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4A – Witches Abroad - Part 1

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Episode 4A of Unseen Academicals, discussing the third book in the Witches Series, Witches Abroad (1991), and using it to explore the characterisation of Magrat and her tension with Granny Weatherwax, crises of identity, homoerotic familiars, fairy godmothers, how fairytales shape culture, way too much about Sleeping Beuaty and The Wizard of Oz, a bit of Shrek, and, uh... dildos. Lot's of dildos. Nanny Ogg would be proud (we hope!).

The sound on this one is actually pretty good!

There's an intermittent thumping sound that shows up now and then, I've done my best to minimise it and I've found speeding up the podcast to 1.2x or 1.5x speed smooths it out a lot.

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod
 



 

Before we do our actual intro. There what we need to do. So we need to thank jess. Thanks Jess. Thanks J just. Who signed up to our patreon? Ah, yes, you're the best. Yeah, who's the only one who's done so so far? Just has a band. Let's give her a plug. Just has a band. Really. Yeah, they're called the Maggie pills. They love it a I would like, sort of an indie garage rock, grungy kind of band. They got a band campaige, there on the spotify. So yeah, check out the Maggie pills and support jess because she supports us. What's desk world? It's dear as world, podcast analysis. Yeah, so I'm Josh and I'm Alice and with the unsaying academicals. Yep, yeah, we are, and this week we're going to be talking about one thousand nine hundred and ninety ones, which is abroad, the third book in the witches series and the twelve overall discworld book. We're in the informal covering of granny weather, wax and nanny og and newly annointed fairy Godmother Magart glic must contend with the power of fairy tales on their way to the New Orleans as city of jenuine genuine? Was that how you'd say? Can you want genuine? I think it's genuine. Nyare to confirm grinning weather waxes sister Lilith and save Princess Embrella from having to marry a prince and go to the bowl. We're going to use the book to explore the nature of stories, the power of parody, familiars, classic Fairy Tales, Mirrors, the wizard of Oz Khnis. I'm way too much about sleeping beauty, cultural shauvinism and much, much more. But first, in honor of the rupules drag race recap podcast, Ellis, please tell me two things you liked about the book and one thing you did not. Okay, I've broken the roll and put two things I don't like, but okay, so hang on. Overall, you're not feeling this one. No, I've got two free all render. Yeah, I thought we're having another weird says no, no, no, like a huge mistake. You've find okay too, and her. Yeah, two things I liked. I loved my grata. That's just that's it. We will discuss I'm sure she gets all section. Yes, and I really enjoyed the granny weather, waxx gambling, see or okay, I just really felt that. And I have lots to say about the DILDO jokes, but we'll get to that later. They don't have their own section, unless you fine notice you left it out, so I found all the courts and put it in. That's for right. Got To have those dildos in there anyway. Um, two things I didn't like. The weird racism along the way. Really, Yep, what smacks you in the mouth constantly, and I'm going to use a word that's going to make you make a face, and that word I've come up with is it's very shrek ask. And I know Pratchett came first, he short did, and Shrek is later and blah, blah, blah. But the whole time I out Shrek, Shrek is very pratchetice exactly, and some truck revelations to come. Oh God. Yeah, but now it's yes, yes, it's trek and structor crick ask, tructacular straight MMM, just trek ask. I know shriks, but come like a bit of a mean and speaking. I don't want our reverence for Shrek to be like Shrek, like Shrek came out when I was, what ten eleven years old, I would have thought it was real good. It was great, welcome the first one. Never really got along with any of the sequels, even as a thirteen, twelve year old. One's okay, I he's. The second one's the best, but I don't really want it the best. First One's the best when he kicks open the doney door, like you, come on, that's the best. So I feel like we're getting a bit mean. Sorry, no, but I do. I don't do like the at least the original Shrek. And yes, this is doing Shrek. I was modern is. Yeah, yeah, prest one fair time. Yeah, which we're gonna talk a lot about. I have a question about you don't Dwarf bread to come, but I don't know what. I don't really have a section about to offer. It's just a lot on concerts. It's a Lord of the rings thing. That was the bread that keeps them of. Yah, yeah, okay. It's just making fun of it because it's meant to be hard and got a shit. I mean this does in the later disco books you have the scarn of stone in front. I don't know if you ever got to that one, but it becomes an ongoing thing. But yeah, there's not, nothing really more to that here than they're just making fun of okays, all right, yeah, arms, that was the you did too, and too. Yeah, sorry, break the rules. What it's meant to be a rough guy. Feel too bad for me. Well, my one thing I like is Magret. Love Magrat and really did not vie with her at all the my first two times through the series, which I think I said on the last podcast. But yeah, really enjoying her on this reread, loving her character arc, loving her in the next book, which will get to. But yeah, MAG so Magaret's up there. Will book more about her. My second thing I liked was the end, the last third of the book, which is very broad, but just when it kicks in to like the final action sequence, it really goes like it takes off the confrontation in genuine with the with the snakes and everything and granny versus Lilith and Miss Google. It's just I just think that is expertly done. See it was, but I really enjoyed all the lead up stuff of them just having fun on the roads. Yeah, I think we're both saying that it's this is a much better book than Weird Sisters are my God, Yeah, O, my God. Yeah,...

...this this I was a bit worried. It's got structure and plot and not just constant bad references to Shakespeare. Yeah, so I think we're a lot more positive about this and I think I think it's definitely better written. I think he's really found his voice in the world with this one. But it just as far as like action set pieces at the end, I da just thought it was sick. That's the two things I like. The one thing I disliked, which I think we've got a bit of overlap here, is granny's weird imperialism and cultural chauvinism and conservatism. Stop that, granny, yeah, which we'll talk about now. I think we're recording this now, so we'll see how it goes. The plan with this one is because turns out we have so much to go through, so much to say about this book because rather than even with weird sisters, which was looking at Shakespeare, it's still confined to just shakespeare. This is what if all fairy tales. Yeah, so I think this has the when we were saying weird sisters has the most limited scope of maybe be any book. It's contained in the kingdom. It's focusing on Macbeth, with a few other references whom I should take a breath. This one, I think, maybe has the broadest scope of any disco book. Of they literally trek across the country from like Scotland Esk Yeah, north England, to New Orleans. Yeah, and go through an entire genre of stuff along the way. So there's a lot to come here. So I think the way we're going to do it is this is going to be broken into two parts, which I'm hoping, rather than coming out a month apart like the other episodes, will drop one now and we'll drop one in the middle of the month. So in a fortnight today we're going to be covering everything on the way to journey are so on the road and the fairy tales and things they look at there, and then next episode will be January and everything on. That's the idea. Maybe we'll see how it goes, I mean, but that's that's the plan. So we'll talk more about I think the grannies conservatism stuff really kicks in. Yeah, when in January? So that'll probably be safe for next episode. But yeah, so we like this book. That's pretty sure, so let's get into it then. So yeah, as with the other ones, I'm going to start by talking about the reception to the norm the like weird sisters is he is very highly regarded. It's another book that Andrem Butler gives a five out of five rating in his pocket essentials guide, calling it great fun, which I would agree with. Yeah, I'm I haven't actually been able to find or access any reviews from around the time of publication weird lead. These are really hard to find. I did find a one thousand nine hundred and ninety three article in the Christian magazine. The Third Way we're project refers to a Sunday Times out of also we've got like three layers of reference here, where project refers to a Sunday Times review where in the writer described him as talentless, unable to draw characters, unfunny, and then the review ended up by suggesting the world might be a better place without you. See, that's very UNCHRISTIAN. True, I have not been able to source the original of this review. I can't find any reference to it. That's not here. But I did find another one thousand nine hundred ninety three article on Pratchett by Barry Phelps in the antiquarian book monthly review, which also refers to a Sunday Times review, which is abroad, which concluded that project. gamely jest that occasionally he gets accused of literature, but I cannot for the supernatural life of me, imagined by whom. So this review seems to be out there. I can't find it. Anything I can find from the Sunday Times is from masquerader after and there they are very reverent of Pratchett. Well, they would have been reviewed. So I can't find anything. Yeah, and it's a bit obviously like he hasn't reached that untouchable stage that we saw with unseen academical scree. Thought that was a subpart book, but everyone's going, oh, but he's Terry Pratchett though, and it's amazing Ye, from right like him. This is pretty early on it. It's the twelve book in the series, which seems like a lot, but we're still only six years into the the thing. So and it's comedic fantasy, so it's already not been taken that seriously by the truture reviewers, I imagine. HMM. So I did find a joint review of which is a broad and small guards by grigory freely be in Washington Post from one thousand nine hundred and ninety four, where he describes both books as labored compared to Pratchett's earlier, shorter writing. Yeah, you and I both like this book and I think this has become one of his most revered. I was already talking last week about how there was so much more about weird sisters and there was about equal rights. There are so much more about which is abroad than there is. Like, I think this is the big one. Okay, I heard what's the big one, because I cannot keep a weird sisters in which is a broad level of research up and having looked ahead that there's a little bit on Lords and ladies, are almost nothing on masquerade and cover job of them. So I think, yeah, they these two are where he hits his sort of academic peak. Yep. Yeah, we're both really positive about this book and one of the things we were equally positive about was mcgrat. We love it best. Yeah, I wonder how much of that is because I've been really listening to these as, the audio books, which are read by Nigel plainer, who plays Neil, the hippie and the young ones time the oars. But okay, well, there's a character. He's Neil. He's like this down a Hippie who is always cook creating lentils. Yeah, so I think mcgrant, being voiced by Neil from the...

...young ones, is doing a bit of heavy lifting there. But yeah, I'm responding to a character. I really like her in this book where she's she's on a mission of selfdiscovery and she's doing Yan Buddhism. I do like that. And she's thought she's doing a karate yeah, and you're the karate experts. I know if you had anything to say about her at all. I saw I went back through like she's doing for just don't that's it. She's trying to find herself and yeah, that's how people saw. That is happening, like you be martial arts. So nothing, nothing to say about the crowd. Sorry, I looked. I think it's cool. That does correct. Yeah, I think it's meant to be silly that she's doing this. Girl. That's the thing he's making fun of. The whole time I'm being like, oh, this silly vegetarian woman who's always picking on the others and saying they're not woken off, but actually she ends up being the most likable character for us. No, yes, I'd like to think that I'm the granny weather wax, but I'm definitely the Magrat. So, yeah, I think that I want to be them Grat, but maybe I'm just a nanny. We can both in the grant. You aspire to MC grat. Yeah, well, I'm Naney, just wandering around being like it's what's a sex object. Yeah, but when I'm like I'm probably the MC Grat, I'm like, I'm also just lying around me, like, ha ha, sounded like I did. Yes. So rodget doesn't approve of this journey of selfdiscovery. So, as Karen say observes in her essay on the witches in the guilty of literature collection, Margret's inability to change her appearance has as much to do with her or of using ability twice in the same sentence. Has as much to do with her inability to live up to her other feminist ideals of inner strength and self assurance as to her bodies innate incapacity to take on the glamor she desires and trying to live up to the ideals of modern femininity, she fails to see that she really ought to be herself rather than a pretty here where? Here it comes, similarch room. Okay, here we go. Part Two we're going to have to do. I did go on cinema roomes because it keeps coming up because postmonism. I also just said it them. I realize from editing that I've been saying similarcker rooms and similar cros but similarcer is the plural of Suker. So I just I know, don't write a city emails. And he also see this reflected in the the snake women. Yep, that, like their appearance has been changed, but they're stilled snakes inside. Right, Yep, that you can't change. Ye, it's all about what's inside. And this is again the stuff with when we were talking about not and the performative gender things and unseen academicals that Pretchett is about, or authenticity. He's thing, but he does not think a performance. As much as he's on board with this third way feminism, gender performity thing and as much as the witches like granny weather wax and nanny OGG are performing their witchcraft hats and their dress. He hit there's some kind of tension there where he recognizes the importance of of performance, but emphasizes in a authored authenticity that has to come from with him. He's all about self assurance, and I guess the difference is that granny weather wax is so self assured that she can manipulate that. Whereas mcgrat is trying to define herself from the outside in, granny and nanny are going from the inside out. Yeah, and and granny and nanny make it very difficult from a grant to get gain any space there to actually do it. Like she says, I'm going to go, I'm a fairy godmother now and I'm off and I'm going to fairy God mother and they say no, you're not, we will come with you, which is and then sort of keep projecting that self on to her as well, which I think makes an extra hard for her. Yeah, and look, I get it, because people who have like crystals and flowers and things, I'd be like you're insufferable and mean genuine and I hate you. But at the same time, like from a philosp philosophical standpoint, I'm like mcgret should be trying to shape herself through the way she expresses herself. Yeah, and I guess the point is that she hasn't found herself. You hadn't, and I think this comes good in the next book where she definitely finds herse out. That's all of the process. This one I can't. Yeah, yeah, I. and this leads towards some of the conservatism stuff with the older witches. That is definitely in there deliberately. I'm going to talk about later. But there there is a value judgment being placed on this discovery, whereas, yeah, the discovery is part of the process. And I guess that flicks with granny weatherwax who, as we'll see in lots of ladies Hmm, has always known who she is. M Okay, but if you don't know who you are, you to find yourself something. Cly and I blue hair for ye it was cool, but I have blue hair now if my hair wasn't falling out proxy diary longer. Fine. The and this, this difference in value judgment is drawn out in the comparisons to growny weatherwax and and the other older which is because mcgrat was trained by goody wemper. Makes you rest in peace, who was a research which and in the two thousand and four new discworld companion, which is co authored by a Pratchett and Stephen Briggs. They describe research witchcraft as a small but very valuable side of the craft through which many, which is of an inquiry in mine, have down the centuries experimented with thousands of different ingredients. And indeed, could he whimper,...

