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6 – Maskerade

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We discuss Maskerade, exploring the origins triple goddess, the many guises of The Phantom of the Opera,distinctions between high and low culture, the gentrification of opera, masks, physical appearances, the archetype of the Gothic Villain and its theatrical transformation into a Romantic Hero of Sensibility and more!

Episode Transcripts and Bibliographies: https://monash.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/

Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

A Doctor Prometheus podcast.

Before the episode starts, I just want to take another moment to thank our new Patreon, Gabriel, thanks for your support, and also our earlier patreon Dan, who sent us a very nice and encouraging email this week. Much appreciated. If you two would like to help support unseen academicals and Alis and myself, as well as getting bonus episodes like the recent one we did on Neil gaiman's midsuven night stream and the Sandman series, as well as all episodes in advance. We're running a bit behind schedule the moment, but the first of the COPPA Jugglum ones, which are probably going to be two parts, should be up there by the end of the month. Then you get it first by signing up at Patreoncom Dr Prometheus pod. Thanks again. Guys's world. Let's do as world podcast analysis. Yeah, all right, so I'm Josh and I'm Alice and we are the unseen academical. Still we continue to be both unseen and academical, and today we are looking at the eighteen discworld book and the five which is novel masquerade. We're in granny weather acts and nanny I'd ventured to the big city of Uncle More Hawk to recruit the multifaceted singing which agnes knit into their coven following mcgrat's departure, and find themselves getting caught up in a series of ghostly crimes and the melodramatic, nonsensical world of opera. Have I been waiting three weeks to do that? Oh, yeah, yeah, and we're going to use the book to explore ideas of the triple goddess, the fan of the opera, in its many guys, has distinctions Twain High and low, culture, masks and physical appearances, as well as the archetype of the gothic villain and it's theatrical transformation into a romantic hero of sensibility. But First Alice, in honor of the Rupole's drag race. Recap podcast. Could you please name some combination of things you like and things you did not like? You just got rid of the roles because I can't follow them. You've proved yourself in tapering. I have a feeling I'm not going to get two things you liked. To know, I work really hard on this over the rules this time. I really yeah, okay, two things I liked. I enjoyed Greebo particularly I'm we'll talk about this later, because there's the scene where it's like he can't just be Griebo, which I've always said was a damn silly name for a cat. Well, he looks aristocratic, nanny began. He looks like a beautiful, brainless bully. Grannie corrected her aristocratic, repeated nanny, and then she goes same thing. Right. This is the Byronic hero in a nutshell, and it was about a cat. So it was like all my favorite things. Right. I do have this later, but you do recall when I asked you, in which is abroad, whether you thought Grieber was Byronic, and you said No. When I was about Rache is very trying to like do stuff with it here and like Oh, they're returning to it and that that's funny. So they're engaging with that debate. One thing you liked was greeber and you had a second when you're hi, I do. It's not. It's not big one. I just really loved. I sat there and laughed and laughed. When the I think it's an ogre. It's like what's your what's your role here? And it's ED eater and it's like either he's an editor, is a headater and I just still fun funny. I'll no, head hitter. Yeah, head hitter. Sorry, that's it. Yeah, yeah, the head hitter. He's the he's the troll. WHO's the bodyguard? It wrong. That's it, pretty press yeah, it was funny cover. I'm drum yes, he's not bad. The trolls are good. I also enjoyed like there was a chorus of groans from the chorus. I enjoyed those aspects, but like, that's nothing to write home about. What didn't I like you ask? Yes, hang on, I also liked nanny and their tripp to ank more pork, and I think otherwise I didn't right, because, yes, I the reason I'm being sorry, apprehendious is the the text message you sent me last night was I hate this book very much. I threw it down in disgusted. Well, it's one. That's what I know I've read a bad book when I have to throw it across the room when I'm done, and when it's on the tablet as well, it's less. Oh yeah, it's satisfying. HMM. All right, so, okay, let's go give you the itinery. What didn't you like about masquerade are you just blanketing everything else or so boring, like just insanely boring nothing. I thought that was no more interesting in terms of reading it. I think like thinking about it after and putting the notes together and the things that practice trying to do with it. Okay, that makes it interesting, but the book itself wasn't interesting or engaging to read that they weren't doing anything particularly new with the characters. Maybe a little bit with nanny, but even then it was the old stuff again. I was bored the whole time. All right, well, I'll give my my true things and and I think I have a couple of things I don't like as well. Side broken the rules, and I think we have both similar and different takes on this book. I think because I also don't think this is a great book, but I think baby, for for similar but different reasons. We'll get into this. This will make more sense once I explain myself. So the things I like. The first thing I like is Agnes. I like Agnes. I think she's a good character. I wish she was developed more, both here and in other books. But I think as far as, like you were saying, you wanted to see the witches from Lords and ladies, that were a sparring to be which is actually taken under the wing. That's sort of what we get here. Yeah,...

I think I agree with you. It's just not developed as it yeah, I think she is the basis of a good character. I think she's a very interesting character that doesn't get used very well. So I like I like her as a person less than as a character, if that makes sense. I like you as a person, but not as that. Yep. The other thing I like is are all the puns. Yeah, I think as much as this is a weaker discoorb book, I think it's pretty funny. The jokes in it a funny and that's sort of the difference between like. One of my major complaints with this is it is a rehash of weird sisters, both in what it's doing and a lot of the scenes. A lot of the jokes will get into this. I've been internally debating which one of these I like more, weird sisters or weird sisters masquerade, because I think weird sisters like is ambitious in a way. This book's not like Weird Sisters is commenting about how Shakespeare changed culture like that, whereas this is just like it is an opera, silly. So that's where I think we're. So I'm similar with you. I don't think this is doing anything new. I think it's rehashing alt we're we're different, though, is I find this quite a light, not compelling, but pleasant read. I was never bored. I've never done because actually I have read this book since we started this podcast. I've read this book three to four times because, well, because I read it like just to begin with when I was going through them all and for a prevaring it put together. Then I went and read between reading this book the first time and when we had to prepare this episode, I went and read the entire discworld series, Jesus Christ, well, through audio books, but you know, I went through all of those books and then went shit, I have to go back to masquerade, which was forty books ago. So I had to reread it then and where? And when I say every read, like I put them on at night when I'm trying to go to sleep and listen to the audiobook and right. So it's not in terms of time, Mashine, but I've been through the story twice and then I think just even between then when I started putting the episode together. It had been a while and I'd gone down this rabbit hole with draculas and vampires and stuff for carpet juggulum and and I was like I should probably revisit masquerade against I started putting out in again when I was gone to sleep and I've drifted off in and out of it at various places. So that's why I say three, two, four. But the entire time I've been happy to go with it. It's not like I found which is abroad. I know which is abroad. Weird sisters. Every time I've read it a real slog like reading it is dull. I have to push myself through it. Yeah, I'm happy to go through the story. It's fun, it's entertaining. I find it's pace pretty well. I think Pratchett's writing is a lot stronger than in weird sisters, even if it's less ambitious. And, as we said, I think it's quite funny, whereas we had to hold the whole First Section of our weird sister's episode was about we don't think this book's money, and here's a breakdown of why. Yeah, we're both saying there's jokes in this. So I think it's a lighter, easier, more compelling read, but then at the end I just go well, I didn't get anything out of that. Yeah, I see what you mean. I think it was just kind of like story with funny jokes in it and the story just wasn't taking me anywhere. The start was compelling when there was still in long craw and then the journey and the start of Agnes at the opera, I was with it and then just lost me. I mean, obviously you've had a different experience. For me it works. Is just a basic mystery thing. It's like a fun mystery romp. Maybe I just like didn't have the time, like my brain was like, what are we doing? We have to other things to do. Come on, and I'm not. I'm not going to back for this book. I do. It didn't bog me down the way weird sisters has every time. Now I just going to say for the record this book has bogged me down. Yeah, yeah, before I would go to go to read it and not want to read it and then couldn't read anything else out of guilt. So I've just not read anything from at those are the worst books I'm so I'm very sorry to inflict that upon your especially after you know how much we were into lords of ladies. Having, as I said, gone through the whole discworld series, what I've become aware of is I think there's like three of the witch's books would be my top ten. DISCRIBE douvels, okay, right, equal rights, which is abroad, Lords and ladies. Three. Yet top ten to fifteen. I do have a list, but it's by far the most uneven of the series has right, it goes up and down and up and down. Obviously, other people critics and things thinks. Think Weird sisters is great as well and, as we'll see, there's people who like this book and think carp a juggles one of the best as well. So it's opinions on it a very varied. Whereas, having gone through the other ones, all the death books are great, all the watch books are pretty great, with a few exceptions. All the wizard books are pretty bad, but they're also very small as it's sort of a consistent quality, whereas I farm with the witch is one that's up and down and up and down. Like Lords and ladies is one of the best, this is one of the worst. Papa juggles may be in the middle somewhere. I don't know. We'll see. But I have a strange relationship with masquerade itself because this is actually the book that got me back into Terry Pratchett. Okay, well, when I was working like straight out of school or a bit after school, I I went and did like six months of a graphic design course and decided that was not for me and dropped out and got a job working as a in a plastics recycling factory where I was just stacking bags of like powdered plastic, like I used to, eight tons a day. I've just lifting these bags of plastics. I was just do a manual labor at this at this factory, and I started listening to audio books while I was doing it, and that's eventually where I was like after a year that, I was like, I'm sick of lifting heavy things. I like listening to the books. I'm going to go do a literature degree. But in there I was like, oh, those discul books,...

I like them. And then I discovered there was actually I thought I'd read the mold, but there was a handful in the middle like from about it's about fifteen to twenty or like five books in the series that I hadn't read. So I found out all those these books I haven't read from the series, with masquerade and Couppo jungle and being two of them, and I listened to them and I was like, Oh, this is fun, so I've got me back into it. That's when I wasn't reading anything or was reading other things, whereas now I'm reading everything and all the discuab books. This is definitely a weaker entry because, yeah, even I've said, I've gone through it three or four times just now, even those experiences have been up and down. Like I was really excited to come back to this book having those fond memories of it the first time, and I read and when this is trash, this is garbage, there's nothing to it, and then when I came back to it the second time, I'm like, it's all right, it's not as bad as I thought it was. It's not great, but it's fine, it's pretty fun. And then, like the last couple of times, I've been like, Oh, there's bits I like, there's bits of dirt. So I really feel, not really necessarily conflicted, just all over the place with this book and I'd say that's a good summary of the book itself. All over the place, right. I'm so, that's true. Things I liked, I know because I still haven't finished the two things I like because I wanted to. I wrote down a lot of the jokes that I thought were pretty just to stablished that this is a funny book for all its working so the best jokes I wrote down where when they go to meet Mr Goatburger and grandy's told he's in a meeting and she says how long is this meeting going to be, and they say he's an elongated meter. That's all right on. I saw coming of like, are they got to do it? Yeah, he said elongated Meta. Brilliant. They when doctor undershaft gets hanged, they say he was always very highly strong. There's maybe my favorite joke in the whole book is just calling the play miserable, as I just I love that. Yeah, that one these very low brow jokes, as we've established. I mean too, I like that they say the Chandelier is going to make a crash endo. I like that there's the reference to he's got no nose and agnus ghost ask how does he smell? That's the joke that kills everyone in Monty Python. Yeah, so there's lots of these jokes and there'll be other ones that come up as we go through, but constant wordplay and uns that I was really enjoying. It feels like Terry Pratchett had all of these jokes about the theater and the opera that he just was writing down in a book for years and nowhere to put them and it goes. You know what I'm going to do it. In an interview with science fiction weekly from the year two thousand, project reveals that he have fan who worked for the Royal Opera House in London who smuggled him behind the scenes for an hour where he discovered what an insane world opera is, and from there the plot of mass grade unrolled in front of him. Called it. He had been saving up for years. I think he got stuck into see an opera and was like this is why little down, like it was a night's worth anything. As for what I don't like, though, are the fat jokes. That's fair. The constant, constant put downs of Agnes and reminding you that she's large and her whole character, her whole function, is defined by that. She's meant to be unattractive it, and we've discussed on this podcast like this is a thing with Pratchett. There's the cooking lords and ladies. There's what's her name in unseen academicals, the the kitchen lady who's the main character, but it's always reminded our but she's fat though she's not pretty like Juliet. This is a constant thing with him and here it's just like it's greating. It's so much of it. Anytime Agnes has mentioned there as a comment about how she's overweight. And even if you want to dismiss it as it's just a joke or it was of the time or whatever, it's so much. It is a lot. Yeah, so that really bothered me. I didn't like the House on fire thing. Could have done without that, hmm. Or could have done with it once at the start and once at the end to have what's his name say I'd take the fire out. But yeah, just getting that repeated all the time. Like grandy weather backs, is meant to be the smartest, most capable person the whole book. She's asking people this weird pop side question all the time. It's like, what are you doing. Yeah, I found that very annoying. And my last thing that I really didn't like about this book. No, Magret. Yeah, no, Magret missed her. No good. Yeah, I'm gonna add I also didn't like that nanny was being forced to spend all the money. That just pissed me off. I don't know why the fat jokes also, but Goddamn, leave nanny alone. She had that. Probably maybe we'll see. So, yes, we have very mixed opinions about this, and so do the critics, it seems so. In his pocket guy and drew and but like, gives masquerade a four out of five, proclaiming not project back to form after a bit of a Rut. We've said before how our opinions don't necessarily line up with Bo but was rating in the pocket guide right, he was very into link. You gave weird sisters a five out of five and said that was and ladies is one of the weaker novels. Yeah, so he says back to form out of a bit of a Rut, which, yes, if you like this book, I can saw to see that the two preceding novels being soul music and interesting times. Interesting Times is terrible that's one of the five books that I think are worse than masquerade. Soul music, though, I had memories of being not very strong like when I saw that. I when I am maybe this is a return to form just then. Need it's a better, moreble constructed, fun book, but haven't gone through the mall. Soul music was way better than I remembered, so I don't know if I buy that. But also notes quite how often reasonably recent discworld novels are police procedurals on some level. During this time. This is two novels after the Second Watch book, minute arms, and just before feed of clay, and the watch novels end up being the longest sub series the disco ones. I think there's nine of them.

So he really gets into them in the later part of the series. And this is sort of a police procedural in disguise, right. It's a watch level without the watch. Yeah, Sorr, he's just noticing. Yeah, Pratchett's turn into the mystery and procedure journal there. Conversely, though, so no times reviewer John melmouth knows helasure to the wonder if I come on, John. That's he wrote a mixed review, saying masquerade is not Pratchett's most considerable work by a considerable way, while omitting that the disc used to snap, crackle and pop with magic. You could throw a stick without hitting some miracle or wonder or another, but now we're reduced to special effects that cost literally pounds. Well, I think there's something through that. I mean project does get away from the actual magic as the series goes on, but, as we'll discuss, I think there's actually something to this. The projets done deliberately in not having magic feature in this book. There's all the stuff with the tea leaves and like, Oh, she could tell the future and it was going to be she was having a nice beer. Like it's kind of there, but it's showing how it's. Yeah, I don't know, we'll get to it. Something I found frustrating or unsatisfying about masquerade is that there's no ghosts or magic or fantasy stuff going on right. I do think this is a missed opportunity. Like I said, I want to protect to do more with the ghost stuff in weird sisters and here's a book tentatively about ghosts but there are no action, which is like he's playing on the superstition thing. Right. That's another connection to the Shakespeare stuff, is he's playing on the superstitions of the theater and the family of her himself. But I think there's a missed opportunity here for like a haunted house style narrative, mm, because the point of discord is like the belief contributes to what's in the world. Right, if you got all this concentration of people in the Opera House believing in all these stew positions and believing that it's haunted to actually materialize those things, and you've got these references to like the show must go on, I'm like, why isn't there an spirit of opera forcing them to finish the show that they have to break free from or something? And there's precedent for this in discworld, because that's what soul music and moving pictures are about. Okay, moving pictures about is about a lovecraftian spirit of cinema who forces everyone to act like they're in Hollywood, and soul music is about the spirit of rock and roll that won't let its person. It's possessed like Diet. So this is something practice done before and I don't want him just to rehash it, but why does that happen there and then here. It's like, I know, your superstitions aren't real. You're all being silly, let's be said. So maybe that's the point, like in this case it's not and they all think it is. What that is the point, but it doesn't make sense. Like why? Why is the Opera House not work on those that logic? Yeah, you're right, it's funny but also bad. That's how one said that. Sorry, it's funny, but it's also kind of bad. Take melmouth continues. Yeah, he did, that rittery had become a cross between Midwi for a housewifery and homeopathy, and which is precede by head Ology, rather than turning the laws of nature upside down. That was always the case, right. This is they're sort of missing the point, because he says, if they go on at this rate, they will soon be indistinguishable from other elderly ladies who are pretty naturally good at deciding what makes people two. But that's the point from the start. and Go back and listen to an other episode. That's been the whole point. Do you want to explain who melmoth is, just in case people don't understand how funny we are? Well, it'll come up later when we talk about the gothic novel, but it's sort of towards the end of the Romanticization of Gothic novel into the Gothic revivals. He wanders forever. He's kind of like the wandering Jew. It's a book. It's a book, sorry for that, significant as a book code Malmoth, the Wanderer. Alice has read it. I have it so long there. As much as we've complained about the academic neglective of some of the other books in the witches series, this one doesn't even get a google scholar entry and I don't know why that is. They are has things that have been written about it, so maybe that's just something in the algorithm somewhere. But yes, there's no record there. But there are lots of references to this, probably more than something like equal rights or even lords of ladies maybe, except all of them are just people mentioning when they list off the books in the witches series and they heard the projects witcher series made up a bird at and masquerade and then they put it in the bibliography but don't actually site. I'll comment it. So many references and articles that I went through and research for this o that and nothing else. HMM. And the ones that are about it all just sort of rehash the same thing, that it's about identity and masks, and so they really isn't like a wide breadth or deep engagement with this book at all, which may be because it's a bad one. Nodding. I was really struggling to find something to say about this book because it's not really about anything and everything it's trying to do like it's been done in weird sisters. Hmmm, it's difficult. I do think I've may be stumbled across a couple of things, but I was saying the lead up to this episode to you like I'm having a make up things to say about masquerade just to fill out the schedule. Not Not lies or non factual things, just I'm having an ad in like we're about to do a whole section about the history of the triple goddess, which I've been holding off putting in the other outlines because they were too long, and then here I needed to Padd it it out. So this whole history of witchcrafted to this episode just because there's not much going on. Yeah, yeah, nor have I seen it mentioned anywhere and any of the fan of the opera scholarship that I've been through, including and seehalls two thousand nine book Phantom Variation, which...

