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4C – Witches Abroad - Part 3

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We wrap up our extended coverage of Witches Abroad with an examination
of mirrors in feminist literature and fairytale revisions, Lilith's origins, Granny's cultural chauvinism, Mrs Gogol, Carnival and the power of parody in combating postmodern pastiche.

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts 

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod 

This is a hay, i'm josh and i'm alice and i'mvery low energy, because this is the third episode on which is abroad, whichis meant to be one episode from then two episodes, but is now three, becausethat is the magical witch number right yeah we could do. We could go for sevenyeah, a bit burned out on fairy tales alice, although we're not really goingto be talking about fairy tales that much o this episode. That was mostlylast episode where we talked about all of that and disney and things bit aboutsnow white and this episode, but mostly we're looking at some of the, i guess,sociological and political themes that are going on in the book. Yeah else isnodding. Yeah we and the first thing we want to talk about is mirrorsoriginally one of the like the true things i liked about the book and theone thing i did not. One of the things i wanted to say was i really likelillis cool mirror room, but over maris in so forks in the middle. It'sfocusing the power and stuff, and i felt that was a really cool image andthen the more i looked into it. I realize that's sort of like already atrope. That's not really this original thing so much. I do think it's a coolversion of it, but in the seventeenth century wealthy women had rooms calleda cabinet, lumbus or paneled studies, so the walls are divided off into athese sections and in each of these sections is a mirror on every wall. Sothis is a proche appropriation rather than an invention and as multiplecritics have pointed out, lillis marroo also recalls the marquis. My queeze man,words are hard. The markis is harem in angela carder's bloody chamber that wetalked a lot about last episode yeah, so you haven't read that one have you ayou going to be? You haven't got around to it, yeah the room that he brings herin the blue. Big guy brings the lady into, and they have a lot of sex is alldone in a room surrounded by mirrors so that she is like watching herself asall this is happening so yeah, also in the third os book, ozma vos, f, onethousand nine hundred and seven the nasos tic medorus princess languir ofthe land of ev has many exchangeable, detachable heads and she's trying toget dorothy's for our own, because dorothy's, like the prettiest or whenshe's, trying to cut off her head and hop it as part of a collection whichties into the snow white stuff right who's, the first of the balls dorothyand a cut off a head. She also has a room of mirrors that she keeps alltheir spare heads in, which is something you see in the return to usfilm, where the character is combined with the evil sorceress mumby, who wetalked a bit about in the first part. So it's all coming together. Sort of mirrors also appear as great luxuriesin prose version of cinderella and bluebeard, and are also a frequentfeature of second way. Feminist criticism, which is largely based onpsycho on elses. Unfortunately, the fridge critic to being at melcon evenargues that femininely itself is a creation of the mirror noticing howmisogonus cultures often identify female evils with the evils of thelooking gas and points out that from the thirteenth century on eve, as inadam, an eve is often depicted branching a mirror connecting her withthe medieval conception of vanitas, which isn't just the name of the fourthbest and our natra record, but a reminder of death. That is meant topoint out the frivolity of vanity and physical goods, which was oftenrepresented by a woman holding a mirror. Now i've done a lot of talking therebut alice. This is this is one of your things right, we're talking about eveneven the marin veneer and the vanitas, and all that, so we know the story ofnarciss or narsissus. Well, why don't you just run people through it, so inovid, as is his looks at his reflection and a like, and he thinks oh gosh- thatyoung man looks pretty so he sits down, he keeps looking at it and he can't riphimself away from it and eventually he dies and turns into a daffodil which isgood for him. Oh, i didn't know the daffodil part yeah, so this is just theman who falls in love with his own reflections and ever himself and it'sthe idea of your self love going to the extreme. But it'sconnected to a because pride is always represented as putting the self aboveeverything else. And self love, therefore, is almost the ultimate formof pride. He became so self involved that he died next to her net to like inmilton's, paradise lost with eve when she is first wakes up, it becomesconscious she sort of wanders off and she finds a like that. She says herreflection in and she thinks oh, my gosh that looks really beautiful andthen a voice calls her away and it's adam's voice and she leaves, but shedoes it reluctantly, and what this is meant to represent is that within eve,there is already a form of pride, but it is kind of a healthy form of bride.While that is curious and interested, but isn't going to sit by the lake allday and engage in sort of pride for self love, she's, just kind of looks atit things. Oh that's pretty and then is called away by adam, but it doesforeshow everything to come and also complicate the idea of free will andwhether or not that humans were made...

...already with the capacity for fallwithin them and then, whether or not god basically said everything up socomplicates bilton story, but it also quatic ates the character of a eve,something more than just subject to adam. It represents her as having herown form of pride, but then that self interest is ultimately punished itself.Interest is all really panic, so it starts off as healthy and nice and thenlater satan comes along and uses that appeals to that calls her the empressand the greatest of all beds, creations and the most beautiful, and she thinksoh yeah. I am, though, and does whatever she wants, and so it thenbecomes corrupted essentially right. So it's not her own female vanity sort of itself needed tobe kept. A check is specifically a corruption. By an outside i mean satanis not necessarily male, but masculine yeah influence and an adams version ofthis is curiosity, so it both of them are kind of a form of curosity. Butadam keeps asking rafael for more information, more information untorafael, says no, and the point is they're, both healthy expressions ofpride and independence that then become corrupted by saint's influence yeah,and this is a thing like when i i think i read one of your things right when,where you brought up even the mirror- and i was like the seams are relevantand you were like no, no, no, no god like the mirror is a thing and the morei've read like yet or eve. Looking at a reflection in the water is a thing likeeveryone talks about it and so yeah the mirrors tied in with these conceptionsof corrupted femininity, which obviously ties into lilith yeah theproject character, not the jewish, mystical devil which will talk aboutlater. But it's also there's an emphasis of mirrors throughout feministliterary criticism as well, especially with grad to fairy tales, which islargely due to our favorite scholar, sandra and gilbert, and susan givar.What's your mouth that yeah and there influential one thousand ninehundred and seventy nine feminist trutes, the mad woman in the attic nowas elise as reaction, might tell you i'm being a bit facetious there becausegilbert and give baron not our favorite scholars, not even place yamaye atleast favorite scholars. I appreciate them in the work they've done, but ithink a lot of that work is wrong, yeah to give an run down of gilbert and garbar when they run in one thousand nine hundred and seventy nine. Their bigdeals in sort of second wave revisionist, feminus, literarycriticism. The madwoman in the attic is their big book, which yeah sort oftalks about how their argument is that historically, women and women writershave been portrayed as essentially crazy women righthe, the mad woman. Theattic is from jane. Are it's the wife who's locked up in the attic? Any sortof creativity or independence from women? Is must be contained orimprisoned by the patriarchy is their reading, and then they sort of say thatthe romantic writers and all these maintain century writers up to whenthey're running in the mid twentieth century. I've writing back against thisand they're sort of breaking out of these modes, and then they sort ofabout going that it's impossible that they can't break out of the moles iskind of like harold blooms. Anxiety of influences like these women are tryingto break out of the molds, but because of the strength of the patriarchy, theycan't and i find that annoying yeah there's a little bit self defeating.It's also it's interesting. I'm trying to. I try to use avoid using synonymsfor whack, but as the yeah, but given that their argument is that men tocreative women, they're crazy and i'm here can ye. But this is this- ispretty not guisa, it's black. As a on as a straight white sis woman, it wasbates your privilege, that's my privilege, yeah, there's lots ofridiculous psycho, analytic stuff mixed in as well, and it's not just us right.So, although they've become incredibly influential since the mad women in theattic, the book was originally met with some apprehension from a lot of it.Feminist scholars such as mary acervus and susan lanza, who were troubled bywhat they saw as a flattening out of literary ambiguity and a zealous desireto impose a single framework and false coherence onto a many voiced and manysided history of women's reign yeah. So lansa even argues that gilbert and gibaoverlooked many of the solitis of the text. They were analyzing by usingliterature as a mirror for their own sense of self yeah. That's good,because a common critique of gilbert and your bar, it's the one that yousaid, is that they don't sufficiently take into account the geographical andhistorical context of the stories they analyze attributing too much value tothe author of the text, yeah rather over, emphasizing marishes, auto biafrarepresentation, rather than the broader themes that she's engaging with andlike in a messed up way, because mary shelley was obviously engaging withideas from milton in her own way. So it's instead they saying that she'sbeing imprisoned by molton ideas, but actually she's engaging with them. Inthe same way, they call milton an angry sexist massagetes. It's like yeah byour standards, of course, but by his standards, like his representation ofeve, is incredibly forward thinking so again, frustrating yeah. I don't havethe exact ports in front of me, but like they go both ways with shelley,they say she's imprisoned and she can't break out of it, and that fragant isthe most imprison in this metonic...

