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5B – Lords and Ladies - Part 2

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Our second part on Lords and Ladies, exploring evolving literary and cultural representations of elves and fairies through the works of William Shakespeare, J. R. R. Tolkien, T. H. White, Lord Dunsany, Rudyard Kipling and more!

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts  

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com 

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod  

Hey there. Before we get into the episode, I just want to take a second to think our new patreon subscriber Dan. We signed up at the six dollar level, I believe, or it's four pounds for him, and he got the episode you're about to hear. He's had that for a few weeks now. So if you want to get all of our episodes early, be like Dan and sign up there. Thanks Dan, thanks for your support. Really appreciate it. If you want to be as cool as Dan, you to can sign up to support unseen academicals at Patreoncom Dr Prometheus pod probably going to end up changing that name, but that's what it is for now. And another reason you might want to do that at the moment, other than just because you appreciate our work and want to give us some money, is we've just uploaded our first ever bonus episode which, as we mentioned at the end of last episode, is on the World Fantasy award at winning midsummer nights stream issue of Neil Gaiman's comic book series the Sandman. The whole episode is over two hours. We compare GAYMANS treatment of Shakespeare to that of Pratchett and Lords and ladies, and we also examine the history of Shakespeare, comics and fairy illustration, fairy connections to the underworld, Faustian bargains, the history of Puck and his reverse Pandora tolkin's opinions on fantasy and drama, as well as the origins of drag and the League of extraordinary gentleman, among other things. I will be putting out a preview of the first part of that episode in the coming weeks, but since this is a bonus episode, the full thing will not be uploaded to the public feats. If you want to hear the rest of that, you will have to sign up to the patreon. Oh, we do mention a couple of times in this episode that we're going to look at the representation and treatment of fairies in Edmund Spencer's every problem, the fairy Queen, which we managed to bring up every episode anyway, seems like an appropriate place to discuss it here, given that this episode focuses on historical and literary depictions of fairies and Fairy Queens, but we were waiting on a few extra resources from the library things. For those are who are nowhere, we're in Melbourne, Victoria, in Australia, which is currently in the middle of. I think I'll sixth lockdown and a couple of weeks else and I will both be spending our second birthdays in as many years in lockdown. And yes, there's been a bit of a delay getting some resources and things. So the plan was to record that once we had the books and then edited into the episode, but we still haven't got the resources and things yet. So when we do end up getting those resources we will recording at Dendom that I will put out on the public feed separately and then editing into the episode in future. But if you're hanging out to hear some very queen analysis, we haven't actually recorded that yet because of covid given just how long and in depth this Neil game and bonus episode ended up being, there maybe a bit of a delay on the next proper episode on Masquerade Beca. So I'll sorry. Alice works about four different jobs and is and is up to our neck in marking and things at the moment, so she's very busy. But we'll get it out as soon as we can and the people who will get it first, before anyone else, are the people on the patron so if you want that as soon as it's ready, go and sign up there, just like Dan again. That is Patreoncom Dr Prometheus Pod, thanks for your support. This world. It's this world analysis. Yeah, so I'm Josh, I'm Alice. Well, you on seen academicals went back for part two onlaws and ladies, which we're not really going to talk about laws and ladies at all so much a little bit. As I sort of tried to clarify at the end of the last podcast, they were in the mode where we're looking from Pratchett outside. So we're using Lords and ladies as a Lens to look at talk about the origins of elves and fairies and their influential treatments by talking Shakespeare, kipling, Edmund Spencer and more. We're also, I said this wasn't going to be a three part but we're hoping to do a bonus episode about Neil gaiman's midsummer night's dream. So if you're expecting to hear something about that here, it's going to be in the bonus episode. So we won't be covering that. And but yeah, we're going to be talking a lot about elves and they're changing representation over the years. Else how do you feel about elves. They're fine. I guess they're fine. You got a favorite Elf? I have. My favorite Alf was my best friend, who was a dark Elf in his laughing community. Is that alone good? I have where he does you have a specific character? Yeah, it's like any makes costumes for himself. And he drove haafaway across Melbourn for a sword before lockdown. So you know, I appreciate the the Hustle. This is row on, your co host on your other podcast, now, the podcast which you should all go across and listen to. We're about to do book knight a Faradas last fool, I mean I said last episode I like a good dark of thank and I realize I'm mostly just talking about how boy two is is pretty sick. Okay, that's where I'm at. I never got into the drist books. That's a bit of a fantasy hole in my my knowledge. The what drist? No, I haven't either. Then, so drist is. It is the Dark Elf guy. Okay, because in drist is a dudgeons and dragons character. Of course that's in the the forgotten realms thing that there's a whole book series and he's like your Broody Dark Elf man. So you probably fit pretty well into your whole dark hero I'm cares. Yeah, very popular and I thought, I believe it's the S. I think...

Maddie's read the books, but I haven't, and I feel like I feel like there's a specific window for getting into dressed, like it's sort of a early teens sort of time and I've Um past that. But also I've been on a big Elf kick because we're about to discover I've ready every book that's ever been written about elves in the last month so, except for the drist one. So maybe I need to go and while I'm in the mood. Yeah, so, along with the with all the books about elves themselves, I've also read a bunch of histories of elves and fairy literature, the most accessible and comprehensive of which was probably Norman Talbert's one thousand nine hundred and ninety six article, where do elves go to? That's talking and a fantasy tradition wherein he traces developing representations of a northwestern European elder race who are wiser and more in touch with both natural powers and magical power, for whom he considers the most satisfactory term to be Elf, since fairy has become degraded and miniaturized. M obviously what Pratchett's talking about in Lords and ladies, which tell but calls the most brilliant, sustained attack upon the prestige, morality and personal hygiene of the high elves. Yeah, this article specifically about the Tolken esque representation of valves which, I think, as much as lords and ladies is this meant, is primarily a parody of a midsummer stream in Shakespeare. What Pratchett is really writing back against is the talken depiction of lels which comes along in the s and indeed in his one thousand nineteen and Ninety Two hillcomb program Book Essay elves were bastards, which is the one we were talking about, where he has a go at our Disneyland and everything. He begins this s so claiming that he was coming to hate being called a fantasy writer, since the genre had become over one with so much round eyed worship of mine, numbing myths, mindless recycling of ancient cycles, and I'm thinking escapism. And he claims to have been particularly in sense by a recently written fantasy book where in one character told another character he will grow wroth, and and Pratchett took offense to this kind of haughty, Torty tolkenesque language. I can't find what books he's talking about here. I can only find the line he will grow wrath in a one nine hundred and twenty play called a percussios untold tale by Harry Kemp, okay, and nineteen thirty two book of poetry, and in one thousand eight hundred and ninety one article from Any York Medical Journal. That's what comes up if you just throw this phrase into Google. So I don't know which book he's talking about here, but I think practice point is this is any book that you could pick up of a fantasy self in the early S. Hmm. But yes, he particularly takes aim at all the talcom worshippers who claims have reheaed talken's work until the magic has spoiled away. So he's very explicitly positioning himself against talcom worship here. And, Lords and ladies, is his attempt to reclaim elves, who he describes as cruel bastards and claims were never noble. And he draws on a vast history of fairytale literature to do so, which we're going to examine now. So, as mentioned in part one, project befriended the folklore of discworld co author Jacqueline Simpson while researching for CARPA Juggulum, which led him to giving the British folklore societies nineteen ninety one Catherine Briggs Memorial lecture titled Imaginary World's Real Stories Cool and there, and he recalls tearing through his local libraries folklore section like a chainsaw, calling brewers dictionary of freeze and fable the first and last resort in matters of a mythical nature. In fact, project wrote the forward to the Millennium addition, also published in nineteen ninety nine, where in he considers some of the dull and NYMPHS and more obscure classical items dropped from the new addition to make room for more up to date references, like Gandalf, which I'm surprised it took until nineteen ninety nine for Gandalf to be considered a yeah, significant canonical fantasy figure. There it's fifty years, basically. Yeah, but Pratchett hoped that a preservation addition might one day be released. So that this detritus of myth and legend is not forever lost. So here again he's trying to reclaim the old folklore traditions. And indeed the nineteen ninety nine entry on elves is markedly different from the nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety one versions that would have been available to Pratchett when he was writing Lords and ladies. So both the earlier and millennium additions describe elves as originally dwarfish beings of German origin who were possessed of magical powers which they use for the good or ill of mankind. So yeah, this is this indifferent or a moral version of als we're getting in Lords and ladies. Yep, and the dictionary notes that the name was letty used for a malignant and then for fairly creatures that dance on the grass in the full moon and so on. That's a direct quote from the dictionary. It's a dictionary. Don't have to be specific in a dictionary, Gosh. Yeah, and they specifically quote the description from Shakespeare's new midsummer arts dream that says every elephant, fairy sprite hoppers light as a bird from a briar. So here we're seeing Shakespeare's midsummer ice dream, the portrayal of fairies and elves. They're being the definitive. For example, come one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, which, by the way, something I need to clarify. Alf Fairy. These terms have been used interchangeably pretty much until tolkin. I think tolken's the turning point where he goes no, this is what an Elf is, and he gets really iffy about people, editors changing Alf with a V to Alpha with an F and things. He gets all offended. Yeah, we had that with Dwarf and Dwarven. Yeah, he doesn't surprise me. I mean he was a linguist, so makes sense that that was what he was up at he about. So we will go into that in a bit more detail in the following section. But yes, when we're throwing around fairy...

