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4A – Witches Abroad - Part 1

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Episode 4A of Unseen Academicals, discussing the third book in the Witches Series, Witches Abroad (1991), and using it to explore the characterisation of Magrat and her tension with Granny Weatherwax, crises of identity, homoerotic familiars, fairy godmothers, how fairytales shape culture, way too much about Sleeping Beuaty and The Wizard of Oz, a bit of Shrek, and, uh... dildos. Lot's of dildos. Nanny Ogg would be proud (we hope!).

The sound on this one is actually pretty good!

There's an intermittent thumping sound that shows up now and then, I've done my best to minimise it and I've found speeding up the podcast to 1.2x or 1.5x speed smooths it out a lot.

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod
 



 

Before we do an actual intro there,what we need to do, we need to think jess thanks Jus, it's just just. Wesigned up to our picture. Ah, yes, you're the best yeah who's, the onlyone who's done so so far, just as a bad, let's give her a plug just has it beenreally yeah? They called the Maggie pills they line it ay. I would like sort of an indie garagerock grandy kind of band. They got a van Camp Page there on the spottily, soyeah check out the Maggie pills and support chess, because she supports us e S E, so I'm Josh and I'm Alis AD withtheI'se academical Yeah Yeah. We are, and this week we're going to be talking athousand nine hundred and ninety one, which is abroad. The third book in thewitcher series and the twelfth over all dis quote book, were in the informalcover of granny weather, wax nanny og and newly invited fairy godmother.Magra Alick must contend with the power of fairy tales on the lay to the NewOrleans as city of January genua. was that how you take an you? Want genuine,I think it's genuine Januar to confront granny weather, waxes, sister Lilithand save Princess Amarella from having to marry a prince and go to the ball.We're going to use the book to explore the nature of stories, the power ofparody, familiars, classic Fairy Tales Mirrors, the wizard of Oz, Carnis m waytoo much about sleeping beauty, cultural shoven and much much more are,but first in honor of the repulse drag race recap podcast Alice. Please tellme two things you liked about the work and one thing you did not: okay, I'vebreakin the roll and put two things I don't like, but okay, so hang on overoverall you're, not feeling this one. Now I've got to for age. I render yeah.I thought we're having another. Weird is no! No like a a a huge mistake. YouI get to it her yeah two things I liked Iloved macrath, that's just that's it. We will discuss I'm sure she gets allsearched yes and I really enjoyed the granny weatherwax gambling see. Oh okay.I just really felt that, and I have lots to say about the dildo jokes, butwe'll get to that a they don't have their own section. Less you find notice,you left it out, so I found all the worts and put it in Yes for I, you do got to have those tildes in thereanyway. Two things I didn't like the weirdracism along the way. H really here, O smatch in the mouth constantly, and I'm going to use a word. That'sgoing to make you make a face so and that word I've come up with. Is it'svery shriek Esk and I know prancy came for he shore do in trackers later andit Allah, but the whole time of ash reel trick is very prejudice exactly. IHae some truck revelations to come yeah, but now it's yes, it's trick andtractor. I Guess Truck Tacul is right. M just track. As I know, shrik becomelike a bit of a mean. Now I speak man. I don't want our reverence for trek tobe like a trek like trick came out when I was what ten eleven years old, Ithought it was real good. It was great. We, the first one, never really gotalong with any of the sequels, even as a thirteen five year old, that's okay!I he! The second one is the best, but I don't really want to the best test onesthe best when he kicks open the Doni Door. Like you come that's the best, so I feel like we're getting a bit Mami.Sorry! No, but I do I don't do like the at least the original shreck. And yes,this is doing. Trek is Modin. Is it yeah person for Ye, which we go talk alot of it? I have a question about. It Dwarf bread to come, but I don't know Idon't really have a section about to offer it. It's just a lot on it. Come Tit's a lot of the rings thing that was the bread that keeps them on yeah, yeah,okay, it's just making fun of it because it's meant to be hard and thata shit I mean this does in the later discobole you have the scorn of stonein found. I don't know if you ever got to that one, but it becomes an ongoingthing, but yeah there's no, nothing really more to that here than they'rejust making fun of Kas all right yeah. That was the you did tone, Turk, yes,sorry, break the roles. What it's meant to be a rough gun can feel so bad forme. Well, my one thing I like is Madre. I Love Man Grad and really did not livewith her at all. My first two times through the series which I think I saidon the last podcast but yeah really enjoying her on this re, read loving,had a character, a loving her in the next book, which will get to but yeahMax, O marites up there we'll talk more about her. My second thing I liked wasthe m. The last third of the book, which is very broad, but just when itkicks in to like the final action sequence, it really goes like it takesoff the confrontation in January with the with the snakes and everything andgranny versus Lilith and miss corval it just. I just think that is expert. Whyyou done? I see it was, but I really enjoyed all the lead up stuff of themjust having fun on the Ros yeah. I think we're both saying is. This is amuch better book than we D Sisters, Oh my God, Yeah Yeah, Oh my God, yeah this.This I was a bit worried, is not...

...structure and plot and not justconcident bad references to Shakespeare yeah. So I think we're a lot morepositive about this and I think I think it's definitely better written. I thinkhe's really found his voice in the world with this one but they're, justas far as like action set pieces. At the end, I do just thought I was sick. That's the two things I like. The onething I disliked, which I think we've got a been a Vervei here- is granny's,weird imperialism and cultural chavanes and conservatism, not that granny yeah,which we'll talk about now. I think we're recording this now, so we'll seehow it goes. The plan with this one is because I turns out we have so much togo through so much to say about this book because, rather than even withweird sisters, which was looking at Shakespeare, it's stillconfined to just shakespeare. This is what, if all fairy tales yeah, so Ithink this has. The women were saying. Weird sisters has the most limitedscope of. Maybe any book is contained in the Kingdom. It's focusing onMacbeth with a few other references who I should take a breath. This one, I think, maybe has thebroadest scope of any disco book. They literally trek across the country fromlike Scotland, scan north England to New Orleans and go through an entiregenre of stuff along the way. So there's a lot to come in here, so Ithink the way we're going to do it is this is going to be broken into twoparts which I'm hoping rather than coming out a month apart, like theother episodes will drop one down and we'll drop one in the middle of themonth. So in a fortnight today we're going to be covering everything on theway to genuine so on the road and the fairy tales and things they look atthere and then next episode will be Januare and everything in me. That'sthe idea. Maybe we'll see how it goes. I mean, but that's that's the plan sowe'll talk more about. I think the GRANIS conservative m stuff reallykicks him yeah when he in January, so that'll probably be safe for nextepisode but yeah. So we like this book- that's very sure. So, let's get into it,then so yeah, as with the other ones going to start by talking about thereception to the knot that, like weird sisters, is, is very highly regarded.It's another book that, and around Butler gives a five out of five writingin his pocket essentials guide, calling it great fun, which I would agree withyeah. I haven't actually been able to find or access any reviews from aroundthe time of publication. weirdly there's a really hard to find. I didfind a one thousand nine hundred and ninety three article in the Christianmagazine, the Third Way where project refers to a Sunday Times article. So wegot like three layers of reference here where project refers to a Sunday Timesreview where, in the writer described him as countless unable to drawcharacters, unfunny and then the review ended up by suggesting the world mightbe a better place with out. You see, that's very UNCHRISTIAN. True, I have not been able to source theoriginal of this review. I can't find any reference to it. That's not here,but I did find out no one thousand nine hundred and ninety three artocarpaceaeby Barry Phelps in the antiquarian book monthly review, which also refers to aSunday Times of year, which is abroad which concluded that project gamelyjest that occasionally he gets accused of literature. But I cannot for thesupernatural life at be imagined by her and then so. This review seems to beout there. I can't find it anything I can find from the Sunday Times is frommascate after and they are very revering of Prachin. Well, that wouldhave been reviewed, so I can't find anything I yeah and so, but obviouslylike he hasn't reached that untouchable stage that we saw with Ansinacademicals sure he thought that was a sum part book, but everyone's goingover he's Terry project though, and it's amazing rain can right like him.This is pretty early on et it's the twelfth book in the series which seemslike a lot, but we're still only six years into the thing so and it'scomedic fantasy. So they ready not being taken that seriously by the truth.Carove, as I imagine m. So I did find a joint review of which is a broad end,small guards by riggery freely in the Washington Post for one thousand ninehundred and ninety four, where he describes both books as Labid comparedto preches earlier sholder writing, but yeah you- and I both like this book,and I think this has become one of his most revered. I was already talkinglast week about how there was so much more about wed sisters than there wasabout equal rights. There is so much more about which is a broad than thereis like. I think this is the big one. Okay, I hope it's the big one, becauseI cannot keep a weird sisters in which is a broad level of research up andhaving looked ahead. That there's a little bit on Lords and, ladies, arealmost nothing on masquerade and Copain. So I think yeah. These two are weryHittie, sort of academic peak ye bet we're both really positive about thisbook, and one of the things we were equally positive about was McGrath loveit last yeah. I want to know how much of that is, because I've been relistening to these as the audio box, which are read by Nada Planer, whoplays Neil the hippy and the young ones, to okay eltee's a character. His Neilhe's like this day, I'm a Hippi who's, always cook ring lentils, yeah, so t Ithink, Migra being voice by Neil from...

...the young ones, is doing a bit of heavylifting there, but yeah I'm responding to a character. I really like her inthis book where s she's on a mission of self discovery and she's doing thenbut.I don't like that and she's a she's doing a karate yeah and you're thekarate experts. I always know if you had anything to say about her at all. Isaw her. I went back through like she's doing for us all that it by she'strying to find myself on you yeah. That's how people saw that is happening.I keep you much as and so nothing nothing to say about the crowd allright to A. I think. It's cool that I god does CR. I think it's meant to besilly that she's doing this cur. That's the thing he's making fun of her thewhole time, a being like a this silly vegetarian woman, who's, always pickingon the others and saying they're not woken off, but actually she ends upbeing the most likeable character for us. No, yes, I'd like to think that I'mthe granny weather wax, but I'm definitely the regret so yeah. I thinkthat I want to be the migrant, but maybe I'm just the nanny in both in at your spite from a GradYeah. Well, I'm none just wondering aroundbeing like it. What's a sex object yeah when I'm like I'm probably Morai, likeI'm, also just lying around me like a sound oflike I do. Yes, I protect doesn't approve of thisjourney of self discovery, so, as current say, observes in heresy on thewitches in the guilty of literature, collection, Magrath inability to changeher appearance has as much to do with or have you on ability twice in thesame sentence has as much to do with her inability to live up to her otherfeminist ideas of inner strength and self assurance as to her body's innateincapacity to take on the Glama she desires and trying to live up to theideals of modern femininity, she dells to see that she really ought to beherself rather than a pretty here here here it comes simulacrum. Okay. Here wego pot to we're going to have to do a Dido Center like homes, because itkeeps coming out because personism, I also just said it. Then Irealize from everything that I've been saying, similar, lock rooms andSimilars, but SIMULACRA is the plural of acker. So I just I know no say miles, and you also say thisreflected in the snake: Women Yeah that, like their appearance, has been changedbut they're still snakes inside right, yeah that you can't change you it's allabout what's inside, and this is again the stuff where, when we were talkingabout nut and the performanes things and on sanitade mic as that, prached isabout both authenticity. But he does not think a performance as much as he'son bored. With this third way, feminism general performed thing and as much asthe witches like Runnin, weatherwax and nanny are performing their witch gronahats in their dress. He there's some kind of tension there where herecognizes the importance of of performance, but emphasizes in ourauthored authenticity that has to come from within he's all about selfassurance, and I guess the difference is that granny weatherwax is so selfassured that she can manipulate that, whereas mgrate trying to define herselffrom the outside in Granny and now your going from the inside out, yeah andgranny and nanny, make it very difficult for a Grat to get gain in hisface. There to actually do it like she says, I'm going to go in with her God,mother now and I'm off, and I'm going to very good mother and they say noyou're, not. We will come with you, which and then sort of keep projectingthat self on to her as well, which I think makes an extra hard for her yeahand look. I get it because people who have like crystals and and play thingsI'd be like you're in sufferable I mean Genan and hate you, but at the sametime, like from a philos philosophical standpoint, I'm like my grat should betrying to shape herself through the way she expresses itself yeah, and I guessthe point is that she s an found herself yet- and I think this comesgood in the next book, where she definitely finds herself that's hard.The process, this one I can yeah yeah- I and this leans toward some of theConservatives and stuff with the outer witches. That is definitely in theredeliberately I'm going to talk about later, but here there is a valuejudgment being placed on this. Discovery were as yeah the discoveriespart of the process, and I just that inflicts with Granny Weatherwax or aswe'll see in words and ladies has always known who she is okay. Butif you don't know who you are you got you find yourself some propable for you.It was cool. I have O here now. If my hair wasn'tfalling out to long fine and this this differencein Va, judgment is drawn out in the comparisons to granet wax and the otherorder which es, because Mc Grat was trained by goody Weber. Make you restin peace who was a research which and in the twothousand and four new disk well companion, which is coortee by Cratchitand Stephen Briggs. They describe research richcraft as a small but veryvaluable side of the craft through which many witches of an inquiring mindhave dame centuries experimented with thousands of different ingredients, andI indeed good he went but died in an...