...patriarchy, because it is o rewritingor re interpretation of paradise lost and well. I don't agree with that. Ifollow their argument right. This lady can only express herself through thispatriarchal r text, but then they say somewhere else that by doing this, thisis the way to embrace independence by taking these mets and re interpretingso, along with being just kind of all over the place and have this reallycontext less stuff in it. The actual argument is hard to follow when theyseem to contradict themselves a lot yeah jacobus, who was a fellow of thebritish academy and commander of the bread empire so big deal in terms ofliterary scholarship stuff. Although she acknowledges the mad woman in theattic, as among the most ambitious and in its own way, artful works offeminist literary criticism to appear in america in recent years, criticizesgilberte giba for wilfully misreading the text they study and the interest ofcreating their own mythology around women writers, so that what is lost intheir analysis is precisely the female text itself. Goban good bye themselves,imposing a form of tight lacing which immortalizes the play of meaning andthe text whose hidden plots they uncover often allying themselves withthe romantic myth. Making their analysis is supposedly positionedagainst. She also says gilbert and goodby themselves become spinners oftales or spises like those whose stories they tell, which brings us backto this idea of rumple still skin the queen spinning oh yeah, we talked aboutlast episode, wrote yeah because you brought up the what's her name now.Penelope in the odes is spinning on a haloum the entire time, while she waitsfor adytis to come back. So i did do a little bit of research into this and icouldn't find anything specifically linking spinning to the idea ofmasturbation, which is what we were playing around with last time, mostlybecause of ford's ridiculous psychoanalysis stuff. What i foundthere was that it was usually spinning is just a domesticated women's role,and so it was meant to represent the natural domesticated order and then, ifthe spinning stopped, then the domestications come undone. So what?While she keeps spinning, she maintains the household. Yes, he does rather than a sexual signifier. Butspinster is the word that jacobus us is there saying their spinsters of tales,because i also wondered, if yeah, connecting it to spinners of tales inodyssey and things. The spinster is as define in the oad is a woman or rarelya man who spins, especially one who practices spinning as a regularoccupation, but it says it's also appended to names of women originallyin order to denote their occupation, but subsequently from the seventeenthcentury, became the proper legal designation of one still unmarried. Soit's weird that this term spinning spinster, is also a preservation of thedomestic order, but also at some point. The ideal is that it's meant to giveway to some kind of male influence if you're a penso whole life, you neverget married, so there's no domestication to preserve yeah, and ithink i think, while it's apt that they've used it to describe a gibinkava. I also then just becomes like again part of the problem governing abar. Trying to develop a feminist could take. They used like a pretty antifeminist term to describe what they've done is like a yeah. It's alsointeresting because in disorther prostitutes are seamstresses. I still reckon that the sexualconnotations that they are in some cases. Well, that's what it is in thedisk word right. Spinners are the sex workers get for ten yeah wet? That's noreal firm conclusion, but there is something going on here with femalesexuality and spinning, even if it's not a direct metaphor for masturbation,as the psycho analyst would have you believe so back to gilet and gubar,because now we actually have to talk about what they say, because despiteall this criticism, yes, the mad woman, the addick has been incrediblyinfluential and they begin the mad women in the attic, with an analysis ofthe queen's looking glass as a metaphor for literary paternity, which avoy'sthe fairy tale. Studies go describes as a particularly penetrating analysis,which i thought was a pretty amusive choice of words. In the same way thatcarol j adams has a bone thousand nine hundred and ninety the sexual politicsof me, a feminist vegetarian, literary or critical theory now describes herwork in her own profile as seminal. So i want some fanes going on there. Imean this is just the patriarchy right words mean dick, it's the language they've given us, andit means it's all about penis everything is a penis, but to playalong with gilbert and hubains and mirrors. So they argue that the grimslittle snow white follows the mythological lila story which will getto by dramatizing the essential but quivilla tions ip between pervasivecultural depictions of female characters as either angel women ormonster women, later of whom they describe as an undeniable witch who isdoomed to the inward search that psycho analysts censoriously define asnarcissism. This is back to the the looking in the water thing right. Womenare either pure angels or they are narciss dick devils. That's your twooptions under patriarchy and you go a...

...pickle yeah. So as vanessa jusanexplains in her tent eleven book, critical and creative perspectives onfairy tales, gilbert and gaba view the mirror as a symbol of patriarchy and assuch, it cannot simply be destroyed. The traditional ending of sarlatpromises a continuation of the status cort with regard to generals, itstichel, a damsel having merely exchanged one glass coffin for another.So yes, he's this chapter is an analysis of snow white and they go andsay it's all about putting women against each other right queen as happyas long as she is the fairest of them all and then, when snow white comes.This is the threat of a younger, more virile replacement, so she tries tooffer and then the resolution of the story is the restoration of thepatriarchal order by snow white kicking out the queen and marrying the princeyeah. Okay, all right, i see yeah to tie this into, which is a broad right.You've got nanny and little being pitied against each other. There, theangel woman and the devil woman except the inversion. There is, of course,frenny's in system that chees, the devil woman being forced to be theangel woman and lilat is the devil woman who thinks she's the angel one,but then live there's also the one who is trying to know she doesn't want toinstall the patrae in fact she's a matriarchal ruler, but she is defeatedby the lineage of the younger yeah amberell being restored. So there'ssomething of that model being preserved there, that she is a female threat.Yeah. Now i'm argin against myself. I guess what i was saying was that she'sthe one imposing these fairy tale stories- or this goes back to i don'tknow what lilis motivation is for imposing fairy tales like she wants tocontrol which she's perpetuating these myths rather than in doing them orwe're going to get to that, and we talk about pastate parody. Aren't we we are,but it still doesn't make sense why lilith is doing it. I guess it's justthe cycle of abuse. He people hurt people and all that she's beenconstrained by these myths and these very tales her whole life. So she'sgoing to force someone over on else and oh that becomes her way of gettingpower is and it she uses the system against other people, which is good. Igo bad argument, isn't it yeah, so i guess she's using one system againstother people, as you said, rather than to help herself and other women yeahexactly yeah, so yeah, the last section of which is a broad, is sort of arevision of snow white as much as cinderella. It's interesting that neogamman so purchase friend and collaborator who's going to keep comingup as we discuss these books. He also is thousand nine hundred and ninetyfour short story called snow, glass and apples, which is a revision of sparewhite in which a benevolent queen sees herself reflected in her daughter'seyes, as she is roasted alive by a vaper, no white, a sort of a directflip there with making the queen the good one and snow white, the bad onesort of like cratchit does with many a little. But there's less of thatambiguity there. It's just snow white is an evil vampire and the queen isgood and she's become a victim of this patriarchal cycle, also reflected withgot mirrors again because their dope game. That's right, that's the idea ofthe mirror. So it's interesting, even while pratchett inversion and revisionis more complex and more ambiguous. It still maintains this. Tocodonon has tobe a good one and a bad one. They can't be like they're, not ambiguous figuresthemselves, lily and grannie. Even they are ambiguous figures, but the storynot just the stories in the world, but pratchett story, proces structuralthing makes one be a good versus bad. It comes down to a fight between goodand evil, there's, no, avoiding that narrative imperative. So continuing onthat theme of mirrors, the literary critic warren met argues that readingitself can be conceived of as a kind of mirror gazing. That, among the manythings we see in literature, is ourselves writ large and that in doingso we construct a vision of ourselves. We may sometimes recognize immediatelyand sometimes not at all, i'm so glad you've put that note in afterwards.Well, yes, so i said this is the kind of scholarship i find largelymeaningless and unhelpful right. How are we meant to apply this people seethemselves in books, books and nowers yeah, then what i do think it'stouching on the themes of which is a broad in that people constructthemselves through stories. So you read stories and then you go and you want toand it influences the way you behave and influence is the way we thinkthat's why vision of stories is so important, like we've both thought, thepenelope ad etcetera and especially when disworship cent has described inretama, which i think comes out just before we had sisters, they come outthe same one thousand nine hundred and eighty one so they're, probably beingwritten at the same time. Project starts off that book by proclaiming thedisk wot, both a world and a mirror of worlds. So preched had mirrors on themind while he was writing this and it reflects the broader idea now see whati did the that we are meant to better understand our world through projetsdisordered discord, reflection of it. So there is something in at least interms of disk world, a d and the sort of satirical personal fantasy that weare sing a weird distorted reflection of our world, but then that caninfluence and and construct identity in the real world, if you're taking thoseand then applying the mouseways guess yeah d, and then we have the turtlesall the way down. So, but i did that...

