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8 – Mort

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We kick off our examination of the Death series with 1987's Mort, exploring evolving representations of Death, fantastical and comedic bildungsromen, Dickensian parody and subverted heroes' journeys.

We are back finally with a new full length episode, beginning the death series with mort or very. If you're getting this on the regular feed, we were getting the preview first, although the full episode is already available on our patreon page, which I have changed now. It is now just patreoncom unseen academicals. There's no more Dr Prometheus. I will update all the links and things in the episode descriptions when I have a moment, but yes, Patreoncom unseen academicals is where you'll find us now. And for those of you who didn't listen to the last what you've been reading episode where I explain some of the updates we made. Yes, the patroons been rejigged. It was a slight price increase to the regular support, which is now ten Australian dollars, so still cheaper for people overseas, and that gets you the advanced episodes. So when the regular figets the preview, you get the full one. That's probably going to be about a week in advance. I think that's what we can make work at the moment, although everyone who had already signed up to the Patreon to support us and unseen academicals has maintained the cheaper price of six Australian dollars and just to tie in with the early discworld novels per occupation with the number eight, we have made it so that there are eight spots in that smaller in that cheaper tier. I think there's still a couple of spots left if you want to go grab one of those. The way it works is it's just a limit of eight people. So there's all the people have already signed up in there and then once it hits eight it's full, unless someone leaves then you can grab of one. But it's sort of there to reward the people who signed up early to support the podcast. So thank you very much. Speaking of which, we have a new patron supporter that we want to thank. Thank you to Adele. I'm going to say it's a dull like the singer. So thank you very much for your support and to everyone else who has supported the podcast. Thank good all. Imagine if it was a real Adele wiss world. It's DIS world podcast analysis. Yeah, so I'm Josh and I'm Alice. Still you're still else. I'm still out, I'm still Josh and we are still the unseen academicals to spite sort of a lengthy hiatus, although it wasn't too lengthy. I think the highest was actually between parts one or two of CARPA jugger and then I think the second part of copy Dugom was only like a month or so ago. There was meant to be a third part of CARPA JUG on. It's become a whole thing that maybe I will become a year's long project that I am investigating after another vampire man confirm my future, maybe in statistical vampire analysis. We will see. So I want to come back and do the episode about the things Vampires know at some point, but it's been long enough. I want to move on with my life. You guys want to actually hear about practice. And so we are back to begin the death series with the fourth discob book, Mork from one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven. Wearing death takes a young apprentice who's valuing of humanity and attractive young princesses throws the Kingdom and was Stolat and the very fabric of history itself into turmoil, leading to a showdown between master and apprentice. We learned a little bit about each other and themselves along the way and we're going to be using the book to explore historical and literary depictions of the Angel Death, the concept of the buildings or man dickensie and parody and the heroes journey. Also think we can dispense with the tributes to the rupules drag as podcast from here and I think we've turned this into our own being. So thank you for your service and inspiration. But could you name some number of things that you like? Like a set breaking the rules and just doing whatever I want it? But did I like and not like? Okay, it was fun. It was a fun little jaunt. It was easy to read and when you're reading heavy stuff, it was nice and I wasn't like a Joshua, you're making me read this. I was like, Oh, this is a pleasant book to read before bed. That's where you say about every book except for masquerade. My jogulin was a bit of a drag at the end. I was like a home pracious, your favorite and you loved it. Yeah, like it was fun to Unpack, but reading I was like, Oh, this just keeps going. There's a longer one, but yes, more. It is not a nine hundred page book. About the history of protestantism. So, but you see things that she's like yeah, we yea anyway. So I enjoyed that. However, and I'm glad you put this in the notes, because then I felt crazy. I'm like, is this just dickens with fantasy and it is just sticking on and see, because, let the boy thing was what tipped me off. And then I saw it there and I'm like right, I'm not insane. It was probably doing this because buildings rerem blah, blah, blah, and I will admit, they got a little bought. It just just got a little bored. I'm like, Garrikay, a showdown with death school, very fun premise. I'm a little bored now. These are tropes I'm familiar with, because we're seeing the tropes at the start, whereas I've read them my whole life in other forms that I'm back at them and a kids books. So I was a little boy. Right. Yeah, there's no way to teach kids about predestination as well. That's the other thing also. Yeah, I think I have a similar take on this for to you. I like that it is a short little jaunt. It's very compact, you know, but at the same time. Yeah, I did find the one drawback...

...of this book is that it's a bit simple. MMM, it's a good premise. Do Not Pratchett do more with it? I don't. Well, I think he does as he goes on. Okay, through the through the dead series, and for its time and everything, this is great. Like this is only the fourth book in the series right, Disclo it isn't even really I think, yet. But previously, like looking back on a like this, would have been in my top like four or five discworld books, and then now I don't think that's the case. I think you'd probably be, you know, pushing to be in they in the top twenty or top fifteen. I still think it's really good. Just it doesn't go as many places as the later discobre books or even something like equal rights, which is the same sort of idea and premise, and I think this is a more tightly plotted book than that. Like it's yeah, that a developed better written, but I don't think it's as ambitious and grand in it. It's actual like thematic investigation of things, and I just like equal writes more. But I think that book is doing more, whereas this is a fun story, as he said. I wonder if he had of expended on these things whether it would have, think, got ruined, like it got too complicated it too quickly, like. So maybe the compactness is a good thing. I don't know. I kept going back. No, this is a good book. When I say, you know, I wouldn't make my top twenty, that is all the discworld books bar like you know, a handful I like more than all other books, so that this is not a top tier but maybe a second tier one of them. Still means it is. I like it more than most book. Where we do differ, I think the fight between the two deaths at the end. It's fucking cool. Yeah, well, you like that. I'm Shit Board. I'm bored. At the end of the avengers movies I'm bored. It's not the actual fire, but it's more just the the idea of you got there, you got the sword death that, you got the scythe depth and they're just going to fucking fight wick it. I love that shit all the should I like does that? will be reading protestantism Polish where we didn't put this in the what you've been reading, but I have begun a reread or a red listen to paradise lost in preparation to listen through your series that you did in your eyes of the Devil's Party podcast for you, where you go through it, and I was like, well, I want to listen to that, but I better, you know, touch up on paradise lost again. And you know, I've only got through the first three books that everyone reads and then stops, but that's where I'm up to, having started yesterday. Well, that's too quick. Yeah, but I'm going to just smashing through it and before I've read it before, and then I'll water. You know, to me is like, Josh, that's a nuts of that's an offense. But yeah, okay, whatever. You're going to explain it all to me. This is just to reget my familiarity. So when you're on the podcast saying when this happens, I'm like, Oh, I do remember when that happens. There's a lot of this shit in there with the flaming swords and the death and there's like castles, water on fire. That's not what I love that paradise lost. It's the complicated arguments, it's the amazing poetry. Is that many of having sex in a Bush like, yeah, I'm listening to this while I'm smashing through the endgame without ring, and I'm doing that and I'm fighting demigods. Meanwhile, you know, I got Milton in my ear go and then pandemonium rose up from the the blood lake and formed out of fire, and then Satan took his throne with the sword and then he dived and fucking cut through sin. I'm like fuck, yeah, sorry. You see the difference in what Josh and I look for a look for, but it's good shit. So you you being like, Oh, the for did so, it's so good it's Milton was doing this shit. Yeah, so I think that's cool. I also when I was like thinking, you know, if I'm forced to pick something specific other than I generally like the book, I think it's a good book. I like Kelly, I like her character and she's all of pratchets with him. Yeah, all of Pratchetts women are the same character and he props to that in a couple of them as I think it's in the introduction to nation, which I recently re read, one of his nondisco novels, where he goes. You know, I was trying to write a parody of like a soppy Victorian girl. But she just turned into the same lady I always write who which just that's what happens when I write female characters these is at ware. But again, this, this is an early example of that, and I do like that. You know, she's just like Nah, I'm not dead. That like. I like that she's a certive of you know, going and getting the wizard and making people look at her and the the the image of the Kingdom with all the posters up of her face of things. I like just that conceit of the way she tries to hang on to life and goes about that. I find that to take her out how old she is and how old the wizard she goes to get is. It might be in the book, but it just didn't sit well because he's like off, he's watching a change, and I'm like yeah, I guess in my head I pictured him as older, but he is like sort of a flunked out. I think he's meant to be younger, but I think, you know, she's meant to be like sixteen or something. All right, HMM, only that that there's a different time. What can I say? Well, also that is not out of place in fantasy what patchet is parodying. So some of that is just that is the trope of the thing he's dealing with rather than, yeah, constructing it. But yeah, so I didn't bother going and getting any sort of secondary reviews for this. But in his pocket guid which we like to consult at the star these things and dream. But like gives more his first five out of five rating for the discworld series, describing it as another step forward and the most tightly and satisfyingly constructed of the novels to date, which, yeah, I think we can agree with like, even if I think equal rights is more ambitious and and a better book. Call I like it more. My problem with equal...

...rights as he just runs out of ideas at the end and does that and they lived happily ever after, whereas he are like, the plot is tight. He had a good excels breadsheet for this. Yeah, this book is well, it hasn't held up to my recent revisitings. This is, as I said, was I often considered one of my favorites and is generally considered one of the better and, if not better, one of the most significant discworld novels, as Mark Borrows explains in his biography, the magic of Protchett what is often consider the strongest of the series among those who prefer the earlier books. In man he does actually disagree with that Calam and. He says it's often considered one of the strongest of the series and is record and is regularly recommended as a good started point for newcomers, although he notes it tends to be overlooked by critics compared with more serious works such as equal rights. And I was surprised to see that there isn't a whole lot of scholarship about this book. It is sort of mentioned in a lot of them, but there's no real analysis. A lot of the analysis seems to be on the the sequel and Reap Amand, which is more thematically rich. But the idea that this is overlook compared to equal rights, I don't think it's true because, as we said, no one's really talking about equal rights, though I will say the death books and I imagine all the discol books, with the exception maybe some of the watch novels and small Guardsen things. Compared to the witches series, there is like a fraction of the scholarship on these death books available. So hopefully no to put two or three parts. I'm trying to keep things contained and concise and there's not all these literary traditions to go off and down, are you? We're going to do a bit of the historical stuff, with the depictions of death and things, but that is less to do with this book and more as they set up for the entire series itself, rather than the witch's books, where it was we did the history of fairy tales in one book and then it was vampires and it was this. The the concepts of death that we're looking out here can be applied and carry through the the entire series, or at least that is my hope. Do you say this is a good place for people to start with the discosition, which is granny so much more fun? MMM, that's interesting. Like deaths, an interesting is a kind of patriarch uckle character who takes him on under their wing and is like come on, son, I'll learn your things, whereas Grannie's like really well rounded and like she is a much more interesting character who really makes those books what they are. Kind of think where's this was for? I think if you're a kid, this is a good place to start, which is might be a bit much for you, but yeah, the the sort of the very basic thing I want to say is it's sort of like, you know, you would give a young boy this or a young girl equal rights, which you know all you know people who are aged. Those are things. But what this book does have going for it is the big fight between the two angel of death with the sword and side at the end, like I barely registered it. If you've got a kid who's interested in like fantasy books and you're going from like that, way, he's read Lord of the Rings, like that's going to connect with him rather than the witches talking about social prejudices and literary history, you know. So it depend. Obviously it depends who your audience is, but I think, yeah, this could be a good starting point. I'm just trying to think which book would I actually start people wolf, because Pratchett says himself, says do not start at the first hurt. They are different and they are not as good. Yeah, and actually maybe he says equal rights and more for a boy or a girl. Yeah, I mean it depends who your audiences if you had someone who's coming from a literary direction. I'd give them small gods, but as someone coming from a fantasy background, this is probably a good a good starting point. The other reason why this is significant is that more was a pivotal point in both the discord series and Pratchett's life. This was his first book to chart in the Best Sello list, going to number two. The follow up sorcery, which is generally consider not one of the best disc wold books, but that was the first one to go to number one, which generally you said this with albums and stuff. It's the one after the big one that everyone likes that everyone then goes buys some charts. So we have that effect that the reasons a sorry went to number one is because everyone bought more than liked it. And this was the book that allowed him to quit his job as a journalist and become a professional writer full time. And he was also able to add an extension to his house, which he called the more twin. All right, like, come on, the fact that he owned a house and whatever, whatever kinds of change you. How do you own a house? US? Yeah, a lunch jobs. I worked for jobs, not one as a fucking journalist. Project had a career, though. How old was he? Oh, I'm not sure we can do the math on this. So more comes out in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven, because you've been writing books for ten years before this. To him, sure, he's born in forty eight, for forty eight, fifty sixty eight are he's almost forty forty. All right, yeah, all right, well, yeah, because he started goally. But yeah, I god, I hope. I mean, I don't aspire to home ownership, but you know, forty forty would be rough. If well, will end. But yeah, anyway, yeah, you are not. You are in a house as a PhD student in their looks pretties and if I had my time again. So yes, Neil Gaiman, you know, there's a main character of this podcast describes more as projects masterpiece in the sense of a work presented to prove an apprentice was now our master of their craft. I agree.

