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4C – Witches Abroad - Part 3

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We wrap up our extended coverage of Witches Abroad with an examination
of mirrors in feminist literature and fairytale revisions, Lilith's origins, Granny's cultural chauvinism, Mrs Gogol, Carnival and the power of parody in combating postmodern pastiche.

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts 

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod 

What's Disk World? It's DIS world podcast analysis. Yeah, Baym Josh and I'm Alice and I'm very low energy because this is the third episode on which is abroad, which is meant to be one episode's and then two episodes, but is now three because that is the magical which number right. Yeah, we could do it, we can go for seven. Yeah, a bit turned out on Fairy Tales, Alice, although we're not really going to be talking about fairy tales that much this episode. That was mostly the last episode where we talked about all of that and Disney and things. Bit About Snow White and this episode, but mostly we're looking at some of the guests sociological and political themes that are going on in the book. Yeah, els is nodding. Yeah, we are. And the first thing we want to talk about is mirrors. Originally, one of the like, the two things I liked about the book and the one thing I did not. One of the things I wanted to say was I really like Lillis cool mirror room, but for we're mirrors. It's all folks in the middle. It's focusing the power and stuff, and I thought that was a really cool image. And then the more I looked into it, I realized that's sort of like already a trope. That's not really this original thing so much. I do think it's a cool version of it. But in the seventeen century wealthy women had rooms called our cabinet, lumbrous has or paneled studies. So all the walls are divided off into all these sections and in each of these sections is a mirror on every wall. So this is a Prochett appropriation rather than an invention. And, as multiple critics have pointed out, Lillis Mirror Room also recalls the Marquis Ma Queez has man. Words are hard. The Marquis has Harem in Angela Carter's bloody chamber that we talked a lot about last episode. Yeah, so you haven't read that one, have you? You going to be haven't got around to it. Yeah, the room that he brings her in, the blue big guy brings the lady into and they have a lot of sex, is all done in a room surrounded by mirrors so that she is like watching herself as all this is happening. So yeah, also in the Third Oz book, Ozma of Oz from one thousand nine hundred and seven are the narcissistic, murderist Princess Languire of the land of Ev has many exchangeable detachable heads, and she's trying to get Dorothy's for our own, because Dorothy's like the prettiest. Well, when she's trying to cut off her head and keep it for as part of a collection, which ties into the snow white stuff. Right, who's the fairest of the bowl's Dorothy, I'm going to cut off her head. She also has a room of mirrors that she keeps all their spear heads in it, which is something you see in the return to Oz film, where the character is combined with the evil, sorcerous Mumby who we talked a bit about in the first parts. It's all coming together. Sort of mirrors also appear as great luxuries in pros version of Cinderella and blue beard, and are also a frequent feature of second way feminist criticism, which is largely based on psychoanalysis. Unfortunately, the French critic, so being a mel call bone, even argues that feminine itself is a creation of the mirror, noticing how misogynist cultures often identify female evils with the evils of the looking glass. And points out that from the thirteen century on, Eve, as in Adam and eve, is often depicted brandishing a mirror, connecting her with the medieval conception of Vanitas, which isn't just the name of the fourth best and our nough Rak record, but a reminder of death that is meant to point out the frivolity of vanity and physical goods, which was often represented by a woman holding a mirror. Now, I've done a lot of talking there, but Alice, this is this is one of your things, right, we're talking about even even the mirror, and even the mirror and the Vanitas and all that. So we know the story of Narcissus or Narcissus. Well, why don't you just run people through it? So, in Ovid Narcissus looks at his reflection in a lake and he thinks, I'll Gosh, that young man looks pretty. So he sits down and keeps looking at it and he can't rip himself away from it and eventually he dies and turns into a Daffodil, which is good for him. Oh, I didn't know the DAFFODIL part. Yeah, this is just the man who falls in love with his own reflections and love with himself, and it's the idea of self love going to the extreme. But it's connected to Eve because pride is always represented as putting the self above everything else, and self love, therefore, is almost in the ultimate form of pride. He became so selfinvolved that he died next to us, next to a lake in Milton's paradise, lost with Eve. When she is first wakes up and becomes conscious, she sort of wanders off and she finds a lake that she sees her reflection in and she think, so, my Gosh, that looks really beautiful. And then a voice calls her away, and it's Adams Voice, and she leaves, but she does it reluctantly. And what this is meant to represent is that within eve there is already a form of pride, but it is kind of a healthy form of pride. What that is curious and interested, but isn't going to sit by the lake a day and engage in sort of prideful self love. She's just kind of looks at it, thinks all that's pretty and then is called away by Adam. But it does foreshadow everything to come and also complicate the idea of free will. and W whether or not that humans were made already with...

...the capacity for full within them, and then whether or not God basically said everything up. So complicates Bilton story, but it also complicates character of even something more than just subject to Adam. It represents her as having her own form of pride, but then that self interest is ultimately punished and self interest is ultimately funny. So it starts off as healthy and Nice, and then later Satan comes along and uses that, appeals to that, calls her the empress and the greatest of all gold's creations and the most beautiful, and she thinks, Oh yeah, I am though, and does whatever she wants. And so it then becomes corrupted. Essentially right. So it's not her own female vanity sort of yes self needed to be kept a check. Is a specifically a corruption by an outside. I mean Satan is not necessarily male, but masculine. Yeah, influence and and Adams version of this is curiosity. So it both of them are kind of a form of curiosity. But Adam keeps asking Raphael for more information, more of formation. Unto Raphael's is no. The point is they're both healthy expressions of pride and independence, but then become corrupted by sayings influence. Yeah, and this is a thing. Like when, I think I read one of your things right when where you brought up even the mirror and I was like the seems irrelevant, and you were like no, no, good, like the mirror is a thing. And the more I've read, like yet are eve looking at a reflection in the water? Is Our thing, like everyone talks about it. And so, yeah, they mirrors tied in with these conceptions of corrupted femininity, which obviously ties into Lilith. Yeah, the PRATCHETT character, not the Jewish mystical devil, which we'll talk about later, but it's also there's an emphasis on mirrors throughout feminist literary criticism as well, especially with Gard to fairy tales, which is largely due to our favorite scholars, Sandra and Gilbert and Susan Gubar, Wash your mouth out. Yeah, and their influential one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine feminist treatise, the mad woman in the attic. Now as Alice is reaction. I tell you, I'm being a bit facetious there, because Gilbert and Gubar are not our favorite scholars, not even close. Yeah, maybe at least favorite scholars. I appreciate them in the work they've done, but I think a lot of that work is wrong. Yeah, to give a rundown of Gilbert and Gubar when they running in one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine. They their big deals in sort of second wave revisionist feminist literary criticism. The mad woman in the attic is their big book which, yes, sort of talks about how their argument is that historically women and women writers have been portrayed as essentially crazy women. Right there, the mad woman the attic is from Jane are. It's the wife who's locked up in the addict. Any sort of creativity or independence from women is must be contained or imprisoned by the patriarchy. Is they're reading. And then they sort of say that the romantic writers and all these nineteen century writers up to when they're running in the mid twentieth century a writing back against this and they're sort of breaking out of these molds. And then they're sort of arguing that it's impossible that they can't break out of the molds. Is kind of like Harold Bloom's anxiety of influence. It's like these women are trying to break out of the molds, but that because of the the strength of the patriarchy, they can't, and I find that annoying. Yeah, there's a little bit selfdefeating. It's also it's interesting. I'm trying to I'm trying to use avoid using synonyms for whack, but whack because though. Yeah, but given that their argument is that men tell creative women they're crazy, and I'm here called you, but this is this is pretty nice, guys. Whack. It's whack. As a woman, as a straight white SIS woman, it whack. That is your privilege, that's my privilege. Yeah, there's lots of ridiculous psychoanalytic stuff mixed in as well, and it's not just us. Right. So, although they've become incredibly influential since the mad woman in the addict, the book was originally met with some apprehension from a lot of feminist scholars, such as Mary Jacobus and Susan Lancer, who were troubled by what they saw as a flattening out of literary ambiguity and as zealous desire to impose a single framework and false coherence onto a many voiced and many sided history of women's reign. Yeah, so lansay even argues that Gilbert and Gibbar overlooked many of the salties of the text they were analyzing by using literaturism mirror for their own sense of self. Yeah, that's good, because a common critique of Gilbert and your bar, and it's the one that you said, is that they don't sufficiently take into account the geographical and historical context of the stories they analyze, attributing too much value to the author of the text. Yeah, right, they're over emphasizing Mary Shelley's autobiographical representation rather than the broader themes that she's engaging with. And like in a messed up way, because Mary Shelley was obviously engaging with ideas from Milton in her own ways. We've instead, they're saying that she's being imprisoned by Miltonic Gate is, but actually she's engaging with them. And the same way they call Milton an angry, sexist, misogynous. It's like yeah, by our standards, of course, but by his standards, like his representation of eves incredibly forward thinking. So again frustrating. Yeah, I don't have the exact quotes in front of me, but like they go both ways. With Shelley. They say she's imprisoned and she can't break out of it and that Frognanstein is the most imprison in this miltonic patriarchy because it is a...