...accident of testing with their rooms.They could survive having its price put out one by one in mid air. So this is. This is almost the wizardmodel of witchcraft. I guess we he's practicing that kind of Yeah Mat Jeck.We never came up with like a proper tone for I, because we were talkingabout Goatish man, but then we decide that's that's white and Black Yeah JackYe, but which the wizards are parodies of scientists. Yes, so it makes sensethat they're doing that. So this is applying that to witchcraft yeah,whereas the other one is just the vibe. I've always been the years likepractical versus theory or just a we, where the wizards very no like thetheory and that informs the Pracher Practical, whereas the which is justlike they know the practical. They don't know why room sticks day up, butthey know how to use the broom sticks were as the wizards are like trosy onthe ground. Keep the broom sticks up yea, but then that other stuff doesn'twork unless the circles keep him. I don't know it's a weird one yeah and inthis kind of goes against the. Like curiosity, you sort of think o likepractising no it's bad to want to know why these things work, yeah, yeahmocking. Definitely well, it's not! The way the way to understand is throughpractice rather than research, but I think as academicals who I've got thelast month or research in which is a road. I think again. This is anotherreason why I'm relating to Magrabi, I would probably draw in to the researchricotta yeah, whereas there, the granny weather baxview is that it simply doesn't matter more of Er in the discord, companion,cratchit and brakes claim that there is no discord concept of white and blackmagic. There is simply magic in whatever form which may be used inwhatever way these decides suggesting. There is any type of magic that isintrinsically good or bad would make as much sense to a discord wizard assuggesting that there is good and bad gravity, and I think that is a lord ofcrowd. I agree. I'm glad you said t isle, oh I've got to go out here I mean you, have the wizards havespecific books locked up in the dungeon, because the magic in them is toodangerous, yeah and and there's the idea that, like granny weather, act,Esto constantly like police herself from becoming bad, and that is aboutthe way she uses it. But there's the idea that, like she said Yeah, youcan't use magic to control people in Weird Sisters, yeah. Well, that issaying that magic that is used to control is Manhattan. Yeah and we'resaying this book the way she treats the e blow it she's bad uses.Is that yeah exactly because it's a genuine but yeah? There's this emphasis on authenticity-and this is stated at the start of the novel during the meeting with the otherwitches where granny described Mc Grat by saying that she's gone funny in thehead wanting to relate to herself, but then she wouldn't listen to Granny'sexplanation that simplicity, garlic was your mother, Armin Araminta, Aramintagarlic was your granny, your Londe garlic is your arm and your your youryour me. I think I had too many years in, but you get it and then she sitsback with the satisfied look of someone who has just solved everything. Anyonecould ever want to know about identity, so there is some push back wherethey're poking fun of gray, that she can't articulate this thing and I'msure all those names mean something that I'll have to go through and puther in the transcript. But you next point is identity. Cogito, Oh yeah,because this this is. I think, therefore I am. This is ah yeah, butthat's that's meant to be the founding atum of Western philosophy. I this isthe one approvable truth that we can't deny. Therefore everything for s fromthat, whereas granny's like she's, finished there yeah, I am done. I know I am so yeah this conflicts again with Magrath she'snot allowed to reinvent herself. She is stuck being her. She is yeah, but ifher you are, is a female wolf like Cherry little bottom, you're allowed toput on tip, stick and express yourself that way, but but yeah he's making funof both that isn't it. He Yeah he's setting those ideas up which we nowlook at and- and I mean he's definitely starting with granny other ways. Thereis a tension going up. It's also obviously Tis into the thing of storiesmigrates trying to reshape myself and her identity by telling stories aboutherself. I am a karate person. I am this witch. I look this way. I atethese things: Yeah Yeah, whereas grain saying you eat what you eat but againthat sort of says. Well, then you don't get the opportunity to change yeah,which I don't like and conflicts with the better granny in the next book. Ithink okay, granny really goes on a strange character or doesn't she yeahlike she's, a completely different character to what we saw in the firstone? I toomai wouldn't say: She's a completely different character, butthere's definitely like she's, more entrenched in her values when she'steaching ask she's just very much like I am teaching you this and you're silly. If you don't listen to me,but there's none of this political kind of yeah I mean I was. I was going tosay this for next episode, part two. When we talk about the conservativething, but the main difference, I think, is not so much the viewpoint is, but inequal rights she changes her mind, and that is the thing where I said I likegranny weather Axin, like the Gran I'd like that granny's initially resistingto it, but then she realizes a goes no way. This is silly. You can be a wizard,whereas here she's going no practial doubles down. You are you are you andyou are what you are yeah and this is complicated again by while Esk is awizard? Yes, the whole Promesso the...

...book, but an maybe esis more authentic,because she's a wizard, because she is a wizard where, as migrates, not awizard she's trying to be something else. Do you know how all my grant is?I would think she's Mides late is okay, something like that confine they do say:She's, the youngest one and weird sisters, yeah so on the else. Basically,ages listened as tidy ish, which seems about right yeah by the end of thisHerzain. The end of the end of the series she's had a bunch of kids andthings. That's in the shepherds ground, the last one. That's it's like twentyyears after this book, so yeah but sort of mid, mid twenty seems about right. Iwas just thinking I e. The reason I was wondering I is a comparing. It askwho's very assured of herself. We just needs to find a way to be herselfbecause she's young and doesn't have all of those insecurities you have puton her, whereas my grat not tual so she's, just trying to hear everythingyeah, but you have to try everything you o. You can take that out. You an a sorry. Sorry on Gobantes stand outcharacter in which is a board is Greeba, and I was really surprised by how muchI liked breein great yeah you're, getting the Jack put thattogether and I didn't read pussing bit so I'm gonna have to go back and readPussin Ver! Now that's fine! I because we got part to now. Do you have more onthat or just hear his fussing brokes, putting back okay, yeah now you'reright? Okay, I'm gonna between this and next episode. I'm very obviously readit and just be like, but if you put a cat and Berts, what would that s? How Ie well he's in the weather get out, so I'm assuming this bruts himself likewhat else you wearing in fairy toe world. You know there's a Lo like adeal with him wearing boots, because you think he would like a cat. That'sdressed up as like a no, I think, you're totally right. But now I'mthinking like you know, given them the idea of stories in which is a broadthat there would be a thing where, like he needed, to find a pair of bootsbecause he knew that cats have to wear boots is because everyone finds. Oh, no,no, I'm imposing modern view of putting brutes, because everyone now findsputting boots like really cute for episode. Two. We will visit this yeah,I'm going to read all the pusson boots fairy tales and come back becauseyou're right and if you're not right, then precured up, but I don't think hedid now. That's a joke and I didn't get it well. I mean I was into posin footswhen I was a kid because he's a karate cat and I love cats or the O caroniknow you m grown again. I guess nanny's the Callum but yeah. Iwas really surprised how much I liked Greber, because I sort of remember itbeing a bit of a cheat gag like just this, like Oh there's, a guy and he'sacting like a cat and A. I think this is a really good for trial.Yes, so we like, where you are, I was going to ask you: Is he by Ronin? Idon't think so, you're kidding? No! No! This is your thesis, but we really haveto hash our definition of BYRONIC. He is a dangerous, violent, animalisticman in leather who is so like a post modernist playing around with a byroniccarry thing, but I didn't I just did not. I didn't feel it when I wasreading it. I wasn't going on. This is a Baroncio I was going. This is a cat,an dress tack was a man and a joke about it. I didn't really feel it. Idoe with our unloading. Everything give us like the one or two senters pitch onwhat a by run a hero is, which obviously comes from like being likelaw baron or lack low baron heroes. But what is the character time o Yo Someyraa Kara has some sort of secret pass which haunts them in their present.They often have a bunch of Weid relationships with, ladies that alsohaunt them after buying their characterized is oddly sex ibit in adangerous way that you should write that grebe right, yeah least sixty in adangerous way. I didn't, I didn't, find Grebo sexy, but he's described as Tusasthe an magnatism, but people can't resist. I didn't feel it I see wherecoming from, but I didn't feel it, and I don't know that pressure was goingfor it, but I definitely was like that's the yeah he's the irresistible.He has that charm about him when he goes to the ball. When he goes to theball, maybe yeah. Okay, I'm thinking don't hate, had any he's kicking off.The bowls of the counter is a fully grown man with leather on you here, notwinchat's. When he's being a cat. Okay, we maybe I'm going to be pedenti aboutthis in the post, baron by Rono Cura Way, yes I'll, give it to you yeah the brooding, when you say the theMenes, the brooding the past and everything you're. Getting like verytechnical. I like what is broadly the Byron her a well then I just say s adark here, he's a six red, dude yea, I guess so pretty do t. Then I go darkhero yeah, which is obvious. This is also esis yeah, so she's, very besserer,so in the injured to the first edition of the gifty of literature collection,but Lajos that someone might attempt a queer reading of grees leather, cladappearance and stacy. Hans takes up...