...situation, you know two thousand and nine articlebook as mere mirrors book. That's that thing and i cut it out of the lastepisode. But what do we call that when something goes one way, and then itgoes back to the other fas mus that thing that rhetoric could advice, i do potry, it's also. It's a mirror right. It's areflection, yeah, a fancy word for reflection, because it's book as meromirrors book it's like they're, looking in a mirror, it's pretty good! That'swhat satan does and he's big s e li que like he suddenly looks himself in theface and then that's when we get all those examples of cases yeah and thenhe goes and corrupts eve's innocence. I say evil be there, my good, which is aninversion of reality anyway, go on sorry to make a heaven of hell orwhatever it was what's the line. I have a tale hell of heaven. There we gobecause hell is a distorted reflection of heaven and i love it. I get it so asshadows notes, even in novels, such as, which is abroad which do not take placein overtly patriarchal settings. Mero specifically represent women's powersand fantasies right there, social with women, not men, i'm sure there'sexceptions to that. But generally, i think that's pretty true, although shenotes that there is a significant difference between early farr tale, reimaginings, in which women literally struggle to survive against maleperpetrated violence in the world run by and four men and which is abroad inwhich all the major characters are female and they all will varyingdegrees of power for various reasons of their own. This is back to thatobservation from the the australia writer pointed out that yeah, it'sreally kind of strange that the protagonists imprecise books are oftenwomen. It's not something you see outside of like lady night, fantasy andstuff so yeah. She points out that all of the political power plays in thenovel are entirely female and that all of the men in the novel are puppetswith the king of genuine literally rendered the zombi. Who was only givenlife and power by mss goggle, that's fair yeah. Did you have any thoughtsabout that other tin that they made they make plans of all the men theymeet that spending their way? Do they like the guys, the gambling guys theybrought the gambling scene? I think that's pretty representative of thatidea. The men think that they've got the women under their power and thewomen. Don't let them there's not even a question. Really. Hmm i'm notentirely sold on the idea of the king like being a puppet, because the ideais to restore the king to power. Is he a puppet of miss goggle or is he kindof meant to be a gulam zombi thing and do they have a will of their own yeah?I think i mean he has a bill of his own because she's preserving him not as apolitical play, but because he's her lover, yeah sweet, something duty, kindof way. It's cute, so yeah, that's some pretty like insightful stuff fromshenac, but then we also get lost in the psycho analytic stuff, where sheargues. That project represents the mirror as a story itself, although, asshe notes, the reader is constantly told to look into the mirror right,that's at the start of the book look into the mirror so that reading thestory and looking into a mira become the same thing again. What are we meantto do with this? Guess is just the idea that a reflects life, real life andreal life reflects it, and all that the chance therefore argues that the writerof which is abroad an must, be lilith, okay, so the book and the mirror arenot only conflata but become expressive of lewis plans and fantasies. How do weapply to sell us? I don't know that we can, i think, that's just how trying tobe real, smart, yeah and also they all throw. The book is not willeth, becauseeverything is told from that, which is perspective where we can't see i'm notbuying that. Nevertheless, as chaos, notes mirrorsare also the medium of granny. Weatherwax is victory, noticing thatshe defeats love not by rejecting mirrors out right, but by acknowledgingtheir powers and then using them against lilith and then later acceptingthe reflection as an aspect of her n personality. You know, i don't knowabout that, because all point of the bit in the mirror is that she says noneof the reflections of me i and me, so i'm not sure if she does exceptreflections as part of her personality so much as he just manipulates them toturn. Well is power back on herself? Does some hetley judo there henologyjudo yea? The book ends with yeah the scene of the merimee, which is a bigchurch in hers, mon fiction right, mostly because it's a it's a revisionof the nighttown scene in james dress's, ulysses and mad rest, some so bloodylong! Isn't it have you read ulysses? No, i haven't got a ran to it. I didmean to read this chapter for this, but i i just didn't get around to itbecause there's a chapter because you all sees it's a rewriting of theodyssey and modernest running at the other c yeah and this chapter is calledsercy. So it's the witch chapter and the main, the protagonist, stephen yeah.He wanders around the city in ians up in a very maze and then pris mon asbecome obsessed with the odyssey and rewriting the is right. It's the oldeststory that perpetuates through time, but they also become obsessed withrewriting this fun house. Merise right, you have lost in the fun house yeah you shouldmention which literally the guy goes into the mirror and he gets trapped inthere and loses himself, which is something we had in the as movie. Theother year, every bat man story with the joker ans in a fun house thing,even i think it's the second or thirdjohn wick movie- ends with amirror fight. So this is. This is a...

...trip that keeps coming out there, themeer thing- and it kind of annoys me because it seems very played out atthis point every time i see a merry maze. I'm like okay, do you like thatin which is abroad? It was one of your favorite bits. Well, i like the mirrorroom, okay, but she was like sitting in and focusing her power that yeah assoon as someone enters a mirror mirror maze, i'm just like fuck. How long arethey going to stumble around until someone smashes through the mirror andpunches him in the face yeah, it's funny how these very meaningful tropesnow are just so overdone that we roll our eyes and it's like okay. Well, weeither need new trips or we need new cakes on the church, but then yeah, i'mthinking like prasat, would have used it. Perhaps thinking all this is useful.This would be interesting. This would be a fun play on the thing, but but butmuch like shrik by the time we get to it. Now it's been so done. I mean i dothink he does a good take on it like it's, not that they end up in a mariaziis it does have something to do with lillith being captured in the mirrorsand he fructu identity like there is something more going on there than justlike, oh who's, the real me, but it's almost that running the story runningdown the mountain side to its logical conclusion like we had mirrors, so thishas to end in a merias there's no other possible ending for this story. Youknow personal this fiction, setting, i think, that's everything about maris.Do you have anything else about merris? I think we've got of the mares for therest of this podcast. I want a zoomin and do some close analysis of the majorplayers, the major which is in this book being lilith, grady, weatherwaxand miss cobo. Who will talk a little bit about the er stake holders in this?Although granny's not really a stake, holder, she's more of a coming and pickeverything over and tell very want to do, it is a yeah, but we'll start withlilith. So it's prech it and simpson explain in the fur lor of dis woud inethlend legend lilith is the name of a terrible female demon known as a prideas well as cruelty. It is said that she was adam's first wife, but refused tosubmit to his authority in sled from eden into the desert, where sheconsulted with demons, became a demon herself ever since she has exploitedher beauty by seducing sleeping men in their dreams and satisfied her crueltyby killing women in childbirth and strangling young babies. She feeds ontheir blood and sucks the marrow from their bow right. So we're going to bitof this cannibal witch i mager coming in there as well this fun stuff. I meani littles a pretty well known figure, i would say, maybe not in general popularculture, but certainly in fantasy, would understand the connotations ofwill as soon as that name comes up also like. If we're accepting that story,which will pick a part in a merman right, if she is the first wife of aim,is she the first witch thing i mean if you're pick, if you're going by thechristian story line of humanity yeah, they pick that up, you probably haven'tseen it. Some people may have seen it, but the latest representation of sapria,which started off really good and then got really bad lilies in it. Okay, yeahand they talk about her being the first witch and in the end the witches allchanged their coven instead of worshiping, saying they worship wellerthan it becomes this whole like we was at the first, which thing and she'squite interesting, because it shows that she actually was kind of in lovewith adam is the story line that they take, but that she couldn't like shestill couldn't subject herself to him. Then she goes over the devil i mistraer,and then she has her own story line. So like it's as bad as sabrina has gotten.There are some really good and interesting takes on these quitetraditional ideas. No little stories line sounds really cool. Mattie watchedthe whole thing i sort of you know saw in passing and it always looked prettybad and even yeah by the end made was like it's just gotten so bad, i don'teven know if she finished it. I struggled, but that is last year yeah afor science in this is, i was almost going to say this is sort of thenarrative imperative thing like you can't have a story about which is andhow, without having a lot of character and a satan character, these days issort of expected, although surprisingly lile isn't really talked about in allthe major your secondary sortes i've been using to explore real worldwitchcraft like she just doesn't come up in any of hutton or purcas es stuffreally at all, which might be because she's not really a thing. So the ideaof leath comes from early versions of the hebrew bible where it is said ofgod's judgment of jerusalem in the book of isaar. That thorns will come up inits fortified palaces, nettles and brambles. In its fortified cities itwill be a haunt for jackals and a bird for ostriches. Indeed, lilleth willsettle there and find herself a place of rest, so lith has literally beentranslated from the hebrew as night demon. However, modern scholarshipsposition is that this is a mistranslation. Orow lilith is not anight demon and it doesn't make sense for it to be a night demon, since allthe other creatures in the passage are wild animals right. It's like therewere ostriges and then and then a she witch and then also it's like lilesshould be logically another animal and it seems more likely that lilith, thenight demon represents some kind of night bird or screech out as it'stranslated in the king jams version there so potentially a mistranslationthere, but that's the only reference to lilith in the bible unless you foundsomething else. Well, i'm thinking, i don't think it's that she's, not athing. I think she's a hebrew thing, isn't it and you've more looking atlike the christian idea of witchcraft or something but also she's in spencer,she's in mountain she's, in dante. So,...

...just like a thing, but not a thing,lili is a thing i meant. Lilith is not an actual like she's a similar right.She is she's, become a thing, but there is no original lilith in the hebrewstory like yeah the king, james is the later christian translation, but i'msaying the king james, there is the restoration of the original translationof screechowls genesis is a jewish story as much as a christian star. Imean it's more jewish story than a christian story, because christianitydoesn't exist until christ comes along in the story and in the real world yea.So it was originally a screech out in jewish hebrew. Myth gets, walked andtranslated and builds up. This idea of lith and then gets re translated backto screech all in the king, james bible, but then the myth of lil of continueson, but it's not actually referring to an original figure in the bible. It'sthis mismatch of mistranslations right. Is it in other? Well, it is it's inother hebrew stories. Isn't it yeah? It's just not in the bible or what weunderstand is the bible. It's in the stuff that is left out of the bibe, sothe most extensive and impressive investigation of th lillith's originsthat i found is a two thousand and eight thesis by judith and blair calledd demonizing, the old testament, which was apparently published by anindependent german press in two thousand and nine. But i could only getaccess to the thesis. So i'm going off that as blair observes luther startedout more as a type of demon, rather than a specific one and later developedduring the middle ages of the fourteenth and seventeenth centuries,she's dating it to there by jewish mysticism into the singular mos pheredemon of judaism. So she traces lives, origins to the sumeria lillo demons,who were the female counterparts to the male lill. So, yes, it's suck obusesand incubuses and then yeah. She sang not until the fourteenth century. Soalmost a millenium and a half after christianity and everything thatthere's myth of vud, lillith or lillith herself gets solidified. She says thata demnat named la lake also appears in the story of gilgamesh and the haloo,which was inscribed in a stone tablet. From around two thousand bca wearingguild gramashes a dragon who is harassing the goddess in ana by hangingout in a tree in which laake has also built a house, and then, when gilgameshslays the dragon, it says the terror stricken demoness tears down in ourhouse and escapes into the desert. This idea will come back in the midst of thethere's, also references to a demones named obsol, who has many names andmoves about at night, visiting women in child birth and strangling new bondbabies in the apocryphal testament of solomon, which states to the first fourcenturies of the common are so lilli as an archetype of the female demons whoattacks children and flees into the della. This is around, but it's notidentified and solidified into lilith herself until much later on. Okay, solillis back story, as the first wife of adam actually comes from an anonymouseighth century. Satire called the alphabet of bensie, which is about ababy who was born with the ability to talk and who becomes something of aprophet. Have you have you read this? He said ever read. I knew all that thispeter and i've talked about it at length right. Why went and read andwhen asked by king nebeker, the second to heal his six son breden writes anamulet inscribed to the angels of medicine telling him do you want toread this one? God also created a woman from the earth, as he had created outof himself and told her a little of adam and lotis immediately began tofight. She said i will not lie below and he said i will not lie beneath you,but only i'll top, for you are fit only to be in the bottom position. Well, iam to be the superior one. Lelas responded. We are equal to each otherin as much as we're both created from the earth, but they would not listen toone another when literari should pronounce the ineffable name and flewaway into the air said the holy one to adam. If she agrees to come back fine,if not, she must permit, by hundred of for children, to die every day theangels left guard and pursued lilith, whom they overtook in the midst of thesea and the mighty waters where in the egyptians were destined to drown, theytold her god's word, but that she did not wish to return. She said i createdonly to cause sickness to infants at the infant is mail. I have dominionover him for eight days after his birth and a female for twenty days, but she'swartering by the name of the living in eternal guard. Whenever i see you oryour names and your forms in an amulet, i will have no power over that infant.What we would think of as the common story of lilith. This is the fullyformed version of it. I don't think then the anonymous author been seriescoming up with this. This is a representation of something that's beena reportings yeah, but this is the most complete tale of lilith as the originalwife of adam. It's interesting. Also that her whole thing is. I don't wantto lie underneath you and will credit a for equal pisar, both created out ofthe earth like her original argument, is pretty sound. It's not even that shethinks she's better than adam she's. Just saying that we should have anequal position. She is the original feminist yea suck on that mary walstoncraft suck on that. Well, i think that one had a wholebible, a whole diary dedicated to her supping on it. I did not know that itold you this godwin kept. It kept a diary of when they thought god as fuck,dory yeah, sir back to ben hero. After...

