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6 – Maskerade

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We discuss Maskerade, exploring the origins triple goddess, the many guises of The Phantom of the Opera,distinctions between high and low culture, the gentrification of opera, masks, physical appearances, the archetype of the Gothic Villain and its theatrical transformation into a Romantic Hero of Sensibility and more!

Episode Transcripts and Bibliographies: https://monash.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/

Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

A Doctor Prometheus podcast.

Before the episode starts, I just wantto take another moment to think our new Patrio, an Gabriel thanks for yoursupport and also our earlier pate on Dan, who send us a very nice andencouraging email. This week. Much appreciated FOTO would like to helpsupport unsaying, academicals and allison myself, as well as gettingbonus. Episodes like the recent one. We did on NEL GAMINS mids of an extremeand the same man. Series as well as all episodes in advance were running a bitbehind schedule at the moment, but the first of the copper juggle ones, whichare probably going to be two parts, should be up there by the end of themonth and you get at first by signing up at Patrico, Dr or Matheus Pod,thanks again guys all right. So I'm Josh and I'm Alice,and we are the unseen academicals. Still we continued to be for unseen andAcademical, and today we are looking at the eighteenth disorbed and the fifth,which is novel masquerade, were in Granny, wether, ax and any or ventureto the big city of Uncle More Hawk to recruit the multi faceted singing,which agnes knit into their coven following MC grat departure and findthemselves getting caught up in a series of ghostly crimes and themelodramatic nonsensical world of opera. Have I been waiting three weeks to dothat? Oh Yeah Yeah and we're going to use the book to explore ideas of thetriple goddess, the fan of the opera and it's many guises distinctionsbetween high and low culture, masks and physical appearances, as well as thearchetype of the gothic villain and its theatrical transformation into aromantic hero of sensibility. But First Alice in honor of the rupas drag race.Recap podcast. Could you please name some combination of things you like andthings you did not want. You just got rid of the roles, because I can'tfollow them proved yourself in Tar. I have a feeling, I'm not going to gettwo things you like to do. I work really hard on this. The rolls thistime I really yeah. Okay, two things I liked I enjoyed Grebo, particularly andwe'll talk about this later because there's the scene where it's like, hecan't just be Grebo, which I've always said was a damn silly name for a cat.Well, he looks Aristocratic Nan. He began. He looks like a beautifulbrainless, bully grannie corrected her, aristocratic, repeated nanny, and thenshe goes same thing right. This is the BYRONIC hero in a nut shell and it wasabout a cat. So it was like all my favorite things right. I do have thislater, but you do recall whether I asked you in which is a broad whetheryou thought Greber was Byronic and you said no one at it is a trying to likedo stuff with it here and like Oh they're returning to it and that that'sfunny so they're engaging with that debate.So one thing you like to was grewer and you had a second one. You working, I doit's, not it's not a big one. I just really loved. I sat there and laughedand laughed when the I think it's an ogre. It's like! What's your what'syour role here and it's Ed eater and it's like either is an editor or is ahead eater and I just still fun funny. Oh No, I heard of you know: Yeah headhit, sorry, that's it yeah yeah, the head, hitter he's the he's, the trollWHO's, the body guard at Ro, it a pretty press yeah. I was funny coverunder Im. Yes, he thought me. The trolls are good. I also enjoyed likethere was a chorus of grown from the Corse. I enjoyed those Athens likethat's nothing, to write home about what didn't I like you ask yes, hang on.I also liked nanny and their trip to Ann Morpork, and I think otherwise Ididn't right because, yes, I the reason, I'm being so apprehentious is the thetext message you sent me last night. Was I hate this book very much? I threw it down and discuss it at that's what I know. I've read abad book when I have to throw it across the room when I'm done and when it's onthe tablet as well, it's less ole, yeah's satisfying, so all right so beokay. Let's go give you the I tetere. What didn't you like about mascarade?Are you just blanketing everything else, O o boring like us, insanely boringnothing. I thought that was new or interesting in terms of reading and Ithink like thinking about it after and putting the notes together and thethings that Pat prates trying to do with it. Okay, that makes itinteresting, but the book itself wasn't interesting or engaging to read theyweren't doing anything particularly new with the characters may be a little bitwith nanny, but even then it was the old stuff. Again I was bored the wholetime, I'm alright. Well, I give my my true things and- and I think I have acouple of things I don't like as well so I've broken the rules and I think wehave both similar and different takes on this book. I think, because I alsodo think this is a great book, but I think, maybe for for Simelar bitdifferent reasons will get into this. This will make more sense once Iexplain myself so the things I like, the first thing I like is Agnes. I likeAgnes, I think, she's a good character. I wish he was developed more both hereand in other books, but I think, as far as like you were saying, you wanted tosee the witches from Lords and, ladies, that were aspiring to be, which isactually taken under the wing, that's sort of what we get here. Yeah. I thinkI agree with you. It's just not...

...developed. Is it yeah? I think she isthe basis of a good character. I think she is a very interesting characterthat doesn't get used very well. So I, like I like her as a person less thanas a character, if that makes sense like it as a person that not as that,yes, the o thing I like you are all thepunts yeah. I think as much as this is a weaker is quare book. I think it'spretty fun the joke in it are funny and that's sort of the difference betweenlike one of my major complaints with this is it. It is a rehash of weirdsisters, both in what it's doing and a lot of the scenes. A lot of the jobswill get into this. I've been internally debating, which one of theseI like more weird sisters or were it sisters, masquerade because I thinkweird sisters like is ambitious in a way this book is not like. WeirdSisters is commenting about how Shakespeare changed culture like that,whereas this is just like is an opera silly. So that's where I think we're so I'msimilar with you. I don't think this is doing anything new. I think it'srehashing a life where were different, though, is I find this quite a light,not compelling but pleasant, read. I was never bored, I've never donebecause actually, I have read this book since we started this podcast. I've heard this book three tofour times because well, because I read it like just to bigin with when I wasgoing through the mall and prepareing it put together at then. I went andread between reading this book, the first time and when we had to preparethis episode, I went and read the entire Disco Series Jesus Christ. Wellthrough all your books, but you know I went through all those books and thenwent should I have to go back to mask rade, which was forty books ago, so Ihad to reread it then, and he and when I say every red, like I put them on atnight when I'm trying to go to sleep and listen to the Audio Book Right. Soit's not in terms of time Sumi. But I've been through the story twice andthen I think, just even between then when I started puting the episodetogether, it had been a while and I'd gone down. This rabbit hole with drakesand vampires and stuff for carpet. Juggler and- and I was like- I shouldprobably revisit mascarade again so I started putting out again when I wasgoing to sleep and I've drifted off in and out of it at various places. Sothat's why I say three, two four, but the entire time I've been happy to gowith it. It's not like I found which is abroad. I know which is a broad orweird sisters. Every time I've read it a real slug like reading. It is dull. Ihave to push myself through it. Yeah I'm happy to go through the story. It'sfun! It's entertaining. I find it's pace pretty. Well, I think Pratchett's.Writing is a lot stronger than in weird sisters, even if it's less ambitiousand as we said, I think it's quite funny, whereas we had to hold the wholeFirst Section of our weird sisters. Episode was about. We don't think thisbook's funny and here's a breakdown of why yeah we're both saying those jokesin this. So I think it's a lighter, easier, more compelling read, but thenat the end I just go well. I didn't get anything out of that yeah. I see whatyou mean. I think it was just kind of like story with funny jokes in it andthe story just wasn't taking me anywhere. The start was compelling whenthey were still in Long Kra and then the journey and the start of Agnes atthe opera. I was with it and that just lost me, I mean obviously you've had adifferent experience. For me, it works is just a basic mystery thing: it'slike a fun mystery rump. Maybe I just like didn't have the time like my brainwas like what are we doing? We have to other things to do come on yeah and I'mnot I'm not going back for this book. It didn't Bob me down the way. Weirdsisters has every time now I just going to say for the record. This book hasbobbed me down yes o before I would go to go to read it and not want to readit and then couldn't read anything else out of guilt, so I've just not readanything for and those are the worst books. So I'mvery sorry to inflict that upon you, especially after you know how much wewere into lots of. Ladies and having, as I said, gone through the wholediscord series. What I've become aware of is, I think, there's like three ofthe witches books would be my top ten discord: Double Okay Right, equalrights, which is a broad lords and, ladies three, at top ten to fifteen. Ido have a list, but it's by far the most uneven of the serieses. It goes upand down and up, but down, obviously other people, critics and things thingsthink weird sisters as great as well and as we'll see, there's people who,like this book and in carpet, jugs one of the best as well. So it's opinionson it are very varied, whereas having gone through the other ones, all thedeath books are great. All the watch books are pretty great. With a fewexceptions, all the wizard books are pretty bad, but they're also very small,as it's sort of a consistent quality, whereas I form with the witch is onethat's up and down and up and down like Lords, and ladies, is one of the best.This is one of the worst paper juggles, maybe in the middle of somewhere. Idon't know we'll see, but I have a strange relationship with mass gradeitself, because this is actually the book that got me back into TerryPratchett, okay. Well, when I was working like straight out of school ora bit after school, I went and did like six months of a graphic design courseand decided. That was not for me and dropped out, and I got a job working asa in a plastic recycling factory where I was just stacking bags of like paddedplastic, like I used to eight tons a day of just lifting these bags ofplastic. So I was just do a manual labor at this at this factory and Istarted listening o audio books. While I was doing it and that's eventuallywhere I I was like after a year that I was like I'm sick of lifting heavythings, I like to listen to books, I'm going to go to a literature degree, butin there I was like oh those just well...

...books, I like them, and then Idiscovered there was actually I thought I'd read the mold, but there was ahandful in the middle like from about it's about fifteen to twenty. I likefive books in the series that I hadn't read, so I found out all there's thesebooks. I am read from the series with mass grade: Copper Jungle in being twoof them, and I listened to them and I was like this is fun, so I got me backinto it. That's when I wasn't reading anything or was reading other thingswhere, as now, I'm reading everything and all the discere books, this isdefinitely a weaker entry, because yeah even I've said I've gone through itthree or four times just now. Even those experiences have been off anddown like. I was really excited to come back to this book. Having those findmemories of at the first time- and I read him when this is trash- this isgarbage, there's nothing to it and then, when I came back to it the second timeI'm like it's all right, it's not as bad as as I thought it was it's notgreat, but it's fine, it's pretty fun and then, like the last couple times,I've been like all there's bits. I like those bits I dot, so I really feel notreally necessary conflicted just all over the place with this book and I'dsay, that's a good summary of the book itself, all over the right. So that'stwo things I liked. I know because I still have finished the two things Ilike, because I wanted to. I wrote down a lot of the jokes that I thought wereprayest, as this is a funny book for L, that's so working so the best tricksthat I wrote down where when they go to meet Mr Girt Burger and grand he's toldhe's in the meeting, and she says how long is this meeting going to be andthey say he's an elongated meter I or O ones I saw common I like: Arethey going to do it? Yasala me O brilliant? They wend undershaft gets hanged. Theysay he was always very highly strung there's. Maybe my favorite joke in thewhole book is just calling the play miserable les. I just I love that yeah thatthese are very low. Brow jokes, aswe've established O it to I like they say the Chandelier is going to make acrash Indo. I like that. There's the reference to he's, got no nose andAgnes goes to ask. How does he smell? That's the joke that kills everyone inmulti, python yeah. So there's lots of these jokes and there will be otherones that come up as we go through, but constant word play and puns that I wasreally enjoying it feels like Terry Pratchett had all of these jokes aboutthe theater and the opera that he just was writing down in a book for yearsand nowhere to put them- and he goes- you know what I'm going to do it in aninterview with science fiction weekly from the year. Two Thousand Projectreveals that Hap Fan who worked for the Royal Opera House in London whosmuggled him behind the scenes for an hour where he discovered what an insaneworld opera is and from there the plot of mass grade unrolled in front of himcalled it. He had been saving up for years. I think he got stuck in to seean opera and was like this is what it all I like. It was a night weening. As for what I don't like, though, allthe fat Jenks Yeah, that's fair, the constant constant put downs of of Agnesand reminding you that she's large and her whole character. Her whole functionis defined by that she's meant to be unattractive, and we've discussed onthis podcast like this is a thing with prage there's the cooking lords andladies there's: What's a name in Ansin academicals, the kitchen, ladywho's, the main character, but it's always reminded of, but she's fat,though she's not pretty like Julliet. This is a constant thing with him, andhere it's just like it's grating, it's so much of it. Any time Agnes hasmentioned. There is a comment about how she's overweight and even if you wantto dismiss it as it's just a joke, or it was of the time or whatever it's soma. It is a lot yeah. So that really bothered me. I didn't like the House onfire thing could have done without that or could have done with it once at thestart, once at the end to have what his name say, I ad take the fire out, butyeah just getting that repeated all the time like granny weathervanes meant tobe the smartest most capable person in the whole book she's asking people thisweird pop sike question all the time. It's like what are you doing yeah I atvery annoying and my last thing that I really didn't like about this book. NoMagrat Yeah Ne me grant miss her no good yeah, I'm going to add. I alsodidn't like that nanny was being forced to spend all their money that justpissed me off. I don't know why the fat jokes also, but God damn leave nannyalone. She owned that, probably maybe we'll see. So. Yes, we have very mixedopinions about this, and so do the critics. It seems so in his pocketguide. Andrew M Butler gives mass grade a four out of five proclaim: Crochetback to form. After a bit of a rat, we said before how our opinions don'tnecessary, Lin up with bottle, but lars reading in the pocket. Guy Right, hewas very into think. You gave wed sisters a five out of five and saidthat wasn't, ladies as one of the weaker novels yeah, so he says back toform out of a bit of a Rut which, yes, if you like this book, I can saw to seethat the two preceding novels, being sole music and interesting timesinteresting times, is terrible. That's one of the five books that I think areworse than masquerade soul. Music, though I had memories of being not verystrong like when I saw that I, when I am maybe this is a return to form justthen e Di', a better mobile, constructed fun book, but coming gonethrough the mall sole music was way better than I remembered. So I don'tknow if I by that, but also notes. Quite how often reasonably recentdiscord novels are police Pacers on some level during this time. This istwo novels after the Second Watch book, men, arms and just before freed of clayand the Washer novels in are being the longest sub series of the disco ones. Ithink there's nine of them, so he...

...really gets into them. In the laterpart of the series- and this is sort of a police procedural in disguise round-it's a watch another without the watch yeah, so he's just noticing. Yeahprojects turn into the mystery and procedural genre there. Conversely,though, Sunday Times Review John Melmoth elate to the wonder, come on,he wrote a mixed review. Saying mass grade is not proces most considerablework by a considerable way, while lamenting that the disk is to snapcrackle and pop with magic, you couldn't throw a stick without hearingsome miracle or wonder or another, but now we're reduced to special effectsthat cost literally pounds. Oh, I think there's something to that. I meanproject does get away from the actual magic, as the series goes on but aswell discuss. I think there's actually something to this. The projes donedeliberately in not having magic feature in this book. There's all thestuff with the tea leaves and like she could tell the future and it was goingto be. She was having a nice beer like it's kind of there, but it's showinghow it's yeah, I don't know we'll get to it.Something I found frustrating or uncertified about mass grade is thatthere's no ghost or magic or fantasy stuff going on? I do think this is amissed opportunity. Like I said I want to procter to do more with the ghoststuff and weird sisters and here's a book tentatively about goes, but thereare no action which is like he's playing on the superstition thing right.That's another connection to the Shakespeare. Stuff is he's playing onthe superstitions of the theater and the family oper himself, but I thinkthere's a missed opportunity here for, like a haunted house style narrative,because the point of discord is like the belief contributes to what's in theworld right. If you got all this concentration of people in the OperaHouse, believing in all these superstitions and believing that it'shaunted to actually materialize those things and you've got these referencesto like the show must go on and like. Why isn't there an spirit of operaforcing them to finish the show that they have to break free from orsomething yeah and there's precedent for this in dis? Well, because that'swhat soul, music and moving pictures are about. Okay moving pictures aboutis about. I love crafty and spirit of cinema who falses everyone to act likethere in Hollywood and Sol. Music is about the spirit of rock and roll thatwon't let its person that's possessed like die. So this is something producedon before and I don't want him just to re hush it. But why does that happenthere? And then here it's like. I know your superstitions aren't real you'reall being silly. Let's be said, maybe that's the point like in this case.It's not, and they all think it is what that is the point, but it doesn't makesense like why. Why is the Opera House not work on those that logic yeahyou're right, it's funny, but also bad, that a one said that summary it's funny,but it's also kind of bad. Take melmoth continues yeah, he did. The richery had become a cross betweenMidwifry, housewifery and Homyo, the and which has preceded by Hedong,rather than turning the laws of nature upside down. That was always the caseright. This is that them sort of missing the point because he says ifthey go on at this rate, they will soon be indistinguishable from other elderly.Ladies who are pretty naturally good at deciding what makes people to. Butthat's the point from the start. I go back and listen to my other episode.That's been the whole point. Do you want to explain who melt with is justengaged? People don't understand how funny we are well it'll, come up later,when we talk about the gothic novel, but it's sort of towards the end of theromanticize ion of got a novel into the Gothic Revival. He wanders forever he'skind of like the wandering to it's a book. It's a book. Sorry, a significant, so made else has read it. I haven't itso long, but as much as we've complained aboutthe academic neglect ive of some of the other books in the witches series, thisone doesn't even get a Google skull entry and I don't know why that is.There has things that have been written about it, so maybe that's justsomething in the algorithm somewhere. But yes, there's no record there, butthere are lots of references to there's, probably more than something like equalrights or even logs of ladies maybe except all of them are just peoplementioning when they list off the books in the witcher series and they a theproces wicher series made up of TIR o o and masquerade, and then they put it inthe Bibliolater, don't actually sit or commented. So many references andarticles that I went through and research for this or that and nothingelse and the ones that are about it all just sort of rehash the same thing thatit's about identity and masks, and so there really isn't like a wide breadthor deep engagement with this book at all which maybe because it's a bad one,nothing. I was really struggling to find something to say about this book,because it's not really about anything and everything it's trying to do likeit's been done in weird sisters is difficult. I do think I've maybestumbled across a couple of things, but were I seeing the lead up to thisepisode to you like I'm having to make up things to say about mascarade, tofill out schedule? Not Not that lies or non factual things.Just I'm having an addin like we're about to do a whole section about thehistory of the triple goddess which I've been holding off putting in theother outlines, because they were too long, and then here I needed to Patitiout this whole history of which crafted to this episode, just because there'snot much going on yeah yeah, nor have I seen it mentioned anywhere and any ofthe fan of the opera scholarship that I've been through, including an c halls,two thousand and nine book Fantom...