...died in an accident? I'll testing with her rooms. They could survive having its bristles fought out one way, one in mid air. So this is this is almost the the wizard model of witchcraft. I guess. Well, she's practicing that kind of yeah, magic. Yeah, we never came up with like a proper term for it because we were talking about goism, and but then we decide that's that's white and black. Yeah, magic, yes, which are the wizards are parodies of scientists. Yes, so it makes sense that they're doing that. So this is applying that to witchcraft. Yeah, whereas the other one is just the vibe I've always been the years, like practical versus theory. Who's where the wizards are very intill like the theory, and that informs the practice, their practical words, the which is just like they know the practical. They don't know why broomsticks to day up, but they know how to use the broomsticks for as the wizards are like draw circles on the ground. Keep the broomsticks up. Yeah, but then the other stuff doesn't work unless the circles keep him. I don't know, it's a weird one. Yeah, and then this kind of goes against the like curiosity sort of thinking, more like practice, saying no, it's bad to want to know why these things work. Yeah, yeah, mocking a definitely. Well, it's not the way. The way to understand is through practice rather than research. But I think as academicals who spent the last month researching, which is a road, I think again. This is another reason why I'm relating to Magar Abby. I would probably redrawn to the research witchcraft the same. Yeah, whereas there the granny weather wax, view is that it simply doesn't matter. Moreover, in the discworld, companion Pratchett and breaks claim that there is no discord concept of white and black magic. There is simply magic in whatever form, which may be used in whatever way these as decides. Suggesting there is any type of magic that is intrinsically good or bad would make as much sense to a discword wizard as suggesting that there is good and bad gravity, and I think that is a load of crap. I agree. I'm glad you said that. It's like, Oh, I've got to go out here. I mean you have the wizards have specific books locked up in the dungeon because the magic in them is too dangerous. Yeah, and and there's the idea that, like granny weather ax has to constantly like police herself from becoming bad. And that is about the way she uses it. But there's the idea that, like she said, yeah, you can't use magic to control people in Weird sisters. Yeah. Well, that is saying that magic that is used to control is bad. Yeah, and we see in this book the way she treats love. Yes, some little foot. She's bad using mirrors. Is that? Yeah, exactly, because it's in genuine but YEP. There's this emphasis on authenticity, and this is stated at the start of the novel during the meeting with the other witches, where granny describes mcgrad by saying that she's gone funny in the head, wanting to relate to herself. But then she wouldn't listen to Granny's explanation. That simplicity. Garlic was your mother, aremant or Minta Aromanto. Garlic was your granny, your Lande. Garlic is your aunt and your your your your me. I think I added too many yours in, but you get it. And then she sits back with a satisfied look of someone who is just solved everything anyone could ever want to know about identity. So there is some pushback where they're poking fun of granny that she can't are siculate this thing, and I'm sure all those names mean something that I'll have to go through and put learn in the transcript. But your next one is identity cogito. Oh Yeah, because this, this is I think. Therefore I am, this is, AH, yeah, but that's that's meant to be the the founding axiom of Western philosophy. This is the one provable truth that we can't deny. Therefore, everything follows from that, whereas granny's like she's finished there, yeah, I am done. I don't know. And so, yeah, this conflicts again with Margret's she's not allowed to reinvent herself. She is stuck being who she is. Yep, but if who you are is a female dwarf like Cherry little bottom. You're allowed to put on the stick and express yourself that way. But but, yeah, he's making fun of both. That isn't and he yeah, he's setting those ideas up which we now look at and I think he's definitely siding with granny weather waycas yes, that there is a tension going on. It's also obviously ties into the theme of stories. Mcgrat is trying to reshape herself and I her identity, by telling stories about herself. I am a karate person, I am this, which I look this way. I ate these things. Yeah, whereas granny saying you eat what you eat. But again, that sort of says, well, then you don't get the opportunity to change. Yeah, which I don't like and conflicts with the better grunning in the next book, I think. Okay, granny really goes on a strange character, doesn't you? Yeah, looks like she's a completely different character to what we saw in the first one. I've forgotten made I would say she's a completely different character, but there's definitely like she's more entrenched in her values. We and she's teaching ask. She's just very much like I am teaching you this and you're stilly if you don't listen to me. But there's none of this political kind of yeah, I mean, I was going to save this for next episode, Part Two, when we talk about their conservative thing. But the main difference, I think, is not so much the viewpoint is but in equal rights. She changed as her mind. Okay, and that is the thing where I said I like granny weather exilent. I like the granted. I like that Grannie is initially resistant to it, but then she realizes and goes yeah, no way, this is silly. You can be a wizard, whereas here she's going no, practical, really doubles down. You are, you are you and you are what you are. Yeah, and this is complicated again by well esque is a...

...wizard. Yes, the whole promise of the book. But maybe esque's more authentic because she's a wizard, because she is a wizard, whereas mcgrat'Sonois and she's trying to be something else. Do you know how all my Grat is? I would think she's mid S, late S. okay, something like this. Comparing they do say she's the youngest one in weird sisters. Yeah, so on the els, basically ages listed as thirty issue, which seems about right. Yeah, by the end of the series. I'm in the end of the end of the series. She's had a bunch of kids and things. That's in the shipherd's crown in the last one, but that's it's like twenty years after this book. So yeah, but sort of mid mid twenty seems about right. I was just thinking of the reason I was wondering. Guys, we're comparing it. Ask who's very assured of herself and just needs to find a way to be herself because she's young and doesn't have all of those insecurities you have put on her, whereas my grats not sure. So she's just trying. Are Everything? Yeah, but you have to try everything. You work it out. All right, see everyone. You can take that out. Do you want it to? Sorry, sorry, open. I also gonna ellas off. Another standout character in which is about is Greebar, and I was really surprised by how much I like to Greebury cotting great things. It's yeah, you're getting the joke. I don't put that together. Oh and I didn't read puts some birds. I'M gonna have to go back and read pussing birds all right, now, that's fine, because we got part two now. Do you je have more on that or just he is pushing both this pushing boats. Okay, yeah, I know you're right. Okay, I'm gonna between this and next episode, I'm goversly read it and just being like, but if you put a cat and boots, what would that actually how agree? Well, he's he's in the leather get up. So I'm assuming this boots involved, like what else you wearing in fairytale world. You don't make like like a deal of him wearing boots because you think he would write that cat that's dressed up as like a I think you're totally right. But now I'm thinking, like you know, given that the idea of stories and which is abroad, that there would be a thing where, like he needed to find a pair of boots because he knew that cats had to wear boots, because because everyone finds. Oh No, no, I'm imposing a modern view of pushing boots, because everyone now finds pushing boots like really cute. For episode two, we will visit this. Yeah, I'm going to read all the puss in boots fairy tales and come back because you're right, and if you're not right, then pretchre fucked up, but I don't think he did. No, that's a joke. I didn't get it. Well, I mean, I was into put some foods when I was a kid because he's a karate cat and I love cats and the love of Karani. Right now, you, MC Garnigan, I guess nanny's the cat one. Yeah, I was really surprised how much I liked greeber because I sort of remembered it being a bit of a cheap gag, like just this, like, oh, there's a guy and he's acting like a cat and cuts a mental yeah, I think this is a really good for trayal of other cat yeah, yes, so we like. Are you are? I was going to ask you. Is He byronic? I don't think so. You're kidding? No, no, this is your thesis, but we've really have to hash out definition of Byronick. He is a dangerous, violent, animalistic man in leather who is small, like a postmodernist playing around with the Byronic Kirow thing that I didn't know. I did he not feel it? When I was reading it, I wasn't going on this is a Baronic Cure. I was going this is a cat. So I dressed up as a man and a joke about it. I didn't really feel it a joke without unloading everything. Give us like the one or two centers pitch on what a Byronic hero is, which obviously comes from like being like Law Byron, all like Lord Byron's heroes. But what is the character type? Okay, s it up. By Roon Akira has some sort of secret pass which haunts them in their present. They often have a bunch of weird relationships with ladies that also haunt them. After Byron. Their characterized as oddly sexy bit and a dangerous way. That you should write that's Greebo right, yeah, addlest sexy in a danger US way. I didn't. I didn't find Grubo sexy, but he's described as describes in sex magnetism. But people can't resist. I didn't feel it. I see where you're coming from, but I didn't feel it and I don't know that pressure was going for it, but he definitely was, like that's the yeah, he's the irresistible. He has that charm about him when he goes to the ball, when he goes to the ball, maybe, yeah, okay, I'm thinking when he's heard and he's he's kicking off the balls off the counter. is a fully grown man with leather on and are not really sliding on account. That's when he's being a cat. Okay, when he goes to the ball maybe in and going to be bidantic about this in the Post Byron by Ronick Heiro away. Yes, I'll give it to you. Yeah, the brooding. When you say that the then he's the brooding, the past and everything. You're getting like very technically. Take what is broadly the Byron hero is. Well, then I just say sixty a dark here and he's a sexy pretty dude. Yeah, yes, it's a pretty do then I go dark hero, yeah, I which is obviously this is elsis our whole crisis. Yeah, so she's very particular, a very connective so in the intro to the first edition of the guilty of literature collection, Butler jokes that someone might attempt a queer reading of guebers leather clader appearance, and Stacy Haynes takes up this challenge in her...

