Sounder SIGN UP FOR FREE

4B – Witches Abroad - Part 2

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The Oggisms continue as we explore the cultural impact and implications of fairy tales featured in the Genua section of Witches Abroad,
including Cinderella, Bluebeard, Puss in Boots, Rumpelstiltskin and
Disney itself. We also figure out what simulacras are all about and
whether Nala stands a chance in a Disney Princess Deathbattle.

Apologies for the clicking sound that shows up intermittently on Alice's mic. Other than that though, the sound is perfect!

Referenced transcripts: independentresearcher.academia.edu/JoshuaBulleid/Podcasts
(The transcript for the Witches Abroad episodes will be uploded with Part 3.)

Contact: unseenacademicalspod@gmail.com

Alice's other podcast, Of the Devil's Party: https://ofthedevilsparty.sounder.fm/ 

Support: patreon.com/doctorprometheuspod

All right, live writing. Reaction. WHO's rated us? Whereof they rated us? What if they rated us? Alice one rating five out of five. Oh, yeah, did we? Did you do it? That I actually know. You know who it is. Is Maddie. Maddie that I should do it. Thanks, bad thanks, Maddie, just last time, so we can thank Maddie. Writing. That's five stars. There on else cover its five stars. What's desk world? It's dear as world, podcast analysis. Yeah, so I'm Josh a Alice. I'm where the I'm saying academicals. Yeah, we're back to do part two of which is abroad, and we said last episode that it was going to be a true part of but surprise. Yeah, I think it's gonna be a three part we'll see how this one goes good, turns up. There's a lot of stuff going on in this book because I think, as I said in the last episode, this is tackling an entire genre of things that have been incredibly culturally influential. There's lots of stuff going on. I have crazy theories about similarkers and pastiche. So you know when I said buildogs froman was its technical as we were going to get. I lie. He did. He sucked me in, so I'm sorry. We've been promising the talk about gratty, weather, axes, conservatism and things. That's going to be so for part three, part two we are just going to focus on the fairy tales. So if you don't like fairy tales, yeah, lot's of Disney princess for coming up. But yeah, specifically we talked about the fairy tales that they counted on the row last time. This time we're talking about the fairy tales that they encounter while in genuine, sir, and at the end of last podcast we had the realization that jenuine meant genuine genuine. Yeah, yeah, and have that good. Is a revelation and couple of flows up on some things from last episode coming up. But yeah, this this episode we're going to be looking at primarily the Fairytale Cinderella, blue beard, defron prince and some Disney stuff and Snow White. So that's that's the AGM of to day. Yes, a few follow ups from last time because we brought up rumble steel skin and it turns out the version of rubble steel skin I was talking about where you get stuck in the Queen's Vagina and he can't get pulled out and I didn't know where I'd heard that. I couldn't find it. Turns out it comes from Pratchett. It's in the second science of discworld book. Ah, yeah, you have read these ones heavy ask now. So the way they work? Is it their wizard stories? Okay, and there's like ultimating chapters where you get a piece of wizard story written by Pratchett and then a piece of like nonfiction chapter sort of explaining the science of some of the concepts that they get in the story. Okay, presumably written by his Co Editors Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. I don't know how much of a hand Pratchett has in the science stuff that's been written, but in one of the sections the authors there they claim that rumble steel skinn was a tale to program the idea that female masturbation leads to sterility. Oh saying. Remember the tale with the Miller's daughter. They put her on the barn and tell it a spin straw into gold and then she virginally sits on a little stick that becomes a little man who, when his name is finally identified, jumps into plug the league very intimately and the assembled soldiers can't pull him now. Thanks. That's where I remembered this, for I don't know where to start with that. Well, I can't find another source for this. Okay, so this is just pratchet being Cratchett. I can find vague references on the intent. Maybe it's out there. I haven't gone like fully down the rabbit hole, but I haven't been able to find just a thing to say, Hey, he's a version where this happens. HMM, be the way they started in the science of discworld. And they say that if you doubt this interpretation, Dorth the indirection. What is his name? What is his name? That recurs in the story? What is the name of a stilt with a rumpled skin? Oh No, a penis. It's a penis. Well, that's that's what they're suggesting, right. The rumble stilt Skim Penis thing, though, of course, comes from Freud. Oh No, yeah, Josh, none of this trickery go on in his one thousand nine hundred and thirteen essay on the occurrence of dreams in material from fairy tales, for it characterizes the cream's room, has fair vagina, know, and rumble steel skin entering it as the penis itself, which he claims is confirmed the doors, narrow door and steep stairs. I don't know why, but that's that's for it's evidence. Maybe if I read more psychoanalysis stuff I would know why, but I'm not going to because it's trash. It's trash. I was going to say we're making fun of psychoanalysis. I'm like, am we allowed to do that on this podcast? Okay, but we do. We have to deal with psychoanalysis if we're going to talk about rubble Stiltskin, pain of stuff, because that's where it comes from. Okay, we're going to have to talk about it in part three with all the mirror ship because mirrors and fairy tales and yea, so get ready. Hmm Ford further characterizes the Queen's ignorance of Rumble Stiltskin's name as evidence of her narrants and envy for the penis. It's getting worse right, I mean this is pretty basic psychoanalysis stuff and this is why no one takes this shit seriously. A further influential argument regarding ruffle steet skin was made by Harry rand in his article, who was rumble Stiltskin from the year two thousand. where? And he argues that rumble stiltskin represents a specifically flaccid penis. Wow, yes, now he's argument is Etymological, claiming that rumple equals waring, called or contracted stilt is an erect pole, a skin is skin. So you put all this together, what's a contracted wrinkled poles? It's their flascid penis. Right, and he argues this is why he demands a child from the Queen, which he says, is the only thing a flaccid...