...that, just there's no way to transitionhad a goat's, fucked or back into thirteen sit nor its, not centralhebrew mythology. All right, i don't know how we got there. I justcan't get back, but the editors of the version of thealphabet, sarah, that i'm using claim, but maybe one of the earliest literaryparodies and hebrew literature, and it also spends a lot of time at the end,discussing the nature of the angel of death, which i thought was interesting.Given that we're doing preche now, it's satires based around death or withdeath as a prominent character, just an interesting connection, so just just toelaborate on the ben hero story a bit because i think it's interesting andalso gross ben sira is conceived because it's a virgin birth. But theway this is explained penser is conceived when his father goes to above house and participates in what is essentially a circle jerk and his quote:drop was preserved until his own daughter came back to the bath houseand it entered her vagina yeah yeah. Seven months later she gave birth to ababy boy. He was born with teeth and with fully developed powers of speechan amanthis too few. Well, that's seven at seven, but it's also one ofthe things that premature children in hero mysticism are apparently likethey're meant to be wholly or more divine because they more quicklydeveloped. So it's not just random that they're picked. Seven seven is to showthat he is okay, more superior birth, there's, also a couple of otherprophets who, like ladies, go to bath houses and sit on piles of sperm, andthen they give birth and to things. But the reason why bensie is soknowledgeable is because it's specifically her father's spoon, yeah,that's weird. It's very strange and the thirteenth century, rabbi perez of kobe,apparently used the account of been serious conception to argue thepermissibility of artificially insemination, a woman with her fatherspurt. Now so on the first part of benser. He has taught his alphabet by ateacher and response, since he can already speak with a nugget of wisdombeginning with each lever, and these nuggets are incredibly sexist h. So hetaught his teacher, who he says, doesn't have a worry in the world,except for the fact that his wife is ugly. Bentura then gives advice such asby a beautiful woman's countenance many have been destroyed and numerous areall her slain ones. So all right but be thankful. You have an ugly wife,because beautiful women are dangerous. He also says cherished by every person.Are male children, but woe be the father of females to which the teacherresponds, but i have seven daughters again, seven and they been yeah andthey spin and do all the housework for me. So the domestic stuff- and he says,but if there were no females, where would all the males come from and bendher a response? Poor man, you comfort yourself with worthless consolation for,as the sage is stated happy as the man whose children are male and worried tothe father of the female and when a female comes forth from the belly ofher mother into the air of this world, the heavens the earth, the stars andthe constellations everything that has been created in the world morn thatthis has happened, ikes yeah god. I felt bad about being born. Hmm. He alsosays that having a daughter is the worst because come her marriage, youwill worry the most that she will not have sons and when she grows old, youwill fear that she will engage in witchcraft. That is my father's mainconsent that you weren't prayer prorate and then become a witch and iver comeof wich yeah such just to say that all of the youwere saying little, the original feminist, but are not in a particularlyfeminist text there. Oh no and the associations with women who don't marryour witches, the spinsters. We go strange connection there. Now i'vewritten, we have a been serious surprise. I'm very excited about thisone yeah. So we said the the background of leath comes from ten to a givingadvice to king nabakanta. So another thing he advises, king never can azaraelise. I can get you to read this section for us. Please sending this toyou right now. You have not seen it before. Some days later, the king saidto benser. I have a daughter who expels a thousand five every hour cure. This is my dad ben sir lied send her tome in the morning with her attendance and i will heal her the next morningshe came with her attendance. Yes, she did when benser saw her. He began toact as though he were very angry. Why are you very angry? He asked him. Yourfather agreed that i must expel one thousand forts and he's presentstomorrow in the following day. I'm afraid he may put me to death. He gaveme an extension of three days, but i still did not know what to do. Don'tworry. She said i will go in your place and expel one thousand farts in frontof him for both of us. If that is the case, replied ventures stay here withme for three days and do not break wind so that the farts will be ready on thethird day. Every time i fight was about to come, the king's daughter stood upon one foot and stretched her eyes wide, as ben sira told the two and shecontained herself and closed her mouth slowly until the breaking of windstopped completely. After three days no fats came out of a from o behind. Onthat day, ben syra took her to her father, saying, go and expel onethousand forts for your father. She stood before the king, but she wasunable to break wind. Even once i, the...

...king stood up and kissed bencher thefuck, that's the kind of thing where the talkor the ol that now this is fain up. I am not going to get you to read thedick section all right. He then questioned ben sira. Why were foutscreated all right? If not for breaking wind, a person would have direr anddefecate in his clothes, but when a person feels that he is about to fight,he goes and attends to his needs that he will not be embarrassed and sit infilthy clothes shit. So it's just notice that you're going to take a shitsoon. Well, it's! If you don't fight, you don't shoot. If you don't shut, youdie that is at his favorite saying so there we go, that is the origin oflilith and the origin of forts. Thank you for that gift. I thought you mightlike that. One all right, there's also a book by thisgeorge mcdonald guy, is the goblin princess one that keeps coming up. So iam going to read it before the wars, an ladies episode, but yes it, but by himgeorge mcdonald call hillah r one thousand eight hundred and ninety five,where in the protagonist is led through a mirror and into another world.Apparently this was a big influence on seas. Lois's chronicles of nanabeg tosee what the theology is like in that book, then yeah. Well, i didn't read itjust because i didn't i don't have time. I had a look so back to protect lilathere in two thousand and nineteen article, the mirror, crackedrepresentation of characters in terror projects which is abroad, goanasobserves how lily weatherwax uses names in order to reinvent herself that,although she does not change shape physically, she does so by creating newidentities. Yet must i also notes that chanoke name does not allow lily tobecome a completely new person. The one she was and partially still is liesbeneath her facade, and she argues that lily's confusion about her own identityis made apparent through the constant shifts between her names and thenarrative as well, which mirrors the insociability of her identity. Whileclaiming that this and sociability is further reflected in the heroineumberella, whose name also shifts between embers and alla y, becausegrady weatherwax is ismen, grandy and gretty weather works and the wet sifera,so there's nothing here his argument, i don't think so. I threw it in therebecause i thought it was interesting because the idea of reinventingyourself in the power of names that sort of bring those two ideas together,but i just don't think it's there yeah, because just people have differentnames, yeah right, nanny, ogus, githa and of disgusting old baggage. In fact,the only character who has a singular name is mcgrath, the one who doesn'tknow who she is so by you. She an i you mean it all tofuya by recognizing thatyeah. I can thought that was interesting. That m grad is just mygrand she does and she doesn't perform this like granny weather, lax grandhe's, not a granny. It's a similar e h t takes on that thing, whereas magre is,i am mcgrath tever i am. It is macra and she's the one who is also reallyconsciously developing herself like working on herself or is the others arejust like. I am who i want to be yeah, so i thought it was pretty interestingpoints for a grat there for actually being self assured and not needing toput on the facade. She, probably the aravian club, ten places to raincock nomore gotta, be a huffle puff you're right. I was just thinking that i likema, but she's food yeah have a buff grunnio wither room absolutely on wouldbe griffin doll, wouldn't she yeah yeah yeah that checks out. Nevertheless, asferal medicine notes, when louis by the wax changes people shape, she does soin the ammonous assumption that this will enable her to change who they are.She confuses an outward appearance with reality and when as to find herself,she can only look in mirrors and, as i compares this to go, itinere claim thatto be caught and trapped in a mirror is to be driven inward, obsessivelystudying self images as if seeking a viable self. Yes, there's something icut out of the first part. Just for the sake of length is we did a bit of ananalysis of trip, my crosson's chapter being one me which o personality andidentity on the disorder m the discal philosophy book, where he argues that,because granny weatherwax is saying that well you're your descendants ofevery one and your omean. That's all you are that you sort of aguine forgenetic determinism, but i think that is not true, because in the mireside at the end, sheis empowered by the use of the identity cookite that we talked about right. Shesays who are you? You are this one at that point, she is not in a body yeah,so the real granny weatherwax being just her minor herself proves that sheis not a genet, determint or even a materialist. She is always herself, nomatter where or what she is yeah, so that's lily and, of course, lily andgranny weather et armer images of each other, which makes this a good time tofinally address great is uncomfortable conservatives or yet. This is something we've beenpromising to talk about, because it's something that stood out to port of usis so to negative out about the book, and i know you you're all in on thegranny bashing, but i do want to pour at a little bit. I wouldn't call itgranny bashi, i'm not a grinding basher, not yet. I do want to pull back a bit and saythat i do recognize that granny like this is a satire that gran'sconservatism isn't there to be critical of it, but she's also the hero. Sorry,the story. I thought that is still...