...and now for essentially talking about the same thing, unless we're talking about postalken. The earlier entries in brous dictionary, however, connect the words Alphin Goblin etymologically with the thirteen century Italian factions girls, gibble hinds, welphs and Ghibbillins. This is all in Dante. This is. So all will tell me about Dante like there's no alves and dance. But are we talking inferno? Dante of painted? Yeah, as it was an important conflict, political conflict that led to a lot of the characters and the representation of characters in in Dante's divine comedy. So That's interesting. Yeah, because the takeaway I got from that was that this is why olves and Goblins, which we see again in Tolken, are up it on opposite sides. HMM, they're actually analogies or derived from opposing factions originally. Well, interesting, and bring that up because that was something else Peter suggested, and this, I should say, is just Peter's opinion, so don't add him. Peter Grows is the Shakespeare man at Monash. Yes, we were talking about it and I said, well, where do where do you think elves come from? Do you know, like what's your take on it? And he said that he thinks that Alves are the way colonizing and like old, old old, like pre you know, Greek, even ancient Greek colonizers, would refer to indigenous inhabitants that they pushed off land whenever they moved in, because they'd come back and, you know, fuck with everything because they wanted their land back and so they gave them the sort of malignant characterization to them as elves. Yeah, that's that's where he thinks the ideas come from, and I just thought that was interesting and worth repeating, even if there's nothing to it, because I gets inverted later, like when we were talking about the ORCS. The ORCS but become colonized. Who are the savage, racist or whatever, and we're all so going to see. We're going to talk a little bit about the Arthurian legends, where then the British start to identify with as Alves, as elves, but that's because they've been dispossessed. Yeah, they're trying to reclaim their land and heritage from like the normans and the picks and things. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's where he was sort of talking about. It was like yeah, celts and picks and things and even older than that. So yeah, another origin perhaps for the term ALF is the Norse Alpha and German ALP, which means nightmare, which the Millennium Edition of Brows Dictionary connects to the German succuby. What's the difference between a Germans occupy and drew other average succuby. I'll know that the SUCCUBI wasn't German. The the term ALP was. But he's saying that this here in German is connected to the idea of the SUCCUBI, which I have decided it succuby, not succubusses, because I remembered the cradle of filth beside collection is called bitter sweets to succuby, bitter sweets to Succu by, Oh my God. Okay. So yes, as I mentioned, although distinguished in modern fantasy and folk, are the terms of elphinferry, which traditionally used interchangeably to refer to the same sort of creature. You know, think, think about like Christmas elves. What Christmas elves? Valves? What Make Sanders? All Right, okay, Sanders Alves. Yeah, so when we've say oh, they're elves, right, we're not thinking about Tokens Kai archery. No, no, I think it like these little mischievous sprites, almost m but as jackeline Simpson explains in her two thousand and eleven article on the ambiguity of elves, the Germanic word Alf was a standard word in English until the thirteen century, whereas gradually phased out in favor of the French fairy or Faye. So their distinction later becomes solidified through Tolkien. But this is they were originally alas, and then the thirteen surd century they become fairies and then later on the twenty century they become separate ideas. But the older citation of fairy in the OED comes from the anonymous middle English poem so offio from about thirteen thirty. There's different manuscripts and things. There's some other examples, also from thirty, but this is the original literary example of it. and Sir Offia might be known to modern fantasy raiders because it was translated by Tolkien himself, and posthumously. So the most wellknown version of surfare now is filtered through talking, and it's also the first thing I ever taught as a tertiary educator. Yeah, do you want? You've read this as well? Yeah, I mean I was sitting in on the unit the you taught it. Are you weren't in my classes, though. WHO said? I came to all the lectures and things. I was going to go to Chris's but then I pussy it out they should have come in. We could have been like from absolutely should have. Well, yeah, I was going to say do you want to do you want to give a summary of the story or the broad summary? King off your's wife, Queen Heritici, falls asleep under a tree and is kidnapped by fairies. So offio enters into an underworld, like fairy Queen Kingdom to rescue her. They lived like hermits in the wadness for a decade until a former servant the bards weak and discovers them and restores them to the throne. Yeah, so it's essentially a mashup of orpheus with fairy folklore and that bit of the Book Daniel in there as well, with the King Wandering in the Wilderness. Now that's a blaming, to be more humble, sort of thing. It's interesting to me because when the king of fairies first sighted, he is hunting in the woods with a pack of dogs and other fairy hunters. We saw spokes us like who sir,...

...like acting on a story of back to you. No, I don't know if it's relevant. It's in Ovid I think there's some other versions, but famously, acting on is hunting in the woods with all of these hunting friends and his dogs and then he happens to see Diana bathing with her nymph friends and Diana gets really offended and then sets his own dogs on him. Now it turns him into a deer and then his dogs eat him. Is that relevant? Yeah, because Diana is very much like the fairy tradition and Diana coalest with the Diana's the hunting goddess, right, yes, and the goddess of chastity and Motherhood. Yeah, so this is all tied up with fairy folk or and as we saw last episode, there's like a connection between elves and fairies and hunting. But it's interesting to me because it says that although he's hunting in the woods with a pack of dogs and other fairy hunters, it says yet never a beast they took nor slew. So the hunters who aren't hunting, like it's sort of a piece with nature, almost vegetarian thing, but they are the hunter. I got ideals. It's strange now I get that that was my childhood. Yeah, so they're represented as sort of this peaceful nature sprites. But then when we get to the Kingdom of fairy do you want to read this one, since you're good at poetry. So orfeo began to gaze about. And so within the walls are route of folks that were there drawn below and mourned. Is Dead, but we're not so. For some, Mosteard, who had no head and some no arms nor feet. Some bled and all and through their bodies wounds were certain. Some were strangled as they ate, and some way reading, chained and bound, and some in water, had been drowned, and some are with it, in the fire, and some on horse and walls attire. And why's there laying their childbed and mad with some and some would it, and passing many their labor side, as though they slept at quiet noontide. Thus in the world was each one court and they're the both fairy magic caught. So we got. We got walls of tortured fairies and things. When I was teaching this, I was right in the middle of my hell raiser kick. I was gonna say, I'm going guys, this is hell raised. Are The the center bites. The fairies are the uncaring, hedonistic spirits who come and torch you for fun. As pressure would say, elves were bastards. They were, they are all. Do you know about Sir Gawayne? This is what I meant to read and I never got around to it. A little bit. I don't know if I remember the story fully. I know it's about to come out as a movie. Oh okay, I can look this up and we can record it and added in for the Sam man thing. Yeah, it was all actually why you mentioned the Salmn thing. This, this image from Sir Offio is very similar to the way hell is depicted in Neil game and Sanman. We are okay, samantows up to a wall of just made out of tortured bodies and things. So you know. Apparently there's some reference to elves in Beowulf and Circa Wayne, but I couldn't find it from a brief search. I didn't get around to reading Sir Gawayne. It's also another thought theory I thought you might find it interesting, is that, according to M Katherine Briggs Extensive One nine hundred seventy eight investigation, the vanishing people aren't Scottish and Celtic mythology and folklore often posts that fairies are fallen angels. Who is deduced by Satan and got stuck on earth during the descent to hell. That's better. We should go with that. So they were getting a direct connection between devils and fairies. In Scandinavia they are more commonly considered the hidden children of Eve or sometimes Lillis. That's better. Yeah, bringing it around definitely. Antonio Lawless also suggests fairies as being another source for the witch in her aspect as the wild woodland sorceress, in that they are almost, but not entirely human and have power over animals and love mischief. So all there's this Devil Fairy Elf which iconography is all massed and tired until we have a sort of modern fantasy delineates them all for a long time. These are all aspects of the same sort of folklore ideas, but, as both Talbot and Stephanie Gibbert Observed, very stories and most often reinterpretations of too specific old English ballads, being Tamlin and Thomas the Rama. Do you know either of these? This is the only thing. I put a note next to him as like I've never heard of this before. Right. Well, we'll talk more about these specifically. Tam Lynn, which is the Song Magrat remembers about the woman who jolly well got on our horse and went and rescued her fiance when he's kidnap by elves. That's that's the story of Tam Limb. But this provides the foundation for the first tiffany aching novel that we freemen. So remember that one. Okay, cool, that was one of my favorites. Yeah, we'll talk about that more when we get to that book in four years, because we're going to do the tiffany aking books right away. It is. But Thomas Rahmer is a very similar story, except that no one goes to rescue Thomas from Elf land. These are Tam Lene and Thomas the Rama. Are the names of the two characters that kidnaped by the fairy queen. Hmmm. So in Tam Lene's fiance goes a rescues him, and Thomas the Roman, no one goes to rescue him and he's essentially imprisoned as the fairy Queen's Ward for seven years. But then he's returned later out of time. So Time's past for everyone else, but he comes a still young, as office. Office has taken it from that. Cool and, as we'll see, game, and also Gaman. Yes, yeah, yeah, but he comes back and he has he hasn't aged and he has enhanced powers of art and prophecy. So it's a bit more pertinent to lords and ladies through the powers that the fairy queen offers to granny weather, wackx and diamander, but it's still more relevant to the wee free men. So Wa, so come back to it then. But usually, yeah, these are you two modes of English Elf stories that you have going forward from here. Are someone's been captured by the ELVES, we have to go rescue them, which is sir off you Ol as well, or someone's been mysteriously taken away by...