...this challenge in her two thousand a D:Five article, a pussy in black leather. Did you read this or Skim over it? Idid so I skimmed over this, and I was like okay yeah, I'm not feeling it. Itseemed a bit misguided and is based on very broad and stereotypicaldefinitions of Queenes die. I've seen secondary criticism of this articlesaying like yeah, it's a bit misguided. The word I'm music, I put in the exactcourts in the footmark, but as she points out, he does attend the Mascaradressed like a pirate that had just readed a ship having black leathergoods for the discerning customer, which we were saying it's Bironic, butit also just reminded me of to bias an arrested development seeing the rest ofdevelopment. No, he becomes a weather Daddy. I ends up on a pirate shipbecause he thinks he's going to a costume party, but he just wears us anember and is on a boat full of gay pirates, so that was fun yeah. I hadthat image. I just had the image of pussing boots at a party o Bele itcompletely. When I saw pussy and I ate- I was likeyeah, I'm right and Haines admits that he doesn't think there is muchdeliberate symbolism. I work on praches part AH, but says, there's a great deal of potentialusefulness for engaging clearness through Grebo and images like this, butshe is quick to distance herself from grew Bo as well, claiming that she hasnever met any one who identifies with the character who protect describes asa fat. Cunning, evil smelling multiple rapist, which is probably for the bestr yeah, almost certainly go. So that's aBi ricer right. I that kind of evil smelling. Multiple rapes may not soundbad. I evil smelling multiple refus tunning it was. They don't always feelbad. He I I ran over o yeah in Thu Eigt, twenty e, who was really vain, so hewould have been into perfumes and shit out. I want a heroes yeah. They want tosmell like adventure, yeah and sex and other things so grew be us on, because no Tokat and she says that Grebo is theonly recurring character who challenges the restrictions of his own form bycontroverting his original biological identity. She dismisses Anguar, though,with the way wolf from the watch, whose lock in form is a completely naturalfunction of for species, for what about the librarian, who was turning to an orretain of the selves to stay in a Rangin by the way that I ever talkabout grill when we were discussing that because I think that comes fromSpencer, Grill, yeah, okay, so inventive, there's a character thatacts like circean is turning character. Other characters into you know base torepresent. Are you lost full based there you're an hour, a hog or whatever,and there's grill, who gets turned into a bar or something, but when they turnthem all back, he doesn't want to be turned back in the line is like growerand have his hoggish ways, and that's I meant to to say that about theRangatang Librarian, but a it's really here can we will come back to that whenI get to the wizards book in the years as well. So, by the way when, when yousay Spencer, you mean Ena very queen yeah, that's the thing you do where youjust say the name of the author, which I know what I mean Grebes, also a familiar yep. He is NatYan, any oks cat, so he's the party of the FEMI. Now I tried to do someresearch into familiars because I'm interested in the animal angle andthings a hum, but there really isn't much, which is kind of weird RonaldHutton has a chapter on which is and animals in his book, for which he istrue, fear, which is which is probably the best place and most conferance. Ifyou are interested to go with a sort of read on that, so he says that inEngland the term familiar became applied to an evil spirit that did takehim animal shape, which is sort of the irony of Grebo. There is he's gone theother way yeah, but he says proper research intofamiliars didn't really begin until the early two Usan, and there have been noclearly defined schools of Lord with steady adherents to have developed fromthis research. So no one really knows it's. Just sort of this mush of animalsare associated for which is in for a call right, yeah, because the old ladywas only and she kept a cat right. That's really it makes sense. Yeah Nayber, the LestHutton, contends that the discussions of its origen has thrown up so manypossible explanations. She was minished have got a dodars. He says, there's been so many possibleexplanations that it's unlikely that any major new prime sources for theearly, modern English belief in the which is aninoe now remain to bediscovered. Now that seems a little bit o Hubristic, I'm quite a get smart. Wecouldn't possibly know, there's a jerk. Now you and there's acomedian, there's a comedian, a mat cushion from the UK who has a jerkwhere he is in an aeroplane and the lady next to was looking at the stuffand goes. Oh, isn't it amazing how these plans for how do you think theydo that? I guess we'll never know you like! Well, you are. It is sort of the slit, grady, Wethera, yeah yeah, myGrad will know, but granny never will granny will just fly but yeah. I guessthat's Hurtin going new. Well, I gets...

...there's nothing more to me discovered I couldn't find anything, but if anyonewas going to find something, it'll probably be here so fair enoughpossible sources. He identifies include Egyptian magicians, very helplessspirit, Shamans and the FIR Motif of the grateful animal. I rescue cat, theYEA yea a only in Britain. He says the the TROPE ismercy drawn from a common stock of late, medieval and other European ideas aboutdemons. So Pierre de Lancre, who shares name with it, yea the French which into Guy Argue from a theological basis like King James Demonology, but suchanimals had to be shape. Shifting devils, since the animals ridden toSotenah tes, could not be real base as they usually flew through the sky yea.I saw flying cat this morning. Hope in your eyes a no. They haven't involved for that, foryou, O yeah, so e Peck, able logic there from the fort et century bridge,which Ante and the myth that which is sealed packs with their familiars byfeeding them their own blood from hidden teats became yeah. Well, that'slike that's, not truly a be, they would have it like under their arms andthings that was to hide their extra boobs. Anyone were the third nipeswhich that's how you can tell if they float or if they, however, before thatit was said that they merely made friends with the animals by feeding thebread and milk. So really we circle all the way, an youso red the gray week. I think a milk, therefore, I can and therefore yes,that's hotting, which is a good article except he does everyone. Does it, and Ithought happen was better than this, but he does throw in a ways in whichwhich is so. That brings us to the witches themselves. I don't have toomuch this time on the history of I mean I had a lot, the wizard of as and andsleeping beauty. That's going to come later, but I did want to know that thethe acknowledgment of the broomstick Englis when granny weather ack says itwas bad enough. Regret telling me about Mehole and what's behind him, addingwistfully that she used to enjoy. Looking at mayport fall of re won were here, then ye look at theother ones. There was a lot more. They talk about. Someone brings back afertility idel which they call a sex object and there's a lot about thatimplying it to to to, but I think the best bit was when nanny she goes. Wordshave sex in foreign parts YEA SA Nanny. Hopefully the world have sex. So far aswe get. This is a very funny book right. I O yeah. We also get a reference to so he we anyOlga, remembers hearing about some old enchantress in history. He lived on anisland and turned shit, reck sailors into pigs and then an well you had. Thecourt which I had made in not of is well and migrate, says that's aterrible thing to do, yeah, which then that is seen by the others of whiningits warning yeah. Now I just think it's interesting, but it's my grat reallythinking about like witchcraft from the history of witchcraft and doing thething that Grannie doesn't do. You know my I were talking about for for she's,like she's thinking, she's, actually, a vilain yeah he's like t and then they're like, but then Iween many hogs like yeah. I just want to trap a hundred sailers on my islandyeah. Maybe we ani think I just my grand yeah, but this this books, not so muchof our witches per se, as very God, mothers in the disco, companion, ferrygood mothers, are EFFICI defined by project and breaks as a specializedform of which, with particular responsibility for the life of oneindividual or a group of individuals, okay, there, which, with a charge, Iguess in the firt floor of this word Pratchett and Jacqueline Simpson, whois a fork lorist, also likened them to the southern European myth of thesupernatural woman who bestowed wishes and gifts upon you born babies,explaining that, although more were on, we refer to as ladies from outside orladies who must not be named. They were a kind of ferrier that wouldarrive on the third night after the birth, and there were always three ofthem. I mean these are the the ones we weretalking about from the Colt commits a macbeth and stuff last at the same, andthey would also bestow gifts upon the child and exchange for bounteousofferings of food, which we get a bit of that in and is would go with. NannyRoun yeah she demands who ever when they go yeah. So we already had someengaging with the idea of fairy God, mothers and Weird Sisters with thewhich is pos as John Tom's, very grandmothers, which it notably is atmigrates ion ash's the one who becomes, though yeah yeah yeah, that theoriginal fairy God mother in which is a broad, is desiderata hollow, and wetalked about her naming a bit last episode as layer brabants in theAnatidae desideria literally translated means things missing and felt to beneeded, so sort of wishing M sor. This is the round. A hollow is Holler wishes,but yeah this again. I think this an some wait on my think, where I'm tryingto work out what what was he name? The last book, the Tariff Lady Alis, alistomarriage yeah. The idea that, like her...

...name, has to mean something. So that'sstill the best theory. I've got but yeah just pointing out that project isnaming these, which is he's connotating with their names, connoting connotated,connecting parting Soren, her article trapped furtile in Pratchett and luckyin the two thousand and fifty gender form, especially to our crochets worksor Dr Tayler Compares, which is abroad with merces. Like he's two thousand andfour novel, the Fairy Godmother, which is a reinterpretation of Cinderellawhere the Cinderella analog, becomes the apprentice to her fairy godmotherand has to make a duch bag prints into a decent person. Hmm Yeah, that's hand,familiar yeah, so have you ever heard of this book for time I mean I, don'treally do a lot of re pomona tales. No, nor did I and take a lost Monteathferry town. You know to read yeah, but I'm too qualified a that's a real thing. I know, but yeahthere's a thing in the book called the tradition which forces people to act asthey would in fairy tales and stories which becomes harder to break in timeas it's repeated right so yeah. This is this is, which is a broad right. Yeah tTaylor doesn't really argue anything in this oicleus like that say you knowpretty much I mean I don't have a go there, but I didn't really yeah. Theredidn't seem to be a through one other than the both of them use parody tosuburb very tall, and it's like again that that's the first line of the saynot the end: Yeah, that's sort of Agivin she's done the the grady weatherbacks yea, so yeah. Where does this idea of theferry God another come from? We do they come from Josh, so so I'll, just all hethat one yeah well, I was actually pretty surprised that Berry God,mothers don't actually appear in grins fairy tales. I found that surprisingsort of your good. I mean there might be one some one on double check to okay.Well, if they do appear they're, not prominent, they come instead from theseventeenth century, French fairy tales of Madame Donnay and child for yeah,which is a name I've heard of because he's had Disney movies M tea. Dono isthe originator of the Tome fairy tales so on. No one really knows who she is:That's, rather a significant contribution to inside. That's why?Okay Donno is the originator of the time free tales and our fairy Godmothers are featured in her story. Is the Blue Bird, the white dog, thebeauty with the golden hair? So it's a go is as the Goldie locks year and finit send on or cunning cinders. This is a Cinerarius story. There's a velvetslipper and a magical chest of cloth that I do it. Yeah is where some ofthese ideas are coming from, but Marina Warner argues in her one thousand ninehundred and ninety four book, the beast and the blonde. Not at the ashbys often figured themselves inthe towers. They wrote as their fairy godmothers right, which got to makesense right if the fairy God mother is meant to be the guide. So so I don'tknow just sees an interesting point m there's also another interestingconnection to the lot of the rings where you have the the Golan characterwho shows up and they wack him on the head with the or yeah. This is the Ineed a word for this. We we're going to come out with a word for the like whatis the quote from a book that every Sol the scene that every single articletalks about Marco like we had the Grannie defining, which in which amagic vehicle rides the wind, shall we through met again wites es everyarticle that talks about which is abroad. I mean they talk about thisstore shape of stories, cascading down the mountain, but they talk about thego scene for no reason. Huh, none of them say anything about it, right,they're, just like yeah and then there's a reference to Golam as wellfairy tales and Lord of the Rings, but they always like go on a length aboutthe gold scene without making a point about it, and when I was reading it, Ijust kipped over him and year gone okay, but I found a one thousand nine hundredand ninety seven masters thesis on the use of formulas in Terry practice,discord series which is by not or Nutso who was not tatis world character. Hein him like hell, Yeah Yeah. So now Notson- who actually makesa point about this, so I thought it was really insight full- and I didn't saythis anywhere else. He says that the depiction of the God mother's MagicWand, an Magra, Hannold despare, all of it in the swamp, is reminiscent of thedestruction of Saron's rolling ring in the last book of Tokens or of the rethought of that. When I saw it when I saw when I read her Chopini M, like Ihopefully codes, not some acknowledges that the parallels that sort of at yourright throwing a one in this one throwing a bring in a volcano, but whatmakes it a probable comparison and probably an intended one- is the use ofGalam earlier yeah K, and this is prone argument. Yeah. Everyone else points tothe gon came, are without making anything of it. Just whereas Nuttinobserves that the use of this reference, a reference to go on, reinforces thetheme about the corrupting influence of power by linking the comparatively weakwand, with an instrument of much greater power that proses a much greatthreat. So, actually talking about how gone functions in the story and thenwhen nanny box him on the head, that's not just a rejection of fantasy. Yes, Idon't think that's what practice on...

