cold black, without a speck of white, riding to a cemetery, in and out among the graves. And if there is one that the horse refuses to pass, that is where the vampire lies. So whatever the Horse is just picking. This is male. Human and horse virgins been used to detect vampires. But it also recalls right at the idea that the virgin is the only one who contend the Unicorn, which was granny's role in Lords and ladies, which I think I said in the lead up to this are there's a lot of stuff in Corp Juggling that sort of undermines this idea of granny as as the Virgin. Curne. Yeah, but I think that was getting it all mixed up, because it's really the intimation that she's a virgin comes from Lords and ladies. Yeah, but I still think it's there. As will times when I was reading it I'm like, Oh, like this one. It does. It's important. Yeah, and I think there's something to that in that granny is so powerful because she is a crone who has not had her energy sucked. Yeah, by by the Patriarchy, by losing her maidenhoyd. But then there's something there that plays into these ideas of like like that by stuff is will don't, don't sleep around because you'll lose your purity. Right, that's the Camilla stuff, you know, during experiments sexually, otherwise you'll lose your purity. So there's something about granny that like, is subverting this trope that she's the Virgin Crowne but is also reinforcing these kind of I'm not say prudish, but puritanical, traditional, yeah, notions of sexual purity. That the part of the reason why granny is so powerful is that she never gave into sexual temptation. Yeah, or you know, it was too busy, but get busy. I'm so she's busy, had other things on, but there's something there and that she is able to defeat the vampire because she never gave into temptation. So Jennifer Jill fellows provides a canty in an elephant, a canty in analysis of Granny's philosophy of not treating people's objects and ends in themselves right we're not talking about that. But in that analysis fellow says that weather waxed women have always had one foot in shadows. It's in the blood and most of their power comes from denying it and continues that granting weather access. Power comes from self denial, from not giving into what she wants to do and instead holding fast what she ought to do. So there's a couple of things here. One is that emphasis of wants and adds, which are written in Italics. So fellows is emphasize in me. So we apply that to the Virgin thing. Right, she wants to have sex but she ought not to. So there is that implication. But also there is the idea of a being in the blood that there's also this heritage angle, which we've mentioned a couple of times. But here's where you get it right. You get the familial conduct connection to black hours. You get the idea of granty's blood itself being powerful in contrast to everything that was sort of undone, in subverted, in equal rights. Where he serial he starts. Yep. So you know Prattet's not saying it's all biology or heritage and that the people who don't have that heritage can't be what I mean the reason, the reason squ was so powerful? What's because of her heritage. So there's something going on there with the natural disposition, natural inclination, which of course goes into the vampire stuff, which will...

...talk more about in part two. But Vampires are so powerful or behave in certain ways because of their lineage, and maybe so do witches. Yeah, connection. So, yes, granny is sort of a, you know, amalgamation of everything, right, she's the the perfect mix. Yeah, she's a virgin current. She's got all of it. But yeah, she in terms of the triple goddess, she represents the Virgin Crone, which this is something Pratchett does, especially in this book, is mixed these three, yeah, roles which were in the other books, the which has been signed, pretty specific roles. Here he's pretty specifically, very blurring them. So in her two thousand and eight Article Nice, good or right, Jenny Brennan Croft argues the granny combines all three aspects of the triple goddess in one, with nanny herself observing in the text that granny was a maiden as far as nanny knew, and she was at least in the right age bracket for a crowd. And as for the third, well, cross granny weather wax on a bad day and you'd be like a blossom in the forest. Well, that's from masquerade, as I know what that last bit means. No, I think the implication is that, like, she's Stern. Yeah, you're in trouble. Yeah, which is that blossom in a frost? Yeah, you've done for but is that granny's entire claim to motherhood is that you're in trouble if you cross her. That's fair. She's kind of like mothery to sk but the whole premises that she's granny, whether was grant, which she's. She is like maternal qualities through granny, like through being a granny. I don't know. I'm just like sit yeah, but that's all I've got really. And she, I guess you could say she kind of like maternally mentors the others in a weird, fucked that way. But yeah, that's all your when they are called granny and nanny, yeah, it's nanny. Nay, I guess you can be a nanny and raising children are and I get that. Yeah, I don't know if any weather waxes really my mother. Hmm, I definitely say the vote. She's a virgin curry, because you're right, nanny is more mothering towards MC grant and the others. Yes, yeah, and I guess granny is more of a mental and like there are maternal qualities, but not as much as many. Yeah, I'm not sure it's there, but like not as much. So I'm not sure about that. In the disco companion Pratchett Brigg State, the Celibacy has no physical effect on magical ability and has no relevance to the magical art. Otherwise than any odd would be a washerwoman or or she would be as powerful as grand right. The reason why many is not as powerful as granny, apart from her any edge. Is that say? She got it on? Yeah, I do like when mcgret comes in and goes, I get all the jokes now and he's like even the Bloba blind she's out letting get. That's all. Was Thirty six or something. That's good, but as non he explains to Agnes in Covera Jugger, she says that ain't really important because at a downto technicality. See now, me, I don't recognize ever a maiden mentally right. So this is again subverting that it's not to shape of mind, right, it's not the physical disposition. So perhaps granny embodies these things mentally as well, but then also physically, like there's a little bit of and I loathe to use the term, but I can't think of an altentive like a merry suing to granny and that she's this perfect mix of everything. I think she's a more complicated version of that. But she is like Oh when she's also the great granddaughter of the Most Powerful, which and that most powerful which wasn't that bad act. And Yeah, yeah, there's a lot. Yeah, so gretty is one of the virgions in carpet juggler and but of course the more traditional role of the version, he is played by Agnes in Carpa Jugger, and of course she's subverting this idea of virgins and vampires which, for the record, versions of Vampires. It is a thing by implication in that it's on their wedding night. Often Vampires aren't that discriminating in who was everyone right. It just coincidentally happens to be virgins all the