Sounder SIGN UP FOR FREE

A Midsummer Night's Dream by Neil Gaiman (Preview)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Preview for our first ever bonus episode of Unseen Academicals, covering issue 19 of Neil Gaiman's comic series The Sandman: "A Midsummer Night's Dream" (1991). We compare Gaiman's treatment of Shakespeare's titular play to that of Pratchett's Lords and Ladies (1992), while examining the history of Shakespeare in comics and fairy illustration, the Faerie connections to the underworld, Faustian bargains, the history of Puck and his "reverse Pandora," Tolkien's opinions on fantasy and drama, as well as the origins of drag and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and more!

Unock the full episode at: https://www.patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod 

Episode Transcripts and Bibliographies: https://monash.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts  

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com  

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/

A Doctor Prometheus podcast. 

Hey. So you should remember thatin the loads and ladies episodes we mentioned we were going to do a bonusepisode about the midsummer night's dream issue. I've Neil GAIMAN'S SANDMAN comic series.What you're about to hear is the first half an hour or so of that. The whole episode is about two hours long. It's been up on thePatreon page over at Patreoncom Dr Prometheus Pod for a couple of weeks now andif you want to hear the rest of it, then you know what todo. You go over there and sign up and you can get this andyou can also get we mentioned in this episode that els is intending on readingthe rest of the Samn series, so I suggested maybe we could catch upwith her and see how she's feeling as she goes through it. So I'veliterally just uploaded the first part of that, which I'm calling Sandman some nations,in which we go through the first nine issues the master of dreams Arcsand see how else feels about those. You'll hear from this preview, whichgoes through some of the backgrounds about the sad man series in the midsumer streamissue, as well as our feelings about neal gaming in general and a lotof discussion of his collaboration with Terry Pratchett on the novel good Ourman's which wewill be doing a main unseen academicals episode on after we do the death books, which in Xo, once we finished up the witches series and do thedeath books, I'm going to do a couple of the miscellaneous and prediscode novelsand in there I'm intending to do good omens as well. Although we havesome reservations about Gavan's other work, we're both pretty positive about the sad man. So or if you want to read along and revisit those or just hearwhat else and I have to say about them, you can go to thepatreon page and check out those again. That's Patreoncom Dr Prometheus pod all spelledout. So, Dar Ceto, are there should be a link in thedescription anyway. And I realized that, I think our newest patreon Dan inthe preview for the Lords and ladies episode. That's now being replace with the fullpart two. So I want to take a moment again to thank Dantesupport. Unlike the other previews, we put up the full episode of thisone will not be hitting the public feed. You can only get this by goingto Patreon. So if you want to be cool like Dan, youcan go over there and sign up and here the rest of this episode andall the other baronus material that we end up putting up there, as wellas getting all our regular episodes well in...

...advance. Thanks again for your supportand I hope you enjoy the shore. Let's get ready to podcast. WHAT'SDASK? Weel, it's Daskworld podcast analysis. Yeah, so on, Josh andI'm alyss and where the unseen academicals? How you got anything more than that? I just say yeah, but I do that every week. Soyeah, yeah, that's part of the intro. All right, you go. Um. Yeah. So this is going to be our first Baroness Patreonepisode. We're going to be talking about issue nineteen of Neil game and Sandmancomic series, which, I'm adamant is not a graphic novel. Will getto that, but yes, issue nine of the Samni mid someone night's Dreafrom one thousand nine hundred and ninety. Wearing, Shakespeare and his troop ofactors debut the titular play before an audience of fairies in exchange for dreams inspiration. I'm going to put a tax on titular from this point out. I'llfigure out what it is and I'll get back to you. I have startedusing eponymous more because I did realize, like it is just kind of sexist. I just hate the word. No, I just think it's funny when yougot like a you know, you would describe what's her name, Titania, as the titular fairy queen. I'm like Haha, then I'm like,oh wait, it's the Patriarchy your yeah, I think it crept through well,so you get more a literation with eponymus so found sir. Yes,but first, beyond this and laws and ladies, being adaptations and revisions ofmid someone nights dream. You might be asking why we're talking about beyond gameand not Terry Pratchett, because Protchett and gaming they're like literally literary Book Buddies. Yeah, good, good friends. All I can think now is otherliterary best buddies, or or else we got. Who Are you? I'mthinking like Percy, Percy, shelley and love, Byron, Shelley and Byron, Jonathan, friends and and the first...