Variation, which analyzes adaptationsof fan on with the opera for one thousand nine hundred and twenty fiveto the prison. Well, it missed one yeah, so it also includes books like popularthrough author Frigi forsight, one thousand nine hundred and ninety ninenovel, the Phantom of Manhattan, one thousand nine hundred and ninety fourgoose bumps book Fani of the Auditorium and the two thousand and seven eroticnovel unmasked by Collect Al. So this book's, like not above you, knowpopular Coltrain, but is missing what I assume at the time like this ismidnight is this is like peak diskar popularity, just isn't even botheringmentioning it. This happened very strange. I Thol Yeah, so we are goingto do a dive into the history of the triplegoddess, which is the premise for this novel and why it essentially or taxfaith. So yes, despite earlier declaring that the natural size of acoven is one and that which is only get together when they can't avoid it inwhich is abroad, MAS grade begins with now's realization that Magrat Garlick,where, as a sponge, though she was half the time, had been dead right about onething: three was a natural number for witches and that it was an oldsuperstition older than books. Older than writing and beliefs, like thatwere heavy weights on the rubber sheet of human experience tending to pullpeople into their orbits. This is a rehash of that water running down themountain metaphor, but his project and Simpson observe in the focal of diswell the idea of the triple God or states back almost as far as humancivilization itself, noting that the ancient Greeks and Romans spoke ofthree fates we held in their hands the thread of each person's life, yetClotho, who spun it on her distaff laceries, who measured it and in duetime that dreaded a tropos. She can't be turned aside, who snipped it withthat years of death. The one that is turned away has all this significanceand paintings because they always still paint her so tides, a showing, which isinteresting, Nice. But it's interesting like the reason she's kind of facingaway from you. Is that, because of the way fate works, you can't always see atall. You Know Oh yeah side boot, that's all you can see of the future yeah we discussed in the weird sistersepisode. The norse also believed in the three norms. I've got us as of desnepast President Future. That's what where I as you get the three from aspretent Simpson explain. However, the specific notion of the maiden motherand crone is only just over a hundred years old, the fates, the norns andother female trios and old methodes, including Shakespeare's weed sistersall traditionally being represented as the same age. Okay, they creditcambridge scholar, Jane Allen, Harrison with first sorting these Guiness's intothree categories in one thousand: Nine hundred and three one or threecategories through different age groups, in one thousand, nine hundred andeighty three being the maiden the mother and the third one she did notname so when Pratchett saying there's the maiden the mother and the other onehe's not just being coy he's referencing the origin of this idea.Cool these categories were not without president being based upon apatriarchal Indo European traditions that viewed sex as a process for energyto be transferred from women to men. So, as Gregory L Dexter explains in onethousand nine hundred ninety book, whence the goddess or whence theGoddesses Dexter explains the three stages saying that in the first age shewas a virgin and her powers were in the process of being stored right. Youruntapped energy potential energy. Similarly, in the alphabet of Benserthat we talked about with regard to Lilith in the which is a broad episode,the eponymous Prophet Declares Moist and sweet and invigorating are thejuices of a young woman, but those of an old woman are bitter as as gold,they sap your potency like a well whose waters were drawn out by the wind. Whatelse do men need from us? You want our energy to. Let me have something m deeply disturbing, and I guesstechnically all the people in the baths and the matrix that have been used asbatteries are virgins, because a family of a eeaste can being dudes can bevirgins. But I guess here we're talking about Lady Virgin, we're much morevaluable, yeah you're right. Why aren't they? The men already full of energythemselves? Good point else. Thank you. You've got the energy to expend if youget my meaning yes, so I also feel like someone would have pointed that out at some point o I now it's Funyral, it was part ofyou know the myth making that oppresses women, fucking yeah, so dexter explains the threestages saying that in the first stage the female goddess was a virgin and herpowers were in the process of being stored. In the second epoch, she wassaid to have released her stored power. She was fertile and she provided energyto males her. Most common role in this epoch was that of a matron. A housewiferight dexter notes that in a balanced equalitarian society, one might expectthat the old woman full of wisdom and experience would be highly value inpatriarchal Indo European societies in which women have little status. However,the old woman, the crone, was least respected when a woman had run down herbattery so to speak, and thus no longer had enough energy to give to others.She then became the antithesis of the young virgin who stored energy or ofthe matron who transmitted it. I mean this is still the case, like peoplewill tweet like empty e cottons at older women when they're like talkingabout stuff on twitter and saying your opinion is invalid, because you have noeggs, but I did. I did share the that tweet of the guy saying Telowie as boutten thirty and she use ninety seven...

...percent of her eggs. I then I went andgo good it because I got all scared. No, it's not looking good hay, I'm the one who who just turnedthirty one you're fine. So in that finally park of old age, afemale figure was viewed in one of two ways: She could be a nurturinggrandmother right, a wise old woman, but often, however, instead of beingvenerated for her wealth of knowledge, she was made an object of fear ordivision. The Count of point to the wise old woman was the fearsome witch,the latter of whom was considered a dissipator of energy and, as such, wasfeared. Right. We've talked about the prejudices against old women in yeesepisodes, whether a virgin or a mature. This is there the corn, whether they'vehad kids or their still virgins. They were depicted as barren creatures whowere said to use the energy of others to supplant their own wasted forces. So,whereas the young virgin represented potential energy, the age virginrepresent to the sterility, the barrenness of a woman who has neverborne children and who can never change her baron state and will thereforenever bear sons for the Patriarchy Antony. There's something in this, though. Aswe'll talk about next episode, I did think about cutting this triple got hispart, making it like combining it with the first part of capper juggling,because a copy jogand does deal with their triple goes thing as well,essentially their premises. What happens when graddy weatherwax goesaway had of the power hierarchy shift among the witches? So we will talkabout more of that there, but in that book it is implied that one of thereasons that granny weatherwax is so powerful is that she is a virgincurrent, so she's actually still full of energy and has never relinquishedthat. I do think that's tied up with some prejudices about the purity of YehRight, not having sex, but we will talk more about that when we get to cuppedyeah, so we are going to go into more of this in cover Dogon from now. Ithink, given that this is the the premise of mass grade. It's want to gothrough each of the stages and talk about how they apply to what's going onhere. So we're going to go in reverse order. I think because the crone is theone that is most relevant to Capacem. The Virgin is the one that's mostrelevant here in the recruiting of Agnes, I think so. As proche Simpsonexplained, the Foker of Discol, the other one was first or at least mistinfluentially defined as the corn by the English acculturated Alice deCrawley, who identified her with the Greek nature, got as Heceta writing inhis nine here. Twenty one novel Moon Child Hickory is the crone, a womanpassed all hope of Motherhood, her soul, black with envy and hatred of happiermortals a thing altogether of hell: Barron hideous and malicious. The Queenof death and evil witchcraft, but, conversely, crely declared theversionable unassailable fine and radiant, while the sublime perseverersented the woman in the fullness of life, for whose sake demeter cursed thefields that they brought forth. No more corn until hadis consented to restoreher to Earth for half the year. He's identified the crone with Hecko, butalso with Demiter, who we've talked about before, is the winter comingthrough when thing is destroying per seventy re bring yeah, so there'ssomething going on with the seasons there now you've mentioned thepersevereth a bunch, though I also want to take a second to point out here.That moonshade is the first song and I a made an seventh son of a simson album,which was based on Austin Scott Card, seven son of the seventh son, bringingit back around it s all in tion to connected for the mythos of in maidenwhose new album is a fucking garbage fire. Yes, so that's that's where theidea of the the actual label of the corn comes from Crawley and his ideaswere then perpetrated by the English poet Robert Graves. You Know RobertGraves much enough enough. You know I know of Robert Graves, but in here onethousand nine hundred and fivty eight investigation, the white goddess, whichsuggests a muse like mythology surrounding a white goddess of birth,love and death, which project cited on a number of occasions. So this is wherehe's sort of pulling it from graves, declares hect, sers, Henna andpersephone all death aspects of the trouble marine goddess, who were muchworshipped by witches help is I'm not really sure? Okay, I mean, I guess thethey're all the crone saying that that hecco cause so see yeah and he ottoother witch cards. I'm surprised the he peepy throw in there yeah she's tenyeah. What maybe maybe graves doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybethis book's very strange. I mean I called it in new investigation becauseI've got no idea what to call it, because it's sort of like it's a seriesof essays he's written trying to like get to the bottom of this triplegoddess myth. But it's not like him doing actual research, it's just himmeditating on it a I will get to the truth through poetry, so he'sessentially making it up. Yes, is what I gather yeah, but this is also throughCrawley and graces here. We're having two, I guess Crawley is not really anestablishment figure, but upper class men come in and in surprise. I likedand promote this female God, his figure so, but I also think that's interestingin that this idea that is then reappropriated into like new age,wicker stuff, the return to the nature Gods and everything essentially has itsroots in like a a famaly novel by as to CrawleyYeah. So it's another example of like we took last episode of the we weretalking about the claims of Elizabeth, the first Jesus and the similar co Warrior Queensand how all religions made up, and it's all based on these stories here. Wehave another example of what t is a...

...credible for a given value of credible,religious or spiritual movement in wicker stuff. That's essentially basedon like this guy coming in and writing a fantasy novel about all the stuff.You know things like Sito as another example of like modern religiousmovements being born out of fantasy, like we're sort of doing that artimitating life and yeah, so the crudens kind of prejudiced and and Granniedenies and Avoids Association with it right. She doesn't want to be labeled,a crown which is a nod to it, not having a name but also the prejudiced,yeah things against it. She doesn't want to come the cackling crowing likeBlack Alice, but she is yeah, so he will revisit the Chromo next episode.The mother role in projects cover is, of course, occupied by Nanyo yeahultimate mother, although this is, I don't know if we have much to say aboutthis one. It's sort of the least developed aspect of the triad, but asLorain Amazon writes in who two thousand and six Masters thesis which,which is which the mother role is naturally a sexual being. Yet, althoughnanny exuded sexuality in one sense, it is a safe sexuality and that isessentially spent. She hints out and talks about her numerous liasons, yetshe is never sexually active in the novel, their children's books, theclosest we get is the attraction of her to the unusual dwarf, Giame Cassanda,the world. Second Grace later your favorites and she argues that nanlytherefore, is also sexless, although with a saucy flavor project seeming tohave created a comen out of a spinster and over the hill harlot and a virginarguing. That project therefore appears to reinforce rather than rail, againstthe nose. Please, where British, cultural, Malu and left in which helives and rites. Not really sure about that is this is a master's thesis M,think Henderson's being a bit I kind of classic here and not giving them pratedas much credit. I think she's really taken that I'm going to argue. This isa a sexist thing, but she does like. Does none have sex? Well, I think thepoint is even her. Talking about it and making sexy jokes and saying sixtythings it's a children's book. They can't have a having like racy doggystyle. You know I mean I don't know if you want six scenes, but it's like youcould have something where you know they go to a cottage and there's a manleaving or something there's, none of that. It's all her talking of past excapoes. I reckon also there's some bits where she's, like I'm back at mycottage and now and will disturb me and I'm like Oh yeah, what you going to donow, nanny, I think, there's a bit of that in there, because I think she is agrandmother rather than a mother yeah. But in terms of the the energy cyclething like she is really crying in the crone stage of life rather than afertile mother. Yeah. There's something to this criticism that prasis notreally engaging with the sexuality of these women, because even Magrat whogets pregnant, doesn't know how sex works and like he's depicted as havingthe sexy. But I do think nanny is a more subversive figure than Anderson'sgiving her credit for, because yeah there's something just genuinelysubversive about making the old persan oppose woman, the the sex pot yeah, andI think she banged Casanare. I absolutely agree- Nanny- is getting it yeah. So we've got a pretty stableorder of the maiden mother and curing through the first couple of witchesbooks, but at the end of Lords and ladies, even before we get to macgraththe cover, there is a disruption of this order with all three of the whichhas been paid up right. We talked about this in the other episodes, but you gotMagrat with Barents Na is with casinae Grad its wards red gully. How Er asButler notes by this book Cassonade, is now nowhere to be seen. A Brig, colorCole has appeared in a couple of books without mentioning his past, since nordoes grady find the time to seek him out in the Unseen University whilevisiting the OPRA House. She is busy well, she actually does go and visithim and they reunite in the shepherd's crown. The final discordes acknowledgethis and they say we were busy, but Butler does have a point that I thinkthe upper house is established as across the road from the university orsomething so it's like she probably could have been like hey by the wayI'll give a guest lecture on feminism or whatever I meant to be doing a yeahshe's meant to be when you can do that, the publishing subplot she could havebeen like I'm going for one of my women studies classes. I just like that. You know she's busy.She had stuff on, but yeah the point there, where they'd all become mothersor in that paired couple zone and then just immediately that's ditch. We got ahard reset to the mad mother cor an order at the start of this book. Ithought was interesting, yeah be, but this is the implication there is that,with all the best will in the world, witching seems to be a single woman'sgame. Nanny is presumably a widow warder verse several times over andMagrat dance with Barante requires her to give up which craft entire andpretor himself admits as much in he r one thousand nine hundred and ninetynine British Folk Law Society, Lecture, Imaginary Worlds, real stories sayingMagrat has difficulty reconciling her jewel roles and although she arguesthat it is possible to commind motherhood and a career also agreesthat she has given up witchcraft after giving birth to her daughter in carpetAnglin and that from Lords and ladies arm Magrat generally ax is one of thewitches but seems to prefer avoiding the label saying she never reallyintended to come back to it. Since she's now got other things to do, maybea bit of part time aromatherapy or something but not serious, full timewitching, which was Simblin. It is, and it isn't I'm not like this is this getsaddressed, and this is what we'll go ing to in the next book. But she didchoose. I know, but I thought it ud be better if she stayed and was like theQueen and also which to a good mix. I agree: Publicity, you know, which is,would get some good publicity and we do...