...rewriting or reinterpretation of Paradise. Last and well, I don't agree with that. I follow their argument right this lady can only express herself through this patriarchal text. But then they say somewhere else that by doing this, this is the way to embrace independence, by taking these meths and reinterpreting so, along with being just kind of all over the place and have this really contextless stuff in it, the actual argument is hard to follow and they seem to country predict themselves a lot. Yeah, Jacobis who is a fellow of the British Academy and Commander of the British Empire, so big deal in terms of literary scholarship stuff. Although she acknowledges the mad woman in the attic as among the most ambitious and, in its own way, artful works of feminist literary criticism to appear in America in recent years, criticizes Gilbert and Gubbar for willfully misreading the text they study. In the interest of creating their own mythology around women writers, so that what is lost in their analysis is precisely the female text itself, Gilbert and Gubba themselves and posing a form of tie lacing which immobilizes the play of meaning in the text. WHO's hidden plots they uncover, often alligning themselves with the romantic mythmaking their analysis is supposedly positioned against. She also says Gilbert and Guba themselves become spinners of tales, or spinsters, like those who stories they tell, which brings us back to this idea of Rumplestiltskin, the Queen, Spinning. Oh Yeah, we talked about last episode, right. Yeah, because you brought up the what's her name? An LPE. Penelope in the Odyssey is spinning on her loom the entire time while she waits for a dissiest to come back. So I did do a little bit of research into this and I couldn't find anything specifically linking spinning to the idea of masturbation, which is what we were playing around with last time, mostly because of for its ridiculous psychoanalysis stuff. What I found there was that it was usually spinning is just a domesticated women's role. So it was meant to represent the natural domesticated order. And then if the spinning stopped, then the domestic occations come undone. So while while she keeps spinning, she maintains the household, yes, she does, rather than a sexual signifier. But Spinster is the word that Jacobis uses their saying they're spinsters of tales, because I also wanted, if yeah, connecting it to spinners of tails in the Odyssey and things. The Spinster, as to find it in the OED, is a woman, or rarely a man, who spins, especially one who practices spinning as a regular occupation. But it says it's also appended two names of women, originally in order to denote their occupation, but subsequently, from the seventeen century, became the proper legal designation of one still unmarried. MMM. So it's weird that this term spinning spinster is also a preservation of the domestic order, but also at some point the ideal is that it's meant to give way to some kind of male influence. If you're a spinster your whole life, you never get married, so there's no domestication to preserve. Yeah, and I think. I think while it's APP that they've used it to describe a Gilbert and Gubbar, it also then just becomes like again part of the problem, gibing Gubara trying to develop a feminist critique. They use like a pretty antifeminist term to describe what they've done. Is like, AH, yeah. It's also interesting because in discworld the prostitutes are seamstresses. I still reckon the sexual connotations of the air in some cases. Well, that's all it is in the discworld, right. Yes, spinners are the sex workers. Good for them, yeah, but that's no real firm conclusion. But there is something going on here with female sexuality and spinning, even if it's not a direct metaphor from masturbation, as the psychoanalyst would have you believe. So back to Guitt and Gubar, because now we actually have to talk about what they say because despite all this criticism, yes, the mad woman the addict has been incredibly influential. And they begin the mad woman in the attic, with an analysis of the Queen's looking glass as a metaphor for literary paternity, which our boys ippes. The fairytale studies grew describes as a particularly penetrating analysis, which I thought was a pretty amusing in choice of words. In the same way that Carol J Adams has a book from one thousand nine hundred and ninety, the sexual politics of me, a feminist, vegetarian, literary or critical theory, now describes her work in her own profile as seminal. So lots of Feldah's going on there. I mean, this is just the patriarchy right. Words mean dicks. It's the language they've given us and that means it's all about penises. Everything is a penis. But to plow on with Gilbert and Hubar and fairy tales and mirrors. So they argue that the GRIMM's little snow why? Follows the mythological little story, which will get to by dramatizing the essential but equivocal relationship between pervasive cultural depictions of female characters as either Angel Women or Monster Women, later of whom they describe as an undeniable witch who is doomed to the inward search that psychoanalysts censoriously define as narcissism. This is back to the the looking in the water thing. Right, women are either pure angels or they are massissist Dick Devil's that's your two options under patriarchy, and you got a pickle. Yep. So, as Vanessa Juson explains in...

...her two thousand and eleven book critical and creative perspectives on fairy tales, Gilbert and Gibar view the mirror as a symbol of Patriarchy and as such it cannot simply be destroyed. The traditional ending of Snow White promises a continuation of the status quo with regard to gender roles. It's titular Damsel, having merely exchange one glass coffin for another. So yes, there's this chapter, is an analysis of Snow White. And they go in and say it's all about hitting women against each other. Right, queen is happy as long as she is the fairest of the mall, and then when Snow White comes, this is the threat of a younger, more virile replacement. So she tries to offer and then the resolution of the story is the restoration of the patriarchal order by Snow White kicking out the Queen and marrying the prince. Yeah, okay, all right, I see it. Yeah, to tie this into which is a broad right, you've got nanny and Lilith being pitted against each other. There the Angel Woman and the Devil Woman. Of accept the inversion there is, of course, Grannie is in system that she's the devil woman being forced to be the angel woman, and Leith is the devil woman who thinks she's the angel woman. But then lithe is also the one who is trying to she doesn't want to install the patriarchy. In fact she's a matriarchal ruler, but she is defeated by the lineage of the younger yeah, emberella being restored, so there's something of that model being preserved there. That she is a female threat. You now marking against myself. I guess what I was saying was that she's the one imposing these fairy towel stories are this goes back to I don't know what Lillis motivation is for imposing fairy tales, like she wants to control which she's perpetuating these myths rather than I'm doing them. Or we're going to get to that when we talk about pestation parody, aren't we? We are, but it still doesn't make sense why Lilith is doing it. I guess it's just the cycle of abuse, hurt people, hurt people and all that. She's been constrained by these myths and these fairy tales our whole life. So she's going to force someone, every one else, and it well that that becomes her way of getting power, isn't it? She uses the system against other people, which is good with GIBARD's argument, isn't it? Yeah, so I guess she's using the system against other people, as you said, rather than to help herself and other women. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, the last section of which is a broad is sort of a revision of snow white as much as Cinderella. It's interesting that Neil Gaiman, so preache's friend and collaborator WHO's going to keep coming up as we discuss these books, he also has a nine hundred ninety four short story called Snow Glass and apples, which is a revision of Snow White, in which a benevolent Queen sees herself reflected in her daughter's eyes as she is roasted alive by a Vampire E. Snow White Right, sort of a direct flip there, with making the queen the good one and snow white the bad one, sort of like Pratchett does with nanny and Lil but there's less of that ambiguity there. It's just snow. White is an evil vampire and the queen is good and she's become a victim of this patriarchal cycle. Also reflected. We've got mirrors again, because their Doppel gangers right. That's the idea of the mirror. So it's in just sing. Even while Pratchett's inversion and revision is more complex and more ambiguous, it still maintains this dichotomy. There has to be a good one and a bad one. They can't be like they're not ambiguous figures themselves, Lily and granny, even if they are ambiguous figures, but the story, not just the stories in the world, but Pratchett story, Pratchett's structural thing, makes one be a good versus bad it comes down to a fight between good and evil. There's no avoiding that narrative imperative. So, continuing on that theme of Mirrors, the literary critic Warren mourte argues that reading itself can be conceived of as a kind of mirror gazing, that among the many things we see in literature is ourselves writ large, and that in doing so we construct a vision of ourselves we may sometimes recognize immediately and sometimes not at all. I'm so glad you've put that note in afterwards. Well, yes, I've said, this is the kind of scholarship I find largely meaningless and unhelpful. Right. How are we meant to apply this? People see themselves in books, books and mirrors. Yeah, then what I do think it's touching on the themes of which is abroad, in that people construct themselves through stories. So you read stories and then you go and you want to and it influences the way you behave and influences the way we think. That's Why a vision of stories is not important, like we've both thought the penelope ad etc. And especially when discworld which Pratchett has described in Reaperman, which I think comes out just before weird sisters. They come out the same ye, in one thousand nine hundred and Ninetye so they're probably been written at the same time. Project starts off that book book by proclaiming the discworld both a world and a mirror of worlds. So PRETCHETT had mirrors on the mind while he was writing this and it reflects the broader idea and see what I did there, that we are meant to better understand our world through Pratchett's disordered discworld reflection of it. So there is something in at least in terms of discworld and and this sort of satirical person and fantasy, that we are seeing a weird, distorted reflection of our world. But then that can influence and and construct identity in the real world if you're taking those and then applying them elsewhere. I guess yeah, and then we have a turtles...

...all the way down to what I did there situation. You had two thousand and nine article. Book as Mirror, Mirror as book. That's that thing and I cut it out of the last episode. But what do we call that? When something goes one way and then it goes back the other? Gasmas that thing, that rhetorical device. I don't powetry. That's also it's a mirror right. It's a reflection, down to fancy word for a reflection, because it's book as mirror, Mirror as book. It's like they're looking in a mirror. It's pretty good. That's what Satan does and he's been a litloque like he suddenly looks himself in the face and then that's when we get all those examples of Chiasmas. Yeah, and then he goes and corrupts he's innocence posys evil be there are my good, which is an inversion of reality. Anyway go, I'm sorry to make a heaven of hell, or whatever it was. What's the line? The Heaven of Hell, a Hell of heaven. There we go, because hell is a distorted reflection of heaven. A man, I get it. So it shadows notes. Even in novels such as which is abroad, which do not take place in overtly patriarchal settings, mirror specifically represent women's powers and fantasies right their associate with women, not men. I'm sure there's exceptions to that, but generally I think that's pretty true, although she notes that there is a significant difference between early fairytale reimaginings, in which women literally struggle to survive against male perpetrated violence in a world run by and for men, and which is abroad, in which all the major characters are female and they all wield varying degrees of power for various reasons of their owns. This is back to the observation from the Australian writer pointed out that, yeah, it's really kind of strange that the protagonists in practice books are often women. It's not something you see outside of like lady night fantasy and stuff. So yeah, she points out that all of the political power plays in the novel are entirely female and that all of the men in the novel are puppets, with the king of genuine literally render the Zombie who was only given life and power by Mrs Goggal. That's fair. Did you have any thoughts about that other than that they make they make clowns of all the men they meet that stand in their way. Do they like the guys, the gambling guys brought the gambling scene? I think that's pretty representative of that idea. The men think that they've got the women under their power and the women don't let them. There's not even a question really. MMM, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of the king like being a puppet, because the idea is to restore the king to power. Is he a puppet of Miss Goggle or is he kind of meant to be a Golm Zombie thing and that? Do they have a will of their own. Yeah, I think. I mean he has a bill of his own because she's preserving him, not as a political play but because he's her lover. Yeah, sweet, you know, some being duty kind of way. It's. So, yeah, that's some pretty like incightfled stuff from shadows. But then we also get lost in the psychoanalytic stuff where she argues that project represents the mirror as a story itself, although, as she notes, the reader is constantly told to look into the mirror. That's at the start of the book. Look into the mirror, so that reading the story and looking into a mirror become the same thing again. What are we meant to do with this? Guess it's just the idea that art reflects life, real life and real life reflects art and all that. But chants therefore argues that the writer of which is abroad and must be Lilith. Okay, so the book and the Mirror are not only conflated but become expressive of Lilith plans and fantasies. How do we apply this Ellis? I don't know that we can. I think that's just her trying to be real smart. Yeah, it also the author of the book is Not Liith, because everything is told from that which is perspectives where we can't see them. I'm not buying that. Nevertheless, as shadows notes, mirrors are also the medium of granny weather waxes victory, noticing that she defeats Loth not by rejecting mirrors out right, but by acknowledging their powers and then using them against loith and then later accepting the reflection as an aspect of our own personality. You know, I don't know about that, because I'll point of the bit in the mirrors that she says none of the reflections of me. I am me. So I'm not sure if she does accept reflections as part of her personality so much as she just manipulates them to turn Lois power back on herself. Does so? Head ology judo there, head Ology Judah. Yeah. The book ends with, Yeah, the scene of the mirror maze, which is a big trope in postmodern fiction right, mostly because it's a it's a revision of the nighttown scene in James Jose's Ulysses and uses regularses. It's on my list gets so bloody long, isn't it? Have you read ulysses now? I haven't got a run to it. I did mean to read this chapter for this but I just didn't get around to it. Because there's a chapter, because you'll see, is it's a rewriting of the Odyssey and modernisty running of the Odyssey. Yeah, and this chapter is called Cercy, so it's the witch chapter and the main the protagonist even. Yeah, he wanders around the city and ends up in a mirror maze and then prosmodern has become obsessed with the Odyssey and rewriting the Odyssey. Right, it's the older story that perpetuates through time. But they also become obsessed with rewriting this fun House Mirror scene. Right, you have lost in the fun house. Yeah, you should mention which, literally the guy goes into the mirror and he gets trapped in there and loses himself, which is something we had in the US movie the other year. Every Batman story with the joker ends in a fun house thing. Even, I think it's the second author John Wick movie ends with a mirror fight. So this is this is...