...analyzes adaptations of fandom of the opera from nine and twenty five to the present. Well, it missed one. Well, yeah, so it also includes books like Popular Thrill author of Frederic foresy one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine novel, the Phantom of Manhattan, the Nineteen ninet four goosebumps book fandom of the Auditorium and the two thousand and seven erotic novel unmasked by Collect Gail. So this book's like not above you know, popular cultural adaptations, but is missing what I assumed of the time. Like this is midnight, this is like peak discord. Popularity just isn't even bothering. Mentioning of this happened. Very strange, I thought. Yes, so we are going to do a dive into the history of the triple goddess, which is the premise for this novel, and why it essentially takes faith. So, yes, despite earlier declaring that the natural size of a coven is one and that which is only get together when they can't avoid it, in which is abroad. Mass grade begins with nanny's realization that mcgrant garlic, where does a sponge, though she was half the time, had been dead right about one thing. Three was a natural number for witches and that it was an old superstition, older than books, older than writing, and beliefs like that. We're heavyweight. It's on the rubber sheet of human experience, tending to pull people into their orbits. This is a rehash of that water running down the mountain metaphor m but it's project and Simpson observed in the foclore of discworld. The idea of the triple goddess dates back almost as far as human civilization itself, noting that the ancient Greeks and Romans spoke of three fates. We held in their hands the threat of each person's life. Had cloth or who spun it on her distaff, La Cherise, who measured it? And in due time, the dreaded a chop us. She can't be turned aside. Who snipped it with the sheers of death? The one that is turned away has all this significance and paintings, because they always still paint her. So a titties, a show which is interesting than us, but it's interesting, like the reason she's kind of facing away from you is that, because of the way fate works, you can't always see it all, you know. Oh Yeah, side Boob, that's all you can see of the future. Yeah, and we discussed in the weird sist episode that the Norse also believed in the three norms. I've got us as of destiny, past, present, future. That's what rare. I guess she get the three from, as project and Simpson explain. However, the specific notion of the maiden, mother and Crow is only just over a hundred years old. The fates, the norms and other female trios in old mythologies, including Shakespeare's weird sisters, all traditionally being represented as the same age. Okay, they credit cambridge scholar Jane Allen Harrison with first sorting these guidesses into three categories. In one thousand nine hundred and three. will not three categories through different age groups in one thousand nine hundred and eighty three being the maiden, the mother and a third one she did not name. So when Pratchett's saying there's the maiden, the mother and the other one, he's not just being coy. He's referencing the origin of this idea cool these categories. We're not without president, being based upon a patriarchal Indo European traditions that viewed sex as a process for energy to be transferred from women to men. So, as Gregory L Dexter explains in his one thousand nine hundred and ninety book, whence the goddess or whence the goddesses? Dexter explains the three stages, saying that in the first stage she was a virgin and her powers were in the process of being stored. Right, you're untapped energy, potential, energy. Similarly, in the alphabet of Ben Serah that we talked about with regard to Lilith, in the which is a broad episode, the eponymous Prophet Declares Moist and sweet and invigorating are the juices of a young woman, but those of an old woman are bitter as as goal. They sap your potency like a well whose waters were drawn out by the wind. What else do men need from us? You want out energy to let me have something hmm, deeply disturbing and I guess technically, all the people in the baths in the matrix that have been used as batteries are virgins because of anue about is. It can be dudes can be virgins, but I guess here we're off a sure lady virgins, we're much more valuable. Yeah, you're right. Why aren't they? The men already full of energy themselves. Good Point, Alice. Thank you. You've got the energy to expend, if you get my meaning. Yes, I also feel like someone would have pointed that out at some point. They were like now it's like girls are well, was part of, you know, the myth making that presses women, fucking man. Yeah, so dexter explains the three stage. Are saying that in the first stage, the female guess was a virgin and her powers were in the process of being stored. In the second epoch, she was said to have released her stored power, she was fertile and she provided energy to males. Her most common role in this epoch was that of a matron, a housewife. Right. Dexter notes that in a balanced, equalitarian society, one might expect that the old woman, full of wisdom and experience would be highly valued. In Patriarchal, Indo European societies in which women had little status, however, the old woman, the crone, was least respected. When a woman had run down her battery, so to speak, and thus no longer had enough energy to give to others, she then became the antithesis of the young virgin who stored energy or of the matron who transmitted it. I mean this is still the case, like people will tweet, like emptier crtains at older women when they're like talking about stuff on twitter and saying your opinion is invalid because you have no eggs. But I did, I did share the that tweet of the guy saying Taylor Swift is about thirty and she's used...

...ninety seven percent of her eggs. I then I went and googled it because I got all scared. No, it's not looking good. Okay, I'm the one who just turned thirty one. You're fine. So in that finally park of old age, a female figure was viewed in one of two ways. She could be a nurturing grandmother, right, a wise old woman. But often, however, instead of been venerated for her wealth of knowledge, she was made an object of fear or division. The counterpoint to the wise old woman was the fearsome which the ladder of whom was considered a dissipator of energy and as such, was feared. Rather, we've talked about the prejudices against all women in yeah, these episodes, whether a virgin or a matron. This is there the crone, whether they've had kids or they're still virgins. They were depicted as barren creatures who were said to use the energy of others to supplant their own wasted forces. So whereas the young virgin represented potential energy, the age virgion represent to the sterility, the barrenness of a woman who has never borne children and who can never change her barren state and will therefore never bear sons for the patriarchy. Son, Johnny. There's something in this, though, as we'll talk about next episode. I did think about cutting this trouble God ass part, making it like combining it with the first part of carpet juggling, because the copy druggle does deal with the triple godesss thing as well, essentially the premises. What happens when gratty weather wax goes away? How did the power hierarchy shift among the witches? So we will talk about more of that there, but in that book it is implied that one of the reasons that granny weather wax is so powerful is that she is a virgin crone, so she is actually still full of energy and has never relinquished that. I do think that's tied up with some prejudices about the purity of, Yep, right, not having sex, but we will talk more about that when we get to CARPA juggle. Yeah, so we are going to go into more of this in Carba Jogra from now, I think, given that this is the the premise of masquerade, it's when I go through each of the stages and talk about how they they apply to what's going on here. So we're going to go in reverse order, I think, because the crone is the one that is most relevant to Carpa Juggle and the Virgin is the one that's most relevant here in the cruiting of Agnes. I think so, as Pruschet Sinson explained, the Folko of discworld, the other one was first, or at least most influentially defined as the crone by the English occultist Alice to Crowley, who identified her with the Greek Nature Goddess Hecatey, writing in he is nineteen, twenty one novel. Moonchild. Heckorate is the Corone, a woman passed all hope of Motherhood, her soul black with envy and hatred of happy immortals, a thing altogether of how barren, hideous and malicious, the queen of death and evil witchcraft. But conversely, Crowley declared the visional Artemis Unassailable, fine and radiant, while the sublime persephone represented the woman in the fullness of life, for whose sake demeter cursed the fields that they brought forth no more corn until had he's consented to restore her to Earth for half the year. Is identified the crime with Heckaty, but also with demeter, who we've talked about before. Is the winter coming through? When Agus destroying per seventy bring spring? Yeah, so there's something going on with the seasons there. Now you've mentioned the seventy myth a bunch, though. I also want to take a second to point out here that Moonchild, it's the first song on iron maidens seventh son of a seventh son album, which was based on Austin Scott Card seventh son of the seventh son. Bringing it back around, it's all into a connected for the myth offs of iron maiden, whose new album is a fucking garbage fire. Ah, yes, so that's that's where the idea of the the actual label, the crone Crumbson Crowley and his ideas were then perpetrated by the English poet Robert Graves. You Know Robert Graves much enough enough. You know, I know of Robert Graves. But in his one thousand nine hundred and forty eight investigation, the white goddess, which suggests a music like mythology surrounding a what got us a birth, love and death which project sided on a number of occasions. So this is where he's sort of pulling it from our graves declares Hecty, searcy, Hannah and Persefni, all death aspects of the triple Marion Goddess, who were much worshiped by witches. Well, does I'm not really sure. Okay, I mean I guess they. They're all the chrome saying that that heckatycause Secie, yeah, and Heckatey at the which gods? I'm surprised it's Hee persephony thrown in there. Yeah, she's the Virgin Boston r birth God. Yeah, what? Maybe maybe graves doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe I this book's very straight. I mean I called it an investigation because I've got no idea what to call it, because it's sort of like it's a series of essays he's written trying to like get to the bottom of this triple goddess myth. But it's not like him doing actual research, it's just here meditating on it and be like I will get to the truth through poetry. So He's essentially making it up. Yes, what I gather. Yeah, but this is also through Crowley and grace. Here we're having to I guess Crowley is not really an establishment figure, but upper class men come in and, unsurprised, collect and promote this female goddess figure. So, but I also think that's interesting in that this idea that is then reappropriated into like new age wicker stuff, the return to the nature got us in everything, essentially has its roots in like a a fantasy novel by uster Crowley. Yeah, so it's another example of like we talked last episode of the we were talking about the claims of Elizabeth the first to Jesus, and they're similar Caro Warrior creans and how all religions made up. And it's all based on these stories. Here we have another example of what is a credible for a given value, of...

...credible religious or spiritual movement in in Wicker, stuff that's essentially based on like this guy coming in and writing a fantasy novel about all the stuff, you know, things like scientology, as another example of like modern religious movements being born out of fantasy. Like we're sort of doing that art imitating life. And yes, so the crown is kind of prejudiced and and Grannie denies and Avoids Association with it, right, she doesn't want to be labeled a crowne, which is a nod to it not having a name, but also the prejudiced yeah, things against it. She doesn't want to come the cackling crown like Black Alice, but she is. Yeah, so will revisit the Rome more next episode. The mother role in Pratchett's cover is, of course, occupied by Nanny Ogg. Yeah, ultimate mother, although this is I don't know if we have much to say about this one. That's sort of the least developed aspect of the triad. But as lorrain Anderson writes in her two thousand and six Masters thesis, which which is which the mother role is naturally a sexual being. Yet although nanny exude sexuality, in one sense it is a safe sexuality and that is essentially spent. She hints out and talks about her numerous liaisons, yet she is never sexually active. In the novel their children's books, the closest we get is the attraction of her to the unusual Dwarf Kiamo Qussen under the World Second Greatest Lover Your favorites, and she argues that nanny therefore is also sexless, although with a saucy flavor, project seeming to have created a coven out of a spinster and over the hill Harlott and a virgin. Arguing that Prochett therefore appears to reinforce rather than rail against the no sex please, where British cultural milieu in if in which he lives and writes? Not really sure about that. This is a master's thesis, Hmm. Think Anderson's being a bit icon of classic here, not giving Pratchett as much credit. I think she's really taken that. I'm going to argue this is a a sexist thing, but she does like doesn't any have sex? Well, I think the point is even her talking about it and making sexy jokes and saying sexy things. It's a children's book. They can't have her having like racy Doggie style. You know, I don't know if you want sex scenes, but it's like you could have something where, you know, they go to our cottage and there's a man leaving or something. There's none of that. It's all her talking of past ex compared. So I reckon. Also, there's some bits where she's like I'm back at my college and no, I'm will disturb me, and I'm like, Oh yeah, what's you gonna do now, nanny? I think there's a bit of that in there, because I think she is a grandmother rather than a mother. Yeah, but in terms of the energy cycle thing, like she is really a crown in the crowne stage of life rather than a fertile mother. Yeah, there's something to this criticism that perhaps it's not really engaging with the sexuality of these women, because even mcgrat, who gets pregnant, doesn't know how sex works and like is depicted as, I'm sexy. But I do think nanny is a more subversive figure than Anderson's giving her credit for because, yeah, there's something just genuinely subversive about making the old prismonoples a woman the the sex spot. Yeah, and I think she banged Cassananda. I absolutely agree. Nanny is getting it. Yeah. So we've got a pretty stable order of the maiden, mother and crown through the first couple of which is books, but at the end of Lords and ladies, so even before we get to mcgrant leaving the Coven, there is a disruption of this order with all three of the witches being paired up right, which we talked about this in the other episodes. But you got magrats with barns. N He's be Casan under grant. It's with red cully. However, as Butler notes, by this book, Cassan under is now nowhere to be seeing a bridd color. Cali has appeared in a couple of books without mentioning his past, since norders granny find the time to seek him out in the Unseen University while visiting the Opera House. She's busy. Well, she actually does go and visit him and they reunite in the shepherd's crown. The final discworld book does acknowledge this and they'd say we were busy, but Butler does have a coin that I think the upper house is established as across the road from the university or something. So it's like she probably could have been like, Hey, by the way, I'll give a guest lecture on feminism or whatever I'm meant to be doing. Hey, yeah, she's meant to be working in the publishing subplot. She could have been like, I'm going for one of my women studies classes. I just like that. You know she's busy. She had stuff on. But yeah, the point there where they'd all become mothers or in that paired coupled zone, and then just immediately that's ditch. We got a hard reset to the made mother Crown Order. At the style of this book, I thought was interesting. Yeah, yeah, but lass. The implication there is that, with all the best will in the world, whiching seems to be a single woman's game, nanny is presumably a widow or to verlsie several times over, and MC grant's dance with variants requires her to give up witchcraft entire and Perchett himself admits as much in he is one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine British folklore society lecture. Imaginary world's real stories, saying mcgrat has difficulty reconciling her dual roles and, although she argues that it is possible to combine motherhood and a career, also agrees that she has given up witchcraft after giving birth to her daughter in Carpe Juggle, and that, from Lords and ladies on, migrant generally acts as one of the witches, but seems to prefer avoiding the label, saying she never really intended to come back to it since she's now got other things to do. Maybe a bit of part time aroma therapy or something, but not serious, full time witching, which was some bullshit. It isn't, it isn't. I'm not this is this gets addressed in this is what we'll go into in the next book. But she did choose, I know, but I thought it'd be better if she stayed and was like the Queen and also a which it's a good mix. I agree. Publicity, you know, which is should get some good publicity,...