...frustrating, though, isn't anyway,that's fine. I don't have a granny bash, but i just want to put in for therecord that my major beef, i think with it other than it being likeuncomfortable throughout, and perhaps you know, pracher was writing. For youknow his time is that it doesn't was talked about this sport before thenarrative. Consistency is out because that's not how she's represented inweird sisters, and yet we are sisters or equal right. I all right. Thank youanyway. She changes or mind. She starts off. Conservative and then she changestheir mind, whereas he she kind of doubles down yeah, and this issomething that not only we've nose but something current say in notes. In herchapter on the witches in the guilty of literature, collection observing. Thatstories are always pulling us towards the conventional, and there is aconservative thread at work in some of nanny's and granny's attitudes, notingthat, while they teach respect for the land and the rights of other creatures,they also reinforce conservative hierarchies such as human above animalculture above nature and masculine above feminine. In the same collection,foul medicine refers to granny weatherwax as a benevolent dictator,drawing parallels between her and the more overtly maca ali and lordvetinnary, which i don't think it's quite that seems off. They both have tobe in charge, don't know, but they one of them is actually a dictator. True pretend briggs also acknowledgethis in the disco companion, pointing out that granny weatherwax isuncomfortable with her uncrown like clear, skin and excellent teeth,stating that she is a traditionalist who believes that progress is an excusefor making bad things happen faster, which is something she says in, whichis a broad. So what stood out to your? In particular, i mean i had a wholelist in fs episode everywhere. She goes. She won't accept how things are sheforces her own understanding of culture in the world on to it and getsfrustrated when those people want jar with it? Essentially she's like you,must assimilate to me everywhere. She goes, and it reminds me very much of inmy travels. You know you met people in london, for example, and hostelswhatever who'd sort of be saying. Oh london didn't used to be like this he'dbe like what do you mean like this? You mean the brown people. Is that yourissue that that's the vibe i got from grenier, whether i act when she'straveling around yeah, because you're right she does. She goes in and humorand shoes from her. Not being able to cope with the culture and it's fin,which is at her expense, but then she always has the upper head she's, alwaysright, because at the start of the book, when he, when they're just discussingthe trip randy where the wax says well, i can't be having with foreign parts toa jerk about her yeah brutishness, but she says like i'll, be having withforeign parts and then he says well, you've been to in more pork, that's fir,which at least we have a reference to. She has been to him o my bok equalrites in the continuity, but granny weatherwax says no. It's not it's justa long way off. That's not the same as foreign yeah foreigns, where theygabble at you in heathen, lingo and eat foreign, muck and worship. You knowobjects phone can be quite close to if you're not careful. Now. Clearly thisis xenophobe. I think at this point this is meant to be she's, going toflip that right, yeah. This is like in in equal rights, which he says no women,cape wizards, and then she realizes a wait. They can and makes it happen.This is setting up something to be subverted, but i don't think it ever isnot fully. Well, i don't know she becomes friends with miss goggle andbut she becomes friends like she has a black friend. It's not a tmesisfighting her and defeating her and telling her how to run a country yeah,there's something there's there's an effort made yeah, so the bit that really sort ofcemented it for me or my my dislike. My discomfort with his conservative streetin which is abroad, is the end monologue, because this is where itstops being granny's. Conservative attitudes that are satirized andsubverted to this is granny's. Hero, monologue telling people what should bedone. This is the way to running our life like she isn't. She goes into thisother country and tells them how to run things becomes white sang her complexagain. Isn't it yeah? So i'm going to read the whole thing out the bigresolution of the book- and this is when yeah emerel has come forth andthey're deciding what to do, and she says this ain't right. You know she'sthe one who watch a rule fair enough and he used magic to help her. This fartalking to miss gogol. He wants to put umberella on the phone and restore themice and go says and that's all right, but it stops here. It's up to her. Whathappens next, you can't make things right by magic. You can only stopmaking them wrong. This coge pulled herself up to a full, impressive heightwho's. You to say what i can and can't do here where her god bothers said.Grannie, that's right, said: nanny ogg we've got a one too said mc gran, butyou hate god. Mother's mistress, weatherwax said missus goggle, wherethe other kind said granny, where the kind that gives people what they know,they really need. What not what we think they ought to want. They'reamerican, then you've done your god. Mothering said miss gogo, who thoughtfaster than most, and you did it very well. You didn't listen, said grannie,there's all sorts of things to god mothering. She might be quite good atruling. She might be bad at it, but she's got to find out for herself withno interference from anyone. So it's...

...okay for granting, whether ex todo, butit's not okay for mistela to do it, i mean miss goggle is trying to tell herto be on the thorne and grannie is leaving it up to her. I get that iunderstand that difference, but that's all that granny wethera's done is asmetal, yeah and she's going. Listen to me. I know best eve and, as miss carlsays, right who's you to say what i can and can't do here. That's precedinwedging that she's this cultural peries, but then he has grady weather back onthe other two which is steam roll over. I know this is the the way- and this isalso a problem because miss guggle is maybe the only significant blackcharacter in all of diswade yeah. I've been reading through some of the otherones, and i mean i'm i'm going through the wizard series, i'm up tointeresting times at the moment, which of that's going to be an interestingmoment. We get to it, okay! Well, what was the name of the traveller whovrents when mates in or fell practise representation of representation ofculture isn't always great is what we've discovered no and the only timeblack people show up is when they're foreigners like when it goes to theegypt kingdom in pyramids and things i guess typic is a, is a duck skin person,but they're always exotici right, there's, no one black hanging out anotmoor, no one explicitly so anyway, and then the trolls and things areracially coded and then the tv show of the watch. The watch is very culturallyand gender divert, which is it so they're sort of pushing back againstthat, but then also just miss the port. Again. This is the fine tyler. Yes, yes,but that's all to say that genuine needs god mothers to come in and tellof what it wants right. It can't decide for itself, or if it does, i can't betrusted yeah as prejet rites in which is abroad. The basic unwritten rule ofwhich craft seems to be don't do what you will do what i say so he's aware ofthis, but he does lean into it at the end and it's frustrating because he'sdone all over this discussion of witchcraft, where he's looked at it asan empowering, you know idea and these witches as the main characters in theprotagonist and then it just all becomes quite degraded when we get tothis point yeah. But if that is that is the unwritten wall, rule of witchcraftand the center of witchcraft kind of degrades the whole thing that he set upyeah. So we what first stood out me, though, was how grating wants the trollto go back and live under the bridge yeah. It says: granny weatherwax hadnothing against tralles, but she felt instinctively that if more charlesstopped wearing suits and walking up right went back to living under bridgesand jumping out and meeting people as nature intended. Then the world wouldbe a happier place right. This is gene determinism coupled with zenophon goback to where you came from, and the reference to the troll under the bridgeis, of course, a reference to the fairy tale of the three dilligane gruff,which was first collected by the norwegian for lorists, peter christian,abideth and gorman mo in the early s, and this is a reference that lear brabo,the l space aniceta says, had him completely stumped for a while, which iwas surprised by like this is a pretty common fairy tower right yeah. I knowit's very its craft, but this is also something preched explores further andi think much better in his short story, troll bridge which was published afterwhich is abroad, one thousand nine hundred and ninety two as part of ananthology honoring jr talking. Did you read this one? I did. What did youthink just generally, was it pretorius gavin, but crochet? Okay, cool yeah, to. It was funny because it was carden, it's just an extension, the coded storyas well. It was fun, yeah yeah, some of that story. The nonagenarian barbariancoen goes to slay a troll who lives under a bridge only to end upreminiscing with the troll about the way things used to be and giving himall his treasure instead, so like riding weather backs, come believesthat what the war needs is people with good memories and adherence totradition. The troll for his part, wants to be killed by a famous hero, sohe'll be famed in sungen story, but his wife and son want to leave the bridgebehind and move tack more pork where they can start there a business andbecome more independent, like all the brothers and of the wife, yeah yeah ye and colin'shorse, also questions him the entire time asking. What's the good of killinga troll, what have you got when you've killed a troll to which come on repliesa dead troll? That's the point so of poking fun at the idea of like.Why is coma doing this like it's just that tradition and it's interestingthat the halberts at the point the story starts with the idea, it's socold. Everyone else is at home, telling stories about heroes and there's thehero who's out, doing the hero thing, but as pointless. Then it comes back tothat at the end. Yeah and both con and the troll discover that they're onlyfighting, because that's what their fathers did before them with the trolllater revealing that, like net in unseen academicals, he only foughtbecause a big troll where the whip tobe him to m. So he didn't even want to doit originally, which is interesting because in the two towers tribad saysthat trolls, like oaks, are only counterfeits made by the enemy inmockery of ants, as awks were of alves. So yeah there's something hintingtowards the expiration box and ancing academicals in this much earlier yeah,almost twenty years before novel, which is something i've noticed now reading,call that going back to the wizard series and i'm about half way through afull re. Read of the this quit series project re cycles, a lot of jokes and alot of ideas that that black, like the inside of thecat thing that i said was my favorite...