...of walls who's his buddy does andfriends. And Yeah, Ranson's kind of later, isn't he? Yeah,for sure that buds. Okay, all swear, but Bob Buddies. That'strue. I think Philip K Dick and Rogers Lasnie we're pretty close. SoI got wall now as well. I mean we haven't mentioned this before.That game and I'm Pratchett. We're part of the same sort of conference groupof fantasy writers and fans that would go to conferences together with Mary Gentle whowrote the K book months so that was the the lovecraft society or whatever itwas called. Yeah, so they were part of the same conference group andproject was actually Gamen's first interview in one thousand nine hundred and eighty five.Interviewed him about the color of magic and that's how they met and they sortof hit it off and band became friends from there. And game and beginshis forward to Pratchet's two thousand and fifteen nonfiction collection, a slip of thekeyboard, by recalling a Texas convention handler who referred to Pratchett as a JollyOld Elf, going on to tell of Pratchett's driving. I A driving angeras and he was driven by his anger. And concluding the Pratchett was not ajolly old Alph at all, not even close. He was so muchmore than that. I will say that that's a good epithet if you're goingto have one. I mean this. This tells me that Pratchett's Gat sorrygame is not really vibing with Pratchett's take on the else, because pratchett wouldsay else aren't jolly and Alps are driven by a drive and anger. SoPratchett is quite Alf esque. You're right. HMM. Conversely, in his twothousand and two books, Book Scorn Convention Address. I don't know ifthat's how you say it, but some kind of book convention. Two Thousandand two books are in convention address. Project described Gayman as neither a geniusnor a wizard, but a Condra, who you considered better than wizards andgeniuses, since conjra is work very hard and can't just wave their hands.Gay Practice getting compared to elves, as that's sort of playing them. Histhing. This is going to like the witches and wizzers thing. GAMAN's arereal. He sort of like the witches who do the practical magic. Yeah, know how the spells work and work hard rather than just being these wizardswho go quantum. Thought that was interesting there. Yes, Pratchett says conjurraslike game and spend a lot of time in their youth watching very carefully thebest conjurors of their day. Ay, they seek out old books of trickeryand, being natural conjurors, read everything...

...else as well, because history itselfis just a magic show. I mean, yes, but also come up well. I pointed that out because history itself being a magic show sort ofties into the themes of this comment, as we're going to get to,but also because I think game and paid very close attention to what Progett wasdoing and I sought to reproduce it a lot of the time, even thoughthis issue, which adapts mid someone ars dream, does come out a yearbefore Lords and ladies. So this is one of the occasions where game doesactually pre empty Pratchett, or at least beat him to the publisher. Iassumed they're writing these books around the same time. They're probably hanging out talkingabout the same ideas and then they go away and do them, because thisis also just after they've collaborated on good omens, which we are going todo as part of the main show at some point, I think after thedeath series. But we're not talking about today. Okay, all right,we're talking about mid someone I strain now. We're going to do a whole episodeon that. It's gonna be a whole thing. Did you have anythingjust like it? Well, we can do we go a little bit ofa Preev. Yeah, I read it a while back and I was like, I saw, didn't really like it the first time I read it becauseto me it was sort of a the third like this small God's by aPratchett and American gods by Neil Gamer and then there's this and they're all sortof playing with the same ideas and was sort of the third rehash of thesame ideas by the same authors. I wasn't really into it. Yeah,recently reread it this time after I went through reread all Pratchett's books and Ireally liked it. It's way better than I remembered it. There's a lotgoing on there. Yeah, I read it as a teenager. Love toreread it as like twenty something year old and was like UF, this isrubbish, and then re read it again when the show came out. Actually, this is amazing, but by then I was so deep into dark herostuff that I had a whole new lease on it. Well, that's whatI was also. I was reading it going Alice, this is Alice,that's Alice. And have you seen the TV show yet? No, Isaw a bit. Maddie watched it and I'd subducted in an out. Icannot stand David tennant so interesting, but I will. I will revisit itwhen we do come to doing that's fun. It's not great, it's fun.I think that's the thing. The book is fun to read. Whenyou translate it to a TV show, it's not for everything everyone thinks it'sgoing to be. I think everyone thinks it's going to be a you know, a direct translation. It will be always be just as good. Butactually I think this story works better as...