Pruche loves fantasies playing aroundin IT. It's a rejection of the last for power. I yea is the corrupted dude. Shegoes there done yeah, so it was really annoying me reading all these peopletalking about going for no reason- and I was like Notson- you've done it so of course, as with all of preches,which is not also, what which is bors really about. Is that power of storiesnot the power of love, Jesus smote, no model Commere, is it he nears and whichis a broad thin. This is the other bit that everyone says in their articles.Prejet explains that stories very existence. Arvale is a fate butinsistent patent on the chaos that his history stories, ch Grooves, deepenough for people to follow. In the same way, the water follows certainpaths down. A mountain side is a good it's a messy for it, maybe for as aMayford, and this contrast with villain of the book or anywhere the Axis SisterWilleth, who will talk more in death about in part two who tries to forcethe actual world into the patterns that so neatly down in fiction, which istreated as a violation of the natural or accept discord, runs on narrateryeah. So I'm not sure, what's going on here, so yeah, it's not properlydefined until the first since of this quate novel, which C O One thousandnine hundred and ninety nine, but it's still present right. You've got stufflike in the league books, the tending the so that they win, because one and ahundred chances work nine times out of ten or what whatever the joke is andend. The whole premise of diswade is that it runs on story logic and yes, sowills is Ned to flanking this. Well, Luke is not to find the natural order.She is reinforcing the natural order. Are you doing there prate and yeah? We get a bit of this in thenext novel as well. In lots of ladies, where there's like conflicts betweenfolk law and belief and stuff, that does seem out of step with the broadidea of yeah that narrative causality of discord itself. What's he doing wellhe's using them to subvert it and poke at him, but yeah, I don't know thathe's like a mad scient, sometimes he's just like tapping away at his keyboard.So you may maybe we'll get into that a bit more okay in part to when we wantwe really go in on wet, but the particular story is that he is sittingsites on in which is abroad or fairy tales, and we're going to examine thatsome of those yeah so yeah. I think the way were dividingthe episodes up. As I said, the top is this is everything on the way toJanuary, and then next episode is taking or and everything aft Er, Oh, myfavorite kind of curs work on s so here were can to talk about thefairy tales that they run into on on the road to Genuis, that is sleepingbeauty, red riding hood west of as there's also mentions of stuff. Likeruble skill, skin and Goe locks and things so we're going to talk aboutthem and then the genuine fairy tales that were genuine a m or I just gotthat that's delivered. Isn't it come yeah? Now it is it's all about breakingthe marriage. That's called Epiphany. Jenette fairytells in that second part well talked about a things like Cinderella andthat's the big one snow. Why the frog prints, which actually have a crazinsay that give that a throwaway line in the book and there's another one inthere as well he's undermining the is these fairy tales through parody, likewe said he was doing with Shakespeare in which is abroad, but he'sparticularly taking aim at the lessons that these fairy tales are in partingand the ways they're suggesting that people should behave so jack, sips,who's, Yoga of Fairy towl studies and specializes in fairy tell revisionspomonas till it is as an ones era. He says. Almost all critics agree thateducated writers of Literary Fairy Tales Purposely appropriated the horror,folk tale and converted it into a type of literary discourse about Mars valuesand manners, so that children would become civilized according to thesocial code of that time. So yeah, that's just saying that fairy tales areas much as they're being repeated, they're, also being rewritten m. Soit's interesting what morals are carried through and how how thosemodels of that which will work it a bit more and as the first one fairytalescholar, Keven, Pole Smith, explains this often required an ideologicaladaption on behalf of the literary transcribers from concerns of the ruralpresentry, from whom the tales come to those of the bourgeoise parents,anxious to raise moral children yeah. So he sat tin, perkiss example of howthe witch's house in handsome Grete was originally made from bread rather thanGingerbread, as we discussed in the last episode and how the tale thereforeshifted from being about real anxiety about famine to middle class concernsabout greediness children right yeah. So it's no longer about don't feed yourkids because you weren't havenue eat. It's now don't feed you kids, becausethey'll get fat and be a little shits, HM and Smith conducts a particularexamination of which is abroad. In his chapter on Terry Cratchetts, fertile inversions in his two thousand and seven book, the prison very title Hmmm, henotes the process of Ferte. I sing as...

...about a feminist revises in that hisrevisions highlight the patriarchal assumptions underlying the classicalfairy tale and change the stories in order to make them more equitable withwhich is a broad specifically showing now. Oh, hey curious, specificallyshowing how the fairy, how can be a negative force used to make peopleconform to societal rules? We would agree with that yeah we would- and thisis what he's talking about with the feminist revisers. This was a trend,the late sivis heating, Thir House, with eminis yeah. I mean the bigexample of that is a Gilcott is the bloody chamber which we'll talk aboutmore next episode will be that's the other fairy tale, but I can talk thatnes yeah. There's lots of examples of these throughout the is and he's sayingthat prached sort of follows in that tradition, and he identifies eight ways.Fair Tales, operate intertexture within mass produce fiction, suggesting thepredates of fairy tales in which is abroad is primarily an example ofelement. Five fevier Bloomin, because revision is one really of blooms. LeadGreek terms, yeah the categories he divides them up into authorized is hisexplicit references to a fairy tale in the title. When you say hey, this issleeping beauty m Rigdale, which is an implicit reference, but that'ssomething where it's a like. Like the red, the bloody chamber. Okay, is an exthat where it's not saying this is Bobedt's telling you what's blue beerthrough what references incorporation, which is when a story has a fairy towewithin it. You also have illusion, which is just other fery Telemacho.Does that a lot so yeah, then you got revision, which is what he's talkingabout with, which is abroad and the feminist revisions which is taking atail and we riding it fabulation, which is crafting an original fairy tale msorry ere still playing around with those trips and things he does giveexamples of all these that did not write them down. There's metafordiscussions of fairy tales is category seven on the last category is anarchitectural or coronate fairy tale setting so in a Bee Tang, whatever yeah,something like that move, seeing it in a fairy tell so I mean obviously precisusing a blend of all of these, and I think revision has like four differentsubsections, an ah that he talks about and yea. So he says primarily you likeit. He used all these, but primarily procures revising protais, rewritingthem to you, know: Londons Tann, SOMOTI standards and and different ideas, andalso metafor, which is where you you know have the which is literallycommenting on this is a fairy town. This is how stories were to clarifythat a bit Smith defines revision, has any new version of a fairy towe,whether it's a Disney adaptation or a person on rewriting. He appeals desideshis definition, who he refers to the Almighty Rad at which defines revisionas looking at something carefully over with a view to improving or correctingit to re examine in order to approve or men who is Winonah very blue man, hisliterary theory of influence yeah. So it's a pretty. You know standarddefinition of revising, but there's an emphasis are correcting there and Zabsads that as a result of transform values, the revised classical fairytale seeks to alter the readers view of traditional patterns, images and codes.This does not mean that all revised classical fairytales are improvementsor progressive. However, the premise of a vision is that there is somethingwrong with the original work that needs changing for the better right. Whyrevise it if the original still good yeah, to make a money? So that's that's revision, as forMETAFOR Smith, defines mediation into textual. Ty has any instance when aphorty is commented upon or when the fairy tale is analyzed in the criticalway with their text. That's manufactor, yeah, it's matter of fictor. I think that project also usesprominent elements of element three in corporation m. So that's when the fairtale is explicitly referred to in a text I mean, I guess he doesn't saythis is sleep in beauty, but he may as well their illusions. The story of thefairy tells themselves are in the book: It's not just referencing. All this islike sleeping beauty. Sleeping Baudy happens within with systeme right, andI think it applies because which is abroad is its own story, rather than arevise fairy tale itself. So this is also yeah. This is also fabulation. Allright crafting your own fertile, which is a broad itself, is a moralizing forevery time. Yea, a yeah, that's good, there's, also and perhaps mostpressingly. The pattern recognition subset of revision right, which iswhere the illusion is not so much to the content of fairy tales, but theynor obstruction. So this is stuff like a trick. We haveonce upon a time, and they lived happy ever after which, which is abroad,doesn't do so much mostly because it don't runs in the opposite direction.Yeah I mean this is what which is a broad is graphic with yeah, so werevisit that element a bit more in the next episode. I think, and Smith doessay that revision incorporates structural similarities as well. Soit's not like he's overlooking these things, but I wanted to emphasize thema bit. So with this in mind, let's turn to some of the Fairy Tales Projectmetaforally revisers in which is a broad led, so the primary source forthe fairy tales and perhaps the most famous and inferential ferry tale.Authors are the brothers grim who collected and edited versions of GermanFairy Tales for children yeah. They...

...were doing this from thousand eighthundred D E, O o eight hundred and fifty seven Iron Age yeah as with wellwell. Well, yeah. I still don't know how to say that it's just well, but ifI just say well, you don't think it's well. Well, it yeah. So as with whilethere is a dis world analogue for the brother's groom, thankfully not ananachronistic one, this time in the form of the sisters, grim on, which is more fun, yeah, who areagonizer and a visere and as a groom in a Visuram who are real fairy tales withlots of blood and burns and bats and rats in and that's from, the amazingmarice. One of the main characters in the amazing aries is the great niece ofthe sisters grime got to in about four years and a copy of their grim fairytales is also central to the plot of thief of time. HMAN, both amazingworries and they've time coming out two thousand and one so he's obviously gotthese fairy tales again on the brain interesting. It's kind of ironic thatyeah they're emphasized as the you know, the real fairy towers, a lot of bloodsand barons of bats and rats. The Grooms Fairy Tales are very tame and areactually the cleaned up versions of the only original yeah yeah. They have thereputation for being darker than the Disney versions, but they themselvesare cleaned up for yeah, yeah, there's, definitely intorno Wallace, whosetheses we discussed in the weird sisters, episode with sisters and WildWomen. She observes that the grooms collections contain several tailsfeaturing, which is as primary antagonists and their tales. She says:Constructor, which character made up a various wicked female archetype, suchas the wigged step, mother, the Woodland Hag and the Diabolical Tentrutwho offers forbidden knowledge, which is often sexual maple, Wal Sorsogon. The transition of theferry toe which, from ru anti mother, as we discussed last averse to wickedstepmother, was part of this effort to conform to the needs of the nineteenthcentury urban, which, as e right right. How is she also claims that the highrates of death and childbirth for early modern rural women and the usual quickre marriage of their widowers meant that the presence of the stepmother inthe rural home was more of an exception? That's so she's making out of adepressing well stepmothers are a common feature because of a Sir yeah,but then she's also saying the stepmother was an update, an a movingout of the rural things. So there seems to be a contradiction there, I'm notsure which one it is. Okay. Interestingly, as Marina Tarde notes inher one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven book the hard facts of thegrooms fairy tales, do you want to do anything with that? The hard facts? Noonly that alone, yeah tote notes that, in contrast to the corruption oflanguage associated with Shakpe, weird sisters, the Grims, which is almostnever cast verbal spells or conjurations. So then they're not doingthis language thing that we were talking about in Macbeth. The just meyeah yeah wars also points out ruth, be Bodine,Mer, M, H, R, one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven analysis of the moraland social vision of the grim's tales wherein she observes that the grimmsgood women are overwhelmingly refrain from speech and only speak in responseto male characters and doesn't pass the back built test. No, they sure do not.I mean that's Sam, pretty thorough analysis going on there. She alsoidentifies answered as the verb most commonly implied of good femalecharacters. Yeah. How do you like that? I don't Jus, I don't like the contact,but this this is the kind of scholarship I like. Oh, a good Koshiuwent to a Canada, the ants it's no nice control in this is no. This is not a soso really counted. Yeah, you kind of get a no you, but a time bottom Charleyand Sadar spoke is reserved to witches and other wicked women. So I don't knowif how deliberate that is. I imagine that's like an implicit sort of yeahsubliminal. So there's this idea that if a woman is a search if she's Abeland you must cut out or town yeah and Banat Yeah, so law says this just goesto show how the grooms editing took more and more speech out of the mouthsof good women and put in the mouths of evil ones. Even the line. The onlything that took care of having said that the fairy talesproject plays with his, which is abroad, don't actually feature that manywitches yeah and he doesn't really focus on them, which is in the onesthat do he's, focusing on the moral implications of the stitches responseto them, yeah, rather than the specifical problem. The specific potray which islike he did in weird sisters hm so the first story, they're running into onthe way to January is one that includes a witch. It's one that I have a lot tosay about and that sleeping beauty which preciate already did in wedsisters. It was one of my favorite parts right they're, putting the kingof sleep M and that actually engaged with the bitches there. Here it's aboutthe implications of sleeping beauty herself and the female readers that sherepresents m. So the first thing I want to talk about sleeping beauty is thepower of true love. I iced in my mouth I into true love. Ithink it's Nice Fun jerk, but I warn hm...