...a trope that keeps coming up, the mirror thing, and it kind of annoys me because it seems very played out at this point. Every time I say mirror maising like her. Okay, but you liked it in which is abroad. It was one of your favorite bits. Well, I like the mirror room, okay, but she was like sitting in and focusing her power there. Yeah, as soon as someone enters a mirror, mirror maze, I'm just like fuck, how long are they going to stumble around until someone smashes through the mirror and punches him in the face? Yeah, it's funny how these very meaningful tropes now are just so overdone that we roll our eyes and it's like, okay, well, we either need new tropes or we need new takes on the tropes. But then, yeah, I'm thinking like Pratchett would have used it, perhaps thinking all this is useful, this would be interesting, this would be a fun play on the thing. But but much like trait, by the time we get to it now it's been so done. I mean, I do think he does a good take on it, like it's not that they end up in a mirror mais it is. It does have something to do with Lilith being captured in the mirrors and her fractured identity, like there is something more going on there than just like who who's the real me. But it's it's almost that running the story, running down the mountain side to its logical conclusion, like we had mirrors. So this has to end in a mirror maze. There's no other possible ending for this story, you know, postmone ess fiction setting. MMM, I think that's everything about mirrors. Do you have anything else about mirrors? I think we've covered the mirrors for the rest of this podcast. Or want to zoom in and do some close analysis of the major players, the major which is in this book being Lilith, granny weather wax and Miss Googo, who will talk a little bit about the stakeholders in this, although granny's not really a stakeholder. She's more of a come in and kick everything over and tell very want to do survive. Yeah, but we'll start with lilith. So it's Pretchett and Simpson explain in the Foklore of Discworld, in earthly myth and legend, Lilith is the name of a terrible female demon noted for pride as well as cruelty. It is said that she was Adams first wife but refused to submit to his authority and fled from eating into the desert, where she consorted with demons became a demon herself. Ever since, she's exploited her beauty by seducing sleeping men in their dreams and satisfied her cruelty by killing women and childbirth and strangling young babies. She feeds on their blood and sucks the marrow from their bone. Right. So we're gonna be to this Cannibal which imagery coming in there as well? That's fun stuff. I mean, the littles are pretty well known figure, I would say, maybe not in general popular culture, but certainly in fantasy. Would understand the connotations of little at the sin as that name comes up. Also, like, if we're accepting that story, which will pick a partner moment, right, if she's the first wife of Adam, is she the first which thing? I mean if you're a pick if you're going by the Christian storyline of humanity. Yeah, they picked that up. You probably haven't seen it. Some people may have seen it, but the latest representation of Sabrina, which started off really good and then got really bad, litt is in it. Okay, yeah, and they talk about her being the first which and in the end, the which is old. Change Their Coven and stead of Worshiping Satan, they worship blowth and it becomes this whole like we were worship the first which thing. And she's quite interesting because it shows that she actually was kind of in love with Adam, is the storyline that they take, but that she couldn't like, she still couldn't subject herself to him, and then she goes over the devil who mistreats her and then she has her own storyline. So like it's as bad as Sabrina has gotten. There are some really good and interesting takes on these quite traditional ideas. Now that little stories line sounds really cool. Maddie watched the whole thing and I sort of, you know, sort in passing, and it always looked pretty bad and even yeah, by the end Maddie was like it's just gotten so bad. I don't even know if she finished it. I struggled, but those last year yeah, for Science, and this is I was almost going to say, this is sort of the narrative imperative thing, like you can't have a story about which is and how without having all earth character and a Satan character. These days, a sort of expected, although surprisingly little isn't really talked about in all the major your secondary sorts I've been using to explore real world witchcraft. Like she just doesn't come up in any of Hutton or purposes stuff really at all, which might be because she's not really a thing. So the idea of lith comes from early versions of the Hebrew Bible, where it is said I've God's judgment of Jerusalem in the book of Isaa are that thorns will come up in its fortified palaces, nettles and brambles in its fortified cities. It will be a haunt for jackals and a bode for ostriches. Indeed, Lilith will settle there and find herself a place of rest. So lithe has literally been translated from the Hebrew as night demon. However, modern scholarships position is that this is a mistranslation. Right, Lileth is not a night demon, and it doesn't make sense for it to be a night demon, since all the other creatures in the passage are wild animals. Right, it's like they were ostriches and then and then a she which and then also it's like Lilis should be logically another animal, and it seems more likely that Lilith, the night demon represents some kind of night bird, or screech owl, as it's translated in the King James version there. So potentially a mistranslation there, but that's the only reference to lith in the Bible unless you found something else. Well, well, I'm thinking I don't think it's that. She's not a thing. I think she's a Hebrew thing. Isn't it any more looking at like the Christian idea of witchcraft or something? But also she's in Spencer, she's in Milton, she's in...

Dante. So just like a thing, but not a thing. Lilith is a thing. I meant. Lilith is not an actual like she's a Similarcera. Right, she is. She's become a thing, but there is no original lith in the Hebrew story. Like, yeah, the King James is the later Christian translation, but I'm saying the King James There is the restoration of the original translation of screech owl, because genesis is a Jewish story as much as a Christian story. I mean it's more a Jewish story than a Christian story, because Christianity doesn't exist until Christ comes along in the story and in the real world. Yeah, so it was originally a screech owl in Jewish Hebrew myth gets walked and translated and builds up this idea of lith and then gets retranslated back to screech owl in the King James Bible. But then the myth of Lilith continues on. But it's not actually referring to an original figure in the Bible. It's this mismatch of Miss Translations, right, is it in other well, it is. It's in other Hebrew stories, isn't it? Yeah, it's just not in the Bible, or what we understand as the Bible. It's in the stuff that is left out of the Bible. So the most extensive and impressive investigation of Lil its origins that I found is a two thousand and eight thesis by Jude M Blair called D demonizing the Old Testament, which was apparently published by an independent German press in two thousand and nine, but I could only get access to the thesis, so I'm going off that. As Blair observes, Lita started out more as a type of demon rather than a specific one and later developed during the Middle Ages. So the fourteen of the seventeen centuries she's dating it to their by a Jewish mysticism into the singular most feared demon of Judaism. So she traces lith's origins to the Sumerian Lilu Demons, who were the female counterparts to the male Lil so yeah, it's succubuses and incubuses right. And then, yeah, she's say, not until the fourteen century, so almost a millennium and a half after Christianity and everything that there's myth of the Lilith or Lilith herself gets solidified. She says that a demoness named Laki also appears in the store of Gilgamesh and the Houloupu Tree, which was inscribed in a stone tablet from around two thousand bce. We're in Gildgrimsh lays a dragon who is harassing the goddess Anana by hanging out nor tree in which Laki has also built a house. And then when Gilgamesh lays the dragon, it says the terror stricken demoness tears down her house and escapes into the desert. This idea will come back in the myths of the there's also references to a demons named obsioff, who has many names and moves about at night visiting women in childbirth and strangling newborn babies in the Apocryphal Testament of Solomon, which dates to the first four centuries of the common era. So lilith as an archetype of the female demons who attacks children and flees into the Della. This is around, but it's not identified as solidified into Lilith herself until much later on. Okay, so Lilis backstory as the first wife of Adam actually comes from an anonymous eighth century satire called the Alphabet of Ben Sarah, which is about a baby who is born with the ability to talk and who becomes something of a prophet. Have you read this? You said, I read I knew of it because Peter and I've talked about it at length. Right, why? went and read it and when asked by King Nebukanezza the second to heal his six son, curt and Sarah writes an amulet inscribed with the angels of Medicine, telling him do you want to read this one? God also created a woman from the earth, as he had created Adam himself, and called her lilith. Adam and Lilith immediately began to fight. She said, I will not lie below and he said, I will not lie beneath you, but only on top, for you are fit only to be in the bottom position. Well, I am to be the superior one. Las responded, we are equal to each other and as much as we're both created from the earth. But they would not listen to one another. Where Lila saw this, she pronounced the ineffable name and flew away into the air, said the holy one to Adam. If she agrees to come back, fine, if not, she must permit one hundred of her children to die every day. The angels left God and pursued Lilith, whom they overtook in the midst of the sea and the mighty waters, where in the Egyptians were destined to drown. They told her God's word, but the she did not wish to return. She said, I created only to cause sickness to infants. If the infant is male, I have dominion over him for eight days after his birth, and a female for twenty days. But she swore to them, by the name of the living in eternal God, whenever I see you or your names or your forms in an ambulant, I will have no power over that infant. What we would think of as the common story of Luth this is the fully formed version of it. I don't think been the anonymous author been Sirih's coming up with this. This is a representation of something that's been a really for yeah, things, yeah, but this is the most complete tale of Lilith as the original wife of Adam. It's interesting also that her whole thing is I don't want to lie underneath you and will credity, for equal beers. Were both created out of the earth like her original argument is pretty sound. It's not even that she thinks she's better than Adams. She's just saying that we should have an equal position. She is the original feminist. Yes, suck on that, Mary whilston craft, suck on that. Well, I think God would had a whole Bible, a whole diary dedicated to her. Sucking on it. I did not know that I told you this. God, when kept a kept a diary of when they fought. God's fuck diary. Yeah, so back...