time. But I haven't come across anything that stipulates you must have virgin blood. That seems to be something that's picked up. There's tensing rain of Roberts Rights in prejets women. She writes that upon revisiting carpet Jugger, she discovered, to her surprise, it was now her favorite granny weather wax book. Mostly drew to the treatment of Agnes, writing that Vlad spends most of the book trying to Seduce Agness and there are implications of a quite a and less showy potential romance between she and OATES, and celebrating romantically desirable fat women in fantasy fiction for the win. She also writes considering the thematic importance of Agnes's waiting masquerade, it's refreshing that it's not remotely relevant to carpet juggle on. The only time her fatness is even referred to is when the bitchy female vampire lacquer remorse I uses it to insult her, and that tells us a lot more about lackey than Agnes. And I agree with this, but I still think the fat jerks in this book are a lot. Yeah, there are a lot. It's not just that, it's there's a lot of fat jokes. Yes, it will be that angus rather stuff. Yeah, so I don't know if this is as positive a portrayal of Agnes as I guess it's better than as gray, but it's not yet good. It's the way defining part of her personality, I guess, her wonderful personality. So I don't know. How did you feel, because you were I said one of the things I liked...

...about as gray was agnes, and you didn't really you liked him or here? Yeah, like him on here. I feel like she's like, like, I like that Perdita and her. There's more going on there. There's more discussion, it's funny, it's yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. So that's the role of the Virgin and we also have the role of the mother, which I don't really have much to say that because I think, as we said in the last podcast, it's not really project really is focusing on the role of the current in the Virgin. The mother's just sort of hanging out in the middle and this is maybe the book where we get the most mother stuff. I think it's where we get home the most nanny, but we also get magrats transition from maiden to mother, with Agnes hearing Perdita. Think I don't like Magrat. She's not like she used to be. Well, of course she's not, but she's taking charge. She's not cringing slightly like she used to. She's not wet. That's because she's a mother. Agnes thought mother's are only slightly damn, which is cool, except after this, Magrat completely disappears as a character. It's kind of sad. Right, Broth in future book she doesn't play a role until the shipherd's crown, where she shows up kind of but also in this book I didn't. I like the idea of Magrat being able to beat this kick ass mother, except that I just found all she does is like carry around baby, changed tables and stuff. She doesn't actually do anything. In this book it was it was kind of funny, but other lines, yeah, she's kind of dis empowered, especially after like the last time we saw her was when she was kicking ass and taking names in yeah, some ladies. Here she's just bumbling around, yeah, and being like Oh, you didn't bring it off an APPI's yeah, like why did she go? Grummer Rama kind of like a yeah, he's mocking that idea of motherhood, like new mothers who are worrying and things like that, you know. Yeah, yeah, which I think is amusing, but is not balanced with what any kind of yet new found capability. Yeah, so sorry, it's kind of a step back from mcgrat she definitely doesn't come off as a confidently as she did at the end of Lords and ladies. Firstly, yeah, we have nanny who, as I think, we have the best characterization or the most characterization of manny. He's mostly around to just say funny things in the background in the earlier books, whereas he or she's a driving force. We get a lot more of her own motivations. She's also not right about anything. Yeah, every every decision she makes is wrong and like her mcgrat think that nanny's put her she's buried, like put her consciousness in the child or whatever, and like for nanny to know where so well and not get that, I thought was I didn't like that she knew what where. She'd be like they go off and they find the cave and she's like right, what's up, you know, and ever then gratty just tells her to Piss off and then she's like, Oh, I guess we piss off then. Like I was sort of annoyed that, like nanny, seems very lost as a crowne, which I guess he's getting getting used to it, like. Well, I think that's part of it, is that she is like I'm not suited to being a crown like I am a mother, and she is so much a mother, like she is the most mother. She also has her own kind of nity crisis like that. Yeah, I think it's just her incapable, like she is almost as powerful as granny. I can't remember if it's this book or what this physic quote is, but there's a thing where she says the only reason that I'm not the most feared thing is because granny is. But that's implying that like she's she's formidable as well, but here she seems completely ineffective. So that kind of bothered me. Be Yeah, not much to say about the mother Cuz I don't think projects that interested in the role really. But yes, what he's interested here is the role of the Crowne and Greenny's reckoning with that and, as Roberts argue, is in projects women. Project subverts the female victim gets the better of the Vampire Trope, which I can actually come up with that many examples of I got a need a blake vampire hunter, although she starts that as a vampire hunter, saying with buffy right, I can't actually think of an example of vampire fiction where the female victim triumphs. Normally they have a male savior or they are already been offs here. Maybe I will look through my list and come up with one layer. But by employing a completely passive method, grenny literally lies down and lets them drink her blood and allows the results to be devastating. This is Roberts saying this again. It's one of the best examples I can think of of how the strong woman characters trope has read it so many types of females strength and visible, saying that any female hero who acts other than violent and aggressive, while also being sexy, is often derided by critics as a weak, passive or sexist character, while those who act in traditionally masculine, active ways are treated as the only female here you're as we're celebrating. So there's something going on here, and that, yes, like when we're talking about a need to blake. WHO's like? It's a series of books called a need to bake vampire hunter. The come out early s Proto buffy stuff. It's essentially true blood but starring buffy. And yes, of course you get buffy in the middle of the of the vampires, in the middle of the BS. These are women taking on traditional masculine roles or hads. What if a value girl was man helsing? No, I realize when we're watching the movie like the title Buffy the Vampire Slayer as a joke. Like, imagine a vampire slayout named Buffy like that. Is it itself meant to be a joke, whereas nowadays buffy means Vampire slayer? Yeah, it's almost a similar COOM, but not quite, not at all. So there's something going on here. Well, saying that Grenny's using her passive power to defeat the vampires and that makes her more...