...penis absolutely cannot create. So flaccid penis is capable of creating all other things. Yes, but can a flaccid penis? Right, Hamlet, if you get enough of them in a room with enough fide prod am Bashild the keys over an infinite time period? Yeah, UH, Huh, okay. Other psychoanalysis have linked rumble stiltskin to the clutterers. Okay, the idea being that the Queen Spinning at night represents masturbation. Well, she could just be spinning. Yeah. Rand's argument, however, is normally based on Edgar Taylor's eight hundred and twenty three English mistranslation. See what I there of the grimms German story, rumple, Stilt, Shin. Oh No, therefore the suffix Shin or small, implying small or child. Now it's a small Dick. Well, it's not skin. is the point which would be translated because, as Holt, I think, hut so, in fact it's not even skin in the English translation. It's stilts, plural. So stilts, then Kim, meaning a small child. Okay, so little kit at the end. But the etymological argument, it's not even the right words that he's translating. There and rand acknowledges that the English naming is also Taylor's invention. So this implication, you know, isn't part of the original story because it's comes from a translation. But he also characterizes it as kind only insurative, suggesting that it possibly reveals an old English name for the same figure. So somehow translation is revealing some kind of implicit meaning. This is bullshit. Yeah, I mean I think you can now be spinning her fail. Well, the diseases away like those. The whole time she was just is that? That's actually not bad. That's probably how there somewhere right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's just wonk it off the whole time because she's doing it to delay her suitors. Yeah, so she's just had a good time. Yeah, ans are onto something done. I'm sure there's an article I can find out there women spending things. The critic, John Rosen grant, takes a more sensible approach in his two thousand and eight article the name of the Helper, pointing out that actual folklore is often explicitly or implicitly folk. Most psychoanalytic approaches to fairy tales, for limiting themselves only to the most familiar variant of each tail right, leading to an over emphasis on the importance of details with limited generality and the overlooking of important details not found in that particular area. So again, that whole flaccid pin sign was based on a specific English translation rather than all the versions of rubble stilt skin. Yeah, okay, rose grand looks at other variations of what are called name of the help of folk tales. There's are like categories of folk tales where the end is have to guess the name of the person who's help them. Looks at other variations of this tale and find that none of them emphasize spelic sexuality so much Huh. He finds instead that these stories illustrate a broad a ambivalence about development, of which the felic meaning is nearly a specific manifestation. He also points out that the name of the helper differs in each story, leading to a number of different meanings that could be read into them, most of which emphasized children or childhood. So they're about growing up, not through sexuality but through the discovery of language, which makes more sense, right, if they got to know the name, because I don't really know where knowing the name at the penis really comes arry. It's what yours is called, and the Hungarian psycho analyst sand or forenzy associated adolescence with a period of magic thinking and magic words. Okay, which Freud further connected to widespread, quote, primitive beliefs that one's true name partakes of one's essence or soul, and knowing the name of another gives control over him. Oh No, you've just ruined rough this. Well, may never mind. It rewards Luguin as well. Right, this is a this is the idea of the power through language thing that we've been talking about. Yep, so this is all tied in there. I'm tired. So where did the penis go? Well, that just a right all right. How do they refer to rubble stills? Good, and which is abroad. Again, they refer to the longer with the pigtails and a tower ruffles still now or someone. So it's just it's literally that is very lasting influence. Okay, now I've gone down the cycle and Alex the SA Penis whole, but sure it would be proud. I've gone down the psycho analytic erethrow. I need to terminate our friendship. But it's also relevant because this is in our the science of disco. The other fairy tale I need to look up after last episode. It was puss in boots, which you pointed out grieber was probably an illusion to now, but the puss in boots story comes from Proo, although they is a groom's version which was admitted from later collections because of its French origins. In that one puss in boots, his enemy is a great sorcerer who we tricks into shape, shifting into amount so that he can eat him, which I guess is alluded to him, which is abroad when Grieber eats the vampire back. Yeah, I think that's the right link, but it's just sort of it's a throwaway seeing him, which is a broad because, like, he just eats a vampire bath for no reason, which also sort of stuffs up corpa jugular. I didn't really find any other connection. Did you ever look at this fairy tale little, very briefly,...