...a book, whereas there are somebooks that work better as a TV show. Like freaking normal people, man,it was only good as a TV show. Never read the book,anyone? Okay, yeah, I just reread that the other week. Andthis leads us into well, how do we feel about gaming in general?Right, because he's like a big deal in literary studies, like Contemporary LiteraryStudies, especially with the fantasy. Literally, like he's the Guy I'm so clearlywe worship at the altar of new gaming. Right. I don't knowif worship is the right idea. I glanced at it occasionally. Appreciate thatit's a nice altar and that I look at other old those that are betterand should be given more attention. I did see him last year and gotsucked in a little bit and then I was like in the flesh, inthe flesh. I went to the bush fire concert organized by him and AmandaPalmer and Missy Higgins. was meant to be here there, but that odd. I would probably like that on fire if I was there. Shit,it was fine, but I did. Yeah, I don't know, I'dhad a weird feeling. Knowlti my feelings about Neil game and shouldn't come asa shock because I've made some passive aggressive comments ading on the regular podcast.But I'm sure if I met Neil Gaman in real life he's a really nicedude who like and I would never say anything. Me Too, but Ionly say these throwaway jabs at him because he is such a big deal.Right. It's like I'm being overly dramatic and I can't. I kind ofclastic about it. Where it's I'm told he's so amazing. So I dowant to drag him down a peg because I don't think he's as good aseveryone says he's. In fact, I don't think Neal Gayman is a verygood writer m and that's what I've noticed. We're doing the same an issue.I reread the whole Salman series, I rere good omands. I'm ona bit of a revisiting neo gaming kick and I am liking more the secondtime around. But what I'm coming to is I don't think he's a goodwriter. I think he's an ideas man. I think also a lot of hisappeal is in him as a person, because he is such a figure inthe world, whereas other authors are not like and everyone loves Neil.So then the like the ideas and overlook the work. He is the onewho said, you know, ideally you three things. You're on time,you're good and you're nice, but you can get away with any two ofthose, and I think he he does...

...that. You know he's on timeand he's Nice. Yeah, and he's got good ideas. Maybe I'm whenI say ideas like premises. Neil Gaman's premises are great, but what Ifind with almost all his books are they good for the first half and hedoes not know how to finish the story. Did you find that with good urbans? Good Lands, I think, ended well. So I just assumedas I was going through it every bit I enjoyed was written by Pratchett andeverybody didn't was written by now with gaming, and that is a little bit ofa protest thing. But I have done a little bit of research tryingto work out who wrote what and from what I can tell it is majoritiallywritten by Pratchett. Wow, there's conflicting arguments and I cannot find anything tofor new. What I can work out is neal game had the idea forthe book and started writing it and just couldn't work it out. went toPratchett and said I've got this idea for a book but I'm not anyway.Practice said well why? And we write it together. And at the timethey were experimenting with writing, like with computers and online, with the earlyInternet. They were like, what if we do an experiment where we writea book and we email it back and forth and then that is right inthe middle. I've when Pratchett it sorry game and is starting to write thesame man the same and takes up Sam and becomes huge, as we discuss. Soon. So Neil game and got caught up in that, got busywith that and pratchet went okay, we are too busy, I'll just takeit from here. And he writes most of it and from what I've readis he wrote pretty much all of it except for the bits with the thefour horseman. That was sort of game and stuff. But Pratchett wrote allthe stuff with the witches and the kids. I'm sure there's like bits of Burton. They both read each other's but that is what I've been told andwe'll come back to this more thoroughly when we do cover it for the thing. But the bits I didn't really like going back to it with the bitswith the new horseman. That's going to be my one thing I don't likewhen we get there, get them out of the book. They had nothingokay, whereas I found all the stuff with the kids and the witches verygood. But it also it was a lot more bounty. It was alot more funny. It had a distinctly sort of Pratchett style jokes and qualityto it. So I thought it was you could tell when Pratchett was writing, I thought. But that's all about a book that will do in anothersix months. What about NEO gameings other stuff? All voraciously as a teenagerand have never gone back. Some of...