...feminine, but then that also inherently says that being passive is a Feminine Act. So I don't know. You got anything. So yeah, part of Cuppa Juggle them is the idea that they're all moving up roles right, they're all progressing, with Magara becoming the mother and any becoming the crone, and that leaves granny with nowhere to go. So she's becomes concerned about cackling, which, again, this is a reference. I didn't have time to hunt down and find out, but somewhere I read on it was. I was a home, a boy backed in who talked about how cackling, like traditionally, was applied to gossip. So rather than laughter, it was like chattering women. That's right. Yeah, so this idea of any being concerned that she's going to start to cackle ties into this idea of like, don't cackle, don't talk to other women, right, and that sort of stuff. Yeah, so back then, writes, in rebel US and his world, the traditions of grotesque realism are even more feasible and narrow in seventeen century literature, with its dialog. We have a here in mind, the cackle of the confined women, a short piece which was published in several installments in six hundred and twenty two and seems so, been composed by several authors. It presents the usual female gathering at the bedside of a woman recovering from childbirth. In this particular piece, the author eavesdrops on the women's chat a while hiding behind a curtain, and this female cackle is nothing but gossip and Tiltatlem. Yes, that's this idea where we're just have a further layer of sex of them too. Yeah, so it's associating like whiches and women with this like threat of gossip, which men Hay. Right. Yeah, part of the threat of witchcraft is that it's not a single woman, it's a community to think, gang UPROM US what? And Patriarchy? Yeah, okay, cut bill, reads granny. He's going off to die as a defensive use the NASIL. What? Yeah, she says. PRATCHETT's defense of youthanasia was not only motivated by his own condition. He's view had already been a parent in works written before his diagnosis, in COMPA Jugglin, for example. Granny states. So there are times when you need to show people the way, when a mind is a rage of pain and a body has become its own worst enemy, and when people are simply in a prison made of flesh. Wow, yeah, I wasn't really on board with this, but that's some pretty clear or euthanasius. But going on their rights, yeah, okay, and seeing that's interesting, M so, but the does lend some something to that. This is a broader ideology of Pratchett's not just a response to he is Alzheimer's DNA. It's yeah, I thought that was very specific but very astute observation. But yeah, so those are the three traditional roles. But, as I mentioned before, what carpet Jugglin is more about is the blending and blurring of these roles, creating hybrid roles. So, despite starting with the subversion of female wizards in equal rights, as crost observes, in the dissonance between the architiveal rolls of the real and the real people filling them, real people there's in fictional characters, prushet again reinforces his message that stories cannot be allowed to dictate roles to people. See, yes, the hybrid roles we have in Corpa Jugglin, or at least as I had ever, then we've got granny, who was the Virgin Crowne we've got mcgrat, who is a maiden mother. Right, we've got nanny, who's the mother curing. Does that? Yeah, that checks out. That checks out obviously. But, as Lauren Anderson observes in her two thousand and six Masters thesis, What Which? Which is which? The role of Tiffany, a King, which we are going to talk about briefly here. This is granny's future apprentice. Is More complicated. She appears at first to be the WAIF, yet is too powerful for that. So this is like mcgrat being a the whet hen. She is more the precursor of the ice cream stereotype, powerful and unattainable, and rites that. It will be interesting to see what Pratchett does with her and future novels if she shares up again. Perhaps she will repeat Granny's maiden to crowne transition. And since writing this in two thousand and six you never got through all the tiffany aping books. Right. Sorry, this is exactly what happens right. It sort of looks like from from the start of the tiffany aching series, tiffany is being set up to have a romantic relationship with the barren Sun Rowland, who she rescues from the fairy kingdom, but that gets a band and pretty quickly, which is cool, and then she has a later relationship with Simon, I think it is, who wants to become a doctor, but then he moves to our more fork and hum and tiffany become too busy to see each other. This is what happens with granny and Red Collie? Yeah, but right when the series ends, right, granny wather wax is old, or actually she's dead in the shepherd's crown. Right, the series ends with granny weather wax dying, but she's she's a a virgin chrone, whereas tiffany aching at that point, I think, is sixteen and in the last tepny ache books, so it's just coming into woman and everything. So I would say rather than being a virgin crowne as granny is, she is a Crown Virgin. Okay, did do you see any meaningful distinction there? I guess you haven't really read the books, but in that she is a young person who was taken on chrome like attributes. Yeah, where's granny is an older archetype that retains the younger archetypes qualities. Tiffany aking is a younger archetype who has achieved the older right, that's right. So they're sort of the same, but it's a flip. Will explore that more...