...to Ben Sarah after that. Just there's no way to transition out of God's fuck diary back into thirteen Sich nights night century Hebrew mythology. But all right, I don't know how we got there. I just can't get back, but the editors of the version of the alphabet Sarah that I'm using claim it maybe one of the earliest literary parodies in Hebrew literature and also spends a lot of time at the end discussing the nature of the angel of death, which I thought was interesting given that we're doing Pratchett now. It's satires based around death or with death as a prominent character. Just an interesting connection. So just just to elaborate on the Ben Siah story a bit because I think it's interesting and also gross been. Sarah is conceived because it's a virgin birth. But the way this is explained, pence Syria's conceived when his father goes to a bath house and participates in what is essentially a circle jerk and his quote drop was preserved until his own daughter came back to the bathhouse and it entered her vagina. Oh yeah, seven months later she gave birth to a baby boy who was born with teeth and with fully developed powers of speech. Seven months has too few. Well, that's seven, it's seven, but it's also one of the things that premature children in Hebrew mysticism are apparently like they're meant to be holly or more divine because they're more quickly developed. So it's not just random that their pick seven, seven is to show that he is, okay, more superior birth. There's also a couple of other prophets who, like ladies, go to bath houses and sit on piles of sperm and then they give birth and two things. But that the reason why Ben Siah is so knowledgeable is because it's specifically her father's sperm. Yeah, that's weird. It's very strange, and the thirteen century rabbi preres of Corby apparently used the account of Ben Sirih's conception to argue the permissibility of artificially and seminating a woman with her father. Spurn No. So on the first part of Ben Serah, he is taught his alphabet by a teacher and respond, since he can already speak, with a nugget of wisdom beginning with each lether, and these nuggets are incredibly sexist. So he taunts his teacher, who he says, doesn't have a worry in the world except for the fact that his wife is ugly. Been Sarah, then gives advice such as by a beautiful woman's countenance. Many have been destroyed and numerous are all her slain ones. So all right, but be thankful you have an ugly wife, because beautiful women are dangerous. He also says, cherished by every person. I'm male children, but who would be the father of females, to which the teacher responds, but I have seven daughters against seven and they spin. Yeah, and they spin and do all the housework for me, so the domestic stuff. And he says, but if there were no females, where would all the males come from? And Been Sarah Responds. Poor man, you comfort yourself with worthless consolation, for, as the sages stated, happy as the man whose children are male, and worry to the father of the female. And when a female comes forth from the belly of her mother into the air of this world, the heavens, the earth, the stars and the constellations, everything that has been created in the world mourn that this has happened. Yikes. Yeah, God, I feel bad about being born. MMM. He also says that having a daughter is the worst because come her marriage, you will worry the most that she will not have sons, and when she grows old, you will fear that she will engage in witchcraft. That is my father's main concern, that you weren't pray, APP create and then become a witch and I become a witch. Yeah, so's just to say that all of you, you are saying Lillis the original feminist, but are not in a particularly feminist text there. Oh No, and the associations with women who don't marry our witches, they're spinsters. Were Go. Strange connection there. Now I've written. We have a been Sarah surprise and I'm very excited about this one. Yeah, so we said the the background of Earth comes from Ben Sarah giving advice to king never knezzar. So another thing he advises King Never Canezzer on Alice. I'm going to get you to read this section for us, please. Sending this to you right now. You have not seen it before. Some days later, the king said to Ben Sarah, I have a daughter who expels a thousand farts every hour. Cure her. Is This my dad? Been Sarah replied? Sent her to me in the morning with her attendance and I will heal her. The next morning she came with her attendance. Yeah, she did. When Ben Sarah saw her, he began to act as though he were very angry. Why are you very angry, she asked him. Your father decreed that I must expel Onezero Farts, and he's presents tomorrow, in the following day, I'm afraid he may put me to death. He gave me an extension of three days, but I still do not know what to do. Don't worry, she said, I will go in your place and expel Onezero farts in front of him for both of us. If that is the case, replied Ben Syah, stay here with me for three days and do not break wind, so the farts will be ready on the third day. Every time I thought was about to come, the king's daughter stood up on one foot and stretched her eyes wide, as Ben Sarah told her to, and she contained herself and closed her mouth slowly until the breaking of wind stopped completely. After three days, no farts came out of from her behind. On that day, Ben Sarah took her to her father, saying go and expel one thousand farts for your father. She stood before the king, but she was unable to break wind, even once the king stood up and kissed Ben Sarah the fuck so that's the kind...

...of thing where it's talking to morrow there. Now this is followed up by wold. Are Going to get you to read the next section? Oh No. He then questioned Ben Sarah. Why? Well, farts created, all right, if not for breaking wind, a person would have diarrhea and defecated his clothes. But when a person feels that he's about to fight, he goes and attends to his needs that he will not be embarrassed and sit in filthy clothes shit. So it's just noticed that you're going to take a shit soon. Well, it's if you don't fight, you don't sure, if you don't shit, your dire and it's saying so there we go. That is the origin of lith and the origin of farts. Thank you for that gift. I thought you might like that one. All right, there's also a book by this George McDonald. Goy Is the Goblin princess one that keeps coming up, so I am going to read it before the wards and ladies episode. But yeah, it's by him, George McDonald, called Elliath from one thousand eight hundred and ninety five, where in the protagonist has led through a mirror and into another world, and apparently this was a big influence on CS Lewis's chronicles of Narnia. Be Interesting to see what the theol theology is like in that book then. Yeah, well, I didn't read it, just because I didn't. I don't have time. I have look so back to practice. Louis, though, in a nineteen article the mirror cracked representation of characters in terror pratchets, which is abroad. Joanna must have observes how lily weatherwax uses names in order to reinvent herself, that although she does not change shape physically, she does so by creating new identities. Yet muscle. Also notes that changing her name does not allow lily to become a completely new person. The one she was and partially still is lies beneath her facade, and she argues that Lily's confusion about her own identity is made apparent through the constant shifts between her names and the narrative as well, which mirrors the insatiability of her identity, while claiming that this insitiability is further reflected in the heroin Mbarella. His name also shifts between embers and Oura. Okay, because Granny weatherwaxes is me and granny and granny weatherwax, and it's different names. So there's nothing. Yes, argument, I think, sir. All Right, I threw it in there because I thought it was interesting, because the idea of reinventing herself in the power of names and sort of bring those two ideas together. But I just don't think it's there. Yeah, because just people have different names. Yeah, right, Manny ogus Gif and a disgusting old baggage. In fact, the only character who has a singular name is mcgrat m and she's the one who doesn't know who she is. So by you should person's argument at all faultful. Yeah, by recognizing that. Yeah, okay, we thought that was interesting, that mcgrat is just mcgrant. She does and she doesn't perform this like granny weatherwax. Granny's not a granny, it's a similarcer. Yeah, it takes on that thing. Rose mcgret is. I am MC grant. Whatever I am, it is mcgrat, and she's the one who is also really consciously developing herself, like working on herself. Or is the others are just like I am who I want to be. Yeah, so I thought that was pretty interesting. Points for mcgrat there for actually being self assured and not needing to put on the facade. She probably be a ravenclow tend points to Ravencourt. Now mcgratt to be a huffle puff. You're right, I was just thinking that. I'm maybe she's from yeah, half a buff granny be a slytherin. Absolutely og would be griffin door, wouldn't she? Yeah, yeah, that checks out. Nevertheless, as Farrell medicine notes, when Lili weather wax changes people shape, she does so in the ermoneous assumption that this will enable her to change who they are. She confuses an outward appearance with reality and, when asked to find herself, she can only look in mirrors, and most I compares this to get witten, who bars claim that to be caught and trapped in a mirror is to be driven inward, obsessively studying self images as if seeking a viable self. Yes, or something I cut out of the first part just for the sake of length is we did a bit of an analysis of trip my crossing's chapter being ones me whitchy personality at identity on the discworld from the discord and philosophy book, where he argues that because granting weather wax is saying that, well, you're your descendants of everyone and you're your me and that's all you are, that she's sort of arguing for genetic determinism. But I think that is not true because in the mirror scene at the end she is empowered by the use of the identity Cook Etero that we talked about right she says, who are you? You are this one, and at that point she is not in a body. Yep, so the real granny weather wax being just her minor herself, proves that she is not a generic determines or even a materialist. She is always herself in no matter where or what she is. Yeah, so that's lily and of course lily and granny weather wax, I'd mirror images of each other, which makes this a good time to finally address granding's uncomfortable conservatives. So yeah, this is something we've been promising to talk about because it's something that stood out to both of us. Is Sort of a negative out about the book, and I know you you're all in on the granny bashing, but I do want to pull back a little bit. I wouldn't call it granny bashing. I'm not a grinning back, sure not yet. I do want to pull back a bit and say that I do recognize that granny like this is a satire that grants conservatism, is in there to be critical of it, but she's also the hero. So the story,...