...my memories on them are murky.I think I re read American gods a few years ago and then they gotabout half way through it. Yeah, I think my main beef with newgaming is with American gods, because that's the book that everyone holds up.Yeah, it's a rehash of Terry Pratchett and small Gods and good urmands andI love the ideas. In the same man it's not particularly original. Hedoes the thing where you get to the end and none of it mattered andit just gets diss macketed away, which is how all of gay men's booksend, including the same man and and several arcs within the same man,although I think as the same the same man is great. I've literally justread the whole thing. The same man is better than everyone says it isand everyone says it's the best thing. It's phenomenal. Okay, but hejust has problems with ending stories. He writes himself into these really interesting cornersand then just clears the deck. It's notice that in some of just theissues, and I've only just started. Oh, we'll get ready for it. Yeah, and the same man is playing with more of this thematic thing. It's more about character and theme development than these plot things. But thenyou get into something like American gods and it's just like why, why didI read these hundred pages if at the end it literally resets history? Yeah, and a Nancy Boys, which is the sequel, I think, isone of the worst books I've ever read. I did hate that even as ateenage. Yeah, there are. There are some neal game of stuff. I do like ocean at the end of the lane, ocean at theend of lanes, one I really like because it has an ending that tiestogether authmatically. The other one of his that I really like is never where. I think never where is great. Never was good. Yeah, andI'll good armonds to that now after re reading it. The graveyard book,which is more a kid's book like that, was that was fun as a kid. You know, they are meant for young people, and I meanand we can't put up with them. I think. Yeah, I meanI just reread a carline because I'm having to teach it to a high schoolstudent. And Yeah, note makes such a fuss about caroline. It's justa spooky lady. Right. This is the thing error makes us such afuss about American gods and Caroline. It's like, and I don't think they'reterrible, like I get why people are reading, but it's just like they'renot the best thing ever, and that's where my resentment towards new game andcomes from. Yep, he gets all of this praise and some of ithave not dessert. Yeah, but I...

...do think all these books, withmaybe the exception of a Nanti Boys, they're worth reading. There's interesting stuffin them, there's interesting ideas. I just yeah, I don't think he'sa good novelist. I mean, my main bee for the American gods,I mean you know this, is that the main character is called shadow moon. That is something you would get laughed out of an amateur writing class forif you came in and said then shadow moon walked across the room. Youwould get told immediately, like change your protagonist name. Absolutely you would.The other thing that still shits me about that is like when he's wife diesor whatever, she's sucking someone's Dick and like bites the penis off and dieswith it an amount. I'm like, come on, I'll design line.American gods. Yeah, do we need that? I mean maybe I've pickedit up from the show. It's something the original book, but I rememberbeing appalled. So I don't think that's in the book. But that doesseem like something which I watched the first couple episodes of the show and wentnurp. So you yeah, that's how our general vibes on gaming. Nothave favorite, not our favorite, not my least favorite, but someone Ido have a grudging thing againsst but also one of the things I really likeis the Sam man and I really like this midsum an ice stream issue.I think it's really great. But Neil game and comes from comics. Thisis like where you say he's not a writer, like American gods is essentiallyhis first novel twenty years into his career, because before that he has the comicstuff, which is all collaborative. He has good urmands, which isco writing with Terry Pratchett, and maybe Pratchett wrote most of it. Andthen you have never wear, which was based on a series that he wrotewith Lenny Henry, which is really fucking weird, and then he novelized thisseries and then he's doing comics all through the N s. So it's allthis collabrity stuff. And then coraline and American gods are like his first actualnovels about whin he's such a big name that he's sort of almost too bigto fail. Yeah, on this, by the way, when I sawhim at the bush fire benefit thing, he read some stories and they werenice stories, but they were just like premises. They didn't have endings.They were like yeah, they were just ideas that were interesting. So justto Reider at your point from before, yeah, that's what I've found thatwith all his yeah, short stories as well the fun, but they don'tknow where. Well, I'm a good bits in American gods are all thelittle what are the words? Where the vignettes about the other gods that aren'tactually part of the plot, but it's...