...and we do get a bit of a revisit of this in Compa Jugular man, the shepherd's crown. But yeah, it's never, never quite resolved, but it is done on it's Margret's term. She chooses motherhood and and also just being a queen. She's like, I'm going to run a kingdom, I don't have time to do this anymore, rather than them saying, well, now you've married this man, you can't be part of our cover. And I do think there's a different tape there. Yes, everyone can make their own decisions, unless you want to go be an opera singer and then you'll look down upon until you accept the natural order. As for the Virgin, there, which is the main point in this book, with the recruiting of Agnes, Anderson also criticizes pratchetts portrayal of the Virgin, saying that the two MANACA women, Margret and Agnes, can attract only a full or a vampire, which, yes, agness becomes the objective desire for a vampire in in CARPA juggle. I'm so she's saying the only witches that are attracted to men are attracted to a full and a monster, but the full is the king. Hmm, I think that was the point there. Yeah, agnes is vampire attracts is more complex, but we'll discuss that and fuck a stand sign I, while Agnes is actually it's so it's a subversion of it. She resists the vampire. The vampires like, Oh, you're hot. She's like, what am I mean to be impressed? Because you're a vampire. Yes, but also, I think the joke is that this vampire who's meant to be into buxing wench's finds his fact girl attractive. It's it's not great. Oh No, okay. Nevertheless, after being abandoned by mcgrant, granny and nanny consider agnes a more stable virgin prospect due to her supposed unattractiveness, which seems to derive exclusively from her weight, which is something, as we discussed, Pratchett has an I'm going problem with. As Anderson more strutely observes, agnes is selfdefinition as the virgin is defined by the male understanding of attractiveness. That includes the truth. That's that's like the quote that being fat is equated with not having sex. Saying that there's yeah, and then she quotes from masquerade saying Agnes's life unrolled in front of her. It didn't look as though it were going to have many high points, but it did hold years and years of being capable and having a lovely personality and almost certainly held chocolate rather than sex, and while Agnes was not in a position to make a direct comparison, and regardless of the fact that a bar of chocolate could be made to last all day, did not seem a very fair exchange. Sex can be made to last all day. I also can't imagine anyone who'd be attracted to a busty, talented young woman with a wonderful personality in great hair. That seems crazy. Yeah, yes, I think this is a pretty pretty close minded on Pratchett's part there all or on that notion of great hair. Anderson also points out that Agnes knit combines a first name that alludes to a Catholic sake. Well, allegedly grew hair down to her feet in order to cover her nakedness. So yes, in the Agnes is known for her volumeus and beautiful hair. I always wondered why we kept getting told Agnes has good here. And is this the reference here? Also Virgins? I think I meant to have good hair. Oh, is that a thing? Yeah, it's a spencer thing, but yeah, although Anderson then says that her last name is refers to a lousy pest that affects here in agnus knit. So here knit, or is maybe an illusion to knit with? I think she might be reaching here. MMM, agreed. Elsewhere, musquery project describes Agnes says bright and talented in many ways. Her voice, for one thing. That was her power finding its way out, and of course she has a wonderful personality. Noting that, there's not much chance of her being disqualified. So yes, there is this idea that nanny and granny one of the reasons they want her is she will never have sex. So she would never leave that to me. That's just really mean. Okay, yeah, it's not great, right. I think it was meant to be funny. We need to find a girl who can't ever have sex. Yeah, but also, like we just talked about nanny, nanny's also fat, right. She's a fat old woman who is the sex spot. Maybe that's how she got recruit I don't know. I don't know. And we're going there. You got macgrat, who's all thin and stuff, but is meant to be a wet hen, sort of described as way from is away hen, like a drip like her. She's well, she's a bit wet, like she's a bit soggy. She's a bit sappy, she's a bit damp, she's just a bit. Are you meeting wet people in Your Life? Like, I've not met anyone I could describe as soggy, but like, like her personality. She's a bit she's a bit dreary, I guess. Okay, the hand, I'm not really sure of her. She's plucky and dreary. I don't know. That's how what you want. My students and like how could we find this out? And they would say, search it up. What is a person if they are described as a wet hand? Here we go. First result refers to Pratchett. You what is a wet hand? You get from English language usage, English dot stack exchangecom on the first result, which looks like fancy Google answers. When questioned about the phrase terror, explained that it is perfectly good British slaying. A wet hand is a be draggled, sad and useless person. Probably not as useless as a big girl's blouse, though, and better off than a lame duck. Also, show me a picture of a wetand I mean that's that's a bit more great. Like that fits. Yeah. Similarly, in her analysis of the witches in the guilty of literature collection. Car and say a notes that the witch's craft in practice books is embedded within domesticity, with their cottages representing them as maiden, mother and crowne which might make Pratchett something of an essentialist, pointing out his frequent focus on their physical appearance. So it's just someone else noticing this trend there as well, though I wonder how much of that is like, because this is a book, right, it's the fantasy world. It's like the outward appearance representing the TROPE, like they're meant to be stereotypes. He's playing...

...with that. So, yeah, he has to start with the stereotyping order to subvert it, and then he subverts it, but then he puts it back out. Was So, yeah, I don't think they'd be too much, except one of the things I said, but I did like, was all the fat jokes and specifically the amount of them in this book. And, as Addison also observes, Pratchett seems to spend an inordinate amount of time reminding us that Agnes is overweight, which gets is something I took it should with as well. However, in her two thousand and eighteen book, Pratchett's women, which we talked about before in with regards to equal rights, tells Menian Wright at Tansey arena. Roberts says that, although a masquerade makes her cranky, that mcgrat's marriage has pushed her out of the narrative of the Lunkroa whiches, it's hard not to be delighted about the arrival of Agnes, who she calls one of Pratchett's most interesting and nuance portrayals of a younger female protagonist. And Roberts defends Pratchett's fat chamming, claiming that even when fat jokes are flying around, agnes herself is never treated like a joke, which she says, is an incredibly rare thing in fantasy fiction, where fat women are rarely seen unless they are villains, motherly matrons or jolly service industry professionals, which are all of Pratchett's other examples of unaway characters, and young fat women don't exist at all in fantasy novels. HMM, yeah, because an was a goness, overweight, even lords and ladies, which she described as it's she's big, because I was I was going to say she invented like for this was. But there's the time to the opera, rightch is, the Fat Lady you sings at the end of the book. I mean, maybe he's adopting that previously. HMM. Interesting. And while Robert States that, although she has a soft spot for the line about how the ballerinas are crazed with hunger, she is uncomfortable with the characterization of thing girls in masquerade, saying that it would be nice to have a book that deals positively with fat female characters, without judging and writing thin women as well. Nevertheless, Roberts concludes that she is impressed once again to see a story this complex about the iterations of women told by a male author, saying that Agnes might be the one who is blessed with a quote good personality, but of the to Christine is the only one who behaves like a nice person of course Christine can afford to be nice, because everything she ever once falls into her lap. See, nuance agnus is nice. Well, she is. She has Perdida. Her inner monolog are. Who does become an actual, fully fledged character in Cuppa Juggle Ab so we will revisit her in more detail there. But is like she's always judging people, right, she's always criticizing them. Hmmm, so she's meant she's playing the role of the outwardly nice person, but inside she is the Bitchy, thin woman, I guess. Yeah, okay, I don't know if I fully buy it. I think that's where she's criticizing the nuance. I think that sort of maybe over simplifying it. I don't know. Is it new wance? I think she's saying that Agnes and Christina both flawed. Yeah, Christine Sucks and Agnes is good, like they're both. But I mean I don't think Pratchett's doing a positive portrayal of Christie. Like we're meant to cyber agnes on this one, right? I think so. Yes, and just to drive it all home, when Agnes like becomes like her fully realized self at the end, when she returns a line credit, become a witch, gives up her dreams, the first thing Grannie does is compliment her on having loss of weight. So there is some implication there in that self realization is associated with weight and conventional attractiveness. Yeah, Oh, yeah, and this this ties in with another thing that I wasn't really happy about in masquerade is that it said in the book that granny at least respected anyone's right to recreate themselves. She does not. Yeah, I mean, isn't the whole point that she doesn't like mcgrat revetting herself? She doesn't like Agnes going off to be an opera thing. She has to become the witch that Grannie wants her to be. She doesn't want ask to do yeah, yeah, so I think that's that's some bullshit, not aligning with the the characterization of granny so far. She wants people to fit into how she wants them to be, although the the L space annotators in response to has quite say, as does Terry himself, respect people's rights to recreate themselves, pointing to an annotation of Protett's previous musical novel, Soul Music, which introduces debt's granddaughters Susan Stowe Hell it, whose name project explains came from a phenomenon he had noticed on signing to us, of girls somewhere between the age of ten and eighteen with names like Susan or Nicola metamorphizing into girls with names like Susie, Susie, Susie, susie. These are all spelt different way. You Got Susie, susie spelt like Susie and the Banshee, susie with a tea, Zuzi with the zed and Nikki, Nikki, Nikki and Nikki. This doesn't work in audio if we but different, different, various spellings of the name. And he says this is about the same time period as boys with names like Adrian and Robert Become boys with names like crash and frap. About Frab? Not metaphrab myself, nor I don't think I've met a crash. But this is fine by me, says Pratchett. I'm merely chronicle the observation. I've always had a soft spot for people who want to redesign their souls, which leads us to to Purdator, who we already sort of brought up. Yeah, so that's that's the introductory discussion of the triple Godd Ess are and we will revisit that and see how those tropes end up resolving in CARPA Jag of the next episode. But on the theme of, I guess, reinvention or identity and the Perdida specifically, we are going to talk about the Phantom of the opera, which that's great as a parody of in case you went away. But there's a number of other influences go way on in. There's some one of them is singing in the rain. Have you seen this...

...else? Are you aware of the plot of singing in the rain? They're singing in the rain right, that's what I thought as well when I watched this film this afternoon while I was putting the the final touches on this outline. Singing know R, it's pretty good, it's pretty funny. It's a very campy, but it is about the invention of films with sound. Okay, and the the I'll show you a scene. Okay, it's also it's singing in the rain rather than singing. Its official title is singing with an Apostrophe, which I thought was pretty offside free classic s yeah, sir, the premise of the film is, yes, someone invents the technology too able to add add sound to films and it's about how the studio executives and actors and ever everyone react to that. All right, and I'll get to its significance in connection the Maskar in a second, but I should have watch this section from early in the film. So there's a beautiful of people. They have just watched a silent film they all enjoyed, and the stars of the film are going to come out and make a presentation at the end. Yes, so the film they've just watches saw this is about twelve minutes into the film for people playing along at Home Ready, gentle n thank you, thank you. Thank you Pretty Darn Brill at your response to the Royal Rascal. We had fun making it and we hope you had fun seeing it tonight. Acts are much good at speaking in public, so we're just act Dada. Thanks God, diggity kids to smash it on leaving you work gorgeous. Yeah, Lenny, look pretty good for girls. What's the big idea? Can you get avoided edgeway? After all them? My public to the Publicity Department, Rod here, thought it would be much better if dawn made all the speeches for the team. Why? Lena? You're a beautiful woman. Audiences think you've got a voice to match. The studios got to keep those stars from looking ridiculous at any cost. No one's got that much money. What's wrong with the way I talk? What's the big idea? Am I dumb? This something? So that is the big reveal of the premise of the film is what happens when you're a movie star with a shitty voice and suddenly you have to speak on screen. It is funny because now we're podcasting at his entire line on our voices gone the other way. Conveniently, though, we are both dropped dead, gorgeous we are in very sixy. Yeah, so this is in terms of masquerade. This movie. Then the premise is that they find another girl who has a nice voice who dubs all our lives over the film. Right, so masquerade as a parody and that she is Christine. I thought they would just being dicks to agnes, but it's both. So it's about the the changing of the Guard in stars and things. But then, like masquerades are reverse thing where they're trying. It's like with opera. You normally have the the the fat lady who isn't conventionally attractive singing, and they're trying to bring in ner now we need need attractive starlets to be in these films. Well, I've seen film to them alluding to like musicals in the real world. So sort of the reverse of singing in the raid, as we only just mentioned. This is a masquerade as a parody of the fan of the opera, and I think one of its witnesses is a incredibly straight parody of venom of the opera, even more so than weird sisters is of masquerade. Like it. The plot beats a pretty one from one with the fan of the opera. But there are a lot of these other illusions like that going on, because fan of the opera you have there like the opposite again, as Dorothy Andson, this is a different Anderson, with an e rather than Oh, points out in their two thousand and six thesis bewitching writing. Norwegian play right Lugwig hole work wrote a comedy called masquerades, but with a sea rather than a cure OK, in one Thousan seven hundred and twenty four, which the Danish composer column Neilson and Rider Willhelm Anderson adapted into comedic opera called masquerades about with a chaos. Pratchett spells it in nineteen or six. Fan of the opera comes out in nineteen or nine, nine hundred and ten, so when it's serialized and their novelized, so just before fan of the opera, which apparently continues to be performed at the Royal Opera in Curpenhagen. Apparently this is a pretty famous opera in, I guess, Europe and and Denmark specifically. It's about some lovers who needed a masquerade and they don't know each other's identity. So it's sort of like a Cinderella thing, Cinderella, Romeo and Juliet, I guess. But Addison says both the play and the opera deal a thematically with the change of traditions when something new of olds in society and the conflict between generations and their different viewpoints, which isn't a very helpful summary. Go broad but again seems to be touching on the same things as singing in the rain, as fan of the opera, as masquerade. So I think that's another influence maybe woven in there that I don't know about. HMM. But yes, I don't know enough to talk about that because I didn't go and read or watch a Danish oppera that I only found out about yesterday. If anyone has seen that upper knows about it wants to write in and explain if there's any illusions, because I haven't found anyone else mentioned this connection. But I feel like this is something prachu would have known about if he's researching operas. Apparently this is a pretty famous one. So if he's stealing its title, yes, and this is this is where you get to jump in, because in their article believing is seeing from the guilty of Literature Collection James Brown, who, I assure him,...

...is not the sole singer. They compares masquerade to Ben Johnson Sixteen ten play the alchemist, since Agnes, the character who exposes the fraud and stands up for truth, in a sense, emerges as the most gullible and least satisfied character of the lot. Now we spoke about Ben Johnson in our Sandmn new game and Baroness podcast that you can get by signing up at patuondcom Dr Promethias Pod. But I don't know anything about this play. But Elise, you do. No, this is the problem. I started reading it this morning right, so I haven't got to the end and this was one I was wanting to read. Well, I was meant to be reading masquerade. So watch this space. I'll record something and Tuck it in. And the introduction to the same collection, David Langford, also points out a connection to Peter Shaffer's one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight player Arma Dais, which is about the eighteen century Italian composer Antonio so Larry, who wrote art, accused of poisoning him, and so Larry means salt seller, so that's why we have cells. It was a sell, sells a lot. Is the villain in the book in Masquerade? I. Yeah, I originally my note with this. Is this a meetingless illusion? But no, this is telling you he is the bad guy. Like, if you know the history of opera, you know that the guy who shares the name of the Guy who poisoned Mozart. Yeah, is the evil ghost. Another illusion that I was very excited to have found for myself. What is the movie scream? Oh Yeah, have you seen screen high? Right, so screat we are, you know, the like ghost face guy. Yeah, scream, yeah, yeah, okay, scream is a it's the Meta slasher. It is the slasher about slashes. The premise of it is all the characters in the film are Big Slasher fans. They know the rules of slasher films and they find themselves in one. They start dissecting what should happen and what shouldn't based on the movies they've watched and that it turns out the killers because there's two of them. That's the big twist of scream. They can't work out her the killers after there's a second kill. I write. That's the same twist of masquerade. Also, the the screen killer is called Ghost face. So ghosts, masquerade, ghost ghost face, never slasher. All this I'm like, Oh my God, this is screen. PRATCHETT's too. Scream. I was really excited about this. So I found out that screen came out a year after masquerade. So screams doing pratchett screams to a practice were you go? So I don't I think this is complete coincidence because screen would have been in production earlier. PRAHAT is writing his book of one. They're in completely different things, but there's like some kind of maybe just we've hit that point of prostmondsm something's going on here that both of these things I essentially arrived at the same point with the same plot details. And maybe that has something to do with the Phantom of the opera as a horror influence, which we'll talk about more later. But me be they're drawing from something going on there. I don't know, there's no connection, it's just like pure coincidence. But what a coincidence, and what a smart guy to have pointed that out. Yes, yes, so smart, although perhaps more fittingly. I'm wondering because in inproparation with this, like a couple of weeks ago, Maddie and I did watch the these screen movies, the first two at least. The first one still really great. The second one no good, but then that let us, we watched. I'm a shame to amit. We did also watch the first three scary movie movies. You familiar with these, Josh? Have we? Have you not figured out? I just can't do any form of scary film and just will not. If it's called scary movie? I know it's a parody, but it's still scary to me. The scary movie films are a big deal. When I was like thirteen, there were what the older kids were into when I was in school, because you're older than me. These movies are horrible. Checks out. They are incredibly homophobic. It was right at that moment, wasn't it? Yeah, the second one is maybe the worst film I've ever seen. HMM, yes, we we watched the the scary movie films, which was a weird premise. I was pointing out because, as I just explained to you, scream is already commenting. It is already a parody of slasher films, because the first scary movie is pretty much a direct parody of screen. So it's already a parody of our postmond deconstruction. So similar, yeah, we're getting. We're getting somewhere in there, because scream is it's not funny, but it's very campy. Okay, it's very cheesy, it's very campy. So it doesn't really work. But at the the twist at the end of the first scary movie is it is also a parody of the usual suspects. Do you do? Do the usual sung? Yeah, usual suspects. Yet so the end of scary movie one is there's a character who's a parody of one of the characters and scream, whose names doofy, who is played as a how do we put this develop mentally into intellect challenged dude through the whole movie as a live piece, a hunching and he's and everyone thinks he's are doofy you're an idiot. And then the end he turns out to be the real killer and he does the walk down the street and starts walking straight and gets in the car drives off like usual suspects, which is sort of what happens in masquerade with Walter Pledge. Yeah, right. So all this is to say press is not only predicted scream but predicted scary movie. You heard any ch HMM, postmodernism. MMM MMM. I mean it's kind of weird to call the scary movie films postmode Insm but it's true. Right, MMM, it's the dark side. But yes, of course the the major influence of masquerade is the Phantom of the opera which, as we mentioned before, was first published as a serial in the French...