I thought that is still frustrating, though, isn't. Anyway. That's fine. I don't want a granny bash, but I just want to put in for the record that my major beef, I think, with it, other than it being like uncomfortable throughout, and perhaps you know pratchet was writing for you know his time, is that it doesn't it. We've talked about this sport before. The narrative consistency is out, because that's not how she's represented in weird sisters. And yet weird sisters or equal rights, equal right. Thank you. Anyway, she changes her mind. She starts off conservative and then she changes in my whereas he or she kind of doubles down. Yeah, and this is something that not only we've knows, but something careen Sayer notes in her chapter on the witches in the guilty of literature collection, observing that stories are always pulling us towards the conventional and there is a conservative thread at work, and son of nanny's and granny's attitudes, noting that, while they teach respect for the land and the rights of other creatures, they also reinforce conservative hierarchies, such as human above animal, culture above nature and masculine above feminine. In the same collection, farrel medicine refers to granny weather wax as a benevolent dictator, drawing parallels between her and the more overtly macavelian Lord Veterinary, which I don't think is quite that seems off. They both have to be in charged and they but they one of them is actually a dictator. True preaching, and Briggs also acknowledge this in the disco companion, pointing out that granny weather wax is uncomfortable with her uncrown like clear skin and excellent teeth, stating that she's a traditionalist who believes the progress is an excuse for making bad things happen faster, which is something she says in which is abroad. So what stood out to you in particular? I mean I had a whole list. In her first episode, everywhere she goes she won't accept how things are. She forces her own understanding of culture in the world on to it and gets frustrated when those people to want Jel with it. Essentially she's like you must assimilate to me everywhere she goes and it reminds me very much of in my travels. You know, you meet people in London, for example, and hostels whatever, who'd sort of be saying, oh, London didn't used to be like this, and you'd be like, what do you mean like this? You mean the Brown people? Is that your issue? That? That's the Vibe I got from granny bat weather wax when she's traveling around. Yeah, because you're right, she does. She goes in and humor and shoes from her not being able to cope with the culture and it's funny, which is at her expense. But then she always has the upper head. She's always right, because at the start of the book, when that when they're just discussing the true granny weatherwax says, Oh, I can't be having with foreign parts. That's what joke about her. Yeah, rudishness, but she says I I'll be having with foreign parts. And then he says, well, you've been tying more pork. That's foreign, which at least we have a reference to. She has been to it more and more. Polk equal rights, as in the continuity, the granny weather wax, says, no, it's not, it's just a long way off. That's not the same as foreign yeah, foreigns where they gabble at you in heathen lingo and eat foreign muck and worship, you know, objects foreign can be quite close to if you're not careful. Now, clearly this is xenophobic, but I think at this point this is meant to be. She's going to flip that right. Yeah, this is like in equal rights, where she says no, women can't be wizards and then she realizes, oh wait, they can and makes it happen. This is setting up something to be subverted. But I don't think it, ever, is not fully up. Well, I don't know. She becomes friends with Miss Goggle and but she becomes friends, like she has a black friend. It's not like the culture. What I meant, I was like, but still, and she ends up fighting her and defeating her and telling her how to run our country. Yeah, there's something this. There's an effort made. Yeah, so the bit that really sort of cemented it for me, or my dislike, my discomfit with this conservative street in which is abroad. Is the end monolog because this is where it stops being granny's conservative attitudes that are satirized and subverted to this is Grannie's hero monolog telling people what should be done. This is the way of running your life like she isn't she goes into this other country and tells them how to run things. Becomes white saying here complex again, isn't it? Yeah, so I'm going to read the whole thing out, the big resolution of the book, and this is when, yeah, and Morella has come forth and they're deciding what to do, and she says this ain't right. You know, she's the one who want to rule fair enough, and he used magic to help her this far. I talking to Miss Goggle, who wants to put emberella on the phone and restore the monkey and God, he says. And that's all right, but it stops here. It's up to her what happens next. You can't make things right by magic, you can only stop making them wrong. Miscogart pulled herself up to a full impressive height. Who's you to say what I can and can't do here? where her God bothers, said Grannie. That's right, said nanny ogue. We've got a one to said MC grant. But you hate godmother's mistress, weather wax, said Mrs Goggle. where the other kind, said Grannie. Where the kind that gives people what they know they really need? What not what we think they ought to want? Their American then you've done your godmother and said Miss Goggle, who thought faster than most, and you did it very well. You didn't listen, said Grannie. There's all sorts of things to God mothering. She might be quite good at ruling, she might be bad at it, but she's got to find out for herself with no interference from anyone. So it's okay for Gretting, whether wax, to do it,...

...but it's not okay for Mr Goggle to do it. I mean Miss Goggle is trying to tell her to be on the throne and granny is leaving it up to her. I get that. I understand that difference, but that's all that granning. Whether ways done is is metal. Yeah, and she's going listen to me. I know best, even as Miss Gyle says, right, who's you to say what I can and can't do? Here. That's Pratchett acknowledging that, yes, she's this cultural imperious, but then he has granny weather wax on the other two, which is steam roll over and said no, this is the the way. And this is also a problem because Miss Goggle is maybe the only significant black character at all I've discworld. Yeah, I've been reading through some of the other ones and I mean I'm up. I'm going through the wizard series. I'm up to interesting times at the moment, which, woof, that's going to be an interesting one when we get to it. Okay, well, well, what was the name of the traveler who runs when meets in color flower pratchets? Representation of representation of culture isn't always great, is what we've discovered? No, and the only time black people show up is when their foreigners, like when it goes to the Egypt Kingdom and Pyramids and things. I guess tepic is a is a dark skin person, but they're always exoticized. Right. There's no one black hanging out and I've more Hawk no one explicitly so, anyway. And then the trolls and things are racially coded. And then the TV show of the watch, the watch is very culturally engender diverse. Which is it? So they sort of pushing back against that, but then also just miss the point. then. This is the point, pilot. Yes, yes, but that's all to say that, Jenny, one needs godmothers to come in and tell it what it wants. Right, it can't decide for itself or, if it does, can't be trusted. Yeah, as Pretchett rights and which is abroad, the basic unwritten rule of witchcraft seems to be don't do what you will do what I say. So he's aware of this, but he does lean into it at the end, and it's frustrating because he's done all of this discussion of witchcraft where he's looked at it as an empowering, you know, idea and these witches as the main characters in the protagonist, and then it just all becomes quite degrading. Will we get to this point? Yeah, but if that, if that is the unwritten while rule of witchcraft and the center of witchcraft, kind of degrades the whole thing that he set up. Yeah, so we're what first stood out to me, though, was how grading wants the troll to go back and live under the bridge. YEA, it says anywhether wax had nothing against rolls, but she felt instinctively that if more trolls stopped wearing suits and walking up right went back to living under bridges and jumping out meeting people as nature intended, then the world would be a happier place. Right. This is Jenic determinism coupled with xenophobia. Right, go back to where you came from. And the reference to the troll under the bridge is, of course, a reference to the fairy tale of the three billigoats gruff, which was first collected by the Norwegian folklorists Peter Christian Aberdson and Jorgan Mo in the early S. and this is a reference that Leo Breebart, the l space annotator, says had him completely stumped for a while, which I was surprised by, like this is a pretty common fairy, towe, right. Yeah, I know it's we really GROA's graph, but this is also something preschett explores further and I think, much better, in his short story troll bridge, which was published after which is abroad in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two as part of an anthology honoring Jrr Tolkien. Did you read this one? I did. What did you think? Just generally, was it projector was Gamn Projett? Okay, cool, yeah, it was funny because it was Coden it's just an extension of the code and story as well. It was fun. Yeah. So in that story, the non engeneerian Barbarian Cohen goes to slay a troll who lives under a bridge, only to end up reminiscing with the troll about the way things used to be and giving him all his treasure instead. So, like writing weather wax com believes that what the land needs is people with good memories and adherents to tradition. The troll, for his part, wants to be killed by a famous hero so he'll be famed in song and story, but his wife and sung want to leave the bridge behind and move to a more port where they can start their own business and become more independent, right, like all the brothers, and of the wife. Yeah, yeah, and Coin's horse also questions him the entire time, asking what's the good of killing a troll? What have you got when you've killed a troll, to which can replies? A dead troll? That's the point, sort of poking fun at the idea of like why is coma doing this? Like it's just that tradition. And it's interesting that the the holes madness at the point the story starts with the idea it's so cold, everyone else is at home telling stories about heroes and there's the hero who's out doing the hero thing, but is pointless than it comes back to that at the end. Yeah, and both comin and the troll discover that they're only fighting because that's what their fathers did before them, with the troll later revealing that, like nut in unseen academicals, he only fought because a big troll with a whip told him to. Hmmm, so he didn't even want to do it originally, which is interesting because in the two towers, truebeard says that trolls, like ORCs, are only counterfeits made by the enemy in mockery of NTS, as auks were of elves. So, yeah, there's something hinting towards the exploration of books and unseen academicals in this much earlier, yeah, almost twenty years before novel, which is something I've noticed now reading all that, going back to the wizard series and and I'm about halfway through a full reread of the this world series. Pratchett recycles a lot of jerks and a lot of ideas. Okay, that that black like the inside of a cat. Thing that I said was my favorite part of which is abroad. That's a joke he uses in...