...two thousand and five article, a pussy in black leather. Did you read this or Skim over it? I did, so that I skimmed over this and I was like okay, yeah, I'm not feeling it. It seemed a bit misguided and is based on very broad and stereotypical definitions of queerness. I've seen secondary criticism of this article saying like yet it's a bit misguided's the word I'm using. I would put in the exact quotes in the footnoth but, as she points out, he does attend the masquerade dressed like a pirate that had just readed a ship carrying black leather goods for the discerning customer, which we were saying. It's Bironic, but also just reminded me of to bias and arrested development. Who Seen arrested development are? He becomes a weather Daddy. OKAYSAPP for a pirate ship because he thinks he's going to a costume party, but he just wears S M gearing. is on a a boat full of gay pirates. So that was fun. Yeah, I had that image. I just had the image of puss in boots at a party. Can't believe that completely. When I saw pussy and black leather, I was like yeah, I'm right. And and Haynes admits that he doesn't think there as much deliberate symbolism of work on Pratchett's path. Yeah, but says there's a great deal of potential usefulness for engaging queerness through Grubo and images like this. But she is quick to distance herself from group I as well, claiming that she has never met anyone who identifies with the character who prechect describes as a fat, cunning, evil smelling multiple rapist, which is probably for the best. Right, yeah, almost, certainly. All. So that's a byronic hero, right. I fat, cutting, evil, smelling multiple rapists, maybe not sound bad. Cunning people smelling multiple rapist, cunning, it was. So don't always smell bad. At the boy Raybols, all right, yeah, in the twenty S, who was really vain. So he would have been into perfumes and shit. But Ironic Heroes, yeah, they would have smelt like adventure. Yeah, and sex and my other things. So grow very easy one. I think it's it's not the good and she says that Griebo is the only recurring character who challenges the restrictions of his own form by contravening his original biological identity. She dismisses angular the with the We'rewolf from the watch, whose lockline form is a completely natural function off her species. For what about the librarian who is turned into an arringutinger decides to stay in a rangating by the way, did I ever talk about grill when we were discussing that, because I think that comes from Spencer. Grill. Yeah, okay, so in Spencer there's a character that acts like cercy and is turning character, other characters into, you know, beasts to represent our you lost for beasts. B You're in hour, a hog or whatever. And there's grill, who gets turned into a bore or something, but when they turn them all back, he doesn't want to be turned back in. The line is let girl. We Grill and have his hoggish ways. And that's I meant to say that about the ranguting librarian, but it's relivant here again where. Will come back to that when I get to the wizard's book in three years as well. So, by the way, when you when you say Spencer, you mean and Spencers Very Queen. Yeah, that's the thing you do where you just say the name of the author, which I know what I mean. Grieber is also a familiar yep, he is nat yea, Nannie ox cat. So He's the party of the familiar. Now I tried to do some research into familiars because I'm interested in the animal angle on things. I'm but there really isn't much, which is kind of weird. Ronald Hutton has a chapter on, which is an animals, in his book the witch, a history of fear, which is which is probably the best place and most comprohensive place if you are interested to go in and sort of read on that. So he says that in England the term familiar became applied to an evil spirit that had taken animal shape, which is sort of the irony of group. Are there is he's gone the other way. Yep. But he says proper research into familiars didn't really begin until the early s and there have been no clearly defined schools of thought with steady adherents to have developed from this research. So no one really knows. It's just sort of this mush of animals are associated for witches in folklore. Right, yeah, because the old lady was only and she kept a cat, right, that's really it makes sense, yea. Nevertheless, Hutton contends that the discussions of its origins has thrown up so many possible worse explanations. She was lonely. Should have got a build our word stick. He says there's been so many possible explanations that it's unlikely that any major new primary sources for the early modern English belief in the witch is animal from the now remain to be discovered. Now that seems a little bit huboristic. I'm quint of his father. We couldn't possibly know. There's a jerk now, you wouldn't. There's a comedian. There's a comedian named Matt cushion from the UK who has a joke where he is in an airplane and the lady next to him is looking at the stuff and girls, oh, isn't an amazing how the these planes fly? How do you think they're do that? I guess we'll never know. He was like, well, you are, which is sort of the a slided our granny weather acts. Yeah, yeah, mcgrad will know, but granny would never will. Granny will just fly. But Yeah, that's hut and going. Now. Well, I guess there's nothing more to be discovered. I...

...couldn't find anything, but if anyone was going to find something, it'll probably be here, so fair enough. Possible sources he identifiers include Egyptian magicians, very help of spirit, Shaman's and the folk motif of the grateful animal I rescue cap yeah, yes, she's only in Britain, he says. They're the TROPE is mostly drawn from a common stock of late medieval and other European ideas about demons. Sir Pierre Delancre, who shares name with with Yeah Right, he said the French, which under guy, argue from a theological basis like King James's demonology, that such animals had to be shapeshifting devils, since the animals written to satanic rights could not be real beasts, as they usually flew through the sky. Yeah, I sort flying cat this morning. Really, I hope in your eyes. Yeah, no, they haven't involved that fire year, comer. Yeah, so impeccable logic there from the fourteen century French, which Hunter, and the myth that which is sealed packs with their familiars by feeding them their own blood from hidden teats, became yeah, well, that's like. That's actually it, though. They would have it like under their arms and things, because that was hid to hide their extra boobs. Is anyone where the third nipples, of which that's how you can tell if they float or if they have it. However, before that it was said that they merely made friends with the animals by feed in the bread and milk. So really we circle all the way back. You solved it. stread away the gratty weather access, like I think, and milk. Therefore I can. And therefore, yes, that's Hotton, which is a good article, except he does everyone does it, and I thought Harten was better than this. But he does throw in a ways in which witches. So that brings us to the witches themselves. I don't have too much this time on the history of I mean I have a lot the wizard of Oz and and sleeping beauty. That's going to come later, but I did want to know that the the acknowledgement of the broomstick symbolism, when Granny weatherwax says it was bad enough mcgratt telling me about Ma Poles and what's behind him, adding wistfully that she used to enjoy looking at me pot call off spring warning. Wait, well, we're here then, yes, looks the other ones. There was a lot more they talk about. Someone brings back a fertility idol which they call a sex object, and there's a lot about that, implying it to stil though, but I think the best bit was when nanny she goes words have sex in foreign parts. Yes, so nanny. Hopefully the words have sex. So feign pass again. This is a very funny book, right, I love yeah, we also get a reference to cecy. When any all remembers hearing about some old and chantress in history who lived on an island and turned ship wreck salers into pigs? And then, and then, well, you had the quote which I had met a Nerte off as well. A mcgret says that's a terrible thing to do. Yeah, which then then is seen by the others as whiney. It's Winey. Yeah, no, I just think it's it's interesting that it's mcgrat really thinking about like witchcraft, in the history of witchcraft and doing the thing that Grannie doesn't do, you know, like you're talking about before. She's like she's thinking it's actually a value. Yeah, it's like would we do that, though, and then they're like, but then it well, then many igs, like yeah, I just want to trap a hundred sailors on my island. Yeah, very where nanny. Ok, I think I'm just mcgrat yeah, but this, this book's not so much about whitches per se as very godmothers in the disco companion. Fairy God mothers are officially defined by Pratchett and Briggs as a specialized form of which with particular responsibility for the life of one individual or a group of individuals. Okay, they are which with a charge, I guess, in the folklore of discworld. Pratchett and Jacqueline Simpson, who's a folklorist, also like in them to the southern European myth of the supernatural woman who bestowed wishes and gifts upon newborn babies, explaining that, although are more rarely referred to as ladies from outside or ladies who must not be named, they were a kind of fairy that would arrive on the third night after the birth and there were always three of them. HMM, yeahhhm. I mean these are the ones we were talking about from the Celtic myths and Macbeth and stuff last yeah, and they would also be stow gifts upon the child and exchange for Boutius offerings of food, which we get a bit of that in this would group with nanny ran. Yeah, she demands ends food everywhere they go. Yeah, so we already had some engagement with the idea of fairy godmothers in weird sisters, with the witch's pose as John Tom's fairy grandmother's, which is notably is it Magart's suggestion she's the one who becomes the yeah, yeah, yeah, there the original fairy Godmother, in which is abroad, is desiderata hollow, and we talked about her naming a bit last episode. As LAYA ybot notes, in the annotated Pratchett, Desidira, literally translated, means things missing and felt to be needed. So sort of wishing. Hmmm, s dissider at a hollow is hollow wishes. Hm. But yeah, this again. I think this lens some weight to my thing where I'm trying to work out what what was her name in the last book, the Tariff Lady, Alice Ellis to marriage. Yeah, the idea that, like her...

...name, has to meet some S. that's still the best theory I've got. But yeah, just pointing out that project is naming these witches. He's comment eating their names, connoting, connotator, connecting canting. So are in her article trapped fairytale in Pratchett and lackey, in the two thousand and fifteen gender form specially true on Pratchett's works. Or do Taylor compares, which is abroad, with Mercedes, like he's two thousand and four novel, the Fairy Godmother, which is a reinterpretation of Cinderella where the Cinderella analog becomes the apprentice to a fairy godmother and has to make a douchebag prints into a decent person. HMM, yeah, that sounds familiar. Yeah, so if you ever heard of this book for nine and I don't really do a lot of room post modern fairytales. No, nearly did. I N take the last month. Yeah, teach the fairy tale. You know, I could teach very you're ready. Yeah, but I'm too qualified. So they weren't playing. HMM. Yeah, that's a real thing, I know. But yeah, there's a thing in the book called the tradition, which forces people to act as they would in fairy tales and stories, which becomes harder to break in time as it's repeated. Right. So, yeah, this is this is which is a broad right. Yeah, Taylor doesn't really argue anything in this article. He's like that to say yeah, pretty much. I mean I don't want to have a golder, but I didn't really. Yeah, they didn't seem to be a through line other than that. Both of them use parody to subvert fairy tale, and it's like again, that that's the first line of their say, not the end. Yeah, that's sort of a given. She's still there, the goaty weather wax. Yeah. So, yeah, where does this idea of the fairy godmother come from, and what do they come from? Josh, Hey, so it's so I'll just alley oop that one. Yeah, well, I was actually pretty surprised that very godmothers don't actually appear in Grimm's fairy tales. I found that surprising. Sort of your girl. Yeah, I mean there might be one somewhere now or one. Double check them. Okay. Well, if they do appear, they're not prominent. They come instead from the seventeen century French fairy tales of Madame Donoy and Charles Proor, yeah, which he's her name. I've heard of because he's had Disney movies. HMM. Yeah, Dolnoy is the originator of the term fairy tales. So no one really knows who she is. That's rather a significant contribution to society. That's why, okay, don't know, is the originator of the term fairy tales and fairy godmothers are featured in her story. Is the Blue Bird, the white door, the beauty with the golden hair. So so that's a recus as a goldilocks. Yeah, and finite send on or cunning cinders. This is a Cinderella, a story. There's a velvet slipper and a magical chest of clothes and do it. Yeah, this is where some of these ideas are coming from. But Marine or want to argues in her inus nineteen ninety four book, the beast and the blond, not upon that, not a se the beast in the blind, that fairy tale writers often figured themselves in the tales they wrote as their fairy godmother's right, which kind of makes sense, right, if the fairy godmother is meant to be the guide. MM So, sir, I don't know. Just thought it was an interesting point. MMM. It's also in another interesting connection to the Lord of the Rings, where you have the gold character who shows up and they wack him on the here other or yeah, this is the I need a word for this. Where were you? We're going to come up with a word for the like. What is the quote from a book that every saw the scene that every single article talks about? It's an article like we had the granny defining which in which the magic vehicle rights the when shall we three meet again? From which is every article that talks about which is abroad. I mean, they talked about the store or shape of stories cascading down the mountain, but they talk about the gold scene for no reason. Huh. None of them say anything about it, right. They're just like yeah, and then there's a reference to Golmn as well fairy tales and Lord of the Rings, but they always like go on a length about the GOLM scene without making a point about it. And when I was reading it, I just skipped over them. Yeah, go on, okay. But I found a nineteen ninety seven masters thesis on the use of formulas in Terry Practice discworld series, which is by not on nuts. And who is not a discworld character? Hated him like hell, yeah, HMM, yeah, so not nuts. And who actually makes a point about this? That I thought was really insightful, and I didn't say this anywhere else. He says that the depiction of the Godmother's magic wand, in my Grad's final disposal of it in the swamp, is reminiscent of the destruction off sound's ruling ring in the last book of token's Lord of the Rings. Out of that one I saw when I saw it, when I read her chap, and I'm like hopefully quoted. So nothing acknowledges that the parallels that sort of a right, throwing a wander the swamp throwing a ring in a volcano. But what makes it a probable comparison, and probably an intended one, is the use of Golm earlier. Yeah, okay, and this is brilliant, good argument. Yeah, everyone else points to the Golm camera without making anything of it, just like whereas nuts and observes that the use of this reference to reference to Golm reinforces the theme about the corrupting influence of power by linking the comparatively weak wand with an instrument of much greater power that proses a much greater threat. So actually talking about how golmn functions in the story, and then when nanny box him on the head, that's not just a rejection of fantasy. Yes, I don't think that's what practice. IMPRECHAL loves fantasy's playing...