Yeah, that's a pretty good description, and you can't really argue with ativen that this was the one that made him a professional project. Disagreed. Appealing to his one thousand nine hundred and ninety three young adult novel, Johnny and the dead, which is a ridiculous claim, because not only is that not the like pivotal discward novel, but there are three Johnny novels and that is the worst of them and no one cared and I don't know why he would pick that book. Just thing. This book is also foundational for Pratchett Scholarship, with Butler's article analyzing, more as a comedic bill dunserman being the the first. I think I've been saying first, but of course any time you make a claim there's something else. But the first significant piece of Pratchett academia is published on this there were some articles of bits and pieces earlier, but that is the first like proper full, polished academical article on pratice work. So this book is foundational for the death series, for practice life and for Pratchett academia itself. And we'll get into what a comedic bit of Dungs reroomin is later, but first let's talk about death. I don't want to go in as deep as we did with the witches stuff in the literal series one because I'm overdoing that, but also like that's what the witches series was about, right. The witches series wanted you to think about the history of fairies and the history of fairy tales and death is not about the history of death. It's about these metaphysical conundrums and idea. So that's that the matic core of the death series. But I do want to do a bit of a broad overview of representations of the edge of death and and see what's going on here and sort of carry this forward as we go into the other death levels so as project acknowledges. In the folklore of discworld representations of death have been widely vary, from the Egyptian Jackal headed God Anubis to South American Jaguar and Eagle Hybrids and the many armed Hindu Goddess Kali being some of the notable examples. In her article on death and the maiden and the guilty of literature collection, Stacy Haynes also adds the Greek Hades, who was a bearded warrior, and early Christian conceptions of a sword wielding angel like at the end of more, who they claim is gets mixed up with Uri, or the angel of repentance who stands at the gate of Eden with a fiery sword. But, as I mentioned before, that this idea of the sword wielding angel, you know is in paradise, lost of things. So there is a literary tradition of representing death as a sort biblical yeah, it's around the modern abrahamic idea of the angel of death, or was first described in chapter six of the Christian Book of revelation, which was allegedly described by Jesus, who is discipled, John, who's like the put allegedly, I am thanks. I looked and behold a pale horse and his name that sat on him was death. And how followed with him and power was given unto him to kill with sword and with hunger and with death and with beasts of the yeah, and that's revelation six eight there. This is when the the seals are opening in the apocalypse is coming on of the Horseman Confront. So project and Simpson claim in the Foco of discworld that death wears a crowd of of the sword and revelation. But it's pestilence who has the crown and the burrow. And in the translation I'm using at least, which is the King James One from my fancy study Bible, death is not actually wielding us. All right, it's the armies of hell that follow him who are allowed to kill with sword. The this just didn't even stick out to me. Is Important. But the sword, clearly, because what we have at the end of the book is the traditional death versus the modern death, which is something that will be get revisited again in reprimand and hog father as well. We get death confronting older, more primordial versions of death. So this is an ongoing theme. Yes, okay, see, I was like predestination, let's go. No, sort swords take press. Fair enough. Well, we'll get some predestination. I do. I'm sure I have a note in here where says Alice rents about calvinism. The other no, I'm ready sorts first people. So yeah, the this Biblical Foundation for the Crowned Sword Building Death is maybe not there, but, and I only point that out because this is the image that Pratchett appeals to as the foundation for his image of death. Nevertheless, death in a crown is a common image, right. Get Milton's death, who is depicted in paradise, lost as the offspring of Satan, and his daughter sin, who sprang out of his head when he came up with the notion of rebelling against God, is described as a faceless shadow with what seemed on his head the likeness of a kingly crown. Do you want to add that itself is an allusion to zoosh? Explain. Yeah, someone pops out of zoo his head. Is it Ar Amous? And this is like a whole creation thing. So yeah, he takes that and and makes it this and Milton. There's always this tension between the classical and the religious, so he's kind of like combining the two here as well. There's nothing really about like death, because Hadis and things is death. But the idea of someone spawning from the head, yeah, and anything with the crown. And I think at this point it is just the idea that death wears a crown or they got a crown. Yeah, but yeah, Protchett actually makes a couple of explicit references to Milton in reference to death in his essays and speeches and things...

...towards the end of his life. So in his accepted speech for his honorary doctor at from Trinity College in Dublin, which that's something we mentioned in the I think it was unseen. academical was the first episode of the PODCAST. We were like I've prochect got off at a doctor or degree. He would probably refuse it. He did actually have one one. It does actually have one from Trinity College in Dublin. So we were wrong. But we were also right because four decades before that, any time he got offered one, he would respond by returning an offer for an honorary doctor or at to the Unseen University and Discworld, to whoever offered it to him. And then finally he accepted this one from trinity in Dublin. Quite waitings that one. Yeah, yeah, he did lectures and things there. Yees, seeing he's accepted speech for this doctor at. He claimed that when in produs lost, Milton Satan stood at the pit of Hell and raged at heaven, he was merely a trifle myft compared to how he felt upon receiving his Alzheimer's diagnosis. HMM, this is to say, we've been ranting about paradise lost and things because we're romantic scholars and you're doing your thesis on it, but here we have definitive for the Pratchett read and was aware of Paradise lost. I mean, of course he was actually yeah, but here is him actually saying no. This is an image that I associate. So, yeah, in the Middle Ages. This image of death from revelation becomes combined with the image of father time, descended from the Greek God Titan or Chronos, right satin, who is also associated. He's the God of Time and agriculture right there. Passing of the seasons, Yep, got often depicted as an old man carrying a site and an hour gass. So it is bugged me. And the METALLICA Song, the four horsemen. They there's the as the bridge with the galloping riff and they list off all the horsemen. They do famine and pestilence and war and then they say time instead of death, and that's always bugged me. But there is, you know, there's some precedents there in that death and time are associated through Chronos. So that solves that age old thrash fatal mystery dating back to one thousand nine hundred and eighty three. With that one there prior to more METALLICA, we're doing the real synthesis. I'm getting nothing for Valis and giving you nothing. So yeah, we're we have the Christian version mixing with the Greek version of father time. And then finally Protchett and Simpson explain that. I'm Middle Ages. Morbid interest in physical decay, which saw death depicted with the appearance of a rotting corpse with a split valley, peeling skin and crawling worms, wearing, if anything, a shroud, eventually reduced him to the skeletal form we know today, which he made up first baby. Yeah. Well, Haydn's attributes this to ongoing plagues and a rise in Memento Mori imagery. Right, that Shit. And then, apparently, I think I'm getting this from prejudice, Simpson Steel, but the skeletal image of death was then largely promoted through fifteen century Italian paintings and eventually adapted into a Dutch illustrated version of the Bible. So this is a, you know, five or six hundred year old image and concept that we're playing with here of the skeleton death. But that's pretty recent compared to the one fifteen hundred years of Christian revelation before that, where, you know, it's this ghostly specter. HMM. And their chapter on death and work from the guilty of literature collection, Nicki and Moody speculates that the image of the grim rebar aided Pratchett's popularity, appealing to the medieval pre occupation of s fantasy and science fiction. Right. So compare this to Neal Gayman's postponding death in the Sandman series, which I was a thing you started and then we we never forget that, I promise you're right. There on to hear, but on that that one episode we did about the the first arc of the Salman series. Right, you were saying will death this manic pixie dream girl, which games presenting that as a subversion of fantasy chair. I mean it does play into, you know, female depictions of death which you know follow a different tradition, whereas Moody, saying that Prejudy is playing into that giant angel with the sword thing by having a skeleton be one of his sort of main characters. There we have that appeal to a fantasy crowd while also undermining it. Did go prejudge. But in the the conclusion into their description of this history of of depictions of death, and why I sort of wanted to bring it up here, is project. Simpson described discworld's death as taking parts of all these different traditions and piecing them together at the idea that discworld is made up of images from our world. Right, that's project, literally saying death is a pastiche. Yeah, they well, is a selfformed pastiche. So, which is such. It's a very stim on fantasy, right. Yes, yes, but that's that's project, saying not only am I doing it, death himself is like. He's not formed that way. He is taken all these parts from these traditions and constructed himself to look like the skeleton, although I think there's some stuff in some of the later books that that's the way he looked, because that's the way people believe him to look. If anyway, the modern image of the grim reaper as we know in today is also heavily influenced by by films, particularly Swedish director in my Bergman's one thousand nine hundred and fifty seven film the seventh seal, where death is challenged to a game of chess by a night in order to buy time for himself and his friends, though death eventually claims them all. To be seen this one or no of it? It's yeah, the idea of death playing chess dates back before this,...

...but this is there the film that sort of popularized as it. I watched it. I would not recommend it. It's, I think, pretty dated and boring. The idea that this is one of the greatest films ever made, I think, is a pretty bold play. That's hilarious. Okay, but it is like it's one of the ones that comes up in all those things that it's a classic for whatever reason. But okay. But this is again particularly significant to Protchett, who claims he the first time he saw death personified was catching a glimpse of the seventh seal at his grandmother's as a young boy, after which the image remained with him ever since. And again we have in more challenges, death to a George protect himself and his party as well. So pratchett's yet sort of parodying this. The film was based on Bergman's play would painting and takes its name from the seventh seal, which is the final seal that ushers in the apocalypse in Christian revelation. That's when the angels blow their trumpets, although in fact death is released by the fourth seal, if we go back to that verse that we quoted earlier about the how it so, and so I think it should have been called the fourth seal because it's about death, not not be tell them you write that email gone. Now this depiction of death is parodied and one of my favorite films full time bill and Ted's Fergus journey from one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, which isn't just me throwing things in here, because we start off every episode of this saying I'm Josh and I'm Alice and together we are the unseen academicals, which as we mentioned in an earlier I think on the first episode. I think I'm just ripping off the wild stallions from the bill and Ted Movies there. I think that's what's influence that so has residence for this podcast, but also has a strange connection with Pratchett and more in particular. This is more relevant to reprimand. But in Repriman we have death disguising himself as in a farmers attire at while going work out farm, which is something that bill and Ted Dress up death as as a sort of pilgrim farmer to get into heaven. So that sort of reminded me of that. But interestingly, despite their being numerous video game, cartoon and TV series and tell a movie adaptations of Pratchett's work, there has been no major film adaptation of discworld or anything today, which seems pretty crazy, right, but apparently mort got pretty close. Fun Fiery Sword, I get it. Yeah, right, it's that tight plot. Right. So project apparently always said that the fourth discard novel, with it straightforward stand alone plot, would make the best movie of all of these books, and apparently there was a lot of discussion about it being adapted in the late s. But the project fell through. However, less than two years later, as borrows notes in he's biophy of Pratchett, for the grim reep, but featured prominently in the hit movie bill and Ted's Burgus Journey, leading to some withering comments from Pratchett at Hollywood's expense, which I can't find these comments. But yes, apparently Pruschett bigs bill a Ted ripped it off with the death character in Burgers journey. But yes, apparently projects. Most startling near Miss for a film adaptation came later in two thousand and ten, when Disney's wrong clements and John Muska, who were the directors of Classic Movies the Little Mermaid, Aladdin and Hercules, expressed interest in adapting more as the studios next animation project. He fucked up. You should have done that. That's just taken from borrow's biography. I didn't really go and verify this, but imagine that the follow up to Hercules being being more. That would be then. We don't be said here. Going more was really formative for our childhood and like a big away. Yeah, well, I'd have to do a podcast. Better be absessed. How Disney, you know, took all the meaning of more out of it and we'd have to do three episodes like that. We did do an episode on that, sure already? Okay, yeah, we really need to decide then, is if Kelly was a didzy princess, which she win a death battle Gods and I don't know. It's right because she's dead. She's alive. Why? I don't know. Yeah, not at the end of the book, I know. But in the book he can't answer the telephone nor defend herself. Jazzmine, whopper. I'm he has a tiger. She can win against anyone. That is true. Oh well, what's her name from? Brave as a ware bear. Anyway, it's awesome about brave ends with a where there fight again. It's so remember that about it. Remember the very interesting mother Daw the dynamic which all climaxed in a where bear fight. Right. So that's the sort of historical president for pratchet's death. That's for Pratchett's depiction of death himself. This is where it really gets formalized. rescore death is Pratchett's most iconic character. Appears in all of the discob books, I think, except for the amazing Maurice. But the death of rats appears in Matt so we have a reference least. And this is where he becomes a character at himself rather than sort of these cameras. Are you having? The first couple of books where he's chasing around rince Weeden and he appears on the boat in equal rights? I can't remember. Yeah, and when he's like fuck off. Yeah, so he has a bit of characterization there. But he's characterization in this book is quite different to his characterization in the first two. Discribdno, in the color of magic and the light fantastic death is this taunting, unfeeling presence that just sort of follows rincewind the round. Right, he's a death without compassion, whereas here he's definitive characteristic, especially it's a serious progressive is the whole point? Is He is a death with compassion, but he is depend...