...elves, is a prisoner but comes back and powered. Two modes of stories, and I think Lords and ladies is sort of more directly criticizing the second one in resisting the Elf's Queen offers of empowerment. That's fair, yes, and some fasty and stuff that it's the temptation, still the temptation thing again, but it's fastly in the sense that you do have to give up the one thing you love. Like that's the interesting thing about fast as, I think, is at the end, you know, he goes from being the scholar who knows everything to all burn my books, which a is just travesty, but be it really shows that it's not just his soul, is his very being that is being corrupted anyway. For All of this, keep it at a will, bottle and and store it for when we get to game. And that's exactly what he's dealing with. Of Yes, that's your background image of the Elf that Pratchett is trying to reassert in lords of ladies, but what he's more directly subverting is the Shakespearean version of fairies from midsummer night's dream, but also jr Tolkien's archetype or high elves, who have become one of the dominant figures of one fantasy literature. As Talbot States, any story in which Alf like beings are thoroughly menacing, cruel or a different to human ethics is almost forced to avoid both the term Alf and any hint of direct influence from Tolkien. So much of good elves now identified with his work. Interesting. I think that's that's true to an extent, although I disagree with it in theory. I think maybe people are under selling talken's depiction of OLS or or simplifying it, as will get to. Rather than English fairy folk talken's elves are far more to the Norse traditions and Eleventh Century Icelandic poems which tell of masculine Godlike Alpha or ACA or Vanier, which are words that talking adopts for the Silmarillim. The thirteen century mythographer snory Stillson, which might be in now another Pratchett dwarf there, along with nut are nuts and like it if they had cameos in now one of the books. But snory Stillson tells of tells of light elves and subterranean black skinned dark elves, which has become a fairly common fantasy trope. Ray. This is the Hel way tooth or two representation of the dark. Else the durist thing. However, Simpson says that no other contemporary sources mentioned any dark elves at all. I haven't been able to verify this myself, so I'm trusting her. But she speculate. speculates that Stealson might actually be referring to dwarfs. HMM, fair tell. But also notes that dark elves are usually portrayed as being smaller than humans in the Icelandic and our norse traditions, although he describes them as ORC like rather than Dwarven, noting that both they and the light elves, who he describes as being not much interested in or respectful of, clumsin models like us, our souls, or so the Christian norse poems are sure. So this is the thing tolkens doing here with the the dark eals have no souls, they're a corruption of the light elves and that and that sort of thing. But he's saying they're still represented as smaller than humans. So it's a lot of stuff going on there. I don't care. I can gas that the dark elfinder is a smaller than average human. I'll Paul fro one. He's gonna love this. But tolkins elves were norse and Abrahamnot traditions. Okay, so they are the firstborn race of middle earths, created a god, Aluvatar, so they're essentially angels. But he follows the norse tradition in having both light and dark elves, although they are not diametrically opposed, as the north miss suggest. There are the western Color Quindy, who come from a paradise like realm where they live in the light given off by the two trees of Valenor, and the eastern Mora Quendy, who are dark because they simply don't live in the light of the tree. They're not necessarily evil, just there's the elves that live in the light elves that live in the dark. Maybe this is sort of a dwarf thing we're getting from the north staff's also. You know there's some politics of color and race going on there and that you have the Western light elves in the eastern dark elves. HMM, some stuff happening there. Hang on one set because that's something that's obviously not something. I was like, Quindy, that's Italian for so, and then I with double checked. It doesn't matter the way. Well, the Western lite elves call themselves the Quindy, which they means in in Tolken's language, those that speak with voices, for as yet they had met no other living things that spoke or saying. So this to me recalls genesis right names all the animals because he can speak. And this is a thing in animal ethics that people often argue that humans are superior to non human animals because precisely because of the power of language and naming. But unlike Adam, they're Talkin's. ELVES are hunters. They are not these peaceful in Paradisic Vegans, because I get he's probably drawing on the British traditions there. But ironically they themselves are hunted by the hunter who is more golf, the dark Lord who turns them into the ORCS. HMM, there's a lot of yeah, hunting and hunters going on there. There are also gray elves who are exiled to middle earth, so this is like the full thing. Nevertheless, as Talbot argue is generally there are no bad elves in talken stories and that, however proud, unforgiving, our impulsive all are devoted enemies of evil, with any caught up in the works of more garth or later Sur I'm so a repolutely marred that the term Elf can no longer apply, which is where we get ORCS. So talking's thing is you can't have a bad alf because once enough goes bad it's a different order of betting. So this is where we get ORCS from. And, as we discussed in episode one on unseen academicals, talking gets the word ORC from BEOWULF. Go into a bit more in a second arm. But also something I found is William Blake also uses the word ORC. Do you know...

...about this? No, I will just say when you're reading William like he is essentially creating a fantasy world with absurd names, it's very difficult to keep up. So hang on. I didn't go too far into this. I was hoping you might know about it because it seems like it's a big thing. If you go to Orca, it's this is just the opening line from wikipedia. ORCA is a proper name from one of the characters in the complex mythology of William Blake. He is a fall and figure, the embodiment of rebellion and stands opposed to us. It is and now you pointed out. Yes, he's essentially like Satan and he calls him ORC. Yeah, now you're right. How why didn't that come up with my brain earlier? Sorry. So, so you do know this here aware? Yeah, I know all about it. Isn't yeah, interesting, okay, but not ORC so much. I mean he is just the not antithesis character. He's a bad guy. Yeah, well, that that picture at the top. They're in the WIKIPEDIA's very Satan ASDic yeah, because I found something. I think I was in one of Talken's letters or somewhere where it was saying that William Blake, or maybe, and I I haven't been able to refind this thing. It was just something I read, didn't write down and then I haven't been able to find it again, but I think they were saying that William Blake also got ORC from Beowulf, so that he and talking did the same thing. The talker didn't realize and then later someone pointed it out to him. I was like Ah Shit. MMM. No, I remember this now because I did some work on Blake when I first started to see if like, because obviously he's a big Milton Fan boy, but I was like do any of these characters are they really Satanic Heroes? And ork was the closest because he does eventually turn into a snake. I remember this now, which would have been relevant a few episodes ago. Yeah, these are works in progress, as we disclaim. So yeah, maybe William Blake got it from bowelk but talking definitely got it from Beowulf. So, as we discussed in the unseen academic episodes, talking translates the passage from Beowulf of Kane. All Evil broods were born, Ogre's and Goblins and haunting shapes of hell and the giants to the longtime a ward with gold, and he's translating Orkney as there as the haunting shapes of hell. And that's where we get aalcs from how I got sips. And translates the same passage, but she translates the children of Kane a's alves rather than goblers, because we were talking about, yeah, the semil similar, an age of Goblins and on ORCS that are tied up and talking and unseen, academic as we're here. She say, no, the elves of the children of Kane as well as things. So I checked the original word and it's Alf that you are why LFE? Well, maybe because Alf had the positive connotations, so they wanted to give it a negative connotation to work with the kine evil broods and things. Yeah, so I couldn't know how talking gets Goblin instead of Elf. Besides him, editorializing important to frame alves as good being, so they can't be the children of Kane. Yeah, I don't think that's yeah, the words ALF s every children of Kane in Beowulf and our brothers of the shapes of hell, demons or ORCs, and indeed talk at acknowledges that the author of Beowulf wants to derive the ALF, the very elves, through Kane from Adam in his lecture on fairy stories, which will talk more about later. So some very curious translations going on there from talking and bringing Kane into it, which is a it's fun. I'm going to note here that Talbot says that the history and values of tolken's elves are represented as glorious, glamorous and poignant, with even their past faults, intrigue, especially pride, although he says admittedly that not a bias of the Silmarilian probably exaggerates this dominance. So I think what he's saying there is, to translate all that, is that the silmarilling has written from an Alf perspective. So he's suggesting that there's something there, that tolken's history is knowingly not an objective history of the owls. It is an Alf bias, just your of the owls. I'm not actually sure about that. I didn't really read the silmarillion and I think it is framed as an objective thing, but he's suggesting that perhaps there's some kind of authorial voice going on there. I'm not sure. Last time I read it I was eighteen, so I can't. Yeah, I have dipped in and out where things are elevant, but I didn't go back and confirm that. Someone will aimail us, hopefully. I mean, if you know, let us know. However, in a letter two NAMI Mitchison, who we've talked about from September, one thousand nine hundred and fifty four, so just before the two our two towels comes out. So they fellowship of the ring has been published and he's complaining because you remember, he complained about people not understanding the elves and the ORCS. He's complaining to her about reviewers who called the whole thing simple minded, interpreting it as just a plain fight between good and evil, with all the good just good and the bad just bad, pointing out the moral complexity of borrow mere and stating the elves are not wholly good or in the right so talk, and saying he didn't intend them to be wholly good creatures. And he says he longs to clarify this with the written but unpublished Elvin histories that became the civil really thing. Can you imagine being tokens? Editor? They're like all right, we need you to take out a thousand pages. He's like, no, everything's essential. So why did they publish the SILMARILLION's true, yeah, it's it's crazy and talking. Says that through the rebellion of created free will, the preceded the creation of middle earth and subcreatively introduced evil rebellions and discording elements of its own nature, that although elves may intern may turn into ORCs, still elves themselves could do evil deeds. So, although it's been set up, interpret it interpreted, like we said before, that kruptals become ORCs. He's saying no, elves can still be bad. That's...

...at least what he intended, although whether it made its way into the books is another story. The fluttering of Elf Moreli perhaps comes from subsequent simplified talking as fantasies, such as Terry Brooks longstanding and popular Shinnara series. Do you know this one? Everyone tells me to write it and I read it and I know it's one I would like, so I haven't. Yeah, no, it's one. I didn't know about it, but it's I always see it in second hand book stores and I think Maddie Stad's get some old copy. So it's like s yeah, fantasy fans and there was a TV series. It was like one of the first ones when game of thrones got popular. They were like should are it's going to be the next game of thrones and I think every case, the first couple episodes, it was terrible. Yeah, but Yees, yeah, I think you're right to not read those because, Talbot says they provide an extraordinary example of what bloom calls Clinaman Hichins, metaphoric theft. Met UPS are metamorphic theft. Saying that Brooks has should a series is a shameful formula rehash of major aspects of the water of the rings. But Brooks has alves suffer even more from the comparison than the rest of the Turgidl ill expressed an adverbritten concoctions, adding that his comment tents are derived only from the first three books and that there are more, but life is too short. Correct. That's a pretty big academic smackdown he's laying on the schnarrow books right there. Yeah, so, along with the just awls in general, what Perapch it's really focusing on, in laws and ladies, is the image of the Fairy Queen Herself, which is represented in Lord of the Rings by Glad Rill, the elven Lady of Lorien. So she's not the queen of all elves, but she and her husband, syllable and I described as very tall, the lady no less hold than a Lord, and they were grave and beautiful. They were clad holy and white and the hair of the lady was a very deep gold. But no sign of age was upon them, unless it were in the depths of their eyes, the wells of deep memory. So we're having this notion of the elves seductive glamor, but also the idea of their seductive singing, which we see in talking in the folklore stuff and not talking the fuck of the and Pratchett and the folklore stuff is also preserved in talking through glad Rolle's voice, which is described as clear and musical but deeper than woman's won't. So we are getting something of these, yeah, I've been saying, nefarious but seductive, HMM, and almost, almost dangerous, tempting elves in glad row. She's not just this all good thing, but she's also represented as the ARYAN Beautiful Lady. Yep samurais Gangee Old Sam he also tells borrom's brother, pharemia. Do you want to read this one? Yeah, I tried to this for the Samnt, but I tried in it, but yeah, anyway. No, I'll do it with the SAM accent. Okay, her. Now I gotta remember what Sam Sounds like. Is it? Oh Master, is that? I'm yeah, Oh master, you should see her. Indeed you should, sir. I am only a hobbit and guarding is my job at home. Sir, if you understand me, I'm just getting Irish. So I'm doing Chris, but and I'm not much good at poetry, so I can't tell you what I mean. It ought to be Sung. I wish I could make a song about her. Beautiful She's, sir, lovely, sometimes like a great tree and flower, sometimes like a white Deafa down billy. That's an actual thing. I did chet that. That is not a type part. Sometimes like a white deafer downdilly, small and slender alike. That was very leprocorn, hard as diamonds, soft as moonlight, warm a sudden, cold as frost in the stars, proud and far off as a snow mountain and as merry as any last I ever saw with daisies in her hair and springtime. But that's a lot of nonsense and all wide off my mark. Awesome. So He's saying that Glad Real, that the Elf Queen, is so beautiful that he can't even describe it, and that the only way to describe it is through poetry and song. You know, yeah, I think Pratchett's doing something with that. So she is being represented as this amazing, beautiful good lady, but there are those who doubt her greatness and good intentions. In toppen's work, when first encountering the fellowship and learning of their allegiance to Gladeral, the human leader of the writers of Rowan Amar warns that there are old tales of a lady in the Golden Wood which claim that few escape her nets, accusing the fellowship of being net weavers and sorcerers themselves, since they have her favor. So yeah, very, very pretcheresque there, to which the door off Gimli sponds. If you ever chance to see the Lady Gladero with Your Eyes Weight do we have a Gimli voice? What does skimly sound like? Ly, I did Sam you got to do Gimli. I don't know if I can. If ever you chance to see the lady good, now I can't. That's not that's not gively. He's angry and small. If ever you chance to see the lady Gladu with your eyes, then you shall acknowledge her the fairest of ladies, or our friendship will end. That think I went now it wasn't. I was terrible. I went like real angry, better than my he's just like drunk. The question I want to put to you are Sam and Gimli seduced by GLADRIAL'S GLAMOR? I mean, perhaps that's the whole thing. Right, we don't know, but probably. But also men like pretty things. I mean they're definitely seduced by her, but also the outcome of Lord of the Rings was suggesting they were right to be so right. She is as well intentioned as she appears. Yeah, there's no actual mention of Glamor in Lord of the Rings, the word itself nevertheless. Borrow Mare ORSO is also suspicious, saying that he does not feel too sure of this elvish lady and her purposes with Arragon, similar wanting him to...