...newspaper laguios. I'm I don't know how to say that, log Alt Annoy Lug Alloy. I think that's close. That is good. It's but it was probablished in a French newspaper in on thousand nine hundred and nine and then as a novel in one thousand nine hundred and ten and translated into English a year later, in one thousand nineteen eleven. Part of the reason there was a delayed this as well, as I said, probably to get the most out of masquerade. You you probably want to read fan of the opera, which I also thought would be interesting to you for dark hero reasons. So you read the I'm all right. How do you feel about the fan of the Opera House? I didn't like it very much. I don't think it's a great book. It's not a great book at all. And obviously the interest to me is the dark hero stuff and even though there are these illusions and I think, as you've pointed out, there's something there with a vampire, I didn't think there are any sort of significant meaningful connections, like if I'm going to write this book in a few years on like the development of different dark heroes, and I'm I was thinking about where it would fit and what I would say about it and would fit into the gothic villain and like developments of the gothic villain in the new gothic revival. But yeah, not very interesting. I I wasn't blown away. No, it's I don't think it's a very well like written book. Hmm, I think there's some there's some cool stuff in it, but it's it's like pretty cliche as well. It's like not being translated might be a problem as well. I feel like we might have lost quite a bit maybe, and I think that's why it doesn't come up. For me, and like all of my rating on dark heroes, in the history of Dark Hera Heroes, it's obviously very English centric, anglophone centric, and it's French. So we don't obviously we do go so which is Germany, but yeah, it doesn't come up. I was gonna say I don't think Fatom of the operas this influential thing. Like I don't think it's establishing anything. I think where it's interesting is maybe the culmination, like it's yeah, solidify, not even solidifying, but it is like the the saturation, the what's the word when, like you go to all the the bakeries and they all have the same frozen muffins. See, I think that happens in the BYRONIC hero right. Yeah, that's my whole argument. But we are going to go into the the Gothic villain stuff earlier. But there's something going on in here, I think, with the family opera as a reflection of these tropes, development, the choits, rather than establishing them. As far as like within the family. The opera itself I thought might be interesting to you, because the book itself literally like literalizers the progression from the demonic heuristic faust to the romantic done. It's Don John Right. The tradition they're engaging with is the Don John Tradition. Byron changes it and does Don Juan Right, because in the in the one of the family, the oppera movies, I think it's the hammer horror one day. Well, Mabe, it's the one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine one. They say like Don Joam. They say it really weird. Well, technically I think it is meant to be June because of like the meter of his poetry. But just call it one and be done with it. Everyone Don Juan, Don Juan, Don Giovanni. But yeah, so, so, for people not familiar with with the family, the opera they're performing, faust is the play they're performing, and the Phantom wants to fuck with their fast performance and then ultimately replace it with his own play, which is called Don win triumphant, which talking about the development of the Byronic hero and the dark hero and everything like that. Starts with Faust and Marlow and everything and and and and my Milton but fast and then goes through Byron, who writes Don Juan, embedding that progression within the narrative. Oh, I see, you're embedding in the narrative right. Yeah, I see. Yeah, yes, they the start of what the what the Phantom, what the dark gothic villain guy wants, hmm, is to usurp or or supplant a depiction of a greedy Satanic Faustian figure with a sexy dude, with a sexy romantic figure. My issue then, is like Don John or Don Juan Byron Story, which I have now read. There's not any of this mephas to Feelian Faustian stuff in it. He's just a sexy dude getting into trouble, being sold as a slave, seducing some ladies. So I see, like that's what he wants. It's just that actual Don John doesn't, Don Juan doesn't supplant the fast in villain. Instead, Byron has all these other Byronic heros that I think he write a barn turns the dark hero from my satanic figure into a sexy are antic one. Yeah, I think it's it's complicated, but I don't think Larry. He's going, yes, I'm making a Meta commentary on, MMM, Byronic things. I think he's just gone yeah, fast and and Don Juan. But he's doing that because that's what Byron's done to the culture. Yes, instead of the opera reflects that culture. So we're getting a look of that progression. Yeah, yes, that is my argument in my thesis. Guest on the road did it. So bent to the drawing board. Not Very well, though. He reflected it. He reflected it, he didn't do it. It only influence car culture for the next hundred years. Still Reckon. Yeah, Byron is so interesting because he's with US everywhere, never, never alone. HMM. All right, we'll come back to this, but that's my basic like. So I think that's there. There as many critics, as also pointed out, the Phantom is also a Faustian story, with Christine playing faust to the Phantom's mephist off these, who she summons...

...as the age of music, securing the sacred fire of inspiration. I thought what was interesting with Christine. Maybe I miss something, but it wasn't like she wanted anything. He was just trying to seduce her. So it's more satanic than Faust. But even then Eve does want knowledge, you know, pride something. Christine does want to be a successful singer. Yeah, she was already pretty good, though. Right. Well, she wants to be in the family opera. She wants to be she wants to be the superstar. She wants to replace the woman who is already the biggest. MMM. It just seemed like a big jump down from can I have all the knowledge in the universe please, to like, I'd like to be the star of the show. Well, I mean by the by the Adam and eveything. She's already fallen. She already has all the knowledge of the universe and now she wants fame. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, Prsmond is, mm HMM, it's one thousand nine hundred and ten Josh, yes, her money is yeah, no, that's my exact note. Is that she doesn't summon him like fast does. He appears to her and offers her hey, I can teach you how to sing, and I've written that is a satanic temptation rather than a Fastian Bard him there, and this is my thing, right, Satan sneaks in. We don't. We Think, oh, it's faust or it's Byron, but actually it is the satanic tradition and it's everywhere and nobody pays any attention to it. Yeah, well, I mean fast is Satan, right. That's that's the other wow, fasty, it has an element of Satan in it. I know they're not one to one. Than what I said that that is a generalization of me say, but you can fail. Is playing with say it's just an atheist to me, because I'm like, but there are so many different satans and they're catalog of this is not like Satan is literally Prometheus. I might make that argument, but faust is a a version of the satanic story or memphist off of lasers. Yeah, he's a virgin, but even then he's taking fou soul back to say. Anyway, it's fine. You join me on my podcast where we go into the background of all of this in a couple of weeks. Are you doing a foust? Well, we're gonna do Manford, so will touch on fouls through girth or and then we'll get keep going backwards. I'm not doing them in order. It's great having a good time. You do whatever you want. Yeah, yeah, so just just finishing up on that satanic theme as well. In a rather brilliant undergraduate thesis, right, undergraduate. So, yes, the equivalent on as fast, but not a master's or anything, just undergraduate thesis from earlier this year on the fantom of the opera and Gothic space. Zita and Reno also argues that, since the underground regions of the Opera House are frequently described as a hellish landscape fit only for Satan ghosts and the likes of Eric, that's the name of the Fantom in the fan of the opera. There is a thing I realize here. where, like you know, you call you don't say friend. It stands monster. So friend of stands creature, because you meant to be neutral rather than calling monster us, and so I think there's a thing with fan of the opera scholarship. You're meant to call him Eric, which is his mutual name, rather than calling him the Phantom, which will go. I'm just calling him the Phantom so that you know I'm referring to the fanom of the opera, but fit only for Satan ghosts and the likes of Eric, by specifically calling the underground layer a retreat on more than one occasion, which is a comparison that likens the home and the domestic with Hell. I just thought like throughout I picked up one. You know, there's this Hellscape, but beneath, yes, faust, bringing the thing back here. Whatever. I don't know about domestic home. What. Yeah, I think that the hinging that on retreat is something there. But early he does make a home out of it. Right, and the same way. Say, well, that's that's the thing. That's what she's saying, is that Walter and the Phantom, Walter and masquerade and Eric in the fan of the opera. I'm not welcome in the Opera House, so they go underneath where they make their own kingdom. Right, better raining hell is better to Ragin in the cateacombs. Make a Heaven Appall, a Hell of heaven. Right, make a home of the all right, secret means. Yes, she could take that a little further. But yes, does she go on and talk about it. Like I said, this is undergraduate thesis and this is the best piece of scholarship I read on the fan of the opera. I think it's brilliant. I'm also I'm cautious to quote from this because maybe she's just pulling it from somewhere else. and maybe this is a shallow reading and I'm just finding it more accessible, but I don't know. There was. I will send you this thing because I think there's some stuff in there, like she talks about these connections to it faust and the gothic stuff. It might be interesting. I'd I thought it was great moving from undergraduate thesis to literary Titans during an analysis of Stephen King's misery from that tiny seven. That's the book, not the analysis. I'm not sure what ire the analysis is. Margaret Outward also compares kings version of the Sultan's Maze Motif, which I had to go through her other works and find is the moteeth of a woman imprisoned in a lab labyrinth. Hmm Yeah, so Margaret Outward Compares Kings use of the Sultan's Maze Motif, which is used, she says, among other place, is in the fanom of the opera, in which the patron of a work of art wishes to murder its make us so only he will possess its secrets. Have you read misery, you Stephen King? I haven't. Misery might be my favorite Stink Stephen King Book, I think, but it is about Stephen King had a had a axe car accident or something that he had to recover from. That was a big thing in his career that like he wasn't going to write and then he had a crash and realize like Oh, what if I'd never finish all these books, and came back and finished off his series and everything. But he wrote a book called Misery W which is about a writer, because of Stephen Kings protagonissar himself, who isn't a car crash and then is rescued by someone...

...who turns out to be a big fan of his work. But he hasn't or actually, in the in misery he's finished the series but he killed off the main character and then she's like no, that's no good, I'm keeping you hostage until you rewrite this last book to suit my like Fan Cannon. It's really good. I think it might be my favorite Stephen King Film and book. But which is to say that the fantom of the operas that sort of thing? But Margaret, that was says, because the point I'm actually trying to get to about Margaret Atwood is that she also compares the Fantom's underground layer to the descent into hell in virgils A, neared and neared and neared. I always struggle with that one and the not unrelated GRIMM's fairy tale, the twelve dancing princesses or the worn out dancing shoes. We're in. Twelve princesses sink into the ground each night and cross a subterranean late to a place where they danced with twelve princes until their shoes collapse. Get better shoes, which she's acknowledging. The the descent into hell. was why I wanted to jump to that. Quite it's funny that she picks those two our and not the other hundreds of representations of descent into hell. Right, I would have gone a Dante. HMM. Yeah. Well, this is the thing with with its Word Association. Yeah, Text Association. She just runs from one thing to one thing. So all that she goes. She's talking about a misery and she goes. That's like fandom of the opera, which is like the how, which is like they're any it, which is like this group's fairy tale, and doesn't make a point about any of them. Just goes AH, YEP, you like. What was that, Sorr? Yes, we'll come back to add because she does some more crazy stuff later. But in terms of fan of the opera, yes, another obvious influence or precursor to the fan of the opera is Victor hugoes eight hundred and thirty three novel the hunchback of Notre Dame, which is perhaps also alluded to masquerade via Walter Clinch Right. He's the humbled service person. He's not a hunchback, but he's sort of like scrunched. He's a scrunchback. It's got bad posture. Have you ever? You read that book? Now I've seen the film. Yeah, the dizzey on. It's good. Right. Have you been to Notre Dame? I was going to read it. I wanted to buy a copy of Notre Dame from Notre Dame and read it and then I didn't because it's very long. I've been before and after the fire. Oh, you went after the fire? Yeah, and before before the fire. I am amazed that not a single notable black metal band has used that as an album cover. The Burning Notre Darms go, I know like some underground bands would have used it by I am amaze that I have not seen that just everywhere. All death metal covers for the next like hundred years, every day, a hundred years. Notre Dame burning not sounds pretty cool, right. Yeah, I like Notre Dame. Muddy dragged me to like a million in churches when we went to you in Europe, the churches do get old, you know, obviously there's some good ones, but let's like, let's hit the you know, the highlights, rather than just we're going to visit every fucking church. And I was going to say Notre Dame is by far the best one, but actually, cloned dome. That's pretty sick. York win stuff is my favorite. There's one in the middle of it, just in the middle of Florence's, is a big fuck off Che yes, pretty sick. I didn't go inside that where, though, but in terms of like Goth Shit, not a dam. Yeah, he was banging like the back of it looks cool. Or used to. Yeah, used to, says hunchback of Notre Dame. I think there's something there. I wanted to be able to say more about it. I was going to read hunchback of Notre Dame because that is a gap in my literary thing, but I just read all the vampire books instead. Guess it's there but it's like the same thing, right. You got a disfigured guy running around in a castle. I guess the difference is that he doesn't manipulate the lady into loving him. She just loves him for who she is. I want to say that, but I don't know because I haven't read it. You've seen the movie. Yeah, but we went through had Disney fucked up that right? Yeah, we did like three parts on that. HMM. The other thing about fan of the opera is he's FRANKENSTANCE CREATURE DRESSED UP HIS DRACULA. Yeah, baby, right, he's the I'm ugly and I can't be in society and I'm going to wear a cloak and run around and kidnap bucks and Wenches. It's funny because like going back through Frankenstein that I can't say this word. The physiognomy like the like your face tells people who you are and you can make judgments about the face. Yeah, brain, yeah, and like you know, Frankenstein's creatures like all ugly and disgusting, and then the joke will not the joke. The whole point is that he's actually bite a nice person until society corrupts. are also he's a mass murderer. That comes later. He collects fire would first he's nice. He does murder the first charliti meets. Who William? Oh No, that's after the fact. He's been living with the delaces for months before that. Yeah, but he's never met a child. Okay, sure, after he's become corrupted, the first person he meets his good. If you get one rejection gives you a free murder. What I'm saying is like, he's Nice, then he is corrupted by society, and shelley doesn't do things like slowly. She just like draws a line. All Right, now you're evil and you're killing children. Okay, there's which, honestly, Dracula could have used stuff that pacing. And it's interesting because, like all the evolutionary psychology stuff, it kind of lines up and it's craziness because it's like physiognomy is crazy. And then evolutionary psychology has these weird theories about, you know, you're like men with big beards or whatever because they're sex in it's like not what, I just had a trim. Hey. It is funny how the crazy intersects in that one and they're both trying to say that like ugly people are like evil or unlikable or outcasts of society, and...