...just like, Oh, here isthe African sex godss eating a guy with a vagina and it's like that's acool scene, but it doesn't have to go anywhere because it's just this thing. And there's a lot of stuff like that in the same man as well. As we're reading the same I'm like, Oh, this is you were justredoing American gods. You took those ideas and what about in America?But yeah, game and makes his name in comics. He's I'm not toosure the details, but I think he is. He's like the prodigy ofAlamore, who's the big guy who he rewrites viva vendetta and watchman and it'sone thing and everything revolutionizes comics. And then game and sort of a protegeof him and comes in writes Black Orchard, which is a DC superhero that takesin kind of a weird dark fantasy morrid which I'm halfway through reading thatat the moment, and then does the Sam man, which we're talking aboutnow, and then then blows up. Yeah, in the same book conventionaddress where Pratchett describes him as Achondra, Prochett says the effective game and workon the comic world was akin to that of Tolkien on the fantasy novel andthat everything afterwards was in some way influenced. And well, I do think that'strue. I think the comparison to Talkin is also entirely misleading and inaccurate. Jack Kirby, who created the xmen, the fantastic for the hulk, ironman, though Lokey captain, America at Man, the Wasp, thewinter soldier, Black Panther, the silver SURFA, Nick Feury, the scarletwhich vision and Grout, among others, is the tolken of the fantasy world. Right. Yeah, agree, he also creates devil dinosaur and Dr Druid. So here they weren't all it's but I am keen to get a copyof devil dinosaur and see what all that's about. Oh and I still haven'tfinished back going off about Jack Kirby, apparently because he also embedded literary andmythological figures like low key right, including loose fur and Dr Faustus and Oberon, into the Marvel Universe, not the DC universe, which is where Samand is. So Neil gaiman's versions of loose far and Oberon are not thesame ones. But even that Jack Kirby already did it in the Marvel universe. Already. Jack Kirby also created the s version of the same man forDC, who becomes a major character in one of the Samman Arcs of Gamers. Think so. Yeah, he's the talking although there's a quote on Wikipediaor about Jack Kirby. The quotes a...

...guardian article which calls Ja Kobe theWilliam Blake of comics. Trust all this weird. I don't really get it. I think I might have something for this. Okay, yeah, Imean the reason William, I mean he was insane. But the reason blake, you know, is is whenever I teach it, the students like Ididn't really like the poetry or the drawings, but and it's like no, no, that's not the point. The point is he revolutionized this new wayof merging poetry and art together using like chemicals and this strange process you likeput a chemical and page and then engraved it and then like set it allup. So No, drawing by Blake is never the same. And No, and that means no poem is ever really the same because the image changesthe meaning of the poem. Certain things are darker or bigger or changed,and like you can say how that doesn't matter. But also it does forsome of them, the way Blake is trying to write. So I don'tknow if there's anything there about, you know, revolutionizing the way that weexperience or respond to or engage with these art forms. Does that give yousomething? Yeah, I mean that's that sounds interesting, but it also soundsmore like a game and Sam and kind of thing. Manage if everything Jacobycould. You're saying he's like the Tolkien. So he changed the way we engagewith them. He made it. Well, it's more that he justhe set the standard of like these are the archetypes, this is how youdo superhero comics, and then everything is a response and anything that deviates fromit is sort of position in response to it, like this is an antisuperhero comic. But I guess what with the talking of Paris and it's liketalking established the archetypes. He was like this is what else are, thisis what dwarves are, this is what hobbits are. The he gave thelanguage of it and said this is what it all looks like. And theneveryone else who's going and writing all these post talking as fantasies, playing aroundwith his tool box, which I feels like what Kurber did, Kurby wentthis is what superheroes are these, this is who the superheroes are, thisis what superheroes do. And then superhero comics are just reiterating on the Kurbymold, whereas like Blake doesn't really do that. He doesn't create like amythology or an archetype that. He does create an entire mythology. Actually,now I think about it, so it kind of works. It's just notincredibly influential like it does. The Byron doesn't then take that mythology. ButI mean everyone's obsessed for trying to understand Blake's mythology, and my theory ishe was actually insane and you're never going...