...speak no evil of lady glad rills, while insisting that there isn't her and in this land no evil unless a man bring it hither himself. There you go. Well, Borrom, here is the one with dishonest intentions, who gives into the temptation of the ring. So like, yes, he's not really we're not meant to trust what he thinks. But there are people going, hey, you guys have just really taken by this lady's beauty and you're not really stopping to question what is she hmm. And when offered the one ring by Frodo, who is also taken in by her goodness, he's like, well, I'm just a little dwarf. Albet say, why give it to me? I should give it to this magical it is magical health. Queen gladure warns him that can you collect to do this? In place of the Dark Mord, you will set up a queen, and I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible. Is the morning of the night. There is the sea and the sign of the snow up on the mountain, dreadful as the storm and the lightning stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me, despair, say, to steal your joke from what know. We Love Josh with that despair? No, but I would be a dark Lord. All right, sorry. So, yeah, she's acknowledging that she would be corrupted. She's not as pure as all these people are saying. MMM. So I thought was interesting. She also already has the powerful ring. Ann Yeah, the ring of adamant. Ah, that is the strongest we we know this. It's a strong metal, but it's the it's the chains that hold Satan and hell. It is, I think it's Cametheus as well. It's also what warm boy and clause I made out of sad amount. Yeah, so she has the ring of adamant so she's resisted that temptation already. But the temptation of the one ring itself is too much. But she tells Frodo that if he succeeds in destroying the one ring, the now power will be diminished and loft lorium will fade and the tides of time the sweep it away. We must have parted too the west or dwind all to a rustic folk of Dell and cave slowly to forget and to be forgotten. So this is what happens in lots and ladies. Yeah, right, she's saying if you. We get our power from these dark rings that are or they're not dark rings, but they're corrupting. Their powerful, their temptation power is corruptive. Yes, is where I draw my power from, and if you destrow that, not only will my power weather, but the memory of the elves all else, she says, we our power will be diminished. All elves will fade and become these float figures that dwell in caves and have forgotten. So yeah, I thought that's interesting and I do think there's definitely more going on with Gladro on the elves. In talking ban, his reviewers are giving him credit forcing it's just black and white morality. I think that's fair. She also has a mirror just right. colladial has the mirror where you look in and see your temptations and things. So it's all. It's a soup. It's a soup, as I mentioned before, talking has an influential one Thousan nine hundred and thirty nine lecture or essay called on fairy stories, where he maintains the indifference of elves to human goings on. So in the in this lecture, he says that elves are not primarily concerned with US humans, nor we with them. And as he know, its fairy stories seemed to have become fashionable soon after the great voyages have begun to make the world seemed too narrow to hold both men and elves. So this is the same thing with our science fiction as well in Utopian literature, because Utopia originally Thomas more. You go off and you find an island that's never been discovered before and all it's amazing. This new land, Australia is sort of the last place for Britain to colonize and everything. So a lot of the last utopias from the late nineteen century are all about how Australia's has this paradise in the middle of it and that's where the new corn is going to be. And after that, after they find out it's all desert, that's when you get a lot of science fiction kicking off and parallel worlds and space and things, because it's like, well, we're out of land. So told in saying this that the same thing happens with fairy stories. Once written sort of colonized everything and we know that we've got a map of the world. Well, where do we set our adventure stories? Where's yeah, you land. Well, it's in the parallel world of fairy talking. Actually says that elves are science fictional rather than fantastic, in stories where humans can breed with and may have evolved from them, likening them to the molocks and Eloy and sht wells as time machine who are meant to evolved from humans eight hundred thousand years in the future. So He's saying that. Yeah, a lot of folk to focal opposits that humans have evolved from this old race of elves and become less powerful in time. So he's saying it's just the same. Eight hundred years ago there was elves, a time years in the future there will be more locks. It's the same sort of thing. Yeah, I sort of agree with this. I don't in that I mean Andrew Nona, my supervisor, would argue that science fiction and fantasy are traditions that are just whatever people call science fiction. Of Science Fiction. It's to turn the science fiction readers to hear that. I would it's a selective tradition. Is that the word he is which is he he borrows from Raymond Williams. But if you're trying to pin down science fiction rather than Esthetics, saying the fantasies is elves and science fiction is future monsters. Talken is agreeing with it. What a lot of theorists would say is it is about the method. This is the cognitiveastrator and thing. If you can reason that elves, if you can connect them to the real world and humans, then they are more science fictional than fantasy, which what's his name, Lewis, kind of does with Narnia. Yeah, starts off, I mean there is a connection where you go through a cupboard into an other world, but that's just some magical handwaving stuff, but later on he revises it to be all about quantum and things and the magician's nephew. That's yeah, talking and Lewis especially, we're already sort...

...of deliberately blurring the the lives of science fiction and fantasy as they were establishing them. And I learned the other day that they're talking was planning on writing a book. I can't remember what it's called. Oh, it's in the same man. In the dream world there is a library of books that were never written, which is another thing he steals from Pratchett M and one of those books. I wish I had the issue up so I could tell you what it was. One of those books is a book talking never wrote but had mentioned writing, which was about was meant to bring Nannia and the Lord of the reasons of meant to connect those worlds and our world. So he was doing the big like mcu Yep, combine Narnia, Lord of the Rings Universe and connect. I'm so glad he never wrote that. Same in this lecture he also claims that Beowulf is only a version of a GRIMM's fairy tale, usually translated either as the GNOME or the elves. Now I read this story while researching for which is abroad, because had the word elves in it, but, as the editors of my audition say, it bears virtually no resemblances. So it's about like Christmas elves that help a lady and then she's like, oh, thinks elves. I don't know what it has to do with Baowelth. But Tal can actually produced his own fairytale version of BEOWULF called Sele ex spell, which was meant to be published in the Welsh Review, but the magazine folded and it remained unpublished until two thousand and fourteen. So very recently. I did read this. Nothing really to report that. Yeah, we're getting an INTERRA intersection of fairy tales as well and their revisions playing into this ALF development here. So, although Tokens High El's may have become the culture default today, in a letter to the British historian, he Brogan in one thousand nine hundred and fifty four. I'm not sure if he was a historian. They know it was a letty he sent as a child and they grew up to be historian. But now led it to a dude named you. Brogan in one thousand nine hundred and fifty four, just before two tales of published. Again talking, admitted deeply regretting having used olves the word elves, saying that though this word in ancestry and original meaning was suitable enough, the disastrous debasement of the word, in which Shakespeare played an unforgivable part, has really overloaded it with regrettable turns which are too much to overcome. Hmm, he's all. He also acknowledges the powerful influence of Charles Perrot and the fairytale form on diminishing these old fairy tale and Alf things into what we would think of as fairies. Person Nin TAT sins fairies. So he's complaining about the same thing that Pratchett is complaining about him. He's complaining about Shakespeare's influence. But obviously I've been reading a lot about the Romantics and the extent to which they are influenced by Shakespeare and the constantly, you know this is bloom again, trying to get out from under that anger, that anxiety of influence, because they're trying to write their own plays and they can never do better. But it's interesting that now that Pratchett is entirely switched forms, but it is still using the same ideas. He's complaining about what Shakespeare did and that he can't get a wave of talken or Approchett. Know who complained that owls were terrible. Talk Him, talk him. That it's interestingly entirely different form. Talken is now complaining about Shakespeare, an entirely different line. Well, What's interesting to me about that quote is that he's saying that Shakespeare has played on unforgivable part in the debasement of Alves, has overloaded it with regrettable tones which are too much to overcome. Yeah, but then he overcomes them he becomes the default. He does the thing the Romantics can't do, which bion would be so bad mad about it. But yes, even with in Tolkien's own world of Middle Earth, the elves have apparently been diminished and to many it may now suggest fancies, either pretty or silly, as unlike the Quandy of old are as the butterflies of the Swift Falcon. So he's saying even the Alves that appear in the Lord of the Rings, they are a mere shadow of the alves that are in the SILMA brillion. I mean that's always these copat a little bit, though. Wasn't it just going to put that there? Yeah, so that's talking complaining about Shakespeare and the diminishment of valves, which is the same thing Pratchett is complaining about in light of Tolkien's influence. So why don't we talk about Shakespeare himself? Yeah, so after we did Macbeth with weird sisters, Pratchett returns again to Shakespeare and Lords of ladies and Andrew Raymont I, who wrote the article about the gender stuff with the the dwars and things that we talked about in the first episode on unseen academicals. He argues the cranny. Weather wax is drawn to the theater because it has a kind of magic that is close enough to her own that she cannot leave it alone, which and then he suggests the same of Pratchett, which you know, is pretty obvious. This is postmon. North is playing around with postmon things. But the link between storytelling and the type of magic that great weather actually uses, or more her head Ology. HMM. She essentially and event Chui defeats the Queen of the elves and Lords and ladies by using the stories against her, the way that the duke was trying to use the stories against whiches to this idea of storytelling as magic itself. Yeah, cool, which is the power of words, things and all and all of that. That was mcbeth. He's sending up midsummer nights dream here, which is my favorite Shakespeare play. How do you feel about it? All, I love with someone I stream. We saw it this year, Shakespeare in the park. Oh Dad, you you would not read it before that. Yeah, I have no Roman. Hadn't a nick. It was nick's first ever Shakespeare experience entirely. So that was fun. Taking that virginity. What I've been talking about with Peter, something I didn't ever know but maybe you know, is apparently the alves in the player. Yeah, the fairies in...