...part of which is a broad yeah. That's ajerk he uses in the light, fantastic and- and actually the premise for whichis abroad, is also in light, fantastic. They come across a gingerbread cottageand they all talk about fairy tales, yeah half the ideas for all these otherbooks are all just scenes in the light fantastic like they sit around. Someonementions the tooth ferry and then they go imagine a whole castle made of teeth,filled by truth, fairies and then that's hog, father, so interesting,also interesting about trol bridge. This is the game thing you werethinking about because gain who were maybe going to do. A bonus episode onnext month also published the story called troll bridge in one thousand.Nine hundred and ninety three were in a london school by promises, a troll tocome back to his bridge and let him eat his life. When he's older, rightsogamon story was written for the revisionist fairy tale, collection,snow, white blood red and was nominated for a world fantasy award, one thousandnine hundred and ninety four but lost to fred chapels. The lodger you everhead of that yeah, which i also thought, was interesting because although he wasgiven a life achievement award for the color of magic and more in two twentyten, none of fresh short stories have ever been nominated for the world fancyaward and of all his novels. Only good arvens, his collaboration with gamin,has ever been dominated as well, which is absurd. Great now, i think he'sdefinitely been nominated and maybe one some of the british fantasy award. Sothere's a divide here between game ans, american cratchits, british, but likecome on not even nominated the most popular fantasy series throughout theeighties. In the s now, don't worry about it and also as well as you say,game and got no man ed for everything. Gaming says the project was a huge influenceon him. So, like i've got it written here, pyramids is the only novel bycrachit to date to have won the british science fiction award, and that isthat's whan. I reread that is not a good disk wo yeah. Meanwhile, almostsitani gamin rights gets nominated, although he only ever won the the world fantasy award for the sameman. Comic story, a midside ni stream, which is what we're going to talk aboutnext month, though, is one hugo is for the graveyard book and american gods,which i think are quite bad m. Yeah daman says he wanted to call his trollbridge story trip trap, but he couldn't, since jane wolf, had already used thattitle, so we just stole cratchets. Instead, i guess i do call prech it upand be like hey man, you, okay, if still makes things very confusing,though right, yeah, so that's old to say no games, a hacker, rips off tarrcrutched, all the time you had in her first gets a you'll hear it again nextmonth patron special, but yes specter, which is abroad. We'renot meant to sympathize with granny about this right yeah. He reflectionthat the lack of tradition being the problem is sitting out parallels withlilith, which grady led a flippard in a purse, but the smith's points outlittle decoration that, if you've got no respect, you've got nothing echoes,granny's earlier complaint that if you ain't got respect you ain't got a thingin the tavern where nobody knows about witches, and this thing about respectis something she repeats in the later books as well. So this is precede thinkknowingly, showing how granny and lily are two sides of the same coin and thatit's not. This might be the idea that there is no bad magic, which we kind ofpopoe and since going back and reading sorcery and the lack fantastic is,there is bad magic in dis world right, but the idea that these ideasthemselves aren't bad, but it's the way they're acting on it. I guess there'salso grannie, saying of the duke in wid sisters. He didn't have no respect andthe one people lose their respect. It means trouble. So she sees respect isadherence to the net, the natural order of things which she abides by and whenpeople don't abide by her word view, then she thinks they'd lot respect shewants to keep him under the pricking of her indeede. Conversely, definitelyantonia wallis argues that it is mgrate determination to impose standards ofproper behavior on the unruly organic nature of linco society that isdangerously close to that of li li weatherwax and contains the sameconnotations of disrespect for human freedom, and indeed, granny considersboth nothing but daft god. Mothers, who, i think, is a bit hard on young migrate.I don't think she's very lowly asked i mean that is the thing. That's the lotof the rings thing that, if she's tempted by the one she will become lilybecause she just wants to fix everything with the wand, but if we'resaying that magic itself can't be bad, that one can't be bad and maybe mcgrathuse it in good ways a great. So i don't know too much to say about mss gobal.Do you yeah? I don't know she isn't a really well developed character. Ithink that's one of the problems: yeah she's a cool character, but not a verydeep one, yeah, that's it, but there's not a mutton whose thesis are the useof formulas and terrorises disk club who discussed in carton. He had thecool theory about the lord of the rings, stuff go em and everything he pointsout that miss goggle is also a double of earth, just like granny weatherbacks, and he says that really represents order and aristocracy. Wemiss coal represents anarchy and the common people surmising that the mainpurpose of missus goggles were althota ly, is to represent the potential forabuse of power, even in the forces that oppose the villain- and this is againsecond tom- it's been brought up on the podcast on where make a by a shock,infinite reference, because in that...

...game, there's the black rebellionagainst the the torrents and they go through a time if they come back andnow the black people are in charge and they were evil genocide as well andeverything's horrible, and if you let the black rebellion win, that will justbe evil and centerism right. This is that game has drawn a lot of criticismfor this since it's release and i think the same as may be applicable topreched, even if he doesn't show miss goggle being a tyrant, he's implying itbe same, but different and yeah. Okay yeah. I also take issue with her beingthe representative of anarchy and the common people, given that her goal isto restore the monarchy, yeah just thinking that yeah, so i'm not sure howmuch credence i put in that read. But missis goggle also gives us anotherconnection to disney's princess and the frog in the figure of baron samedi orbaron saturday. The vudu lord of the dead, who appears as the assumed zombieservant of miss goggle and turns out to be the king and hiding yeah. So theread is given the false lead by nano of man saturday, which is referencingrobinson crusoe's native friend man, friday. We read robinson crusoe. Youwant to explain the man friday. It's like i'm actually going to use castawayto explain, may rent friday, because it's the it's wilson. Isn't it wellwilson if he was a subjugative black man, yeah eactly, that's what i was got for, soi've actually read it, and i really should i was going to before this. Butthen i just didn't see. I was obsessed with treasure planet as a kid tregenna.An atlantis was my favorite disney films, probably because there's athere's, an apposite, parent and treasure planet- and i was like thiswill help me wet through traumas, an absom parent in every disney room, verye. It is there's a whole song. It's a yeah, you've got to say it and you'llget what i at that led me down. Reading robertson, crusoe at a very young age.Actually, because i read treasure treasure island and then i readrobinson chriseros, it's one that keeps coming up for me surprisingly inrelation to science fiction, because it's sort of an apocalyptic last mannovel without their being an apocalypse, but like all the postophori one man,scabbard native narratives, are based on this survival. Deservin sort ofthing be so robinson cruise is the white go, gets trapped on the island,and then he makes one of the natives into, or i've said quote friends, butlike he's a slave right, he's a slave, so not great that nanny oggs, referringto the first black guy she sees as man friday, but also this is a reference toromis and cruso. So did we get that through the content residence as wellyeah? I see you mean yea, which is going to come in to play lords andladies, but this point i think it's sloppy some further voto connections, ithought were worth pointing out that mss gogel's for name is ojila gogol andin rudy law. Matris ogula is the ideal as figure of womanhood and the spiritof love and beauty. Okay, but the aga is also an order of the angel like aoaor voodoo spirits. I'm not sure if i'm saying that properly, who are oftenassociated with water and fluidity as well as feminine or feminized bodiessuch as those of some queer or trans men who they're said to sometimespossess. So we have this idea of gender bending associated with rich craft andmagic again, but is that just because queerness and femininity are demonizedright like if you're feminine, you must be taken over by one of these femaledemons rather than just that's, who you are so that's less an impoweringassociation there i think, but maybe could be reclaimed. I'm not sure ididn't do too much look into vito stuff and i'm not even sure if, like voutesthe right word for it, whether i should be cool in get voodoo. How much it allrelates, because i think my broad understanding is there is a haitianreligion called vido of vedovo? U, but then broadly these offshoot, religionsor similar religions, i referred to as brude and i'm not sure how much of acloninger term that is, i see so i'm not really that comfortable talkingabout vido, but it also like lillah, surprisingly didn't come up that much and i didn't. I was just w. We'vecovered a lot here, so i didn't go and hard on the voodoo stuff ad i went. Ifollowed the yellow brick road and spar, but going back to the idea that i don'tknow if this is the most insightful representation of voter, it's all lebit of a mishmash is especially comes to the fore. Miss gogol has a housethat walks on chicken feet, which is a reference to the slavic witch bobbyyoga, not voter, so he's just sort of associating weird, which things i don'tthink he's really making a point about any of it. But another thing that neworleans is associated with the prechent engages with more fully is the idea ofthe carnival so which is brought ends with a festival which is a parody ofthe famous new orleans motor festival, yeah surprisingly madigas, or thattuesday is actually a christian tradition. All right, o the last daybefore me, which many observing christians fast on yea in preparationfor easter, so fat tuesday, is the last day we eat everything before the fastover e star got ca and myron can of all also bring us back to our boy buck inhe'syour boy go he's everyone's boy.