...when we get to those books. We also have esque reappearing again and I shall wed midnight, where I think she's a mother crone. Right, this is the last combination that we don't really have. We have nanny, but, as we said, she's not really a successful crown, whereas esc appears just as like in a single scene but shows up from an alternate future dimension but is an old age lady but has two children with her. She's still wizard. Yes, yeah, but they're meant to be. I think I said Simon before was tiffany's love interests in Simon. The name of s love interest in Preston. Preston is the guy who's the doctor who tiffany. Yeah, no, it's it's implied that Eskin sign we moved into a parallel dimension and running up and down the corridors of time having kids. But yet she appears very elderly but is raising children. She's out of time right. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I do like I show where midnight. But the point of all this is that people are complicated and don't fit up at archetype malts, which I think is what projects clearly the statement he's clearly trying to make in this book as his final statement in the witches series. He's played around with these molds and at the end goes but that's not how it works. Right. This is part of the idea of stories telling you how to live your life is that you don't have to fit these types. Yeah, so, before we get into the exploration of Vampires, there's a couple of things I want to talk about and a couple of things I don't like, because the first of these is the is the magpies thing. So you didn't get this either? Yeah, because it is. It is an English thing. Like, I'm sorry too, if joy in it to count them and like it is an open because I had never heard, and have never heard, with with one exception, of this outside of the context of carpet juggle. But you had. Yeah, okay, because I just I was like, what is this name Puy thing? Yeah, it's it's just think aunt, like pies run right, and of course I realize there's a joke. Is Count to Magpire. Yeah, I didn't get that. Yeah, yeah, but I did get that now when I when I wrote it down, he count the Magpie, but again, I meant to count the vent piles. I don't know. Yeah, it's just from like it's like a am mixing, like it does, and it's not really a thing. Yeah, I mean the Association of the Vampires with Magpies in this book is like a play on the association with wolves and Rats and things and Dracula, another vampire stuff. There is one other book where Vampires are specifically said to be able to transform into birds, and that is Stephen King Salem's light. So there you go. There's going to be a lot of this. Of Me just dropping in, by the way, is this. Yeah, yeah, so that's the first of those and also does a personal story. So when I when I started rereading this in preparation for the podcast, like the day I started rereading this, because we still live in schools be where the football team is the magpies, because there's magpies everywhere right and we used to have like magpies all over our front lawn and shelly would go out and try and find them and I was like no, surely they twice your size. They will kill you the course. But so I used to see magpies all the time and we moved to the new house didn't see any magpies. The day I started re reading this book, I look out the winner Magpie Lands of the Balcony Stares at me through the way dark one, sorry one, for that's a vampire come a fuck me up. But Project and Simpson actually talked about magpies a bit in the folklore of disc world, saying that magpies reputation as the this is connected to the Italian composer. Do you want to do this one? Giokin geochy? No, Rossini, his opera the thieving may pie. We're a woman is sentenced to death for stealing a silver spoon that was actually sold by that part. But proaching Simpson right that it is said that they will even fly down to hell if there is a bag of gold to be found there, to which I respond, who says? WHO said? Come on, citations needed? Who says there by Magpies will fly down to hell? Not Me, not anything. I looked at and I know a lot about the whole person have come across magpies. Never, not once, not even in Spencer, which is, you know, a big companion of lots of symbols and what they mean. But Yeah, we have this rung that you've heard that I haven't. But the oldest known version prusch and Simpson clean in the folklore of discords from Seventeen Eddie and Lincolnshire, which has three for a wedding and for for a death, one for sorry, two for joy. It's herefore runing for for death. Well, you know this. It's just baffled me for years. And like, what is that? Weird Mad Pie thinking, Carver Juger? But alternate versions given by Pratchett and Simpson in the folklore of disc world include seven for a witch, which I just thought was interesting, since we had the equal rights and and something. Of course she's the eight SONSORT's eight for a wizard and maybe seven for a which eight for a wizard? Who is? He's got the same eight bagpies also at once. I in scope be on the Front Law. And Yeah, and the other one they have is our five for heaven, six for hell, seven and you'll see the devil himself. I'm going to go collect some magpies add questions. Right. Well, I thought this like you've gone down the numerology path. Right. So, but this is Biblical numerology thing, where five is heaven, six as hell, seven is seven. Seven, remember the elements bus. Yeah, sure, I know why. You see the devil himself. I mean I know it because if slip knots heritic anthem, which of course sins, if you're five fifty five, then I'm six,...