...actually they're quite nice. All right. Just got nothing to add because as a certified Stub Offfin, I've never had this problem so unrelatable. And they are two thousand and eight book secrets of the Wifery, men and discworld to carry Canon, let's say name with two wires and two ks back and Linda Washington, suggest fan of the opera, also may have been inspired by George de Mar is one thousand eight hundred and ninety four novel Trilby, which is about a turned young woman who can't see but who is hypnotized into doing so by the musician and Mesmerist Svengali's and Narni. This one. No, no, I actually have read a bit of trilby because it came up because do Mary wrote another book called the Martian, which is about a Martian who comes to earth and is sort of amazed at the, I guess, immorality of mankind and is he is the pure person who comes and teaches us how to be better people. It's one of those stories are but of course he is a vegetarian and this book is mentioned in the same vegetarian general that Vegetarians talk about how great it's. She wells as war of the world's is. So that is how I came across triulby. And our last possible inspiration for the fan of the UPER or textual inspiration, is fairy tale scholar Maria Tada, who we talked about in some of the which is abroad episode. It's also reads fan of the opera as a blue beard story due to its focus on compulsive female curiosity and the controlling male figure. Also Eve. But yeah, okay, what we said Blue Beds, eve. Right, yeah, I mean this is specifically a man locking a lady up in a you know, a tower labyrinth. They h she he doesn't say don't check this thing, he says don't take off my mask. Is there in there? The other major influence on Laura's fan of the opera is the Gothic architecture of the opera houses themselves. M Blaa's Phantom was primarily inspired by the one thousand eight hundred and ninety six sharedolier crush, the killed a concierge in an opera house. That was based on a real event. So in her thesis Reno illustrates how early opera houses began to ideologically influence their audiences, pointing to the Italian for house, Ta Tarana Alascala, Tetra Alascala, thank you els, which was rebuilt in one thousand seven hundred and seventy six after being destroyed in a fire, with funding being provided solely by the nobility that frequent at the theater before it burnt down, meaning they could pretty much do what they wanted in the Opera House after it rebuilt. Right, they bought the right to use the opera house at their whim, which then led to upper class control of opera HMM. As the influential opera critic Carol Channa Lynn explains, the boxers became their private salons. Each box was decorated differently according to the owner's tastes, with silk tapestry or scenes from favorite operas covering the walls and frescoes, mirrors or carved wood which adorned the ceilings, and that the boxes could be closed off, allowing intimacies in the box, which gave rise to gossip of every time. So they are, they're banging in that in the boxes, but they are essentially using the opera houses there, you know, private playhouse. It's become, yeah, less about opera itself and it's about this upper class getaway. I guess, and NA argues, that these boxes resembled miniature homes, visible but unattainable by the rest of the audience and thereby reiterating the nobilities position at the top of society. The nobles display of their wealth and power through the boxes became as much a production as the plays themselves. For the attendance of the archduke Ferdinand and Arch Duchess Maria Ricardo Beatrice dft at the inaugurable performance at at this newly rebuilt Opera House. They are on the title page of the Opera's program larger than its title, which didn't feature either of the composer's name nor the singers. So we're getting this replacement of art by celebrity, which I think is another thing that Pratchett's engaging with in masquerade. Yeah Right, this is why they want Christine in there rather than Agnes. It's Lett no longer about talent, it's about staff quality, as they call it. The opera houses and the divided space within therefore became a symbol of a sophisticated and cultural opper class which was threatened by the unwelcome lower class phantom in a rose novel M. I mean we're seeing that fantom of the opera was already a comment about class politics, but I think Maskud Braid's commenting more on on this this class divied rather than opera itself. Because yeah, masquerade is about opera, but it's also a parody a fan of the opera which, despite its title, was not an opera. Nor has it ever technically been an opera I've knowed anyway. This is kind of a similar CRA thing where people who think of opera these days probably the first thing they go to a fan of the opera. Not An opera. It's just at the opera and he's a phantom. He doesn't do opera. But yes, it's misleading. Well, it is, of course, the basis for the Andrew Lloyd Webber Musical family, the opera from one thousand nine hundred and eighty six, which was the highest grossing musical of all time, having earned nearly three times more than the then most lucratic film, which was James Cameron's titanic. This is in the late s when when preacher or masquerade? Or actually that's before titanic, but in the s right. So it's it until Avatar came along. It to do in three times as much as the most successful film, although I was overtaken in two thousand and fourteen by the Lion King and I believe it's now third behind the lion king of wicket. But that's because these plays they go on for like I wonder where Hamilton's at there. HMM. That's the other reason. The reason why it took them so long to make a movie of Weber's Faan of the opera, right, the he comes out in two thousand and four and he's after masquerade and twenty years almost after the show...

...debut, is that they don't want people to be able to go see the movie, they want them to keep coming to the play. So that's why there is no Hamilton movie. There is no wicked movie. Well, there's Hamilton movie in the works, but you're right, they've pushed it. Yeah, they've done in the heights first. HMM. Interesting. Yeah, so this is still running in New York, where it's become a Broadway institution and shows no signs of closing, and as I was writing all of this, when I was supposed being together, got an email saying do you want tickets to Fami of the opera opening in Melbourne, which has been postponed into two thousand and twenty two? But yeah, this is this thing is still coming. People are still into fanom of the opera. But for all of this, I'm not really sure why pratture was inspired to write about the family opera in one thousand nine hundred and ninety five or the mid specifically, because one thousand nine hundred and eighty six after the play came out, right, you'd want to write something. Then two thousand and four is when the film comes out. I don't know what's happening between those two points. Maybe you didn't see it for five years or ten years or yeah, I mean we're saying this was inspired by he went to the opera. He probably went to see fan of the opera and it's just strange that this happens at this point rather than in response to where there are those things. It's Pratchett man. So yeah, we're saying a family the operas not an Offera. But, as we're himself said, in a nineteen eighty eight Time magazine feature. What do we mean by opera anyway? And he argued that there's no difference today between opera and serious musical theater, that these are terms that divide class their quantity of I don't know. I thought opera was a particular type of singing that had been gentrified a little bit but were still very difficult to do. I guess normal singing is difficult to do well, I wouldn't know. That's like higher low literature, had mainstream literature, literature and Genre Literature. They're both words and books with stories and plots, but one is serious art, right. So I'm not I'm not sure if Pretchett ever really engages with this highermo culture thing in in mass great because he's sort a post the fan of the opera musical, like there's already been that collapse. He is just treating them because the same thing. But I guess like inherently in writing a accessible popular fantasy novel, satirical humorous fantasy novel about the pretensions of Opera, he's like acting that collapse and he's saying that your sophisticated culture is nothing but a bunch of silly superstitions. Yeah, and he's saying it's full of fantasy. Yeah, that you people are deluded, that you believe in all these superstitions like break a leg. So it's like Nick Meth really, yes, which is another way that is at a rehash of weird sisters. But again, I think that there's something going on in this book and I don't know, it's like he was trying to do. Yeah, lots of these little things, but he never quite brought it to a head in a very like noticeable way, I guess, like if you're if you're just me reading the book and not analyzing it for weeks and reading it three times, as you have, it's just like, what did I just read? Yes, so in his two thousand and nine article, what do we mean by opera anyway, which is named after Webber's quote, David Chandler characterizes Webber's Phantom as a work of popular musical theater that attempts to be as operatic as possible without, however, repelling an audience who would ordinarily consider the idea of opera intimidate. So he's on the cusp and and I did watch. I watch the two thousand and four film, which was garbage. But it is like singing all the time. It is a very operatic musical. It's not like, you know, grease or something where they break into song occasionally. The whole thing is is some moreover, as the author of the two thousand book getting opera, a guide for the cultured but confused, Matt Dub can, points out, opera has historically been a popular art form that aim to entertain ordinary people, advising his readers not to be afraid of opera because some force has foolishly built it up as the ultimate in refinement. So this is again the Shakespeare thing. Used to be a popular things for everyone. It's been canonized as this culture and it's got away from its lower class popular roots and through things like their weber musical and looks like Carpa Juggulum, it's being brought back to the people, so to speak, at which is what we'dciss is about. But I think that's what's going on in masquerade. That's never quite articulated properly. It's about this class revision and this is parody directly in masquerade by audience attendees like the legal clerk, Henry Lawsy. Yeah, who attends the opera seeking to improve his mind, having bought a book about the uper and read it carefully, because he'd heard that it was absolutely unheard of to go to an opera without knowing what it was about, and the chances of finding out why you were actually watching it were remote. And I can actually relate to this. I don't know, because again in the same trip where I wanted to buy a copy of the hunchback of Notre Dame, while is that Notre Dame, to get it that sort of Notre Dami or but we did go. We went to the globe in London, so we bought tickets to see what was on when we're there. Was Julius Caesar, so I bought a copy of July Caesar from a bookshop and I and I read it all before going to see this place. I wanted to know Julius Caesar so I could understand it before I went. I think that was a mistake. With Shakespeare, actually find the story with Shakespeare comes through way more clearer when you're watching it. But I did the same thing. I wanted to go in knowing about the play rather than just it's also academics, so that's true. This is what I do for fun. Same's he's. You also have the new opera house owner in masquerade, the investor, Mr Bucket, which is an allusion to Mrs Bucket from the early S British Sitcom keeping up appearances, who insist that her name is actually pronounced bouquet due to middle class pretentions. So again, just just through that illusion, he's like hinting at this theme. Yeah, the new new vote, riche new very spot was a yeah, but you have to know these things to see what he's getting like. I think it is a more subtle book than weird sisters, but maybe not a successful getting...

...its idea across. I'm not sure. The annentted project also points out that many people have also spotted the description of Walter plinge of having a beret of Brown coat, nervousness being clumsy as being very similar to that a Frank Spencer, who's the lead character in the British television comedy some mothers do Avum, and Frank Spencer was played by Michael Crawford, who went on to become truly famous as the original phantom in the weather musical. So I don't think that one's making a point, just a cool little illusion bringing British sitcoms and the weather musical together. So yes, we're not sure why a Protchett was into fan of the opera in the mid S, but, like fan of the upper was a big cultural institution of that point, although, as channel notes, opera attendance in Britain increased by less than three percent during the s. But chandel argues that the desire to like opera is file stronger than actual opera appreciation, and this has led to a great proliferation of what might be termed entry uns level materials, while making comparatively little difference to such advanced forms of opera appreciation, such as actually sitting through. What kids back though? That's pretty funny. It's like reading her and I saw St Yeah, Nice, but people should read paradise lost absolutely. Should then listen to my podcast on it. But yeah, I like sort of argue the opposite, like, if you take the popular view of this, of like there is no divide between opera and musicals. They are of the same form. This is saying that what opera is more popular now, like this data set, depends on what you qualify as opera or not. If fat of the opera is an opera, then audience attendance of operas increased a billion fold or whatever. But it's not an opera, only opera. People are saying that, whereas Andrew Laws Weber saying, no, this is what opera is now, this is what it has transformed into. They are from the same tradition. Okay, I sat as a touch certain type of singing, but then all operas are musicals. Like you go the other way with it. Not. It's not a whole musical as opera, but all operas are musical. So musical attendance increased and then it becomes into genre thing rather than a type thing, I guess, because the other thing you have happening in the early s is the Disney Renaissance we talked about. They're all musicals. The other thing with the Disney renaissance is it's all the guys who do the songs came from musical theater. The guys who did who framed Roger Rabbit and little shop of horrors, Alan men can and composer Howard Ashman, who did the music follow the Little Mermaid, beauty and the beast and Aladdin, with men can, later working on pokerhondas, the hunchback of Notch Dram Hercules and tangled as well, and you have the Disney hunchback coming out in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six O, one year after masqueraine. There's something going on with a musical theater revival, if not a opera revival, during the ten years between Webb's Phantom and Pratchett's masquerade, but it is not acknowledged as one because of that popular distinction between real opera and and musicals, I guess. Hm. Also, interestingly, as channeler notes, despite unprecedented popular crack claim, or perhaps because of it, the development of a significant body of Lloyd Weber criticism has been remarkably slow. As I was saying at the start, that there's just there's nothing about masquerade. It doesn't even have a google scholar page. I couldn't find anything about Web's fan of the opera in terms of academic scholarship. HMM. Like I think I'm quoting like two or three articles here, but you'd think as a it was build as the most successful entertainment venture in the world. That's been ongoing for the last thirty or forty years. I think we're up to now. Like you think there'd be a ton of Weber critism. There's just nothing written about it. So it's almost like the opera snubber. He comes with the academic sorry, I would say that literary scholars probably aren't paying much attention to it because, like fan of the opera itself is like French and then the other stuffs happening kind of in the popular sphere. And it's a musical, so like the genre does. Like I wouldn't think of it. It would be something that I'd throw in in the introduction. Okay, I was pretty amazed at how much, how little scholarship there was for the woid Weber musical and and the film and also just the Fatom of the opera novel itself, given how culturally prevalent they are, because whether these are good or relevant or anything like, we all know what fan of the opera is. HMM. You just like it's so in the culture as a thing and there's just not much written about the actual texts and things themselves. It's really interesting. I think there's some snowberry and I just think that some of it maybe isn't like purposeful, like I'd just be like, oh, that's a different genre or that's over there, like I'm dealing with the literary and yeah, so, yes, to to summarize all of that, what I think masquerade is really about is returning opera and theater to the lower classes via the working class opera ghost of water plinge, which, as Grenny reminds us, is just another word for spirit, and spirit is just another word for soul. That's saying that the the working class, the lower class, other soul of the operator belongs to them, sees the means of production. I think that's kind of what he's saying about it. And also Walter Plinge, who we can see as an analogy for Lloyd weather, because he's written versions of poplar musicals like Webber's cats and a vida, along with miserable les and and other ones, but miserable lest yeah, there's a bunch of Lloyd weather musical parodies amongst the ones he's written, and it's sort of saying no, this is the future of opera's dead and old and silly, and multerplinge is going to come along and make it successful. MMM, because is like complain about how do you make money out of opera. Well, Andrew Low webbers made a lot of money, yes, like water plinges as well, not that we ever go back to the Opera House in discworld. Yes, all...

...of that brings us to the idea of the masquerade itself and back to the idea of carnival, which we explored in depth in the third which is a broad episode. So it's Roger Parker explains in the One thousand nine hundred and ninety four Oxford illustrated history of opera. Masquerade bowls originated in the opera houses of Italy as the combination of the carnival seasons theatrical productions, but became considered immoral by upper classes as the tradition was adapted into French and English culture. Are Due to their attraction of the poor and they're alleged leave vulgar behavior, to the extent that the upper classes eventually imposed dress codes on masquerades, demanding people were decently dressed, which ruled out most of the population that they were meant to include. We already discussed masquerades in the other episode, because this whole masquerade scene is a rehash of which is abroad. Right. Yeah, yeah, the Mess Guade Bowl, there nanny dresses up in the fancy clothing and pretends to be a socialite, like that's a scene from which is a ball which there is probably a parody of scenes like this in Fanom of the opera. We're Prachett. Didn't know who was going to write a book afet of the opera, but then he gets here and he just does it again, like we have death in the red clothes walking through the scene, which is what that's from fan of the opera, but already happened in masquerade. Shows up in a red cloak in the in which is abroad. So I thought that was pretty lazy figure. Something new, Pratchett, come on, or it's you know, it's a Meta commentry about narrative imperative that once you've got a masquade bowl, you got to have death there in the red. I don't know. To bring it back to the class things, though, the death being dressed in red at the masquerade bowl is also an allusion to it. Gallan Pos one thousand eight hundred and forty two short story, the mask of the red death, which is about the upper classes dancing at a masquade bowl where the lower classes all die from a plague outside. On that's relevant because everyone's at the met gala in America and then everyone in America's dying. The bad guy is an interesting one because I do look at it and go we immediately meet to hunger games and it's come to games exactly. Yeah, but also it's a benefit for an art the arts. I know it's a charity event. It's like includes like a lot of lgbt people and stuff. So I'm like, I don't know, maybe we just need to change it up a bit, like do we need fortyzero dollar dresses? Is that something we need the fashion industry in general? Yeah, the Phantom of the OP chopper. Fo I've got it. That's the biggest reaction of all. You. What if the fan of the OP shopper was also a hip hop er? What sees the Hamilton die in there? I love funs. I don't know if that was a Buch of a pump. It wasn't really a double man. They're just funny next to it. I mean, yes, I am very fine on top of baby, devastatingly attractive and quite really at times. Get it again. HMM. Yes, everyone's dying from the plague outside in the in the muscular red death, but then the Swiss on that story is a plague victim, then walks through the thing and kills them all, illustrating how disaster will come to those who try to exclude others. We know who says Sir. This is also another allusion to a story about the lower class coming for the upper class. Yeah, yeah, I guess the other thing to talk about here is is maskus themselves, which I don't really have to say any much to say about, but I do feel like we should dress given that that's the major theme of the book that is called Masquerade. So, in addition to social pretenses, masquerade is full of double or false identities, people masking their personalities. Just so list them all off. You've got agnes, who's Padda and also the singer for Christine. Got Christine who is masquerading as a singer. You have granny weather ax who's mask grading as lady Esperalda. Have Nanny being the lunk of which and also a maid or a servant at the Opera House. You have Greebo, who is portraying himself as human, as Lord Group Boru as the Ghost Henry slug who's being Enrico Basilica Andre, who's the undercover policeman, nobby, who's there as captain knobs, who that's actually in feed of clay, which is the next book. The whole plot point of that is knobby discovers he is of noble birth and there is a COUNTA knobs family. But then that turns out to be false and it was all a political ploy. Again, this is Prajett made a dumb joke about countainknobs and was like going to make an entire plot out of a for my dexbook and does run with it. What if nobby was fancy and there of course count tried us, which is another one of my favorite huns from the boks mid one. No one gets a belly laugh out of me every time I went past it in my audio books at night. I wonder if it's like, you know, you go to the offer to see people not being themselves on the stage but also in the crowd, because everyone's just not be idiot and so, oh, that's a good point. Yes, this is like the thing where everyone who watches the hunger games is watching the hunger games. Yeah, HMM, that uh, I'm the real show was the audience it's reflecting, which is as a link to like I want to bring up mirrors here because mirrors are another theme of the Phantom of...