...oh well over. I don't yeah you go forhard, yeah, grandy, weather axt criticizes the story saying cuttingyour way through a bit of Bramble is how you can tell he's going to be agood husband. Is it yeah, no Dass it God would cover so mad. I was tellingout to go to the physio because I started spitting it again, so I'm notmade the card, I'm a doomed bachelor it you're in a montames a listener. Sorry I'm not available. We had so many requests that I thoughtI should you know it stand signed up to the patron, but they have signed up tomy own a year, an the fans. I've gone there all right, so we've established thatbeing able to hack your way through shit isn't good. He have wed because,yes, ah he's right, go on well. Smithreflects granny weather axis concerns wondering if Sleeping Bey's rescue willresemble the Gentil Prince, who wakes the heroine with a kiss in the GRONS,or will it be the prince who raps the Sleeping Batan? She was still chromatesin the older bodio version of the tail. This is good to a just to finish thatten, it sounds the older body aversion of the Tail Sollut Lia in Basil'sPentemeron, Nice Sand, Pentemeron. No, I don't think I said that Muratore NotFrim, pretty sure it doesn't wrong with macaroni a here we are. This brings usto the first two PODCAST, listen to in preparation for this. The other one wasthe Disney princess death battle, which was a far A. I cut that out that attwenty minutes of our speaking like is no or a princess, but that was the Disney story. Originspodcast, which is hosted by a guy named Paul J Hale, who compares Disneyadaptations, are very tales to their souls. Material Sounds Hum. It's apretty good podcast. I don't love his sense of humor, but yeah. It's verythorough, it's sort of surface level, but he does a good job, but in thesleeping media episode he loges that seeping beauty does actually representtrue love. His argument is based on pros version from E T: U N Sixteen andNinety seven, which is called the sleeping beauty in the wood, not thethe rape, a macarana there. The princess is not working by a kiss, but she awaits naturally just becausethe curse has ended. Okay, the prince doesn't actually wake year up yeah, soit doesn't touch it at all M, favorite, so far, yeah and that common sides withthe prince coming to rescue her but she's, already awake when he gets thereand then they fell in o well. Okay, so I'll read that I've got the old outAlice read, shall I read says: Alice Tree Gossip Yeah Yeah. Do you want toread this big parer since the end of the enchantment had come? The princesswoke up and gazing at him, with greater tenderness in her eyes than might haveseen proper at a first meeting she said is that you, my prince what a long timeyou have kept me waiting delighted at these words and store more by the tonein which she said them. The prince did not know how to express his gratitudeand joy, but he told her that he had loved her more than himself. That'snice, although what he said was badly expressed. It pleased her all the morethe greatest of is the least eloquent of the two of them. She was the lesshung tied, which is not surprising, since she had had the time to think ofwhat she would say. They spent four hours talking to each other and stillhad not said the half of what they wanted, that I will allow right, sothey do little meat cut, they don't even kiss and just like, hang out andmeet each other, and I'm like. Oh, I love Canna yeah. This is the guysargument now you're like no, it's like. No. Actually, if you read it, okay,this this, I go with m. After this, they also have supper together in awhole line with mirrors hi yeah. I just bring that up because of the Les PinchOn for reflective surfaces will get to impart to poor, who attaches explicitmoral explanations to all of his tale. So is that the moral of sleeping beautyis for girls to wait a while, so that they may wed a loving husband, handsome,rich and kind, and that lovers lose nothing if they wait and tie them notof marriage and late Yep, but also, why do girls have to wait a while? Whycan't? Why can it be girls and guys? Yes, this is this. Is The standard ofthe talk on the major at lineations and, of course, here marriage is code forsex yeah. At the same time, pro says, another moral is to stay in bed addinga hundred years, asleep you'll never find such patience in a girl. Today seeI read that in the notes and just like he did some slot shining right Ye. Youcan read in the first one where it's like. Oh you know, wait for your true,loving and everything but yeah. This is still so yeah God. That's also says offor sleeping beauty that the unknown princess being endowed with beauty, thetemper of an angel grace the ability to dance perfectly, the voice of anightingale and musicality by her fairy godmothers his bread to become theideal, Aristocratic Lady. She is expected to be passive and patient fora hundred years until a prince, rescues and resuscitate her with her docilityand self abandonment being rewarded in the end when the prince returns to setthings right. So, even though he's not kissing her or whatever you'retalkingher she's, not yet she's waiting...

...for the prices of the answer thing, shedoesn't get to be her own, an active yeah but now agency, and this actuallybrings back in the Disney princess death match thing where, when theyrented all the princesses sleeping beauty was dead lost because sheliterally does nothing for the entire Bresee Gulls, but t e ous, it's like named after her O.Yes, so we could say she won in a way anyway, or the other thing we. While wetalked about the name, I did mention before that the grimsby tail version iscalled briant Rose M. that's the M fiking. The road t is that it's alsojust her name is Brios she's, not a roar. That's brought in you know, butalso is it because the castle is covered by brow, so brow rose over thecastle, I mean, and these are fortal that are transmitted Orly, where thingsare used as a neumonic devices. So like they're in just the name of the story,you have an what's my character's name, what happens to her and then whathappens all in all in one yeats, nice yeah, so that's true, love morepermanently to which is abroad is the Potray of witches and Hal also has aninteresting theory about the witching sleeping video as well. He speculatesthat maleficent and she's called in the Disney version, might be a camion now.Do you know what it can be in a als? Okay, don't use that tone with me? Well, I was this is one of those thingswhere I was getting ready for you to be like. Not only do I know what I can be,I wrote the book on Kai wanted a cat one, because I what sickness well, theexample O is is Kalvan from the tempest you know is a what is it a cabin? is ahalf human half devil? Hybrid? Oh, how did I not know that exactly that's whyI was getting ready for you. This asteead, the table he gives is calibanfrom Shakespeare's tempers Yep. Who is the son of the African which SigartYeah? So we also got the fear of racial assignation going on here so of inrelation to the walks things in an sing academicals. Another famous Cambion isthe architype was in Merlin, true ether and legends who we talked a bit abouton the go right podcast, but some old evasions even cast him, as theAnticristo makes me happy to know right, including the anonymous fourteencentury French romance the Pes Forest which contains the earliest nernversion of the sleeping beauty tale h. So there you are eh this all stuff, ahall digs up on his podas. This is an original stuff here, but yeah we'lltalk a bit more about sleeping bides orages in a second, but to finish up onCambions. Their creation is detailed in the MALIAC who argues that demonscannot reproduce because they lack souls and Holy God, and this is delvesand the ox thing again, and only God has the power of creation with humananas been gether commission and because they are metaphysical and carntinteract with humans or the physical world. They can't exist, but the Biblesays they use is so. Therefore they do exist. So HESA lot of pages that I readall of trying to logically justify the existence ofdemons and canyons and the best he comes up with is that demons can't getpregnant or reproduce, but they can turn into incubuses succubis, which isthe female one. Yeah succubis is Asi. This is sociis, is and have sex withmen and take their sperm, and then they can't reproduce, but they can corruptthis form, while it's inside them again. This is the creation vestes Cupio there,and then they turn into in giuse and have sex with the lady to impregnanther with the demons farm. It's a lot of way e. It seems like by Ou re producinright also to bring it back to prech it. Iwas looking through some of these short fiction as a tail called cits call it'slike inky bust, also, and it's bad none of us that has a premature ejaculation as man than if I show enough. That islife as like. We we get ready is like sorry. This never happens. It's like a one big story finish us is incubi yeah, so yeah, althoughthey can't reproduce themselves, they transfer to the women you to do that,and I think that's where we get change things and Carians from according tothe millies move of for Carm Yeah. I weren't read through all of this andwas going to go into more detail, but it wa was too much. I pulled therecorder heart yeah, that's that yeah. Now this is somewhat irrelevant, sincethe music in the Disney version all comes from the chicos KI belly. Fronthousand eight hundred and eighty nine, whether which is an evil ferry namedCarabus, whose name is taken from a similar character in Donnay's tail, thePrincess Mary Boston. So he gets rid of this sort of devil image, but theDisney version, the most people are familiar. With these days I mean theDisney versions of the sort of Canonical Mon one right M, mostlyderived from poros tolling and in the Disney film malifice is describedexplicitly as a wicked witch, although, as I'm discovering from reading allthis stuff, which is not so much your body, a granny, whether e act, you atme, which is an occupation like a fairy, can be a witch, a Cambioncan be a witch which is a magic user.

So it's not like. There is a race ofwitches, a sorry, she's, still a fair, because part, two of them leverson thatI watched the men turned off. They do describer as a powerful fee, so she's afairy economically in Disney, but in the grooms version the spell iscaused by a wise one who wanted to get revenge for not having been invited tosleeping beauty's birthday party. Come again. I mean this happens in theDisney a they invite all the so this happens in all the visions, but there'snever any bitch or in Perris version. All the fairies in the country areinvited to be godmothers for the little princess, and it says, except for anaged fairy, who had not been invited because for more than fifty years shehad never left the tower she lived in so that she was believed to be dead. Sothis is mature women being discriminated against by society. Iit's. The red running is a broad ah, but it's also. That is a justification.We send this lady in a hundred years, she's probably dead. We don't need toinvite here, whereas in all the other versions they just don't invite her,which sort of does give you the the maleficent flip around, where it's likeyeah I'd, be pissed her, like every other ferry, yeah yeah. Soit's not really clear. You know exactly what the witches are in these verytales and at changes around all the time, but as Smith observes of Pache'sconflation of witches and fairy godmothers in which is abroad, becauseagain, Malifia is a fairy God. Mother he's a which he's a fairy ANAPOTAallows the reader to see how, whichever way one looks at it on the level andpresence in these fairy tales is always an old woman, whether beer, they arefairy a which it doesn't matter what they are there, always an old lady. SoM yes yeah. So I said I wanted to talk a little wit about the history ofsleeping beauty yeah. I thought this would be a particular interest to youplus is just fucking call. So, as we said, the earliest inversion of thestory comes from the persoe which was composed between the hundred and thirtyand thirteen. Forty four that all and it was first published in Giberatie.Sixteen thirty four collection, the Pentameron, that's the macaroni one andpopular rise by CAER HMMM. It's French fairy tale which the grins usuallywould have omitted from the collection of German tells right so at theirjustification, for including a version of sleeping pity. In the grips fairytales is a loose connection to the norse Demanin legend of Bran Hilda, whoappears in the thirteenth century, Germanic, evict, poem, Nibble, Gallandand the late Icelanders, Sago, fine, yeah, so bred hell did. You know BrenHilda now, because you've redacted the Pi Haver. That's what because I yooswell ride is a elker who was awakened by the hero Cigar after he slays adragon and rides to the top of a man where he finds a sleeping run out. Ersurrounded by a terror of shields that are lit on fire and she's chained downshe's got armor on the armor is like a prison. He cuts the armor off her rimswith her skin, so he cuts the armor away from her skin and freezer, whichis like way cool than a kiss yeah. That's nice right- and this is this- isa curse. That's been put upon her by Odin after she refused to marry. Oh I'mnot sure. If it's Mary Oden, I think it's just Mary in general, yeah, soshe's, you know, she's a strong, independent woman, there's no real romance Sigurd leaves her and then brings hisfriend King Gunna or Ginther to marry her he's so rather being like I'verescued a Frenches like I'm just coming out. This mountain found this sicktower shit on fought my way through color this or if it was a hot chit. I'mlike I've got my bro He's a king. I gonna get him you guys yeah, HMM! Shecomes back and she's still living on the mountains, surrounded by the wallof flame and said she will only marry the man who can ride through the flame,O, O n just Bat's, actually a very good plan. I, like her, that's how shethinker, through the fine walsing sitting nick I'm, come on Dur the flamebring a fire but yeah and gone can go on. He can'tdo it, so he got shape ships into him and he's able to do it as gonna, and hemarries her. That seems like just rent to what it is, but he doesn't consumatethe marriage. Ironically, given a feliciter, he puts a sword in betweenthem, so they can't have sex I've heard of that yeah and then he switchesplaces back. So now it's the real God and then later they reveal the rusesand she's like hey, that's dude. So now you guys are going to fight. So I knowwhich one of he is. The best actually hush be is like kitely kill to well sogood, a wins. The fight spit cigar been the hero o the whole time. Go wins thefight, but bring hilder is ashamed that she married the lesser hero. So shekills herself her body as cigars are born together and I maybe they hadstarted off so cool and ended up so bad. I it's a tragedy. Right but she hadfemale agency and then it was gone, but I like the idea that she killed herselfrather than marry a pis week, King and go to Valpre. Heaven with a real herois a better ending. If you know that you're going to heaven and be velpenheaven yeah all right, I should do jump on the pirate than having to marry Dickhave the ending you know or she married the king, Yeah Yeah, okay, so what I'monto he is there? Is there a connection to Brittimon m? No, I'm not reallysorry, really, just like that up er.