...six, six, because they're that ass. All right. Sure, where the seven comes into it? I don't know what's seven means. It's just a number. You know, it's the number. You know it's the number one picks to mean things. Yes, the last time you had a whole explanation. Ye, have nothing here. No, think it's just a good number. What like, I might say, picked the best ways? No, I'm did you for sure? I say take the best number. How many people are reckon? I'm going to say seven. No, not many. I think people avoid seven. Is Like lucky seven. You're going to try and be individual. Really, so you think people double guests themselves? There's a whole side looking kind year of having a favorite number. Mine's nine. So you didn't pick seven and I have a favorite number of these days, and I was a kid, my favorite numbers for six and two. Okay, yeah, so sevens. Okay, fair enough. But the only time I've encountered this magpie thing, which was recently, so I've gone thirty years without seeing this make my thing anywhere else. Well, I read this one I was thirty, actually thirty and a half. There is a reference to magpies in the second once in future King Book, the which in the wold from one thousand nine hundred and thirty nine, okay, in which King Parlor tells the round table night a Polem eates. You saw seven Maggot pies. Is Magpies, seven Magat pies flying along like frying pants. How do you fly like frying pan? Cually, flying frying pants, fly like magpies. Yeah, I don't get it, but that's the quiet good. Yeah, my flying along like frying pants and reciting one for sorrow too, for joy, three, four, marriage and for for a boy. So seven ought to be four boys when fantasizing about having started a family with the queen of Flanders Daughter Piggy. So something there about seven or two being for boys. I thought you might have something to say about the magpies and the numerology, but you don't. I might have a theory about why the MAG pliyes are important, because right at the whole point is that the magpies are trying to subvert kind of superstition. People think they know things about vampires and they're trying to subvert that. And all throughout the book they're counting magpies and they're being like, oh, it's one four or no, it's two four or it's three four, so maybe the two off. Yeah, they're trying to like the superstition is at play and people trying to interpret reality through it, but actually it's not right. That is a really interesting tie into something when I get and get too shortly about quilting master signifiers. Okay, yes, that is the only time I've come across this magpy thing outside of Corpa jackline. So hits. How do I put this in a way that demonstrates my disdain? The the Youtube is that before the Youtube is that be writing the books, whether they do goes written or not. They're back right, so is a wellow is just written a book with someone else and they they're going, I don't know who these people are, people will know, but the first they're doing on on the magpie thing. It's the first one for one for sir, and then too for joy. And they come up on my radar because my best friend is doing a publishing course and we both scream endlessly about the fact that you shoos are topping the you know, the book selling charts the moment. But it's like a Gothic Blah Blah Blah with about superstitious stuff. The other vampire, the magpies are there. So yeah, it's a thing, it's okay. Yeah, we also have I think this is the third one now, and incidental connection, perhaps through the vampire tradition, just through something randomly Pratjett's put in the book. Okay, sorry. In his article on Dracula and the anxiety of reverse colonization, Stephen D Rada observes that van housing rights, that the vampire is the unavoidable consequence of any invasion. He have followed the week of the Berserker, Icelander, the Devil Begotten, humed, the Slab, the Saxon and the Maguire, which is felt with a why. So I'm just looking at that word going that looks like Magpie, whether hy in the Pratchet Book, and my pleasure of to know for kind of like pilfering things or getting on my so maybe there's an association between Vampires and Magpie, right, the stealing, but the Maguire, which, yes, he is like one the other away from Magpie with the why, is a member of a people who originated in the Urals and migrated Westwood to settle in what is now hungry in the ninth century, a D Hungarian vampire. Right, that's where Dracula and everything's meant to come from. So it's like it's this idea that Dracula comes from the easy invading warrior people, because here there is implication, because didn't translate here as where many are. But I think he's just reference to a general area stock. His sources for law in his notes to Druggel also include the Reverend W Henry Jones and Lewis l knos, folk tales of the make eys. So maybe something. But there's something there, something going on there, but I don't know what it is and it might be incidental. But yes, this is just another way the projects maybe hit on something to do with dracul. Yes, another thing that may or may not be going on incoporation going I'm not sure. I'm want to get your expertise on the cells. Is this treatment of gothical landscape. So the influential fantasy critic and one of the editors of the Terra pactect guilty of literature collection for from Menderson. In her book rhetorics of fantasy, she calls and red cliffs the mysteries of you, Dolphi, from one thousand seven hundred and ninety four, which you've read and I have not because it's so big. She calls you to offer an intrusion fantasy that unusually proceeds as a trouble narrative, since, instead of answering questions about the landscape with...