...the opera, right. He's passage is hidden. He visits what's her name in a room behind, from behind the mirror and speaks to through a double sided mirror. And all the movies there's big scenes of them smashing the mirror. Of course, his appearance is a whole thing. He doesn't want to see himself in the mirror. It's like he's looking at a broken mirror. Mirrors are a theme. We talked about Mirror's mirrors. Anything to add marit's the there. Mirrors are a mask. Of course there's the allusion to like the tragedy and human masks, the Aristol and theater master of the frowning face mask, and so my face mask. You got two ghosts. So I'm sort of wondering, like his cells are meant to be the tragedy mask, but then it doesn't make sense. The waterpling is the comedy mask. Like he's not comedic, but if comedy is just in that theater mode of happy ending versus sad ending, that's a lot I don't know. Yeah, that's another one where I think Pratchett's like deliberately gesturing there, HMM, but isn't really making a point about it, just the the illusions imbedded in there by necessity, also in by CARPA Juggulin. So in the next book Agnes has learned to look around when she visited someone's home because in one way it was a piece of clothing and had grown to fit their shape and might show not just what they've been doing but what they've been thinking. Having been told by granny weather wax that are witch's cottage is their second face. So we have another illusion to mass in the idea of witchcraft being outward performance. Because, yes, it again we have this tension between granny weather wax being all about authenticity. Yeah, also everything is an illusion. Yeah, all right, back to outward I promised. Yeah, day. So on a two thousand and eleven reflection on her early comic reading habits called Flying Rabbits. This is in the other world's book. Margaret at word speculates the Batman's masque may have come from the comedia della Char tradition, which is a seventeen century Italian street theater, or from nights incognito such as Ivanhoe, or, and these are more sinister origins, from the Phantom of the opera or from Phantomus, which is not just the fifth bext Mike Patton Solo Project, but a quote masked and also French evil genius from the turn of the century, or, at it says, possibly just from the standard master rubber of the comics. So again this is that Word Association. She's going or Batman is like Dada, which is like Phantoms, which is like fan of the opera, which is like rubbers. But also Batman is very explicitly based on Zoro. M Bruce Wayne goes to see a performance of sorrow and his parents are killed outside the theater. Like that is written in the text of that man. MMM, sorrow with bats. She is right. She eventually gets there through her like Word Association, and it's not an argument. You're right. But also she didn't need to do that, because the guy who invented Batman said Batman is like Zoro. Yes, it's not just sorrow, right, this is a popular archetype in twenty century comics. Right, Batman comes out in the S, but this is a popular archetype of the early twenty century. Right. You got other examples such as the Scout, the shadow and the scarlet pimpernel. That can be traced back to Ivanhoe. There's also a mask thief named the Bat in the one thousand nine hundred and thirty film, in the bat whispers, who Batman created? Bob Kane is credited as another direct inspiration. So yes, as I said out what's not wrong, but it's not a mystery and she's not saying anything original or profound, like she presents that as I have unraveled this truth. You haven't. No one was asking the question and you didn't come up with anything. It also after all, that Batman has nothing to do with seventeen century time. Straight the correct so her starting point was way off. But the point of all that is the sensitive byronic gothic villain and romantic rebel provide the basis for a lot of popular by run Acre as an anti euros in modern cult that is my thesis and that's what we're going to analyze now. We've been talking a lot about family opera Maspirat in terms of romantic and Gothic archetype, specifically the gothic villain and, as you mentioned, alas, this is your entire thesis. So do you want to do the honors of Introducing the concept of the Gothic film? For us they're an interesting character because we start to get early versions of it in Shakespeare and they're kind of nefarious, trouble making men. We see them in sort of the vice character that is very popular in Shakespeare and drama, particularly the comedies and of course also the tragedies. But it really comes into its own in the eighteen century and most prominently, or really we draw a line and say this is the landmark. First ever gothic villain is Horace Wild Pole's castle, the Tronto, which is one thousand seven hundred and sixty one, and in that we sort of get it developed as an archetype and some of the key hallmarks are there. Often a patriarchal figure, I. Either the head of a family, there is some sort of important lineage associated with them. They are often motivated by the desire to maintain the purity or the power of that family or often to get money to support that family, and often they'll have a curse or a full or prophecy or something they're trying to fulfill, and that patriarchal motivation often manifests as oppression of women. Unsurprisingly, and in the early versions it is just it just is that. But then, as it starts to get developed, authors start to play around with this idea and criticize this patriarchical oppression of women and use it as part of feminist commentary. So if Horace Wallpole is the first of the Gothic Villain, we see it...

...developed through poetry and plays and copycat variations for the next couple of decades until you get to end Radcliffe, who is the next sort of development in this figure, and she starts to imagine it as a patriarchal figure who literally oppresses women, often by locking them up in places, forcing them into marriage, engaging in or attempting to engage in some sort of incestuous relationship. Beyond that, though, once we've established these two sort of variations of the gothic villain, you've got patriarchal figure who is patriarch almost for the sake of it, and the Patriarchal figure which is a commentary on female oppression and subjugation. You sort of established two different modes of the gothic villain and people start to experiment and play with them. From there? was that all off the top of yet yea, very impressive else. Thank you. Yeah, so we're going to look at this development and how it applies to found the opera primarily. But well, I want to go back and start at the beginning, with Molpole and with the Gothic villain in its original incarnation. So in his inform actual examination of the byronic heroes, types and prototypes from one thousand nine hundred and sixty two hitter L Thoslav, who is a very much our boy, here's our boy, yea, so hid. His examination of the GOTHIC types and prototypes, boslove describes the Gothic villain as always striking and frequently handsome, of about Middle Age or somewhat younger, with a tall, manly stalwart physique and dark hair and brows frequently set off by a Pale and ascetic complexion, and that, aside from this, the most noticeable of his physical characteristics where his eyes. Also, I've also notes the by birth, the gothic villain was always of the aristocracy, partly for the sense of power, which is no ability confers and partly for the air of the fallen angel, the air of the satanic greatness perverted, and that there is frequently some mystery connected with his birth or his upbring so my theory here is that after Satan and we've talked about this, maybe on this podcast before, definitely on my other one, which is called of the Devil's Party. You can find us on sounder, Satan X is a turning point for representation of the dark heroes. Have just set it again, because he is a sympathetic version of them, the first ever genuinely sympathetic bad guy. And I think all my theory is that after that he splits off and has sort of two very distinct traditions, and one is the romantic satanic here and the other is the gothic villain, and the differences in this, in the satanic hero of Romancism, all of his best traits are taken and emphasized and made more sympathetic and all of his worst traits are put into the gothic villain and emphasize there. Yeah, Ye, so, and you're specifically talking about Milton SAT paradise loss. Correct. Thank you. We've literally just talked about it on a man for an episode. So you're saying this happens even before the gothic tradition is established, because that, like customer Tranto, was often considered the first gothic novel. You're saying even before. It's not like there was a Gothic Villain Satan comes along and splits the character. It's that Satan came along and the tropes of Satan were then later divided. Yeah, and you can read all this in those lives. Book Analysis thesis also have also claims that in their original incarnation, gothic villains had no psychological must less philosophical complexity. Right there there mustache twilling villains. They are, after all, paceeboard characters. However, they did have great strength of will and also a forceful and ingenious mind, since they must devise the endless machinations of evil which make up the intricate plots are three volume novels. In though, their motives seemed inadequate to the torrents of evil unleashed in their personalities, and Thorso of continues that. It should be noted, moreover, that they are misogynists all. They take great delight that they are Misogynists, all taking great delight in persecuting women, partly from the exigencies of the plot, since these are all novels of female sensibility, but they go much further in this persecution than would be necessary to further their particular ends. So this is reflecting what you were saying, that there they're evil is often expressed through their they kidnap women. Right. This is the mustache twiling villain who kidnaps a women and then and all of that. This is the the archetype there. This to me pretty obviously applies to ARROIC or the Phantom and Phantom of the opera, with some exceptions. Does that fit for you? Yeah, he definitely kidnaps a women. Yeah, he's not particularly philosophically complex, despite his intrigra plots and evil match nations. Yeah, that's what I annoyed me about him. I found him a quite boring. For that reason, he is a what does false say? A cardboard, a peace board character. He is just the gothic villain. I don't think he's just the gothic villain. I do think there's more stuff going on there, because this also comes a hundred years after by, so we're talking much later, but in terms of using the archetypes Laras using this fan of the opera character, and I do think he subverts it by making the phantom sympathetic, as will get to, although maybe not a synthetic sympathetic as we think of him nowadays in the original novel, where he's sort of just a monstrous kidnapper. Yeah, the only bit here that I think contradicts is that the Phantom of the opera is pretty definitively not hot. That sort of his defining characteristic. But in the original novel, like that's the reason why he's exiles from societies. He's too ugly to exist in that he's not suous. It's the fragment start true. Everyone makes one of him. He's got no knows. How does he smell? He's face looks like a skull. Is really the description in the book. So He is forced out of society by his monstrous appearance and...

...then becomes a gothic villain. As those leave observes, and as Alice just told us, the GOTHIC villain made its first appearance in Horace Walpole's castle of a traitor from one thousand seven hundred and sixty one, which is fitting since it's the first gothic novel, so the Villad of the first Gothic novels, the first Gothic Villain, sort of is a torutology there. Yep. Do we want to talk about a trader to a bit, if you like, for people who haven't read it, and I imagine that's not many, and also you probably shouldn't because it's not very good. It's very short, though. Oh yeah, but it took me so long and all the interesting stuff happens in like the first fifteen pages. Yeah, yeah, what happens as a wedding and a giant, a giant Ghost Helmlet, appears out of nowhere and squashes the group. Yep, that's the first thing that happened in the book. It's great and it's never explained. So we need to get another person to marry the lady. Two ought to continue the family legacy and make sure the line is pure. So the Dad of the room decides he's going to marry her and she's like MMM, no, thank you, though. It freaks out and then some guy comes by and she falls in love with him and then he tries to help her escape, and then the bad guy, his name is Manfred, is chasing her forever and there's a Deuce do sex Mac and I is that hey say it da are sex man, day, sex Mac and other. We are at the end and everything sort of all goes back to normal. But the point is it's Isabella running from Manfred basically for the entirety of the play, and his wife is just like okay. The women are treated as just props to continue this bloodline, which I guess I was going to say for the time. But again, the whole point is none of this is actually written in or set in an accurate gothic clime, if there is such a thing, but in the medieval setting of the book, that the women are there as tools to be used to continue family relationships and things. The other most famous and influential early Gothic novels which you mentioned and read cliffs the mysteries of you Dolfer from Seou seven hundred and ninety four and the Italian from sevent hundred ninety seven, and Matthew Lewis is the monk from one thousand seven hundred and ninety six. That one I've read. I have not read red cliffs books because they're long and I'm a bad person. They are long. What I will say there is what's it? Thing about those ones is radcliffe probably shoes Udolpho and everyone says these are excellent. But some people are annoyed because, oh, she's a silly woman and her novels are famously Scooby Dooo. It's Preta natural and seat of the supernatural are the mysteries are proven to be just normal things happening and normally men behind them. Matthew Lewis reads that and goes now, let's turn it up, though, writes the monk, which is full of rape, incest and murder and say and Satan, actual various, actual people being chucked off cliffs. And then she writes the Italian in response to that, which is all of that scary stuff but done psychologically again. So this is war going on between whether or not it's horror or terror, whether or not it's psychological terror. It needs to be real things. So it's fun because I think that comes together in Phantom of the opera bit, because you've got everyone going out, there's a ghost, there's a ghost, there's a ghost constantly. So it could be supernatural but it's proven to be PREDA natural but he's also a psychopath. Yeah, you're right. So it's it's superstition being explained by, I guess, a rational explanation, which also happens in masquerade as well, right, which doesn't really make sense, as we discussed being in the supernatural fantasy world that everything has a natural explanation. So that, I guess, that's another way that practice sort of nodding towards this gothic tradition as well. He retains, yeah, the PREDA natural version. So yeah, thorsov considers the GOTHIC VILLAINS IN THESE NOVELS TO BE Representative of the model established by wall will. Right, they're still just these pretty surface level mustache twill and villains who are kidnapping women and running around doing the farious schemes. Nevertheless, though, he observes a certain a lure to the character type at this point, saying that the gothic villain is the protagonist of the Knowles in which he appears, in the sense that he is the major character. So even though he's the villain, he's almost there a protagonist villain. Yet as much as they are the main characters than they drive the action, they also acknowledge the moral codes of their societies and their own wickedness in violating these codes and therefore never fully engage our sympathies with their rebellions against them, persevering and evil to the end and spurning any deathbed repentance. So these characters are compelling but not likable. They're not sympathetic, they interesting, but we're not really rooting for them. Yes, all these books end with their defeat, right, hmm, whereas the romantic satanic hero is likable despite their awfulness. This is where I think the distinction is. It becomes very difficult to ever reconcile the GOTHIC villains crimes with their sympathetic qualities, and that is an established thing in their tradition. The only one that might, you might be able to, I think, is Frankenstein. Well, this is we're still like twenty years before franknsty this way, this is sort of pre the romantic schism, yea, the very start of it with Radcliffe. My point is in in the Gothic tradition they're using Satan and taking his worst qualities are kind of going on. We could sympathize, but actually we can't because of the worst qualities they're done to do that, whereas the Romantics, they're off, most of them, all of them, love the Gothic and they start to develop an alternative tradition, which is they have they're bad, but you like them anyway. So I think the too are working adjacent to each other, parallel to each other. It's very difficult to find a gothic villain that is genuinely sympathie, Thatdic, so you're saying. Well, once they by definition, once they become sympathetic, they no longer proper gothic villains. Yeah, or there are another variation or...

...the next get, you know, generation of Gothic Villain. Here right, and in her two thousand and seventeen chapter, ready for his close off about the transition from horror to romance in the Fanom of the opera, Jessica Sternfeld argues that the family opera still fits this mold in its original novel form. Right, saying that we might pity the Phantom and we might even be drawn to his seductive ideas, and he's dark bad boy persona, but he is nevertheless a murderer and d functional and unreformable reject of society, and that Christine has to go with her other love interest, Raoul. Right, the resolution of the novel is not she runs away with the Phantom, it's that she rejects the Phantom and goes back to side with the normal pretty boy. So in its original form, the family opera is playing into this gothic filled stereotype. Yeah, yeah, completely unreconcilable actions. Falso of riots that during his initial phase, the gothic villain of the novel was in somewhat the same situation as was Satan before he was romanticized by Blake and shelley. He has attractive characteristics, including a striking appearance and the air of the fall and angel and a romantic mystery, but he is not yet a romantic rebel. To become a romantic hero he must take on some of the characteristics of the hero of sensibility and he must be able to enlist at least a portion of our sympathies in his rebellion against society. I go off at that in my chapter. I think there's more to it than that, but you can come listen to our my other podcast. We also have hey and sort of a metafictional analysis the idea of tradition and literary troops forcing people to behave in certain ways. Right, once the row starts writing a novel about a Gothic Villain, this is how the story has to end, right. HMM. So, yes, it is him writing a story, but that sort of the real world equivalent of why the characters are acting in certain ways in masquerade and things that, once the story starts, you have to end. At that point it's not just the character, the character type itself determines the shape of the story. Yeah, I think is what Pratchetts playing with. Another aspect of the gothic villain are romantic archetypes that Pratchett is in gave you gym with, is their development through the theatrical tradition. Yes, this gothic villain character type has persisted throughout books and novels to well least the the early twentieth century. Although, as false lab observes, although the Gothic villain remained an unregenerate villain in the early novels, he became gradually more sympathetic throughout his theatrical betrayals, until at last he appeared as half villain, half hero of sensibility, becoming a true romantic rebel and anti hero in the works of Walter Scott and Lord Byron. Yeah, okay, so I'm going to do two things here. The theatrical tradition, but also this idea that he he becomes something else, half verr villain, half hero of Sensibility. I think the point is it's a different hero type. He it doesn't go from gothic villain into something else. The gothic villain is sustained as its own character type. It does its thing, but we're starting to get experiments with the gothic villain. So those characters you have aspects of the gothic villain but are actually doing other stuff and we would call them a hero of sensibility, a romantic rebel, a satanic hero. And I think continuing to call them gothic villains or starting to do at falselive does, which shits me. It's like's half this, it's half that, it's a third this. I think it's better to Ryan look at the different avenues of characterization. So I say that. On top of that, though, with the theatical development, what I think is really interesting here, and you can chime it as well, Manfred, who is one of Byron's more interesting characters from his closet. Dramas it came out in one thousand eight hundred and seventeen, has aspects of the gothic villain in him and he's quite a sympathetic character, but he really gets popular when they start adapting it for the stage, and I think that's where the gothic villain starts get a lot of its popularity from. Similarly, Frankenstein picks up popular opinion after it's adapted for the stage, which is when Frankenstein is sort of to be represented as a mad scientist and the creature starts to be represented as a monster. So it's almost like they double down on some of these stereotypes rather than acknowledging the complexity that's developed. That also applies to Dracula, the fand of of the opera itself, as we talked about previously. Right, not an opera, not a stage play originally, but is now primarily known as the musical. Yeah, so thoslove argues that this transformation is primarily brought about by the shifting of emphasis from unmitigated weakness on the part of the gothic villain to a deep and agonized remorse for past sins, and that's what you're saying, or have said, is a definitive aspect of the byronic romantic dark here. Yeah, yeah, three of the more notable playwrights who illustrate this trend Joanna Bailey, Matthew Lewis, who we already mentioned, and we a southby. I only know Matthew Lewis really out of those people. Day. You you're familiar with South Beard Bailey, familiar? Yeah, I've read the Culsal respector I haven't read the others. Well, the example of Lewis is interesting because of his contrary portrayal of the gothic villain in the monk. Other those I've dismisses, whose plays as ventures in undisguised commercialism with no literary merit. That's how I mean. I haven't read the Castle Specter. Is it? Is it just trash? I mean it's trash in the same way the monke is trash. It's four hundred pages, as in the monkeys of just like. Well, I mean what he is referring to there is the development of what we refer to now as like the masculine or the Germanic Gothic, which is, as I said before, terror instead of horror, like actual bad a sorry, horror instead of terror, actual bad things are happening. That's the problem. Well, we've got a bit of this, you know, divide between real literature and populist drama, you know, Opera and general literature that we talked...