...and also didn't find anything? Yeah, props. The most interesting thing I found out about puss in boots was that pros version, rather than a sorcerer, it's an Erga. That was cool. Yeah, and the ARGO receives pushing boots as politely as an order is able to do, asking him if he would like to rest a while when he shows up at his castle, which I thought was, yeah, pretty Shurek ask. Yeah, last time you break the rules, you go rogue. You can over the conventions right at the star of the episode. PS. Two things you don't like. Yeah, and of the things you say you don't like is it's a bit like Shrek. Yeah, but then all we do is talk about how much we like, track love Shrek. Shrek is nothing else, only sure echo and it doesn't make sense. I wasn't sure why I was at negative that it was like Shrek. Why was negative that it was like trick. Yeah, why I was like, I like Shrek. I think because it felt to me strained, because I was like, Oh, you just copying Shrek the whole time. But I knew deep down that it's not copying trek. This came first. Shrek is a copy of all of that. It just that you've seen this stuf. I've Seen Shrik and I've seen shreck. You know all the things that came from Shrek and it's just felt like that again. Yeah, it was annoying. I found that we need to address the secret reverse Shrek. It was a sex move. That was in the art up in the boatis episode, in a section of last episode. But yes, we contemplate what the secret reverse tract did. We come up with a know in the INTERROM I sent you're an article about a guy who's made a flash light like shreksie. I said that's everyone. So I think that guys figured about that. Is that's a sure carry around with you. Oh yes, and the last last bit of follow up stuff about the Ozz things, because I didn't talk about them enough, but I did find in an article by a Rebecca Han see Dr Vazaria. So she used to work in Monsh but I saw in passing but I never actually interacted with her and she doesn't work there anymore. But in her two thousand and eighteen book fashion in the fairy tale tradition, she points out that which is abroad, like bounds Oz books, features which is who absorbed characteristics of the fairy Godmother, and seems obvious, but we didn't actually point that out last episode. And she also observes how granny weather wax laments that which you should wear black while wearing a white gown at the bowl, whereas we were talking about how bur own switches where white. Yeah, and her description of how which is abroad tangables with the fairy godmother and her role in controlling stories also prompted me to connect the idea that we mentioned last episode of Marine and waters, suggestion that writers often represented themselves is very godmothers in their stories. So the idea that, yeah, the fairy godmother's are the writers who are writing a fairy tales and will is the fairy God mother who's writing the fairy tales. Yeah, this is all implicit, but seeing this written out like explicitly for me I was like, Oh, yeah, that's it, that's what's coming in yet nice and there was are also connects this to the idea of the fates, right stories. For people it's all soup, soup. But yes, that's just some loose threads from our last episode spun into gold, which means by a masturbation. Sure, this was a bit of a wake, but yeah, so we can now turn our attention to the fairy tales focused on in the genuine section of which is abroad, the biggest and most obvious one being Cinderella. So the most popular version of the story that we're familiar with comes from Charles Boroughs French sendrillion, from one thousand six hundred and ninety seven. I don't know if that's just a translation thing, but in the version I'm using, the two thousand and nine Oxford University press edition, She's called Sidderbum try thought was pretty amazing. Yeah, I got yeah, you laugh my little words. Other number else, God, okay, cindabum. The modern suffix alle is a variation of the name alaine, the name of Sir Lancelot's lover in the King Alchemy, which will become more relevant. I was going to say, next episode, but not part three. In next book, laws and ladies, the art of myth ask will become I think. And and the name Alaine was also popularized by Alfred Tennsen's on thousand eight, hundred and fifty nine palm idols of the king, where he describes her as alien, affair and lovable. It's nice. A laying, in turn, is a derivative of Helen, which is derived from the Greeculios or the song, and connected two ideas of female beauty through home, as Helen in the Odyssey and the Elia Mbrella's proper name, alice Saturday, therefore makes her a beautiful sunny Saturday. That's nice. It's not as much better than Cindabum, but yeah, sooner. All, this is the beauty fame from nothing. Thing that you were suggesting about unseen academicals with Juliet Billy Elish like that, and indeed project makes multiple references to Emberella in unseen academicals. So that book Juliet Likens one of her fashion shows to a fairy story. Then, when Glenda tells her that they don't all happy endings and that she has a steady job already, that should not be lightly thrown away pepe response, nor it should be hurled with great force. What is this? Emberella? The one has been waived, the chord is cheering, a score of handsome princes are waiting to sign up for just a sniff of her slipper, and you want her to go back to work making pumpkins. And later Glenda asked Trev ever heard of Ember Alla? Everyone's heard of Emberella. Well, you might not be my...