...action. In the first two discord novels is based on the fable of the appointment in Samara. This is about a guy who cheats death and runs away. But the whole point is everywhere he looks death. It's following, which project project recommends as being worth a google. And one of his Alzheimer's Estays, so something he was a rare aware of. But yes, also in the color of magic, death reveals that his name is actually more. It's just the Latin word for days. Right, that's the joke. But then Prutchett is reusing that here without acknowledging it in earlier which sort of lends creeds to this idea of the alternate universes and early Discud novels. Right, this is this death is so different to the death and the color of magic, perhaps because it is an actual different death? Maybe? Maybe. Yes, in comparison to those early depictions in the death sequence, as moody notes, history is depicted as fixed and immutable and attempts to meddle with it can lead only to disaster. And this is a calvinistic, predestined world, but one which values the individual's role in history and say, yeah, we we have this recurring motif throughout model. There's no justice, there's just me right, everything is predetermined and there's only faith. And this is where I have my note. Elise frets about calvinism. So you take it away right. So, cautholicism, we have to start with Catholicism. So in a Catholic worldview, okay, you get into heaven by doing good works and and these have to be faithful good work. So it's not just that you help a lady cross the street because, like you want to get in heaven. You help a lady cross the street because that's charitable, the right thing to do, and it also will get you into heaven. And at any point if you do something wrong, you can go to a priest and say I did something wrong, and they say say you're hail Mary's. There's a whole like sacrament of confession and Penance or whatever, and you kind of make good and then your slate is kind of wiped clean and you can still get into heaven, and you can do that right up at the moment of death. And for that reason anybody can do a baptism or a confession right. So if you're on your deathbed, you, if I'm on my deathbed, you could be like Hey, alice, what do you want to confess? And I work well, and you're like cool, you're clean. Kind of thing. Off To heaven you go, and then God will kind of like judge me accordingly and all things will be good. This is Pascal's wage. I'm right. I don't know. That's the idea that. Yeah, you're a pent on your death Bairn. Okay, yeah, well, I'm saying all the religions right, you can live a life of atheism, Moody, and you convert to, yeah, classism, yeah, yes, yes, protestantism is a new fangled thing that messes everything up for all eternity. The other thing is that it's a very intellectual religion. It's one that was often, you know, it's the religion of the book. It was a learned thing. So you would often be brought up Catholic or with like Catholic substitions or traditions, even though they weren't, you know, over it, and then in your adolescence you would kind of adopt Protestant ideas. So I just thought that was interesting, given the coming of age element. I was like, Huh, there's a connection. I don't know where the Pratchett put it there, but that's something. So in Protestantism, the the Metaphor Peter always uses, which I think is helpful, is there's just a bank manager who wipes your debts clear for notice onable reason. Right. So let's say I have a mortgage and you have a mortgage. The bank manager just doing now's a wipe clean yours. Why? I've cleaned Alice's, isn't? That's it. So you all the elect and I'm not. We don't know throughout our whole life whether we're elect. We might feel grace working within us, but we don't know whether it's just like our thought or actual grace. So you just have to kind of go through life trying to make peace with God. Personally, there's whole system, the social system of Catholicism is obviously lost, and Calvinism is this idea that your fate is already set for you there's nothing you can do about it. If you are filled with grace, you are not, you will naturally do good works. So you might be going about your life helping all ladies across the road and you'll be like, I'm doing good works, right, so I must be filled with grace, so I must like this, I'm going into heaven, right, right, but you don't actually know, and there's a very good argument that this kind of like very individualist relationship with God is what leads to capitalism as we know it today. And if you would like to read more about that, read religion and the right of capitalism, which is an excellent, a very scary book. So that's it in a nutshell, and that's the difference between the two. Yeah, all right, this is that there's no justice, there's just me. It's like you can do things, but they're not worth anything, which, yeah, they need you sort of go down there the as essentialism rabbit hole off. You know, what's the point? What's the point, which I guess is what more is dealing with? Right, like why? Why Safe Kelly? If everyone dies? Why let her die, because then everyone dies. Yet he can't handle the idea that he has no control over the university, tries to take control. Shit gets worse and he's explicitly given control over the universe. Right, long he's not struggling in I'm going working a Burg Ab. Yeah, so this leads moody to claim that only the deathmont novels among the discworld series refrain from the subversion of their fairytale origins. Right. So, rather than yeah, I'm doing all these fairy tale stereotypes here, is what Protchett suing here, reinforcing the narrative causality that he rallied against so much in the witches series. Right, like there's no point fighting against the fairytale tropes in which is abroad, because you're always going to save the princess or whatever. It's a bit of a tension there between the two series that, you know, maybe gratty, whether wax. I mean I was about to say...

...she has no power, but she's the one character and the death novels the biggest pout. Yeah, yes, she has defeated death are multiple occasions. So she's a bad example. But he's a tough and so the idea of free will is only true if you are the greatest witch who has ever let. Otherwise, there's not much you can do. Right you, you are the water rolling down the hill and there's nothing you can do about it. The answer to that ory this is free will versus causality. But it's interesting that, yeah, we spend so much time looking than which is which is series about him. Yeah, trying to resist this idea of narrative causality, and here we have at the outside of the series, just death saying no, you're right, party of causality wins. So, yeah, I think. I think Protchett might have the most famous the picture of death. Yeah, I mean apart from you know, actual Christian in deaths boy, he's he's projects icon, right, he's mask. MMM that the next Gamon's death would be the other one. But yeah, I like they both had a shot like well, again, going back to game and has just does everything Pratchett does five years later, but not quite as well. But death, death, in the same man. You only know his death if you've read the same out and you know who death is and you are that lays death where when you see practice death like death. So but yeah, there are earlier literary personifications of death. Some notable examples that I just wanted to list off is the late fifteen century morality play every man, which I did mean to read and then didn't. Building's paradise lost, at which we mentioned Edgar. I impose the masque of the red death, which preferable project reference is frequently right. We already discussed this in both, which is abroad, and masquerade. That might be the most influential literary depiction of death, perhaps. And we have Marcus Shujaq's two thousand and five novel. The book thief is narrated by by death. You and I both taught that at a high school level. I don't know. Yeah, just gonna say that was also really influential book for me. Is A kid, right, I do. I reckon. I've read that like ten times. I'm not sure. I know I made into a movie. I don't know if, like wasn't in the movie. I didn't see it, but like, if the book thief was as big overseas as it sort of was in Australia, was pretty ubiquitous for a while and it is now being taught in high school courses. Yeah, and other examples. These are all pulled from books compared to picture, from articles comparing literary depictions of death to projects. Apparently there is a two thousand and six novel called a dirty job by Christopher Moore, where a guy is becomes a death merchant. Right. So this is sort of rehashing the plot of what if you were a training death? I did not read this because, coincidently, as part of my vampire kick I had, when I found out about this book, I had just read Christopher Moore's book bloodsucking fiends, which is one of the worst books I have ever read. Think Chrisphomore is very overrated. Yeah, Oh, you you know Christopher. I'd never heard anything. I've read the Air Fair. I don't know what that is, but I started. This is like his vampire one and it's like a romantic vampire think, but it's early s but it's like it's trying to do the funny thing, which I guess Pratchett does a bit, but also sort of that you know, Douglas Adams, you know, nihilistic parody thing, except it's just horribly sexist and misogynist and none of the jokes are funny and it's awful. So I will not be reading a dirty job. One I do want to read is George pendell's morbid fictional memoir death a life from two thousand and eight, which Emma Nelson describes in a two thousand and seventeen honors thesis, bringing death to life on the personifications of death. In the book thief, Dirty Job and prendles death, she says death of life is in some ways a continuation of Milton's paradise lost. Mean, I'm clearly upset. I'm Mary, I'm said, I'm incredibly upset. That's so upsetting. Go on, I thought this might interest to you, but you you're already here. Reaction. I'm sorry, it was it's calvinism. You always going to be upset and no matter what. How this like doing right people. She says, let's to pick death as the son of send and Satan and question God is pure goodness, which I mean the Golden Compass. Does this right thought, whatever it's called? In prettles novel, she says Satan wants to instigate and Angelic Workers Republic led by a central Seraphic Council. And Death is, as mentioned, someone who admires life rather than hates it. IMPOWERED US lost. However, he is described as Grimm, transmitting a frightening image of death, whereas prindle's death is described as a trustworthy constant. But life can always rely on and therefore loves. So I have not read this book, but I am intrigued. By that description because it sounds like it's doing the Pratchett thing, but rather than the grim repart version of death, is a specifically addressing the miltonic version of death, which is only like two lines of the poll. I'm not jazz, but sure I have another one. Samyache, you called Samuel Taylor Coleridge, is ryme of the ancient mariner from severeen eighty nine, published with lyrical ballads, has a representation of death. Are Those who ribs through which the sun did Pierce, who are great? And is that woman, all her crew? Is that a death? And are there two? Is Death that woman's mate? Her Lips were red, her looks for free, her locks for yellow as the gold, her skin was white as leprosy. The nightmare life and death was she who thick men's blood with cold. So I've got like the looking through the skellous and the scoletal ribs. Yep, also death as a woman, but like this ghost you figure, spooky figure, and then life and death. And then they played dice...

...with the dudes life on the ship, which I just thought like. It's one of those ones that is incredibly influential but nobody knows it. Like it's always in the background, ryme of the ancient mariner, because it influenced so many other writers, but the people who read those writers don't know that that's where it came from. Kind of think. I think rather of the ancient marinery is pretty well known. I was the depiction of death. I thought that was who as you said. I was like, Oh, yeah, I think literary people know it and like people know the aim, but it's one of those poems. So it's like, Oh, I'm I read it in your right. I haven't done it since. I don't know the intricacies of it, but Oh, I do know heaps of Gothic and it's everywhere in the Gothic. But it's kind of indirect that makes it. Yeah, people know the saying in our wha truss around your neck. They are right, but I got a lot of people don't know where it's for anyway. Yeah, well, yeah, something you brought up there is that is a depiction of death is as feminist female which rite. One of the differences between Pratchett gamings is we have a female and a male death and, as project acknowledges, in the folklore of discworld on earth there are some countries in whose language is death is a feminine work. Right, whinning about you got Lamore Morton. More talk in the European Romance Languages and this seems irrelevant, but it has actually there is a bunch of scholarship. There's a lot of scholarship on project. That's about translation, which I don't bother with because it's literally about the mechanics of translation. It's not about the content but the idea that it is a problem for characterizing the character of death when you are described character, but he is a thing that has to be described a feminine whether. There is actual scholarship about that. So the gendering of death is significant. That is interesting. We also have a female version of death depicted in Neil gay men's graveyard books from two thousand and eight which gets compared to more a lot, as we will discuss, and I got excited because I actually accidentally bought or got a copy of the graveyard book that was was wasn't the gray guard book. It was a part one comic adaptation. I have a signed copy here of just the gray guard book or the comic version. There's the grave yard book. Yeah, but like signed your game and books are are completely like you're more it's more ready to get an unsigned the affected, not a minor sign. I have an unsigned copy of the actual graveyard book now. But now I got excited because I've been hanging on to this comic version. I almost send it to the opshop the other day and then I didn't. I thought I had and then I saw it was still on my shelf. So I grabbed a because I thought, in this version, is the depiction of lady death going to be the Sandman death? And it's not. Yeah, and their death is depicted as a sort of whispy blond, fair haired made the blood dances with. But yeah, so that's that's a lot of stuff to say. I thought there was going to be a connection, but there's not. Yeah, a lot of the scholarship are more or more recent scholarship, often undergraduate or postgraduate scholarships, are not fully published. Articles and things are comparisons of the depictions of Pratchett's death and usually not in more often relevant to reaperman. So we might talk about these more and later episodes. But yes, comparisons of Pratchett's death with not the SAM and death but the graveyard book in that both less of are well, then are they're not very similar. Okay, but the the sort of messaging of both is the idea of softening the concept of death. Right, okay, because you don't. Death throws up as a character in the graveyard book but isn't one of the main characters. But it's the De mystifying of goals and things, right. This is the Adams family, the dark shadows thing, and then the vampire lineage, the the characterization of these previously threatening monstrous figures. So there's there's a lot of work on that. I did read it all and or a bunch of it, and most of it does do the could whether conclusion is both Pratchett's reprimand and the graveyard book present a version of death what is nice instead of scary and like, Uh Huh. Yeah, so none of them really went anywhere that. There's a bunch of stuff written about that, but it's curty. Thomas's two thousand and nineteen article, Macavau bringings are look into identity and more in the gray book they observed that Moret and bond. The main character of the grave yard book a two souls who have thus far done only what they needed to and I'm not really taken the time to develop a personality. Because there's little boy. What do you want me to like? Right, there's there's that in that these are children's or in because of more children, adjacent literature, and that these are builduns from men, right, novels of development and education. But I think there's something here, especially in the case right, so, more is more the name for death, and bod is short for nobody. Right, he was a child that had no family, had no currencies, nobody. The stories of these books isn't just their personal development, it is the defying of this set destiny. Right, more doesn't have to be deaf and bod doesn't have to be nobody. So they're not quite defying the universal calvinistic order, but they're defying on, I think, is autonomy or meat an him. The idea that your professions or your characteristics are described by your name so grave and we don't have names that work well in this but if you were like Alice Fletcher, you would have to grow up and be a fletcher. I don't even know what a feacher is. Or we make arrows. Yeah, that's right, and this doesn't really have any application in the real world. But you see this a lot in books, right, where the characters in name and their names have...

...hints, which, more, is sort of parody. Right. Yes, there's a lot of scholarship that. I think that is an original thought. That's a lot of the scholarship. Is just the idea that they are these books are humanizing the concept of death and graby out things which project addresses directly himself, after being diagnosed in December two thousand and seven with Alzheimer's, which, would you know, eventually proved to be fatal. But he talks about this a lot in the the entire last section of his nonfiction collection, the slip of the keyboard, is just different collections of yeah, his speeches and essays about Alzheimer stuff and more is brought up in almost all of them. And protect says, although death has commonly featured as a character throughout literature, the death of the discworld is a little more unusual. He became popular and he points out that the discord death doesn't kill. Right. He's simply turns up afterward to reassure the puzzled new arrivals as they begin their journey into the afterlife. He's kind, Crutchett says. After all, he is an angel to which is a bit facetious, given that he's appealing to these mil tonic and Biblical winking intensifies. Yeah, depictions of Anil. He also tells of a former nurse describing how she euthanized a cancer patient with a pillow. And how did they ask? I think, sir, all right, since death was going to be a friend and it was actually life itself that was killing him. He also tells of receiving letters from relatives of term my ill people thinking Pratchett for the death books and sometimes asking to quote them at memorial services. So there seems to be some record of real world in Pat of these books softening the idea of death. But I thought, I'm concerned about this a little bit because I'm terrified of death. House II. Yeah, I really do not want to die. That's nothing on the other side. Br Yeah, that's right. That's why it's fucking scary. You are know, it's like having an APP I'm not. I'm not scared of like being dead, I'm not, but I will no longer exist anymore. Yeah, it'd be less fun. That's fun. Yeah, this is an existential dread, not a afterlife tread. But I got back and forth like some days I'm terrified, another days I'm like, Oh, mine called those the bad days, the days whereas I'm driving to work, I'm like if my car crashed into a tree and I didn't have to close bar, it wouldn't be a bad thing. It's because that's just seventh week of essay market. But I mean the apprentice point. He is making pro youth agr arguments here, saying he has contributed that by de mrfying terrifying death. But there is something to me here that buts up against the like maybe we should be scared of death, but there's something here where like this is retrospectively applied when you're trying to compels her started. Bill teds Burger's journey alongside maryaves. was asked once like what he thought of death or what he thought the worst thing about death would be, and he was like it's the people who get left behind, like I'm dead, I'm fine. It's the people who lose me who suffer. And I think that's mostly my fear, other people dying and me losing them, or me dying and other people losing me. I'm scared that I won't get to read all the books and that I we would die. You're not fishing this series. Are Alert Idy to live for at least six more years, so we can do make to raising steam or whatever it's at the end now. I think that's a any aching books we got to do last so so yeah, it's nice, but it's sort of founded in nothing right. This is something you tell yourself to comfort something. PURCHET's whole depiction of death is like well, on the other side it's we get this developed later on in the death series, in the other disc web books, that the idea is that you know there's the the empty desert when you walk or there's some implication that what you believe I'm decide informs what you believe on the other side. That's all great for the discworld, where fantasies are real and shit, but I'm just going to die and not exist and there's going to be bookshelves like that does. I can't really take comfort in that when I'm like yes, but I don't live in a magical fantasy world where there is a desert and maybe if I believe hard enough, everything will be okay, they says. Just chill out, bright. Are you sure you can get Dante and counter race quotes mixed up? N troll thing is like come on in, we care, let's let's figure out which circle of how you belong in. Everyone's always quote in paradise and infair are but it's a little off. Quote in purgatory, where don't I very once said, well, except I'm probably translated from the from the Italian, like yeah, we go. So yeah, that that is a bit on the general depiction of death which will carry through and will hopefully inform our engagement with the wrist of the series. In terms of looking at more itself, the scholarship for this year, there's not a lot of it and it's sort of there's a big one, which is the Andrew but article Terry Pratchett. The comedy buildogs are remain but that's sort of like a one and done deal where he writes that it creates project scholarship and then no one really takes these ideas further and any further investigation of more is just further analysis of this idea of the buildungswoman and how that relates to other fantasy and instead of doing anything original. We're just going to rehash that as well. That's that's that's a all there really is for for more.