...the player meant to be very small, like the tiny. Yes, yeah, I didn't know that. Well, I mean that's the whole thing. Yeah, I know, I never picked up on it. Yeah, I was like that's a point, Peter, and he's like that is the play. I'm like, okay, yeah, well, they're small, but then Titania and Oberon are not a big yeah, yeah, I think it's I think it's my favorite Shakespeare play. I mean I reread it for this and I was a bit like it's just fairies and silly fairy stuff, like it's not as cool and complex as something like ham might doll the tempest or something. Yeah, Henry Richard the first yeah, I was thinking about it and it's interesting because of what he does right, the way he plays around with these ideas and put some together. That's what I like to like it because of the like that's the fantasy element to it, which also happens in hamlet, mcbeth and things. But I like it sort of because I think it's a really like there's a way of reading it with the theories are very malevolent. Oh Yeah, dark. Yeah, so I like that that it's presented to this common as this comedy, but it definitely has a dark undertone where, like the fairies are messing with love. Hmmm, that's meant to be the thing, that's like the power of love. That's this trope in fantasy that it's the one pure form and then these fairies just come along and fuck with it for fun. Yes, I think that is a really dark thought actually, and that's what's so interesting about it and shape that shakes be generally, you know, without the stage directions and the director's notes and things like, you can present park in so many different ways, like there are those representations of him where he's like sexy baron a Kiro and then evil Goblin figure, like that's it. You can read it so many different ways. But yeah, I think that is the best of the better reading, because they are dicks, as John Stevens and robber mccallm note and their one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight chapter revisions of early modern classics, which begins with an epigraph from Lords and ladies about he'll writing the taming of the bowl, which is my second least favorite line from why are we making get the taming of the vault, because I realize this that the mechanicals in yeah, that why you they're doing is a midsummer night's dream. Yes, they it's written by doing the play about it. Yeah, but then it ends with this footnote where he'll comes along and play and write to play based on that, doing this play things that happen on midsummer night, but can't because he writes the taming of the Vole. So what? I don't know. The footnotes in my undition. Okay, that's interesting, but I think that's Pratchett wanting to be like, oh, remember hire and the taming of the Vole, which is a non joke, like that's and I'm glad it's a footnote rather than in the text, like that's what a bunch of critics are say. Is like here is so front and center and Weird Sisters than here, e jet, he shows up it as a cameo and a footnote. But I think that's interesting in that he's writing midsummer night's dream based on the events of Lords and ladies, which adds to by the Shakespeare in an analog. Here is then diminishing the fairies in that play. He's doing the thing that granny weather. It's threaten them, except that the mechanicals are already performing a play based on his work, which is meant to be it. Hang on, I mean it's what's a Pireus and thisbe, or however you say it, that parisons me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it doesn't quite line up, which which, by the way, is Romeo and Juliet. I think we've talked about that. Yeah, and Proson, thisbe is in I'm sure I'm saying that wrong, but that's in midsumer night dream they're performing. There's a play within the players in the play. Yeah, it's all there, but in midsummer night's dream, the play they're performing is not meant to be written by Shakespeare. It's O't it doesn't work. By trying to cram an analog for Shakespeare into the discworld. It doesn't work. I do think that sometimes pratchette is just taking the piss like he's like, Oh, I'm taking apart, I dare you. But if you do and you were here in wandering mazes loss, to quote Milton, well, I wish he would do a better job of it than the taming of the Vole. That's not a joke. That's just changing one word and on her it's kind of funny. Okay, it would be. I don't know, it's a funny thing to change it to. If it was the chaming of the number would at work the taming of the bill. Just don't think of works that because there is no twist. Yeah, you're right, just an illusion. It's just funny. Okay, my problem with that. Yeah, but yes, as Stevens a McCallum note, there are few direct correspondences between Lords and ladies and midsummer arts dream. Unlike weird sisters, which was sort of this direct parody of the Macbeth Story. I'm here. It's just sort of integrating a couple of elements and making its own thing, saying that it is more a brick, a large constructed from a range of other texts and a straight retail or revision. So this is a pastiche yeah, but it becomes a parody when the Unicorn shows up and it kills everyone. Yeah, I was wondering for ages what the deal with the Unicorn was. Yeah, and I didn't get it because last time we record and I did some research into Unicorns as a book called, I think it's just called the history of the Unicorn. It's called Lore of the Unicorn by Odell Shepherd. That is a book I read trying to find out what the deal with the Unicorn was. So if people are interested in Unicorns I recommend that book. I was wondering whether the Unicorn came from an own where I get it. So I left it out. And then when we record apart one hours halfway through Lord Dunceni's book the King of Al Flans daughter. So the king, the King of our flans daughter is about a lady who weds the kit. The King of our Flan Sendsi's daughter to wed a model man to try and blend the kingdoms of human and fairy. But the ALF, the daughter, she gets bored of living in the real...

...world, runs away and returns to fairyland and they have a baby and the baby is given to a witch to raise. Now that baby is named a Ryan, after the hunter, grows up to become a unicorn hunter. As walking through the forest one days. This was the next chapter. We finished part one. I read the next chapter which is about a Ryan the Unicorn Hunter, and it's the scene from lords of ladies where the Unicorn pops out, but he hunts the Unicorn and but then he literally he grows up to become a unicorn hunter and recruits all the rolls of Fairyland to help him hunt Unicorns with him and things. So that that answers where the the UNICORNS come from. Another place the UNICORNS come from is they want. In future king by T H Wi, which is the sort of the sound story, has the Unicorn scene and some fairy stuff with what's her name, Morgana, I'm Goin a lot of Fay. Yeah, I'm Goin to the fairy yeah, I'm so stuff going on there. But it turns out you I was asking you the other day because I've been reading them. I've read the first two box of the ones in future king. These books are great. HMM, okay, and they're really funny. Maybe lads are very read. They do. I think they're very good and they're very pretchett ask, okay, and that like Pratchett, if there's a line of practice, like on the comedy side of serious fantasy, but he's like sort of still got some serious ideas going on. These are the other way where they're like serious fantasy stories, but they're budding up against this is almost a comedic parody. They're good, but they're also a big key and unlocking a lot of pratchett references. Yeah, letter rate, yeah, the Unicorn. So that that's been interesting. Nothing specific to bring there, but that's where some of the illusions come from. And of course, in the Second Book Mellon Decides to be a vegetarian because killing animals is mean. It is, but I think this is why, at least we're responding to this is a stronger work than weird sisters is. It's more of its own story. It's taking the band box and making its own thing. It's not living in the shadow of Shakespeare's text so much Steven's and macallumore. Ever think that cassin under Ridcley, nanny OGG and granny weather wax take the positions of the fall lovers from amidsummer night's dream? MMM, saying that mcgrant and Verrett stand in for theseus and HIPPOLYTA. They are right there getting married. Yeah, that's funny. He's not doing it so much. I think he's just playing relationships. I don't really see any parallels between no it doesn't be develop beyond there just being four of them and than the other two. But I guess you got Granny Weather Wax Tongue Ridcley to stop chasing her. HMM. Yeah, so even though he's taking these and he's making our thing Andrew and Butler nevertheless notes that by the end of the novel, the three which is are all paired off. Yeah, yeah, granny and cause, granny and Ricolli causin under and Nanni Aga and mcgrant and variance, which is the narrative logic of Lord and ladies, cause source and midsone night's dream, because any comedy has to end with a wedding, right. Butler says that, because Pratchett's taking this comedy marriage ending, this leads him a kind of narrative dead end which is only resolvable by ensuring that he gets his witches and wizards single again as soon as possible. So there's a couple of things going on there. One is that I think that, yeah, none of this really matters. MC GRAT and Verrett's get married, but nanny ago and Cassananda like nothing comes of that. I think you're a yeah, granny and and ricolly go their separate ways. I think that one's a bit more justified. So project doesn't want them to be in couples, but he makes them being couples because that's having someone out. Tringer. This is the story running down the hill, this is the narrative causality. They have to couple up because of the pair of stories. Story, targe is magic. I like the faces. You're make it now. Yeah, I know. I was like, how do I trend? was like the face into the audio for the thing, just like the Keyato Roeves wore. MEME. Yeah, put it, put in the brain, exploding sound. Yeah, maybe it's something good where he was not really pushing it back at against it enough. I guess he is with Grania and rude color. Right, that's a good inversion of the suppose it up and leave happily ever after. HMM, she's saying no, I was meant to be single. In her two thousand and thirteen masters thesis Digesting Shakespeare, I'll riser too many of them. Melon points out that the s were rife with Shakespeare and adaptation, with films such as Bass Lamon's Romeo and Juliette and the Academy award a beating Shakespeare. Shakespeare, and I haven't seen that, is it? I mean I have a special relationship with that because that film was my sexual awakening. Or okay, fun to talk about it. I mean I've sort of some I'm thinking about doing this Bariness patreon show where we watch movies that are relevant to the thing. So Shakespeare and love could be one. I mean, it's ridiculous. It was on, I think, the TV at my cousin's house recently while I was tunting out. I was like this is absurd, but oh man, that WHO's in that movie? WHO's setting you off? Not Not Ralph fiends, but one of the fiend's guys, not voldemort, his brother, the much popular one. Yeah, I don't know. I was like, I don't know, eleven or something. I was like Damn, yeah, and also it was Shakespeare because I was into books and I was like it's the two best things. MMM, MMM, what was your sexual awakening film? Hang on, no, I've got one fight if I have a specific sexual weakening film, not know, nothing, nothing springs to mind. Very interesting. Mean, there were there's just hot chicks and movie so like they are around, but there's not one that jumps out of me. Okay, all right, nuts tale. So and I think about it, but we are off track. Oka. Yeah, so there was. There was the basilman, Romeo and Juliet, Shakespeare in love, and also the Michael...