...get a bit of a revisit of this in Cape,a man the shepherds crown, but yeah. It's never never quite resolved, but itis done on its Magrat term. She chooses motherhood and also just being a queenshe's like I got to run a kingdom. I don't have time to do this anymorerather than them saying. Well now, you've married this man, you can't bepart of our Covin. I do think there's a different take there. Yes, everyone canmake their own decisions unless you want to go, be an opera singer and thenyou'll look down upon until you accept the natural order. As for the Virginthere, which is the main point in this book with the recruiting of AgnesAnderson, also criticizes Prato, the portrayal of the Virgin saying that thetwo monarcha women, Magrat and Agnes can attract only a fool or a vampirewhich yes, secnes, becomes. The object of desire for a Vervin in compeersshe's, saying the only, which is that are attractive to men, are attracted toa fool and a monster, but the full is the kid M. I think that was the pointthere yeah agnes is vampire track is more complex, but we'll discuss thatacaie. Agnes is actually so it's a some version on it. She resists the vampirethe Vampire's, like Oh you're, hot she's, like what am I mean to beimpressed because you're a that PA, yes, but also, I think the joke is that Althis vampire who's meant to be into Bucksom. Winches finds his fat girlattractive. It's not great, oh no, okay, nevertheless, after being abandoned byMagrat, granny and nanny, consider agnes a more stable virgin prospect dueto her supposed unattractiveness, which seems to derive exclusively from herweight, which is something as we discuss PROC as an unknowing problemwith as Andersen more astutely observes Agnes's self definition, as the virginis defined by the male understanding of attractiveness. That includes the truth.That's that's like the cord that being fat is acquainted with not having sex,saying that this yeah and then she quotes from Maskrade, saying Agnes'slife unrolled in front of her. It didn't look as though it were going tohave many high points, but it did hold years and years of being capable andhaving a lovely personality and almost certainly help chocolate rather thansex, and while Agnes was not in a position to make a director comparisonand regardless of the fact that a bar of chocolate could be made to last allday did not seem a very fair exchange. Sex can be made to last all day. I alsocan't imagine anyone who'd be attracted to a busty, talented young woman, witha wonderful personality and great hair. That seems crazy, yeah. Yes, I think this is a prettypretty close minded on project. The part there oar on that notion, if greathere Anderson also points out that Agnes knit combines a first name, thatalludes to a Catholic seat were allegedly grew hair down to her feet inorder to cover her nakedness. So yes, in the book Agnes is known for HIV,Volumus and beautiful. Here I always wondered why we kept getting told Agnes,has good here and is this the reference here also virgins. I think I meant tohave good hair. Oh, is at a thing: yeah, it's a pensive thing but yeah, althoughI Anderson then says that her last name is refers to a lousy pest that infectsher in Agnes net, so hearit or as may be an allusion to knit with. I thinkshe might be reaching here in great elsewhere. Misgauge describes agnes asbright and talented in many ways her voice for one thing, that was her powerfinding its way out and, of course she has a wonderful personality, notingthat there's not much chance of her being disqualified. So, yes, there isthis idea that nanny and grandy one of the reasons they want her is she willnever have sex. So you will never leave that mean. That's just really mean okay,yeah, it's not great right. I think it was meant to be funny. We need to finda girl who can't ever have say yeah but also like we just talked about manynanny's, also fat, right, she's, a fat old woman who is the six part? Maybethat's how she got recruit. I don't know I don't know, and we can. No, yougot my grant who's all thin and stuff, but is meant to be. I went in to sortof describe his wife. What is a wet hen like a drip like her she's? Well, she'sa bit wet like she's, a bit soggy she's a bit sappy she's a bit damp she's,just a bit. Are you meeting wet people in your life like I've not met anyone?I could describe as Sokiti like her personality she's a bit she's a bitdreary, I guess okay, but him I'm not really sure out, she's, plucky anddreary. I don't know to what you want my students, I'm like. How could wefind this out and they would say search it up? What is a person if they are describedas a wet hand? Here we go first result refers to Prachin O. What is obed him?You get from English language usage, English top stack exchange to come abutte first result which looks like fancy. Google ances when questionedabout the phrase, terr explained that it's perfectly good British slang andis it be draggled, sad and useless person, probably not as useless as abig girl's blast there and better off than a lame duck. Ye Show me a picturewe it yeah. Similarly, in her analysis of thewitches in the guilty of Literati election can say, I notes that thewitches craft in produce books is embedded within domesticity with theircottages, representing them as maiden, mother and crone, which might makeprojet something of an essentialist pointing out his frequent focus ontheir physical appearance. So it's just someone else noticing this trend thereas well, though, I wonder how much of that is like, because this is a bookright. It's the fans who well it's like the album appearance representing thetrope like they meant to be stereotypes,...

...he's playing with that so yeah. He hasto start with the stereotyping order to something at it and then he said verst,but then he puts it back out. Was So yeah, I don't think it'd be too muchexcept one of the things I said that I didn't like was all the fat jokes andspecifically the amount of them in this book and as Emerson also observespreche seems to spend an inordinate amount of time. Reminding us that Agnesis overweight, which gets is something I took it to with as well. However, inher than a eighteen book projects, women which we talked about before inwith regards to equal rats, bias medium Ridet, Tansy Arena Roberts says thatalthough a masquerade makes her cranky that Magrat marriage has pushed her outof the narrative of the Lancre witches, it's hard not to be delighted about thearrival of Agnes who she calls one of proces, most interesting and nuance.Portrayals of a younger female protagonist and Roberts Defends Prech,its fat chaining, claiming that even when Fetra are flying around Agnesherself is never treated like a joke, which he says is an incredibly rarething in fantasy fiction, where fat women are rarely seen unless they arevillains, motherly, matrons or jolly service industry professionals, whichare all of cratchets. Other examples of Erweist and young fat women don't existat all in fantasy, novels yeah, because I was at m overweight in Lords andladies, which she described as yeah it she's big, because I was I was going tosay what she invented like for this. was that there's the time to the operarich is the fat lady o things at the end of the book I mean maybe he'sadopting that previously m interesting and while Robert States that, althoughshe has a soft spot for the line about how the ballerinas are crazed withhunger, she is uncomfortable with the characterization of thing girls in massgrade, saying that it would be nice to have a book that deals positively withfat female characters without judging and to writing them women as well.Nevertheless, Roberts concludes that she is impressed once again to see astory. This complex about the iterations of women, told by a maleauthor saying that Agnes might be the one who is blessed with a quote goodpersonality, but of the two Christine is the only one who behaves like a niceperson. Of course, Christine can afford to be nice because everything she everwants falls into her lap see nuance. Agnes is nice. Well she's. She hasperdita her in a monologue who does become an actual, fully fledgedcharacter in Cape Gender. So we will re visit fair in more detail there, but islike she's, always judging people right, she's, always criticizing them. Soshe's meant she's playing the role of the outwardly nice person that insideshe is be Bitchy, thin woman. I guess yeah, Okay Yeah, I don't know if Ifully buy it. I think that's where she's criticizing the nuance. I thinkthat sort of may be over simplifying it. I don't know. Is it new once think, she's saying that Agnes andChristina both flawed yeah, Christine Sucks and Agnes, is good like they'reboth? But I mean I don't think Pratchett's doing a positive portrayalof Christie like we're meant to side with Agnes on this one right, I thinkso, yes, and just to drive at all home when Agnes, like becomes like,hopefully realized self. At the end, when she returns to one Credo become awitch gives up her dreams. The first thing granny does is compliment her onhaving lost some weight, so there is some implication there in that selfrealization is associated with weight and conventional attractiveness. Yeah,Oh yeah, and this this ties in with another thing that I wasn't reallyhappy about in mass grade is that it said in the book that granny at leastrespected anyone's right to recreate themselves. She does not yeah, I mean,isn't the whole point that she doesn't like mgrate ing herself. She doesn'tlike Agnes going off to be an opera thing. She has to become the witch thatgranny wants her to be. She doesn't want ask to do yeah yeah. So I thinkthat's that's simple shit not aligning with the the characterization of grannyso far. She wants people to fit into how she wants them to be. Although thethe El Space Anotada in responsos quite say, as does tarry himself, respectpeople's rights to recreate themselves, pointing to an annotation of predateprevious musical novel soul, music, which introduces death's granddaughterSusan Sto Hallet, whose name project explains came from a phenomenon, he hadnoticed on signing tours of girls somewhere between the age of ten andeighteen, with names like Susan or Nikola metamorphized into girls withnames like Susie, Susie, Susie, susie yeah. These are all spelt different way.You Got Susie Suke spelt like Susie and the banches Susi, with a tea Zuz withthe zed and Niki Nicki, Nicki and Nicki. This doesn't work in audio. The different different vary spellingsof the name, and he says this is about the same time period as boys, withnames like Adrian and Robert, become boys with names like crash and frapabout Fred, not metaphrase, nor, I don't e, think I've met a crash, but this is fine by me, says: Pratchett,I'm merely chronicle the observation. I've always had a soft spot for peoplewho want to redesign their souls, which leads us to Pertater, who we alreadysort of brought up yeah. So that's that's the introductory discussion ofthe triple God us there and we will revisit that and see how those troopsend up resolving in capataine episode, but on the on the theme of, I guess,readvent or identity and the PRODITA. Specifically, we are going to talkabout the fantom of the opera, which that's great, is a parody of in caseyou went away, but there's a number of other influences going on e in this,and one of them is singing in the rain.

Have you seen this else? Are you awareof the plot of singing in the right, they're singing in the rain right?That's what I thought was well when I watched this film this afternoon. While I was putting the final toucheson this outline signor, it's pretty good, it's pretty funny, it's very cavy,but it is about the invention of films with sound okay and the the I'll showyou a scene. Okay, it's also it's singing in the rain, rather thansinging its official title is singing with an apostrophe which I thought waspretty offside for class, one thousand nine hundred and fifty yeah. So thepremise of the film is yes, someone invents the technology to are able toadd a sound to films and it's about how the studio, executives and actors, andever everyone react to that all right and I'll get to its significance inconnection to Mascaron. A second but day should have watched this sectionfrom early in the film. So there's a bit a full of people. They have justwatched a sad film. They all enjoyed and the stars of the film are going tocome out and make a presentation at the end yeah. So the film have just watchhis SAM. This is about twelve minutes into the film for people playing alongat home. An you, Tak Yo think yo response to the Royal Rascal. We havefun making it and we hope you had fun seeing it tonight, a n in public, so we'll just act otherthanks to a idee aid. After all, then my publickildare, better, if Dan made all the speeches for the team, why Lena you're,a beautiful woman audiences think you've got a voice to match the studiosgot to keep their stars from looking ridiculous at any cost. No one's gotthat much money. What's wrong with the way I told. What's, the big idea am Idone something so that is the big reveal of thepermits of the film is what happens when you're a movie star with a ShittyVoice, and suddenly you have to speak on screen. It is funny because nowwe're podcasting, it is entire. Relying on my voices on the other wayconveniently there we are both dropped at gorgeous. We are in very sexy yeah, so this is in terms of masquerade.This movie, then the premise is that they find another girl who has a nice voice, who doubt honeover the film right. So mass grade is a party and that she is Christine. Ithought they were just being Dix to agnes, but it's both sorts about thethe changing of the guard and stars and things, but then, like mass grades, arereverse thing. Where they're trying it's like with opera, you normally havethe fat lady, who isn't commercially attractive, singing and they're tryingto bring in no now we need attractive starts to me in these films. Well, I'veseen film to them, alluding to like musicals in the real world, so sort ofthe reverse of singing. In the rate, as we only just mentioned, this is a massgrade is a parody of the fan of the opera, and I think one of itsweaknesses is a incredibly straight parody of Anam of the opera, even moreso than weird sisters is of masquerade like the plot eats a pretty one fromone with the fan of the opera, but there are a lot of these otherallusions like that. Going on because fan of the opera you have that, likethe opposite again as Dorothy Anson, this is a different Anderson with an erather than o points out in there. Two Thousand and six pieces be witching,writing Norwegian, playright, Lugwaira Te, a comedy called masquerades, butwith a C rather than a Qoka in seventeen twenty four, which the Danishcompares a calm, Nelson and rider will ham Manson adapted into comedic operacalled mascate spelt with a chaos project spells in one thousand ninehundred and r y six fan of the offer comes out in nineteen o nine n tune tenten when its serialized and the novelizer just before a fino the UPPR,which apparently continues to be performed at the Royal Operating CarpenHagan. Apparently this is a pretty famous opera in, I guess European andDenmark, specifically it's about some lovers who meet in a mass grade andthey don't know each other's identity. So it's sort of like a Cinderella,thing, Cinderella, Romeo and Juliet. I guess but Edison says both the play andthe opera deal. Authomatics ly with the change of traditions, been somethingnew evolves in society and the conflict between generations and their differentviewpoints, which isn't a very helpful summary. I go broad but again seems tobe touching on the same things as singing in the rain as find the operaas mat great. So I think that's another influence, maybe waving in there that Idon't know about m. But yes, I don't know enough to talk about that, becauseI didn't go and read or watch a Dana Shopper that I only found out aboutyesterday. If anyone has something that Oro knows about, it wants to write inand explain if there's any allusions, because I haven't found any my elsementioned this connection, but I feel like this is something pratol haveknown about. If he's researching on pres. apparently this is a prettyfamous one. So he's stealing its title. Yes- and this is this- is where you getto jump in because in their article, believing a sing from the guilty ofliterature collection, James Brown, who...

I assure him, is not the sole singer.The compares Miss Grade to Ben Johnson.Sixteen ten play the alchemist since Agnes the character who exposes thefraud and stands up for truth. Innocence emerges as the most gullibleand least satisfied character of the lot. Now we spoke about Ben Johnson innow, Sam Man, Yo game and bonus podcast that you can get by signing up atpatrolmates pot, but I don't know anything about this play, but Alice youdo now. This is the problem. I started rating it this morning it so I haven'tgot to the IT, and this was an I was wanting to read. Well, I was meant tobe reading mass grade so watch this space. I record something and Tuck itin in the introduction to the Sun Collection. David Langford also pointsout a connection to Peter Chevers N. U Nine hundred and seventy eight playarmadas, which is about the eighteenth century Italian COOSA, Antonio Salary.He Mertara cused of poisoning him and so Larry Means Salt Sae. That's whywe have sal was it sell? CELSA is the villain in the book in Mass Grade Ayeah? I originally my note with this. Is this a meeting less allusion? But no,this is telling you he is the bad guy like if you know the history of opera.You know that the guy who shares the name of the Guy who poison Meza Yeah,is the evil ghost another allusion that I was very excited to have found formyself. What is the movie screen? Oh Yeah, have you seen the green hi rightso scrite? You know the like ghost face, Guy Yeah, scream, yeah, yeah, okay,screaming is a it's the metals it is the slasher about slashes. The premiseof it is all the characters in the film are Big Slasher fans. They know therules of slasher films and they find themselves in when they startdissecting. What should happen and what shouldn't, based on the movies, they'vewatched and then turns out the killers, because there's two of them that's thebig twist of screen. They can't work out here. The kills off there's asecond killer right, that's the same! TWISTING MASQUERADE! Also the thescreen killer is called Ghost face, so gorst mascate goes gos face now,slasher. All this I'm like, Oh, my God. This is greet ACIS to excrem. I wasreally excited about this, so I found out that screen came out a year aftermasquerade, so screams doing pratchett screams to a projice. So I don't. Ithink this is complete coincidence, because scream would have been inproduction earlier. Practise. Writing his book, ear ones they're incompletely different things, but there's like some kind of maybe justwe've hit that point of First Mon des Something's going on here that both ofthese things are essentially arrived at the same point with the same plotdetails, and maybe that has something to do with the fandom of the opera as ahorror, influence siege, we'll talk about more later, but maybe they'redrawing from something going on there. I don't know, but I was really excitedabout that. I was like Oh no, there's no connections just like purecoincidence, but what a coincidence and what a smart guy to have pointed thatout. Yes say my, although perhaps more fittingly,I'm wondering because in in preparation with this, like a couple of weeks ago,Mattie and I did watch the these screen movies, the first two at least thefirst one- still really great the seck one, no good, but then that let us we watch Ti, I'mshame to admit. We did also watch the first three scary movie movies youfamiliar with these Yusha. Have you not figured out? I just can't do any formof scary film and just will life. It's called scary movie. I know it's aparody, but it's still scary to me. The scary movie films were a big deal. WhenI was like thirteen, they were what the older kids were into when I was inschool because you're older than me, these movies are horrible checks out.They are incredibly Hobotov. It was right at that moment. Wasn't it yeah? I,the second one is maybe the worst film I've ever seen yeah. Yes, we watchedthe these scary movie films, which was a weird premise. I was pointing outbecause, as I just explain to you, scream is already commenting. It isalready a parody of she films, because the first GA movie is pretty much adirect parody of screen. So it's already a parody of a person on deConstruction, so similar right, yeah we're getting we're getting somewherein there because scream is it's not funny, but it's very cappy, and canit's very cheesy, it's very campy, so it doesn't really work, but at the thetwist at the end of the first scary movie is. It is also a parody of theusual suspects. Do you do you? Do these self yeah, so suspects yeah, so the endof Scaramba one is: There's a characterwho's, a parody of one of the characters and scream whose name isdoofie who has played as a? How do we put this developmentally and intellectchallenged dude through the whole movie as a live, he's all hunching and he's,and everyone thinks he's or Doofu an idiot and then the end. He turns out tobe the real killer and he does the walk down the street and starts walkingstraight and getting the can of drives off, like you shall suspect, which issort of what happens in mass grade with Walter Pidge yeah right. So all this isto say pressure, not only predicted scream but predicted, scary, Marie you had an m his modernism hmmm. I mean it's kindof weird to call the scary movie films, Post Mon ID some, but it's true right m.it's the dark side. But yes, of course, he, the majorinfluence of mass grade, is the fatum of the opera. As we mentioned before,it was first published as a cereal in...