But yeah, this is this is informs and creates project scholarship. So I thought it was worth going through. And then the concept of the build unsweromn itself, which will come up later. So yeah, and RM Butler's article Terry Pratchett and the Comedy Bill Duns Room was published in foundation of summer in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six. And building swoman, as we have mentioned previously, is a novel of Education. Now I say buildings around. Ali says that in Jrman. I've found records of people pronouncing at both ways and telling you that they're correct. I don't know. And yes, the term was coined in one thousand eight hundred and nineteen by Carl Morgan Stern and popularized to the early nine hundreds by the German. His historicist will have deathly now, as well as being foundational to modern criticism, project criticism, but brought a literary criticism and the understanding of the novel itself. It is also foundational, as I think I've mentioned on a previous episode, to my academic understanding of things, because this is the first thing I learned as part of my tertiary literature course. And the first book we did was port of the artist as a young man, the James Joyce book, and the discussion was this is a bill dungs reremant. You guys know what a Bill Don's room in is? It's the novel of Education. That's hilarious. We couldn't get first years to read that. Now it's got more than five pages. That's one of those short but deceptively a slog books. Yeah, we did port of the ARC the young man, but the novel of Education. Right, we're sort of skirting around this, but the name is the thing, right. This is a book about someone's upbringing. There they're becoming a usually into adulthood, coming of age. Yeah, come of coming of age novels going to hear and know this was revolutionary, as will discuss, in the development of the novel, sort of when the novel itself was being developed. Yeah, but it's pretty commonplace now, especially, as you would think, of coming of Nay age novel amongst our young adult fantasy. But obvious examples are the Harry Potter books, and all the things that's ripping off right at seeing the Diana went Jones books where literally they are about schools. Sorry, yeah, sort of the dominant form of young adult literature. And if young adult literature is the dominant form of literature at the vironment, right we can sort of say that is true. So yeah, and as bother observes, many of practice discord novels feature a young protagonist, often a foolish one, who comes to maturity and wisdom during the course of the novel. And it's true this model dominates the early discord novels, at least right sore. Not Color of magic or the light fantastic or the first two. These are travel narratives, as we'll get to, but from they have equal rights as about s education, the more sorcery, weird sisters and all the witch's books, if you think about it as the education of a grant, which we sort of decided it was. Pyramids is about the education of an assassin. God's guards is about or and the watch series, or at least the early watch books, are all about these new characters that come into the watch and they learn about life through their experiences in the watch and small gods, which is the religious education of the main character. So yeah, at least for the first like ten, fifteen disco books is a this is the dominant form that Pratchett's books are taking, which again brings us back to the idea of these these parallel worlds or something, because John Clue, he's one of the people are kind of wrote something before. But like he wrote a short run up about Pratchett in the intersoon magazine in one thousand nine hundred and ninety, wherein he suggested that Pratchetts protagonists were all in fact the same child returned to reenact the same story. I think he's been metaphorical here, but there is something to that, where they are traveling the same steps, right, and this is a claim he reasserts in his coming of age chapter, which opens the guilty of literature collector collection, wherein he elaborates that each one of these characters were's a garb of Cinderella or is a garb of Cinderella or at the ball which tizing with our fairytale stuff. And in the next book it is the same child who returns, intact and innocent, to reenact the comedy. So we got we got gesturing towards some of these carnivalesque things that we discussed in relation to with with sisters, which is abroad, which I just want to leave that hanging there because we'll come back to some of those ideas later. But as sort of silly as this stuff sounds like, this is the sort of thing literary theorists like to say. A right characters are reincarnated, Cinderella's guards and they're like, well, what does that mean? But when a fan wrote to pratchet to ask if the protagonist of moving pictures, Victor Tubal band, was going to return in another novel project, replied saying that he reviewed all his characters as movie stars, reappearing in several books but playing different roles, and that to him victor impyramids topic and the eponymous hero of Mort and perhaps even initially carrot and guards guards were all roles being played by the same actor. And Yeah, but that's also just a nice thing you say to a kid fan that writes in. You know, like yeah, he'll be back, he's always the Swi your spirit. Harry. Moving pictures is about Hollywood, so maybe there's some tie in there that he's playing on this kid's going, I really like this book about acting, and he's playing into that. But he's giving specific examples. They're saying more than carrot. We're all played by the same actor. So I mean again, this is pratchet using metaphors and saying that, hey, these are literary types. Yeah, the something to that. This could be a Maria brothers three conspiracy theory, or...

...not even conspiracy theory. It's explicit in the way it's Presetta, where it's all a play. Okay, that's the correct response. Look, sometimes literary theory is stupid. I wouldn't. I would sit here and say that's a stupid theory, except for the part where Pratchett wrote, yeah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm like, that's done, though, Pat Pracheck Rethink, rethinking. In the two thousand and eleven chapter on Magic, adolescence and education in the discworld, Gideon harbercorn and Erna Reinhardt go even further, breaking Pratchett's modes of education down into five subcategories. Right, there's the apprenticeship of a single craft, on which they point to more I would also point to equal rights, like this is the idea forever, was before that said, there's not that much. Scholarship are more. It's all about equal rights, like, for some reason, even though equal rights came first and, I would say does more. The example of this type is always more and were. This is true of Butler's article itself. Right. He says, yeah, Pratchett is writing these comedic building swermons and I'm going to talk about that as a motive of story structure and the novel I'm going to use to do this is more, but he never gives a justification for why more, which I justification would be, you know, it was the one where he became the author and became a fulltime writer. It's his master piece or whatever. He doesn't say any of that. And the idea that like, oh, it's just the earliest one. It's like, well, equal rights was there before, so why have you picked more? I don't know. But yeah, so we have like the apprenticeship to a craftsman being more an equal rights. There are guild education, so things like the assassin's guilty of pyramids, and I think you could add the watching there as well, if they're sort of considered like a guild. There's religious education, which is small gods and also the history monks in thief of time, school education, which will get to when we get to soul music and the Hog father with the quotem college for the young ladies where Mort's daughter, Susan so St Hell it attends, and magical education, as shown in the tiffany aching series. Again, equal rights is getting overlooked, and also just the entire which is series, and and I would say sorcery as well, right, which is the novel that comes after this, and unseen academicals. Right, is sort of a it's not a magical education, but that is a build note. Thugs were mun about not and about trevor taking place sort of around the university, but they are street smart rather than formally educated. There was, Maxie stribeer points out in their two thousand and eighteen chapter on non formal education in discworld. Although this topology affords a good overview of the degree to which project deals with the topic of education, is not a precise categorization of individual forms, pointing out overlaps between magic and apprenticeships, right, equal rights with sisters, the tiffty a can novels and formal school education and magical education. Obviously the unseen university is a magical school. So we start blending things together there. It's not a particularly rigorous analysis, but rather than breaking things up and going these are what these are, it's just I thought it gave a good overview of even though they are doing these different things. Were talking about religion, we're talking about magic, we're talking about school. They are all these educational coming of age not but it's interesting that Butler's article comes out in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six, because by that point Pratchett has sort of dropped this builduns from n thing that dominates the early books. Yeah, the last few discord books aren't really buildings, are men. So in nine hundred and ninety six the most recent books were hog father, feed of Clay and interesting times, none of which are builduns from m. You can make an argument about feed of clay in the Golms, but I don't really it's bit of a stretch. Earlier example is also eric the ninth disco a book, but that's probably the exception among the first ten or so books. But also masquerade was about to come out as well, and would we describe that as a buildogs froment? Like it's sort of the education of Agnes, but not really. Yeah, nor it doesn't really fit that the formal model, even if that theme of realizing who you are is there. So, and this is how for academia and the publishing system works. But by the time Butler gets around the actually writing something about this project has moved on. It seeks yeah, but yes, butless. Article is foundational to Pratchett scholarship and it's the the big thing about. More so I think it is worth discussing both his article and the concept of the builduns Rember, given how dominant is I'm on Pratchett's early works in detail. All right. So, yes, this brings us back to buck teen, of course, who we cannot escape the patron state of unseen academicals and Pratchetts Scholarship. So in his article, Butler I guess that Pratchett's popularity makes him the nearest author we have to bucked in's written folk humor. He's it's a weird that so well, it's not. It's a weird quote. He's saying the nearest example we have of the folk humor that bucked in analyzed. The the person Pratchett is actually like his ravelist who didn't analyze. But yes, it's a weird quote there. And he analyzes more in these article to prove his point. Now, I think I allude to this before. He does not give an explanation of why mort so have been easier. Yeah, but he he doesn't say that. So I don't know. Because, yeah, equal rights is an earlier builduns remend but for whatever reason. But I analyzes more in terms of Buckden study of the builduncer man and it's significance in the history of realism, of the realist novel, which is an incomplete essay. It's fairly complete but allegedly there was more pages that he had written but he used them to roll his cigarettes while serving in world water. That's a all right hemingway. Okay, I didn't. I looked at that briefly. I can finding and that's something Butler says is an article.

I don't know if you do read the buildogswoman article, it does sort of make sense and come to a point, although it does he does an analysis and just sorts of cutoff. So maybe there was a comeback conclusion part, but it is sort of contained the Buildung sweroman and the development of the novel is complete at least. So yes, this is Buckton describes his essay as an attempted historical classification of subcategories according to how the image of the main hero of a novel is constructed. And he describes four different novel categories, which are the travel novel, the novel of Ordeal, the biographical and autobiographical novel and then finally the build unswerman or the novel of Education Rant. And as he points out that no specific historical subcategory upholds any given principle in pure form. But he's argument and his intervention that he's trying to make in that it it's essays of rather than being these generic boundaries that we would categorize books by today. What these books are categorized our is the prevalence of one or another principle for formulating the figure of the hero. It's not what story has been told, it is how the hero operates and Patry. Now, how much I agree with him about this, I'm not sure, but that that is the argument he is making. Now, of course we want to analyze more in terms of the build uns, remember, but I do want to go through these other categories briefly. A because part of this podcast is just to explain these academic theories, but also, I think we're going to take some of these academic theories and apply them to to more and the other disc what novels as well. So the first type of novel he analyzes is the travel novel, which he says is typical of classic naturalism, the European pictures novel, and appears in an even more complex form in the adventure pictures novels of Tobias Smile and Daniel Defer, novels such as Mal Flanders, which this is the one. Patrick's always gone about this like this smuddy biography. Right, I have not read it, about to read it, or you can come back and report on it and know what you've been reading episode. But yeah, for now I know is it's sort of biography of this lady's night life and it don't go well. That's what I know. Think there is some incest involved, which I bring up because this seems like it's a biographical novel and maybe a buildogs woman, but we'll get to that later. But it seems weird that he points to this as the exact core example of the travel novel to which we could also add the first to discworld novels the color of magic and the light fantastic, more so the color of magic. So yes, we will come back to this idea of the travel novel and more detail when we get to those. But backton defines the hero of the travel novel as a point in moving space. He and bactor news as male pronounce for the hero. So I'm just going with that rather than edit them all out. But back then says the hero has no essential distinguishing characteristics and he himself is not at the center of the novelists artistic attention, but rather he enables the author to develop and demonstrate the spatial and static social diversity of the world, perceiving alien social groups, nations, countries, ways of life and so forth as exotic in their bare distinctions, contrast and strangeness. So yes, so he's racist. They out backed in all the hero a. The here are, the here are, there are. Yeah, like, Oh, that's very exhaustic. Yes, yes, it's that, that idea of exoticism. But the point backton's trying to make here is the story is not about the guy. It's showing us the places right, which we will see in the color of magic and Eric. And he also says that despital of this time in and of itself and travel narratives lacks any significance or historical coloring, with even the heroes biological time noted only as a matter of form. Okay, says the only time developed in this type of novel is adventure time, come on and grab your friends, which consists of the most immediate units, moments, hours and day, snatched at random from the temporal process. So we don't get to see the hero develop in any sort of continual way. It's just like little snapshots of his life in the places where we're going. So this is why buck then says the trouble novel does not recognize Human Emergence and development. And even if the heroes status changes sharply, for example going from a beggar to a rich man or from a homeless wonder to a nobleman, the character himself remains unchanged, which I think is true of Prachetts to flour in the color of magic. So yes, we'll come back to that in more detail when we get to that no but this is the started point. This is his earliest sort of form of the novel is it's about the places you'll go rather than characters themselves. What I want to look at it a little bit more detail is the novel of ordeal, which Buckton says is constructed as a series of tests of the main hero, which Buckton says is the most widespread subcategory of the novel in European Literature, incompassing a considerable majority of all the novels produced. He divides this into two main subcategories. The Greek Romance, which is constructed as a test of fidelity in love and purity of an ideal hero or heroin, and the other main subcategory is early Christian biographies of Martyrs and other Saints, which is based on the idea of testing holy men through suffering and temptations. This is like the story of Jesus refusing Satan in the desert, and all of that right there. The tests of other subcategories he gives include their medieval chivalrock novel and the Baroque novel,...