What's what's the thing, the White, whycome back five them in pretty Sir yea? I that is like no. I wish yeah, Imether's, obviously something going on with valcares and things, but nothingspecific. Okay to refresh the listness Brita Il was the Rio Eamon's, the coolprotagonist in book. Three of a mins pens is the ferry quit yeah she's, justthe world who rides around hits people with still I love it. YEA and a stickis meant to represent the fact that, like she's got a dick like and t t,that's her masculine energy that she has stones. People yeah, I pictor a reason. Oh yeah, just just another cool thingis that in pros version the good fairy who puts out a sleep to save her lifeafter she, excepting one thing, I'm assuming people are familiar with thestory of sleeping beauty, but she is given the news instantly that Brioroses has pricked herself and fall asleep by a dwarf with seven leagueboots and- and she shows up an hour later in a chariot of fire drawn bydragons yeah, so way, cooler than the Disney versionand Disney. I did. The maths on the seven league boots and far to travel.Twelve thousand leagues instantly would mean that he'd have to travel between aquarter and a fifth at the speed of light. I don't think it's worth goinginto, but I don't think they had that geography down Pat Yeah. Well, even around trip and a Noli means the dwarf in the chariot must have been travelingin a rage of one hundred and thirty three thousand three hundred forty fourclimates an hour. So these tales are not scientifically rigorous. What, ifyou're going to say instantly when t is call N, instant boot, seven leagueboots put a value on it, have to be the guy on. Excuse me, yeah last thing we're at the end of thesleeping baby section. This is what a section of called sleepy beauty. Sothat is the surprise and I do know, there's a whole section called sleepingmade. Surprise I say a whole section under night words we're going to getthrough this very quickly. So if I can pull a what's his name, not my garberwho's, the other guy, who is the go Colombo Ikioi to lumbo. For a secondsay, just one more thing about sleeping beauty in pros version, the princerefuses to marry sleeping beauty and keeps their relationship a secret.Because his mother, the Queen Court, came from a family of urges. Oh, I toldread: It was even whispering cold that she herself had overseen. Yes, whichmeans she eats people, that's what organ Orga just means a cannibal: it'snot a monster in the old fairy tales, so this is a reverse, ran to where theprince says the fairy. The fair saves the lady and has to protect it from theorgeuil rather than the a yeah. The king, who only made the reason hemarried an Argot Queen, is because she's learned yeah. So he married herfor lots of money, which is another thing that these very tales I realizeis that we're putting all this true love thing on, but when they werewritten back in the feudal times, true love had nothing to do with it. So thatis a modern imposition yea. He only made the CRAN for money. Then he dies,so the prince becomes the king, the one who saves sleeping beauty and he makeshis marriage public as well as their two children that they've had in secretall the years. Not because he's like. Yes, I am king now, so I can come outof the wall. Look. He then immediately goes on a holiday, okay, come which point the Queen Mother, the Oga,sits about trying it Stutt Cook. The way they get out of this is the cooksubstitutes, other animals, so she's like cook that kid, and then he hidesthe kid and is that a chicken you know that's better. This is this is a la. Ithink this is in one of the snow, whites or something it's one of theother fairy tales ins like this. Obviously this is a trip. That's gotlate, O somewhere. That is the end of a sleeping mutisection with the surprise, reverse reck at the end. So yes, but that's just oneof the fairy tales they encounter, we also have there's mentions of Rapunzelas a sorcerous in it, you run rumple skilled skin. I've not had a t thateven feel like. I know a rumple still o still skins about eats kids. No, no soruble still kin is the lady who I think, she's locked in a tower and told shecan't leave or something until she spends the Hay industral and thenrubble still to an those up he's like a magical, legrain man who said I can dothat, but you have to promise me you, like your marriage or your first one orsomething right, and she agrees tentation story and is the only waythat you you can get out of this, as if you guess my real name and she can'tguess his real name but then you're over hers. I think maybe the birds tellher or something in one of these versions. Bunte someone over hears hisname and tells her, and then she knows his name is runklet again and then heturns to wood or something okay. I heard somewhere- and I couldn't findthis when I was looking that, because at the end he gets really mad and hestamps his foot on the ground until his foot gets stuck into the ground andthere's something about. This is a Dildo to bring it all back around there's something somewhere. I readabout how rumple still skin is like the rapples. Still Tikin is a deal dobecause here's an old eversion where he gets stuck in her or something yeah. Iwill do more researches that and clarify and part to, but I can't findanything I donn't really have anything...

...to say about them. These are just theFERTAIS they've run out in the book. There's also Godi locks in the threebears yeah, which was first published in narrative form by the romantic poet,Robert South, Akin. In a e I he's one of your guys yeah wow he's aconservative and Sagais off one of my guys he's the one across them theSatanic School. Very, no and then he mockingly, writes poetry about them,but he did at corrige did marry his sister so like they re friends at thestart, and then he became a treater to the cause, but yeah in that versionRobin Goldilocks. It is an imputed bad old woman had into the house yeah m. Soagain I getting this tub. The only one other one that gets like an extendedexamination is my same yeah Red Riding Ho. That's my favorite. Well, I don'thave that much to say about it, just because I think the scene sort ofspeaks for itself, Yeah Yeah, because I like granning, chastising the woodsmanfor not taking care of things. The Woodsman for the record is introducedas a savior for getting the grooms version. He is not part of it earlierso they're introducing this patriarchal savior figure M, though again we havethe idea that the wolf's nature is determined by his body, but I mean he's been forcibly shape,shifted into something else. But and then this is a thing with the wizard,then we all talk about next book, but they have the same. The Leopard can'tchange its shorts and that was in academicals as far right. Well, that'sthe thing more. That was a saying all the time I was as that: the Leopardkind of change its spot yeah. So I guess what project saying is like theLivid can change its spots, but it can change it short, but it shouldn'tchange it shorts because it is made of spots, I'm not really sure he's Yeah E.I think on that season, which is a broad that no one had ever tried totalk to the wolf and that the grandmother was similarly, I lave fromsociety, because the villages had shunned her after mistaking her for awitch due to her hook, Mars and lack of teeth. So this is playing on theprejudice of like the Black Anna Story, a Maan things. Yeah, I mean all this isin the book. I don't have anything to say about. It was just a cool sile hada cat friend as well, who was our only friend and the man was all a yeah andUS yea, nothing so about this. I just could not bring it up because it's suchO, it's good. It's such a good thing, all right, the big one, the big one.That is not the big one, because it's like one throw a gag in in the book, but I went down a realrabbit hole with the wizard of alls, and now I'm going to subject you to itso yeah another another classic ferry to accounted by the which is is Alfanos.The visit Bas F, one thousand nine hundred hundred- and this I do think,even though this is a throwaway Jerkin, which is a broad war, an he gets hit onthe House with the head and she has had the reinforced happen. I think this isworth camping out on, because the wizard was is so significant to theportrayal of witches yeah like when you think of witches. I don't know for mein which good way would it which of the West go going fly my pretties, likethat's the testing his monkeys for terrifying. The monkeys are terrifying,yeah and in the conclusion to one thousand nine hundred and ninety sixbook. The witch in history which we discussed in the previous episode DanPercuss, observes that, and despite the solitis of radical feminis historiansand modern witches, the dominant image of the witch is still a shrieking hairon a be stick in to the wicked witch of the West. From H, nineteen, thirty ninefilm adaptation of the wizard of Oz directed by VIC deforme. That's it it'snot even that it's the book, it's the film yeah, and this is specifically inwhich is abroad. It is the film their reference Yeah, because in the bookthis is the I don't know if there's a literary turn for it, but the Darkydarky fact right. The de Dirky fact is that mar brothers ter was originallyDirky. Dirky panic in Japan, and then they just put Myronian came to Americais, is different Mirator, but this is the trivial that someone tells you anytime we brunt of the subject. I this is the dirty. Do you fact about theadaptation of the visit mos? Is They in the book at Silver Shoes? Not RubiesTruso, when granny has the red slippers which he has on the covers of all theriches books? That is a reference to the movie, So yeah, it's the movie,that's had the cultural impact rather than the books. Indeed, mental, theiconography he's playing with the Ruby slippers, which is over in the book. Aswe said, the famous line were not in Kansas anymore and the Dingdong Song inin the book. So sue points out in his chapter on human and the Narbo in diswell from the narrative world's collection. Here we once again have aquotation of our own original. That does not exist, so the grooms areaccounted for in dis Worl. That's why we got the fairy tales, but Boum andfilms and the wizard of Os and not we've got this idea of the contentresonance that does get picked up on in lords of. Ladies, it is sort of the outof place. One yeah, I there's less of an issue for me than the hill stuff, inwit, sisses, because it's not like there is an author analog and it'sbefore him, so he hasn't written it. Yet it's just in the Nebula, but thereis a distinction there, yeah ironically the film so successful when Boun withhe all he wanted to be was a filmmaker and he founded his own studio and madeall these wise balls adaptations and went bankrupt. Then died. Then the firegot mare yeah. How do you feel about the VIZARD OF OS? Like I mean I enjoyedit when I was a kid, I remember. Havin watching N my grandparents and e Ritishyou want that, but I hated because I...