...about in the last part. But nevertheless, as those I've also notes, the popular success of these plays was phenomenal, especially that of the Castle Specter. So what this is telling us here, or what this suggest is that the sympathetic characters are popular, they are, you know, getting a response from the audience that maybe the Satanic Complex Gothic villains and things aren't necessarily reaching. Or is it just more to do with the accessibility of the plays themselves than their actual content? I think it's part of the accessibility and the fact that they are so horrifyingly awful it becomes okay, well, I have to go and see it now and see what everyone's talking about. It's almost like it appeals to, you know, humanities obsession with weird and perverse things, you know, like Tiger King. Tiger king is crazy, yeah, exactly, and everyone watched it because it was crazy. I think it's the same sort of thing like have you seen the castle specter? You gotta go see it, and everyone went sor and it also makes these ideas more digestable to a pop their audience. You know, in quick, a five quick dact accession, you can see the degradation of this character rather than a five hundred patron novel. MMMM MMM yeah, no, Joe Exotic is not a particularly sympathetic character. Yeah, it southby's Julian and Agnes. However, that Bertrand Evans calls the strangest and perhaps best gothic play in his one thousand nine hundred and forty seven examination of Gothic drama from Walpout Shelley, identifying it as the most likely link between the gothic villain and the by Ronnick hero of Byron's man for it. And he says in the third act the plays Gothic villain turned hero of Sensibility, Alfonso divulgers the secret sin that he had lived in a biggamus relationship with Agnes and the young Allen and had slew Allen's brother in a sudden fit of anger when he returned and accused him of being in a biggermus relationship. I think that's it. It's weird and perverse. E from wants to go and see him. Do we want to explain what a hero of sensibility is? quickly, touchy, fairly blokes, Um, not so much touchy, right, they must feel they're in touch with their emotions and very attuned to the world around them. They don't kidnap women, they just look at them and ban cry. Yeah, the truly cry beautiful women. What's the the man of feeling? Mcnasy Mackenzie? Yeah, that's the sort of definitive hero of sensibility. Novel which that is literally chapters of this guy going to different places where sad things are happening and yeah, I'm crying about it as false live notes like barrons later man for it. Alfonso then retreats to the Alps, taking up residence in a monastery, from which he ventures out to rescue lost travelers, later being killed while protecting agnes and Allen from a group of bandits, he says. There is then a long repentance scene where in both women tearfully forgive the villain hero so that he expires in the good graces of God and Man. It's interesting because I think Byron takes this a well. Obviously Barron spent a lot of time in the Alps wanted to write about it, but it was being written about the idea of the hero of sensibility wandering round in the Alps and, like his barns, trying to live this gothic villain life as well. Sort of right, absolutely, Yes, when we call it the Byronick hero, like we've got a bit of a cycle going on there. He identifies with Satan quite literally in multiple letters. I went through them today because I did a footnote on them. Yeah, so the point here, they are in the transition to southbeas play, is that the gothic villain is a hero because they are ultimately forgiven. While they repent and then they are forgiven. Similarly, as stonefeld observes, the Phantom, with his incurable disfigurement, must be killed at the end of his story, choosing to disappear in a seemingly noble act of self sacrifice in order to save Christine. Where where you are, you're sort of rolling your eyes of that. What a what are you reckon house? Do you think he actually disappears as self sacrifice, or is it the Christine gets out and he goes, oh well, I just definitely is played as a sacrifice in the later adaptations, but in terms of the actual novel it's sort of he accepts defeat. Yeah, so much these switches size, but he's just like all right, yeah, I don't know about that. Yes, that's how it relates to the fan of do we see this relating to cells our and Walter in masquerade at all? Not really right. Do we find them sympathetic? I didn't really. Fort was obviously meant to be sympathetic that he doesn't necessarily have to sacrifice himself and sells art. Doesn't repent at all. So I think like something I'm getting at with all of this is that I think sells our clicks. I was Aur is clearly the gothic villain. He's a hundred percent Gothic villain. He's the one and the machinations and the plotting and the mustache twilling and he does the big Gothic, you know, monolog and the letters with the multiple exclamation marks and everything. He is clearly a parody of the gothic villain. But he's pitted against Walter, who's the sympathetic ghost. So what I'm probing at is like is project pitting the gothic villain and the hero of sensibility or the romantic archetype against each other, and I think that definitely works for cells are, but I don't know if it works for Walter. I could see it, I would probably argue as not done very well, like what does, more of a victim than a hero, and to until the end when he just becomes the leg rebel outlaws, wash buckling sort of villain. But yeah, he doesn't have to sacrifice anything or anything like that. So I don't know if it really fits, but I think there's something there. In his introduction to the two thousand and twelve Oxford University press edition, a fan of the opera the OCT similarly locates the fandom in a series of disfigured Gothic villains, including hugoes, quasi murder and Gwynplaine. Do you...

...know Gwynplaine? Not at all. He's from his one thousand eight hundred and sixty one novel, the man who laughs. He's literally just the joker. He's a guy who at his face cut into a permanent smile and is a weird clown who goes around harassing people. Yeah, so quasi murder and Gwynplaine, frank and science, CREATURE MISSED TO HIDE, and Dracula, who will talk about more later, as well as characters in Pos mask of the red death, the Pitt and the pendulum and the fall of the House of Rusha. I think this is interesting because, yes, he's the fantom, is a representation of all these creatures, but he's also both Frankenstein and the creature. Right, he's the man scientist and the ugly outcast. He's Jackal and hide in one, I guess, Jeckel and hide, our jacqueline hide in one, but at once. Yeah, yeah, no, wonder he's having so much trouble. So there's something going on there. I mean we're talking about blending GOTHIC villains and heroes of sensibility. Maybe in that the Phantom blends the mad scientist with his monster. I guess Jacquelin hide is the go to archetype of that. But yes, as I was trying to get at, Jack will alt is ultimately able to get rid of hide. Yeah, and they're still represented as different consciousness within the same body, right, the different personalities. Yeah, I think that's something. Maybe maybe not original but maybe interesting. To do with the fan of the opera. There's cow. It also points out the characters in the fan of the opera also re enact scenes from Blue Beard, Don Juan and bed and the beast and trull be which, when we were discussing this before and we were saying, Oh, is it a parody? What is it? Is that this? Is it a rewriting? What the world we were looking for is pastiche. Fan The opera is a pastiche in the prepostmone sense. It's not critiquing any of this. It's not. There's no comment. It's literally just collecting all the Gothic influences from the last hundred, hundred, fifty years and ramming them all together, and the fan of the operas what comes out, yeah, like Spaghetti. The Slavic philosopher slave of j Jack similar argues the Phantom's final self sacrifice represents a final reversal whereby the agent previously identified as villains suddenly changes into a Dona, into a data, by means of his sacrifice, enabling the hero salvation. And Jaak notes that this is the same reversal which characterizes pop culture villains from the ambiguous status of the hitchcock and villain up to Darth vader in the Star Wars trilogy and who, one should not forget, also wears a mask concealing a distorted, a morphous face and plays the role of the annual father. So I found the opera darth vader. I think that's that's a pretty good take off his mask. Yeah, Harrison, but also showing the perseverance of these archetypes into star wars, and we talked about Batman as well. So they're they're continuing in relation to the theatrical development of the GOTHIC Hero. In a note, one thousand eight hundred and twelve collection, a series of plays in which it is attempted to delineate the stronger passions of the mind, which contains two gothic plays, are up and the dream notes that when a painter wishes to give intelligence and expression to a face, he does not make his lightshit upon the under part of his chin, the nostrils and the undercoade curve of the eyebrows, turning of course, all the shadows upwards. He does the very reverse of all this, that the eye may look hollow and dark under the shade of its brow, that the shadow of the nose may shorten the upper lip and give a greater character of self to the mouth, and that any fullness of the under Chin may be the better concealed from this disposition of the light. In our theaters, whenever an actor whose features are not particularly sharp and pointed comes under the front of the stage and turns his facefully to the audience, every feature immediately becomes shortened and snub and less capable of any expression, unless it be of the ludicrous kind. Right. So this is describing how people up here on the stage under, you know, lights coming from above. It's saying there's something like a particular Gothic atmosphere to drama itself. And I also thought this was interesting because that description there, the shadow of the nose may short in the upper lip and give great character of sense to the mouth, like this is sort of describing the Phantom's face. I wonder if there's something going on there where his distortions are meant to be a representation of no looking up at someone on the stage to be actually get a description of the mask in masquerade. Yeah, it's just like a white mask. Right, HMM, but this leads us to another common trope of Gothic villains, particularly later ones, which is physical disfigurement. They all townsend notes in his two thousand nineteen chapter on the Gothic and the question of ethics, otherness, alterity and violence, examples of radical alterity in and off the face proliferate through Gothic text of the twenty and twenty one centuries. Yeah, and this is certainly true of the Phantom, whose faces described as having two big black holes set in a dead man's skull, with nasty yellow skin stretched across his bones like a drumhead and his nose disturbingly absent. Sounds and connects this depiction to the weird countenances in a tranter, Frankenstein and Poe. I'm not sure about that, because his man friend, we're talking about Walpole's man, food from a Tranto. Is he deformed it all? No, he's just a ducal. Obviously he's deformed of spirit right his this incentuous kidnapping me has gonna say? But he definitely say it in Frankenstein and Poe and stuff. So I get what they're saying there, but I wasn't sure because they specifically call out a Tranto and I'm like, I don't think there's any actual disfigurement. I mean, what's his name? FALSO was saying how handsome early Gothic villains were, anxiety of redcliff and Lewis's for as now they're are pretty sexy. So that's sort of interesting in that they don't start off like...

...that and then get sexy in their Byron eyes and they're already sexy when they're just filains. Yeah, they're just bad dudes who look nice. Beware. Well, it's literally lock up your daughters, but also that's what they're trying to do. So I don't know if two wrongs Bank of right. Also, on the note of the nose, which is sort of the main point of Eric's disfigurement in the Phantom, that his whole point where he has to hideways. He's got no nos, he he looks like a skull. So yes, in his one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine article grimaces of the real or when the fallus appears, this is this is you jok again. He explores the usefulness of interpreting high and low culture in comparison to each other through an analysis of the Phantom of the opera, which he calls undoubtedly mass cultures central appreciation. At this is right at the height of the musical success. So he's sort of doing what we were saying fan of the opera and masquerade do. He's examining the flattening of high and low culture, this postmon and flattening, through an analysis a fan of the opera, which is a pop treatment of high culture, arguing from a Lakanian psychoanalytic perspective that the FANDOM's noseless face, which repulses even his own mother, was an embodiment of her own penis envy due to its lack of an excessive felic protuberates. Yes, before I thought you'd written there, I was about to say that all that he's taking the Piss. Yeah. Well, the thing is, though, I think he is taking the PISS. Yeah, this is the sort of thing Jujak would do, for just throw this out there. Like. Yeah, Fred said the nose is a Dick. What do you think? Can't argue with me? Freud said it. Yes, you can, yes, we can do jack. Yeah. So, bringing this idea of disfigurement back to Pratchett in his two thousand and twenty article about Pratchett's thought experiments about the body, which we talked about in relation to unseen academicals in the first ever episode. Peter Hadj Dei similarly observes that the gothic tradition always use people with artificial implants as villains. There is with Hook hands or wooden legs only exceptionally appearing as lovable characters, and he primarily connects this to Pratchett's eagles, who were going to talk about more next episode, because they first appear in masquerade. But I think it's perhaps more relevant to masquerade, especially in terms of the gothic tradition. Pratchett subverts this trope of the disfigured Villad by having the nun disfigured cells a lot turn out to be the rain villain, while the physically awkward wolter of clinge is the sympathetic and autoramately heroic good ghost. Yeah enough, so I see this. But the problem here is, like Walters not actually disfigured right. He's just sort of hunched. He's not. I don't think he's yet deformed at all. It just seniable. MMM. And the other thing is that he sheds his limp and his hunch when he becomes heroic, when he puts on the mask and becomes the Ghost, he stands upright and it's very confident. So this is actually sort of reinforcing the trope that you are like you can't be heroic and hunched. Yeah, I like to Quasimodo. That's a good point. I really wish I'd read hunchback of noxure army. It's so long, though. I'm going off the movie people. But he saves night in that he tells, but also that's the Disney one, so I can't credit it. Yeah, sturboard notes when there's a distabled character in a story, that character will usually end up cured or killed or dead, with the expectation being that such a character can be interesting and propelled the plot and can have an impact on the other characters and on the audience, but the character cannot simply carry on being disabled. So yeah, this is the idea that Walter is cured at the end of masquerade and agnes is sort of also deformed, or at least cratchures portraying her as right. She is overweight, she's obest to the point where she doesn't fit in with society. And then, as we mentioned at the end, Grannie compliments her on losing weight, so she's also part of this troupe. So these ideas are definitely connected. In masquerade, yeah, that phobicause hell. So in the original fan of the opera he's not cured. He's killed, although in on a metal level, right the fedroom has sort of been cured of his ugliness. As time has gone on and as the story has been adapted, as we're about to talk about. So stonefeld notes in the stage version, the original stage version of the fan of opera, the fans face is intensely deformed and she argues that we need his face to be disgusting for us to be able to let him be a murderer with whom we sympathize, as she sort of going against this. He wouldn't be sympathetic if he was the original gothic villain who was just murdering people and was a Douchebag, but because his this Frankenstein's creature esque outcast, we do sort of sympathize him and it gives him a bit of motivation for his bad behavior. Huh? She says we need his face to be disgusting for us to week tenderly at his self sacrifice, but also, of course, he can't be with Christine at the end of the book. Are we buying this? I think we're we're budding against. Is The we don't know if the fandom really sacrifices himself. Yeah, but this is the Frankenstein thing right. The reason why the creature is seen as a sympathetic character because he yeah, he as I said earlier, he murders a child and and everyone else. I think it's interesting because he is initially a benevolent creature. It's after the society spurns Erem, goes batchit crazy, goes after revenge, and yet it kills a child. So it's I think, yes, it's in his character, but I think it's more common true from Shelley on, what happens if you are ostracized by society, abandoned by everyone, and you know, you do get more of that with the creature because you get the whole scene of him living with the delacies and being wilderness and all of that. But in Famtom of the opera we do get his backstory, that he was shunned by his mother. MMM, so the whole thing with Frankenstein being the rejection of the father and it's the metaphor for,...