Hoffman's one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine adaptation of mids and nights dream itself, as well as the introduction of Shakespeare into primary school curriculums. Has apparently a thing that was going on a lot e the S, and this also coincided with a bunch of fantasy adaptations of midsomer arts dream, including Lords and ladies, Neil game and Salmon version, which we'll talk about it the bonus episode, and Susan Cooper's King of shadows, which I don't know much about, but that's that's one of them. I know she's the one who's the darkest rising and thing, but I don't know that particular book. The million also notes that, while others depicted Shakespeare's play as being more approachable and comic project and game and specifically depicted the elves as powerful and enigmatic and satirizing, the early adoptor's portrayal of the fairies as cute and sweet. So it's something that Pratchett and game and I sort of pushing back against while they're in the midst of it. As Jennifer Clement observes in her two thousand and thirteen article roommaking Shakespeare, whereas weird sisters casts a humorous eye on Shakespeare's great tragedies, purchase later book, Lords and Ladies Read Shakespeare's comedy rather more seriously. So that's something I noticed as well, is that projects with bath into a comedy and mids one arts dream into a tragedy, although it's a comedy because they all get married at the end, but it's much more of dark and violent and serious, whereas with sisters is Fast Cook. So I thought that's a cool little on versions. To the point. Yeah, yes, because protege revision is also a restoration, as Shakespeare himself is often charged with having revised and diminished elves and fairies from their more eleven ninchins. As you said, as numerous critics observed, Shakespeare's nit mid someone that dream blends various fairy traditions. Right, it's certain Athens, but the characters have Roman rather than Greek God names. And then you've got the English folklore coming into eat itself. is a pastiche of fairy traditions and Alphin folk tales. In his narrative and dramatic sources of Shakespeare, Jeffrey burlow identifies ten separate sources of material for midsummer night stream, which is the second highest amount of any Shakespeare play, behind King Lee as eleven. Yes, the primary sources for the fairies seemed to be of its metamorphosis and choices Reytales, wherein the king and Queen of the fairies are given the names of the Romans, gods of the underworld, Pluto and Prosperina. This is hadies and persephone and Greek, which I think you mentioned persephone on the last episode. I've been really into pres opin up persephone a lot of late because my your twelves are doing penelope ad which takes, despite it being based on, you know, the Elian the Odyssey, takes a lot of its mythology from alburn, which I was reading last year. So it's all relevant. HMM. Yeah, so in avid the Pluto and Prosperina are seen surrounded by singing fairies. Yes, Matthew would coock suggests may have been inspired by Sir rofier analogy of Shakespeare's very construction. Do you know Chure, sir? Haven't read it. Yeah, it's long and old, as long and old and written in old English. So I did do like there's collections and skin to give you the bits about the fairies in there. There wasn't anything particularly interesting. I must be surprised that I forget the choices, like pre Shakespeare. This is the thing, right, because Shakespeare, then he can solidates British identity. You know, Spencer was dealing with it, but chaucer is the first one. Sorcer is the one that really brings together the idea of Britishness in literature and creates a traditional word. Yeah, I always just like if someone mentions Choicer, I have in my head so like the the renaissance or what's the enlightenment sort of area, like with with Milton and things. But no, yeah, he's a shit. Well, old. Well, as woodcock also observes, fairies were consistently represented in early one dictionaries and classical works as naive analogs to Greek and Roman gods. All right, the name of Shakespeare's very green Titania comes directly from Ovid, who used the name to refer to the Roman hunting goddess Diana and the shapeshifting sorcerer secy. So when you were saying is this connected to Diana? Yes, through Shakespeare, yeah, and then connecting it back to the Odyssey with CECY as well. Conversely, Oberon's name is likely derived from the German Alf King Alberic, although the character comes from the thirteen century French Romance Huon of Bord area. HMM. Wherein there ober on or over on, AIDS the eponymous Hercules like night to accomplish a series of seemingly impossible tasks. This is where we get the idea of fairies empowering Knights and kings and they return to power. Is something I want to return to. The Spencer that Alice might dispute I might so. Like precht's elves and ovid's Diana, this original obern is also an enthusiastic hunter who provides her on with the magical horn by which to summon him. We got there, the horned God with the Elf King, but it's also associated with hunting. Lots of imagery going on there and, as analyzes conly, observes in her two thousand and twenty chapter on Shakespeare and the fairy king. Shakespeare also marks a defining moment in the cultural mythology of Oberon by providing him with a wife. This is the first time that the fairy King and Queen I meant to be a couple rather than just these individual mythological figures. Cool. Well, of course they're having an argument and they don't live together and they don't like each other. So they're shown to be constantly bickering and constantly incompatible, which perhaps justice towards traditional associations with summer and went up. That they're meant to be a pair, but they can't exist in the same place, because that that's Pluto of the cephony. Yeah, and in the first tiphany aching book and the Wee Freemen, it is explained that the king left fairyland after an argument with the Queen, where they use magical words and that's why their argument calls so much devastation there. It is, yeah, interesting. Yet, despite Oberon's and mets powers, in HRE...

...and of Bodo, Oberon is there described as being but of three feet tall and crooked shouldered, although his disfigured appearance is disguised by an angel like passage, so that there is no mortal man that Seeth Him, but the taketh great pleasure to behold his face. HMM, but this is the glamor thing and this is also a yeah, Short, disfigured else before Shakespeare. Yeah, okay. Woodcock also suggests that Shakespeare may have known Robert Green's more recently. At the Scottish history of James The fourth from one thousand, five hundred and ninety eight run Oberon look as not so big as the king of clubs. So we are getting small, diminished fairies before Shakespeare. Or actually fifteen ninety eight is after Shakespeare, but it's a contemporary thought. Do you know that one Robert Green? No, I know Robert Green only from upstart, grow away. He Shakespeare's nemesis m you should watch it. It's hilarious. See, that's what's going on around Shakespeare. Within Shakespeare. Oberon and Titania are human size but, as we mentioned before, their other fairies are miniature and, in contrast to Ober on and Titania's human stature and God like proles, their fairy followers and midsion night's dream resemble the more mischievous and immunative fairies from English and Celtic folklore. So again we again, the blend of the powerful French and Norse elves and God's being, the kings of the Celtic miniatures. Very so it's this pastiche thing that apparently was invented in the s Inter Chapter I mid someone nights dream, from the two thousand and Twenty Collection Shakespeare and the supernatural. Laurie Johnson suggest that by employing these figures from folklore are Shakespeare disrupts the plays in position of the UNWELDY and unfamiliar, providing an anker for his elizabethian audiences which allowed them to make sense of the fictional world by applying local knowledge. I thought that might have been interesting to you, given your like interest in Shakespeare and folklore. Yeah, the idea that that you sort of breaking down this barrier between the the myth and the audience by saying the characters in the play are the ones that exist in your everyday lives. Is that what she's saying there? I guess. Yeah, that's interesting. So after midsone nights tree and where fairies are given names like pease, blossom, cobweb, moth and mustard seed. These are all varidays of flowers. fairies were widely revised as harmless or merely mischievous, diminutive creatures. They're not very threatening apart from puck and they the comedy relief. They're the sidekicks hiding in flowers, they're fanning the Queen and all of that, and this is sort of the image that gets taken forward and you end up with the nineteen century fairies with the wings in the garden. Yep, but this is also preempted by the description of the fairy Queen Mab in Romeo and Juliet, where in Mercutio describes her as the furies midwife, no bigger than in a gate stone on the forefinger of an Alderman, who is drawn with a team of little atter my over men's noses as they lie asleep in a chariot made out of an empty Hazel nut, who gets up to such an affarious activities as plotting the means of horses in the night and Baking Elf locks, which I'm not into, foul sluttish hairs, making them women of good carriage, although it does say that sometimes she also driveth over a soldier's neck so that he dreams of cutting foreign throats, which I thought was pretty gruesome. It is, and obviously I mean that's meant to be a good thing, that she's inspiring the soldiers to fight the enemy, but that she's explicitly inspiring dreams of decapitation, I think, does underbine her little, peaceful, I'm a little snail drawn chariot fairy queen a bit. He's writing this at the same time as midsummer ars dream, so I think Romero and Joliet actually debuts earlier, but he's probably running them at the same time. So whatever he's doing at the fairies is coming together for him at this time. Maver since been restored to the statue of a Utopian got us by our boy Percy Shelley. Yeah, in his palm. Queen Mab, however, Shakespeare likely to lives her name from the legendary Irish Warrior Queen. Maybe. Sorry, if we want to think about mcgrat and the warrior Queen, thing's worry queen's all the way down. There's also aerial in the tempest who, while not technically a fairy, had he's a shapeshifting win now a mental he sings a song about lying in a cowslip spell. Yeah, he's a fairy. Well, here I have to go off on a vegetarian science fiction tangent, because this connection vegetarian trends in science fiction through Margaret Atwood's Haag seed, which is a sort of rewriting of the tempest, where in a group of prisoners who are putting on a production of the tempest object to playing aerial because he's a fairy. Right, there is hard prisoners and the like. We're not playing this very so the director therefore changes him into an alien they describe similar to those depicted an eat and star trek, and the Science Fiction Association leads them to consider him a Vegan, since such weird eating habits are the kind of thing you'd expect from aliens. Yeah, and then we also have DD connection to the owls having green blood, which connects them to star trek as well. So that was in the last episode. I don't know if there's any like actual point to be made. There just a lot of associations, of ideas or crossing over and bleeding into each other. And I've just thought of another one, which is that Margaret Atwood is actually written into the Star Trek expanded universe. No, that she in one of her books, one of her earlier books, life before men, which I think is one of her better books. That book is in there's a star Trek expanded universe book which are non cannon but within their star trek expanding he was one of the novels. Spark, who's the vegetarian Valkan, gives the doctor McCoy his copy of my great outwards...