...to get there like this man stoodall the streets of London staring at a tree going there are angels in it, and everyone went ire. He's right. While speaking of insane, I wouldargue that game is more king to being the Michael Moorecock of comics,in that he ushered in a darker, more artistic new wave. Do youknow Michael Moorecock? I know the name and after filling in. Well,I mean if you're doing dark here is you got to know Michael Moorecock becausehe does eleric. Oh, okay, okay, I know. Yeah,yes, he is also the author of New Worlds, which is the ScienceFiction magazine in the new way in the S and seventy. So he's likeas science fiction and fantasy is changing into this new wave mold, he's sortof the directing it. So I'm actually, I'll argue, rather than Gayman,he is closer to what's his name, Alan Moore. We mentions that,the watchman swamp thing, leaving story. Gentleman Guy. This is the connectionto like being insane, because Alan Moore thinks he's a litteral wizard.I know, yeah, he's maybe more the more cock. I don't knowwho gaming is exactly. He's got some Philip K dickish qualities, but Dick'searlier. Maybe there isn't a real analogy because these are all people who havetheir individual lives and history doesn't work out like that. He's Percy shelley kindof figure. Like Percy Shalley was experimenting with ideas, but he really struggledto like finish stuff off and like finish off his story, like think of. For me he's unbound. That's meant to be his masterpiece and X rayand for a track. That's true. He does the wipe away. Yeah, well, I mean they you've just he's Barron, right, he's acool thinking the leather jacket Byron. Yeah, yeah, who, the cults ofcelebrity is bigger than he is actually. Yeah, okay, so he's Barron. Also, Michael Moorecock wrote a novel that I haven't read, butI will. That is called glory honor, which I sent you a link forward. By the sense of your action, you do not look at it.I don't think. I have no memory of this link. Ah,so, Glory Ana, as I again I haven't read. It is anovelization of about Gloriana from the fairy queen. Now I remember this link right,and apparently one the other world fantasy award and things. So I willread that and report back at some point.

Okay, but unnecessary analogies aside,game and Salmon is one of the most influential comics in the medium's history. Probably, I was gonna say, the for for modern comics. Definitely. I again. I don't think you can say, like Jack Kirby andthe xmen and stuff like is less influential. But as far as comics coming thisserious literary medium, Sandman is Ground Zero and midsummer night stream is I'vewritten perhaps there, but is its most influential issue. So it won theworld fantasy short story award in one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, whichis the only comic ever to do so. Since it's rumored they change the rulesafterwards to rule out your graphic novels from being nominated for the literary award. That's a bullshit. Well, they didn't. I was reading somewhere todayactually, that they didn't change the rules. They just came out and clarified andsaid no, comics were never meant to be nominated for this but eitherway they let it slip through. It one and they said never again.So it was the first comic book to Win The World Fantasy Short Story Awardand will be the final one to do so because apparently they said, well, comic books are alligible and other category, but no comic books have ever beennominated for that category either. So there is a genre prejudice going on. They're absolutely in the script for the issue, which I cannot get tellingelse this before the thing, but apparently there is a copy of the scriptin the deluxe absolute sandman edition, a copy of the script for the midsumernight stream issue, which I really wanted to get for this podcast, butI've been going back and forth for over a month now with the library peoplewho tell me it doesn't exist. So if anyone out there has the absolutesay man has a copy of this script, because we're in lockdown right now,I can't just go out to a bookstore and try and find it andalso these absolute Saman collections are like a hundred dollars. But if anyone hasthat can email me confirm it exists. Maybe so me a copy. Wecould maybe add an adendum or something in later, because I would really liketo check that out. That's unseen. academicals pot at gmailcom. But apparentlyin the script this is a secondhand quotation. I'm here game and says to theartist, Charles ves says this is a really fascinating comic to write.I mean either it'll work really well or it will be a major disaster,not just a disaster. I mean people will talk about this in the listof great interesting failures failures forever. But I see things like cough, youcall the hulk versus the thing and D...