...the light. Fantastic. Oh No, and and actually the premise for which is abroad, is also in light fantastic. They come across a gingerbread cottage and they all talk about fairy tales. Yeah, half the ideas for all these other books are all just seens in the light. Fantastic. Like they sit around, someone mentions the tooth fairy and then they go, imagine our whole castle made of teeth, filled by tooth fairies, and then that's hog father. So interesting. Also interesting about troll bridge? This is the game of thing you're thinking about, because Gaman, who we're maybe going to do a bonus episode on next month, also published a story called troll bridge. In one thousand nine hundred and ninety three. We're in a London school boy promises a troll to come back to his bridge and let him eat his life when he's older. Right. So game and story was written for the revisionist fairytale collection snow, white blood red and was nominated for a world fantasy award in one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, but lost to Fred Chapel's the lodger. You ever heard of that no which I also thought was interesting, because although he was given a life achievement award for the color of magic and more in two thousand and ten, none of Prussian short stories have ever been nominated for the world fantasy award and of all his novels, only good omens, his collaboration with Gayman, has ever been nominated as well, which is absurd. Agreed. Now I think he's definitely been nominated and maybe one some of the British fantasy awards. So there's a divide here between Gamers, American, Pratchetts British, but like, come on, not even nominated the most popular fantasy series throughout the s and the S. now, don't worry about it. And also a well, as you say, game and got nominated for everything. Game in says the PRESCHET was a huge influence on him. So well, I've got a written here. Pyramids is the only novel by Cratchett to date. Two have won the British Science Fiction Award, and that is that's one I rather is not a good disc world. Yeah, meanwhile, almost anything game and rights gets nominated, although he only ever won the the the world fantasy award for the Sandman Comic Story I MIDSI and its dream, which is what we're going to talk about next month, though, is one huges for the Great Yard Book and American Gods, which I think are quite bad. HMM. Yeah, Damon says he wanted to call his troll bridge story trip trap, but he couldn't since Jane Wolf had already used that title, so we just stole Pratchett's instead. I guess looks called Pratchett up and be like hey, man, you're okay. If still makes things very confusing, though, right. Yeah, so it's ALD to say new games a hacker rips off Terry Pratchett all the time. You've heard it here first gets and you'll hear it again next month. Patrons special. But yes, Specter, which is abroad. We're not meant to sympathize with granny about this, right. Yeah, her reflection that the lack of tradition being the problem is sitting up parallels with Lilith, which granny will let a flip around and a pose. But, as Smith's points out, little decoration, that if you've got no respect you've got nothing echoes granny as earlier complaint that if you ain't got respect, you ain't got a thing in the tavern when no one knows about whiches. And this thing about respect is something she repeats in the later books as well. So this is Pratchett, I think, knowingly showing how granny and lily are two sides of the same coin and that it's not this might be the idea that there is no bad magic, which we kind of poopooed and since going back and reading sorcery and the like, fantastic is there is bad magic in discworld, right, but the idea that these ideas themselves aren't bad, but it's the way they're acting on it. I guess there's also granny saying of the Duke in Weird Sisters he didn't have no respect and the once people lose their respect it means trouble. So she sees respect is adherence to the nap the natural order of things, which she abides by, and when people don't abide by her world view, then she thinks that loss respect. She wants to keep him under the pricking of her thumb. INDEEDENS. Conversely, definitely, Antonio Lawless argues that it is mcgret's determination to imposs standards of proper behavior on the unruly, organic nature of Linka society that is dangerously close to that of Lily weatherwax and contains the same connotations of disrespect for human freedom. And indeed granny considers both nothing but daft godmother's which I think is a bit harsh on young mcgrat there. I don't think she's very lily asque. I mean that is the thing. That's the Lord of the rings thing, that if she's tempted by the one, she will become lily because she just wants to fix everything with the wand. But if we're saying that magic itself can't be bad, the one can't be bad, and maybe mcgrat could use it in good ways, a great so I don't know too much to say about Mrs Gogal to you. Yeah, I don't know. She she isn't a really well developed character. I think that's part of the problem. Yeah, she's a cool character, but not a very deep one. Yeah, that's it. But there's not a Nutson who's thesis on the use of formulas in terror practures discworld. We discussed him part one. He had the cool theory about the Lord of the Rings, stuff, Golum and everything. He points out that Mrs Goggal is also a double of earth, just like granny weatherwax, and he says that really represents order and aristocracy, while Mrs Goggle represents anarchy and the common people, summizing that the main purpose of Mrs Goggles Roll thematically is to represent the potential for abuse of power even in the forces that oppose the villain. And this is again second thome. It's been brought up on the podcast. I'm going to make a buiershock infinite reference, because in that game there's the black rebellion against the tyrants and they...

...go through a time rift and they come back and now the black people are in charge and they were evil genociders as well and everything's horrible and if you let the black rebellion when they'll just be evil and centrism right. So, and this is that game. has drawn a lot of criticism for this since its release and I think the same is maybe applicable to Pratchett. Even if he doesn't show Mrs Goggal being a tyrant, he's implying it'd be same but different, and that. Yeah, okay, yeah, I also take issue with her being the representative of anarchy and the common people, given that her goal is to restore the monarchy. Yeah, it's just thinking that. Yeah, so I'm not sure how much credence I put in that read, but this is Gogal also gives us another connection to Disney's princess and the frog in the figure of Baron so meti, or baron Saturday, the Voodoo Lord of the dead, who appears as the assumed a Zombie Servant of Mrs Goggle and turns out to be the king in hiding. Yeah, so the reader is given the false lead by nanny OGG of man Saturday, which is referencing Robinson crusoe's native friend, man Friday. We read Robinson crusoe. Have you want to explain man Friday? It's like I'm actually going to use cast way to explain my rent Friday, because it's the it's Wilson, isn't it? Well, Wilson, if he was a subject of black man. Yeah, actually, that's what I was going from yere so I've actually read it and I really should. I was going to before this but then I just didn't see I was obsessed with treasure planet as a kid. Treasure planet and Atlantis was my favorite Disney films, probably because there's a there's an absolute parent in treasure planet. Knows like this will help me work through. Draws an absolute parent in every Disney Room. There is a bit, it's a whole song, it's a yeah, you've got to see it and you'll get what I mean. That led me down reading Robinson crusoe a very young age actually, because I read treasure treasure island and then I read Robinson Cruso its off. It's one that keeps coming up for me, surprisingly in relation to science fiction, because it's sort of an apocalyptic last man novel without there being an apocalypse, but like all the post apocalyptic one man scavenging native narratives are based on this survival desert island sort of thing. M Yeah, so Robinson cruisers, the white guy gets trapped on the island and then he makes one of the Naves into I've said quote friends, but like he's a slave, right, he's a slave so not great that Nandy OGG's referring to the first black guy she sees as man Friday. But also this is a reference to Robinson cruiser. So did we get that through the Qumptom resonance as well? Yeah, so you mean, yeah, which is going to come into play, Lords and ladies, but this point I think it's sloppy. Some further Voodoo connections I thought were worth pointing out. The Mrs Goggles full name is asuly. I go goal, and in Foodoo Law, Matrice July is the idealized figure of womanhood and the spirit of love and beauty. Okay, but the usually is also an order of the angel like Iour, or Voodoo spirits, I'm not sure if I'm saying that properly, who are often associated with water and fluidity, as well as feminine or feminized bodies, such as those of some queer or trans men who they're said to sometimes possess. So we have this idea of jender bending associated with witchcraft and magic again. But is that just because queerness and femininity are demonized, right like if you're feminine, you must be taken over by one of these female demons, rather than just that's who you are. So that's lesson empowering association there, I think, but maybe could be reclaimed. I'm not sure. I didn't do too much look into Voodoo stuff and I'm not even sure if, like Voodoos the right word for it, whether I should be cooling at Voodoo, how much it all relates, because I think my broad understanding is there is a Haitian religion called Voodoo or Voodoo Vodu, but then broadly these offshoot religions or similar religions are referred to as Voodoo and I'm not sure how much of a colonialist term that is I see. So I'm not really that comfortable talking about Voodoo. But it also, like Lilith, surprisingly didn't come up that much and I didn't. I was just we've covered a lot here, so I didn't go in hard on the Voodoo stuff I went. I followed the yellow brick road instead. But going back to the idea that I don't know if this is the most insightful representation of voter. It's all a bit of a mishmash. This especially comes to the for Ms Google has her house that walks on chicken feet, which is a reference to the Slavic which Bobby Yaga not voter. So he's just sort of associating weird which things. I don't think he's really making a point about any of it. But another thing that New Orleans is associated with the Pretchett engages with more fully is the idea of the Carnival so which is brought ends with a festival which is a parody of the famous New Orleans mrdy graph festival. Yeah, surprisingly, mighty Gras, or fat Tuesday, is actually a Christian tradition. All right, so one it's the last day before lent, which many observing Christians fast on, Yep, in preparation for Easter. So Fat Tuesdays the last day we eat everything before the fast over east. GOTCHA and mighty grown carnival also bring us back to our boy buck in. He's your boy gone. Well, he's everyone's boy. Apparently he comes up...