...around in it. It's a rejection of the lust for power. Like the corrupted dude, she goes bare done. Yeah, so it was really annoying me reading all these people talking about Golm for no reason and I was like, Nutson, you've done it. So, of course, as with all of Pratchett's which is novels, what which is Bros really about? Is that our of stories, the power of love. Jesus, it's not the new mortal kombat movie, is it a new issue grow book, M sorry, in which is abroad, and this is the other bit that everyone says in their articles. Project explains that story is very existence. Overlays a faint but insistent pattern on the chaos that is history. Stories etch groves deep enough for people to follow, in the same way the water follows certain paths down a mountain side. It's it's a pretty great yes, it's a messy for. It's Amay for, is it meady? For there? And this contrast with the villain on the book, any weather access sister Leith, who will talk more in depth about in part two, who tries to force the actual world into the patterns that are so neatly drawn in fiction, which is treated as a violation of the natural order. Right, MMM. Except discord runs on Narrativiam. Yeah, so I'm not sure what's going on here. So, yeah, it's not properly defined until the first sience of discord novel, which comes in one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. But it's still present. Right, you've got stuff like in the early books them turning the so that the wind because one in a hundred chances work nine times out of ten, or whatever the joke is. And then the whole premise of discworld is that it runs on story logic. Yes, so Willis is not to find it in this. Well, Luke is not defined the natural order. She is reinforcing the natural order. Where you done that, Pratchett? And we yeah, we get a bit of this the next novel as well, in lots of ladies, where there's like conflicts between folklore and belief and stuff that does seem out of step with the broad idea of, yeah, the narrative causality of discord itself. What's he doing? Well, he's using them to subvert it. And Perk at them. But yeah, I don't know the he's like a mad scientist. Sometimes he's just like tapping away at these keyboard. So yeah, maybe we'll get into that a bit more. Okay, in parts when we want, we really go in on lith but the particular stories that he is sitting sights on in which is abroad, our fairy tales, and we're going to examine some of those now. So yeah, I think the way we're dividing the episodes up, as I said at the top, is this is everything on the waiter January and then next episode is genuine and everything after Oh, my favorite cannon furs record, how it's shark. So here we're going to talk about the fairy tales that they run into on the road to genuine. That is, sleeping beauty, red riding hood list of ours. There's also mentions of stuff like ruffle stiltskin and, yeah, locks and things. So we're going to talk about them. And then the genuine fairy tales that we're genuine. Huh Hmm. Well, I just got that. That's delivered, isn't it could be. Yeah, no, it is. It's all about breaking the marriages. That's called an epiphany, genuine seal. The the fairy tales and the second part that we're talk about it things like Cinderella, and that's the big one. Snow, why the Frog Prince, which actually have a crazy is a map to say out, given that death a throwaway line in the book, and there's another one in there as well. He's undermining these these fairy tales through parody. Like we said, he was doing the Shakespearean which is abroad, but he's particularly taking aim at the lessons that these fairy tales are imparting and the ways they're suggesting that people should behave. Hm. So Jack Sips, who's your Gur of Fairytale Studies and is specializes in fairytale revisions, postmonism, sort of this s and n s error. He says. Almost all critics agree that educated writers of Literary Fairy Tales purposely appropriated the oral folk tale and converted it into a type of literary discourse about Moore's values and manners, so that children would become civilized according to the social code of that time. So yeah, let's just saying that fairy tales are as much as they're being repeated, they're also being rewritten. MMM. So it's interesting what morals are carried through and how how those models adapt, which will look at a bit more. And as the postmodern fairytale scholar Kevin Paul Smith explains, this often required an ideological adaptation on behalf of the literary transcribers from concerns of the real presentry, from whom the tales come, to those of the bushwire parents anxious to raise moral children. Yeah, so he sites Dion purkisses example of how the witch's house in Hanselin Gretel was originally made from bread rather than Gingerbread, as we discussed in the last episode, and how the tale therefore shifted from being about real anxiety about famine to middle class concerns about greediness children, right. Yeah, so it's no longer about don't feed your kids because you won't have enough to eat. It's now don't feed kids because they'll get fat and be little shits. MMM. And Smith conducts a particular examination of which is abroad, in his chapter on Terry Pratchett's fairytale versions in his two thousand and seven book, the Postmon Fairytale. MMM, he notes the projects use fairytale is similar to that of feminist revises...

...in that his revisions highlight the patriarchal assumptions underlying the classical fairytale and change the stories in order to make them more equitable, with which is abroad, specifically showing how, Oh, Hey, curious, specifically showing how the fairytale could be a negative force used to make people conform to societal rules. We would agree with that. Yeah, we would, and this is what he's talking about with the feminist revises. This was a trend in the late s eight using fairytales for feminist yeah, I mean the big example of that is Angela Carda's the bloody chamber, which we'll talk about more next episode with we're beer. That's the other fairy tale that I talk about next episode. Yeah, there's lots of examples of these throughout the s and he's saying that Pratchett sort of follows in that tradition and he identifies eight ways fairy tales operate intertextually within mass produced fiction, suggesting that projects use of fairytales, in which is abroad, is primarily an example of element five revision. This is very bloom and because revision is one really of blooms, weird Greek terms. Yeah, the categories he divides them up into are authorized. This is explicit references to a fairy tale of the title, when you say, Hey, this is sleeping beauty mm Ritali, which is an implicit reference, but that's something where it's a like the reading the bloody chamber. Okay, is an example that, where it's not saying this is blue beard, but it's telling you it's blue beard through all its references. Incorporation, which is when a story has a fairytale within it. You also have allusion, which is just other thing to a fairytale at market out. What does that a lot. So yeah, then you got revision, which is what he's talking about with, which is abroad, and the feminist revisions, which is taking a tale and rewriting it, fabulation, which is crafting an original fairytale. Hmmm, so I guess still playing around with those tropes and things. He does give examples of all these, I did not write them down. There's metafictional discussions of fairy tales, is category seven and the last category is an architectural or chronatopic fairy tale setting. So it might not be aff see take on whatever yeah, something like that. We sitting it in a fairytale land. So, I mean I was a pruchts using a blend of all of these. HMM. And I think revision has like four different subsections. Yeah, that he talks about. And Yeah, so he says primarily, like he uses all these were primarily pruche is revising fairy tales, rewriting them to you know, modern standards for modern standards and and different ideas, and also metafiction, which is where, you know, have the which is literally commenting on this. Is a fairy tale. This is how stories work. Yep, to clarify that a bit. Smith defines revision as any new version of a fairy tale, whether it's a Disney adaptation or a postman rewriting the appeals designs this definition. Who He refers to? The Almighty Oeed, which defines revision as looking at something carefully over with a view to improving or correcting it, to re examine in order to approve or a manage, since we know what. Yeah, very gloom man his literary theory of influence. Yeah, that's a pretty, you know, standard definition of revising, but there's an emphasis on correcting there and zips adds that, as a result of transform values, the revised classical fairytale seeks to alter the riders view of traditional patterns, images and codes. This does not mean that all revised classical fairytales are improvements or progressive, however, the premise of a revision is that there is something wrong with the original work that needs changing for the better. Right. Why revise it if the original still good? Yep, to make money. So that's that's revision. As for Metafiction, Smith defines Meta fictional intertextuality as any instance when a fairytale is commented upon or when the fairy tale is analyzed in the critical way within a text. That's Mata fictional. Yeah, it's Mata Fictional. I think that Pretchett also uses prominent elements of element three incorporation. MMM, so that's when the fairy tales explicitly referred to in a text. I mean, I guess he doesn't say this is sleeping beauty, but he may as well. Their illusions, but the story of the fairy tales themselves are in the book. It's not just referencing all this is like sleeping beauty. Sleeping beauty happens within with systems, right, and I think it applies because which is abroad is its own story rather than a revised fairy tale itself. So this is also yeah, this is also fabulation, right, crafting your own fairy tale, which is a broad it self, is a moralizing fairy tale. Yeah, yeah, that's good. There's also, and perhaps most pressingly, the pattern recognition subset of revision, right, which is where the illusion is not so much to the content of fairy tales but they're narrow structure. So this is stuff like in trek we have once upon the time and they lived happily ever after, which which is abroad doesn't do so much, mostly because it go runs in the opposite direction. Yeah, I mean this is what which is abroad is grappling with. Yeah, so we're visit that element a bit more in the next episode, I think, and Smith does say that revision incorporates structural similarities as well. So it's not like he's overlooking these things, but I wanted to emphasize them a bit. So, with this in mind, let's turn to some of the Fairy Tales Pratchett metafictionally revises in which is a broad. So the primary source for the Fairy Tales, and perhaps the most famous and influential fairytale authors are the brothers grim, who collected and edited versions of Gem and Fairy Tales for children. Yeah, they were doing this from...

...twelve to eighteen. Fifty Seven Iron Age. Yeah, as with well, well, well, yeah, I still don't know how to say that. It's just well, but if I just say well, you don't think it's well, wow, that is. Yeah. So, as with well, there is a discworld and aalog for the brother's groom, thankfully not an anachronistic one this time, in the form of the sisters grim, one am, which is more fun. Yeah, who are agonizer and a viscera and as a groom and a Viscera, a groom who wrote Real Fairy Tales with lots of blood and bones and bats and rats in the that's from the amazing Maurice. One of the main characters in the amazing worries is the great niece of the sisters grim. We get tone about four years and a copy of their grim fairy tales is also central to the plot. Off The of time, MMM, MMM, and both amazing rice and the time coming out in two thousand and one. So He's obviously got these fairy tales again on the brain. Interesting. It's kind of ironic that, yeah, they're emphasized as the, you know, the real fairy tales with lots of bloods and barons of bats and rats. The GRIMM's fairy tales are very tame and are actually the cleaned up versions of the only originals. Yeah, yeah, they have the reputation for being darker than the Disney versions, but they themselves are cleaned up version. Yeah, there's definitely Antonia Lawless, whose thesis we discussed in the Weird Sisters episode on Weird Sisters and wild women are she observes that the GRIMM's collections contain several tales featuring, which is as primary antagonists, and their tales, she says, constructor which character made up of various wicked female archetypes, such as the wicked stepmother, the Woodland Hag and the Diabolical Tinterest who offers forbidden knowledge, which is often sexual. Maples law saw so argues that the transition of the fairy tale, which from rule auntie mother, as we discussed last episode two wicked stepmother, was part of this effort to conform to the needs of the Nineteen Century Urban Bucheisi. Right, right. However, she also claims that the high rates of death and childbirth for early modern rural women and the usual quick remarriage of their widow is meant that the presence of the stepmother in the rural home was more of an exception. That's so, she's making artament the pressing all stepmothers are a common feature because of us. So yeah, but then she's also saying this, that mother was an update once it moved out of the rural thing. So there seems to be a contradiction there. I'm not sure which one it is. Okay. Interestingly, as Marina's harder notes in her in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven book, the hard facts of the GRIMM's fairy tales, do you want to do anything with that? The hard facts? No, leave alone. Yet Tata notes that, in contrast to the corruption of language associated with Shakespeare's weird sisters, the grimms which is almost never cast verbal spells or conjurations. So then they're not doing this language thing that we were talking about in Macbeth, they're just me. Yeah, lawis also points out. Ruth Be Bottingheimer MMM. Her thousand nineteen eighty seven analysis of the moral and social vision of the GRIMM's tales were in she observes that the Grimm's good women overwhelmingly refrain from speech and only speak in response to male characters, and doesn't pass the big builtest. No, sure they sure do not. I mean that's a pretty thorough analysie's going on there. She also identifies answered as the most commonly applied to the speech of good female characters. Yeah, how do you like? That's I don't, Josh. I don't like the contact that this is. This is the cold of scholarship, like, Oh, this one's good scholarship. You went through Canada all. The answer's not nice control. This is a no, this is not any song. She leaving. She really counted. Yeah, you kind of even get a know you, bottom chimer, bottom Chima. Yeah, and said I'll spoke. Is Reserved to witches and other wicked women. So I don't know of how deliberate that is. I imagine that's like an implicit sort of yeah, subliminal. So there's this idea that if a woman is assert if she's evil and you must cut out her tongue. Yeah, and Bun. Huh. Yeah, our law says. This just goes to show how the grim's editing took more and more speech out of the Maules of good women and put in the mouths of evil ones, leaving alone the only thing that took a having said that, the Fairy Tales Pratchett plays with his witches abroad don't actually feature that many witches. Yeah, and he doesn't really focus on the witches. In the ones that do. He's focusing on the moral implications of the stitches response to them. Yeah, rather than the specifical sectical problem, the specific portrayal, which is like he did in weird sisters. MMM. So the first story they run into on the way to genuine is one that includes a witch. It's one that I have a lot to say about, and that's sleeping beauty, I which project already did in weird sisters. It was one of my favorite parts. Right, they're putting the king of sleep, HMM, and that actually engaged with the witches they're here. It's about the implications of sleeping beauty herself and the female readers that she represents. M So the first thing I want to talk about sleeping beauty is the power of true love leaves awful taste in my mouth. Into true love. I think it's Nice, fun joking, but I won't. HMM,...