...guide book detail, it's guide figure. Now I'm not sure who this guid figure is. Do you know who the guide figure is? Emily, essentially pagan. Okay, so that the main character. Yeah, intends to teach not just about the land but the appropriate sensibility that should be brought to the appreciation of the landscape, which runs through the relationship between intruder and intrusion in the Gothic and its successes. Now that you've explained to me that the guide figure is emily, I do kind of get that, because the one thing I remember from the first like forty pages of your dolphire reads had gone on about the tree constantly. Right I look at the stray, it's a hot race. Is Poetry about the tree. I was yeah, interesting because the god of think initially worked as a travel kind of genre because people couldn't visit Europe at the time because of the walls, right. So, and wouldn't be able to, essentially for a generation that couldn't go on their La grand tour. That's right, byrons were so secure, so curitest, so too inest, so like and yeah, it allows that kind of like travel through writing that you now get, I guess, in TV shows and programs and documentaries and things. So I don't know that unusually is right. But yeah, okay, it does proceed as a travel narrative. You know, I think she's saying that it is a travel narrative. As unusual is that it is an intrusion fantasy, which I have not fined he out of. Don't think so. I don't know. I'm not sure I'd buy that, because the others are the same and the protagonist is the guide, and often it's a female and they're like they've got a sensibility with a landscape, having a good one. So the idea is you have someone who's sort of more in touch with nature telling other people how to treat it. Hilight, the natural orter, which is something pratchetts delt with before. And Yeah, the GOTHIC has this idea. Yeah, well, I guess this is where the intrusion thing is coming as, like I like with the Hamlet, right, you've got the uncle being the unrightful air. So it's this intrusion upon the natural auto, maybe the state of there not right. That's the line. Yeah, something like that. So mendicine argues that for a landscape to become wild, as it does in Gothic fiction, what is impressed upon it or dug up, is a belief that the civilized exterior area is merely a mask. Questions answered in ways that tantalize with hid knowledge, and she gives the following example from me, Dolpho, that I thought we could read as a dramatic dialog. All right, who's gonna be, Michael, and I have no idea who any of the characters are. I think I kind of want to be the peasant, but, like, given that you've read the book, I'll let you choose. Yeah, sure, you can be the person. And what's my motivation? I don't remember, right, I haven't had a chance stored this scene. I wasn't. You gave me the right. I have no context for that. This is the story, all right, so we'll read the different dialogs and also just read the narration that goes along with your section. Yet so you start, which is the way to the Chateau in the wood? Scribe, Michael. You gonna get okay, I gotta be. We're GOTHIC. which is a way to the chateau in the woods. CRIBE, Michael, the Chateau of the woods, exclaimed of peasant. Do you mean that with the Turret Yonder? I don't know. As for the Turret, as you call it, said Michael. I mean that white piece of a building that we see a distance there among the trees. Yes, that is the Turret. Why, who are you that are going thither? said the man with surprise. Say No, BET hearing this odd question, observing the peculiar tone in which it was delivered, looked out from the carriage. We are travelers, said he, who are in search of a house of accommodation for the night. Is there any here about? None, Miss Your and he's a creepy peasant, Numb, Monsieur, unless you have a mind to try your luck Yonder, replied the peasant, pointing to the woods, but I would not advise you to go there. To whom does the Chateau belong. I scarcely know myself. Once you're it isn't uninhabited, then no, not uninhabited. The Steward and House people are there. I believe I'm hearing this SONA bird determined to proceed to the Chateau and risk. The reviews are being combinated for the night. Right. I know this is from now. Uh Huh. Is it the start of the book? I told you. That's like a hundred pages of them just wandering out a fucking forest. That's I got halfway through that and essentially that that, that's it. They're trying to find some way safe to rest. Let's let's just make it simple and that this is them finding the place. Right on the end they're like the Chateau. I had no idea what this is. I just put it in there. I thought it would be fun to read, but I have actually worked it out reading that, because we'd lie. I've unlocked this through my weird evil peasant voice, because I went to a weird Gothic, creepy man. By the fault, he's just a peasant, but yeah, because meddlesome men rights. She gives this as an example of scenes that were quote imitated and refined and many horror white riders and later hurridied, as in Terry Pratchett's carpet juggling. Yeah, that's why I put it in there, the coppet juggling reference. Now, I didn't get it, but having just great, this is the dark going near the castle. Right. Yes, we're telling people not to go places. It's just like the it's just saying don't go to the castle. It's not a big deal, but yes,...