...by major examples by Stendel and BALLZAC and dust Yfski, which he calls these Baroque novels the most significant and historically influential and alloyed subcategory of the novel of or deal. I don't know about that. I would think these sad those. Nobody's read those and I brought a few ballsox and I've had a Dustcofsky sitting on my shelf for years. But yeah, they don't really have popular influence, although I think back in writing this during world water, right, a bullock is perhaps more yeah, okay, yeah, and he's one for you. But he says that the modern novel of or deal drives from two main branches of development, one being the Gothic adventure novels of Matthew Lewis and Redcliffe, Horace Walpole and others, the you guys and my boys. I would say then, that, and I've had to shut my mouth, that they are direct descendants from things like paradise lost and obviously inferno. Like inferno is travel novel, novel of ordeal as a poem. I get it. I get which brings us back to genesis. It's UNIS. That's interesting because, yeah, it those novels are so heavily influenced by Montain, HMM, and Shakespeare. Yeah, and then the other main branch of development of the novel idea are our pathos filled, psychological sentimental novels such as those by Samuel Richardson and John Jacques Rousseau. So, yeah, this is the Gothic tradition right, where we're getting the or the romantic tradition, where we're getting the combination of these these Gothic texts and the sentimental text into sort of that what we recognize as modern novels. At the start up there the nineteen centry. But buckton says, the features of the novel of all deal change significantly in the subcategories, creating a unique heroization of the week, a herorization of the little man, which I think is interesting. Right, this is rather than Hercules going off to do the trials, when now having ordinary people are overcoming the these things which we get in project right, as much as they are fantasy novels. Right, he come on, the barbarians off in the sidelines and we are seeing rincewind and two flower at Esk and mort right. More is your quintessential little man. He's this kid who's got no skills and he is tasked with the power of life and death. So we definitely see that continuing in Pratchett. The novel of Odeal, Buckton says, as distinct from the trouble novel, also concentrates on the hero, but in the majority of cases the surrounding world and the secondary characters are transformed into mere background. So yes, we're rather than the trouble novels, is about the places you go. The novel of a deal is about the hero, about the main character. But still the hero is always presented as complete and unchanging. They are only ever tested and verified. And we will talk more about the hero is duties later, but this is saying that, yeah, Hercules or whoever doesn't go through this big personal change throughout the story. He is always the big strong man at the start and and he must use his strength. That he has always had to overcome these tasks. But he had the power to overcome the task within him. All A lot grouping. It's unless it's the Disney version, in which case he it's also it's interesting post on Disney is a Hercules bill duncer men. Yeah, how about that? So yes, Buckton says, the plot of a novel of ideal still also lacks any real biographical duration. It begins where a derivation from the normal social and by of biological course of life begins and ends, where life review resumes its normal course. So this is adventure time plus fairy tale time. If we think about when we did Midsummer Night Street and this is the characters going to the forest. They're taken away into the the fairytale end and then they come back and it says if no time has passed, so you can't have any development because all of this happened off to the side, somewhere outside of actual time. But we do see this in Moret because a big thing about more is more exists outside of time. Anything to say about more existing outside of time? Not a great deal of very soon right because but I think that is a big plot point in more is how he is active on the real world is when he is removed from and involved in in time itself. And I think here we have an interesting contrast between equal rights and more, which are both these apprenticeship novels. But with more we are having this novel of ordeal, Fairytale Time removed, when not a more is literally taken out of the real world or the discworld and pulled into this metaphysical realm and is able to interject esque never leaves the real world. So again in why are we analyzing more rather than equal rights? As a Bill Duncroman, this says to me that more is more. Removed from the tradition, perhaps has more in common with the traditional novel of Ordeal, as we will get too later. But yes, Buckton concludes that, therefore, the events of a novel of ordeal do not create a new type of life. The world is not capable of changing the hero, it only tests him, and the hero does not affect the world, leaving everything in the world in its place, which again we will discuss in relation to more later on. But have a think about that one.

Maybe you're going to mail them parts. That felt yes, and then the the other build uncomo and precursor he analyzes is the biographical novel, which he says is a tradition that begins with the classical biographies, autobiographies and confessions of the early Christian period, but has never actually existed in pure form. He says the essential feature of biographical novel is the appearance of biographical time which, distinct from adventure and fairytale time, is quite realistic and includes all of life's moments in total pro us right. This is where we are getting the the entire duration of the heroes life and their day to day things that they do. This is Moll Flanders, though, right. This is why I don't know why he was saying, well, Flanders is a travel novel and I think what we're realizing here is there might be some overlapt Buckton. Well, he does say that at the start, that all of these exist in there, all combinations. I just don't know why he picked Moll Flanders, which is so clearly an example of a biographical builtime, scerb and novel as these. He goes through a lot and that's what the ordeal is. That's it's like, oh, what she goes through over is like more significant than just her being. I don't know, it's a side argument. Just really struck me as odd that this is his key example, that neither of us have actually read it. You'll come back to me as like now it's all travel and dude. So anyway, back to Buckton, who says in autobiographical novels or biographical novels the world also assumes a special character. It is no longer the background for the hero, secondary characters, country, cities, things and so on enter into the biographical novel in it significant way and acquire a significant relationship to the whole life of the main hero. This is manifested especially clearly in the family biographical novel of the type of fielding's Tom Jones, something else I haven't read. That seven hundred pages is sitting on my bookshelf to so yeah, what he's saying here is it's no longer our focus is knowing the places. It's no longer the heroes, how the world and the hero interact and how the outside world affects the hero rather than just testing him and him remaining resolute against it. However, while the heroes life and fate change, the hero himself remains essentially unchanged. Unlike in their novel of ordeal, the hero is characterized by both positive and negative features, but these features are fixed and ready made. They are given from the very beginning and throughout the entire course of the novel. Man remains himself unchanged. The event shape not the man but his destiny. And I think, yeah, I think Buckton's drawings. I'm pretty like thin lines here. I'm not really sure. He's like, well, it's influence, but they don't shape him, they shape his destiny and it's like well, thank they interact, that they don't. I'm not really sure how hard a line is drunk here, but Buckton says there is one. But as well as we're starting to see all these categories played together, Buck and says all these principles, you know, in these precursor type of novels is there's all these principles for the formation of the hero. Paved the way for the development of the buildogs reman which appeared in Germany in the second half of the eighteenth century, and the development of later synthesized forms in the nineteen century, coming through fruition in the realistic novels of Stendale, bowls at flubber, Dickens and Thackeray. Yes, that's something else we have to keep in mind. Here we're trying to apply this to Pratchett, who is a personal fantasy although Buckton is specifically saying I'm talking about realist fiction. So even though we're dipping into these novels of or deal, when he comes to the buildumcrement, he's like, I'm not talking about fantasy narratives, which they weren't really fantasy novels. So much in the period he's talking about here, and even by the time he's writing this, say, you know, the early twenty century stuff, Lord of the rings hadn't really taken off yet. So something to keep in mind. But they're but like is taking this and applying it to project in a fancy setting. All right. That finally brings us to the buildungs R run itself, where we talked about this before. This is the novel of emergency, novel of Education adducted into defines it in the most general sense as the novel of Human Emergence. He says, unlike other novels which present a static hero, dugs are men, which is my plural for Duncer runs, present the image of man in the process of becoming in the novel, he says. Historical examples date back to xenophon's Separadia. Wolfram von Ershan backs possible in the Middle Ages. Those are just, he says, the earliest example. So this is another thing he's playing pretty loose with. The time periods is like it developed in Germany and then in the nineteen century, but also it dates back to Zeno former. Okay, yeah, there's some gaps and he gives a long list of examples, which includes revel as for Sir Geta Jean, Paul Dickens, tolstoy and Thomas Mann, among other things. They were just sort of the big mates I recognized. But yes, he says, what the billdougs room does is introduced time into man. It enters into his very image, changing in a fundamental way the significance of all aspects of his destiny and life. As opposed to a static unity, changes in the hero himself now acquire plot significance and thus the entire plot of the novel is reinterpreted and reconstruct get it, I follow. I'm just like, this is why people make fun of legature academics. It's just like wow, I'm having too much fun at the keyboard here. You know, it is translated from okay, French. So and the French French translations do tend to repeat. Yeah, but there's something going on here where I get it. But I don't really see such a clear delineation between this...

...and the other novels. I think about like faffing about a bit on that front. Yeah, yeah, and that point seems to be that none of these categories line up specifically. So if it all bleeds. How much can we say this is what defines a build uns from there? I don't know. So I think you're saying less about it's a category, as these are sort of the major interventions. These novels are then bringing these forms of bringing to the mix that then, when we get to the modern realist novel, this is where these ideas have sort of come from. But yeah, it's not really. It's an essay about categorical forms that keeps mixing and blurring. And speaking of categorical forms categories, Buckton says there are five major categories of buildogs. From there is the IDEALIC builduncwer room, which is tales of growing up and ideal childhood. These depict man's path from childhood through to old age, showing all those essential internal changes in a person's nature and views that take placing him as he grows older. Such a sequence of development and emergence of Man is cyclical in nature, repeating itself in each life, giving examples out of hippo and Seun Paul. So you're here like this is a biographical novel, right, and he says a biographical novel the hero doesn't change. He's always the same person all the way through. But then here says the difference is that biographical novels of linear and then Idyllic Build Unswerman are cyclical, repeating themselves in each life. And I'm like, I don't know if they are cyclical. He just throws that in there without really defining it. But that it seems to be the crux of his argument. Because yes, there's all about Crome, butucton's holting is time and chronotopes and he's defining this as the way heroes and time and the world interact. That he says a buildogs woman is cyclical, even though the hero still goes from birth to old age. I don't really understand. Okay, the second category of the buildogs man, he says, is a novel of Education and experience. So this is much the same as the idealic version, but rather than presenting an idyllic childhood, this presents an education and a transition from innocence to cynicism, giving examples of color and Gerta, and I guess we throw a William Blake if we're doing poetry as well, right, but this is the idea of it's like a you realize that the world is not as idealic as you perhaps want the whereas perhaps the ideal like Goldog Sir many's more nostalgic and idealistic. The third version is the biographical fieldogs are venner, which sounds like a biographical novel, further confuses things here by saying these buildogs runs are not cyclical, they are linear, saying that the emergence of Man's life destiny fuses with the emergence of Nan himself. So that's the distinction there is. Rather than its being about a person, this is now a biography, as I guess, a metaphor or an autonomy for the world itself. Right. I meant to read the hero's experiences as representative of a broader social movement, I guess, and he gives the examples here being fielding as Tom Jones, and Dickens as David Copperfield. He read David Copperfield. I think I had read a second year. The fact that I'm like, did I read it? Does that answer question? I attempted to for this because it's the one that keeps coming up and but dumb, my God, I could not do it. My stibulans, I find him incredibly boring and dry. Yes, I agree, but in some of these other stuff I'm like, oh, there's there's interesting stuff going on here, and then you get to David Cup fields, like it's just some dude talking about like legal documents. That's right, that story is is based on a real legal case that went on for like fifty years and by the time they say they did the case, all the money at stake in the case had been used to pay for the legal foods, like an inheritance case, which obviously were pretty common back then. So perhaps you know interesting at the time, but I think there is a reasonable that well, that the story is presented as a biography of up David Cup field's life. The fourth category, he says, is a didactic or pedagogical build doctor man, so this is education but based upon a specific pedagogical ideal. Giving the examples of Rousseau would ravelous. So yeah, this is one that you know when you see it. But there's a difference between a guy going through education in the story and then Roussou going no, we almost return to nature. And then we have finally, the fifth category of Builduncer Man, which is he doesn't have a fancy name for this. He just says this is the category. whearing individual emergence is inseparably linked to historical emergence and these types of novels. He says man's emergence is accomplished in real historical time, with all of its necessity, its fullness, its future and it's profoundly chronotopic nature, whatever that means. A load of whoe right. Well, I don't know. I agree, I know, I guess this is a bunch of a waffle. Or Yeah, it's very minute and if there are any differences they sort of inconsequential. MMM. But yes, Buckton says, whatever this fifth kind of build arm sermon is, it is the most significant category, and says that aspects of this historical emergence of man can be found in almost all important realistic novels and consequently they exist in all works that achieved a significant assimilation of real historical time, giving examples such as reliss as Gargantua and Pentagral Simplicius Simplicimus by Hans Jacob chrisofl von Grimmal showing, which I just put in there because I thought it would be funny for me to try and say it, and good...