I'll over right on. Yeah, you go for okay, yeah, g any weather acts. Criticize the story, saying cutting your way through a bit of Bramble is how you can tell he's going to be a good husband, is it? Yeah, no, Jesus, a right good wood cover. So mad and I was talking out to go to the physio because I started splitting it again. So I'm I'm not made the card. I'm out dumed Bachel of it. You're in a long term relationship. For the listeners, sorry I'm not available. We had so many requests that I thought I should. You know, it's understandable. No one signed up to the Patriar, but they have signed up to my Ami. You're in the sense. I was going there, all right. So we've established that being able to hack your way through shit isn't good hold, have we? Because yes, we ye, she's right. Go Up. Well, Smith reflects any weather access concerns. Wondering if sleeping beauties rescue our will resemble the genteel prince who wakes the heroine with a kiss in the Greens? Or will it be the prince who rapes the sleeping beauty while she's still crematose in the older body of version of the tail? No, this is good. What the girl those? No, just to finish that sentence, on to the older body of version of the tail, Soul Luna Italia in Basil's Pentamoroni, nice and Pintama. No, I don't think I said that monthly at all. Fine, you're not frank. I'm pretty sure it doesn't run with Maccaroni, but here we are. This brings us to the first of two podcast I listened to you in preparation for this. The other one was the Disney princess death battle, which was fast time. I cut that out. That's like twenty minutes of our speaking, like is no our princess. But that was the Disney story origins podcast, which is hosted by a guy named Paul J Hale, who compares Disney adaptations, are very tales, to their source material. Sounds Fun. It's a pretty good podcast. I don't love his sense of humor. Yeah, it's very thorough. It's sort of service level, but he does a good job. But in the sleeping beauty episode. Hey, igi's the sleeping beauty does actually represent true love. His argument is based on pros version from one thousand six, hundred and ninety seven, which is called the sleeping beauty in the wood. Not that the rape Mac or anyone there. The princess is not working by a kiss. MMM, but she awakes naturally just because the curse has ended. Okay, the prince doesn't actually wake you up. Yeah, so he doesn't touch her at all. MMM, my favorite so far. Yeah, and that coincides with the prince coming to rescue her, but she's already awake when he gets there, and then they fall in love. Well, okay, so I'll read that. I've got the whole. Alice read. Shall I read? Says Alice read. Does it? Yeah, yeah, do you want to read this big paraph? Since the end of the inchantment had come, the princess woke up and, gazing at him with greater tenderness in her eyes than might have seen proper at a first meeting, she said, is that you, my prince? What a long time you have kept me waiting. Delighted at these words and still more by the tone in which she said them. The prince did not know how to express his gratitude and joy, but he told her that he had loved her more than himself. That's nice. Although what he said was badly expressed, it pleased her all the more. The greatest love is the least eloquent of the two of them. She was the less tongue tied, which is not surprising, since she had had the time to think of what she would say. They spend four hours talking to each other and still had not said the half of what they wanted. That I will allow. Right. So they do a little meet cute. Yeah, they don't even kiss, just like hang out and meet each other and I'm like, oh well, that's yeah. So this is the guy's argument. You're like no, it's like no, actually, if you read it. Okay, this I go with. MMM. After this, they also have supper together, you know, whole lined with mirrors hot. Yeah, I just bring that up because of Lilis Pinschon for reflective surfaces, which will get to in part two, for who attaches explicit moral explanations to all of his tales. Says that the moral of sleeping beauty is for girls to wait a while so that they may wed a loving husband, handsome, rich and kind, and that lovers lose nothing if they wait and tie and not of marriage late. Yep. But also, why do girls have to wait a while? I can't work. Can't it be girls and guys? Yes, this is this is the standards of their time and the major acquis. And of course, here marriage is code for sex. Yeah, at the same time, pro says, another moral is to stay in bed, adding a hundred years asleep. You will never find such patience in a girl today. See, I read that in the notes and just like he does some slut chatting right. Oh Yeah, you can read in the first one where it's like, Oh, you know, wait for your true love and everything. But yeah, this is girls, these things. Yeah, God laps also says of Hero Sleeping Beauty, that the unnamed princess, being endowed with beauty, the temper of an angel, grace, the ability to dance perfectly, the voice of a nightingale and Music Keldy by her fairy godmother's is bread to become the ideal aristocratic lady. She's expected to be passive and patient for a hundred years until a prince rescues and resuscitates her, with her docility and self abandonment being rewarded in the end when the prince returns to set things right. So even though he's not kissing her or whatever, taking her, she's not yet. She's waiting for the princess,...

...is the answer. Thing. She doesn't get to be her own and active. Yeah, but no agency. And this actually brings back in the Disney Princess deathmatch thing where when they rent all the princesses, sleeping beauty was dead last because she literally does nothing for the entire Verte. Sorry, it's honestly goals. But so that's true. Famous. It's like named after her. Well, yes, so we could say she won in away anyway. Well, the other thing, well, why, we talked about the name. I did mention before that the GRIMM's fairy tale version is called Brian rose. HMM, that's the name Prix of finger on the road. But there's that. It's also just her name is briar rose. She's not a right that's brought in, you know. But also is it because the castle is covered by Briar? MMM, so briar rose over the castle, I mean. And these are folk tales that are transmitted orally, where things are used as a MNEMONIC devices, so like they're in just the name of the story you have. Okay, what's my character's name? What happens to her, and then what happens all in all in one yeah, it's nice. Yeah, that's true. Love, more personally to which is abroad, is the portrayal of witches, and Hale also has an interesting theory about the witching sleeping beauty as well. He speculates that Maleficent, as she's called in the Disney version, might be a Cambion. Now, do you know what a can be in nurse? Okay, don't use that tone with me. Well, I was. This is one of those things where I was getting ready for you to be like, not only do I know what I can be, is I wrote the book on can and if I wanted a chat because I want sick names, it can be. So can't well, the example Hayo gives is caliban from the tempers. Yea, let's what is it? A Canon is a half human, half devil hybrid. Oh, how did I not know that exactly? That's why I was getting ready for you to ask me. Hmm, you did gentlous style and the example Hayo gives is caliban from Shakespeare's tempers, Yep, who was the son of the African which cigarettes. Yeah, so we also got the fear of racial misagination going on here. So your relation to the hawks of things and academicals. Another famous campion is the archetypal wizard Merlin, true from, yeah, Theian legends, who we talked a bit about on the who rights podcast, but some older versions even cast him as the antichrist. Makes me happy to know. Right, good, including the anonymous fourteen century French romance the purse forest, which contains the earliest known version of the sleeping beauty tail. So there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is all stuff I hal digs up on his podcast. So this is an original stuff here. But yeah, we'll talk a bit more about sleeping beauty's origins in the second but to finish up on campion's, their creation is detailed in the Malias. More for a car who argues that demons cannot reproduce because they like souls, and how God, and this is dalves and the ox thing again, and I only God has the power of creation, with humans, animals being given permission and because they are metaphysical and can't interact with humans or the physical world. They can't exist, but the Bible says they this, so therefore they do exist. So he spends a lot of pages that I read, all of trying to logically justify the existence of demons and canyons, and the best he comes up with is that demons can't get pregnant or reproduce, but they can turn into incubuses, sucumuses, which is the female one. Yeah, Sucky, this is he this is sucky Muss and have sex with men and take their sperm, and then I'll they can't reproduce, but they can corrupt the sperm while it's inside them. Again, this is the creation versus coruption there. And then they turn into ingibusses and have sex with a way to a pregnant her with the demon sperm. It's a lot of work, it seems like. I'll just reproduction right. Also, to bring it back to Pretchitt I was looking through some of these short fiction. He has a tale called what's called it's like incubust or something, and it's bad enough of us that has a premature ejaculation exact to this man. The think of it showed off at his life. The ladies like well, are we could get ready. He's like sorry, this never happens. It's like, Oh God, Paige, story finishes from thank you, USS Incuba. Yeah, HMM. So, yeah, although they can't reproduce themselves, they transfer to the women. Know that, and that's where we get changed things and canons from yea, according to the malist move for Karam. Yeah, I wor't read through all this and was going to go into more detail, but it was too much. I pulled the recorder. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, now this is somewhat irrelevant, since the music in the Disney version all comes from the Tchikovsky balley from one thousand eight, hundred and eighty nine, whether which is an evil fairy named Caribous, whose name is taken from a similar character in Dolinoi's tale, the Princess Mary bossom. HMM. So he gets rid of this sort of devil image. But the Disney version, the most people are familiar with these days. I mean the Disney versions are the sort of canonic or modern ones, right, HMM, mostly derived from Peros telling. HMM. And in the Disney film maleficent is described explicitly as a wicked witch. Right, although, as I'm discovering from reading all this stuff, which is not so much your body, your granny weather, actually of me, which is an occupation. HMM, like a fairy can be a witch, a Cambion can be a witch,...

...which is a magic user. So it's not like there is a race of which is yeah, so she's still a fair because part two of all efficent that I watched and then turned off, they do describe her as a powerful fee. So she's a fairy canonically in Disney, but in the groom's version the spell is cast by a wise woman who wanted to get revenge for not having been invited to sleeping beauty's breathday party. Come I get I mean this happens in the Disney pasion. They vital the reet. So this happens in all the versions, but there's never any bitch will impros version, all the fairies in the country are invited to be godmother's for the little princess, and it says except for an aged fairy who had not been invited because for more than fifty is she had never left the towel she lived in, so that she was believed to be dead. So this is mature women being discriminated against by society. Ready, it's the red running hook. Yeah, she's a board bye. But it's also that is a justification. We haven't seen this lady in a hundred years, she's probably dead. We don't need to invite her, whereas in all the other versions they just don't invite her, which sort of does give you the the maleficent flip around where it's like, yeah, I'd be pissed her. Look every other fairy. Yeah, yeah, so it's not really clear you know exactly what they, the witches, are in these fairy tales and it changes around all the time. But as Smith observes, of Pratchett's conflation of whiches and fairy godmother's in which is abroad, because again, maleficent is a fairy godmother, she's a which, he's a fairy outafair than mother. This allows the reader to see how, whichever way one looks at it, a malevolent presence in these fairy tales is always an old woman, whether but they're a fairy, a which or it doesn't matter what they are, they are always an old lady. So Hmm, yes, Oh, yes, so I said I wanted to talk a little bit about the history of sleeping beauty. Yeah, I thought this would be a particular interest to you, plus it's just fucking cool. So, as we said, the earliest known version of the story comes from the purse forest, which was composed between thirteen thirty one, thirteen forty four, that's all, and it was first published in garb our stud bus steals sixteen thirty four collection the Pentamerone as the Mac or anyone, and then popularized by pro MMM. It's French fairy tale which the grimms usually would have emitted from their collection of German Tales. Right, so that their justification for including a version of sleeping beauty in the grim's fairy tales is a loose connection to the norse Germanic legend of Brown Hilda, wippears in the thirteen century Germanic epic poem Nibble, Go and hide and the late Icelandic of Oolsunga Saga Fun. Yeah, so, Brun Hilda, do you know Brown Hilda now, because you've redacted the Pie, I have that that's what because I don't know so well. Run Hilda is a Valkyrie who was awakened by the hero cigard, after he slays a dragon and rides to the top of a mountain, where he finds a sleeping run hilder surrounded by a tower of shields that are lit on fire and she's chained down. She's got armor on. The armor is like a prison here. Cuts the armor off her rhymes with her skin. So he cuts the armor away from her skin and freezer, which is like way cooler than a kiss. Yeah, that's Nice, right. And this is this is a curse that's been put upon her by Odin after she refused to marry. I'm not sure if it's Mary own. I think it's just Mary in general. Yep, so she's you know, she's a strong, independent woman. There's no real romance. cigard leaves her and then brings his friend King Gunner or Gintha to marry her. He's so rather being like I've rescued a princies, like I'm just climbing up this mountain, found a sick tower shield, fought my way through color this hour. I it was a hot chick. I'm like, I've got my brow. He's the king. I gotta get him, you guys. Yeah, HMM. So he comes back and she's still living on the mountain surrounded by the wall of flame, and said she will only marry the man who can ride through the flame. Then just burst. It's actually a very good flad. Yeah, I like her. That's how I see adding. Right, he rose through the fire whilst think I'm sitting there, Gunn, come on through the fine bring a fire. But yeah, and Gunna, King Gunna, he can't do it. So cigard shape shifts into him and he's able to do it as gonna, and he marries her. That seems like just great. What it is, but he doesn't consummate the marriage. Ironically, given the fellow imagery, he puts a sword in between them so they can't have sex. I've heard of that, right. Yeah, and then he switches places back. So now it's the real good. And then later they reveal the ruse and she's like hey, that's dirty. So now you guys got a fight side. Which one of you is the best? Actually rush be we he's like killy telly killing each other. Well, so good wins the fight by cigar being the hero, by the whole time going wins the fight. But Brown Hilda is a shame that she married the lesser hero. So she kills herself, her body at ciguards a bird together and I maybe they had started off so cool and ended up so bad. Oh, it's a tragedy, right, but she had female agency in that. It was gone. But I like the idea that she killed herself rather than marry a piss weak king and go to be a Bel purye heaven with a real hero. Is a better ending if you know that you're going to heaven and be Valcur in heaven. Yeah, all right, I'm she didn't jump it on the fire now rather than having to marry the DICKHEAD. That happy ending. You know, she married the king. Yeah, okay. So one of Myney here is there. Is there a connection to Brittamore? HMM, no, I'm not really sorry. Really.