...the French newspaper La Gales. I don'tknow how to say that Lagal Lenoy Lagonoy, I think, that's close. That isgood. That's it was published in a French newspaper in one thousand, ninehundred and nine and then, as a novel one hand, nine tune a d ten andtranslated into English a year later in one thousand nine hundred and elevenpart of the reason there was a play with this as well. As I said, probablyto get the most out of mass grade, you you probably want to read fan of theopera of Chios thought would be interesting to you for dark euroreasons, so you read the Famie. How do you feel about the Fan of the UprightHouse? I didn't like it very much. I don't think it's a great book. It's nota great book at all, and obviously the interest of me is that dirk hero stuffand even though there are these allusions- and I think of, as you pointed out,there's something there with a vampire. I didn't think there were any sort ofsignificant meaningful connections like if I'm going to write this book in afew years on, like the development of different, dark heros and I'm I wasthinking about where it would fit and what I would say about it and it wouldfit into the gothic villain and like developments of the gothic bone in thenew gothic revival, but yeah not very interesting. I wasn't blown away. No, it's! I don'tthink it's a very well like written book M. I think there's some there'ssome cool stuff in it, but it's it's like pretty cliche as well. It's likenot being translated might be a problem as well. I feel like we might have lostquite a bit, maybe- and I think that's why it doesn't come up for me and, likeall of my reading, on dark heros in the history of Darker Heroes, it'sobviously very English, centric anglophone centric and it's French. Sowe don't. Obviously we did go so, which is Germany but yeah. It doesn't come up.It's gonna say I don't think farm of the operas. This influential thing likeI don't think it's establishing anything I think where is interesting,is maybe the culmination like it's solidify, not even solidifying, but itis like the the saturation. The what's the word when, like you go to all thebakeries and they all have the same frozen muffins see, I think thathappens in the Bironic care right yeah, that's my whole age. We are going to gointo the the Gothic pillin stuff earlier, but there's something going onin here. I think with the family opera as a reflection of these tropesdevelopment, the chats rather than establishing them as far as like withinthe fan of the offer itself, I thought it might be interesting to you, becausethe book itself, literally like literalize the progression from thedemonic hubristic faust to the romantic dun t, is Tom Genre. The traditionthere engaging with is the Don John Tradition. Biron changes it and doesdon one right, because in the in the one of the fan of the opera movies, Ithink it's the Haahaa one base well men S, one thousand, nine hundred andeighty nine one. They say like Don July Tom. They say it really weird. Well,technically, I think it is meant to be joined because of like the measure ofhis poetry, but just call it one and be done with it. Everyone Don Wi, Don LineDon Giovanni but yeah, so so for people not familiar with with the family. Theopera they're performing fast is the play there performing and the Phantomwants to fuck with their face performance and then ultimately replaceit with his own play, which is called dumb, one triumphant, which talkingabout the development of the Byronic hero and the dark here, and everythinglike that starts with fast and mallow, and everything and and the Mare Milton but fast and then goesthrough Byron, who writes Don One. Embedding that progression within thenarrative I see you're in betting in the narrative right, yeah yeah, I seeyeah, yes, the the start of what the what the Phantom, what the dark gothicvillain guy wants, is to usurp or supplant a depiction of a greedysatanic fasting figure where the sexy dude with a sexy romantic for go. Myissue, then, is like Don John O Donan Byron Story, which Ihave now read. There's not any of this memphis to feel an fast and stuff in.It is just a sexy dude getting into trouble being sold as a slave seducing.Some ladies, so I see like that's what he wants. It's just that actual DonJohn doesn't don an doesn't supplant the fastin villain. Instead, Byron hasall these other Bironico that I think he ripein turnsthe dark hero from a satanic figure into the SEXAGESIMA. I think it's it'scomplicated, but I don't think lorois going. Yes, I'm making a metacomet ARYon biotic things. I think he's just gone yeah fast and done one, but he'sdoing that because that's what Byron's done to the culture yeah fed of theopera reflects that culture, so we're getting a ki of that progression. Yeah.Yes, that is my argument in my secess guest on the road. Did it so to drawingboard not very well, though M he reflected he reflected it. He didn't doit it only in Fois cout culture for the next hundred years. I still reckon yeah. Byron is sointeresting because he's with us everywhere, never never alone. M.Alright, we'll come back to this, but that that's my basic like that. So Ithink that's there, but as many critics, as also pointed out, the Phantom isalso a faust fin story, with Christina playing faust to the PhantomsMephistopholes, who she summons as the...

...age of music securing the sacred fireof inspiration. I thought what was interesting with Christine. Maybe Imissed something, but it wasn't like she wanted anything. He was just tryingto seduce her, so it's more satanic than fast, but even then Eve does wantknowledge. You know pride, something Christine does want to be a successfulsinger yeah. She was already pretty good, though right. Well, she wants tobe in the family opera. She wants to be. She wants to be the superstar she wantsto replace the woman who was already the biggest guy hmmm. It just seemedlike a big jump down from. Can I have all the knowledge in the universe,please to like I'd like to be the Star for theshow. Well, I mean ly the by the Adam and everything she's already for, andshe are has all the knowledge of the universe, and now she wants fain, maybemaybe yeah first monism M- that thousand nine hundred ten Josh is her.My moneys on it yeah! No, that's my exact note is that she doesn't summonhim like fasters. He appears to her and offers her how he I can teach you howto sing and I've written. That is a satanic temptation rather than a fastembarkin there. Yes, this is my thing right, Satan sneaks in we don't wethink, oh it's fast or of its bi, but actually it is the satanic tradition,and it's everywhere. Nobody pays any attention to it. Yeah, well, I meanfast, is: Is Satan Right? That's that's! The alloway has an element of Satan init. I know they're not one to one an what I said that that is a generalizedage of me. O is playing with it. It's just an athem me because I'm like, butthere are so many different satans and that kind of lot of is right. LikeSatan is literally Prometheus. I don't make that argument, but fous is a aversion of the atonic story or Mephosto at leases. Yeah he's aversion, but eventhen he's taking four soul back to say anyway. It's fine! You join me on mypodcast, where we go into the background of all of this in a coupleof weeks. Are you doing a false one? Well, we goin to do man for it, so wetouch on foust three go through and then we'll get keep going backward, I'mnot doing them in order it's great having a good time. You do whatever youwant, yeah yeah, so just just finishing up on thatsatanic theme as well, in a rather brilliant undergraduate thesis rightundergraduate, so as the equilaterals, but not a masters or anything justundergraduate pieces from earlier this year on the fan of the Opera GothicSpace Zita, an Reno also argues that, since the underground regions of theOpera House are frequently described as a hellish landscape fit only for SatanGhost and the lack of Eric, that's the name of the Fadom in the fan of theopera. There is a thing I realize here where, like you know, you call youdon't say: Freman stands monster, so frenesie creature, because you meant tobe neutral rather than claim monstrous, and so I think, there's a thing withfan of the Opera Scholarship, where you meant to call him Eric, Chis, hisneutral name, rather than calling him the Phantom, which we ghost I'm justcalling him the Phantom so that you know I'm referring to the fan of theopera, but fidely for Satan goes and the lack of Eric by specificallycalling the underground layer a retreat of more than one occasion, which is acomparison that likens the home and the domestic with Hell. I just thought like throughout I pickedup on. You know, there's this hellscape underneath yes fast, bringing the thingback her whatever I don't know about domestic home. What yeah! I think thatthe hinging that on retreat is something there, but I he does make ahome out of it right in the same way as I in well. That's that's the thing,that's what she's saying is that Walter and the Phantom Rot Walter and Asgaya dEric in the fan of the opera and not welcome in the Opera House, so they gounderneath where they make their own kingdom right better. The raining hellbetter. The raining the cut OCURD may make a having a Palla Hell of heavenright make a home of the all right secret. I mean yes, she could take thata little further. But yes did she go on and talk about it like. I said this isunder graduate faces, and this is the best pace of scholarship. I read on thefan of the opera. I think it's brilliant. I'm also I'm cautious toquote from this because maybe she's just pulling it from somewhere else,and maybe this is a sheller reading and I'm just finding it more accessible,but I don't know there was. I will send you this thing because I think there'ssome stuff in there like she talks about these connections to fast and theGothic stuff. It might be interesting. I thought it was great moving fromundergraduate thesis to literary Titans during an analysis ofStephen King's misery of one thousand nine hundred and seven. That's the book,not the analysis, I'm not sure what are the analysis is Margaret Outward alsocompares kings version of the Sultan's Maze Motif, which I had to go throughher other works and find, as the motet woman imprisoned in a La Labyrinth, myeah. So Margaret Wed Compares Kings Use of the Sultan's Maze Motif, whichis used. She says, among other places, in the fadom of the opera in which thepatron of a work of art wishes to murder its make, or so only he willpossess its secrets. Have you read misery? Are you o Stephen King? Ihaven't Miseri might be my favorite sting Stephen King Book. I think, butit is about Steven King had a had a x car accident or something that he hadto recover from. That was a big thing in his career that, like he wasn'tgoing to write an I and then he had a crash and realize like Oh what, if Inever finished all these books and came back and finished off fi series andeverything, but he wrote a book called misery, which is about Arate becauseall of Steven kings protector himself,...

...who is in a car crash and then isrescued by someone who turns out to be a big fan of his work, but he hasn't oractually in misery, he's finished the series, but he killed off the maincharacter and then she's like no, that's, no good, I'm keeping youhostage until you rewrite this last book to suit my like Fan Cannon. It'sreally good. I think it might be my favorite seven King Film Man Book, butwhich is to say that the fane of the operas that sort of thing but MigretAva, says because the point I'm actually trying to get to about motorAtland is that she also compares the fan of s one gram layer to the descentinto hell in Virgil's, Anian and hed a mediate. I always struggle with thatone and the not unrelated grim's fairy tale the twelve dancing princesses orthe worn out dancing. Shoes were in twelve princesses sink into the groundeach night and cross a subterranean lake to a place where they dance withtwelve princes until their shoes collapse get better shoes which hisacknowledging the the descent Er to hell was why I wanted to jump to thatcord foy that she fix those two out and not the other hundreds ofrepresentations of descent into Hell Right. I would have go Madenti yeah well, this is the thing with, with itsWord Association e Text Association. She just rus from one thing to onething, so all that she goes she's talking about misery and she goesthat's like Famam of the opera, which is like that. How which is like thereany ED, which is like this grim's fairy tale and doesn't make a point about anyof them just goes yeah. You like what was that so, yes,we'll come back to Aben, because she does some more crazy stuff later, butin terms of fan of the opera. Yes, another obvious influence or precursorto the fan of the opera is Victor Hugo Os and eight undred, an tirty threenovel, the hunch back of a Usteron, which is perhaps also alluded to massgrade via Walter Plan. Shrutis, the humbled service person he's not ahunchback, but he sort of like scrunched he's a scrunch back. It's gotbad posture. Have you ever you read that book now I've seen the film yeah,the the dise yeah. It's have you been to notre. I was going toread it. I wanted to buy a copy of nothern from noteand. Read it way, andthen I did because it's very long I'd been before and after the fire, Oh, youwent after the fire yeah and before before the fire. I am amazed that not asingle notable black metal band has used that as an album cover the burningutheris go. I know, like some underground bands would have used it byI'm amazed that I have not seen that just everywhere all death metal coversfor the next like a hundred years, every day, a hundred years, not RedaBenning, not as pretty cool right. Yeah I, like efter down muddy, dragged me tolike a million churches. When we went through in Europe, the churches do getold. You know obviously there's some good ones, but let's like let's hit theyou know the highlights, rather than just we're going to visit every fuckingchurch- and I was going to say not arm- is by far the best one, but actuallyclone O is Pretty Sick York Minster is my favorite there's one in the middleof it. Just in the middle of Florence, that's just a big fuck off the yes ispretty sick. I didn't go inside that one though, but in terms of my GothShit, not red arm yeah a banging like the back of it looks cool or Uster yeahhe used to so is Houchard. I think there's something there. I wanted to beable to say more about it. I was going to read hunchback Montredon, becausethat is a gap in my literary thing, but I just read all the vampire books:instead, guess it's there, but it's like the same thing right. You got adisfigured guy running around in a castle. I guess the difference is thathe doesn't manipulate the lady into loving him. She just loves him for whoshe is. I want to say that, but I don't know because I haven't read it: You'veseen the movie yeah, but we went through had Disney fucked off thatright, yeah. We did like three parts on that. The other thing about a fan of theopera is he's freaking stance, creature dressed up as drucken yeah, baby right,he's, t I'm ugly and I can E in society and I'm going to wear a cloak and runaround and kidnap bucks and Wenches. It's funny because, like going backthrough frank, an Stan that I can't say this word, the physiognomy like the thelike your face, tells people who you are, and you can make judgments aboutthe as year brain yeah and, like you know, frank and son's creature is likeall ugly and disgusting and then the joke. Well, not the joke. The wholepoint is that he's actually quite a nice person until society corrupts andalso he's a mass murderer that comes later. You know he collects firewood.First, he's Nice. He does murder the first child he meets, WHO William? Nothat's after the fact he's been living with the delacys for months before thatyeah, but he's never been a child. Okay, sure after he's become corrupted thefirst person he makes Tik it if you get one rejection, gives you a free metal. What I'm saying is like he's Nice, thathe is corrupted by society and Shelley doesn't do things like slowly. She justlike draws a line now right now: You're, evil and you're killing children- okay,that's which honestly Dracula could have used to that pacing and it's interesting because, like allthe evolutionary psychology stuff, it kind of lines up in its craziness,because it's like physiognomy is crazy and then over the senery psychology hasthese weird theories about you know you like men with big bids and whatever,because they're sex and it's like not what I just had a trim. It's funny how the crazy intersects inthat one and they're both trying to say that, like ugly Peopleo are like evilor unlikeable or outcast of society and...