...every he came up in my star trek research as well, like go away. So in his one thousand nine hundred and sixty five reassessment of the fifteen century French center, is Francois rebelous and his world back to explores the history of Carnival and cultural purity, as Buckton describes it, laughter was an essential aspect of ancient societies, with aristotle even arguing that laughter was the single essential feature that set humans apart from and above other animals. And early Christianity, however, he says, carnivals and just humor in general were widely outlawed or at least condemned, with the first century Christian preacher John Chrystostem even preaching against Mimes and declaring that laughter was not from God but from the devil night. So stick badding your poets. During this period, backton also says that rudiments of Gayety and laughter were primarily preserved and revived through eastern influences and local pagan rights, especially by the rights of fertility, which were later adopted into Christian ritual so that's how we get things like Easter. Yeah, yeah, with festival humor again becoming legalized at Medieval Church sanction festivals and again revived during the renaissance, primarily through the works of revelous and Shakespeare. Okay, I'm this is this book. It is actually a really interesting read. I just read the first hundred pages or so, which where he's going through this history of carnival and humor and literary human things before he actually gets into like the close analysis of reveliss work, because I'm not really familiar with that. But was one of those ones where I'm like I'm just going to read this section about the carnival stuff in the first chapter and then I just read a hundred pages of it. I'm like whoa get a load of this. So it's an interesting read. But the point of Carnival is that it doesn't so much invert power structures. This is the idea of the fall becoming the king and whatnot in weird sisters right carnivals the one day you were allowed to make fun of the king. He says, yeah, it doesn't invert. Doesn't make fools kings and kings falls. That flattens it so that falls like equal to kings during the carnival there is no power hierarchy. That's the idea anyway. Buckton also says the World Carnival last. There is no other life outside of it. During carnival time life is subject to is subject only to its laws, that is, the laws of its own freedom. It has a universal spirit. Is a special condition of the entire world of the world's revival and renewal in which all take part. He cautions, however, that the carnival is far distant from the negative and formal parity of modern times. Folk humor denies, he says, but it revives and renew at the same time their negation, which he associates with Postmon literature specifically, he says, he's completely alien to faulk culture. Right, it has no reviving property. He's writting this in the s when prostmonism is burgeoning and a detached postmon and irony is starting to take hold throughout literature and white a culture. But yeah, Buckton doesn't like this, this irony. He says it's just it's taking everything down. It doesn't revitalize, it doesn't propose anything in its spots. Yes, Buckton cautions that Carnival Saturus are not objective, judgmental observers. They laugh at themselves as well. So we'd bucked in like Pratchett. Well, he died in one thousand nine hundred and seventy five, when Pratchett Valedoli. Yeah, had a few sort story. So we'll never know. Probably not prote it's to postmodern for him. But I do think he sticks closer to Bacton's idea of carnival parody than most like. I don't think Pratchett's particularly ironic. He's Fascical, his satirical, but I don't think he's doing this postmone a any like, not in the same way as the others. Yeah, he's not bleak. Yeah, I'deed enter and Butler suggests that one of Buckton's assessments of Rebelius is work could equally be a pro applied to Pratchett, saying that Pratchett's images have a certain undestroyable nonofficial nature. There is no dogma, no Authoritaris, authoritarianism, no narrow minded seriousness that can exist with these images. These images are opposed to all that is finished and polished, to all pomposity, to every ready made solution in the sphere of thought and world outlook. So He's specifically saying Pratchett is rebellion, carnivalesque. I don't know, I'm not quite sold on there is no dogma or no authoritarianism or narrow mindedness, especially after you just looked it. The narrow mindedness, yeah, it's over on the AUTHORITARIISM, I do. I do think there's something to this where Prachett's prostmoonism is the metafictional aspect rather than the ironic aspect, I guess. But yeah, right. Rather than Easter, the celebrations in genuine more readily suggest the traditional celebration of all hello's Eve, or Halloween, which is another surprisingly Christian tradition, albeit with distinctive pagan and Celtic roosts like Easter. So it's the day of the dead, when which is are abroad in some cultures, and the data said to walk the earth like baron Saturday. So there's another carnival induced power in version going on there. I Boys Smith. He says the swamp, like the carnival, represents chaos, is miasmic. It resists attempts to structure it and though you might build Walt Disney world on top of it, some day the swamp will come back and swallow whatever structures have been super imposed on it. All right, but that's just entropy. Yeah Right, this is why people make fun of Literally Studies. Right, I like there is something going on here with the fluid in the swamps. But we said in the last podcast that the reason why Pratchett set this in New Orleans is because he drove there. Yeah, and then maybe he is invoking the swamp of things, but I don't think he's really did this. Swamp is justice,...

...it is land and water. He's both dead and alive. Okay, the Zombie thing, not the swamp thing so much. I think the swamps just to that. But speaking of terrible literary theory theories, I have one. Are you ready? No? Okay, sir. Something I noticed while researching, which is abroad, was that critics kept referring to it as a pastiche. So do you know what Pastiche is? Pastiche is when it is mimicking something, but it's not meant to be funny. It's just meant to be flat out mimicry. Yeah, I think, sir. I mean it's a confusing term that's kind of used as different meanings in different context and different people using different ways. The oed conflates pastiche with just parody. Says it's different words, parody and the incorporation of different styles, which, yes, if they're I think these critics are probably using that meaning of it, saying that this is a parody and it incorporates all these different fairy tales into one big narrative. I get that right. But pastiche also has a very particular meaning when it comes to postmodernism. Right in his one thousand nine hundred and eighty three Sa postmonism and the consumer society. Frederick Jamison, WHO's Vuguru off, likely using guru, is the too. Yeah, so he argues in this essay that, along with the collapsing of high and low culture, that Pastiche is one of the most significant features or practices of postmonism, and he defines pastiche as distinct from parody, which we discuss definitions of parody in the weird sister's episode. Parodies targeting something and playing it up to subvert it. Yeah, so, Jefferson says. Parody capitalizes on the uniqueness of styles and seizes upon the innocent cracidies and Eccentricities to produce an imitation that mocks the original while maintaining the intimation of what he calls a linguistic norm, in contrast to which the target of the parody can be mocked. As we said, it plays it up and says this is ridiculous and compares it to something else that it wants to ascertain it's place. Once this idea of a link quistic or cultural norm, like the objective not norm at the center of the modernest movement, once this collapses or becomes to stabilize, as parody becomes impossible because there is no norm to compare things to. So therefore, instead it is replaced by a Pastiche, which he defines as the intimation of a peculiar or unique style or the wearing of a stylistic mask. Unlike parody, he says, Pastiche is a neutral practice of such mimicry without parodies, ulterior motive, without the satirical impulse, without the laughter, it is blank parody, parody that has lost its sense of humor. I do think there is a criticism in some pastichious but it's sort of saying that things can't be otherwise. Right. Stories that start with mirrors have to end with a mirror maze because they can't not. So you're adhering to the style and you may be acknowledging that this style is ridiculous, but you're not parodying it and saying this is silly, we should do something else. You're going once a mirror is mentioned, I've got to end up here. Does that make sense? No, no, no, I think this is just one of those postpondesus things that you know, you can accept in theory, but I'm not sure I get it in practice. Pastiche. It's often used as a criticism, like if you say, Oh, this is just a pastiche of right as flat, it's not doing anything, then yeah, like, okay, like, I'm trying to think of a movie or something. Only example I can think of as an, I'm secure, death metal album. Okay, WHO's surprised? Well, it just because I use the word pastiche. We were talking about there's a Noum by the band called contrarian and they put out a new album and it was pretty good, like not a bad album, but I was talking about it with Eden, who edits heavy blog that I write for and he does some literary science fiction stuff as well, and we was saying this is os good, but it's just a pastiche of early nine s death metal, like it's cool, so just using it but not doing it. Story a really good representation of the sound, but it's just doesn't have its own identity. I get it. I get it. Wow, use to be metal to explain approach. I mean you can apply that to anything. I'm trying to think like action movies, right, big dum. Actually, ladies I was going to say John Wick, but John Wick does suvert and do new things. But where you want to see Arnold Schwartzenegger say I'll be back, because that's what a Schwatz Nigga doesn't if he doesn't do that, then it hasn't adhered to your expectations. But it can also be in a postmone sense of criticism that if you have a guy walking over only through a mirror maze, it's sort of commenting on will. Of course I'm in a mirror maze, right. But unlike parody that combats these expectations or these norms, it just highlights them, goes here is the mirror maze, but it doesn't say it doesn't, yeah, undercut it at all. Jafferson says postmone Pastiche is an imitation of dead forms, giving the original star wars as the example, which is a much better example than an obscure death met Holm. He says that styles itself is a pastiche of said a morning cereals. Right, it's taking all these old serialized adventures, of putting them together to create something new. But there would be no point in parading styles, because he obviously hasn't seen space bowls, because it's already an imitation of something else. I see how is a sort of tied in with some Larcos and things, and he says what Star Wars does instead, rather than commenting on these old properties, is it satisfies a deep, perhaps repressed, longing to experience these dead forms again, which I think sort of ties into this idea of like, what is the point of parodying fairy tales? Like where are the new ones? Disney...

...movies are pastiches of Fairy Tales. Yeah, but they're written in a way for like young kids in today's world to understand them, you know, right, satisfying the longing to experience the dead fairytale form rather than creating you stories. There are new stories added in, I think, even if it's just new perspectives. But I see your point. But the idea that the princess has to marry the prince, that's a pastiche HMM. Also, the Disney Renaissance is a throwback to Golden Age Disney. Yeah, gold aged dizzy was films adults had in their youth of Snow White and sleeping beauty that they grew up on. So and they made films about fairy tales for their children to then grow up on. So it's it's a nostalgic thing. Right. So pastiche, as we saw from the oed definition, is also the mixing of styles. So that's where the creativity can come from, is you're not innovating on these two styles, but then you're taking two things that haven't been put together and putting them together. Right, what happens when we mix which fantasy with fairy tales or something? Right? But yeah, I don't, as we sort of said before, I don't think this world has this detached, Ironic, objectivist view it's going for. No, it's verity, it's parody. Right. Yeah, in the guilty of literally of collection. John Clute, who is one of the original science fiction and cyclopediated is, claims that while Pretchett writes parody, it's almost always benign, open ended and without a point of Animus sors hard disagree on that one. there. Go on, go off. Oh, just clearly Pretchett has very clear targets that he is yeah, attacking, as we've discovered. So the dominance of pastichian person on literature also connects to what John Bath calls the literature of exhaustion when attempting to Turbine Postmon esthetics in his one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven essay of the same name. This is the same guy who wrote lost in the Fun House with the mirrors and ulysses and everything. Yeah, jump bars are different guys, guy and everything, rolling baths and John Bath, I'll rolling bar and roll bars. The Guy Job. Bath is literature of exhaustion. Do you know literature exists? You sent me did I started reading and I was like, oh no, this is I really like the literature of exhaustion. I think it's cool. It was funny and I was like, I have time for this funniness, though. Yeah, his books are worth reading and I need to read more of them. But in defining prosmon literature as the literature of exhaustion, bath specifies that he didn't mean physical, moral or intellectual decadence, only the used upness of certain forms or the felt exhaustion of certain possibilities. This is like what we're saying the exhaustion of the mirror thing. Yeah, that is a used up idea. He then writes an essay in one thousand nine hundred and eighty called the literature of replenishment, which he intends as a companion and corrective to the literature exhaustion, where he clarifies that what the literature of exhaustion was really about was the effective of exhaustion, not of language or literature, but of the esthetics of high modernism. So that's him specifically saying the mirror maze is a reflection on self. Has Been Done. We need to do something else with it. He then goes rights lost in the fun house. That has a twist on the bear. Amazing you. He says that the simple burden of the essay was that the forms and modes of art live in human history and are therefore subject to used upness, that artistic conventions are liable to be retired, subverted, transcended, transformed or even deployed against themselves to generate a new and lively work, not that it has all been done already and that there is nothing left for contemporary writers but to parody and travesty, are great predecessors in our exhausted medium. So he's kind of siding with Buckton a bit here, where he's saying you can't just be blank nihilism. You have to create through your parody. But you can know. Yeah, I am going somewhere with this, I promise, in the literature of exhaustion. Bath also expresses admiration for artists and writers who are genuine Virtuosi, the choicy Vanessa Virtuosi. H's Virtuosi, but that's a VIRTUOSI. There we go, I got it. Writers who are genuine virtuosy. I can't remember which one's the right one. Now vatuasty doing things that anyone can dream up and discuss but almost no one can do, expressing a specific admiration for boy he's who's the map, the map becoming a territory guy, which it turns out actually comes from Louis Carroll. Everything does. It's in. What's it called? Is it Sylvia Breuner? The other Lewis Carrol story? So not ells in Wonderland, but in one of these other books. They it as part of the ridiculous as better sort of thing. There are people the truly tracing out a map on the ground in front of them and then bore he's comes along later and writes that in a little short story and because he's the cool Argentinian modernist rider runs like who boy's. I do want Bo he's more than the wist Carol, but I just find that interesting because he's or he's the guy, and his main things were mirrors and Shakespeare, just like, just like Pratchett, we're finding out, but that's just postmonders. Really Mirrors and Shakespeare in the Odyssey. First Bond is a mirrors and Shakespeare. I can't first. But yes, progetts taking these and running them through a fantasy filter. Right, he's literalizing these metaphors, so we get a literal mirror maize that has sucked out lily soul rather than just being implicit, which is cool. Let's get to my crazy for theory now. All right, Patchett is specifically using parody to combat pastiche. What he is parading is not fairy tales. What he's parading is pastiche itself. Is Not the fairy tales he's making fun of. It is the idea of the story running down the mountain. Okay, I mean that that works because he's done that and previous...