Yeah, just like that. UKA. What's the thing? The why I'm act by mock Tudi. Yeah, Um, it's that is like no, no, no, I wish. Yeah, no, and there's obviously something going on with valkyries and things, but nothing specific. Okay, to refresh the listeners, Brittamle was the MN is the cool protagonist in book three of them, as is the fairy quet. Yeah, she's she's the way our lady rather around hits people with a stick. I love it. Yeah, no, stick is meant to represent the fact that, like, she's got a Dick, like and that, and that's her masculine energy that she has. She dongs people. Yeah, don't. I picked it for a reason. Oh yeah, just just another cool thing is that, in prose version, good fairy who puts out asleep to save her life after she pricks heting. I think I'm assuming people are familiar with the story of sleeping beauty, but she is given the news instantly that Briar Roses has pricked herself and fall asleep by a dwarf with seven league boots and and she shows up an hour later in a chart of fire drawn by dractions. Yeah, sir, way cooler than the Disney versions. And Disney. I did the maths on the seven league boots and fair to travel twelvezero leagues instantly would mean that he'd have to travel between a quarter and a fifth of the speed of light. I don't think it's worth going into but I don't think they had their geography down. Pat Yep. Well, even around trip in an hour means the domor from the chariot must have been traveling an average of one hundred thirty, three thousand, three hundred forty four kilometers an hour. Yeah, so these tales are not scientifically rigorous. Hmm, what if you got to say instantly when I was called instant boots? Seven league boots puts a value want to have to be the guy. Excuse me. Yeah, last thing. We're at the end of the sleeping beauty section. This is what a section I've called sleeping beauty. Surprise. Was the surprise? No, no, there's a whole section called sleeping beauty. Surprise, I say a whole section. Under night words, we're going to get through this very quickly. So if I can pull at his name, not mcgary, but who's the other guy? WHO's The guy? Colombo? fucking pulling Colombo for a second. Say just one more thing about sleeping beauty and prose version. The prince refused to marry sleeping beauty and keeps their relationship a secret because his mother, the Queen, quote, came from a family of ERGRE's. Oh, I told you, I'm sure revelations, and it was even whispering court that she herself had over's tendencies, which means she eats people. That's what Urgan Urga just means a cannibal. It's not a monster in these old fair tales. So this is a reverse rightful to where the prince saves the fairy, the fairy saves the lady and has to protect it from the Urga Queen, rather than right. Yeah, the king who only made. The reason he married an ogre queen is because she's loaded. Yeah, so he married it for lots of money, which is another thing where these fairy tales, I realize, is that we're putting all this true love thing on, but when they were written back in the feudal times, true love had nothing to do with it. So that is a modern imposition. Yeah, he only made the Queen for our money. Then he dies. So the prince becomes the king, the one who saves sleeping beauty, and he makes his marriage public, as well as the two children that they've had in secret all EAS years. Not because he's like yes, I'm king now, so I can come out of the w back. He then immediately goes on holiday. Okay, scom which point the Queen, mother other Arga, sets about trying to me. It's Chil true, but the cook. The way they get out of this is the cook substitutes other animals. So she's like Cook that kid and then he hides the kid and is like a chicken. She know that's better. This is this is a thing. I think this is in one of the snow whites or something. That's one of the other fairy tales ends like this. So obviously this is a truck that's got like stop somewhere. That is the end of the sleeping beauty section with the surprise reverse shruck at the end. So yes, but that's just one of the fairy tales they encounter. We also have there's mentions of Rapunzel, which has a sorceress in it. Your run rumple stiltskin. I've not had to say about that. Even feel like I know a rumple still could stiltskins about. He hates kids. No, now it's a rubble stiltskin. Is The lady who, I think she's locked in a tower and told she can't leave or something until she spins the Hay into Straw. And then rumble stiltskin shows up and he's like a magical lepricorn man who says I can do that, but you have to promise me you like your marriage or your firstborn or something right, and she agrees. Temptation story and says the only way that you can get out of this is if you guess my real name. And she can't guess his real name, but then she overhears the I think maybe the birds tell her or something in one of these versions, but someone over here is his name and tells her and then she knows his name is rumbles Stiltskin, and then he turns to wood or something. Okay, I heard somewhere and I couldn't find this one I was looking at, because at the end he gets really mad and he stamps his foot on the ground until his foot gets stuck into the ground, and there's something about this is a dildo. To bring it all back around, there's something somewhere I read about how rumble Stiltskin is like the rumble stiltskin is a Dildo, because there's an older version where he gets stuck in her or something. Yeah, I will do more research into that and clarify and part two, but I couldn't find anything. I don't really have anything to say about them. These are just the fairy tales laid Bruner but in the book there's also...

Goldilocks in the three bears, yeah, which was first published in narrative form by the romantic poet Robert South Insi in eighteen th boy, he's one of your guys here. Well, he's the conservative antagonist of one of my guys. Yeah, he's the one calls them the Satanic School. Oh, very nice. Yeah, and then he mockingly writes poetry about them. But he did at Coleridge did marry his sister. So like they're friends at the start and then he became a traitor to the cause. But yeah, in that version, rather than Goldilocks, it is an impudent, bad old woman who breaks into the House. Yeah, HMM. So again I getting this trope. The only one, other one that gets like an extended examinations my savorite. Yeah, red running herd. That's my favorite as well. I don't have that much to say about it, just because I think the scene sort of speaks for itself. Yeah, yeah, because I like running chastising the woodsman for not taking care of the thing. The Woodsman, for the record, is introduces a savior figure in the GRIMM's version. He is not part of it earlier. So they're introducing this patriarchal savior figure. HMM. Though again we have the idea that the wolf's nature is determined by his body. HMM. Not mean he's been forcibly shape shifted into something else, but, and this is a thing with the wizards then we all talk about in next book. But they have the saying the leopard can't change it shorts. That was in academicals as well. Right, well, that's the thing. All that was, yeah, saying all the time. I'll say that's the the Leopard can't change its spots. Yeah, so I guess what projects saying is like the Leopard can't change its spots but it can change it short, but it shouldn't change its shorts because it is made of spots. I'm not really sure he's yeah, not a film, I think on that. It says in which is abroad, that no one had never tried to talk to the wolf and that the grandmother was similar a sligh from society because the villagers had shunned her after mistaking her for a witch due to her hook marries and lack of teeth. So this is playing on the prejudice of like the Black Anna Story. We're talking about things. Yeah, all this is in the book. I don't have anything to say about it. was just a cool state. We had a cat friend as well, who was our only friend, and they murdered as a from earlier that. Yeah, and you see, yeah, nothing to say about this. I just could not bring it up because it's such a it's good, such a cool scene. All right, the big one, the big one. That is not the big one, because it's like one throwaway gag in in the book, but I went down a real rabbit hole with the wizard of Oz and now I'm going to subject you to it. So yeah, another, another classic fairytale encountered by the witches is l fink bombs. The wizard was from Martin hundred, and this I do think, even though this is a throwaway joke in which is a broad when and he gets hit on the House with the head and she has a had the reinforced hat right, I think this is worth camping out on because, because the wizard was is so significant to the portrayal, which is, Yep, like when you think of which is I don't know for me which good way, Wi good, which of the West going going fly my pretties like. That's the trusting needs. Monkeys were terrifying. The monkeys are terrifying. Yeah, and in the conclusion to her, in one thousand nine hundred and ninety six book, the which in history, which we discussed in the previous episode, Dia pokus observes that, despite the salties of radical feminist historians and modern which is the dominant image of the which is still a shrieking hag on a broomstick, came to the wicked which of the West from the nineteen thirty nine film adaptation of the wizard of Oz, directed by Victor Fleming. That's it. It's not even that, it's the book, it's the film. Yeah, and this is specifically in which is abroad. It is the film their reference. Yeah, because in the book this is the I don't know if there's a literary term for but the Dirkey Dorkey fact, right, the Dirkey Dorkey fact is that my brothers to you, was originally Dirkey dokey panic in Japan, and then they just put my own it. When it came to America's a different Maria to but this is the trivial that someone tell you any time you bring up a subject right, is the Dirkey dookey. Fact about the adaptation of the wizard of Oz is that in the book it's silver shoes, not ruby shoes. So when granny has the red slippers, which she has on the covers of all the which is books, that that is a reference to the movie. So yeah, it's the movie that's had the cultural impact rather than the books. Indeed, much of the Arconography he's playing with the Ruby slippers, which is silver in the book. As we said, the famous line we're not in Kansas anymore and the Dingdong Song Aren't in the book. SM shure points out in his chapter on humor and the new or work in discworld from the narrative world's collection. Here we once again have a quotation of her own original that does not exist. The grimms are accounted for and discworld. That's why we got the fairy tales, but Baum and films and the wizard of Oz and not. We've got this idea of the quantum residents. That does get picked up on in lords of ladies. It is sort of the out of place one. Yeah, there's less of an issue for me than the hill stuff in with scissors because it's not like there is an author analog and it's before him, so he hasn't written it yet. It's just in the NEBULA. But there is a distinction there. Yeah, ironically, the film so successful. When Boum with he all he wanted to be was a filmmaker and he founded his own studio and made all these visit of alls adaptations and went bankrupt then died. Then the film Aina got made. Yeah, how do you feel about the wizard of Oz like? I mean, I enjoyed it when I was a kid. I remember having watching on my grandparents ORT and all writing story about it. Oh,...