...actually they're quite nice. All I justgot nothing to add because, as a certified Stubboahn had this problem,so I'm relatable in there two thousand and eight book secrets of the weefreesand Disko to carry Pickanin. That's a name with two wires and two K back andLinda Washington suggests. Fane of the opera also may have been inspired byGeorge de Marries, one tousand, eight hundred and ninety four over trilby,which is about a ton of young woman who can't sing, but who is hypnotized intodoing so by the musician and Mesmerist Svengalis Bangan this one yeah. No, Iactually have read a bit of tribe because it came up because do Marywrote another book called the Martian, which is about a Martian who comes toearth and is sort of amazed at the. I guess immorality of mankind and is heis the pure person who comes and teaches us how to be better people.It's one of those stories. But of course he is a vegetarian, and thisbook is mentioned in the same vegetarian general that Vectus talkabout how great eels as war of the worlds is. That is how I came acrosstrilby and our last possible inspiration for the fin of the opera ortext. A insperation is fairy tale scholar, Maria Tyler, who we talkedabout in some of the witches. A broad episodes also reads: Fan with the operaas a blue beard story due to its focus on compulsive female curiosity and thecontrolling male figure also eve, but yeah. Okay, what we said blue bit iseve right yeah I mean this is specifically a man walking a lady up ina you know, a tower a labyrinth thing a she. He doesn't say, don't check thisthing. He says: Don't take off my my mask is there in there the other majorinfluence on Loro's family of the opera is the Gothic architecture of the upperhouses themselves. Loras Fantom was primarily inspired bythe one thousand eight hundred and ninety six chandelier crush that killeda concierge in an opera house that was based on a real event. So in her thesis,Reno illustrates how early upper houses began to ideologically influence theiraudiences, pointing to the Italian Opera House, Titan Alaska, Kira, aLascalla. Thank you else, which was rebuilt in seventeen. Seventy six,after being destroyed in a fire with funding being provided solely by thenobility that frequented the theater before it burnt down me. They couldpretty much do what they wanted in the Opera House after it rebuilt right.They bought the right to use the opera house at their women, which then led toupper class control of opera m. As the influential opera critic Carol, ChinaLin explains, the boxes became their private salons. Each box was decorateddifferently, according to the owner's tastes, with silk tapestry or scenesfrom favorite operas, covering the walls and frescoes mirrors or carvedwood, which had done the ceilings and that the boxes could be closed off,allowing intimacies in the box, which gave rise to gossip of every time. Sothere are they're banging in that in the boxes, but they're essentiallyusing the opera houses there. You know private playhouse, it's become yeahless about opera itself, and it's about this upper class get away. I guess andRena argues that these boxes resembled miniature homes visible butunattainable by the rest of the audience, and thereby reiterating thenobilities position at the top of society. The nobles display of theirwealth and power through the boxes became as much a production as theplays themselves with the attendance of the archduke Ferdinand and Arch DuchessMaria ricarda Beatrice Desta at the inaugural performance, a hat this newlyrebuilt Opera House. They were on the toler page of the operas program,larger than it side, which didn't feature either of the composer's namenor the singers. So we're getting this replacement of art by celebrity, Ithink, is another thing that projets engaging with in masquerade yeah right.This is why they want Christine in there rather than Agnes, it's lettingno longer about talent it's about staff quality as they call it. The upperhouses and the divided space within therefore became a symbol of asophisticated and cultural upper class, which was threatened by the unwelcome,lower class Phantom. In a rose novel, I mean we're seeing that fan of theopera was already a comment about class politics, but I think that's Garad iscommenting more on on this. This class divide rather than opera itself,because yeah masquerade is about opera, but it's also a party a fan of theopera which, despite its title, was not an Ohra, nor has it ever technicallybeen an opera. I've know it anyway. This is kind of a similar thing wherepeople who think of opera these days, probably the first thing they go to hisfend. The opera not NAPRA, he's just at the opera and he is a phantom. Hedoesn't do OPRA, but, yes, it's misleading. Well, it is, of course, thebasis for the Andrew Loyd Webber, musical family opper for one thousandnine hundred and eighty six, which was the highest person musical of all time,having earned nearly three times more than the then most lucrative film,which was James Camerons Titanic. This is in the late is when Preteema gradeor actually that's before, Tita, but in the NIS right. So it's until Avertircame along in a doin three times as much as the most successful film,although I was overtaking in two thousand and fourteen by the Lion Kingand I believe it's now third behind the line, King of wicked. That's becausethese plays they go on for, like I wonder where Hamilton's at there hmmthat's the other reason. The reason why it took them so long to make a movie ofwhere Hers Family, Opera Right, the movie comes out two thousand and fourin ears after mascarade and twenty...

...years, almost after the show debute isthat they don't want people to be able to go see the movie they want them tokeep coming to the play. So that's why there is no Hamilton movie. There is nowicked movie! Well, there's haulte movie in the works, but you're right,they've pushed it yeah they've done in the heights. First, HMM interest yeah,so this is still running in New York, where it's become a Broadwayinstitution and shows no signs of clothing. And as I was writing all ofthis, when I was first Mingo together got an email saying: Do you wanttickets to fan the opera opening in Melbourne, which has been postponedinto two thousand and twenty two but yeah? This is. This thing is stillcoming. People are still into family the opera. Before all this, I'm notreally sure why Prache was inspired to write about the family opera in onethousand, nine hundred and ninety five, all the midnight specifically onethousand nine hundred and eighty six after the play came out right you'dwant to write something then two thousand and four is when the filmcomes out. I don't know what's happening between those two points,maybe you didn't see it for five years or ten years or yeah. I mean we'resaying this was inspired by he. He went to the opera. He probably went to seefan of the offer, and it's just strange that this happens at at this pointrather than in response to where there are those things. It's PRATIMAS so yeah we're saying a friend theoperas, not an off rub but as where himself said in a e thousand ninehundred and eighty eight Time magazine feature what do we mean by opera anyway,and he argued that there's no difference today between opera andserious musical theater that these are terms that divide class, the quantityof I don't know. I thought OPRA was a particular type of singing that hadbeen gentrified a little bit but was still very difficult to do. I guessnormal singing is difficult to do. Well, I wouldn't know that's like higher lowliterature right at mainstream literature, literature and GeneralLiterature, they're both words and books with stories and plots. But oneis serious art right. So I'm not sure if Pratchett ever really engages withthis higher mo culture thing in in mass crate, because he sort of post the fanof the Oro musical. Like there's already been that collapse, he is justtreating them as the same thing, but I guess like inherently in writing aaccessible popular fantasy, novel satirical humorous, fantasy novel aboutthe pretensions of Opera he's like acting that collapse and he's sayingthat your sophisticated culture is nothing but a bunch of sillysuperstitions yeah and he's saying it's full of fantasy yeah, the you peopleare deluded that you believe in all these superstitions like break a leg,is like Nick Beth. Really, yes, which is another way. That is a a rehash ofweird sisters. But again I think that there's something going on in this bookand I don't know it's like he was trying to do yeah lots of these littlethings, but he never quite brought it to a head in a very like noticeable way.I guess like if you're, if you're just me, reading the book and not analyzingit for weeks and reading it three times as you have it's just like. What did Ijust read? Yes, so he's two thousand and nine article. What do we mean byopera anyway, which is named after wethers Cote David Chanlercharacterizes web as Phantom as a work of popular musical theater thatattempts to be as operatic as possible without, however, repelling an audiencewho would ordinarily consider the idea of opera intimidating so he's on thecuster and I did watch? I wish the two thousand and four film which wasgarbage, but it is like singing all the time. It is a very operatic musical.It's not like you know Greece, or something where they break into song.Occasionally the whole thing is suck. Moreover, as the author of the twothousand book getting opera, a guide for the cultured but confused MattDobkin Points Out. Opera has historically been a popular art formthat aimed to entertain ordinary people advising his readers not to be afraidof opera, because some force has foolishly built it up as the ultimatein refinement. So this is again the Shakespeare thing used to be a popularthing. It was for everyone, it's been canonized as this culture and it's gotaway from it lower class popular roots and through things like the Webermusical and looks like Carpajo Im, it's been brought back the people so tospeak and which is what wites a out, but I think that's what's going on inMaskrade, that's never quite articulated Popley, it's about thisclass revision, and this is parody directly in mass grade by audience.Attends like the legal clerk Henry laws yet who attends the opera seeking toimprove his mind, having bought a book about the upper and read it carefully,because he'd heard that it was absolutely unheard of to go to an aprawithout knowing what it was about and the chances of finding out why you areactually watching it were Wi mo, and I can actually relate to this. I don'tknow because again, in the same trick, where I wanted to buy a copy of thehunchback of matraam AL is at Atada to give it that sort of Notre Danny or butwe did go. We went to the globe in London, so we bought tickets to seewhat was on when we're. There was Julia Caesar, so I bought a copy of JoyCaesar from a book shop and it- and I read it all before going to see thisplace- I wanted to know Julia season, so I could understand it before I went.I think that was a mistake with Shakespeare actually find the storywith Shakespeare comes through way, more clear. It me watching it, but Idid the same thing I wanted to go in knowing about the play rather than justwe're, also academics. So that's true. This is what I do for fun Samee. Youalso have the near Opera House, owner in mass grade, the investor Mr Bucket,which is an allusion to miss bucket from the early s British Sitcom,keeping up appearances, who insist that her name is actually pronounced bouquetdue to middle class protections. So again, just just through that illusionhe's like hinting at this theme, yeah the new Neuvo race, new Veris, but ally.You have to know these things to see...

...what he's getting like. I think it is amore subtle book than weird sisters, but maybe not a successful getting itsidea across. I'm not sure the annotated project also points out that manypeople have also spotted the description of water pinge of having aBarea, Brown Cote nervousness being clumsy as being very slimmer, a FrankSpencer who's. The League character in the British television comedy somemothers do. Aver and Frank Spencer was played by Michael Crawford, who went onto become truly famous as the original fantom in the weather musical. But Idon't think that one's making a point just a cool little illusion, bringingBritish sitcoms and the webbe musical together. So, yes, we're not sure whyproche was into fan of the opera in the mid is but like family Aher was a bigcultural institution of that point. Although, as calling notes, operaattendance in Britain increased by less than three percent durin o Tho s, theChanderi, that the desire to light opera is far stronger than actual operaappreciation. And this is where to a great proliferation of what might betermed entrance level materials while making comparatively little differenceto such advanced forms of opera appreciation such as actually sittingthrough Workas, pretty funny it's like reading here, and I salt yeah Nice, butpeople should read, Paradise lost absolutely, should then listen to mypodcast on it but yeah. I sort of argue the opposite like if you take thepopular view of this of like there is no divide between opera musicals, theyare of the same form. This is saying that no opera is more popular. Now likethis Dataset depends on what you qualify as opera. Not If fantom theopera is an opera, then audience attendance of operas increase a billionfollowed or whatever, but it's not not. Fr only offer people are saying thatwere as Andrew Laws. We were saying now. This is what opera is now. This is whatit is transformed into. They are from the same tradition. Okay, I that as acertain type of singing, but then all operas and musicals like you, go theother way with it not to in all musical opera, but all operas or musical, somusical attendants increased, and then it becomes a genre thing rather than atype thing. I guess a because the other thing I have happening in the early sis the Disney reasons. We talked about theyre all musicals, the other thingwith the Disney rangles. It's all the guys who do. The songs came frommusical theater, the guys who did who framed Roger Rabbit and little shop ofhorrors, Alan Mankin and composer Howard Ashman, who did the music forthe Little Mermaid Body in the beast, in a laden with Makin later working on,perker Hondas, the hunchback of Mosha Hercules entangled as well, and youhave the Disney hunchback coming out in thousand nine hundred and ninety six oone year after mascaret there's something going on with her musicaltheater revival, if not a opera revival during the ten years between weather'sPhantom and projets masquerade. But it is not acknowledged as one because ofthat popular distinction between real opera and musicals. I guess also,interestingly, as chanler notes, despite unprecedented popular crackclaim or perhaps because of it, the development of a significant body ofLoyde criticism has been remarkably slow. As I was saying at the start thatthere's just there's nothing about math grade, it doesn't even have a googlescholar page. I couldn't find anything about whethers fond of the operate interms of academic scholarship, like I think I'm according like two or threearticles here, but you think as a it was built as the most successfulentertainment venture in the world. That's been on going for the lastthirty or forty years. I think we're up to now, like you think, there'd be aton of Webbers and there's just nothing written about it. So it's almost likethe operas. Nobory comes with the academic story. I would say thatliterary scholars probably aren't paying much attention to it because,like Fenor, the opera itself is like French and then the other stuffshappening kind of in the popular spear, and it's a musical. So, like the genredoes like, I wouldn't think of it, it would be something that I'd throw in inthe introduction. Okay, I was pretty amazed at how much how little Scholah pthere was for the Lloyd, Webber, musical and and the film, and also justthe family or opera novel itself, given how culturally prevalent they are,because whether these are good or relevant or anything like we all knowwhat fan of the or is you just like it? It's so in the culture as a thing andthere's just not much written about the actual text and the things themselves.So it's really interesting, I think there's some snobbery in it. I justthink that some of it maybe isn't like purposeful, like I'd, just be like. Ohthat's, a different genre or that's over there, like I'm dealing with theliterary and that yeah. So, yes to summarize, all that, what I think massgrade is really about is returning opera and theater to the lower classesvia the working class. Opera. Ghost of Walter pling, which, as grady remindsus is just another word for spirit and spirit, is just another word for soul.That saying that the the working class, the lower class are the soul of theoperator belongs to that sees the means of production. I think that's kind ofwhat he's saying about, and also water pinge who we can see asan analogy for loide he's written versions of public musicals likeweathers cats and a Veda among with miserable Liz and then other ones, butmiserable, less yeah, there's a bunch of lodebar musical parodies amongst theones he's written and it's sort of saying. No. This is the future ofopera's dead and old and Silian multiplane is going to come along andmake it successful, because it's like complain about how do you make moneyout of opera well Andrew Load, weathers made? A lot of money has like what Opledgesas well, not that we ever go...

...back to the opera house in discord. Yes,all that brings us to the idea of the masquerade itself and back to the ideaof carnival which we explored in depth in the bed, which is a broad episode,so as Roger Piker explains in one thousand, nine hundred and ninety fourOxford illustrated history of opera mass grade. Bowls originated in theopera houses of Italy as the culmination of the carnival seasons,theatrical productions, but the came considered immoral by upper classes, asthe tradition was adapted into French and English. Culture are due to theirattraction of the poor and their allegedly vulgar behavior to the except. The upper classeseventually imposed. Dress codes on mass grades, demanding people were decently,dressed, which rolled out most of the population that they were meant toinclude. We already discussed masquerades in the or episode, becausethis whole mass grade scene is a rehash of which is a broad ovid yeah. You havethe mass grade ball. There nanny dresses up in the fancy clothing andpretends to be a socialite like that's a scene from which is a bar, whichthere is probably a parody of scenes like this in fam of the opera, wherePracher didn't know, he was going to write a book of Fanny Apra, but then hegets here and he just does it again like we have death in the red clotheswalking through the scene, which is what that's from fan of the opera, butalready happened in masquerade, shows up in a red clerk in the in which is abroad. So I thought that was pretty lazy. I think it's something newproject come up or it's you know it's a metaconet about narrative imperativethat once you got a mascate ball, you got to have death there in the red. Idon't know to bring it back to the class things there are the death beingdressed in red. The MESSRA ball is also an allusion to a gallon pors than eighthundred an forty two short story: The mask of the Red Death, which is aboutthe upper classes dancing at a mass grade ball. Where the lower classeswill die from a play outside on that's relevant, because everyone's atthe met Galer in America and then everyone in America is dying, the Bat guy is an interesting one,because I do look at it and go. We immediately made to hunger games agames exactly yeah, but also it's a benefit for an be off. I know tocharity of Em. It's like includes like a lot of lgbt people and stuff. So I,like I, don't know. Maybe we just need to change it up a bit like do we needforty thousand dollar dresses. Is that something we need? The fashion industryin general yeah, the Phantom of the up shopper vot? That's the biggest reaction of Gen.Have you what the fan of the up trupe was also a h. What is the halting guy? I Love Pun. I don't know if that was a much of a.He was really a Olmness gefilte attractive. Quite many of times get it again M. Yes, so everyone'sdying from the plague outside in the in the mask the red death. But then thiswest on that story is a play victim, then walks through the thing and killsthem all illustrating how disaster will come to those who try to exclude othersfrom me, no says so. This is also another allusion to a story about thelower class coming for the upper class. Yeah Yeah, I guess the other thing totalk about here is masks themselves, which I don't really have to say muchto say about, but I do feel like we should dress, given that that's themajor theme of the book that is called Mask Grade. So, in addition to socialpretences, mass grade is full of double or false identities, people maskingtheir personalities just to list them all off. You've got Agnes who's, Padinaand also the singer for Christine Got Christine. Who is masquerading as acigar. You have granny weather works, who's Mascati is lady espered, you havenanny being the lunk a witch and also a mad or a servant. At the Opera House,you have Grebe who is portraying himself as human as Lord Grebo, as theGhost Henry slog who's being in RIKERLEC ANDRE WHO's. The under coverpoliceman, nobby WHO's. There is captain nobbs who that's actually infeet of clay, which is the next book. The whole plot point of that is nobbydiscovers he is of noble birth and there is a count to nobs family, butthen that turns out to be false and it was all a political employe again. Thisis prejet made a dumb jerk about Captain Dobson was like to make anentire plot out of it for my next book and does run with it. What if nobby wasfancy and, of course, count detritus, which is another one of my favoritepuns from to God, one they want to get a belly laugh out of me every time Iwent past an do my audio book a night. I wonder if it's like you know you goto the offer to see people not being themselves on the stage, but also inthe crowd, because everyone's a nobby idiot, and so oh, that's, a good pointyeah. It is like the thing where everyone who watches the hunger gamesis watching the hunger games. Yeah Meta, the real show is the audience is areflecting, which is as a link to like.