...as William Myers as apprenticeship, which I haven't read, although I thought it was interesting. In Frankenstein, the creature reads good as sorrows of weather, and that sort of teaches him how to be in the world. Sort is also kind of a building Roman, kind of a travel narrative, to kind of a novel of ide ordeal. It's a fucking yeah, the creature's narrative is definitely a buildocs from it, and you could argue that the whole thing you say done as well, because he's like I was young and it was ideal and I was pastoral and then I fucked it up. Yeah, yeah, this innocence to experience, experiencing and and as I would tell all my students, it's Walton's epiphany. HMM. Oh, and yes, I've also said here this is where I went. Yes, what about Paradise Lost in Genesis? Right, because they are novels of ideal, but they are literally about man's becoming in the world. This is how those trials then led to the shift in historical narrative. They are not novels but, as we've seen, Buckton's playing pretty fast and loose with his periods and, example, walls what are you saying? There are these five categories. I wonder if this is less like if we look at all the buildouns fromm we can categorize these into these five groups. or He's saying these are the five stages of development. I think that makes more sense, where if you start out with an ideally stick and idyllic, pastoral nostalgic story, then we start seeing things with that is corrupted into synericism, then we start seeing these full biographical stories of education, then we see more pedagogical things, until finally all of that's merge together in this fifth category. I think maybe that's how it's rather than five distinct categories. They're all yeah, because he wants to keep like we read his thing about human rebelous, and Buckton has a big bonner for revelous and wants to bring him in all the time. But as we see, Revelis is g Ganta and Pentacle, which he gives as the first example of this most significant fifth build imm is actually from fifteen fifty one, when this novel is meant to not be developed until Gerda and Dickens and things so rock shit you're ath it. It's translated. It I think it was. Yeah, as we said, it was an unfinished essay that he just sort of rattled off. So I wonder if this is something that wasn't fully formed and then it's become influential people picked up on it rather than him wanting to put it forward in its form because he's his book on Rebelis and comedy was actually very detailed and good and then convincing. So the writing here is notably different either way. Butler says it is this fifth sort of buildocs from a novel that is written by Pratchett, although, as we pointed out before, Pratchett not writing realistic fiction. So yes, now moving into Butler's actual analysis of Mord as one of these build unction man, as he points out, the apprentice market sets the stage for a typical reduction the fooish apprentice making mistakes as he learns the job and having to correct them through his own resourcefulness, but the situation being made worse by the continual absence of the master. STARBRUCK, who I hope we've introduced earlier. Also points out that death does not seem to want to leave it to chance whether mort gains these insights along the way. So he intentionally uses the method of the socalled hidden curriculum in a pedagogical manner in order to teach his apprentice one of the most important crew work was it's of the job, a sense of reality, while the same time checking for it. That's not really teaching him things. He's sort of letting him more work it out for himself, I guess. Yeah, you're right. He's like I'll be flipping burghers. Literally. You've a ever do that with you black belt. You do the impenetrable drum defense. Nor anyone in my phd so far giving me a hidden curriculum. But maybe that's the plan job. Maybe it's all part of a hidden curriculum right now. But yeah, see, it uses the Mr miagui method in a pedagogical manner in order to teach more one of the most important prerequisites a death job a sense of reality, while the same time checking for it, which so this is this is the point where he's making him clean out the stables, to humbling, but also to be like, don't lose sight of like the real world. You're not some God now, you're just a man, which I think is interesting. But this, to me, this is a didactic education and also a novel of ordeal, right death is checking for mort's Hubbleness and sense of reality, or objectification, I don't know. But those argument of why, more is this fifth kind of epoch inducing build duncswer many is that mort's education literally creates a new history. He says why? We we get to the end of the novel and history has been changed because of what's actions. But I saw a push back against that because yes, but what more does is, and what he's trying to do the entire time is restore order. So it is. It is a different history, but he has restored history. So it's kind of this like return narrative more so than like, I don't think anything about the society itself changes. It's just the names. Yeah, okay,...

I see you going for us to see his like central point. He's just saying, like Kha, like he literally brings in a new period of time. But also get he restores the thing that he fucked up in the first place. And that's what most of these novels are. And a friend is doing something dumb and then spending the rest of movie panicky to try and put it back together. And Yeah, when it's put back together and nothing is fundamentally changed other than that the woman who saved the lady like that. So you know you've got to save the girl. And these, well, he doesn't save her, but a lot of these is restored by her diet. Doesn't like say, well, I reprace, saves her from like the situation, so to speak, and then he goes back with the well, he says deaths order kind of thing, and then they would happily ever after, which was an interests I want to talk about later. So I don't know, I think it's bit of aous. I say we are going for, and I guess we're sort of led to leave that. The social hierarchy has been changed by more. Will then bring his education and humility to this that he's gonna like. Well, wasn't it that they killed off the princess so this new good dude could take control? And then that would bring in a new air of something? And now isn't it death says at the end that he has to be like remember, you still have to do x, Y and Z to make sure this happens. So it's kind of there, but it would have happened anyway. Now more it's just in charge of doing it right. Either way, we don't actually see what Mortz rain is like the more just able, crafty academia then. And Yeah, I don't think we really get any sense that he's made any significant change in the later death books, but will perhaps discuss that when we get to them. And more convincing argument the Butler makes about more being a bill duncer around rather than a novel of a deal is that more isn't static. Right, we get this specific paragraph in the middle of the novel where the narrative flights stops and we pull back and the narrator says it might be worth taking another look at more, because he's changed a lot in the last few chapters. For example, why he still has plenty of knees and elbows about his person, they seem to have migrated to their normal places and he no longer moves as though his joints were loosely fastened together with elastic air. He used to look as if he knew nothing at all. Now he looks as though he knows too much. So yes, we're being having our attention drawn to mort has changed. More is developing. Look at this, but at the same time that entire description is physical. What is more confident, but his actual internal values, which are the thing that having tested throughout this novel, is his humanity and compassion. They were always there from the start and they haven't changed. It's not like he becomes more callous and then death has to intervene because more's gone through far more. Has Always had this core of humanity that death is trying to pull out of him, and he maintains that and fails the test because he saves the the Princess Kelly. But then at the end when he tries to make amends, he doesn't end up repenting on that. He fights death to say that and again fails there. So there's a subversion that he is failing these trials but ultimately wins in that death takes mercy on him because him and and as a bell have shown humanity right. It's this testing of a constant quality. I think we come back to like again, this is a post one fantasy novels because kind of both at the same time like yeah, okay, you can be a good person at heart, but then you've got to like grow and change and develop, but also it's just that thing becoming more and more evident as you grow up, as you say. So, yeah, I just don't know if, like, this isn't a what's the development from innocence to experience? More? Isn't like, Oh, I love humanity and then I see the pointlessness of night life. He stays innocent. M It's more that he confronts experience and doesn't let it corrupt or jade him. He's just like okay, okay, keep fighting the good fight. The well, look at this more when, when we get to the heroes journey stuff. But I think there's something there either way. But La says that death has not accounted for the human factor in his plan, and I'm like, death more empathizes with the dying and asked about justice, which, according to death, is nonexistent. Right, this is there afraid of? There's no justice, there's just us. So I want to poise. Then, is this book? Deaths build UN rooms from, and not mort's right. It's death who changes history, which is changed because of Isabelle, not more, and it's death who changes internally rather than externally. Yeah, I see your point. I just think that then we're projecting onto it because, like, it's called more, but also it's about death. So yeah, but did Pratchett sit down and go, I'm gonna like conflate all of these different things and like make you think it's going to be about more, but actually it's me and it's going to be my building's Romank or who was he? Like? Let's just play around with his coming of age thing. Well, I don't think he's going. I'm going to engage with body and literary theory, but I think he definitely has the ideas of the the novel of Education, Right, the coming of age story that the heroes apprenticeship and the ideal of I think he had much more of a classical fantasy novel of idea, Odeal in mind when he wrote this, which will get to. But I think he's very deliberate in the point is right, and this is cliched, that the student teaches the master. Right. The point of this book is death learns to be human from teaching more, not that more learns to be death. So if we're looking at who actually changes, I think it's death and also, on the terms of it literally creates a new history. What doesn't...

...through that he fails trying to preserve the history he has accidentally created. It is death who changes the world to be the way it is. At the end of the novel there saying it's a building's Rooman of death, yes, and a novel of a deal, not. Okay, I think this is a novel of a deal for more and a build uncerment for death. That is my reading of it. But Butler doesn't say this. Butler is arguing it is mort's build uncer plan. But that is my reading of it. But Butler says what is important is not the education of goal but the narrative structure of this is Buckin's whole point is it doesn't matter about all these generic details, it's about the way the hero is presented. Butler gree saying that what is important is not the educational goal but the narrative structure of the questing anti hero, his development in the fantasy build duncerroment hinges upon the conflict and equilibrium with the secondary world and who thereby strives to find a way of life there's both suitable for his interests and desires and also socially compatible. But then that that's to me brings it back to I think structurally it's pretty clear that more is not being or more is being tested. He is not developing, he's being tested for an inmate humanity. See, I don't know if I agree with Butler about this. Like and again it's the definitions, because we don't see death from like the very start and how he starts out and then like the process of change. It's more like he is around character rather than a flat character. So it's not just like I'm death, it's like, Oh, I'm death and I'm developing. And also his kid from like you know, kidness, adolescence. So now, so it's there. But like, is it a building's room on? Because that's meant to follow you by a graphically. But we've just looked at all these different definitions. Is that a very similar rights of different. So, yeah, I see your point that death by definition exists outside of real time. Yeah, which maybe he's subverting. MMM, I don't know. Well, maybe not in more itself. But I think if you're saying yeah, there's not enough here for it to be deaths build arms around what? What I think we will see is death development over the death series. Right, like with mcgrat how it took three books for like her full arc. We're definitely going to see, like Pratchett takes this education of death and runs with it through the rest of the debt series. So we'll come back to this. Another reason that more might be so readily characterized and associated with the bill dugs woman is it's often been read as a parody of Dickens, which, as we saw as these major examples, are probably the most wellknown examples now of these fiducts froman so yeah, there's often parallels drawn between Pratchett and Dickens. Right and roody claims that journalism reviewers, though they don't incite any. But he says, journals reviewers have commonly referred to Pratchett as the Dickens of the twenty century due to their common lambasting of the impact of everyday life, of cultural values and how individuals become implicit in social injustice and authoritary populism, not the good road of hits on and made a lot of money from it. So yeah, Dickens of the days, and that also just seems a pretty broad description that you could apply to a lot of authors, though there's there's something here, and that the death novels, not not just more but the other ones as well. Are largely about the redefinition of work during the S, and Rudy also connects this with reaganomics. Right and Thedis is when practice writing this. So he's saying what's going on in modest death is outsourcing his labor and yeah, he can trust more traditional apprenticeships and depths emphasis on empathy with the contemporary version of welfare. So this is through a diminishing commitment to communal, structured responsibility, which we will definitely revisit this in regards to reprimand. But sort of setting up that there's already a critique of this work and labor force being embedded into more just with their depiction of the the apprentice ship there. But you you said you notice the Dickensie and allusions here. I don't know if I really buy this more being a parody of Dickens thing. I think the illusions are pretty superficial and in consequential. I don't think it's a parody. I don't think I go so far as say it's a parody. I think it's just like hey, I'm kind of doing the same thing as dickens where it take this kid and I apprenticed him and here's me throwing some fun little illusions at you. If you've read it that you'll get, like it's the same. He does some of the things in other books that now I can't remember. Like there's just tiny little illusions to just literature. And it's kind of funny that, you know, she keeps calling him boy and they keep calling him boys, like, Haha. I have read, you know, the great expectation. So I get like and that's I don't think there's anything else to it. And there for I think it's a parody. Well that those are the two things that the critics I read your attentially there's the hiring see at the start, parodies that of other to all of a twist, right, which I agree. Yes, the actual death, hired more at the start, is a parody of all of the twist hiring because he goes to work for a mortuary in all of a twist. So okay, yes, that is a little funny, Haha, inversion. But then the story goes in a different direction. Obviously has more in common with great expectation, great expectations, with modern ears, Abelle's relationship and, as you pointed out, her calling him boy, although I read something the other day, or in relation to this, where someone else was calling someone boy and I can't remember what it was, but I think it was like contemporaneous to Dickens and I'm like, Oh, maybe that's like not a specific dickens things. It's just probably wasn't. But then Dickens has become so, so sure, right, prevalent and like every fucking school, every second year, puts on either great expectations...

...are all of a twist, like it is so embedded in culture, so much more than here. So yeah, I think like people go home like yeah, like pip, even if it was just a thing that, yeah, every thing we're doing, and it is interesting that all of it, as you said, all of a twist and great expectations are the ones that have persevered. And I would say a Christmas Carol Right now one's talk about David Copperfield anymore and that's interesting to me because I think those three dicken stories are the more stranged of his works. Right, I mean Christmas Carol is a ghost story. Great expectations is realist but is heavily gothic. Right. You've got what's her name with the weird frozen wedding and all of that and starts in a graveyard and then, all of a twist, is like this. It's not a strange from the real world, but it is sort of in this like underground of thieves and it's common billity. So it's interesting that, if not the more fantastic, the more removed, the less realistic, of Dickens novels are the ones that seem to have persevered, whereas his realistic writing in and he's straight build unswer runs that he was known for, like David coopp field, of sort of just drifted away because they no longer relevant. Sort of says to me fantastic literature stands the test of time better because it exists outside of I would a different literally differ. It's testing boundaries, is challenging expectations, challenging great expectation. Hey, yeah, I think that is what we did with it as well, like I do the standard. So feel signed as model approach, but I'll believe it. Yeah, now we'll come back to dickens right at the end, in eighteen years when we get to dodger, which is horrible and I think miss is the point of all of a twist. Having revisited in preparation to this. But yes, that is for another podcast. Yes, as but those article points out, project presents not just a fantastic builduncer around, but a comedic one. And but explains on this idea in his chapter on theories of humor and the guilty of literature collections, where he presents and critiques the twenty century models of comedy forwarded by Luigi Pri Anddello, Henry Bergs and Sigmund Freud, Jack La Khan and, of course, Michael Buckton. We're back, we can't get away and I thought this was interesting to look at because this is kind of what we did with weird sisters when we were doing the whole Wi isn't this funny thing, and I went away and pulled all these theories of humor and we were trying to like compare how it's stack to them. That's essentially what he does, but with more and he's using sort of early twenty century theories of humor and we were using later ones. But I feel weird about that segment we did on the weird sisters thing, like I feel bad that we opened a shore with a half hour brand. If we go into scientifically prove why this isn't funny. I think we don't come off great, but I yeah, well, I remember it and I remember that. The reason I included that there was so the when we got to hear I was like, AH, look the the PREJETT scholls, they're doing this as well. So to quickly go through them all. The tern literary critic Luigi Perandello says the comedy equals ridiculousness. Right, it's something trying to be something it's not. So we see this in death, is trying to be humor. That is where some of the humor comes from, with the flipping burghers and all of that. More substantial is the French philosopher Henry Bergson, who says that humor is a reaction to rigidy. Right, it's tackling the inability to break habits or adapt to new situations. We laugh every time a person gives us the impression of being a thing, which Butler responds. We are equally amused when things try to behave like people. So we have this in more this is a thing, death trying to behave like a person, and it is a person more trying to behave like death. and therein lies the comedy of errors and this match this theory, as Butler explains in his chapter, is sort of debunked. It is too specific, it's too narrow an example. It doesn't really serve as a general explanation of humor. But yes, I think it's very applicable to more but it's also applicable to granny weather wax right this her whole thing is you can't treat people like things, which is what Bergson saying, is that we see the break in the world when I thing Tris act like a person or Austras act like a thing. See, I thought that was interesting. That is sort of pulling humor from there while rallying against it in the witches series. Again we have this weird disconnect between some of the ideologies that are coming through and these two series. Analysis of humor is also a fundamental part of the psycho and political theories posited by Sigmund Freud, how favorite, and he says that jerks and word play a part of the child's transition from infancy to adolescence. For that, by presenting human and with the Child, is trying to show that there they've come of age and they are trying to impress others beyond their mother, which is ridiculous, but also sort of connects with this coming of age build uncermun thing. It makes more sense that are when you look at it through the Lens of the latter cycle analysis. Are Jacques for can now. Previously, in a previous episode you asked me what the difference between Lakano for it is and I didn't know. But there are a little bit of a look into it and I think the differences are pretty similar to the differences between first and second way feminist in that there are a lot of like little detail things about their specific like conceptions of the unconscious and all of that. But like in a broad sense, Freud sees the unconscious and all these archetypes as innate, like everyone is inborn with the specific unconscious things in them and then they unconsciously inform how we act just because that is what is embedded in the human brain, whereas Lakhan says, yes, there is this unconscious thing and in these archetyypes, but they are informed...