...you know, the fall of Adam and even all of that. Yep, in the Famti of the opera we get. Well, he was so ugly not even his mother could love him. I mean that's it with Frankenstein, isn't it? It's like he was so ugly his creator was like out of my house. Yeah, so there is an indictment on herating. It is a nurture rather than nature argument in both these books. Part of it. Yes, a Sur faut also notes, however, the FANDOM's appearance was greatly softened, along with his demeanor, during his transition from stage to screen, from theater to film. So we're going to look at some of the fan of the opera film adaptations now, because I've spent the last week watching them all. Have you seen any of these? Only a couple of youtube videos I watched. I was like this is some busy yeah, yeah, I don't recommend many, if any, of them, but yeah, so the sympathetic turn of both the fandom and the gothic villain is reflected in his film adaptations, which begin, I mean there's earlier French ones and I think there's some lost films. But as far as the English popular tradition, there's the silent film from one thousand nine hundred and twenty five, which is the big famous one. But so in that one he's got he's got a weird mask with this weird paper flap over the mouth. That's very strange. But then he rips that off and he sort of this you know, giant headed Zombie Looking motherfucker, not my type. Yeah, I mean here he's a very he's a monster. He's portrayed as this weird he's Valdemort. Yeah, so this film was banned in all years after its release for being too horrifying for general distribution. And now we have the human said Topid. We know, we have the human sentiped. I mean this is a big thing. I actually wrote about this in the island of Dr Moreau, because that was one of the last films ever banned because of not the actual horror element but the animal dissections and things in a good reason. Yeah, so this film was banned for being horrifying, but also we already see this Symbi day change because, like this is a silent film that comes up with the dialog in the title cards in between the scenes, and one of the things the FAMOM says that sits on the screen is by him to change. Your love will redeem me. Put the owners on the woman, right. But this is again the Frienkenstein thing, is I need a wife to go away and be peaceful. So that's where we're starting. Then you get the universal film from one thousand nine hundred and forty three. So in he's in he's mask form I've got. He looks very much like the Green Hornet, yeah, which was around at the same time in the s. So he's sort of taking on that, you know, masked hero Zoro thing, like the early pops with Batman and thing. He's represented as a heroic type in his mask rather than a phantom type. And then, yeah, so you take the mask off, the side of his face is bird. He's hot there though, right like he's not my type, but it he's not that ugly. If Nick Got Burnt that way tomorrow, I hope he doesn't. I wouldn't care. This one, though, is relevant to masquerade in this movie. The reason why the fanom of the opera is disfigured is but even though with this one it's more of a horror depiction, that I do think you see at least aesthetically reference throughout later horror stuff, here we get a definitive self sacrifice, because this film ends very abruptly by the Phantom is watching the performance of the play, which in this is about journ of arc rather the faust, and sees that the Chandelier is going to fall on Christine. So he stands up in the audience and throws off his mask and runs onto the stage and pushes her out of the way and he gets squashed and it zooms up on his face and that's the end of the film. Guy Does one good thing at the end and suddenly he's a hero. Right, but that's the logic company. Yeah right, you get kicked out of one house, you kill a child, you really one of it doesn't take much. Yeah, he's sort of less disfigured, but more disfigured. Yeah, yeah, wouldn't know, thank you, but he's try. I mean he should be allowed in society. He should be allowed in society. Then we're jumping to the most recent adaptation of the Phantom of the opera, before masquerade comes out is maybe the TV film from one thousand nine hundred and Ninety, starring Charles Dance as the fan of junior. Who Charles Dances? Of course I know who shots dances. WHOSE CHARLES DANCE? He's an actor. Is a British actor. What am I missing here there? Who does he play? Obviously Tie, when lanaster? That's how I's gone for. Yeah, he's time and last. He's also that guy in the hears this spandex and he's a meme. Where's the SPANDEX? And he's a mean. He does a dancy thing. SPEDEX, Dancy. mean. Hang on here, it is Taiwan. Let us to shake an ASS. I have seen this, but I don't know what it is from. I was from Lleg into house. Okay, Oh, yes, he's Thai. When lanister? So that stars him as a rather slave. Yeah, he's hot. I didn't actually watch this one. Looks pretty good in the the fandom mask there, and I wasn't actually able to find a picture of him without the mask without watching the film, although, as I have pointed out, very slipknot looking again. Yeah, my big takeaway from all of this is that are the guitarists from slip knot based his mask on fan of the opera and that gives it full horror credibility. So he's looking a bit more slave in this one, although this version of the fan of the opera is actually adapted from Arthur Koppett's book of his stage musical, which debut in nine ninete apparently a bok version in nineteen ninety, because it's foot TV movie comes out in I think the TV movie came out before the stage way. I'm not really sure on the timeline on this one. But in this version, again, along with him looking more handsome, we have the flip where it's the fan of his mother who is the only one who accepts him rather than rejects him. That's creepy as somehow, though,...

...isn't it? Well, this is Jason Vohe's mother from Friday the thirteen or so. Who the other guitarists from Slip Knot, I've just realized, based his mask off the Jason Voorhees character. So the guitarists of slip knot are Jason Voorhees and the Fano of the opera. They're do with the hockey mask. Okay, you know the guy with the hockey mask in the Ma Chitty it's ringing bells right. So this is your big slasher icons are Michael Myers from Halloween, Freddy Kruger, who were going to get to in a second, and Jason Vohies, who's the hockey mask guy, but in the original Friday the thirteen film he's not in it, the hockey mask guy. The story of the thirteen is that there was a kid who's was disfigured, deformed, right, and he was at a school camp and everyone was bullying him and mean to him and he was drowning in the lake and all the counselors like stood and laughed at him rather than trying to help him. And then there's rumors that well, he came back and started murdering everyone at the count rank and start. Yes, right, but it turned out to be in the twist of the first movie is it's not him, it's his mother who is taking her revenge on the council's fair enough, honestly, but then in later films it's just him. He comes out the lake and he's a Zombie and then he goes to space. I guess this is where project gets MRS plane frump right in masquerade. It's his mother who's Nice Swim. So I think Pratchett is, yeah, maybe basing his version less off the weber musical or maybe off this musical or this TV movie, at least in that aspect. That was a TV movie. The most recent film film or significant film adaptation of Fan of the opera before masquary came out was from a year earlier, from one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine. And this is a slusher adaptation of Fan of the Opera starring Robert England, Fred Krueger himself, which we've got the posters there from nightmare of ELM street next to the Phantom of the opera poster. They're very much going for the fandom. Is Freddy Kruy? Yeah, okay, because Freddy Kruegis whole thing. I got to give you slasher law now. Freddy Krugis whole thing is that he was a pedophile who the parents of the town banded to get that and burnt to death right. They led his house on fire with him inside. But then he comes back as a ghost and haunts people in their dreams. But that's why his face is like that, because it's like scarring from being burned, but it was a pedophile. So why what? He's a bad guy. Oh, easy, just a bad guy. Yeah, I don't like him. The point I'm making there is you can see that they're really just trying to ape the whole Freddy Krueger then in essentially putting Freddy Krueger on the poster for the fan of the opera. This is the one movie, this is the one after adaptation, of all these that I recommend because it's sick, okay, and it's a it's a Faustian thing as well, because it's about a lady who finds his dumb one triumphant being and recites it and then get sent back in time and then she ends up inspiring the whole thing. This is the Freddy Krueger one. Yeah, this is the Freddy crude one, because the story here is that Eric, the the fan of the opera, sold his soul to a devil to get the Don Juan Triumphant Score. So it's a whole Faustian story. He does have a fake no is that falls off. He also comes down and Zoro some guys in an alley way, which we get in masquerade as well. You can't really see, but easy like stitches, he's face back together and he's like falling apart, because that's the curse of the the demon and stuff. Anyway, this movie is cool, but that's sort of the exception to the to the train. Otherwise we've seen a progression of him getting more and more handsome, more and more sympathetic, more and more heroic, until we get to the two thousand and four Joel Schumacher adaptation of the Andrew Laid Webber play which, as you mentioned, stars Gerard Butler. This is three years before three hundred. This seems more beauty and the Beastie, doesn't it very much. So you got the rows, obviously. Oh yeah, and Lloyd Drilo. Webber claims he cast your I but last, since he fit his idea of the Phantom of somebody with an edge, I'm who represented the sort of dangerous man who has a rough rock and roll sensibility. So Byron, so Byron, right, with Schumacher describing the two suitors as a Stud Muffin. That's well, he's the pretty boy and this insane charismetic madman who has this incredible sexual pull on her, who he described as every dad's nightmare come true Byron. So here you know the Phantom is being cast in portrayed specifically as a sexually enticing character. Right, he's not just sympathetic, he's meant to be attractive and alluring. Yeah, we'd both Bang Him, wouldn't we? Oh, I don't know. He's very annoying in the movie. He doesn't have to talk during I don't know, I'd let him kick me into a pit. That's three hundred. But also he takes a wears a couple of masks and you see here the second one, the black mask, varies are there's are veries are this looks like Antonio Vandera's. HMM. You can see he's face is fine. He's face is fine, he's faces faces fine there. And then somehow, when he pulls off this mask off, his face is disfigured and he's missing clumps of hair at everything. This movie is terrible and the sturn field notes the mild makeup and the explanation for all the magic tricks in the shoemaker adaptation helps render the Phantom entirely human. He is no longer an angel or a ghoster or monster or even a magician. He is a slight be disfigured man with a sad past. Byron, literally Byron, literally fucking Byron. His leg was...

...a bit shotty. Folks, Barrow was disfigured. Come on, yeah, yeah, now we're talking. He had a club leg. Hmmm, a stone felt observes. Critic took note of the Phantom's softened depiction. HMM, with one film review of pointing out that the fantoms to form and he looked like I could be solved with just a little clearer sill. Another noted that when the mass comes off, he's simply not ugly enough. But, as stifelt notes, this makeup choice renders the phantom a viable choice for Christine, at least in theory. Further arguing that the final factor in the film version, as compared to the stage version, the renders the phantom of more human, more viable candidate for Christine's love. Is a feature that both Lloyd weather and Schumacher repeatedly played up in the interviews and discussions of the film, which was the youth of the cast, the shoemaker saying that he believed the story only worked if it was understood as Christine's sexual awakening because of her attraction to the Phantom. So they are explicitly portraying him as more of a temptress rather than a villain. He's not someone who kidnaps a lady, realizes the wrongs of these ways and does the good deed and redeed. He was always the sexy ad cast. Yeah, yeah, by Roning, Byron. Didn't invite Claire Claim on over, she sent him a letter. Right. So all this adds up to me, because I don't think there's something here in that Walter plinges the sexy bar and a care, because he's not hon he's not attractive. I thought we were going somewhere with like Agnes. Might end up with him. I guess she's sort of attracted to the Phantom. She enjoys the attention and from that, I guess maybe, but I don't think it's really there. No, like Salazar is definitely the gothic villain. Enough. Pratchet quite hits this. No, I don't know that. Yeah, but as far as the fan of of the opera itself, right on top of it being a Pastiche, I'm a combination of the gothic villain and the the sympathetic romantic or then, in its own adaptation, follows that trend off from faust to Don Juan Triumphant, right, the success of the Webber musical and the shoemaker film and the image of the Phantom of the opera that we have in culture today as this sexy hunk that is don Juan Triumphant. Yeah, not. Did I do it? Yeah, you did it, but job did it. He did. Thank you. Someone who didn't take this transition too well was Terry Pratchett himself. revealed in an interview with science fiction weekly from the year two thousand, that masquerade started in a state of quiet fury at Andreloid Webber, explaining that the Phantom killed innocent people who's only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now, according to Weber's musical, this is okay as long as you look good in a mask and a tucks and in the engine. Give it all up for love. I don't think, sir. I don't think that's the case. You can't just dismiss the fact that people got killed. So I read the original work and I saw the movie, which the Andrew Laid Webber Film Hasn't been done there. So I don't know which movies talking about. I think maybe the TV movie with manister in it, and he says he knew there was a story there. So projets mad at him. But also I think there is some legitimacy to he is engaging with this transition in masquerade. He is pitting. He is pitting the original gothic villain against what it's become in masquerade, even if I don't think he quiet taps into the romantic aspect as much. Is this a good place to talk about Grebo? Sure, because we've established that the Phantom of the opera is Byronic. He said gray bars Byronic, but he's not by ironic. He's a bit more byronic here in the way. I said at the startled episode about the way nanny and granny are talking about him, that he's is he a narrow aristocratic Nice Guy, or is it just an Asshole Byronic here right now? The answer was both. Right. Yeah, yeah, I think the joke there is that, you know, aristocrats are assholes. Yeah, but also there's that tradition of them being like Suave, sexy dudes, as Gribo is. But he's also an asshole because there's a cat but to give you the description of Gribo that granny weather wax gives in masquerade green bow fully clothes still managed to communicate the nakedness beneath the associate mustache. But longside burns and the tussled black hair combined with the well developed muscles to give the impression of the more lash kind of buccaneer or a romantic poet who'd given up on the opium and tried red meat instead. He had a scar running across his face and a black patch. Now we're across the eye, so we've got a bit of the Gothic disfigurement coming in there. And when he smiled he exuded an easy air of under stilled, excitingly dangerous, less sibousness. He could swagger while asleep. Gribo could in fact commit sexual harassment simply by sitting very quietly in the next room. That's a Byron move. Yeah, so is this not byronic? Yeah, this is more byronic than the last time we saw a Greebo. Absolutely, I guess. Yeah, he's still missing the sulkiness. Yeah, and it's not like fully developed. It's more the esthetic. It's the esthetic, the Baronic cure he can commit sexual harassment by being in the next room, but he's not a developed figure. That's kind of my point. Is The baronic curo now is just like, Oh, yeah, you do the Bingo of the esthetic rather than the examination of the characterization and what elements go into it. Yeah, he's missing the sentimentality and the immotional depth. This is jared Butler right. would be cast jared Butler as grouper? Yeah, he is a Catman. Yeah, that works. So the Phantom's transition from murderous monster to Byronic love interest is also reminiscent of the modern transition of vampires, which we're going to talk about next episode. But I do want to tease a quick connection to the fantom of the opera, which also suggests some kind of logic to...

...protects progressions throughout the witches series, right, ignoring equal rights, which is sort of its own thing. Weird sisters, we've got Shakespeare and the theater. I guess there's fairy tales in there as well, but the theater, through the opera, through the vampires. I think there is a progression that mirrors the cultural progression as well throughout this series. But going back to Gothic drama. Right. The Fan of the opera is also represents the vampire archetype, both in the book and the One Thousand Nine hundred and twenty five silent film. He sleeps in the coffin and Christine confesses that she has never seen him in daylight. There's also a thing all through CARPA juggum where Pratchett describes the vampires as wearing opera dress, of course, which is their black cloaks and things. And you also have in masquerade, not being to Trtus, considering whether the ghost possibly turned into a bat and flew away when grubery disappears. Sorry, project is hinting at this connection between Vampires and fan of the opera, but I haven't actually found that many scholar or popular references to it, although I think the family of the opera might have as much to do with Vampire portrayals as Dracula. I mean, I guess this is also the fan of the opera is a Pastigi. So how much is the fan of the opera playing off the THEATER ADAPTATIONS OF DRACULA ITSELF? But in terms of the Broody, byronic vampire that's sort of creeping into the fandom of the opera before it gets established in the vampire tradition, I think. Yeah. Oh, and another connection to the vampires is because I've been going through in preparation for COPPA jugg making this big table of all the different characteristics at shop and all these vampire novels. It's going to be a fun time, fun couple episodes in your future. But something one trope of put is getting shot and disappearant. Okay, so, like you know, they think they've shot someone and they go and check and they've vanished. That is something that happens in vampire stuff all the time and it's something that happens to the fan of the opera. I don't know if that first happens, but it happens earlier in Varney. The Vampire, which is sort of the first fampire thing after buying it happens in that. So I think this is a troupe of pulps at the time, but it doesn't appear in any other vampire things until the fanom of the opera and now it has sort of become a trope of vampire affection. So I wonder how much that was established by fan of the opera and these theatrical plays. But yeah, we'll talk more about that next episode. We think that's everything I've got. Will be back next time to talk about CARPA juggle by and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. They will be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign on up to our patroon page and get all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any burnus episodes or specials that we end up doing. If you're after more of us. Alice Post her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with a fully reference to footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing out takes, which I guess I already asked you if you've seen. Not For as I was going to take this as an opportunity to ask what your favorite opera was, and I can see what you've put, I left it in there doing I wanted you that do it. Let's pretend I didn't latening. What's yours? Josh a space. Yeah, clever. What did you say last week that set me off? Oh, the PHANTO OP chopper, hip hop ERRA. WHO's that it? Yeah, they're right. That's the correct response. Really. Yeah, I'm editing it. You'd last I like here three and a half minutes. Thought it was funny. You don't are you did? Let's gonna gain in the mornings for all. Wow, there's a weird soggy sound coming through my microphone. tother to you or in the recording. I just want to point out that that is Pretchett, the cat, grooming himself furiously on the other side of my desk. I can't hear it, but I'm so glad he's doing that. Good for him. I love you, Pretchett.

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