I want to bring out mirrors here,because mirrors are another theme of the Fan of the opera right he'spassages hidden. He visits, what's a name in over and behind from behind themirror and speaks to where, through a double sided, mirror and all the moviesthere's big scenes of them, smashing the mirror. Of course. His appearanceis a whole thing. He doesn't want to see himself in the mirror. It's likehe's. Looking at a broken Mary mirrors are a theme. We talked about MarysMerris, anything to add Mary's they're there Mirza mask, of course, there'sthe allusion to like the tragedy and humor masks. The aristole and theatermask the franny face mask in my face mass. You got two ghosts, so I'm sortof wondering like his cells are meant to be the tragedy mask, but then itdoesn't make sense. The mortoise the comedy mask like he's, not comedic, butif comedy is just in that theater mode of happy ending versus saddening.That's a lot. I don't know yeah, that's another one. where I think projets likedeliberately gesturing there m but isn't really making a point about it,just the the illusions embedded in there, by necessity, also in by CarperJuggie. So in the next book Agnes has learned to look around when she visitedsomeone's home, because in one way it was a piece of clothing and had grownto fit their shape and might show not just what they've been doing. But whatthey've been thinking having been told by Granny weatherwax that a witch'scottage is their second face. So we have another allusion to massin theidea of witchcraft being outward performance, because, yes, we again, wehave this tension between granny wether expind, all about authenticity. Also,everything is an illusion. Yeah all right back to Atwood, I promised yeahso on a two thousand and eleven reflection on her early comic readinghabits called Flame raits. This is in the other world's book, Michael Tatward,speculates the bat man's mask may have come from the comedia della Tratradition, which is a seventeenth century Italian street theater or fromnights incognito such as Ivanhoe or- and these are more sinister originsfrom the Phantom of the opera or from Phantoms, which is not just the fifthbest Mike Pattent Solo project, but a quote mast and also French evil geniusfrom the turn of the century or but says possibly just from the standardmast rubber of the comics. So again, this is that word. Association, she's,going or Batman is like hide, which is like Phantoms, which is like fan of theopera, which is like rubbers, but also that man is very explicitly based onZoro. Bruce Wane goes to see a performance of sorrow and his parentsare killed outside the theater like that is written in the text of that man,mmm, sorry with bats. She is right. She eventually gets there through her, likeWord Association, and it's not an argument. You're right, but also shedidn't need to do that, because the guy who invented Batman said that man islike Sara. Yes, it's not just sorry right. This isa popular archetype in Twentieth Century Comics, right, bat man comes onin thousand nine Tis, but this is a popular Chetyre of the early twincentury re. You got other examples, such as the Scout, the shadow and theScot pimpernel that can be traced back to Ivan her there's also a mask thiefnamed the Bat in the nine hundred tirty film. The back whispers who Batmancreate a bove cane is credited as another direct inspiration. So yes, asI said at it's, not wrong, but it's not a mystery and she's, not sayinganything original or profound, like she presents that as I have unravelled thistruth, you haven't no one was asking the question and he didn't come up withanything, but all sir. After all, that Batman has nothing to do withSeventeenth Century Talian straight erect or her starting point was well.But the point of all that is the sensitive Bironic, gothic villain andromantic revel will provide the basis for a lot of popular by runicus andanties in modern Cole. That is my thesis and that's what we're going to analyzenow we've been talking a lot about family offering mastered in terms ofromantic and Gothic archetype, specifically the gothic villain and, asyou mentioned Allis, this is your entire thesis. So do you want to go yous of introducing the concept of the GOTHIC film for us they're, aninteresting character, because we start to get early versions of it inShakespeare and they're kind of nefarious trouble making men? We seethem in sort of the vice character that is very popular in Shakespeare anddrama, particularly the comedies and, of course, also the tragedies, but itreally comes into its own in the eighteenth century and most prominentlyor really we draw a line and say this is the landmark first ever gothicvillain is horrored poles cast of the tronto, which is seventeen sixty one,and in that we sort of get it developed as an archetype and some of the keyhommack are there often a patriarchal figure? I either the head of a family.There is some sort of important lineage associated with them, and they're,often motivated by the desire to maintain the purity or the power ofthat family, or often to get money to support that family and often they'llhave a curse or a full or a prophecy, or something they're trying to fulfill,and that patriarchal motivation often manifests as oppression of women onsurprisingly and in the early versions. It is just it just is that, but then,as it starts to get developed, authors start to play around with this idea andcriticize this patriarchal oppression of women and use it as part of feministcommentary. So if Horswell Paul is the...

...first of the Gothic Villain, we see itdeveloped through poetry and plays and copy cat variations for the next coupleof decades until you get to an radcliff who's. The next sort of development inthis figure and she starts to imagine it as a patriarchal figure wholiterally oppresses women, often by locking them up in places for them intomarriage, engaging or attempting to engage in some sort of incestuousrelationship. Beyond that, though, once we've established these two sort ofvariations of the gothic villain, you've got patriarchal figure who, aspatriarch almost for the sake of it and the patriarchal figure, which is acommentary on female oppression and subjugation. You sort of establishedtwo different modes of the gothic villain and people start to experimentand play with them from there was that all of the top of yet yet veryimpressive else. Thank you yeah. So we're going to look at this developmentand how it applies to fan the opera primarily, but I want to go back andstart at the beginning with Moll Pole and with the gothel in its originalinclination. So you know his influential examination of the bironicheros types and prototypes from one thousand nine hundred and sixty twohide L to slave. Who is very much our boy he's a boy yes, so he in hisexamination of the gothic types and prototypes boss, leve describes theGothic Villin, as always striking and frequently handsome of about Middle Ageor somewhat younger, with a tall manly, stalwart, physique and dark hair andbrows, frequently set off by a Pale, an aesthetic complexion, and that, asidefrom this, the most noticeable of his physical characteristics were his eyes.As Eve also notes, the by birth, the gothic villain was always of thearistocracy, partly for the sense of power, which is nobility confers andpartly for the air of the fallen angel, the air of the satanic greatnessperverted, and that there is frequently some mystery connected with his birthor his upread. So my theory here is that after Satan and we've talked aboutthis- maybe on this podcast before definitely on my other one, which iscalled of the Devil's Party, you can find us on sounder sat nax is a turningpoint for representation of the dark. Hero have just said it again, becausehe is a sympathetic version of them. The first ever genuinely sympathetic,bad guy, and I think all my theory is that, after that, he splits off and hassort of two very distinct traditions, and one is the romantic satanic hereand the other is the gothic villain and the differences in the in the satanichere over manism, all of his best traits are taken and emphasized andmade more sympathetic and all of his worst traits are put into the gothicvillain and ate sides there, yeah yeah so and you'll, specifically talkingabout Milton Sae paradise loss, correct. Thank you. We've literally just talkedabout it on our MANFORD episode, so you're saying this happens even beforethe gothic tradition is established, because the like castle me Tranto, wasoften insidet, the first gothic novel you're, saying even before s like therewas a gothic villain. Satan comes along and splits the character. It's thatSatan came along and the troops of Satan were then later divided. Yeah, Imean you can read all this in those lets book. Analysis thesis also havealso claims that, in their original inclination, Gothic villains had nopsychological, must less philosophical complexity right there that mustachetwilling villains. They are, after all, PACE board characters. However, theydid have great strength of will and also a forceful and ingenious mind,since they must devise the endless machinations of evil which make up theintricate plots are three volume novels in though their motives seemedinadequate to the torrents of evil unleashed in their personalities, andthose love continues that it should be noted, moreover, but they aremisogynous all they take great delight that they are a sageness all takinggreat delight in persecuting women, probably from the exigencies of theplot. Since these are all novels of female sensibility, but they go muchfurther in this persecution than would be necessary to further theirparticular ends. So this is reflecting what you were saying that they're theirevil is often expressed through their they kidnap women right. This is themost most twilling Gill and who kidnaps of women and then- and all of that thisis the the archetype there. This to me pretty obviously applies to ero co, thePhantom and Phantom of the opera, with some exceptions does that fit for youyeah. He definitely kidnap some woman, yeah he's not particularlyphilosophically complex, despite his intrigants and evil machinations. Yeah.That's what I annoyed me about him. I found him were quite boring. For thatreason, he is a a wooes false say, a cardboard, a peace, cored character. Heis just the Gothic villa and I don't think he's just the Gothic fell and Ido think there's more stuff going on there, because this also comes ahundred years after Barroso. We're talking much later, but in terms ofusing the archetypes Liberalis using this fan of the opera character, and Ido think he's adverts by making the phantom sympathetic as will get to,although maybe not a symthe sympathetic, as we think of him nowadays in theoriginal novel, where he's sort of just a monstrous kidnapper yeah. The onlybit here that I think contradict is that the Phantom of the opera is prettydefinitively not hot. That sort of is the funny cates, but inthe original novel, like that's the reason why he's exiles from societieshe's too ugly to exist in his Moses, it's the freaking stunter on makes oneof the movies he's got no nos. How does he smell his face? Looks like a skullis really the description in the book,...

...so he is forced out of society by hismonstrous appearance and then becomes a Gothic fillin as thoughts leve observesand as Alice just told us. The gothic villa made its first appearance inHorace Walpole's castle of a traitor from seventeen sixty one, which isfitting, since is the first Gothic Bob. Also, the village of the first GothicDevil, as the first gothic villain sort of, is a Tortoli there yeah do we wantto talk about a traitor a bit if you like, for people who haven't read it,and I imagine that's not many, and also you probably shouldn't, because it'snot very good. It's very short, though Oh yeah, but it took me so long and allthe interesting stuff happens in like the first fifteen pages, yeah yeah atwhat happens as a wedding and a Agin, a giant ghost town wet, appears outnowhere and squashes the groove yeah. That's the first thing that happened inthe book. It's great and it's never explained. So. We need to get anotherperson to marry the lady to to continue the family legacy and make sure theline is pure. So the Dad of the groom decides he's going to marry her andshe's. Like Hmm, no thank you, though it freaks out and then some guy comesby and she falls in love with him, and then he tries to help her escape andthen the bad guy his name is Manford is chasing her forever and there's a deuce.Do Sex Macanas, a hay, a d six my day is ex Mac and other. We are at the endand everything sort of all goes back to normal. But the point is: it's: is aballor running from Manford, basically for the entirety of the play and hiswife is just like. Okay, the women are treated as just props to continue thisbloodline, which I guess I was going to say for the time. But again the wholepoint is none of this is actually written in or sit in an accurate gothicfire if there is such a thing, but in the medieval setting of the of the bookthat the women are there as tools to be used to continue family relationshipsand things, the other most famous and influential aligatha novels, which youmentioned, and red cliffs, the mysteries of Dolfo from seventeen.Ninety four and the Italian from seventeen ninety seven and MatthewLewis is the monk from from seventeen ninety six that when I've read, I havenot read red cliffs books because they are long and have a bad person. Now arelong. What I will say there is what's interesting about those ones isradcliff publishes Udolpho, and everyone says these are excellent, butsome people are annoyed because oh she's, a silly woman and her novels arefamously Scooby Doo. It's preternatural, instead of the supernatural or themysteries, are proven to be just normal things happening, and normally menbehind them. Matthew Lewis reads that and goes now: Let's turn it up, though,write the monk which is full of rape, incest and murder, and so and say inactual very sad with people being checked off cliffs, and then she writesthe Italian in response to that, which is all of that scary stuff, but donepsychologically again. So this is war going on between whether or not it'shorror or terror, whether or not it's psychological terror. It needs to bereal things, so it's fun because I think that comes together and fantom ofthe opera, but because you've got everyone going out. There's a ghostthere's a girl there's a ghost constantly, so it could be supernatural,but it's proven to be preternatural, but he's also a psychopath yeah you'reright. So it's superstition being explained by, I guess a rational explanation, whichalso happens in masquerade as well right, which doesn't really make sense,as we discussed being in the supernatural fantasy world thateverything has a natural explanation, so that I guess that's another way thatPratey sort of nodding towards this gothic tradition as well. He retainsthe the pretant ral version, so yeah, thos love considers the GOTHIC villainsin these novels to be representative of the model established by work or right,they're, still just these pretty surface level, mustache twelvins, whoare kidnapping women and running around doing the various schemes. Nevertheless,though, he observes a certain allow to the characters. Type at this pointsaying that the gothic villain is the protagonist of the knolls, in which heappears in the sense that he is the major character. So, even though he isthe villain he's almost the a proteins fillin yet as much as they are the maincharacters, then they drive the action. They also acknowledge the moral codesof their societies and their own wickedness in violating these codes andtherefore never fully engage our sympathies with their rebellionsagainst them, persevering and evil to the end and spurning any death bedrepentance. So these characters are compelling, but not likeable they're,not sympathy they're interesting, but we're not really rooting for them yeats.All these books end with their defeat right M, whereas the romantic satanicis likable despite their awfulness. This is where I think the distinctionis. It becomes very difficult to ever reconcile the GOTHIC villains crimeswith their sympathetic qualities, and that is an established thing in theirtradition, the only one that might you might be able to. I think it'sFrankenstein well. This is we're still like twenty years before Frangenda thiswant. This is sort of pre the romantic schism year very start of it withredcliff. My point is in in the gothic tradition, they're using Satan andtaking his worst qualities, a kind of going or we could sympathize, butactually we can't because of the worst qualities. That's done to do that,where's, the Romantics there are most of them all of them, love the Gothicand they start to develop an alternative tradition, which is theyhave they're bad, but you like them anyway, so I think the two are workingadjacent to which a her parallel to each other, it's very difficult to finda gothic villain that is genuinely sympathetic, so you're say well oncethey buy definition once they become...

...sympathetic, they no longer proper,Gothic, villains, yeah or there another variation or the next gent. You know,generation of Gothic, villain, yeah right and in her two thousand andseventeen chapter ready for his close off about the transition from horror toromance in the Fane of the Opera Jessica. Sternfeld argues that thefamily offer still fits this mold in its original novel form, right sayingthat we might pity the Phantom- and we might even be drawn to his seductiveideas and he's dark bad boy persona, but he is never less a murderer, adysfunctional and unreformable reject of society, and that Christine has togo with her other love Interest Raoul right. The resolution of the novel isnot. She runs away with the Phantom. It's that she rejects the Phantom andgoes back to side with the normal pretty way. Sorry, it's original formthe fante opera is playing into this. Gothic filled stereotype, yeah, yeah,completely unreconcilable action, false ove riots that, during his initialphase, the gothic villain of the novel, was in somewhat the same situation aswas Satan before he was romanticized by Blake and Shelly. He has attractivecharacteristics, including a striking appearance in the air of the fallenangel and a romantic mystery, but he is not yet a romantic rebel to become aromantic hero. He must take on some of the characteristics of the hero ofsensibility and he must be able to enlist at least a portion of oursympathies in his rebelion against society. I go off at that in my chapter.I think there's more to it than that, but you can come listen to our MI, thepodcast. We also have key and sort of a metafiction analysis, the idea oftradition and literary troops, forcing people to behave in certain ways rightonce the rod starts, writing a novel about a Gothic Villain. This is how thestory has to end right M. so, yes, it is him writing a story, but that's sortof the real world equivalent of why the characters are acting in certain waysin masquerade and things that once the story starts, you have to end at thatpoint: it's not just the character. The character type itself determines theshape of the story. Yeah, I think, is what praches playing with anotheraspect of the goterie or romantic archetypes. That precedes en gave Ginwith is their development through the theatrical tradition yeah. So thisgothic fill in character type has persisted throughout books and andnovels to well at least the the early twentieth century, although, as forslave observes, although the gothic villain remained an unregeneratevillain in the early novels, he became gradually more sympathetic throughouthis theatrical betrayals. Until at last he appeared as half fill in half hearerof sensibility becoming a true romantic rebel and Antihero in the works ofWalter, Scott and Lord Bar Yeah. Okay. So I'm going to do two things here,this theatrical tradition, but also this idea that he he becomes somethingelse: Half Er Villain, a half, hearof sensibility. I think the point is it'sa different hero type. It doesn't go from gothic villain into something else.The gothic gone is sustained as its own character type. It does its thing butwe're starting to get experiments with the gothic villain, so those characterswho have aspects of the Gothic Villon but are actually doing other stuff, andwe would call them a hero of sensibility, a romantic rebel, asatanic hero and, I think, continuing to call them Gothic, villains orstarting to do what fourth live does which shits being is like a half this?It's half that it's a third this. I think it's better to try and look atthe different avenues of characterization. So I say that on topof that, though, with theatrical development. What I think is reallyinteresting here and you can chimin as well Manfred, who is one of Byron's,more interesting characters from his closet dramas. It came out in hadeighteen eventez has aspects of the gothic villain in him and he's quite asympathetic character, but he really gets popular when they start adaptingit for the stage, and I think that's where the Gothic gine starts to get alot of bits. Popularity from similarly Frankenstein fix up popular opinionafter it's adapted for the stage, which is when frank in sign, is sort of dustbe represented as a mad scientist and the creature starts to be representedas a monster. So it's almost like they double down on some of thesestereotypes, rather than acknowledging the complexity, that's developed. Thatapplies to Dracula the fender with the offer itself and, as we talked aboutpreviously right, not an offer not a stage play originally, but is nowprimarily known as the musical yeah. So false love ugus that thistransformation is primarily brought about by the shifting of emphasis fromunmitigated wickedness on the part of the gothic villain to a deep andagonized remorse for past sins, and that's what you're saying or have saidis a definitive aspect of the BIRONIC romatic dark here, yeah yeah, three ofthe more notable playwrights who illustrate this trend, Joe Ada Bailey,Matthew Lewis, who we already mentioned and William South Bee. I only knowmatthew, Lewis, really out of those people do, are you're familiar with asouth being Bailey familiar yeah. I've read the CALTAPA TOR. I haven't readthe others well, but example of Lewis is interesting because of his contrary,portrayal of the Gothic villany in the month, although also of dismisses hisplays as ventures in undisguised commercialism, with no literary merit.That's Hash, I mean I haven't read the castle spectre. Is it? Is it just trashlean? I mean it's trash in the same way, the monk is trash, it's four hundredpages. Is it the monkeys or just like of I mean what he's referring to thereis the development of what we refer to now is like the masculine or theGermanic Gothic, which is, as I said, before, Kara instead of horror, likeactual bear sorry horror instead of terror, actual bad things are happening.That's the problemwell. We've got a bit...