Apparently he comes up every. He cameup in my star trek research as well. I might go away so in one thousand. Nine hundred andsixty five reassessment of the fifteenth century french setter isfrancois rebels and his world buck to explores the history of carnival andcontra aria as buckton describes. It laughter was an essential aspect ofancient societies with aristole, even arguing that laughter was the single,essential feature that set humans. Apart from and above other animals andearly christianity. However, he says canovas and just humor in general werewidely outlawed, or at least condemned with the first century. Christianpreacher, john chris osten, even preaching against mimes and declaringthat laughter was not from god but from the devil, so stick batting your poetduring this period. Button also says that rudiments of gayety and laughterwere primarily preserved and revive through eastern influences and localpagan rights, especially by the rights of fertility which were later adoptedinto christian ritual. So that's how we get things like so yeah, with first afull humor again becoming legalized at medieval church, sanction festivals andagain revived during the renaissance, primarily through the works of rabelesand shakespeare. Okay, this is this book. It is actually a reallyinteresting read. I just read the first hundred pages or so, which way he'sgoing through this history of carnival and humor and literary humor thingsbefore it actually gets into like the close analysis of rebels is workbecause i'm not really familiar with that, but i was one of those ones wherei'm like. Oh i'm just going to read this section about the carnival stuffin the first chapter and then i just read a hundred pages of it. I'm likewhoa get away of this. So it's an interesting read, but the point ofcarnival is that it doesn't so much invert power structures. This is theidea of the fall becoming the king and what not in weird sisters, right kindof as the one day you were allowed to make fun of the king, but he says yeah,it doesn't invert, doesn't make fools kings and kings fools that flattens itso that falls equal to kings during the carnival there is no power hierarchy.That's the idea anyway, but then also says the wall kind of a last. There isno other life outside of it. During canial time, life is subject to issubjected only to its laws. That is the laws of its own freedom. It has auniversal spirit, is as a special condition of the entire world of theworld's revival and renewal, in which all take part. He cautions, however,that the carnival is far distant from the negative and formal parody of mongtimes poka denies he says, but it revives him renew. At the same time,the negation which he associates with personal literal, just specifically hesays, is completely alien to folk culture right. It has no revivingproperty. He's writing this in on th n s, when postmans is virgin ing and adetached person on an irony starting to take hold throughout literature andwider culture. But yeah buckton doesn't like this. This irony he says it's justit's taking everything down it doesn't revitalize. It doesn't propose anythingin its spite that the s buck in cautions that kind of satoris are notobjective. Judgmental observers. They laugh at themselves as well, so wouldbuckton like prachin, i don't know well, he are one thousand nine hundred andseventy five when precede a a few set story, so we'll never know, probablynot projets to person one for him, but i do think he sticks closer to bactonidea of carnival parody the most like. I don't think pratchett particularlyironic, he's farcical, he's satirical, but i don't think he's doing thisperson on irony like not in the same way as the others he's not bleak. Yeahindeed enter and butler suggest that one of backcasts, ess ment of raaleswork could equally be a applied to project. Saying that patrits imageshave a certain undestroyable non official nature. There is no dogma, noauthority as authoritarianism, no narrow minded seriousness that canexist with these images. These images are opposed to all that is finished andpolished to all pomposity to every ready made solution in the sphere ofthought and world outlook. So he's specifically saying project isrebellion kind of les- i don't know i'm not quite sold on. There is no dogma orno authoritarianism or narrow mindedness, especially if i just lookedat the narrow mind and tes yeah, that's ower on the authoritarian. I do. I do think there's something tothis. Where prices pros monism is the metafor aspect rather than the areironic aspect, i guess, but yeah i rather than easter. The celebrations injanuary more readily suggest the traditional celebration of all hello'seve or halloween, which is another surprisingly christian tradition,albeit with distinctive pagan and cautious like easter. So it's the dayof the dead man. Whiches are abroad in some cultures and the debased to walkthe earth like baron saturday. So there's another kind of induced powerand version going on there, a boy smith. He says the swamp like the carnivalrepresents. Chaos is miasmic, it resists attempts to structure it andthough you might build walk disney world on top of it some day, the swampwill come back and swallow whatever structures have been super imposed onit all right, but that's just entropy yeah right. This is why people make funof literary studies right like there is something going on here with the floridand the swamps, but we said in the last podcast that the reason why i prachedset this in new orleans is because he drove there yeah and then maybe heisinvoking the swamp of things, but i...

...don't think it's. This wet is just i.It is lander water. Some is both den alive. Okay. I i not the swamp thing so much. I thinkthe swamps just to say, but speaking of terrible literary theory theories, ihave one. Are you ready, allita, sorry, something in notised researching, whichis a broad? Was that critics kept referring to it as a pastate? So do youknow what pestigeous a pastiche? It is mimicking something, but it's not meantto ly funny. It's just meant to be flat out and in a tre yeah. I think so imean it's a confusing term. That's kind of used as different meanings indifferent contexts and different people are using different ways. The odconflicts pastate with just parody, says it's a different way parody andthe incorporation of different styles, which yes, if they're. I think thesecritics are probably using that meaning of it saying that this is a parody andit incorporates all these different fairy tales into one big narratin. Iget that right, but pastate also has a very particular meaning when it comesto persoon right in one thousand, nine hundred and eighty three essaypersonism and the consumer society, frederick jamison who's tugarin, likethe way in gore, is the t yeah. So he argues in this essay that,along with the collapsing of high and low culture, that pestigeous one of themost significant features or practices of pers monism and he definespestigeous as distinct from parody, which we discuss definitions of parodyin the weird sisters, episode parete, targeting something and playing it upto subvert yeah, so jamison says parody, capitalizes on the nickus styles andseizes upon their insincere and eccentricities to reduce an imitationthat mocks the original, while maintaining the intimation of what hecalls a linguistic norm, in contrast to which the target of the parody can bemarked, as we said, plays it up and says, this is ridiculous and comparesit to something else that it wants to ascertain its place once this idea of alink ingisi or cultural norm like the objective not norm at the center of themodenas movement, once this collapses or becomes to stabilizers parodybecomes impossible because there is no norm to compare things to so. Therefore,instead, it is replaced by pastiche, which he defines as the intimation of apeculiar or unique style or the wearing of a stylistic mask. Unlike parody. Hesays mastich is a neutral practice of such mimicry without parodi's ulteriormotive without the satirical impulse without the laughter, it is blankparody parody that has lost its sense of humor. I do think there is acriticism in some pestigeous, but it's sort of saying that things can't beotherwise right stories that start with mirrors have to end with a miramas,because they can't not so you're adhering to the style, and you may beacknowledging that this style is ridiculous, but you are not parrotingit and saying this is silly. We should do something else, you're going once amirror has mentioned. I've got to end up here. Does that make sense? No o? No, i think this is just one of thosepostpones things that you know you can accept in theory, but i'm not sure iget it in practice. Paste. It's often used as a a criticism like if you sayoh, this is just a past age of right is flat. It's not doing anything. It yeahlike okay, like i'm, trying to think of a muga. Something only example i canthink of is an obscure death metal. No he's surprised well just because i usedthe word pestigeous talking about there's a noun by the band calledcontraria and they put out a new album and it was pretty good like not a badalbum, but i was talking about it with eating who had a heavy blog that iwrite for, and he does some watery science fiction stuff as well- and iwas saying this one good, but it's just a past age of early nineties, deathmetal like it's cool right, so just using it, but not doing it to a reallya representation of the sound. But it's just doesn't have its own identity. Iget it. I get it wow. You use heavy metal to explain a pre, i mean you canpiatto anything, i'm trying to think like action, movies right, big, dumbactual aries. I was going to say john werk, but john wick does vera do newthings, but you want to see arnold schwate say i'll, be back becausethat's what i was what i it does and if he doesn't do that, then it hasn'tappeared to your expectations, but it can also be in a personal sense ofcriticism that if you have a guy walking oronoco through a mirror maze,it's sort of commenting on well. Of course, i'm in a merrimac right, but,unlike parody, the combats these expectations of or these doms it justhighlights them goes here is the mrima, but it doesn't say it doesn't yeahunder cut it at all. Jonason says: postman hastie is an imitation of deadforms, giving the original star wars as the example, which is a much betterexample than a obscure death metal home. He says that styles itself is a pastateof sadday morning, cereals, right. It's taking all these old serialistattentions of putting them together to create something new, but there wouldbe no point in parading styles because he obviously hasn't seen space balls,because it's already an imitation of something else. You see how this hassort of tied him with similars and things, and he says what star wars doesinstead, rather than commenting on these old properties, is it satisfies adeep, perhaps repressed, longing to experience these dead forms again,which i think sort of ties into this...

...idea of like what is the point ofparting fairy tales like? Where are the new ones? Disney movies are pasties offairy tales yeah, but they're written in a way for, like young kids intoday's well to understand them. You know right satisfying the longing toexperience the dead fairy tale form rather than creating a stories. Thereare new stories added and i even if it's just new perspectives, but i see apoint with the idea that the princess has to marry the prince. That's apastiche. Also. The disney renaissance is a throwback to golden age, disneyyeah gone age. Dis was films, adults had in their youth of snow white andsleeping beauty that they grew up on, so they made films about fairy talesfor their children, then grow up. So it's a nostalgia thing right, sopastate, as we saw from the ad definition, is also the mixing ofstyles. So that's where the creativity can come from is you're not innovatingon these two stars, but then you're taking two things that haven't been puttogether and putting them together right. What happens when we mix whichfamose with fairy tales or something right but yeah? I don't, as we sort ofsaid before, i don't think tis god has this detached ironic objectivists viewit's going for now. It's barty, it's parody right, yeah in the guilty ofliterature collection, john clud, who is one of the original science fiction,encyclopedia ed, is claims that while preche writes parody, it's almostalways benign open, ended and without a point of animus, so hard disagree onthat one there go on go off just clearly prech. It has very cleartargets that he is yeah tacking, as we've discovered, so the dominance ofhastati person on literature also connects to what john bath calls theliterature of exhaustion when attempting to divine post monas thetisin one thousand nine hundred and sixty seven essay of the same name. This isthe same guy who re lost in the fun house, with the mirrors and ulysses andeverything yeah jumbari, a different girl, roan bath and john bath. I romanais literature. Exhaustion do now the tur! That's when you sent me to istarted reading, and i was like oh no. This is i really like the riot wasfunny, and i i have time for this funniness though yeah his books areworth reading and i need to read more of them, but into finding postmanliterature as the literature of exhaustion both specifies that hedidn't mean physical, moral or intellectual decadence. Only the usedupnos of certain forms or the felt exhaustion of certain possibilities.Sis is like what we're saying the exhaustion of the mirror thing. That isa used up idea. He then writes an say in one thousand. Nine hundred andeighty called the literature or plenishin which he intends, as acompanion and corrective to the literature exhaustion where heclarifies that what the literature of exhaustion was really about was theeffective exhaustion not of language or literatura, but of the aesthetics ofhimnon sm. So that's him specifically saying the miramas as a reflection onself has been done. We need to do something else with it. He then goesrights lost in the fun house that has a twist on the bar amazing you i. He saysthat the simple burden of the essay was that the forms and modes of art live inhuman history and therefore subject to use upness that artistic conventionsare liable to be retired, subverted transcended transformed or evendeployed against themselves to generate a new and lively work, not that it hasall been done already and that there is nothing left for contemporary writers,but to parody, and travesty are great predecessors in our exhausted medium,so he's kind of siding with buck. On a bit here, where he's saying you can'tjust be blank nihilism, you have to create through your party, but you canyeah. I am going somewhere with this. I promise in the literature of exhaustion.Bath also expresses admiration for artisan writers, who are genuine virtuethat as vanessa virtuosi virtuosi, but it's a virtuose there wego. I got it right as her genuine virtuise. I can't remember which one'sthe right one now thank you at doing things that anyone can dream upand discuss, but almost no one can do expressing a specific admiration forboyes who's. The map, the mate coming, a terita which it turns out, actuallycomes from louis carroll. A everything does it's in: what's it called? Is itsylvia brute the other lewis, carl story? So not else in wonderland, butin one of these other books they it as part of the ridiculous, absurd sort ofthing. There are people that roy tracing out a map on the ground infront of them, and then boyes comes along later and writes that in a littleshort story and because he's the cool argentinian, modernist writer runs likea boys, i do so than carl, but i just find thatinteresting because he's boy he's is the guy and his main things weremirrors and shakespeare, just like just like prace were finding out, but that'sjust pesoes really mirrors and shakespeare in the oddys. Fast fan is amaris and shakespeare. A confers proces taking these and running them through afantasy filter at he's literalising these metaphors. So we get a literalmiramas that has sucked out really so rather just being implicit, which iscool. Let's get to my crazy for there now, but it is specifically usingparody to combat postige. What he is parroting is not fairy tales. What he'sparroting is pastiche itself is not the fairy tales he's making fun of it. Isthe idea of the story running down the...