...pop up graphic novel with Free Songbookand interesting failure. You should have been there when game and invest made idiotsof themselves on Samman. Or, like I say, it may work.It's a million to one shot, but it just might work. And Ibring that up because, as disco of readers, we know the million toone shots turn up nine times out of ten. Really, this was asafe bet they were going for here and obviously turned out really well for them. Became the biggest critically acclaimed comic of all time. I think we needto read all other gate game and quotes out and Gayman's voice from here onout as well. Go for it, he'd but like this is a reallyfascinating comic to write like. He really a nunciates and gets his tongue aroundall the words. I yeah, no, he does, because I've listened toa couple of audio books. He does a lot of the audiobooks forhis our book and there's actually an audio adaptation of the Samman that they didlike the first arc up to this. This was the last issue they didand they're making parts three, two and three at the moment. Yeah,he's the narrator on that as well. So he does have that very clickytongue, sort of soft where he's like here, where we're going. Imean people will talk about this in the list of great interesting failures forever.Yes, that Weird Kate. It's where he drops him. Yeah, breaks, yeah, but yes, Neil gaiman and Charles vess mids of night streamis the most critically celebrated comic issue ever written. But what do we thinkabout it? Alice, in honor of the route pauls drag race recap podcast, could I get your name? Two things you like about the issue andone thing you did not. Please say this bit. Did prepare wrote theroles, but the other way okay, no, I can do it onthe spot. I liked the art. Is that allowed? Yeah, Ireally liked the art and I don't know, man, I just I get reallyoff on seeing Shakespeare represented as a literary character and other works as actualShakespeare. So that was fun and I and here we go, am goingto break the rules again. I liked the fact that they do mid someonenights dream and it's all matter and fun. Like I guess this is three thingsyou'd like. Yeah, nothing, you didn't like. Um, no, I enjoy it. That's pretty good. Right, thank it. Yeah,you've got six things you didn't like. No, no, I like thisand we'll get into the things I liked and didn't like. But Ido have to ask. I've reread the...

...same answers as twice. I've readit. I've read this issue a couple of times. This is your firsttime and you've read send men Virgin. Yeah, I've done the same thingas people from comic fans from ages passed done, which is try and getEllis into comics by giving her a copy of Neil game and smidsommer night's streamand tell her to read the same man. That's that's what everyone does. Sodo you? How do you read comics in general? I did asa teenager and I've never done since. Right, I mean I got Iwouldn't say I became prejudice, I just was I'm going to read the realbooks. Now, I'm going to be a literary studies person. And nowI am back to the fucking girl links, because you've started reading the actual samnseries. Have Yeah, I read the first one last night after Iread Kelly op yeah, cool. As you go through, I mean maybewe could revisit this and we could do a little very us catch up withAlice as she goes through the series, after every major arc, not inlike this much detail with research and everything, just we chat. I say,how did you feel about this, because I think there's some interesting stuff. They're a lot of Satan stuff and there. That's why I'm doing itfast things. Yeah, so I think it'd be interesting to catch up withyou actually go through. I think it's the first eight issues, is thefirst arc, up to when death is introduced. So when you get tothe knork with death and it hit me up and we'll jump back in andmaybe we can just put those out as you go through and maybe you'll loseinterest, but we'll do it. Why you still maintain it? As forme, two things I like. I love the meditextual layers of this,which is obviously just what it's doing, but I think it does it reallywell, that you've got the play within the play, within the player withinthe play, and then the comic as a metacomic UN players and all ofthat. And as he says in that quardit is ready earlier it could havebeen an absolute pretentious disaster and I think he absolutely nails it like weird sisters. Like how weird sisters we think is a disaster. I don't think it'sa disaster. Just think it's kind of land he simple. Yeah, no, this is definitely more engaged than weird sisters. Yeah, I don't likethis as much as lords and ladies, but it's closer to that than weirdsisters. The other thing I like is pucks monolog, the treatment of putsa Longolog and all the implications which builds off the metafictional things. We're goingto talk a lot about that as we go but that scene in particular isleft a pretty big impression on me in...