...you want that far. But I hated it because I was going to be a famous author I was child, but I hated the monkeys like they genuinely terrified me, like a lot. Yeah, one thing I used to make. That's what I remembered. I used to make grand turn it off at a certain point. After all, okay, I watch the Nice fits and then when I got too scary, I'd like turned off now. But yes, it's important to distinguish between the book and the film versions. MMM, and there's a whole series of Oz books. There's like forty books and they're still being Christ they keeps being ends to the series. But it was very popular, so we have to keep keep going. Yeah, and he was broke otherwise, so he's doing fair. So originally it was meant to be a stand alone. Then it was popular and it's like the Frankenstein thing where it became a brought a theater thing. Yep, is that? So? Then you wrote a couple of sequels and was meant to be like two or three, but then they're like not write more. The second one is really cool. The first books just the film. Right. There's a lot of differences and we'll talk about that in a bit, but it's the general story. Is there the second book? No, Dorothy, what you've got a new character whose name I cannot remember. It's a little it's a little boy, and he goes to Os and he has all these adventures and what happens there is that odds gets overtaken by this army of like rogue pirate women. Yes, yeah, and then he goes off and he steals this magic belt and they come back and all throughout the book there's a whole thing about there's the Princess Ozma, right, who's the ruler and she's been missing because there was a witch, and we'll talk about her in a second, who put a spell on her or something. HMM. And then at the end of the book they're like, Oh, this is great, you've saved the city of Ols, but where's the princess? The little boy is the princess. Got Turned into a boy for safekeeping and then becomes the safety a princess. Okay, so there's some gender swapping things going on there. Also, when we went yes about that, the army of women bound. WHO's the author? He was married to Malt Gage, who was the daughter of the sufferer leader, Matilda Gage, who is the namesake of the Matilda effect, the idea that women don't get credit for things, what you're talking about, and and wrote some books of out firnist and suffragette history and stuff. So he was married to the daughter of of our major suffragette. So there's these like feminist even though he sat of making funny fun of it with the they're the bad guys, the army that overtakes the thing. He is putting these ideas and things in there. So there's a lot of stuff. The second books are really good and then it just becomes every book is starts off with some really interesting, like weird imagery at the start, like it's absurdist, like sort of else in wonderland side of stuff. So the first few chapters are really interesting and then it's just like and here are all your favorite characters. They went back to the thing in the scarecrow showed up and they're like, oh my God, scarecrow, we'd love you. Okay, because he didn't want to write them anymore. Yeah, and then I just finished on the way here. I was listening to the last hour of the audio, but of the last book of the original series, which I think his book six or seven. All right, one city of ours, which finishes by Dorothy and our family moved to us. They fend off the nome kings invasion and then there's an epigraph which says and then they decided to make the entire city of US invisible and unfindable on any map and there were no more communications from the world of us and everyone lived happily. Of after there anythink about it ever again. Then he runs out of money and starts writing more books and I think it was is there's fourteen original all masters I've read these like first seven, MMM, then there's fourteen, then he dies and then whole other authors continue on the series and there's like forty of them. No one knows about these books. They only know the film. HMM. Yeah, so there's some interesting stuff going on there, like I said, with the suffragette stuff and some of the feminist under turnings and things. In his one thousand nine hundred and eight free book, Fairy Tales and the art of subversion as lives, observes that by the end of the nineteen century, the fairy tale was no longer to be like a mirror. There was no longer to be like the Mirror Mirror on the wall reflecting the cosmic bouchois standards of beauty and virtue that applied to the unadulterated and pure. Instead been cracked into sharp edge radical parts by authors such as George McDonald, who's the guy who wrote the Goblin story that we don't know, MMM, who we probably should know if he keeps coming up. Oscar wild and hell fan bomb Ra have in turn become known as classical fairy tale writers themselves. So just put that big gone chote and there. Because of obviously we have lots of mirror stuff, and the wizard of was represents a deliberate attempt by bound to revise the fairytale tradition. So in the intro to the first wizard of his book, the wonderful wizard was, he notes that folklore, legends, myths and Fairy Tales have followed childhood through the ages and he argues that the winged fairies of groom and Andison, who brought more happiness to childish hearts than all other human creations. So on. Okay, all right, you if he also argues that the time has come for a series of newer wonder tales in which the stereotype genie, Dwarf and fairy are eliminated, together with all the horrible and blood curdling incident devised by their authors to point a fiersome moral to each tale. And he therefore writes the wonderful wizard was as a modernice fairy tale in which the wonderment enjoy are retained but the heartaches and nightmares are left out. Now you've said the thing about the flying monkey's being shires vers. I wouldn't say that their heartache cannot, meth left that a wizard was. It's grizzling. I mean that's the movie version, which someone falls on a something is like...

...a house falls on house bills on a lady. In the book, you know the ten man? Yes, just a tim man in the movie. Yeah. Well, the way the ten men got no is he was a woman who chopped off bits of his body, MMM, and then placed it with tin. Replaced it with tin, but he kept chopping away his body, because I think of witch Cursedi's axe, and he chopps away his entire body, including his head, and rebuilds himself so out of Teen Franks hands. Never Mind, I'll leave it alone. I'll let but of its friend. It's not because he's cut himself down and then rebuilding. But there there are Tumatons and stuff. Yeah, there's a tick tock robout like a clockworker, gout man and stuff. In the later box they're also explicitly sent on a quest. Like today. Send them on the quest to kill the wicked witch of ours. Even the first book doesn't. Don't. They get taken by the monkeys. I don't remember us in the book feels familiar. When they go visit the wizard of ours, he specifically says, I will send your home if you go and murder the witch. Oh, yes, right, you're right, grizzly. And then the wicked witch defends herself by attacking them with armies of Wolves and crows and bees, which the tim man cuts in half like he's cutting moves in half. Yes, so in the book, rather than like in the film, it's an accident. Dorothy spills the water on the witch and then she melts. In the book she very deliberately discovers the witch's weakness to water and lots of to murder her and through the war. And then they recognize for the film that Dorothy be more sympathetic. Here are car was well sympathetic, but also passive and docile. Yeah, in his two thousand and two analysis of the fairy tales influence in the wizard of Oz, Steven Swan Jones observes that since bounds heroin is allowed to get angry and act decisively on her feelings. She therefore constitutes a positive and non existent representation. MMM turns also notes the Will Bounds. Dorothy uses the bucket of water as a weapon, much as the male protagonist of the other fairy tales use their swords, flumings. Dorothy can only act in consonants with sexist and patriarchal notions that women are fundamentally not hostile and aggressive. She is an active female protagist in the books, whereas, yeah, she everything that happens here her in the film is by accident. HMM, and she apologizes to the witch. Right. And yes, as you said, it begins with Dorothy crushing old woman to death with their house. So I think you really missed the mark with the on grizzly fairy tale, especially if you watch them with the good guys don't get hurt. That's the fine right. Yeah, so Bam is sort of revising the fairy tale here himself, and one of the things that he revises is the image of the witch, as ups observes. Now, I'm refused to comply with the standard notions of sexuality and sex roles and question the restrictions placed on the imagination of children in traditional fairy tales. And Yeah, this is most apparent in his treatment of witches. So you've got, for which is right, the cardinal directions. Yet so the first one you got the wicked witch of the East, which is the one the house fells on. HMM. And it said that she has held all the Munchkins in bondage for many years, making making them slave for her night and day. Yes, so we got Munchkin's, not dwarves. So it's a nationality rather than a race. Okay, in the wizard of Oz Yep. But yeah, is this idea that she enslaved the Munchkins. This is something in fairy tales with the mother figure. The mother is always putting their children to work, it's leaving them. So this is how the witches but yeah, also, like a hundred years almost, or eighty years at least before Pratchett, we have an image of a good witch which is pretty revolutionary, I guess. I mean ahead of its time, ahead of its time, like we we've got the godmothers and things in the traditional fairy tales, but this is someone who is called a witch, being good, the good witch of the north. And I've got the picture of her there. She seems Nice. She seems Nice, but she looks like a witch. She has the point he had. Yeah, she's White, not black. Right. Well, she's yellow and that picture. But Yeah, the her outfit is well, all right, yes, whereas in the film version she's like the pretty fairy princess things in the book. Now she is a witch, is an old woman and I think she's a fairy godmother sort of figure. So, yeah, she's the witch of the north. She introduces herself and says I am a good witch and the people love me and I'm not as powerful as the wicked witch who ruled here, or I should have set these people free myself. That's really gets r out of that Nice. I don't know if something's gone on there with the powers of evil. And Yeah, it I think also a moral gets her out of not challenging the witch. If you she was going. Yeah, but there is an implication that, like with Lily, a little eth is more powerful than granny weather backs because she gave in to the evil power. So I don't know that that's obviously ready into it, but it's something down on there. And dorothy responds and says, but I thought all which is will wicked, and she explains, Oh no, that is a great mistake. There are only four witches in the land of Oz and two of them those who live in the north and the south. A good witches. I know this is true from on myself and cannot be my saken. There is a balance between good and evil in the wold. Yeah, well, we've just UN done that balance because, because this is yeah, but Dorothy herself is a witch. Okay, she gets the shoes. Oh, yeah, right, and later in the book she becomes a Princess of ours. MMM, she is explicitly called a noble sorceress by the good witch of the north. MMM, because she wears the silver shoes and has killed the good witch, but also because she has white and her frock and only witches and sorceresses where. Why? This is why I was pointing to the picture before. Yeah, but we compare that to...

...granny's black. This is a performative aspect of which is it's interesting that, yeah, which is here are white. So, yeah, we have good which is and a good witch protagonist almost a hundred years before protchect Nice, interesting stuff. The other which you have is the good witch of the south, who is Glinda, the good witch in the books. The movie is the good witch of the north. Is Glinda the good which, but here she's the good witch of the south and her color is red. Yeah, it has red hair, she has a red body and she's the most powerful of all. The witch is. So I don't know why she didn't go and stop the yeah, it's slavery and she but she has a reputation as a beautiful woman who is kind to everyone, knows how to keep young in spite of the many years she has lived so eating hearts of well, I wanted to connect this to the article, the captability article we've talked about in the last couple about our Pratchett represents old women powerful and capable. He are. The most powerful is the young, which is young and pretty right. Yeah, and then, of course we have the wicked witch of the West, and there's the picture of her there, quite different from the long hat, but yeah, the giant hat. I thought it was funny. But she's like short and shrivel of angered. Yeah, she doesn't bleed, for she was so wicked that the blood in her head dried up many years before. No grizzly stuff in this book there. Yeah, I think the other thing is that that's another comment on her being old, isn't it right? Yes, and something's completely left out of all the movies is that she has a golden cap that grants her three wishes. One of which is the ability to control the flying monkeys. Of all the animals, would you are, you know what, controlling monkeys? And dorothy and's up taking this cap and bring it to the good witch in the south. But she when she tries it on our own head, she finds it fits exactly, since is sort of like a Cinderella thing. Right, YEP, rather than to be a princess, it's to be a wish. So there's something on these books. Yeah, that's why I'm spending so much time on the wizard of us he because I do think there's a lot of this informing Pratchett or pre empting Pratchett, not not. Some observes that a central theme of Os is that wherever you are searching for us found within yourself. No one else can give it to you. This is similar to granny's position that is pointless to search outside yourself, that you are your me. Okay, see, there's so much going on in the wizard of Oz that is directly adapted into which is abroad, which the whole point is that they go on a journey to a city somewhere. So yeah, right there, fairly yellow brick fruit. Yes, I feel like there's a joke in there about yellow bricks at some point as well. There is, yeah, but you're right, the whole way they're on the road, and that's like a fairytale of mythological yeah, form, but I can't remember the list of those fairytale rewritings. One was using the structure. Oh, yeah, and things. So he's repattern structure, repatterning, he's using he's alluding to the structure of wizard of Oz yeah, even though he only has the house thing. MMM. The other magic us have, of course, is the wizard of was h turns out not to be actually a magic user in the film. Oh well, in the book as well. Yeah, he is a magician from Earth who's traveled to us, Yep, and has fooled everyone to think he's a wizard with his magic tricks. So he's using head Ology, right. Yeah, he's manipulating people, he doesn't actually perform magic. Nice and Nutson suggest that it could even be. Could even be an allusion to Louie's power being an illusion, an illusion to the illusion, just like the wizard's powers and illusion. HMMMM. I mean lith has actual power, but it's not real power. So yeah, so again, there's so many tires to pratch it. Oh, and and the other thing they have is ournas being a magicallest wizard. He's doing head ology like grandy weather backs. He's also a magic was wizard, which is rints wind. Yeah, true. So, yeah, or continuing so much stuff from the wizard of was. It's all coming together. But the point about the wizard of Oz is there still a hierarchy, there's still this idea the wizard of Oz rule all the witches. Yeah, so in the first sequel, the marvelous line of us, that's the good one I was talking about from one thousand nine hundred and four. That begins by introducing its antagonist, mobby, who is not exactly a witch, since the witch of the North had forbidden any other which to exist in her dominions, making it unlawful to be more than a sorceress or at most a wizardess. Yeah, again the come back to our conversation in equal rights, sorceresses and things not being which is, but also this idea that our which is an occupation, a position. It's like professor, Yep, people keep asking me now I got my PhD, like all. So what have you got to do to be a professor. One employee, give me a job. Yes, he is one for you. So I was talking about Ozma. She's the boy. HMM, it's reveal. She's the princess and they transferment to the princess. Now zive says that Ozma, the Hermaphrodite, is a symbol of matriarchy and guarantees that development of socialist humanism in Os by regulating magic, especially by batting black magic. So we have a hermaphroditic figure who brings balance to that. Cool, this is your heart of thing. Yeah, it's a Britinat is Ozma, not Brott Hilda. Yeah, see, as I said, with with the book series, there have been lots of continuations and in versions of the wizard of Oz most famous of which is the one thousand nine hundred and ninety five book wicked by Gregory McGuire, which served as the inspiration for the record setting player of the same name, which I assume people are familiar with through Cultural Osmosis, at least these fairy tale versions from revision. It's kind of McGuire's thing. MMM. But we cons really interesting because I'm like most...