...first choice for prince charming, but there's probably plenty worse. Thanks. So here the referring to Emberella as a story to be written, yes, and rather than a person. So I don't know if that's like either Pratchett's for getting. He already did this. We did talk about how on seen academicals coincides with these Alzheimer's, but I that's not the accusation I'm making, more pointing out there seems like an oversight. or He's playing with the idea that Embrell's life got turned into a fairy tale anyway. Yeah, charming for a story, yeah, which would imply that wellth one after all. Yeah, but I think that's reading way too much into it. But it does seem one that it's cool. There's just nothing there to indicate in an see academicals that he's deliberately connecting it. It just seems like he came up with the umbrella joke. This is how many books after? Forty books, after two thousand and twenty five books later, I think, if I'm saying academical, yeah, that's a lot of books. Yeah, it seems like it's meant to be an Easter, but it seems to conflict. So I don't know. Okay, I like our reading, but I don't know if it's supported in the text. Bros moral for Cinderella. However, read's you have a great advantage if you receive at your birth good breeding, courage, sense, a ready weird and other things of comparable worth. But that is not enough unless you know how best to use such precious gifts. You need a godfather or Godmother to show what you must do in order to succeed. This is what my spencer stuff comes in. You on it now, go for it. And this is from Edmond Spencer's the Fairy Queen, which is an epic poem. Peter and I going through book six of the moment, which is on courtesy, and I was like what? Why? Is that a virtue that a night needs to know? And what we found along the way is actually courtesy encompasses all the other virtues and Spencer has been slowly building one which leads to another and to another, etc. But it's really it's at that cusp in history where we're moving away from the idea that, you know, Nobles Are Noble by Birth and peasants are villains, because you know the original etymology of villain. I do note, and just means meant peasant, like villager. Yeah, essentially. Yeah, and then they sort of took on that connotation because the implication was that if you are high born you you're naturally good and if you were lowborn, you and actually bad because God wanted that for you and sucks to be low born. Right, but we're now moving towards more of a meritocracy. At the time that Spencer is riding and which is when fifty nine is also late fifteen. Yeah, Elizabeth is on thrown. We've had the Spanish Armada, the Irish rebelis contemporary with Shakespeare. Fifteen just before just with yeah, yeah, at the same time. Yeah, he dies soon after that on his way out and then spent and then Shakespeare in the mountain. This sort of say that's in book six. He's really yet developing that idea or challenging that idea that with noble birth comes just nobility in your manners and things. And he says, actually, it's all affected and if you can develop that then you can be noble. And you know, this is the thing was so well to rolly. He becomes a big dude, but he came from nothing and this is the same. So well to roll he was a pirate. He was Elizabeth's righthand man. He was a pirate, but not a pirate with the Spanish Armana. He like went off to America and tried to start a whole colony on his own. He wrote poetry, he had a monopoly on like a certain trade. Elizabeth gave him monopoly. He was fighting the Spanish. She was like everything. I'll send you the dollar episode. Anyway. It's pretty cool and the point about him is he's at for the first big example of yet a kind of a merit meritocratic rise to power. But what Spencer is making is he's challenging that idea and he there's this word that Peter keeps using spreads a Tourta, which is an Italian word for basically make it doing something and making it seem like it's spontaneous or it's natural, even though actually took quite a lot of effort to to develop. Well, I'm going to drop that in my next music reveal and stay of saying, you know, they make it look effort less, I can say and and that that came to mind immediately from this, because it's like, unless you know how best to use such precious gifts, you need a God father, a Godmother, and that is kind of what Spencer is saying. He's like, nobody knows how to use these gifts. Are Not, they're not actually think it's not a gift and you need someone to teach you. And all of it is affected and he's challenging that part of society, which pretty cool. Let's Spencer around, virtue, Megas Ord, yeah, all of them that once more together God. And obviously this is interesting because it's saying you need a God mother to show you how to work anything. But in connection to the fairy tales, like the idea of the fairy God mother has to guide the yeah, and that works with Spencer is all the nights. Need a guide, right, like a particularly guy on in book two, which is the book of temperance. He has a Palmer, as we talked about last episode, of guides into everything. So yeah, be spensive vibes, the expensive vibes. The editor of the Oxford Collection, Christopher Betts, however, suggest that pros moral is more of a practical suggestion rather than a comment on the story. But this is actually supporting. Yeah, yeah, he's not, he's not going on. It's the fairytale God mother thing. He say. No, you need like someone to raise you right, essentially, since wealthy and influential friends or relatives will often asked to fulfill the role of the Godmother, of good father in the expectation...