...and created by society that we are reacting to, or they are manifested of natural things as well, but it's they shape society rather than people. It's not just that. There is this er unconscious it's an interaction. So yeah, it's the difference between innate and socially constructed symbols. So here, rather than Sigmund Freud being like the Felic, is the fallic, it is a penis and it is a desire for the penis. La Can abstracts, that to say it is representative of Patriarchal Power. So yeah, Freud would say you have a Desia, penis envy, you have a design. I had to see the Fallas and you can't see the fellas. So you sees power because that's the next best thing. Or, as like card says, everyone wants power and that becomes associated with the Fellas, which doesn't really have much to do with with mort I mean, obviously there's this idea of patriarchal power and death right. A laconium reading therefore suggest that more is trying to impress his two fathers. He's real father, which is why he takes the apprenticeship at the start, and death the patriarchal simple and that he fails to impress either of them through his immaturity. So I guess that's where your psycho analytical reading is fucking creative it. Okay. Well, yeah, I think the idea of patriarchy applies, but you can do that outside of psychoanalysis. An interesting observation that Butler makes is, though, that there are no mothers or maternal figures in more right. We don't know what's happening with MORT's moither me. I think even esque doesn't have a mother. It's her father who wants to get rid of a where. Yeah, he says. The most maternal figures in mortar perhaps the witch. That sort of takes him under a wing at the start when he goes to collector. And then the only other female characters are Kelly and Isabel, who are immature. So not a strong showing for mature women in the early Pratchett novels, though. The next novel that comes along at what they're sorcery, but then we get weird sisters a couple of books later on. We've already had granny and equal rights. So but it seems like the the Jenders I've been kept separate as these separate modes going on in the in the early books. So yes, their final theory, he thinks that is, is that of Buckton. Then again, and he says there are three elements of the bucked in carnivalesque, which we already discussed, in relation to which is abroad. There is the collapsing of social structures and frequent reversals of power, which obviously we see in more and death and in even the kings and Queens of our star. Still that. There's also the scatological parody, which he points to the scene with the princess and the peach. We remember, I know the story. Yeah, okay, yeah, well, no, there there's one throwaway jokin more that Albert, who we haven't brought up all this because I don't know where he fits in it, but he's like, yeah, I remember there was a story about a princess who peter bed or something. Yeah, but was really pointing to this going look at how scatological it is, and it's this one throwaway line, and also he's just pointed out how like sexless and chased it is. So I don't know, see, I don't know. I wouldn't say scatological parody is a defining aspect of Pratchett's humor and more and then, finally, the playful exchanges of insults between more and Isabelt which again it's sort of more a parody of Dickens that style of writing rather than this carnivalesque in version. But I do think at the core of more there's obviously the idea is the flipping off social powers like one if your kid was deaths are there. That is a Butler's analysis. Clute also addresses the comedic aspects of pratchet's early writing in he's coming of age chapter, noting that the comic novel, which is distinctly unfriendly to formal comedy, he says, though I don't know why, makes discworld and experiment in a form which classically heals a world which has been threatened with instability by returning that world to a prior state of wellbeings, as is talking about the healing power of comedy which again we see in more right at the end, order is restored. He also says there will be no proper understanding of the discoorse story until that series ends. Sorry, he's right in this, about half way through the series. Here we are after the series ends, so we're in the perfect position. What do you think about this ideal of discworld and and the comedic novel being representative of returning the world to a state of prior wellbeing. We have not returned the world. There was no state of well being. There will be no state of will being. I guess I was talking more in relation to discrede all right, I thought, you know, like what was practic doing now that the series of ended, like did the seat series fix the words? So too, I'm strutted from that. I think what he's saying is that part of the point of comedy as a reassurance that things will go back to how they were, right, and that these early novels perhaps suggest that right, the kingdom at the end of more is restored. So I guess we don't see that. An equal rights where it ends with and then there was feminism and the world was changed forever, our thought, and even then it was just like someone was allowed into the university, like that's the still a whole process that like this still worked, because that's meant to be metaphorical and representative. I think we have a much more definitive social upheaval and new epoch at the end of equal rights than we do at the end of all yeah, he says we don't know if this will persevere until this series ends, and given that I've recently gone through the entire series. Yeah, Prattett did not go in for this nostalgic return to order thing. R At there. The series ends with an industrial revolution of the introduction of trains and things which made things worse. Well, definitely in terms of the book itself, phrasing steam is are not good, but that's that's in sort of the mainline series. Right. We get...

...this industrial revolution taking over at the back third of the discworb books, but the final book, the shepherd's Crown, does sort of have this nostalgic return where it brings back all the characters for a war with the elves and we have cut the common things, returning of from equal rights specifically. So I don't know about that one. will discuss that more when we get there. But I guess in the children's books there is this nostalgic thrust. Perhaps clip builds on this. They're adding that comedies tendency towards circular narratives there is reflected in most modern fantasy, which derives from Tokens, Lord of the Rings, and it's profoundly Christian in its desire to both return to an earlier eden and also to find it again at the end. This is just him saying that this tendency to return to a pre lapse arean state is characteristic of both comedy and one fantasy, beginning with Lord of the Rings. Right. This is a return to the shy. Yeah, I would say that it's not actually representative of Christianity. I think Christianity and those ideals are representative of humanity. Humanity likes the return to the goodness. I think that that's a chicken before the egg and the come on like Heine and a Freudian divide. I was thinking all that is kind of just like the psychoanalytical take on it, that like, oh, it is because of Christianity, and I get it in Talken, because token talcom was like yeah, he wants to return to the Christian world because that is his like allegory. That is what's going on. But with perpture, we know WHO's postmoderness. So he's fucking about with these things and like maybe that's part of it, but I think it's also just speaking to this large and thing. If we like to return to, you know, the safe Huberton music playing in the background, Gandal smoking his pipe, everyone's happy, kind of thing, right. But you have up that like direct lineage of Genesis and Christian prelapse areanism directly influences, talking Lord the Rings, which then does directly sets the template for all you know. Monnas think it's it's not. Genesis is just humans, but then humans express themselves to genesis. So I think we may have arrived. And Yeah, just difference to now. Yeah, you're being Freudy and and you're saying, well, that was innate rather than being reveryinforced by my Apersyde is kicking him. My other a, allaris and, is kicking in, and that's like, well, why do we tell stories and why do we like stories being the way we like them? That's kind of how I view it. And then Christian is part of that framework. But I think we disagree on this, or it's not even a strong opinion I have. I'm just trying to decipher this, like the point clutes trying to make here, and I think what he's saying is that if project goes this other way, which I'm saying he does, but the industrial revolution like that is part of his subversion of fantasy. Yeah, I give you that, but then it doesn't work if he's saying, well, this return to nature or return to a prelapsarian state is part of comedy as well, and Pratchett is not doing that, because he's using comedy to undermine the idea of a return. I don't know, it doesn't fit in good. These are the ideas many. I don't really buy plutes point in relation to comedy. But yeah, I agree that he is subverting fantasy tropes and trying to be funny about it, because the reality is that we can't return to even like that's the whole thing. You can't return to Eden. You're now stuck in this inful world with all the sinners. Have Fun, let's invent trains like my help being spoken like a true satanist. It's R we're not really sure what's going on there. But this idea of cycle brings us around to yes, or I've just hit towards this, but I want to do a reading of mored as as a traditional heroes journey and see how that stacks up against the interpretation of it as a dancer Rant, which is a pretty famous concept, but it's something you're quite familiar with, Alice, having written your honest thesis about it. Do you want to introduce the Campbell's Heroes Journey? So Joseph Campbell was actually writes a book called the Heroes Journey where he argues quite broadly that almost all kind of adventure on modern fantasy novels or in in one point he kind of just says all books am about a figure follow a kind of quintessential or stereotypical process which he calls that the Heroes Journey, with a series of stages. You've got twelve there, and he kind of breaks it all down and analyzes and says look, in this we see it and in this we see it. and honestly, that was that has been used since then to structure stories like Harry Potter is famously just rolling to a heroes journey and when let's just fill in all the gaps. That's a choose your an adventure and I'm in charge kind of thing. It is psychoanalytical and the same way that Freud kind of work where for it was like live at all these examples and in fiction that must mean that's how our brains are. That's where I'm taking our evidence. He kind of did the same thing and was like I'm going to look at fiction, I'm going to take my evidence from there, and therefore we have these stages and, as we know, if you go in being like this is my thing and you don't look at it broadly, you end up missing a lot of stuff. And obviously you know the same way Buckton is like there are five ways of writing a book, but they overlap quite a bit and it's very complicated. Same sort of thing here, like, yeah, a lot of the rings is pretty archetypal heroes, journey stuff, and the architect kind of emerged, but also it's a very sensical way of writing a book about that kind of thing. So we're back to chicken egg psychology, psychoanalysis. You know, I'm glad you brought that up because, yes, a big point is that he is talking about these as unconscious or the hero as an unconscious archetype that is embedded within humanity. And his evidence for this is he's looking at all these early myths from all these different cultures, right Gilgamesh and Japanese things and Greek, and saying well, they all follow the same patent. And this is like you have f flood narratives in Gilgramas in Genesis and all...

...of this, across all these things, are his conclusion from a forty end. Thing is, then, how did these all erupt in all these different places brains? It can't be. Yeah, must be. Yeah, it's not like these people may be talked and all there are there as a reason why, a cultural reason, to take a more laconium or materialist, materialist perspective on it, of like why stories influence to take this structure rather than it being an nate thing. So he's talking about them as an eight but, as you also said, right then Campbell's heroes journey then becomes influential as a template itself, and I think, yeah, it's not psycho an analytical, it is cultural. There might be something here in terms of the way our brains function, the way we like to read, like we like heroes stories, and then I think this kind of just doubles down like well, there's a difference between that reading of like there are receptors in our brain that respond to certain types of stories, therefore they become popular, than saying there is a archetype of a hero embedded in our brains who will come out and follow the time. Its former. I'm in the form again. Yeah, right, sir. I just want to smash through these twelve stages and talk about how they apply to more, and part of this is that these categories are sort of broad enough that they can apply to a lot of different stories without being that specific, though I think there is a lot about the language and specificity here that sort of, if not directly deliberately, applies to more. It is interestingly incidental. Well, I would say Pratchett knew this and was like, I'm a do it like anyway. Right. Well, that is the question I wanted to ask at the end, but you're that's your hypothesis, so I will see how this goes. So we're now. We're going to going to go through Cabel twelve stages now, and I did do a bunch of research where I read the hero with a thousand faces and I wrote all these notes and they did say properly. So what we're doing here is I'm just using the broad its descriptions from wikipedia. This is bad scholarship, but I'm not re reading that book and making more notes for a twenty minute pubcast segment. So here we go. So the first stage is departure, and this begins with the call to adventure. The era begins in a situation of normality, from which some information is received that acts as are called to head off into an unknown region, such as a distant land or profound dream state full of strangely fluid and polymorphous peaks. Right. So this to me is it's not really a call to adventure. But we have their call to apprenticeship, where he's taken out of the real world into the strange land of deaths don't make. Yeah, so this is the fairytale time that they're backing. Is Talking. Campbell also says that the adventure may begin as a MEA blunder. Sorry, this is sort of a mix up of death apprenticeship that his father thinks he's becoming much now again, this is cable does a lot of like. It may begin as I me a blood, but it might not. So just because it does doesn't mean that it fits this thing. But that is something Carebul says ample, where he's like gives you. He does that, you know, cold reading things like I've did you write a story with a hero's name that begins with our bed Mos? Yes, this is then followed by the refusal of the call often the hero first refuses the call from a sense of duty, fear or even in out inadequacy. So yes, after all these statements, the question is, does this apply to more Alice? Yes, because all it's like, oh, but I okay, like he kind of is resistant, but he also just goes along with what he's dad says. Yeah, I think he feels inadequate, but I think he doesn't really refuse the call. He's like it's more that he accepts the call out of sense of duty. Right. It's like, well, I shouldn't be, that's apprentice, but if that's what you want me to do. Like so, Daddy, you're seeing. Are you okay? All Right, sure by dad. And cavil says that Walden Boredom, hard work or culture, the subject loses the power of significant affirmative action, becomes a victim to be saved. Is Flowering well, becomes a waste land of dry stones and his life feels meeting less. Whatever house he builds, it will be a house of death. Well, he can do is create new problems for himself and await the gradual approach of his disintegration. Just take this kind of scholarship. Well, this is sort of broad enough that it could apply to anything, but I think applies pretty yeah, it's a house of fair it's it's a house of death, but all. Sorry. Yeah, more becomes a victim of his apprenticeship. His his bored, he's Walden, he wants to go out his life. Bill's meaningless. I think this is definitely evident in more, even wrapped so if he doesn't refuse the call, he is dissatisfied with his colleagues. We then have a supernatural aid. So once the hero is committed to the quest, they guide and magic will help, or appears, presenting the hero with tells theman's that will aid them later. Such a figure represents the benign, protecting power of destiny, I promise, of that piece of paradise that is not to be lost. And in so far as the heroes are coincides, but that for which their society itself is ready, they seem to ride on in the great rhythm of the historical process. So obviously that last very poorly written sentence is awful. That right, we're seeing this idea of the laps air and returned, that Cluton Butler we're talking about. But the idea that they are trying to ride on the great rhythm of the historical process. Right, that's more. Yeah, what about the presenting the hero with tellsman's because I had think this is like death gives in the side and the sword and the timer and things. There's like he can read all the books in the library, as going to say,...