...was going to be a famous or when I wasa child, but I've had e e monkeys like they're, genuinely terrified. My like alot yeah. I used to make that's what I remembered I used to make grand turnand off at a certain point. After oh okay, yeah watch, the Nice fits and thewhen I got too scary, I'm like turn off now Ho. U, yes, it's important to distinguishbetween the book and the film versions, man and there's a whole series of Obokthere's like forty books and they're still being in Christ. There keepsbeing ends to the series, but it was very popular, so we had to camp forLang Yeah and he was broke otherwise, so he's giving a far so originally itwas meant to be a steading. They no was popular and it's like the Fragan stunthing where it became a broath ater thing. Yeah yeah is that so then youwrote a couple of sequels and this meant to be like two or three and thenthe like. Now, right more, the second one is really cool. The first books,just the film wather's, a lot of differences and we'll talk about thatin a bit. But it's the general story. Is there the second book? No Dorothy,my you've got a new character whose name I cannot remember, and so it's alittle boy and he goes to Oz and he has all these adventures and what happensthere is that altogetha overtaken by this army, of like rogue pirate women,yes yeah and then he goes off and he steals thismagic belt and they come back and all throughout the book. There's a wholething about. There's the princess, O Ozma, all right, who's, the real andshe's been missing, because there was a witch and we'll talk about her in asecond. He quit a spell on me or something M and then at the end of thebook, they're like Oh, this is great. You you've saved to the city of bells,but with the princess the little boy is, the princess got turned into a boy for safe ki andthen becomes safe, a princess okay. So there's some gender swapping thingsgoing on there. Also when we, when, yes about that, the army of Women Boumwho's the author, he was married to Mal Gage, who was the daughter of the sopraMatilda Gage, who is the namesake of the Matelda effect the idea that womendon't get credit things? What we're talking about her and wrote some booksabout Femi and suffered at history and stuff, so he was married to a daughterof over major suffragette. So there's these like fems, even though it's all Imaking funny fun of it with the e, the bad guys, the army that overtakes thething he is putting these ideas and things in there. So there's a lot ofstuff. The second books are really good, and then I just becomes every book isstarts of his really interesting, like weird imagery at the start, like it'sabsurd ist, like sort of help in one and kind of stuff, so the first feechapters are really interesting and then it's just like- and here are allyour favorite characters. They went back to the thing and the skip heshowed up and they're, like. Oh, my God scare Kar, we love you o because hedidn't want to write them anymore, yeah and then I just finished on the wayhere. I was listening to the last hour of the Audio Boon, the last book of theoriginal series, which I think is book six or seven. I came on city of US,which finishes by Dorothy and a family moved to as they fend off the knownkings invasion and then there's an epigraph which says, and then theydecided to make the entire city of as invisible and unfindable on any map.And there were no more communications from the world of us and everyone lovedHaly, a Veneti about it ever again, then he runs out money and startswriting more books and ages is there's. Fourteen original bath is I've. Readthese like first seven M and there's fourteen, then he dies and then wholeother authors continue on the series and there's like forty of them. Youknow and knows about these books. They only know the film but yeah. So there'ssome interesting stuff going on there, like, I said, with wit, the suffragetstuff and some of the feminist undetained things in one thousand ninehundred and eighty three book fairy tales and the art of subversion as ifobserves that by the end of the nineteenth century, the fairy tale wasno longer to be like a mirror. Twas no longer to be like the Mirror Mirror onthe wall, reflecting the cosmic bougeoirs standards of beauty andvirtue that applied to the unadulterated and pure instead beencracked into sharp edge. Radical parts by authors such as George McDonald, whois the guy who read the Goblin story that we don't know m. We probablyshould know if he keeps coming up. Oskwago rave intern become known asclassical fairy tale rides themselves. Also just put that big O in cord in her,because obviously we have lots of Maro stuff and the wizard walls represents adeliberate attempt by bound to revise the ferita tradition. So in the introto the first wizard was book that one of El was it vas. He notes thatfolklore, legends myths and Fairy Tales have followed childhood through theages and he argies that the winged fairies of Grimm and Hanneton havebrought more happiness to chash hearts than all other human creations- son,okay, right Yeh. He also argues that the time has come for a series of newer,wonder tales in which the stereotype Genie Dwarf in far are eliminated,together with all the horrible and blood curdling incident devised bytheir authors, to point a fearsome moral to each tale, and he thereforewrites the with a wonderful wizard visas and one nice fairy tale in whichthe wonderment and joy are retained, but the heartaches and nightmares areleft out now. You've said the thing about the flying: Monk He's been yesthere's. I wouldn't say that they are heartache and not met like that. Awisdom was it's Grizzling I mean that's...

...the movie version which someone fallson something like a houseful o house bills. On a lady in the book. You knowthe ten men yeah it's just a ten man in the movie yeah. Well, the way the TinMan Goshe was a woodman who chopped off bits of his body M, and then I placedit with tent replaced it with tin, but he kept cropping away his body becauseI think of which cursed his ax and he choked away his entire body, includinghis head and rebuilds himself, RAN Hinein I'll leave it a lot I'lllike Bois Frangis, because he's cut himself down and then rebuilding. Butit's there. There are tomatoes and stuff. You know, there's a tick tock orabout like a clockwork rout man and stuff. In the letter box, they're alsoexplicitly sent on a quest like do they send them on the quest to kill thewicked witch of us. Even the first book, doesn't don't they get to taken by themonkeys. I don't remember in the book I feels formal when I go visit the wizardhe specifically says I was in your home if you go and murder the witch, Oh yesright, you're, right, Grizzly and then the wicked witch defence herself byattacking them with armies of wolves and cords and bees which the tim mancuts in half. Like he's cutting moves and half yeah so in the book, ratherthan like in the film its an accident and Dorothy spills, the water on thewitch and then she melts in the book, she very deliberately discovers thewitches weakness to water and plot er to murder her and thrown word, and thenthey recognized for the film that Dorothy be most empathetic hero weparers sympathetic, but also passive and Dosin yeah. In his two thousand, ad two analysis of the fairy tales influence in the wizard of Als StevenSwan Johns observes that since Bowen's heroin is allowed to get angry and actdecisively on her feelings, she therefore constitutes a positive andnon existent representation. MME turns also is the while bound Dorothy usesthe bucket of order as a weapon. Much as the mat protagonist of other fairytales use, their sorts flings Dorothy can only act in continents with sexistand Patriarchal notions that women are fundamentally not hostile andaggressive. She is an active female protects in the books, whereas yeah she,everything that happens to her in the film is by accident. HMM and sheapologizes to the witch right and yes, as he said, it begins with Dorothy,crushing old woman to death with their house. So I think you really missed themark with the on grizzly fairy toil, especially if you watch it, the goodguys don't get hit. That's the point right yeah, so Bam is sort of revisingthe fairy tale. He himself and one of the things that he revises is the imageof the witch as opois Dam ere fused, to comply with the stated nortons ofsexuality and sex roles and question the restrictions placed on theimagination of children in traditional fairy tales and yeah. This is mostapparent in his treatment of witches, so you've got four witches right: theCarnal Directions Yeah. So you the first one you got the wicked witch ofthe East, which is on the House, falls on M and it said that she has held allthe Munchkins in bondage for many years, making making them say for her nightand day s. So we got much fins, not dwarfs. So it's a nationality ratherthan a race, can the wizard of as Yeh but yeah. Is this idea that sheenslaved the Munchkins? This is something in fairy tales with themother figure. The mother is always putting their children to work inleaving them. So this is how that we choose, but yeah. Also like a hundred years,almost or eight years at least before Prache, we have an image of a goodwitch which is pretty revolutionary. I guess I mean head of its time ahead ofits time, like we've got the God, mothers and things in the tration fairytales, but this is someone who is called a witch being good good with atthe not I've got the picture of her there. He seems Nice, she seems Nice,but she looks like a witch. She has the point. He had yeah she's White, notblack, crow or she's, yellow and night picture, but yeah people the hurtoutfit as well all right. Yes, whereas in the film version she's like thepretty fairy princess thing, he was in the book. Now she is a witch. He is anold woman in an. I think she's a fairy God mother sort of figure, so yeahshe's, the witch of the north. She introduces herself and says I am a goodwitch and the people love me not as powerful as the wicked witch who rolledhere or I should have sent these people free myself, but really get her out ofthat Nice. I don't know if something's going on there with the powers of eviland yeah, and I think also morally gets her out of not challenging an which, ifyou is good yeah, but there is an implication that, like with Lily Alit,is more powerful than granny weather backs because she gave in to the evilout. So I don't know that's obviously reading into it, but the song down onthere and Dorothy responds and says, but I thought all witches were wickedand she explains Oh no. That is a great mistake. There are only four witches inthe land of is and two of them. Those who live in the north and the south aregood witches. I know this is true from one myself and cannot be mistaken.There is a balance between good and evil in the world. Yeah. Well we'vejust in on that belt, because because this is yeah but Dorothy herself is awitch hay, she gets the shoots, Oh yeah, right and later in the book she becomesa Princess of als m. She is explicitly called and noble sorciers by the goodwitch of the North M, because she wears the silver shoes and is killed thewigod witch, but also because she has white in her frock and only witches andsorceresses wear whatho. This is why I...

...was pointing to the picture before, but we compare that to granny's black.This is a performt aspect of of which is it's interesting that year, which ishere why so yeah we have good witches and agood witch protagonist almost a hundred years before Pratchett stuff. The otherway you have is the good witch of the South who is Glinda the good witch inthe box. The movies the good wish of the north is going to the goitered here.She's, the good bitch of the south and her color is red. He ansars red hair.She has a red body and she's the most powerful of all the witches, so I don'tknow why she didn't go in and stop the yeah yeah in slavery, and but she has areputation as a beautiful woman who is kind to everyone, I know, is how tokeep young. In spite of the many years she has lived on to eating hearts ofwell, I wanted to connect this to the the article the Captivi article. We'vetalked about the last couple of our hour. Pracher represents old women. Howfull and capable here the most powerful is the English he yon pretty right andthen, of course, we have the wicked witch of the West and there's thepicture over there quite different from the long hat but yeah the giant had. Ithought was funny but she's, like short and shrivel of angle, yeah yeah, shedoesn't bleed, for she was so wicked that the blog and her had dried up manyyears before no grizzly stuff. In this book there yeah, I think the otherthing is that that's another comment on her being old: Isn't it o? Yes andsomething's completely left out of all the movies is that she has a golden capthat grant her three wishes, one of which is the ability to control theflame monkies H, o all the animals whero. You know what controllingmonkeys and Dorothy ends up taking this calf and bringing it to the good witchin the south, but she when she tries it on our on head, she finds it fitsexactly so this is sort of like a Cinderella thing right, yeah, ratherthan to be a princess, it's to be a witch. So there's something on a s bookyeah! That's why I'm spending so much time on the wizard of us here, becauseI do think there's a lot of this informing Pratchett project. No, notsome observes that a central theme of, as is that wherever you are searchingfor a found within yourself. No one else can give it to you it's a similarto granny's position. That is pointless to so Chotie yourself that you are yourme so yeah, there's so much going on in the wizard of was the directly adaptedinto which is abroad, which the whole one is that they go on a journey to acity somewhere so yeah her right, the finecut. Yes, I feel like there's ajoke in there about yellow bricks at some point as well. There is yeah butyou're right. The whole way there on the road and that's like a fair tower,mythological yeah form, but I can't remember the list of those fairy tale.rewritings one was using the structure, Oh yeah, and things so he's meanstructure year, repating his using his alluding to the structure of wizard ofas even though he only has the house thing m. The other magic use you have,of course, is the wizard was tends out not to be actually a magicuser in the time. Well, in the book as well yeah, he is a magician from Earthwho traveled to Oz yeah and has foud everyone to think he is a visit withthese magic tricks, so he's using hedlot right. Yeah he's manipulatingpeople what he doesn't actually perform that a nice and that some jest that itcould even be. Could it even be an allusion to lily's power being anallusion. An allusion to the illusion, just like the wizards power is anillusion. Hmmm I mean lit, has actual power, but it's not real power, so yeahso again, there's so many ties to Pratchett, Oh and the other thing theyhave is on as being a magic list. Wisit he's doing. hed ology like runningweather life he's also a magic was wizard, which is retwine, yeah, sure oyeah a continuing so much stuff, and has itwas it's all coming together, but the point about the wizard of, as is therestill a hierarchy? There's still this idea, the wizard of Oz, Romal, witchesyeah. So in the first they call the Marble Line. Oels, that's the good one.I was talking about for one thousand nine hundred and four that begins byintroducing its antagonist Moby, who is not exactly a witch, since the witch ofthe North had forbidden any other which to exist in her dominions, making itunlawful to be more than a sorcerous or at most a wizardese again he come backto our conversation in equal rate, sorceress m things not being which is,but also this idea that which is an occupation position. It's likeprofessor yeah people, keep asking me now they go on p d like all. So whathave you got to do to be a professor in a employee? I yes is one for you, so Iwas talking about a Ozma she's, the boy. It's reveal she's the princess and theytransferment princess now's. Life says that osmotherly is a symbol ofmatriarchy and guarantees the development of socialist humanism in usby regulating magic, especially by banning black magic. So we have a amaphrotight who brings balance to M E C. This is your yeah, so breasail yeah see, as I saidit with the book series. There have been lots of continuations andinversions of the wizard of as the most famous of which is one thousand ninehundred and ninety five wicked by Gregory McGuire, which serveddisinfatuate the record setting play of the same name, which I assume peopleare familiar with through Contra Osmosis, at least these very tale,inversions and ravine. It's kind of Magues thing M, but wick is reallyinteresting because I'm like most...