...it is. We right, right, UM, because it's like all the other things we talked about. You know, Frankenstein is the scientist. He's turned into the crazy scientistated all becomes a parody after the fact, like the actual gothic horror things become parodies. Yea, yeah, where's it's a notable thing in all the rand cliffs novels that it's kind of like in Shakespeare the peasant is always the like the billigit it kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, they kind of it's as a class walkery going on, because I haven't read it, but like this is a safe place. They go to a new delphone. HMM, at first yeah, right, so there we go. Dracula's you'd Alfer Pratchett. We brought it all together. Yes, we also have the Nali country continuing on this idea of the landscape and stuff, which changes to reflect the mood and attitude of its observer, which I went. That's quantum projects, all about quantum. This is yet landscape that he's determined by. The Observer, however, in her essay on the witches from the guilty of literature collection, car and say are considers the Nari country a reflection of the notion that nature comes from culture and that any landscape we pass through is overlaid with socially constructed ways of seeing which shape our experience. I guess, yeah, this is one of those things where it's like it's there, but I don't know if that's what he was saying right, the idea, because it's the scene where Agnes has to she can't cross a Perdida can yeah, so I think this is about like selfbelief rather than nature culture. You're right. I'm thinking of the time I was stranded for an aunt Slovakia and how peasant coming a little, it was terrified, but it probably wasn't. You know, I was projected both me and culturally. You know. Yeah, so you're don't. I want to say I mostly wanted to bring that up just so we could do a dramatic rating of you, Dolpho, but we actually unlocked something about it. It's method and when people ask what my methodology is, I'm like, well, me analysis, are going to read it through it in buddy voices and we'll see what happens. Yeah, okay, so that's just some story observations and things. Our last thing before we get onto vampires and something going to be a bit more to a lot more technical, is I want to look at this idea of modernization and progress. So in his two thousand fourteen book fantasy, politics and Postmaternity, Andrew Raymond, who we've brought up a few times previously on the PODCAST, uses carpent ruggle them to illustrate fantasies capacity to present theoretical conceptualizations in a purified state. Exploring the novels attempt to quote Quilt Ideology, Ideological Space With a master signifier. All right, wow, quote simply means to establish itself as the dominant or default interpretation. So I'm not sure of quote. I didn't like read his part where he defines quiote. I worked it out from the context. But, like, I guess this is like blanketing its mothers, that it collapses that I'm not really sure the dominant thing. Yes, Sir Raymond gives the example of liberalism as an unquilted signifier. Right, without context, the ideology of being a liberal is ambiguous. Right, you could be a social liberal, be an economic liberal at Australia. Right, you could be a political liberal. Yeah, but so, yes, it relies on the context around it to tell you what that ideology is. Just saying I'm a liberal is meaningless. So to become a master signify is to become the default interpretation, right, quilting or fixing the ideological field of meaning. Right. So just like what? What is the dominant definition that wins out? And this is what this is why I brought up before when you said there's all the different variations of the Magpie Ryan. Right, so to quote the Magpie Ryan would to say this is the Magpie Ryan, this is the definity version all the other ones. And I guess that's how superstition works. Is like it. Yeah, they're trying to quote something. So a lot of technical language for what is my rather clear concept. When you just explain it. So in carpet jugular, Raymond says, the floating signifier that is up for grabs is the heavily loaded term progress. Yeah, right, with both variants and the magpie seeking to break with a stupid and superstitious past and drag their respective communities into the year of the fruit. Back. That's the way I made when reading this tea. I don't need godear that turrets. He compares the cultural conditioning of the magpire children with variance has similarly trying to condition his daughter via modern parenting techniques. Right, one of my favorite bit bits is when they're talking about how variance has been trying to improve things and that everyone shouts and is like yeah, great, cool, yeah, and then just goes about doing it the same way. It's very fun. Longker doesn't change. No, and the idea of modernization is something that's intrinsically intertwined with the Vampire Geen, or since at least dracular. Right, it's probably present earlier, but Dracula is the one that really goes no, this is old versus new yolder versus near. Yeah. So, yes, as a runter observes in his article on Jacula and reverse colonization. While gothic novels had traditionally displaced their set time or the Carl Lander, gothic writers such as stoke are route their action firmly in the modern world, playing off tensions between the new and the old world, and indeed drager was praised by reviewers for it's uptodatedness.

It's right. Yeah, it seems silly now, but it's central. From us is Victorian Monderism and enlightenment thinking being threatened by old world supernatural savagery and the Gothic being of eximpt yet which is ultimately defeated by a modern van helsing's modern scientific methodology. Right, he goes and Researches Vampires, comes back and goes here. Is What we know from reading all the vampire fiction, which is what Pratchett is subverting in Corpa Jugglin, because Van Housing is somehow able to go research champ as a come back with our akreherent vision of them, which they're probably was at that point, whereas after Dracula it's splintered into so many different interpretations that you now can't apply this methodology. And yet, on top of this research stuff, they also the way they find him as they go about it systematically, tracking down his addresses and ruling is out and cornering him. It's a terrible it's yeah, it's recent. Yeah, yes, seeing piricism or superstition. Yeah, again, we have playing off get coverage on. Yeah, commercially, as a runner of the those, Dracula's physical mastery of his British victims also begins with an intellectual appropriation of their culture which allows him to delve the workings of their nated mind. Right. So when HARKER FIRST GETS TO CASTLE DRACULA, HE OBSERVES DRACULA's expertise in life and customs and manners, and Harkers is like he's there's the real estate is essentially blood cold edge to study and test how well he blends into British society. Yeah, so drag US source static. Dracula is also saying, reading an English bread SHAWS guide, which is training timetables, which both the hawkers, Jonathan and mean, are also obsessed with, which is foreshadowing in that they truck dracula down through the time tables eventually. But it's also a symbol of modernization which in the Victoria right, seeing power and trains are the becoming technology. That