...the which that he kills, who kind of helps him that supernatural light as well. But obviously there's the other more of his one. He is given tellsman's or equipment that the come back to be his later, where I'm wondering he's we messes for. Where is Albert fitted into this? I don't know. Man. So again, the sort of it. This is loose enough that we could apply it to a lot of things. But what I'm looking at here is like fantasy literalizers metaphor and prospon fantasy subverts it, and there's a lot of the wording in this that Pratchett is literally realizing. What if there was a hero whose act coincided with that for which their society was ready, and they seem to ride on the great rhythm of historical process, which also ties into that Buck Dean goldogs are memory. All right, then, we have the crossing of the first threshold. The Hero crosses into the field of adventure, leaving the known limits of their world and venturing into an unknown and dangerous realm where the rules and limits are unknown until he comes to the threshold Guardian at the entrance to the zone of magnified power. Beyond them is darkness, the unknown and danger. Just say it in one sorry, sorry, I should stop editing Campbell as what now. You should. It's awful. The usual person is more than content. He is even proud to remain within the indicated bounds, and popular belief gives him every reason to fear so much as the first step into the unexplored. So for more, this is his first job that he goes out on. Right, he's crossing out of his apprenticeship, now that you've got to go on your first job. But also from the other perspective, this is a subversion of that. In mort's job is to comfort people as they step into the unknown. Right. Next up we have the ugly named belly of the whale, which represents the final separation from the hero is known world itself. By entering the stage, the hero shows a willingness to undergo metamorphosis or rebirth. Instead of conquering or conciliating the power of the the threshold, the hero swallowed into the unknown and would appear to have died. So, yes, I don't think this applies to more so much. Maybe he appears to be death, but Kelly appears to have died like literally. So yes, that this is what again to so much of the wording of this where it seems like the story of more literalizes these metaphors. and I wonder how coincidental that is. You reckoning and reading it, just ticking it off ago at let's do it. Well, maybe there's a lot of coincidence. Is here and yes, rollings doing this. This is his fourth discord book and maybe he's playing with these ideas, and I'm not sure. So that's how like cool to adventure or departure section with n have the initiations. This is the road of trials, which is a series of tests that the hero must undergo to begin the transformation. Often the here are fails one or more of these tests, which often occur in threes and more, to send out and his first job on to get three salts right. It's the which the Abbot and then Princess Kelly, which he fails and Campbell says of maybe that he here discovers for the first time that there is a benign power everywhere supporting him in his huge superhuman passage, all his humanity. Okay, all right, rather and if we tie this back to the novel of ordeal, this is where more discovers it's his. He has the first one where he goes out with death and he tries to save the dude the party and death stops him, and then he goes out on his own and he does the same thing. So this is another evidence that mort's like inner attitudes aren't really changing. I'm just seeing parallels to win. Virgil was taking Dante through hell and dn'tag is constantly like, Oh, let's sympathize or empathize, and he's like no, no, they're in hell. You're not allowed, but there are some people you're allowed to simple what fizes with in limbo, but it's a big thing in Dante, like a big thing. So when they first get into how downtoe's, look at all the people on the boat, because they kind of go through the anteroom and then they get on Jaron's Charon's belt boat they're going across and he's like no, these people where. I'm sad for them, and then Virgil really tells him off, is like no, you know, not allowed. And it's kind of this interference of humanity with divine grace kind of thing, because these people deserve to be in hell because they lost their face. So we're not allowed to feel sympathy for them. But it's like a really interesting psychological kind of response rather than just the very boring piers plow and approach of like they're in hell now, no more about them. But then they go to limbo and they see, you know what's always funny to me is they see like real people, like Pythagoras, and then also like made up people are there from Greek fiction or whatever, and Virgil feels sympathy for them because he's a poet. These are the people. There's other people there, but he's most interested in the poets and he's like Oh, they here because they're in limbo because they died before, obviously, Christianity developed, and so the horring of hell for them, which is when Jesus came down. I was like Bang, Bang, Bang, kicks in the door apparently rapes everyone's souls. I just takes them without force and goes up to heaven. So he takes like Abraham and nor and all those people who are before Christianity but who were like Christian dudes. Apparently I just leaves everyone else there and they're like who is that? Because they don't know who is they're just like, well, is that's deal? Anyway, back to our discussions. Virgil feels AH, the sympathy for them interesting. Dante is kind of like, Oh, yeah, they're cool and he really likes them, but there's not like he doesn't sympathize with them the way he does with like the people who are getting their feet toasted or whatever. So I just thought that was interesting given what we're talking about here. What's interesting there to me is it's it's the same like structural thing, but the moral part of it is like this is the Catholic covinistic divide, is that Dante's allowed to sympathize with them because their cinema sinners and they don't deserve mercy for his death. is like there is no moral judgment right.

You're not allowed to sympathize with them because it doesn't matter. It's moderness, yes, but I think morts divine power. His heroic characteristic is his humanity, is his sympathy. So that's what he's discovering during these trials, and it's he fails his trials, quote unquote, because of his sympathy, but in fact that is why he succeeded. Actually, we then have the weirdly named meeting with the goddess, and this is where the hero gains items given to him that will help him in the future. So it's just another lot of trinkets, cameral proposes. This stage is commonly represented as a mystical marriage of the triumphant hero soul with the Queen Goddess of the world, who is incarnate in every woman. This is the crisis at the utmost edge of the earth, or within darkness of the Deepest Chamber of the heart. This is the final of the test of the hero to win the Boon of love, which is life itself, enjoyed as the encasement of eternity. So again subverted in that persone way. But more is falling in love with Kelly. That's why he saves like she's a hot chick. So even though prejudice not playing into this, he's subverting it. He still that is a step on mort's journey within have the woman as temptress and in this step the hero faces those temptations, often of a physical or pleasurable nature that may lead them to abandon all. Straight from that quest if you want to hear more about this, you can listen to the first part of Alice and Peters analysis of the Fairy Queen on the of the Devil's Party podcast and the noy that it's got woman as tempers just call it the temptation, like a move on. Even Jesus, it was just temptation in the desert and it was the devil. The Devil was whatever, whatever, letting it go. Well, you've talked about the the temperares specifically in your episodes. Why? I do encourage people to go listen to that. But if we are looking at as a female temptation, here at more is tempted by Kelly. That is the whole point. He fails within have the atonement with the father or the abyss. In this step the hero must confront and be initiated by the father or father figure who has life and death power. Sound like anyone in more figer father figure with life and death. No wanna? Yeah, okay now, Campbell rights that one must have faith that the father is merciful and then reliance on that mercy. It is in this ordeal that the hero may derive hope and assurance from the helpful female figure by whose magic they are protected through all the fighting experiences of the father's Ego, shadowing initiation. So this is pretty clearly what has a confrontation with his father, figured death, which he fails. Right. This is his ego shutowing initiation, but he is helped by Isabelle, the helpful female figure whose magic saves him. Right. I'm just so hung up on the back goodness of the language. The couple's not a great dirt. Yeah, like the Patriarchal Heterosexual, like Whoa Kempell then says the hero transcends life with its peculiar blind spot and for a moment rises to a glimpse of the source. They behold the face of the father, understand and the two are atoned. So that's more than death. Again, I'm still I'm not sure where Albert fits in. He just seems like he's off and he's are. The story just becall it relief, like honestly, he was one of my favorite parts when he comes back to the UNI and like he goes down the barb but the road is like, how dare you charges money? That's great. I really liked him as well, although I was disappointed to discover that all of that happens in one book. I had my memory that that reveal of our being the found ever run seen. University is built up over the entire death series and then it's only in, but straightaway it's like who is over? Oh, here's this guy, and I get it. I was just like, oh, that happens straight away. It's good. I like that. Yeah, within have apotheosis. Fund with his new knowledge and perception, the hero is resolved and ready for the more difficult part of the adventure, which she has. He had the confrontation with death, but the real problem that more has to solve is fixing history sort of out of order, but it is accounted for and we have the ultimate boom, which is what the hero went on the journey to get, something transcendent like the Elixir of life itself or a plant that supplies immortality. Those aren't transcendent thinks. They are fit what a like? Surely it's like humanity or self realization, some actualization. So it's well, they're not transcendent in Campbell's examples, but in what they are. Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, so that is the initiation which, if we apply that to apprenticeship, more fails. He is apprenticeship but graduates as a fully realized human or something. We then have the return, beginning with the refusal of their term, which is when the hero request has been accomplished, but the adventure still must return with his life, transmuting trophy or his sleeping princess, back to the Kingdom of humanity, the nation, the planet or the tender and worlds. Well, I don't know if more refuses to return so much, but he does return and renew the community, the nation, the planet or the the discworld itself, again leading into the idea of it as a change in the epoch of human history. And I think, especially with these last categories in the return, these are sort of are like some of these could happen. It's no longer this continual. Things like these are some of the things that might happen at the end, because next we have the magic flight, if the hero, in his triumph, wins the blessing of the goddess of the God and is then explicitly commission to return to the world with some Elixir for the restoration of society. The final stage of his adventure is supported by all the powers of his supernatural patriarch, which, yes, I guess that applies. Death, is helping him fix things at the end. Agree, Kay, supported. Okay. Have the rescue from without, which is when the hero may have to be brought back from his supernatural adventure by...

...assistants from without, that is to say, the world may have time to come and get him at this happens with more he sacrifices himself and Isabel and Albert managed to bring him back on. There's so many categories where the crossing of the return threshold and Campbell says that the returning hero, to complete his adventure, must survive the impact of the world. The trigger returning is to retain all the wisdom gained on the quest and then to integrate that wisdom into human life and then maybe figure out how to share the wisdom with the rest of the world. This is the argument about the changing epoch that Butler's trying to make right. It's builduns from a but if we look at the architepical fantasy ordeal narrative, this idea of the hero are returning and changing the bog of history is built into Campbell's drill stages. So I don't think it's quite as as neat as Butler or bucked in making out the risk of sounding crass, I do think pressure. It was just like I'm a right, a fun story that kind of subvert stereotypes and yeah, I reckon. He had a list or an exult friendship or something similar. Well, he's just following the fantasy narrative right, he's at this point. He's still ring heard is a fantancy novels. But I don't think you could do as close and analysis of these steps with the other books. So the point I'm trying to make with all this is Pratchett has written a novel of ordeal or a parody of a novel of Odeal. It's not a bit of build uncer men or it's a hybrid right. I think. I think the word is hybrid. I'm not. Yeah, I don't think purchase that down. I was like I'm going to write a building from on is like I'm going to play around with all these different things to get because potmonism or I think this reinforces for me the divide between it is deaths, build uncer men, more is just plugged into a hero's journey because, like we have the barbarian characters, like come on, the barbarian stuff, that they are there off to the side right we I think this is the only one where we have like a heroes journey as the main part discworld novel, or at least the early ones, because yet the first two are traveling our narratives. Then we have esques, is more of a builduncer men, and then here we have the adventure novel of ordeal. But we still have a couple of categories. We have the master of two worlds, which may mean achieving a balance between the material and spiritual, so that the hero has become comfortable and competent in both of the inner and out of worlds. Campbell arguing that freedom to pass back and forth across the world, division from the perspective of apparitions of time to that of the cause of deep and black, is the talent of the master the individual, through prolong psychological discipline, gives up completely all attachment to his personal limitations, Adeo syncresies, hopes and fears, and no longer resist the self annihilation that is a prerequisite to the rebirth, the realization of truth, and so becomes right at last for the great at one moment learn how to edit. Campbell. Yeah, he's not translated from French. She's got no excuse. His personal ambitions have been totally dissolved and he no longer tries to live that willingly relaxes to whatever may come to pass in him. This is more. At the end of his confrontation with death, roat is the acceptance of firepower, and finally we have the freedom to live. And in this step, mastery leads to freedom from the fear of death, which in turn is the freedom to live. Sound like a summary of a book that perhaps the heroes the champion of things becoming, not of things become. He does not mistake apparent change, limit changelessness in time for the permanence of being. Thus the next moment is permitted to come to pass, and that's me. It's pretty definitive refutation of the idea that only a buildings around could bring in a new epoch. Both Campbell's journey and Buckton's builduns are in. They don't work, they're not absolutely there. To wishywashy, they don't apply. But I think having gone through that, you can apply much more of the heroes journey to more than the buildings are and stuff. A point I'm trying to make is that more is still at its core a parody of fantasy and hasn't transcended into this buildungs are ment thing, and it's interesting to me that Butler writes this buildungsw remember analysis makes some interesting insight, but that seems to be the beginning and the end of where the scholarship on more NS someone goes. Yet so buildings from and Butler said so back in the S. and this idea of it being a parody or a subversion of the novel of ordeal or that there's this divide between death and mort's journey just isn't really discussed, because the whole time you've been talking about this and I'm like yeah, that is in the souls just a rewriting of like fantasy. That's what we're doing right. Why all this stuff? So I'm glad to hear you say. My whole point is that it's not so. Yeah, that is our elongated analysis of more. I promise Rouperman will be shorter. He believes it, but he lies. Will See. We're also getting back in the swing of it after a big break. Hopefully we can. We can get back on this because we reprimands a shorter one. I think it's only two hundred and something pages. So do you reckon we can. We can get that done. All out of to the list because yes, at the end of of I'm what I noticed. That's interesting, that more offers to take over for death if he ever wants a holiday. Just what happens in Rouperman, which you know. So where is more in Reuperman? That is a question that we will have to respond next episode. Thank you for going on that journey with me, Alice. Have we ill shoed in a new epoch? I'm still in the Valley...

...of the whale. I don't know about the rest of having a good time in here. I'm looking for one of these temptresses by and we're clear fucked it, and right. Well, like fucked him. Wow,.

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