...life before men, to give to Captain Kirk, and he says if Captain Kirk reads the first paragraph of this book he will understand how I'm feeling. The first paragraph is all about how the lady feels like a snail who has been having her shell peeled away, which connects it to animal ethics and things, but also maybe Queen Mab, who is the size of a snail, feels like a snail. This is all word association that means nothing. So the image of the tiny wing fairies we think of today was weren't fully developed until the mid nineteen century. It was after kind of oil. It was the guy who wrote shellack hopes tell me about this. I'm so glad I could bring this into your life. So, after curn and oil, who wrote, obviously shown up combs, which is clearly a detective who like prides himself on empiricism and knowing things and like finding out the truth. Right, he was obsessed with fairies after Cron and oil. And then, like, he saw the pictures. Yeah, but he didn't make the pictures, the guy, but he didn't make two pictures. The Guy put it together. Okay, you do know this. Never mind. Oh, I just I knew who was taken in about it by. Yeah, but like that, that guy who I can't remember his name, and I'll look it up because I have the power of Google in front of me. Telling the cottingly fairies series of photo crafts taken by else who? Right, and Francis Griffin. So two women. Odds en it's in the early nineteen hundreds rather than the late eighteen hundreds. One thousand nine hundred and seventeen. This is way later than I thought. Yeah, the pictures came to the attention of run a Cirque, Arthur Kurn and doyle, who use them to illustrate an article of fairies, who had been commissioned to write for the Christmas nineteen twenty addition of the Strand magazine. So he popularize these these pictures. MMM, that's way later than I thought. It was. One Thousand Nine hundred and twenty. Do that at nineteen twenty? Yeah, so. But this image wasn't really fully developed until the mid late nineteen century. But Shakespeare's diminutive revisions of fairies were widely really reiterated, and later dramatic depictions such as Michael Drayton's Nymphidia. Do you know this one? No, it has a reputation for being horrible and indeed talking calls it one of the worst fairy stories ever written, where in the night pigwidge and rides on a frisky ear week and makes ask nation to his lover Queen Mag from within a cowslip flower. I wonder if that's where wrong gets the name of his owl and Harry Potter pigwidgeon. Apparently that's that's a pig pigwig or something as like an insult, because it's also I think they're all types of flowers. I'm not sure about that, but there was some note in something I read about how Pigwig is was like a calling someone a Prig it's like a variation of that. You're a pig wig. Okay. Yes, woodcock notes, popular belief in fairies was already waning by the time Shakespeare composed amid someone arstream with Reginald Scott noting in his one thousand five hundred and eighty four discovery of witchcraft that Heretofore Robin goodfellow, who's park and Hobgoblin were as terrible at as credible to the people as hags and witches be now and in time to come, I which will be as much derided and can and contempt and that's meant to be condemned in old English speak, will be as much divided and condemned as and as plainly perceived as the illusion and knavery of Robin goodfather. I think we might have covered this, but I can't remember as talking about it with Peter. And you know, you were meant to leave out a plate of milk for Robin goodfellow and he would help you. And obviously that's what happens at the end of Lords and ladies are leaving at milk. Yeah, that's something I am something about. That way of Robin goodfellow is the like evil he's become the the one. Yeah, continuing fairy, but originally he was like this house helper that you gave milk to do. You a choice. So he wasn't that threatening. So Shakespeare's actually taken him and made him like this much mischievous trickster. He was mischievous, but yeah, he was. Shakespeare does drum it up a bit. I just wanted to like it's one of those things where it's like, okay, everyone was leaving at milk, but surely at some point someone looked at someone else and said, no one's drinking the milk and no one is doing my choice. That's so. Yeah, but it's the same thing with like Father Christmas, I guess Santa. I mean someone's leaving me presents. I just not old enough to recognize who. Yeah, I don't know either. I mean pock's not really that relevant to lords and ladies, but will cover more about him in the branus episode about game and where he's from. The center. Yeah, where we have there the this is originald Scott saying that fairy belief, as Wayne it's never been replaced by superstitions about witches. But that too, in time. Will wait until witches and fairies are equally disbelieved him. So that's time, Lords and ladies, and with sisters, together there as well. Of course, the Denegation of fairies and the waning of belief in witchcraft is exactly what happened, and he's exactly what granny weather acts threatens the clean queen of the elves with, yeah, the writing of plays that name them things like pease blossom. I was a bit annoyed by threatening her with calling her pease blossom, but like, we have the excuse, use and laws. Than Ladies, that Granny has plucked that out of the quantum thing. But why does the queen recognize that and treat it as a real threat, unless she too can happened to the quantum? Yeah, that's a plot hole. Can She tap into the quantum? Maybe? But yeah, there's some kind of tension going on in lots and ladies between wanting people to reshape the images of the elves and forget about the old ones. HMM. So, yeah, they win by getting rid of the evil elves and routing them, but then Pratchett's lots and ladies is bringing back and reinstating this old threatening Elf superstitions and wanting people to remember what elves actually like.

Like within the book, granny weather axes caught till the grant. She's silly because she doesn't treat the superstition seriously. Yeah, but at the same time she she's selfdefeating. She threatens the Queen with the waning fruit law. Like granny is the one going around telling everyone remember the elves, and then at the end she's like, I'll make them forget about you. I guess the point is she saying remember the owls, because if not, you're going to forget that there are threat and they're a problem and you won't know how to fight them. But then she's trying to vanquish the owls by just getting rid of them entirely and they won't have to remember them, I guess. Oh No, I see your point. Oh yeah, it's like make sure you remember, remember, but also definitely forget about all these people. It's a bit, a bit of a weakness in the planting. There maybe be, as I mentioned when we were introducing with someone ice cream. Something that really attracts me to the play is the underlying darkness and malevolence of the fairies and their disregard for human love and desires like these are meant to be sacred emotions. That are precisely what Shakespeare's playing up also through the play, within the play way of of Paris and and Theresbe, where they're kissing each other through the wall and everything. It's going this, this depictions of true love a stupid and love is fickle and in tangible. It's cool stuff is but Stevens M come point out the projects treatment of the fairies in mods and ladies is similar to Leon Garfield's portrayal in Shakespeare stories from one thousand nine hundred and eighty five, where they describe the fairies as haunting and Oberon is described as the dread king of the night, shadowy, formidable, where the train of Gobams sprites and elves and with Park's grinning, mocking henchman by his side. So this is a quite recently before Pratchett depiction of Shakespeare's fairies as more levolent. Although Titania just she's just made, she's angry, she doesn't get the nefarious treatment. But I agree with Woodcock who argues the Shakespeare's fairies are by no means entirely denuded of their negative darker potential. Say a park is a shape shifter, which is another devilish sort of quality, and Ober on accuses Titania of similar shape shifting on mimicry, when leading theseis through the glimmering night to ravish a series of subsequently abandoned lovers. So she's a sucking but she's an incubus or they've been out on incubacy trysts were just I did. I did look up ravish to make sure it was implying what I thought it was. And yes, the the definition of ravish is to spoil, to corrupt. So even if they're not sexually ravishing, they're morally corrupting. And and the action was interesting because the actual definition, the citation there is two. Shakespeare's fifteen, nine before palm, the rape of Lacresse, which is so that's in between Robo and Joliet and mid some of that stream would cook. Also argues that puck seems determined initially to preserve a sinister version of fairy time and playing earlier the play, that the fairies very nature requires them to conclude their actions by daybreak, at whose approach ghosts wandering here and there, troupe home to church yard, damn spirits, all which, he says, paints are very dark picture of fairy kinds or associating with the ghosts of those who would damn themselves by committing suicide. And woodcock connects this to myself as description off the very witching time of night when Churchyard's Yawn and hell itself breathes out contagion to this world in the later hamlet. So this is a an image that Shakespeare plays with a lot and he is associating fairies are, at least puck is associating fairies with these sprites, are hellish contagions, as woodcock also observes. However, overone is quick to the associate fairies from such a cursed nocturnal creatures, declaring that he and his fairies are sprites of another sort. That's one of the most famous lines from the play, which suggests a conscious disassociation on Shakespeare's part. He's saying puck is presenting the old version and Shakespeare's deliberately having over on stepping and say know, these fairies aren't like the fairies that came before or, my theory, their day walkers like blade. They can exist in the night and the day, and they go around slaying, you know, bad fairies and having trouble with their zoom connection during Fairy Council meetings. Yes, would clock also observes contemporary treaties is is treat disease. Contemporary treatises on witchcraft frequently reference the idea that fairies were departed souls of the dead, while King James argued in his demonology that fairies were merely one of the demonic forms. So I which the devil interacted with models side. In the one, five hundred and seventy six case of Bessie DUMBLOP, he was executed for witchcraft after claiming she was visited by the Queen of Alpham herself. You couldn't even have a dream back then, and indeed mid someone. That stream itself concludes with a Broomstick Holding Park giving an epilog where and he says it is now time for he and the other fairies to run by the triple heckats team from the presence of the Sun following darkness like a dream. There's also our reference in that molog to a screech owl, which might be an illusion to the lith perhaps within the context if he's talking about, which is is that deliberate? That is interesting because, I mean, this doesn't need to go in. But in the Penella peered at the beginning, Penelope says that she's trying to talk to us, but she sounds like an hour and at the end the maids turn into owls. And for a long tires trying to figure out, like why are the fuck and then I came across it entirely so conventially in Auburn because for preserved are. You know, she's only allowed...