...of this. You know divide between realliterature and populist drama. You Know Opera and general literature that wetalked about in the last part, but nevertheless, as those live also notes,the popular success of these plays was phenomenal, especially that of thecastle spectre. So what this is telling us here or what they suggest is thatthe sympathetic characters up are popular. They are, you know, getting aresponse from the audience that may be the Satanic, complex, gothic villainsand things aren't necessarily reaching, or is it just more to do with theaccessibility of the players themselves than their actual content? I think it'spart of the accessibility and the fact that they are so horrifyingly awful. Itbecomes okay. Well, I have to go and see it now and see what everyone'stalking about it's almost like it appeals to. You know humanity'sobsession with weird and perverse things you know like tiger king takeingis crazy, yeah exactly and everyone watched it because it was crazy. Ithink it's the same sort of thing like have you seen the castle spectre, yougot to go, see it and everyone went and Sore, and it also makes these ideasmore digestible to a popular audience. You know in quick, a five quick aticsession. You can see the degradation of this character rather than a fivehundred page on Obeah. Now Joe Exotic is not a particularly sympatheticcharacter. Yeah, it's South Bes joining in Agnes, however, that Bertrandevidence calls the strangest and perhaps best gothic play in onethousand. Nine hundred and forty seven examination of Gothic drama from worldcalled Shelley, identifying it as the most likely link between the gothicvillain and the bironic hero of virus Manfred, and he says in the Third Act.The plays Gothic villain turned hero of Sensibility. Alphons are divulges thesecret sin that he had lived in a big mess relationship with Agnes and theyoung ellen and had slew Allan's brother in a sudden fit of anger whenhe returned and accused him of being in a big ass relationship. So I thinkthat's it it's weird and perverse. Everyone wants to go and see, and do wewant to explain what a hero of sensibility is quickly touchy, fairlybooks, not so much touchy right, but US feel I they're in touch with their emotionsand Mary a tune to the world around them. They don't kidnap women, theyjust look at them and band cry: Yeah, Literally Cry Beautiful Women. What'sthe the the man of feeling mckenny yeah, that's the sort of definitive hero ofsensibility, novel, which that is literally chapters of this guy, goingto different places where sad things are happening and yeah, I'm cryingabout it as false live notes like barns. Lay to Manfred alphons. are themretreats to the Alps taking up residence in a monastery from which heventures at to rescue lost travellers later being killed by protecting Agnesand ellen from a group of bandits? He says there is then a long repentantscene wherein both women tearfully forgive the villain hero so that heexpires in the good graces of God and Man. It's interesting, because I thinkByron takes this. I well obviously, Byron spent a lot of time in the Alps awanted to write about it, but it was being written about the idea of thehero of sensibility wandering round in the Alps and, like his barons, tryingto live this Gothic villin life as well sort of right. Absolutely! Yes, when wecall it the BYRONIC hero like we've, got a bit of a cycle going on there. Heidentifies with Satan. Quite literally in multiple letters I went through themtoday because I did footnote on them yeah. So the point here they're in thetransition to south beast play, is that the gothic villain is a hero becausethey are ultimately forgiven. Well, they repent and then they are forgiven.Similarly, as Stonefield observes, the Fanton with his incurable disfigurement,must be killed at the end of his story, choosing to disappear in a seeminglynoble act of self sacrifice. In order to save Christine, we your your sort ofrolling your eyes at that. What do what do you recon of? Do? You think heactually disappears as self sacrifice or is it that Christine gets out and hegoes oh well, just e is played as a sacrifice in the later adaptations, butin terms of the actual novel, it's sort of he accepts to feet, yea so much othese switch her size, but he's just like all right yeah. I don't know aboutthat. Yes, so that's how it relates to the fan. Do we see this relating toSela and Walter in Maskrade at all? Not really right. Did we find themsympathetic? I didn't really hot was obviously admit to be sympathetic, buthe doesn't necessarily have to sacrifice himself and sellers aredoesn't repent at all. So I think like something I'm getting at with all ofthis is that I think ses a click. Those are as clearly the Gothic fillin he's ahundred percent Gothic villain he's the one and the machinations and theploding and the mustache twilling, and he does the big Gothic. You knowmonologue in the letters with the multiple exclamation marks andeverything he is clearly a parody of the gothic villain, but he's pittedagainst Walter. Who is this sympathetic ghost? So what improving at is like isproject pitting the gothic villain and the hero of sensibility or the romanticarchetype against each other, and I think that definitely works for Salzar.But I don't know if it works for Walter. I could see it. I would probably arguehas not done very well like what is more of a victim than a hero and toenter the end when he just becomes the like rebel out boss, swash, buckling,sort of villa but yeah. He doesn't have to sacrifice anything or anything likethat. So I don't know if it really fits, but I think there's something there inhis introduction to two thousand and twelve ox of university. Presidin ofFan of the opera dedicate similarly...

...locates the fandom in a series ofdisfigured Gothic villains, including Kuges, COSI, murder and Gwynplaine. Doyou know when playing not at all he's from he eight hundred and sixty innovel, the man who laugh he's literally just the joker he's, a guy who read hisface, cut into a permanent smile and there's a weird clown who grows aroundharassing people yeah so Kazimoto and Gwynplaine frame science, creature, MrHyde and Drakul? Who will talk about more later, as well as characters inParas mask of the red death, the pit and the pendulum and the fall of theHouse of Usha? I think this is interesting because, yes, he's the fanof is a representation of all these creatures, but he's also bothFrankenstein and the creature right. His Oman scientist and the ugly at carshe's Jackal and hired in one o US check on hid a jack in hiding one, but atonce, yeah yeah, no wonder he's having too muchtrouble so there's something going on there I mean we're talking aboutblending, Gothic, villains and heroes of sensibility may be and that thephantom blends, the mad scientist with his monster is Jackin. Hide. Is the goto archetype with that, but yeah as I was trying to get at Jack a Tisultimately able to get rid of hide, yeah and they're still represented asdifferent consciousness within the same body right the different personalitiesyeah. I think that's something- maybe maybe not original but may beinteresting to do with the fan of the opera as coward also points out thecharacters in the fen of the opera autorisees from Blue Beard, Don one andmedian the beast and trilby which, when we were discussing this before- and wewere saying, Oh, is it a parody? What is it is that this is a de rewritingwet the war. We're looking for is pestigeous fanari opera is a pastate inthe pre person. Sense. It's not critique any of this. It's not there'sno comment. It's literally just collecting all the Gothic influencesfrom the last hundred hundred and fifty years and randing them all together andthe fan of the operas. What comes in yeah like Spaghetti the Slavic philosopher Slave Jishaku,simile arkie? The phantoms final self sacrifice represents a final reversalwhereby the agent previously identified as villain suddenly changes into a doneinto a mediator by means of his sacrifice, enabling the hero, salvationand jude notes that this is the same reversal which characterizes popcoacher villains from the ambiguous status of the hitch. Cokin villain upto Darth Bade in the Star Wars trilogy and who one should not forget, alsowears a mask, concealing a distorted of worthies face and plays the role of theAnal father so fond the opera doth fade. I think that's! That's a pretty good atake off his mask yeah Harrison, but also showing the perseverance of thesearchetypes into star wars, and- and we talked about Batman as well so they'rethere continuing in relation to the theatrical development of the gather,Curo in a noto one hand, eigh hundred and twelve collection, a series ofplays in which it is attempted to delineate the stronger passions of themind which contains two gothic plays are off and the dream notes that, whena painter wishes to give intelligence and expression to a face, he does notmake his light sit upon the under part of his chin, the nostrils and theundercard curve of the eyebrows. Turning, of course, all the shadowsupwards. He does the very reverse of all this that the eye may look hollowand dark under the shade of its brow, that the shadow of the nose may shortenthe upper lip and give a greater character of self to the mouth and thatany fulness of the under tin may be the better concealed from this dispositionof the light in our theatres. Whenever an actor whose features are notparticularly sharp and pointed, comes under the front of the stage and turnshis face fully to the audience, every feature immediately become shortenedand snub and less capable of any expression unless it be of theludicrous kind right. So this is describing how people appear on thestage, and you know lights coming from a Bob. It saying there's something likea particular Gothic atmosphere to drama itself, and I also thought this wasinteresting, because that description, they, the shadow of the nerves, mayshorten the upper lip and give great character of sense to the mouth likethis is a sort of describing the phantom's face. I wonder if there'ssomething going on there, where his distortions are meant to be arepresentation of now. Looking up at someone on the stage, do we actuallyget a description of the mosque in masquerade yeah? It's just like a whitemask right M, but this leads us to another common trope of Gothic villains,particularly later ones, which is physical disfigurement. They are townsand notes in his twenty nineteen chapter on the Gothic and the questionof ethics. otherness alterity and violence examples of radical alterityin and of the face proliferate through Gothic text of the twentieth and TwentyFirst Centuries Yeah- and this is certainly true of the Phantom, whoseface is described as having two big black holes set in a dead man's skull,with nasty, yellow skins stretched across his bowings like a drum head andhis noses disturbingly absent Tonson connects this depiction to the weirdcountenances in a tranter Frangese in and poke. I'm not sure about thatbecause his Manfred we're talking about war polls, man, food from a trader he'sdeformed at all, no he's just a duchenois ly he's deformed of spiritright his this in Censuris kidnapping me. I was going to say we youdefinitely say it in Freken Stein and Po and stuff, so I get with the samethere, but I wasn't sure because they specially call out a Tranto and I'mlike, I don't think, there's any actual disfigurement. I mean. What's his name,Falla was saying how handsome early Gothic villains were things already ofred, cliff and Lewis's villains. Yeah they're are pretty sexy, so that's sortof interesting in that they don't start...

...off like that and then get sexy intheir byronize ing, they're already sexy when they're just fillings, yeahthey're, just bad dude. To Look Nice! Beware! Well, it's literally lock upyour daughters, but also that's what they're trying to do so. I don't knowif two wrongs make a right, also on the note of the nose which is sort of themain point of Aristis figment in the Phantom that his whole point where hehas to hide. Aways he's got no nerves. He looks like a skull. So yes, in onethousand nine hundred and ninety nine article grimaces of the real or whenthe Fallis appears this is this is Uso again he explores the usefulness ofinterpreting, high and low culture in comparison to each other through ananalysis of the Phantom of the opera which he calls undoubtedly masscultures. Central appreciation right. This is right at the height of themusical success, so he's sort of doing what we were saying. Fan of the operaand masquerade do he's examining the flattening of high and Lo culture. Thispostman, flattening through an analysis of Fan of the opera, which is a poptreatment of high culture, arguing from a LAKANAL psycho analytic perspectivethat the fantoms noseless face, which repulses even his own mother, was anembodiment of her own penis envy, due to its lack of an excessive feliceprotuberances. Yes, before I saw what you'd written there, I was about to saythat, although he's taking the Piss yeah well, the thing is, though, Ithink he is taking the Piss yeah. This is the sort of thing jusak would do forjust throw this out there. Like a Fred said it, the nose is a Dick. What doyou think can argue with me, for it said it? Yes, you can. Yes, we can doJack Yeah, so bringing this idea of disfigurement back to proche in has two.Then a twenty article about projects thought experiments about the bodywhich we talked about in relation to unseen. academicals in the first forepisode, Peter Hadger similarly observes that the gothic traditionalways use people with artificial implants villains. There is with Hookhands or wooden legs, only exceptionally appearing as lovablecharacters, and he primarily connects this, though projets eagles, who weregoing to talk about more next episode because they first appear in mascarade,but I think it's perhaps more relevant to Maskrade, especially in terms of thegothic tradition. Crochet subverts this trope of the disfigured villain byhaving the non disfigured cells. A are turn out to be the rain villain, whilethe physically awkward wato linge is the sympathetic and attorney heroicgood ghost yeah. No, so I see this, the problem here is like bad has notactually disfigured right, he's just sort of hunched he's, not, I don'tthink he's yet deformed a B, and the other thing is that he shedshis limp and his hunt when he becomes heroic when he puts on the mask andbecomes the Ghost he stands upright and it's very confident. So this isactually sort of reinforcing the trip that you are like. You can't be heroicand hunched yeah. I like to Cazimi a that's a good point. I really wish I'dread: Punch back of Notatam, it's so long, though I'm going off the moviepeople, but he saves Nice in that he does, but also that's the Disney one, ared it yeah sterbold notes when there's a disabled character in a story thatcharacter will usually end up, cured or killed or dead, with the expectationbeing that such a character can be interesting and propel to plot and canhave an impact on the other characters and on the audience, but the charactercannot simply carry on being disabled, so yeah. This is the idea that Walteris cut at the end of masquerade and agnes is sort of also deformed at leastpreches portraying her as right. She is overweight, she's obese to the pointwhere she doesn't fit him with society and then, as we mentioned at the end,granny compliments her on losing weight. So she is also part of this trot. Sothese ideas are definitely connected in Mascara Yeah. That for big, is how soin the original fan of the opera, he's not sure what he's killed. Although ona metal level right, the fantom has sort of been cured of his ugliness astime has gone on and as the story has been adapted as we're about to talkabout so stone, Feld notes in the stage version the original stage version ofFenimore, the fans face is intensely deformed and she argues that we needhis face to be disgusting. For us to be able to, let him be a murderer withwhom we sympathize and she sort of going against his. He wouldn't besympathetic if he was the original gothic villain who was just murderingpeople and was a Disha, but because his this Frankenstein's creature askoutcast. We do sort of sympathize him and it gives him a bit of motivationfor his bad behavior. Okay. She says we need his face to be disgusting for usto weep tenderly at his self sacrifice, but also, of course he can't be withChristine at the end of the book on we bind this. I think we're were buttingagainst. Is The we don't know if the fandom really sacrifices himself yeah,but this is the Frankenstein thing right. The reason why the creature isseen as a sympathetic character because he yeah he as I said: Dale he murders achild and everyone else. I think it's interesting because he is initially abenevolent creature. It's after the society spurns him. He goes, Batchicrazy goes after avenge and yeah it kills a child. So I think yes, it's inhis character, but I think it's more commentary from shally. What happens ifyou are ostracized by society abandoned by everyone? And you know you do getmore of that with the creature, because you get the whole scene of him livingwith the DELACYS and being in the Ardennes and all of that, but in Fanothe opera, we do get his back story that he was shunned by his mother m. Sothe whole thing with Frankenstein being...