...earlier reinterpretations, whichfocused on Dorothy and her ancestors hmmm mcriartys e West and is the mostsuccessful Havitt for it. Sir There's something here where we don't want tohear about darth any more. We want to hear about the witches- and this ofcourse comes a couple of years after patched, that's, which is a broad andweird sisters and half to the these fairy tower revision. So there'ssomething going on around this time where stuff down hers, you got anything.I just think. That's that's about the time we culturally. We start to getreally interested in Arca, so it makes sense that you stop being interested inwhich is in the back story, which is. Is there anything like why? Because,obviously, like I understand that wicked comes after Pratur, which comesafter Carter and everyone else doing these things, but is there a reason?Why is it just then? I think this is kind of Texas Tang to repave appear again andone form like you've got the vampire stories. You've got whatever you start,yeah exactly like those start to appear and gain traction and popular popularculture. Again, second way feminism. Rather, this is why now we have voiceslike Angela, car and Curius have run stuff to do famous revisions very tales,make sense why they went around before them, but then yeah, I don't know whyduck heroes and there's not much of a relation between wicked and which is abroad, obviously came after, but I did read it, and it was quite good issurprised by it's. A I've told you this before, but it's major problem is thatit is set in Oz, because there's lots of sexy sucees with the wicked witch ofthe West which, when you all you have in your head, is why my pretty and I'mmelting yea you are is difficult, whereas if I think it hada been set in its own fantasy universe would have worked a lot better, butthen, by the same token, it wouldn't have been as successful because youwouldn't be able to market it as being in Terrasini. It was what was reallyinteresting to me and why I want to talk about a bit here is the whole bookis about Animal Rights, activism, Huh, yeah, the we get rich to the West,she's friends with her name in the book. He is Alpha Ba m and she's friends withLinda the good witch there in high school college, the other it's likeHarry part of magic school, but a year before that was written but yeah shegets caught up in this whole animal activism movement, because one of thethings in the books is animals can talk in US right. You got. The cowardly arm,obviously met in the later books like Dorothy. has a chicken who's always beher head in Pelina, who is threatened with being turned into dinner andthings, and then they go to all. Aveline becomes a character who cantalk and things M and yeah. I've read they seven books, the original Ark andthey're still talking about eating meat and stuff, and it's not a Les Amori.There is a character called the the very hungry tiger who becomes friendswith the cawly lion and he is a vegetarian, but he's a tie. Gasser he'svery hungry. He has morals, MS, he stops there's also a group of foxes inone of the books who are angry at a sop for having them so yeah, Evius andcunning right. So we're dealing with the way, fables and very terms of shapeculture. Also in wicked alferes mother, is the wife of a seven son of a seventhson. So we just have another for a cary churt, but she's also Drucke, with agreat Persian and great, and that's why she has a re yeah and ye also have atraveling glass blow is Alphabets Stepdad father who blows the mother atMerra to walk into her hat, or I mean obviously the merry is a fairy timetrick that we will talk about in part to Oh- and this is my favorite but theI want the thing, but you do have a reference to a broom choose to find theBrondi says it moves in a naughty way between Earth. I Oh yeah yeah. I nothing to do I frenship, buthe's tied up with ferry, towle revisions, and I think, is interesting.The other Northart y thing about the visit of, as is that it's a distinctlyAmerican fairy tale right before these were the younger German m FrenchEnglish things as well. So this is European Culture European morals, thisfeudal system, these ideas of marriage and things, whereas yeah as is, is anAmerican fairy tale on, but it's also a distinctly anti American ferry tale.Okay in one thousand nine hundred and Ninety Four Chapter Oz as American mythat observes that both the book and the film version with his evolve depictedAmerica as a failure. Conversely, osis depicted as the symbolical involvementof the longing for a better life token realm in which justice is attained, andthis especially comes through in the later books, and that only throughexperiencing the strange Turky of as and learning about, aliens and otherways just Kansas become bearable. So it's a Utopian fairy tail. It's verycool that really the most sided article in the was a well as like. If you lookat up on mine, is this article about how it's a metaphor for the silverversus the gold standard in the earl nine hundred right and there's thiswhole crazy theory? And apparently this has become a thing in econome of people.Teach this where the yellow brick road is the gold moon. You have to followthe gold to the riches and you stay away from the silver and and all thisand the CEETY lions meant to be the represention of this guy. who wascampaigning for the Siver standard or...

...something that was called a coward inthe newspapers? No, it fits, but he just like there's no way he wrote abook about this and there's no way he wrote a book about that. This has beenthoroughly disproving, but also just whoever came up with this theory. Thisis why it is important to read all seven books, not just the first one isvery clearly stated in the leader books, whereas I was become more of aninversion of America. Is that there is no money in alsdorf ends. Up movie canentire family to us because they know their farms going to be repossessedbecause they can't work and the American dream is a failure, and youcan't make anything of yourself and she says why don't we go to all, but asortie, and I, Sir Yeah that that money allegory is on we tones like reallyangry, he's going to keep running books. He's like this family, they won't haveto do there. Yes, YEA, although in one thousand nine hundredand five he claimed he had purchased a Californian island where he intended tobuild an Athene amusement park called Aslan okay, there appears to be noevidence that he ever actually purchased his island, nor that the arthe describes even exists and I'm struggling to even verify the claimitself. I can only find secondary references, but also its from ninehundred a d four. So maybe you just said it somewhere and no one wrote itdown, but this praams Disneyland right yeah, which we're going to talk a lotabout Disneyland in part to because January is distantly uh. YeahDisneyland is a kingdom where fairy tales are real. Ah, and this is tied upin similar cers who so yes, we will talk more about genuine and Disneyland,and the Americanization of fairy tales in part to that. Oh, hopefully, willcome out in a couple of weeks as voluntary. I you haven't said anything for like thelast for anything and you just had to do you wisit of us, ran like I havenothing. I have nothing, it's like the Ark thing and my cool but yeah any lastthoughts on the things we have covered this week, no tag all right well, nexttime we will talk about genuine everything after why I for and wickle that's all for this episode of unseenacademicals to be another one along in a month. But if you can't wait untilthen, you can sign up to our patronage and get all the episodes a full monthin advance, along with any bonus episodes or specials that me and updoing, if you're, after more of us, Alice, horser and podcast of theDevil's Party, which traces, the development of the satanic era for ourromantic and graphic literature, links to a Bibliotheca show, along with thefully reference to footnote, transcript, should be available in the episodedescription, thanks for listening and stay change for some amusing ated and yes, I went to marathon yesterdayand watched all the that was a vols marries for I didn't watch all becauseit has Wedley for a movie that I was saying is like perhaps the most Colpisignificant film of all time like it's not a franchise. No, I mean that maybeis Wat. There are sequels, which I think will come as a surprise to a lotof people right and there there's a lot of them, but none of them have beensuccessful, axcent for the original, and then they don't immediately make asequel to it like I guess they. That's not how they did things in those days,but there's actually an Australian film called as a rock and roll road moviefor One Thousand Nine hundred and seventy six, which is about the land ofOlves, being Australia, the musics by Ross Wilson, who is the leading ofDaddy, call okay, I watch the trailer for this, not a chance o ever washing aI was gonna say that could go one or two O. No, no, it is completelyinsufferable. What I did watch was the WHIZ R one thousand nine hundred andseventy eight. You know about the WHIZ. The whiz is the old black Broadwayversion o and the movie version is staring Diana. Ross is dorothy she's,like a forty year old woman playing Dorothy, Michael Jackson as thescarecrow just yeah, a bunch of like blacksingers and Comedians. It's a lot O. I ta Michael Jackson's in it. Microcardhe's a weird dancing scarcer, the first. The first day I was a bit rough. Second,now it is pretty cool and the particular the depiction of the wickedwitch Evelin is pretty cool. The other one I watched out because I've seenthere's the one from I think it's two thousand and thirteen or something bySam Rami, directed by the guy who did evil dead. So I went and Sorroweth myfriend were like this is nothing like people did I so very bad has millicanson. What's his name M, I mean that's enough yeah. I can not stand here, butshe plays the Wokan that and there's also a return to us which is like from,I think, is one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven t n eight e, a Dsighty seven, which follows the books which I'm going to talk about the bookseries a lot more closely that one's really cool, but it's like it's a formlike children's horror movie, but that one's a lot of fun. The point aboutthat one. Is it stars as Dorothy as an actual young child this time stars foras a bulk? I know her for as a bulkier. The bulk is a very distinctive actressfrom the Nice Ham. Most famous role is as Nancy in the craft. Do you know thecraft horror movie? I was actually remade really recently the craft isyour girl power, whichmovie about there'slike which is who they form a cover,...

...and they so experimental witchcraft forone of them is actually a witch and the other ones are attending and Nancy isthe leader of the bed, which is because it's like it's like min girls, but withwitches. I can't exactly like men, girls, but with witches. I like italready so frizell plays Nolens Lorand, the other one, a name, one yeah the man.She plays the Min Gil Games like her, the leader of the thing and she becomesthe old powerful, which he sells. I told of the down things and thenchested the feeder it up so that the main character, who is the little girland then return to us, goes on to that riches. The first line of the fairy pen is aDick Jebado. The first line of very first line there was a gentle mightpricking on the plane e a H O. is that a dictatin come or isthis one of Patrick and Peter Things where they, like? You can't say similarbecause it means spun hundred and ten percent. This is a Dick joke thatinspector keeps coming back to throughout its fantasting e. u o hislook making in the set aster on Field Hustrin, something this way comes bythe pricking of my tone. Yeah! Is that a Handra and as by my not my logic, this is pete and hisvery good understanding of the English language Bota all about now. It is, Ipromise you, but you believe, nothing else that is it sewering about this, because we didspend almost an hour talking about which is showing broom sticks up there.That's at to be fair and supervisors really into eighteen century del. Do soso, if you see his pose that as a boost about they discovered it'slike the oldest, did I ever write and in a toilet and a mannery or somethingyeah? That's it yeah. I read that and then I used to do the the sort fightingyeah. So I went and they were talking about the seventeenth century andtracing all this issue back for it. I was like guys e had to name. We used to do likefighting at the end and we break up into teams and have a bout, and we picka team name and I never cared, but that week we with the seventeenth centurydollers, that's very good, see I did a very different thing where I am from. Isaw the Blogownie. I was at home at the time and I was like I get this guy'sgoing to be my supervivo. Yet I think next time around and you still want tointroduce him after that. They both they both want to hang out yeah, butone does researching DISSENTA centry dodars. That's a pony he'd be veryinterested like that's why I showed it to dill doors he he finds that stufffascinating. Just like generally anything found in toilets, he's reallyinto likening criolla founding toilets e epeople. He has a pubic collection and he doesn't, but it's the sing, a bodiesbeing like yeah. I keep him in match boxes. I've got all these match books Iin Phillippe, picked up in probably twelve. That's why I'm? The Way I am no gedichte get you don't have to put upon her kitchen bench, I from Thee the art I put this on Rona. My dice need a map to love, leave an opal taste in yourmouth or please make jerks like a foaks's. Not anice joke, it's pretty nice at that's how you get the girs taste.Isn't it I'm just trying to work out what sexposition? The surprise reboses when you take the ex out of your L, tars, trydoing you and you shove it in there, but and I'mbeing recorded, shut.

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