...to go back to the upper world if she doesn't eat anything in Hell. She is the pomegranate. But then the guy who sees are eat the pomegranate, she turns into a screech owl and then her maids turned into screech out, so he's turned in his screech. How to stop her him from repeating or revealing this female transgression, like like evish? And then her maids turned into owl so they can look for her forever. But the point being that I think penelope and the maid I think Atwood knows about this. I'm pretty sure. The more I think about them or I analyze it with the students. Yeah, they're turned into ours by history. They turned doing to a symbolic idea so that they can't reveal the reality of what penelope did or didn't do. That's sort of neither he know that. But the little thing I'll have a look into, because I searched high and low for a long time to figure out this ourt thing because you know, outwood doesn't do a lot of stuff, not on purpose, and that was, that's been the best thing because it lines up so perfectly. And obviously the rape of preserve and our is such a wellknown story, so important when it comes to the penelope. And Yeah, I don't know if that would would be referencing liols because, like in the Greek time context, owls a wisdom. Yeah, okay, but I mean because here I'm wondering if it's deliver it, because it's in the middle of a speech where puck is talking about witches and Heckorty. Maybe I'm right. Then I was like maybe I'm wrong and it's something to do a thought. But okay, well, screeching our sort of like a specifically screech out. Yeah, well, that's what I was saying. I was like sure, woman, and also the imagery that popped up in the nineteen century of like women as cage birds and things, but it didn't quite work. And then just lines up so perfectly with that bit out of it and then, like I've been reading it out to the students, another go oh my God. Well, even if they even if it's not director referen stop lit if the other's probably a tradition off screech outs being associated with demonic women and the Yeah, interesting. And another thing that's interesting is that the editor of the Cambridge Shakespeare collection that I'm using, John David Wilson, who's a famous shakespeare scholar, compares this passage, so puck's closing epilog to a similar one in Spencer's not one thousand five hundred and ninety five poem. How do I say it at Bethalamian? All right, do you want to read this in Spencers? Your word. Geez, okay, that's Spencer and language rather. Nei let the pook nor other evil sprites near. Let mischievous whitches with their charms. They let Hob goblins names who sense we see, not fray us with things that be not let not the Shriek Gown nor the stork be heard. Nor Damn goes caught up with mighty spells. Let none of these the dreary accents seeing near. Let the woods their mants and all their echo ring. This is the same year as mid someone as true, that's pretty cool, but that's that's pretty close. Like who's WHO's the heck here? WHO's the game and WHO's the Pratchett? Should I think in this specific example, it's Shakespeare who's the genius, and Spencer in the hell is the hack, because he's not doing anything, and we thought we will talk more about this. He's not doing anything particularly interesting with the idea of owls or fairies or anything. He's just like talking about humans who happened to be fairies. Or is Shakespeare is actually engaging with the tradition and doing interesting things in his characterization? Yes, spencers just all on it. What's thoughts the context of this? Ever, fell, I don't know a Bethalamium. I've started reading his Amoretti. He's weird love poems. I'll get to it. Yeah, because I did. I did just look over it to see if it you know, it's all about witches and it doesn't seem to be. There's just this passage in the middle of it. Okay, so I don't know what's going on there. We are going to talk about Spencer's representation of owls and things, but first I have one of my famous surprises for you. With famous surprises, I right, heady. So this is a pooks hill surprise. All right, just to say that, although Lords and ladies is build primarily as a parody of Shakespeare's midsummer night's dream, is perhaps more accurately, a revision in the fairy tale sense we were talking about, with regard to which is abroad, of Rudy had kiplings nineteen or six book, Puck of Pook's hill, which is pretty well it's pretty well known for its time. I mean kipling wrote the jungle book. That's the thing. is well known from out through Disney. Everyone forgot about him, but Disney is suspect to which is abroad. He's also a Nobel Prize winning author. HMM, I didn't know one, Lord Nobob Rush, he did. It was also a huge racist. Yeah, yeah, that was why it's going to be like why didn't he win the Nobel Prize? Because it was the s okay, but yes, puck of pook's hill. So this is part of pook's hill. Poos Hill is puck's hill. This is a story about put and it's a collection of short stories where puck sends these children back in time, like these children stumble upon him in Eddie's hill and he sends them back in time to witness the history of Britain through different stages and things. Sounds Very Spencerrian. Yeah, it's very spencer and there's one of the there's two books. There's one later in the second book. The second story is called Gloriana, and they go and meet the Fairy Queen Gloriana, and she asked him about a moral quandary which perhaps adds to of Spencer has been fantasy. But the first story in the first volume, oh, she's the titular story, park of Pook's hill, starts with a group of children putting on a play of midsummer nights dream on midsummer's Eve, which is forbidden in a fairy circle on pruks hill. Add PRATCHETT's deliberately referencing the story, but he's fully just taking that premise right, so that by doing this they summoned park, who explains to them that Pouk's hill is is puck's hill, and he complains that...

...no one remembers that anymore because it's part of this lost tradition. Now puck is small, he's notice taller than the children's shoulders, but he tells them not to call him a fairy, saying that he is one of the people of the hills and that what you call fairies are made up things. The people of the hills have never heard of little buzzflies with butterfly wings and goals petticoats and shiny styles on their hair. And I want, like a school teacher's cane for punishing bad boys and rewarding good ones. Back to Peter's idea that they aren't real things. They were things used to describe other stand or demonizes, you know, indigenous people who are pushed off land. Maybe, HMM and yeah, so puck also tells the children of so who you on, who, he says, is a murderous night assisted by Oberon in the thirteen century, and describes ober on sucking of Brazil, wherein he employs magic as black as Merlin could make it. No one was into white magic as well. What the heck? Okay, well, he's also half devil. So Yeah, you've got that and a vegetarian. Park also recounts a farmer summoning the Smith God wayland shoe his horse. So we have the part of Lords and ladies going on there. I mean there's also the fact that Pratchett's referring to the same folklore sources and influences. But Park also tells the children that if this kind of thing had to happen, that performing have been someone arts dream on the hill a few hundred years ago that they'd have all the people of the hills out like bees in jury. And for me that's the nail on the coffin. Practice taken the bees, he's taken all of it. So yes, I think there's a lot more. If we're looking at the pastache makeup, I think there's a lot more of puck of pook's hill, some ladies than mid someone US dream itself. Proud to your sneaky bugger, sticky bucket. You though no one would notice, but we did. I did it. Yeah, the second book, which is called rewards and fairies, begins with Puck's other major story of the people the hills, which is called cold iron. Ah, we're King Huan and Queen Escamlonde. I've Alf Lad who are alien to Ireland to iron salt and roofs and raise a protege. Not precisely a changeling. They're just some kid that they're influencing to take powers of rule out a wise man or healer among folk in Hous them to try and get them to take away the iron and things so they can still have influence in the modern land. Yeah, so a lots of lots of ideas been taken from kipling. They're all right. That's how I'll fleture over, which only leaves Miss Quell, Miss Quare, stuff that didn't fit. Yeah, yeah, you do the worse. Who I'm actually real as I can do that one. There's there because I was this is a parody of the ways world theme, but there's the winds one day when they sell out and then they get their corporate wins. Well, theme, so maybe the theme from Msquad should be Missqu world. Miss quorld stuff that Din fit just very wiggle sounding, especially when I do the point your hands to do the twist while I'm US prety okay, all right, so missquad stuff that didn't fit. You got anything to add that use want to throw out while we're doing this? No, I'm sorry. I got a couple which are mostly just allusions to other fairy story. So we've hit the major ones here. That, as we said, this is a pest shot, a parody of all these different these fairy tale points. Sir, I give that points out an allusion to a bunch of other fairy stories and Lords and ladies, including Peter Pan, which she says is a reference. When ponder says he remember someone asking us to clap our hands, that is about. Yeah, the original Peter Pan play ends with people being asked to clap their hands to reservate the fairy tinker bell, and this led to the idea that something only exists if you believe in it, which is something project explores in discord all the time, especially in small Gods, which is technically called the tinker bell effect, which Pretchett and Simpson point out has also contributed to the weakening of fairy folklore in the furclore of discworld. But this is also a myth that's been perpetuated through Disney. That's cool. At one point tell what likens the ancient Elf Queen to the Superficially Beautiful Geraldine in Coleridge is Christa Bell. HMM. Did you have thoughts about this? I mean not developed. She's not really a Queenie figure. She's a witchy, witchy figure. She does which he thinks, but the idea of that she's she has the Glamor No. Yeah, okay, we could do a lecture about it and tell everyone that Krista bell is an Alph and then they could all write it in their essays instead of a Lamia. Last wanted to point out that Margret is a virgin queen, just like Elizabeth Today. Right, that's definitely on purpose. We did I say that? Somewhere in my reading I came across a reference to Tom Stickers play the whore of Baw on from one sixteen or seven, which portrays the fairy Queen Titania ruling over a fairy land loosely based on Spencerian allegory, and I wanted to ask a few knew of that. That's interesting because that's all based on the other Goa to Mary, Queen of Scott's in book five of the Fairy Queen, where article is imprisoned by Radigan, who is the queen of this alternative Kingdom of thing, which is basically Mary Queen of Scotts, where she's totally justified and ruling. But he goes there to try and dethrone her for no reason other than he wants to colonize it, and then she imprisons them and puts him in women's garb and he kind of likes it. Okay, yeah, he gets into it and then BRITTAMT has to come rescue him and he's really emasculated and sad. So ver read the Fairy Queen People, but the the whore of Babylon's, what's her name do essay...

...in Book One, right, yeah, and I think that's how they try to set up Mary Queen of Scott's quite a bit. is like this, this dirty wore who wants to take a kingdom, when really she had more acclaim to the Throne Than Than Elizabeth, which is why it was such a big deal that they keep her out. Okay, HMM. I've got a note here referencing Diane Purkis's book troublesome things, a history of fairies and fairy stories from two thousand which is just there to a remind me to read it, which I did, but I read this and I'd read so much else that there was nothing new in this book. But I did want to point out I have read this book, given how much we have relied on purposes work with the witchcraft history to Fred her fairy history book. It just I've read a lot of other things first. So it didn't actually add anything. That's just my call. The fire US ad did my research, God damn it, and we'll talk more about her stuff within the Latian to park and game and I think yeah, so that's it, which means we get to move on to the next book, which is masquerade. So we'll be back next month to talk about yeah, masquerade and musicals and the fan of of the opera and whatnot. In the meantime, we might release a patreon bonus episode about Neil gaiman's mission nights dream from the same answer. Keep an eye out for that. Cool, cool, and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. There will be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign up to our patreon page and get all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any bonus episodes or specials that we end up doing. If you're after more of us, alice hosts her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with a fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing outtakes. You can put this in the out takes. I bought a shirt that says Goblin because Rad and I constantly calling each other Goblin and Gremlin and anyway, then Elf, I know it's got a Gremlin. I'm cursed, clay, he's tepping mortal that. It's constantly interchanging. But then I told think about it. Very cool, I know. Thank you. Nick X was like you need to get a scarf that says these nuts, and I was like, all right, well, I'm glad you're in Cobi. So I kind of hit you for that. So dose nuts. It was a hardcore band. I've talked about these out so I have had multiple shits. Actually, I had at least one shit in my lifetime that had these nuts, and then you have a google. These nuts, gob one days. Not See, I get it. No, I had the Victorian crown because they were from Victoria, so it was Victoria's crown. It said these nuts, but the's nuts and and I didn't want this on record, but I feel like I have to now. Yeah, is the terribly misogynistic? No, but they came out when I was like fifteen, sixteen, so you know, we unquestioning just went yet. But they're the ones who have the song that starts with let's talk about bitches. I'm talking thirty six, twenty, thirty six inches. Yeah, you've told me about she's guy, because every time when I'm doing research for this, every time I say, well, we're going to talk about witches, and I had I go, I'm talking thirty six straight off the six inches here and then so on and so forth. So that's a better in my head because it's something that I listened to when I was sixteen, and I apologize. Yeah, so I agree with Woodcock, who I've used that, whose name is would cook. I wasn't going to say anything. I was gonna here. Surely half I do. That's it. Sold. was like Wood Cock. I was so mature. What was good.

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