...earlier reinterpretations which focused on Dorothy and her ancestors. MMM, McGuire makes his focus that we could which of the West, and is the most successful adaptation for it. So there something here where we don't want to hear about Dorothy anymore. We want to hear about the witches. And this, of course comes a couple of years after Pratchett does, which is a broad and weird sisters, and after there's these fairytale revision so there's something going on around this time. We're stuff now, heros, you got anything? I just think that's that's about the time when culturally, we start to get really interested in dark herrow. So it makes sense that we start being interested in whitches in the back story, whiches. Is there anything like? Why? Because obviously, like I understand that wicked comes after preachure, which comes after Carter and everyone else doing these things. But is there a reason? Why? Is it just these kind of Texas starting to reappear or appear again in modern form, that you've got the vampire stories, you've got whatever fantasy story? Yeah, exactly like those start to appear and gain traction and popular popular culture again. SECON my feminism right, this is why? Now we have voices like Angela Cardo and cherious taper and stuff to do feminas for visions of fairy tales, makes sense. Why they went around before then? M But then, yeah, I don't know why dark heroes, and there's not much of a relation between wicked and and, which is a broad obviously it came after but I did read it for this and it was quite good. All surprised by it's met. I've told you this before, but it's major problem is that it is set in ours mm, because there's lots of sexy sex scenes with the wicked witch of the West, which, when you're all you have in your head is fly my pretty and I'm melting, here you are, is difficult, whereas if, I think it had have been set in its own fantasy universe, it would have worked a lot better. But then by the same taken, it wouldn't have been as successful because you wouldn't be able to market it as being R interepreation of the wizard. was what was really interesting to me, and why I want to talk about a bit here, is the whole book is about Animal Rights Activism. Uh Huh. Yeah, the wicked which of the West she's friends with. Her name in the book is Alpha Bar Hmm, and she's friends with Linda the good witch. They're in high school or college together. It's like Harry Potter Magic School, but a year before that was written. But yeah, she gets caught up in this whole animal activism movement, because one of the things in the books is animals can talk in us, right, you got the coward learn, obviously. But in the later books, like Dorothy has a chicken who's always be her hen Elina, who's threatened with being turned into dinner and things, and they go to Oz and Bilina becomes a character who can talk and things. And Yeah, I've read these seven books, the original Ark, and they're still talking about eating meat and stuff. And there's not all his animal right. There is a character called the the very hungry tiger, hmm, who becomes friends with the coldly lion and he is a vegetarian, mm. But he's a tiger, so he's very hungry. Yeah, he has morals, HMM. So he starves. There's also a group of foxes in one of the books who I angry at AESOP for making them sound, yeah, mysterious and cunning, right. So we're dealing with the way fables and fairy tales of shaped culture. Also in wicked Alphab's mother is the wife of a seventh son, of a seventh son, so we just have another recurring trope. But she's also drugged with a green potion and raped, and that's why she has our greed. Yeah, and you also have a traveling glass blower, is Alphabs Stepdad, father who blows the mother a mirror to look into. Huh? So I mean obviously the mirror is a fairy tale trope that we will talk about in part two. Oh, and this is my favorite, but that I of the thing. But you do have a reference to a boom and changed to find the broom, it says it moves in a naughty way between her thighs. Oh yeah, yeah, that's good. Nothing to do a Freshi. But he's tied up with fairytale revisions and I think is interesting. The other noteworthy thing about the wizard of was is that it's a distinctly American fairy tale. Right before this would dealing with German, HMM, French, English things as well. So this is European culture, European morals, this feudal system these ideas of marriage and things, whereas yeah, O is is an American fairy tale, I'm but it's also a distinctly anti American fairy tale. Okay, in his one thousand nine hundred and ninety four chapters, as American myth, sips observes that both the book and the film version of is it was depict America as a failure. Conversely, Oz is depicted as the symbolical embodiment of the longing for a better life, as the Utopian Realm in which justice is attained, and this especially comes through in the later books, and that only through experiencing the strange utopia of Oz and learning about aliens and other ways does Kansas become bearable. So it's a utopian fairy tale. It's very cool that, weirdly, the most cited article on the wizard of was, like, if you look it up online, is this article about how it's a metaphor for the silver versus the gold standard in the early nineteen hundreds, right, and there's this whole crazy theory, and apparently this has become a thing in economics. Of people teach this, where the yellow brick road is the gold road. You have to follow the gold to the riches. You got to stay away from the silver and and all this in the cowardly lions meant to be the representation of this guy who was campaigning for the silver standard or something that was called a coward in the newspapers. Know it...

...fits, but he just like there's no way he wrote a book about this and there's no way he wrote a book about that. This has been thoroughly disproven. But also just whoever came up with this theory? This is why it is important to read all seven books, not just the first one. Is Very clearly stated in the later books, whereas I was become more of an inversion of America, is that there is no money in Ozha Dorothy and up movie car entire family to Oz because they know their farms going to be repossessed because they can't work and the American dream is a failure and you can't make anything of yourself. And she says, why don't we go to old socialism? Yeah, and a run. So, yeah, that that money allegory is on fleet run. She's like really angry. He's got to keep writing books. He's like this family. They won't have to do though. Yes, yeah, although in nineteen or five he claimed he had purchased a Californian island where he intended to build an Oz themed amusement park called Ozland. Okay, there appears to be no evidence that he ever actually purchases island, nor that the island he describes it even exists, and I'm struggling to even verify the claim itself. I can only find secondary references, m but also it's from on thousand nine hundred and four. So just said it somewhere and no one wrote it down. But this preamps Disneyland, right, Yep, which we're going to talk a lot about Disneyland in part two, because January is Disneyland. UH, yeah, Disneyland is a kingdom where fairy tales are real. Yeah, and this is tied up in Similarcas who. Yes, we will talk more about genuine and Disneyland and the Americanization of all fairytales. Impart too hot to which hopefully will come out in a couple of weeks. This is well truly had if you haven't said anything for like the last forty minutes, even to add you just had to do your wizard of Oz right. Like, I have nothing. I have nothing. It's like the ork thing. I'm like cool, but yeah, any last thoughts on the things we have covered this week? Not all right? Well, next time we will talk about Januarine and everything after. WHOO. Why? I for and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. They'll be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign up to our patreon page and get all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any burnus episodes or specials that we end up doing. If you're after more of us. Alice hosts her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Thanks to a bibliography for today's show, along with the fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing out takes. Yes, I want marathon. Yesterday I watched all the the wizard balls movies. WRI didn't watch all of because it has we'd lie for a movie that I we're saying is like perhaps the most culturally significant film of all time, like it's not a franchise. No, I mean that maybe, is what I hear. There are sequels, which I think will come as a surprise to a lot of people right and there. There's a lot of them, but none of them have been successful, except for the original, and then they didn't immediately make a sequel to it like I guess they. That's not how they did things in those days. But there's actually an Australian film called Oz, a rock and roll road movie from one thousand nine hundred and seventy six, which is about the land of Oz, being Australia. The music's by Ross Wilson, who was the lead singer of daddy cool. Okay, I watched the trailer for this. Not a chance. Never watching the I was gonna say that could go one or two or no, no, it looks completely insufferable. All right, what I did watch was the whizz from one thousand nine hundred and seventy eight. You know about the WHIZ. The wiz is the old black Broadway version and the movie version is starring Diana Ross, is Dorothy. She's like a forty year old woman playing Dorothy. Michael Jackson as the scarecrow and just yeah, a whole bunch of like black singers and Comedians. It's a lot Michael Jackson's in it. Michael Jacksons in it and he's a weird dancing scarecrow. The first the first day, I was a bit rough. The second hour it is pretty cool, okay, and then the particular the depiction of the wicked witch, eveling, is a pretty cool the other one I watched because I've seen there's the one from, I think it's two thousand and thirteen or something like Sam Remi, directed by the Guy Who did evil dad. So I went sorrow with my friend. Would like. This is nothing like it will dad. Also very bad as a Miller, Cunis, and what's his name? I mean that's enough. Yeah, I cannot stand here. But she plays the wicked witch and that. And there's also a return to Oz which is like, for Im think it's one thousand nine hundred and eighty something. I you see hundred and eighty seven, which follows the books, which I'm going to talk about the book series a lot more closely. That one's really cool, but it's like it's a form, like children's horror movie. But that one's a lot of fun. The point about that one is it stars as Dorothy, as an actual young child. This time stars for as a bulk, right or who, for is a Bulkus? N for as a bulk is a very distinctive actress from the Niche I had. Most famous role is as Nancy in the craft. Do you know? The craft are movie, but was actually remade really recently. The craft is your girl power, which movie? Oh about this, like which is who?...

They form a coven and they still experimenting with the witchcraft, for one of them is actually a witch and the other ones up pretending, and Nancy is the leader of the bad which is because it's like, it's like mean girls, but with witches. Okay, exactly like mean girls, bough with whitches. I like it already. So for as of all plays, not Lindsay lohand the other one, the mean one. Yeah, the month she plays the mean girls like her, the leader of the thing, and she becomes the old, powerful, which she sells us older, the devil and things, and then jest a defeat her. It's up so that the main character, who is a little girl and then returned to us, goes on to that, which is the first line of the fairy going is addictive, or the first line. You're very first line. There was a gentleman pricking on the plane. It's exactly what it hang on. Is that a Dick Tree hundred and ten or is this one of Patrick? And he does things where they like? You can't say siminal because it means spurn hundred and ten percent. This is a Dick joke that then Spencer keeps coming back to throughout. It's fantastic, friends. He's making fun of the testosterone feel postering something this way. It comes by the pricking of my thumb. Yeah, is that a hand rod? And Mom not my logic. This is be done and his very good understanding of the English language, I don't know about now it is I promise you that he believe nothing else. That is it. Of course we're talking about this because we did spend almost an hour talking about which is showing broomsticks up there, but's likely to be fair and supervisors really into eighteen century dildos. So so if you seen his block set, Patrick has a blog post about they discovered it's like the oldest Guildo ever, right, and in a toilet and a nunnery or something yep, that's it. Yeah, I read that and then I used to do the the sword fighting. Yeah, so I went and they were talking about the seventeen century and tracing all this the true back for it, and I was like, guys, we had to name. We used to do like fighting at the end and we break up into teams and have a bout where you pick a team name, and I never cared that. That week we were the seventeen century dildos. That's very good. So I did a very different thing where I found I saw the blog post and I was at home at the time and I was like, Hey, d this guy's gonna be my supervisal, not yet. Think next time around. And Yeah, you still want to introduce him after that? ID boce. I both want to hang out. Yeah, but one does research into seventeen century dildos. That's upon my he'd be very interested, like that's why I showed it. He dildos. He finds it's not fascinating, just like generally hot anything found in toilets. He's really into running joke right where. You know, likes regularly found in toilets. People. He has a pub care collection and he doesn't but it's easy abodies being like I keep him in match boxes. I've got all these match books. If I'm blipping, picked up public toilets. That's why I'm the way I am. No, there's no genetics candles, which there were a gift. You don't have to put them on kitchen bitch fun there, though. Put this on rollers need some up. Love leaves a norful taste in your mouth. All right, please make jerks like it helps it off. It's not a nice joke. It's pretty nice, right, BEN IT UM? That's how you get the ghost taste, isn't it? I'm just trying to work out what sex position the surprise river shook is. When you take the wax out of your yeast. I'll start doing it here and you shove it in there. But, and I'm being recorded, shut up.

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