...that their sponsorship would be avay you to the child in later life, which seems like a pretty literal and uninspired reading to me, although you've just sort of kind of works supported it. In some cultures, godparents and like really important. Yeah, I think, I think, now that you've said all that, I'm now all yes, no, he is right, but I read that. I just went you don't have a whole lot of fun with the story, though. Are Yes, the story is about raising children, right, and that that's all it's about. I'm like keep but it's also about the pair of imagination. That's how you raise children right, about my dreams, no time, no place for those, and a cauld and smash them it, Spencer. But if we're accepting the alignment between godmothers and their authors, then pro with perhaps suggesting that people need writers and stories to teach them how to live. This is the more abstract interpretation that I and pressure a sort of wanting to apply to it, which I think is an achronistic. But if we're reading reble still skin saying that's a penis, we can read Cinderella and say this is narrative, fairy tales. The spot cinerell's friend and chargins, the GRIMMS, include a version of it in their collection, citing as its source an anonymous woman in the Elizabeth Hospital. In my book, that's it. Yeah, it's like, that's not German becaus the love, that's coge being like, oh I dreamt this, you probably did dream. Yeah, I was on opium. But in the GRIMM's version, Cinderella has a golden slipper rather than the glass one, which reminded me of the gold hat in the wizard was, okay, the book version, so I think there's maybe a lineage there. Cinderella also originally wears wooden shoes, so that the shoe was more symbol of class rather than delicacy. That Dutch clogs, Cotch quogs. Yeah, maybe. Either way, there are arguments that the slipper was originally a first slipper and they afore meant to represent this is something that's also referenced in the Science of discordtern. But Kevin Paul Smith, who's the guy who had the taxonomy of all the different just jumping in here because in this next section I mistakenly credit the criticisms of Bullzac to Smith rather than bets, who's the editor of the pro collection. So Yeah, when we say Smith, it's Bet's, not Smith, until we get to talking about the implications of the mother's compared to which is a broader and that is actual Smith. Saying that carry on Dis misses this explanation saying that the idea comes from the French Rudder Horn our a dear bullsac, but I just looked at that. When a French rat to honey BALLSAC, who confuses the word beer for glass and there which is an old word for Squirrel, for Peter has told me this. Yeah Right. And BALLZAC argued that shoes would have been made out of fur rather than glass. It's very still symbol of wealth. It makes sense that it's more delicates hard to come by. I don't often times to like your peasants would wear first slippers just because they hunt animates and are their skins, maybe, rather than that being today, where you have hopefully Faufa vester and propaganda as as a sider class. I'm not sure about that. But Smith points out that this practical consideration is irrelevant for an already unrealistic story. The point is not that the the slipper is practical, it's that it's magic and fits only one for in that fur could be stretched but glass cannot. So it can't be a first slip, because then it breaks the story. Okay, you also it's that no text containing the alleged spelling of their the air, has ever been discovered, nor did BALLZAC provide any evidence for their being one. Yeah, BALLSAC, so this is more inaccurate psychoic nonsense. In the grimms version, the stepsis is also cut off the heels to fit in the shoes. I have their eyes picked out by birds that help Cinderella do her housework. It's pretty great at Cinerella's wedding. But yes, I thought was pretty brutal. Smith also points out that Cinderella is aged by the spirit of her dead mother in some early versions of the tail, pointing out that Embrella is ultimately aided by her mother, who was still alive and kicking in the person of Ur July. I got all more about her next part, and also points out that it is embrella's dead father, we animated as a Zombie by her mother, who acts to secure Mbrella's rightful inheritance. So again, as a weird sisters, we end up with someone who is the result of an affair with the king or Queen taking over the kingdom, MMM, which is a tribe. But also this is a structural similarity of Pratchett's tales, like if, which is abroad, is meant to be about subverting or avoiding the same ending over and over again. Crust she is doing that by using the same ending. That does he know? Not sure. We tell him what. Yeah, I don't think this is deliberate, I think. Again, he's like this is a subversion of the rightful ruler. The princess marries the kyding thing, but he's done it in the same way. MMM, she thought it was interesting. Yeah, no, agreed. Yeah, so that's Cinderella. There's also the reference to blue beard, which is a very significant story, I think, in academic circles, but I don't know if it's really that popular or wellknown in general. The certainly no Disney adaptation of it. It's because it's so horrified. Well, do you want to explain the story, since she's specifically read it, so you could do so. Blue beds a guy who know will marry because he has a blue beard's way, very wealthy guy. So it is specifically the blue beard that is turning people off him. He does eventually get a...