is the paradigm shifting thing. Um, it's also the paradigm shift at the end of the discworld series with raising steam when trains get introduced to discworld. So there's something going on there. As a runner observes, startle also continually draws our attention to the affinities between Harker and Dracula, as in the off side at seeing, where Hawker looks for Dracula's refriction in the mirror and sees only himself, which is something very obvious but still makes me a nice also made explains why Vampires don't have reflections, because outside of Dracula it's like kind of nothing. It seeing something, but it's not there as often as you think. I don't really know why it's there, but I'm like, oh, it's this or Hawker could look in the mirror and see himself. Yeah, I think ill of people do just read it as this Old World Verse New Weld thing, but it's like the old world is taking on the new world, which is what's happening in Carba Jugglin right. Yeah, the new the new school vampires in Carpa Juggleam are actually acting like traculum yeah, yeah, cool, try thought. Yeah, it was cool. Right. Similarly as Raymon archy's project binds variance in the magpires together in language through their similar references to progress and modernity, both referring to a coming new world order and changing times, signaled by the sunlight of the dawning millennium in the Vampires case, and a glory that marks the rising sun in variances, so that progress and carpet Jugglam Raman says it's devoid of any meaning, it is unfixed, empty beyond that which is imputed to it through the frameworks of infarances and lighted progress, or the Vampires Fascist progress, and that, although they seek similar goals, their methods are very different. Vampires forcing their changes upon their subjects, while Vera, it's merely offers, and this is so project saying. True, enlightened progress is slow. Right. You were talking about how they like the idea that they don't do anything about it. But we can't resort to treat people like objects and things, as granny would say. Otherwise you end up with escrow where people are treated by vampires like cattle. So it's the idea that you can only offer people things you can't force it on them. You can't mandate a vaccine and Lin Bra, you know you got it. Yeah, the only I was bitching about this tells I work at walk earlier. But the only reference to something similar like this, like the vampires voluntarily taking attacks on the people, actually comes in the two thousand and four film Van Helsing, where Vampires only killed twice a month, and Van helsing coming in and killing the vampires upsets the balance. It brings revenge upon the town. So I mean that is an example of something that happens after couple druggim so it's possible that that seemed was influenced by it. I'm not sure it's. We're also one of either of hours from the Queens on its three short story of the month, who walk away from almost you familiar with this, because, yeah, were. Do you want to explain that? The story to town when one feels pain and everything's awesome and it's because there's a child who's like kept in a cab or something and feels the pain for everyone? Your name is amolous and everyone over town is call right, and there's a kid who feels all the pain and essentially everybody looking away, everyone else is able to be pain free. What am I missing? There's a bit of missing. Are you missing the bit where people walk away? Thank you. Almost is the ideal Utopian community where everyone's happy. But and...

...it's there's no mechanics to it right. It's complete allegory. But the only way they're able to achieve this is if a single child is permanently tortured and everyone knows this is happening, but if they don't say anything about it, everyone else keeps getting to be happy. So it's, you know, they greater the good utilitarian stuff, right, grace, good for the greatest number. And yes, the one who walk away from amost the title story. Other people who decide know who this is wrong. That's right. Yes, that's superfom movement. Yeah, it's very basic utopian, like, you know, someone's Utopia, someone else that's dystopia. Sort of thing. Be a remind me of that where everyone in scrow is like well, everything's fine if we just sacrifice children to the foam fires once a month. Right, yeah, but like maybe that is better. The BAGPIE is coming in and murdering everyone. For me, to the parent perspective, maybe it's not one of the other, because there's granny weather wack says there's no grades, only white. That's got grubby. Right. But this is also the third or fourth example to that Weird White Night Story. But so I really do think this is a thing with Pratchett. I think he's specifically referencing the story over and over again. It also recalls granny's debate with Mrs Goggling, which is abroad. If you remember, she told her you can't make things right by magic, you can only stop making them wrong. Where the kind of godmothers that gives people what they know they really need, not what we think they ought to want? Umbrella has got to find out for herself with no interference from anyone. No more stories, no more God mother's, just people deciding for themselves, for good or bad, right or wrong. So to me that's Verian's going he is sewage systems. You can have them, but I'm not going to make you have them, whereas the vampires are don't get some sewage systems, which also means, like we were talking about the portrait when of Ms Googlan, which is abroad, she's now the vampire and lock, although they're there, is a different context here, because we're very critical of Grannie saying this in that book. But that's because they were going into someone else's kingdom them telling them how to run it. So there was an imperial colonization contacts here. Where's here granny is talking about her own kingdom. You will. Yeah, the other thing here is it's freedom. Is the quilted. But does that actually mean? Yeah, is it freedom from or freedom to? Yeah, which I'm sure we could go into that but I don't want to. Yes, so I don't think practet's going quite as far as openly engaging with lacinian theory and philosophy like Raymon suggest but he's engagement with subtle themes here, I think, is far more deliberate than the class stuff. I was pushing a mastery. That was something I was reading into it, but I think Pratjett somewhat on. Incidentally, I think here project probably isn't thinking about quilty, but he is thinking about this. What what do you value of progress, free of yeah, cool. So that is everything in this book that is not vampires. So I'm going to go away and write the second part of this podcast and we will be back to discuss the history of vampires as a literary type. DIDLID Dilidu, dilid Tilid, and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. They will be another one along in the month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign up to our patreon page and yet all the episodes of full moonth in advance, along with any bonus episodes or specials that we end up doing, if you're after more of us. Alice hosts her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with a fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing outtakes. Get the fuck out of here, Ga Keno Rossini. I want for Maddie.

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