...mountain? Okay, i mean that worksbecause he's done it in previous books as well he's got. He did it in weirdsisters: yes, okay, crazy theory concerned that is my final assessmentof which is abroad. Are you happy with that? Els? Can that so we kin over through this section,probably because we're about three hours into our third round on podcasting about which is abroad? But i wasn't quite as clear about the connectionshere, as i would have liked to be so to clarify my reading is that lily'skingdom is stagnant because all she can do is pestigeous can only create ironicinferior reflections of stories that have no substance or point of their own,and she can only show people what they've been doing wrong, not correctanything or suggesting what they could be doing right. She doesn't wantumbrella to go to the carneval, because that's where the power of parody liesand when she does lilith is undone and she becomes trapped in a minglest worldof ironic self reflection that she can't see any way out of because she,like person and paste, has no real identity or positive identity. I havealso since found a couple of articles being gittin haven's chapter on parody,pastate and satire, and tory pratie discard novels from the two thousandand eighteen narrative world's collection and a section from dorothyanderson's thesis, bewitching writing which similarly assert theirrevitalizing nature of projects parody in opposition to pastiche. I neither doso in direct connection to which is a broad. However, so i might even ridenotice about that myself. I think clarification concluded nothing else tosay. Neither do i all we've got left is the misorder, i'm wondering if themiscel section deserves its or theme song. Okay, let us world miss weldstuff that doesn't fit yeah t. Do you want? Do you want made it in theway we yerth? I may be come through my speakers. I think it got compressed bythe zoo, so i'll see what it sounds like on your arm. Yes, i miss well, i just wanted tobring out hans christian anson because he's the only big fairy tale guy thatnone of his fairy tales actually get paraded in this book. His fairy talesthat we know, which are all one that have been preserved through disney, butthe little mermaid thumbelina and the emperor's new clothes, so franchet isanti hands, don't know just when project was picking y went with peroand the grooms, i sure, was an interesting emission. It's also theadmission of beauty and the beast, even though we did dan came up for otherreasons, and that is a fairy tale written by the french novelist, gabrielsuzanne bade de villen, which is published in seventeen forty yeah. So ijust wanted to point out that those are the only two sort of big fairy talesthat are getting overlooked here. We also have a bit of a felix suggestionto mac grat and especially granny weather axes. Brove sticks on the cover,don't you agree, absolutely, no es good for that. The scone was very suggestivein that it had the veins and the stars shooting out of it. Well i mean that isjust the shape, look at it and where it's it, where it's coming front yeah and that sort of justlike which is on broom sticks like it's already. Feli, so it's not like he'sdrawing a pates during a thing that is a penis, but it looks a lot like apenis like granny's the way she's gripping it there. It's a lot. That's apaines yea. The thing that i wanted to mention just because it came up a fewtimes in the literature of replenishment. Essay bath sits gabrielgussie a mark. He is, and nineteen sixty seven novel one hundred years ofsolitude as the closest example of the perfect press, man, novel or just aliterary masterpiece in general, and that book involves a man building acity out of merris ave got it does the literary critic were moan. We talkedabout also brings it up when discussing perfect books in his two thousand andfive lecture reflections on mirrors, which is all about marise. After t, doyou know one hundred es of solitude? No, i know love in the time of poleron thattending of all my pas for for i started it, and i got about a third of the waythrough and was just like a mainstream latory fiction. It em fine. It justwasn't made a more wizards, a yes or aspaceships, isn't that novelly erything well wizards in space right, star wallsthat hit? I was i'm like m a let's get to the mirror city and it didn't comequick enough. So one day, i'll get a hat sol. The problem, all right and-and the last thing in the miscued section- is the vegetarian stuff, which i am justdumping in the end here. But there is a thread at some point. All this is goingto come to get up because is which is a broad, the most conestoga book kind ofbeing meat eating. You didn't notice that going through it, they went around.They ain't meet a lots of place, as i noticed that you have is goggle. Whocan do things with a chicken that would make it almost glad it had been killed.They also have nadia who won't eat anything without an apple in its mouthand even the vegetarian margret who, when she's talking about the pigs beingthe neighbors, the three little pigs party when she's going well, they werepigs. You know what pork is before its pork, so there's a lot of meat stuff.He identifies yeah going on in this book, which the big vegetarian thingsgoing to come to a head in lord and lady, so we'll revisit it there, butjust setting it up there a lot of talk...

...about meat in this book. All thatleaves us is our favorite jokes. I feel like we've done, favorite jokesthroughout you, a favorite jag, a the ones we've mentioned already were woods,have sex and ford parts and yeah. That was in which i also realized. Thatimplies that there is butter in the discord but i'll. Let it go for a goodpun and the the other thing i like, which i did bring up. Incidentally, wasi like that many or self identified as a disgusting, our baggage, i just felt out of esutora- think we'refinally done elise. Thank you for indulging me in a three part episodemostly about things not a as a lady yeah. Do it i'm excited about lords and,ladies i'll start it i'll finish. Camilla and i'll start it tonight and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseenacademicals to be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait untilthen you can sign up to our patron page and get all the episodes of full monthin advance, along with any bonus episodes or specials that and i'm doing,if you're after more of us alice horse her an podcast of the devil's party,which traces the development of the satanic era throughout romantic andgothic literature thinks to a bibliography for today show, along withthe fully reference to foot n, the transcript should be available in theepisode description, thanks for listening and stay change or someamusing attics eh you want. We both have particularlines from the mad or in the attic, because there's a whole bunch of stuffabout milton and mary shelley's frankenstein, which is you know, stuffellis and i are very invested in and do a lot of research about theparticularly orca. So, alas, do you want to read yours? I love when studentto use this one as well. I'm just like. Oh, it's come off hows. It angry in thecomments all right. So, for eve is sins as well as satan's double then satan isto eve what he is to sin, both the lover and a daddy. The where daddy's come up more is donein a lot of scholarship. Yeah strange, my major grit comes when they'retalking about how freken stein servet the female role in the creation of lifeby making a man without having to go through pregnancy and everything, andthey describe his pregnancy and child birth. They say are obviouslymanifested by the existence of the paradoxically huge being who emergesfrom his worst workshop of filthy creation, filthy because obscenelysexual and actually sit this filthy creation line about ten different timesthroughout the chapter they really fix at on about like this, filthy creationis what makes like creation is filthy because it's feminine and because itchild birth is filthy as well, but it's filthy because it's, i was going to say hubristic, but it'sdefying the natural order. It's filthy, it's in seaful. It's sinful, that's theword yeah! It's feel tick as a sinful and also because the quote fromfrankenstein that this comes from the full quote is the dissecting room inthe slaughter house furnished many of my materials saying that he collectedbones from charnel houses and disturbed with profane fingers the tremendoussecrets of the human frame in my filthy workshop of creation. So it's filthybecause it's covered with animal and dead body parts and things and for mecoming from the animal ethics vegetarianism side of things, it'sfilthy because he's mixing human and nonhuman parts to create a new creature.That's what sinful about it, not so much that it doesn't involve a woman orthat it's a man doing a woman's job. I think that reading is there, andcertainly mary shelley, who was pregnant. Her whole life and had allthese male influences sort of using her to procreate. There's definitelysomething going on there, but i find a lot of feminist readings of frigates ati really like limit it. To that i be down to go. There's nothing else goingon here. It's all about childbirth and it's like childbirth is in there. Butit's about fifth or six down on the list. Also there's much better evidenceto sort of discuss that and- and i think this is representative of of ourwhole beef with gilbert and goobar- that they'll take something and justcompletely move it away from the context in a way that could like whattheir argument is, could be helpful and could be useful, but they don't seem toknow enough about the text all they're so invested in applying that rating,that it completely corrupts like what the text actually means and it takesforever to get us back to it as astrid. Yes, she gets no respect. We said thatmaggy, maggie smith was a perfect fit for any weather acts, but she would bebetter played by running dangerfield elsje. I was going to see what workeddidn't getting cut t.

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