...general. I think going back toit I was like I didn't realize how much that had really carried through intothe way I look at literature and things. So we'll talk a bit more aboutthat as we go. The one thing I dislike. I'm like you. I was struggling to find something and I've said on I think some ofthe hamlet stuff is a the hamlet stuff is a bit heavy handed. Okay, which is sort of country because I've got the full quote in here somewhere. But Damon says he submitted this, this issue to his editor, thescript for it, and normally, he said, he doesn't get much freeback. Normally they just go to the end. They got yet great prove it,sent it through to the artist and this was one of the few timesthey send it back and said change something about it. He's editor, KarenBurger, and inspired the hamlet twist after she criticized the first draft of theissue for lacking a human center of any kind and being of interest. I'mgoing to Shakespeare's cause, which is why we were into it without it justnow hot for us. Yeah, so he kind he left almost everything inthe script exactly the same, except for the addition of the six panels thatreveal Shakespeare's career from hamlet's perspective, and that theme is Great and where.We'll talk about that. But I think get having hamlets stair into the cameraand explain the moral of the issue when it was implied already. I dothink that is a bit heavy handed when everything else is so nuanced and soperfect. So is it just because he had to add it last minute andhe was like dumb? Well, no, he thinks it's great. He's thinksthat was the best advice I ever got, because without that this comicwouldn't work for me. That's the bit where I go. It's sort ofa bit clunky. I think it's fine. I think it ruins the comic.I just don't think it's as deft as every like everything else is soimplicit. And then that is literally explaining on that actually interesting. You bringit up, and I brought this up before, but in upstart crow itends with hamlet's death and it's far too heavy handed. It just can destroysthe show because it just says goes from this lighthearted, funny comedy with allthis metal stuff to pay introduns like, Oh God, so yeah, theyare patent h yeah. So, given that we've been talking about the sameansers, we should probably explain what the same man series is, and Ifor those who don't know, the Salmmon is a comic series by Neil Gaiman. It's about the dream God morpheus. He has lots of names. Morpheusis sort of the main one he's referred...

...to, so that's what I'm goingto call him. It's about the dream God morpheus, who is one ofthe seven endless along the death, destiny, delirium, desire to spare and thelast one, which is a bit of a spoiler, so I won'tname them as Alice is going through it. But morpheus is also considered the princeof stories, so there's a lot of Meta fictional stuff going on andreferences to other writers, including Shakespeare obviously, who first appears in the same manas a struggling playwright in issue thirteen, which is called men of good fortune. You've read this one as well? Yeah, can I say like Imean I enjoyed Misione, I dream and I get it all, butI was really that for men of good fortune. If you tried to sellme on the series with someone, I dream actually it was the men ofgood fortune, I was like Um and okay, yeah, do you wantto explain what what men are good fortune is? Yeah, okay, somen of good fortune is about a man who's like death isn't real. I'mtrying to remember. As a few weeks again, did you want me todo it? You do it please. So I'm gonna good fortune and theseare this and mid some of my stream up, both standalone issues. Youcould start with these two, and most people sort of do because this isthe salad point. Yeah, so dream is this endless dream? God,so he although the main samemn series is set in contemporary times, in thes when it's being written, there are these flashback issues. Essentially, dreamand all the endless have been around the.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (13)