...books as well. He's that he did it in weird sisters. Yes, okay, crazy theory confirmed. That is my final assessment, of which is abroad. Are you happy with that? Alice confirmed. So we kind of rushed through this section, probably because we're about three hours into our third round of podcasting, about which is abroad, but I wasn't quite as clear about the connections here as I would have liked to be. So to clarify, my reading is the lilies kingdom is stagnant because all she can do is prestige. She can only create ironic, inferior reflections of stories that have no substance or point of their own, and she can only show people what they've been doing wrong, not correct anything or suggesting what they could be doing right. She doesn't want umbrella to go to the carnival because that's where the power of parody lies, and when she does, Lilith is undone and she becomes trapped in a meaningless world of ironic self reflection that she can't see any way out of. Because she liked postmoder and pastiche has no real identity or positive identity. I have also since found a couple of articles being getting in Harbo Cons chapter on parody, Pastiche and satire, and Terry Pratchetts discworld novels from the two thousand and eighteen narrative worlds collection and a section from Dorothy Anderson's thesis. But witching writing which similar assert their revitalizing nature of projects parody in opposition to Pastiche. Neither do so in direct connection to which is abroad, however, so I might even write an article about that myself. I think. Clarification concluded. Nothing else to say. Hey, it. While we've got left is the MISC world section. I'm wondering if the misworld section deserves its own theme song. Okay, well, this world, Miss World, stuff that doesn't fit. Yeah, where do you want? Do you want me to do the Wuuuu that today we come through by speakers? I think it got compressed by the zoo, so I'll saying what it sounds like on your own. WHO. Yes, I miss quorld. I just wanted to bring up Hans Christianison because he's the only big fairytale guy that none of his fairy tales actually get parodied in this book. His fairy tales that we know, which are all ones that have been preserved through Disney, but are the Little Mermaid, Thumbelina and the emperor's new clothes. So, Franchett is anti hands. Don't know just when project was pick any went with Paro and the grim's I just thought it was an interesting omission. It's also the emission of beauty and the beast, even though we did and came up for other reasons. And that is a fairytale written by the French novels Gabrielle Suzanne Badr De Villeneu, which is published in one thousand, sevent hundred and forty. Yes, I just wanted to point out that those are the only two sort of big fairy tales that are getting overlooked here. We also have a bit of a Felix suggestion to mcgrant and especially granny weather. Axes broomsticks on the cover. Don't you agree? Absolutely, over, Chece is good for that. I think the esque was very suggestive in that it had the veins and the stars shooting out of it. Well, I mean that is just the shape. Look at it and where it's it, where it's coming from. Yeah, I'm not sort of just like which is on Broomsticks, like it's already felic so it's not like he's drawing a PENCI's drawing a thing that is a penis, but it looks a lot like a penis, like Grannie's, the way she's gripping it there. It's a lot that's a penis. The other thing that I wanted to mention just because it came up a few times in the literature of replenishment, say Bath sides, Gabriel Gussiere Marquez is nineteen sixty seven novel one hundred years of solitude, as the closely example of the perfect press one novel or just a literary masterpiece in general, and that book involves a man building a city out of mirrors. Of course it does. The literary critic Warrean Mote we talked about also brings it up when discussing perfect books in his two thousand and five lecture reflections on Mirrors, which is all about Mera scenes in literature. Do you know one hundred years of solitude? No, I know love the time of cholera, and that turned me off. Hold monks for for our I started it and I got about a third of the way through and was just like our mainstream literary fiction. It seemed fine. It just wasn't need more wizards, yes, or or spaceships. Isn't that normally everything? Well, wizards in space, right, Star Wars that hit. Well, was I'm like, come on, let's get to the mirror city, and it didn't come quick enough. So one day I'm going to that's normally the problem. All right. And the last thing in the miscorld section is the vegetarian stuff, which I am just dumping in the end here, but there is a thread. At some point all this is going to come together up because is which is, abroad, the most conist squad book canness being meat eating. You didn't notice that going through it. They went around, they meet a lots of places. I noticed that you have missicagle, who can do things with a chicken that would make it almost glad it had been killed. They also have nanny OGG, who won't eat anything without an apple in its mouth, and even the vegetarian mcgrat who, when she's talking about the pigs being the neighbors, the three little pigs, parody when she's going, well, they were pigs. You know what pork is before. It's pork. So there's a lot of meat stuff he identifies. Yeah, going on in this book, which the big vegetarian things going to come to a head in laws and lady. So we'll revisit it there. But just setting it up that a lot of talk about meat in this book. All...

...that leaves us is our favorite jokes. I feel like we've done favorite jokes around. Give a favorite joke are the ones we've mentioned already, were words have sex and foreign parts. And Yeah, that's right, which I also realize that implies that there is Buda and the discworld, but I'll let it go for a good pun. And there. The other thing I like, which I did ring up, incidentally, was I like that nanny Ogg self identifies as a disgusting old baggage. I just found out of music, but a a Bi yeah, I think we're finally done. Alice. Thank you for indulging me in a three part episode mostly about things, not a lords and lady. Yeah, do it. I'm excited about Lords and ladies. All right, I'll start it, I'll finish Camiller, and I'll start it tonight and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. They will be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then you can sign up to our patreon page and get all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any burnus episodes or specials that we end up doing, if you're after more of us. Alice host her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with the fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing out takes. Wait, we both have particular lines from the mad woman the addict, because there's a whole bunch of stuff about Milton and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, which is, you know, stuff fallas and I are very invested in and do a lot of research about, the particularly Ka. So, Alice, do you want to read yours? All Right, I love when students to use this one as well. I'm just like, Oh, let's come off. Has it angry in the comments. All right. So, for if eve is sins as well as Satan's double, then Satan is to eve what he is to sin, both a lover and a daddy the word daddy's come up more than none in a lot of scholarship. Yeah, it's strange. My major grant comes when they're talking about how Frankenstein subverts the female role in the creation of life by making a man without having to go through pregnancy and everything, and they describe his pregnancy and childbirth, they say, are obviously manifested by the existence of the paradoxically huge being who emerges from his worst workshop of filthy creation. Filthy because obscenely sexual, and the actually cite this filthy creation line about ten different times throughout the chapter. They really fixate on and about like this filthy creation is what makes like creation is filthy because it's feminine and because it childbirth is is filthy as well. But it's filthy because it's I was going to say hubristic, but it's defying the natural order. It's filthy, it's sinful. It's sinful. That's the word. Yeah, it's filthy because a sinful and also because the quote from Frankenstein that this comes from, the full quote, is the dissecting room in the slaughter house furnished many of my materials, saying that he collected burns from channel houses and disturbed with profane fingers the tremendous secrets of the human frame in my filthy workshop of creation. So it's filthy because it's covered with animal and dead body parts and things and for me, coming from the Animal Ethics vegetarianism side of things, it's filthy because he's mixing human and nonhuman parts to create a new creature. That's what's sinful about it, not so much that it doesn't involve a woman or that it's a man doing a woman's job. I think that reading is there and certainly Mary Shelley, who was pregnant her whole life and had all these male influences sort of using her to procreate. There's definitely something going on there. But I find a lot of feminist readings of frigates don't really like limit it to that. Y should be down the God there's nothing else going on here. It's all about childbirth and it's like childbirth is in there, but it's about fifth or six down on the list. Also, there's much better evidence to sort of discuss that and and I think this is representative of our whole beef with Gilbert and Gubbar is that they'll take something and just completely moved away from the context in a way that could like what their argument is could be helpful and could be useful, but they don't seem to know enough about the text or they're so invested in applying that reading that it completely corrupts, like what the text actually means and it takes forever to get us back to it. It's frustrated if she gets no respect. We said that Maggie, Maggie Smith, was a perfect fit for any weather acts, but she would be better played by Rodney Dangerfield. I was a jerk. I was going to see if worked DIDN'T GETTING CUT.

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