...the rejection of the father and it'sthe metaphor, for you know the fall of Adam and even all of that ye in the fanof the opera we get well. He was so ugly. Not even his mother could lovehim. I mean that's it with Frankenstein, isn't it it's like. He was so ugly. HisCreator was like out of my house yeah, so this is an indictment on Perrotin.It is a nurture rather than nature argument in both these books. Part ofit yes, so had also now its. However, the fanoos appearance was greatlysoftened, along with his demeanour during his transition from stage toscreen from theater to film. So we're going to look at some of the familyopera film adaptations now, because I have spent the last week watching themall a e O. Have you seen any of these? Only a couple of youtube videos Iwatched was like this is busy yeah yeah. I don't recommend many if any of but yeah, so the sympathetic turn ofboth the Panaman, the gothic villain, is reflected in his film adaptations,which begin I mean there's earlier French ones and I think there's somelost films, but as far as the English popular tradition, there's the silentone for one thousand nine hundred and twenty five, which is the big famousone that so in that one he's got he's, got a weird mask with this weird paperflap over the mouth, that's very strange, but then he rips that off andhe's sort of this you know giant, headed Zombi, looking o the Fucker, notmy time yeah I mean here he's a very he's. A monster he's portrayed as thisweird he's bold, O mine yeah. So this film was banned in B, all years afterits release for being too horrifying for a general distresd. Now we have thehuman centipede. We know we have the human centipede. I mean this is a bigthing. I actually wrote about this in the island of Dr Moro, because that wasone of the last films ever band because of not the actual pore elmets, but theanimal dissections and things in a good reason yeah. So this film was bannedfor being horrifying, but also we already see this sympathetic changebecause, like this is a siren film that comes up with the dialogue in the titlecars in between the scenes and one of the things the fence says that sits onthe screen is by him to change your love. Will Redeem me put the owners onthe woman right, but this is again the fringed tin thing is: I need a wife togo away and be peaceful. So that's where we're starting. Then you get theuniversal film from one thousand nine hundred and forty three. So it is, itis mask form I've got. He looks very much like the Green Harnet yeah, whichwas around at the same time in the forties, so he's sort of taking on that.You know master hero, Zoro thing like the early popes of Batman and thinghe's represented as a heroic type. In his mask, rather than a phantom typeand then yeah, so you take the mask caff. The side of his faces burn he'shot. That, though, right like he's, not my type but he's not that ugly, if Nickgot burnt that way to morrow, I hope he doesn't. I wouldn't care this. One,though, was relevant to mask grade in this movie. The reason why the fammy ofthe operate is disfigured is, but even though, with this one, it's more of a ahorror depiction that I do think you see at least aesthetically referencethroughout later horror stuff. Here we get a definitive self sacrifice,because this film ends for very abruptly by the Phantom is watching theperformance of the play which, in this is about Joner rather than fast, andsees that the chandelier is going to fall on Christine. So he stands up inthe audience and throws off his mask and runs on to the stage and pushes herout of the way and he gets squashed and it zooms up on his face and that's theend of the felt guy does one good thing at the end and suddenly he's a heroright, but that's the logic comfy a yeah right you get kicked out of onehouse, you kill a child, you real doesn't take much is sort of less disfigured, but moredisfigured. Yeah Yeah. I wouldn't no thank you, but he's no. I mean heshould be allowed in society. He should be allowed in society. Then we'rejumping to the most recent adaptation of the Fenm of the opera before massgrade comes out is maybe the TV fil F, one thousand nine hundred and ninetysoring Charles Dance. As the fan of junior, who Charles Dances Colusa knowwho shouts dance is who sholdes is an actor? Is a British at what I want? What am I missing here orwho does he play? Obviously Tian Lannister? That's her is gone for yeahhe's Tamanes, he's also that guy in the he wears the span deck and he's a meme.He is the SPANDEX and he's a man. He does a dance thing. Spadix dancy manhang on here. It is Tien Le us to shake an as I have seen this, but I don'tknow what it is from. I is from leg into house. Oh yes, he's time in Lanista, let starshim as a rather spave yeah he's hot. I didn't Actually Watch this one lookspretty good in the the fandor mask there and I wasn't actually able tofind a picture of him without the mask without watching the film, although, asI have pointed out very slip, not looking again yeah. My big take awayfrom all of this is that the guitarist from slipping it based is ask on Fam withe opera, and that gives it full horror, credibility. So he's looking abit more save in this run, although this version of the fan of the upraiseactually adapted from Arthur coppets book of his stage, musical, which Dabeione thousand nine hundred and nine one apparently is a book version, onethousand nine hundred and Ney, because this TV movie comes on on n ninehundred n in so I think the TV movie came out before the stage way, I'm notreally sure on the timeline on this one, but in this version again e along withhim looking more handsome, we have to...

...flip where it's the fan as mother, whois the only one who accepts him rather than rejects on that's creepier?Somehow, though, isn't it well? This is Jason, Voyes, mother from Friday, thethirteenth also who the other guitarist from slip night. I've just realizedbased his mask off the Jason for he's character, so the guitarist of SlipRight Jason for he's and the Fenimol the opera they do with the hockey maskokay, you know the go over the hockey mask and them shitty. It's ringingbells right. So this is your big slasher. Icons are Michael Wires fromHalloween, Freddy Cruger, who we're going to get two Ondra second and JasonVoyes who's the hockey mask guy, but in the original Friday the thirteenth filmhe's not in it the hockey mask guy the story of o. The third eighth is thatthere was a kid whose was disfigured deformed right and he was at a schoolcamp and everyone was bullying him and me to him, and he was drowning in thelake and all the counselors like stood and laughed at him rather than tryingto help him and then there's rumors that while he came back and startedmurdering everyone at the counts rankins an yes right, but it turned out to be in the twist ofthe first movie. Is it's not him? It's his mother who is taking her revenge onthe councils their enough honestly, but then in later films? It's just him. Hecomes out of the lake and he says on be, and then he goes to space. I guess this is where practice gets. MrsPlans from I macerated his mother who's, a nice team. So I think prached is yeah,maybe basing his version less off the Weber music, an maybe off this musicalor this TV movie. At least in that aspect, that was a TV movie. The mostrecent film, film or significant film adaptation of Fen of the opera beforeMasca came out was from a yearly from one thousand nine hundred and eightynine, and this is a slasher that optation of fan the opera starringRobert England Free Kruger himself, which we've got the posters there fromnightmare of alm street next to the Fantom of the opera post up they'revery much going for the fantom is Freddy Crew Yeah? Okay, because FreddyCrig is whole thing. I got to give you slash O lo now Freddy Cirkis hole thingis that he was a pedophile who the parents of the town banded together andburnt to death right. They led his house on fire with him inside, but thenhe comes back as a ghost and haunts people in their dreams. But that's whyhis face is like that, because it's like scaring from being burned, but hewas a pedophile. So why? What he's? A bad guy- oh he's, just a bad guy yeah.I don't like him the point I'm making there is. You cansee that they're really just trying to ape the whole Freddy Kugai me anessentially putting Freddy Kruga on the post up for the fat of the opera. Thisis the one movie. This is the one I've dead adaptation of all of these that Irecommend, because it's sick, okay and it's a it's a fast and thing as well,because it's bad a lady who finds his dumb one triumphant thing and recitesit and then get sent back in time and then she ends up inspiring the wholething. This is the Fred Krige one yeah. This is the free crude one, because thestory here is that Eric that the fend the opera sold his soul to a devil, toget the dumb one triumphant score. So it's a whole fast and story. He doeshave a fake nose that falls off. He also comes down and Zoro some guys inan Ali way which we get in mascarade as well. You can't really see, but as likestitches, his face back together and he's like falling apart, because that'sthe the curse of the demon and stuff anyway, this movies cool, but that'ssort of the exception to the to the train. Otherwise, we've seen aprogression of him. Getting more and more hands are more and moresympathetic, more and more heroic. Until we get to the two thousand andfour Joe She Maka adaptation of the Andrew led Weber play which, as youmentioned, stars Gerard Butler. This is three years before three hundred. Thisseems more beauty and the beast: doesn't it very much so you got therose? Obviously Oh yeah and Lloyd. We adile claims he cast your it, but lastsince he fit his idea of the phantom o somebody with an edge who representedthe sort of dangerous man who has a rough rock and roll sensibility, soByron, Sir Faering, with she mecca describing the two suiters as I studmuffin. That's no he's the pretty boy, and this insane Charismatic Madman whohas this incredible sexual pull on her, who he described as every deadnightmare come true Virin. So here you know, the fandom is beingcast and portrayed specifically as a sexually enticing character. Right he's,not just sympathetic he's meant to be attractive and alluring, yeah we'd,both Bang Him. Wouldn't we, oh, I don't know, he's very annoying in the movie.He doesn't have to talk during a don nor I'd. Let him kick me into a pit,that's three hundred, but also he takes he where's a coupleof Mars, and you see here the second one, the black mask very Zornoza. Thisit looks like Antonio Banderas m you can see. His face is fine. His face isfine. His faith, his face is fine. He and then somehow, when he pulls offthis mask of his face, is disfigured and he's missing. Clumps of hair andeverything. This movie is terrible and the sternfeld notes, the mild makeupand the explanation for all the magic tricks in the Tumacacari helps renderthe phantom entirely human. He is no longer an angel or a ghost or a monster,or even a magician. He is a slightly disfigured man with a sad past, Byron,literally Biri, literally fucking Byron.

His leg was a bit shoddy, facks bar wasdisfigured, come on yeah. How were talking, he had a club leg m stone,felt, observes critic took note of the phantoms softened depiction with onefilm review, pointing out that the fantoms deformity looked like it couldbe solved with just a little clearer cell or another noted that when themask comes off he's simply not ugly enough, but as stifel notes, this makeup choicerenders the phantom a viable choice for Christine, at least in theory, furtherarguing that the final factor in the film version, as compared to the stageversion that renders the phanomachus more viable candidate for Christine'slove, is a feature that both Lloyd Weber and Schumacher repeatedly playedup in the interviews and discussions of the film, which was the youth of thecast, the shoemaker saying that he believed the story only worked if itwas understood as Christine's sexual awakening because of her attraction tothe Phantom. So they are explicitly portraying him as more of a temptressrather than a villain he's. Not Someone who kidnaps a lady realizes the wrongsof his ways and does the good deed and redeemed he was always the sext cast.Yeah Yeah Baroney Ron didn't invite Claer clam on over. She sent him aletter right. So all this adds up to me because I don't think there's somethinghere in that Walter pleines, the sexy Barna careers he's not now he's notattractive. I thought we were going somewhere with like Agnes Mitano withhim. I guess she's sort of attracted to the Phantom. She enjoys the attentionfrom that. I guess maybe, but I don't think it's really there like cells are,is definitely the Gothic fillot project quite hits this. No, I don't, I think,a yeah, but as far as the fame of the opera itself right on top of it being apastate, a combination of the gothic villain and the the symmetric Roman orthen in its own adaptation follows that trend are from foust to Don Lantriumphin right, the success of the Webber musical and the shoemaker filmand the image of the fan of the opera that we have in culture today. As thissexy hunk, that is done in trionic yeah not did I do it yeah you did it it, youdid it. I did a Q, someone who didn't take this transition too well, wasTerry Pratchett himself revealed in an interview with science fiction weeklyfrom the year two thousand, that mascarade started in a state of quiet,fury, an anteater explaining that the phantom killed innocent people whoseonly crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time now, according toweathers musical. This is okay. As long as you look good in a mask and a takinin the end, you give it all up. For that. I don't think so I don't thinkthat's the case. You can't just dismiss the fact that people got killed. So Iread the original work and I saw the movie which the Andrew Lad Weber. Filmhasn't been done there, so I don't know which movie he's talking about. I thinkmaybe the TV movie with man astern it and he says you knew there was a storythere, so projects mad at him, but also, I think there is some legitimacy to heis engaging with this transition in masquerade. He is pitting he is pittingthe original gothic villain against what it's BECOMIN MAS grade, even if Idon't think he quite taps into the romantic aspect as much is this a goodplace to talk about Greba, so we've established that the fenm of the operais Byronic. You said Gray, Bos biotic, but he's not bironic he's a bit morebyronic here in the way I said at the start, episode about the way. Nanny andgranny are talking about him. That he's is he an Ara, Aristocratic Nice Guy oris it just an Ishoe byronic right ther? The answer was bark. We Yeah Yeah. Ithink the jerk there is that you know aristocrats are ous holes yeah, butalso there's that tradition of them being like Swa sexy dudes as Grebo isbut he's also an asshole because he's a cat. But to give you the description ofGreba that granny weatherwax gives in masquerade, Grebo, fully clothes stillmanaged to communicate the nakedness beneath the insucces, the long sideBurns and the tussled black hair, combined with the well developedmuscles to give the impression of the more lash kind of buccaneer or aromantic poet who had given up on the opium and tried red meat. Instead, hehad a scar running across his face and a black patch now, where across the eye,so we've got a bit of the Gothic disfigurement coming in there and whenhe smiled he exuded an easy air of undestined excitingly dangerous lessevise. He could swagger, while asleep grebe could in fact commit sexualharassment simply by sitting very quietly in the next room. That's aBiren move yeah! So is this spot byronic yeah? This is more byronic thanthe last time we saw gray bro. Absolutely. I guess yeah he's stillmissing the sulkiness yeah and it's not like fully developed it's more theaesthetic, it's the aesthetic of the Byronic Cura who can commit sexualharassment by being in the next room, but he's not a developed figure. That'skind of my point is the baron. A cure now is just like: Oh Yeah, you do theBingo of the aesthetic rather than the examination of the characterization,and what elements go into it. Yeah he's missing the sentimentality and theimmersion AL depth. This is jared. Butler right would be coster, but LASGreber yeah. He is a cat man yeah that works, so the fantoms transition frommurderous monster to Bironic love interest is also a reminiscent of themodern transition of vampires which...

...we're going to talk about next episode.But I do want to tease a quick connection to the fan of the opera,which also suggests some kind of logic to prech its progression throughout thewitches series right, ignoring equal rights, which is sort of its own thing.We insist, as we've got Shakespeare in the theater. I guess that's fairy talesin there as well, but the theater through the opera through the vampires.I think there was a progression that mirrors the cultural progression aswell throughout this series, but going back to Gothic came right. The Fan ofthe opera is also represents the vampire archetype, both in the book andOne Thousand Nine Hundred and twenty five sin film. He sleeps in the coffinand Christine confesses that she has never seen him in daylight. There'salso a thing all through carper jug them where project describes Steve AirPLIES is wearing opera, dress of which is their black cloaks and things, andyou also have in mass grade not be in de Trites, considering whether theghost possibly turned into a back and flew away when grebe disappears. Soproject is hinting at this connection between Batwas and fan of the opera,but I haven't actually found that many scully or popular references to it,although I think the family, the opera, might have as much to do with varpaportrayals. As Dracula I mean I guess this is also. The Fan of the opera is apesticoats w. much is the fan of the opera playing off the theatraladaptations of Tauler itself, but in terms of the Brudy byronic vampirethat's sort of creeping into the fan of the opera before it gets established inthe vampire tradition, I think yeah, Oh and another connection to the vampiresis because I've been going through in preparation for Carpajo er and makingthis big table of all the different characteristics at shop and all thesevampire novels. It's going to be a fun time find couple episodes in yourfuture, but something one trop of put is getting shot and disappearing. Okay,so, like you know, they think they've shot someone and they go and check andthey vanished. That is something that happens in vampire stuff all the timeand it's something that happens to the fan of the offer. I don't know if thatfirst happens, but it happens earlier in Viney, the vampire which is sort ofthe first famine thing after buying it happens in that. So I think this is atrope of pups at the time, but it doesn't appear in any other vampirethings until the fan of the opera and now it has sort of become a chip ofvampire fiction. So I wonder how much that was established by fan of theopera and these theatrical plays, but yeah we'll talk more about that nextepisode. Think that's everything. I've got will be back next time to talkabout Copa Jago by and wile. That's all for this episode of unseenacademicals ther'll be another one along in a month, but if you can't waituntil then you can sum up to patronage and get all the episodes of full monthin advance on with any bernus episodes or specials that end up doing if you'reafter more of us, Alice, harsher and podcast of the Devil's Party, whichtraces, the development of the satanic era for out romantic and Gothicliterature thinks to a Bible. Other thing for today show along the De fullyreference to foot note. Transcript should be available in the PSOEdescription thanks for listening and stay change. Some amusing attics, which I guess I already asked you ifyou say no, for as I was going to take this as an opportunity to ask what yourfavorite opera was, and I can see what you've put I left it in there. Do Iwant o you no do it. Let's pretend I what's Yo Ju a space, yeah clever. What did you say last week that set meup? Oh the Panto op Chopra ye papera pleas, ayeah, yeah they're right, that's the correct response, a as for, like you know, three and ahalf minutes thought it was funny you joined or you did as gain in themornings. Frow wow there's a weird sobby sound comingthrough my microphone to either to you or in the recording. I just want topoint out that that is preche the cat grooming himself furiously on the otherside of my desk. I can't hear it, but I'm so glad he's doing that good forhim. I of you preach it.

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