...wife. Somehow kind of tricks her and then he goes away for the weekend. He gives are all these keys and he's like hey, you can do anything, can go to this room, you can do that whatever, but don't use this key to get into this very specific room. And she's like yeah, sure, Horney, and then he leaves and then she's like she goes in all the rooms. And then the moment her friends come over and she's like now by and she goes and she goes in the room she's not meant to. She finds all of these horrifically mutulated bodies and is horrified to this blood on the key. She can't get it off. The husband comes home. He's like are you went into my room? I must murder you now. She somehow gets help, and then the her brother's, her brother's yea burst in. I assume there's some commentary there. We can go into and and murder him instead, because he's all like yeah, you will join them in that room. So that's fun. Before right, it's insatiable curiosity again. Yeah, yes, specifically. I mean I saw it as fastest, because it was like you was physically told love to do something and then you went into it. But yeah, it's also the fall. Mean it's God say the same. You can eat anything in this for us, but not that. Yeah, yeah, and then the woman being punished musically want that to come. Yeah. So you just summarize the Proro version of blue beard. Some heart's from the GRIMM's version, which was included in their original one thousand eight hundred and twelve collection, but later emitted due to its French argin. That's much of these stories we're finding out. Well, there's a stream of blood when she opens the door, which reminded me of the shining, but also, as you said, the key falls in the bloodn get stained the axience of her crime, which is mcbeath. Yeah, right, she tries to wash the blood off the key and yeah, pro version that you recited is pretty similar, although the morals he attaches at the end are worth examining. Do you want to read Nic's follow that? All right, all right, yourselves. Did you want to read the pros models for blue before? Curiosity's all very well in its way, but satisfy and you risk much remorse. The Feminine Sex will deny it, of course, but the pleasure you wanted, once taken, is lost and the knowledge you looked for is not worth the cost. So this is like curiosity killed the cat. WHO's one to go outside? Sorry, it's too late at seven o'clock a night. She's not that, which makes sense, but there's nothing that's moral about don't murder women and a sicker route. Thank you. She is a bit of a ID to say this. Later versions of the tail were often subtitled the fatal effects of curiosity or the effective female curiosity. So again this is like very explicitly imbedded into the tradition that it's original sin. But pro adds that people with sense, who use their eyes, will not take long to realize this is a tale of bygone days and what it tells is now untrue. The modern husband does not ask his wife to undertake a task impossible for her to do, and even when dissatisfied with her, he is quite as a mouse. What do you make it? That out? I mean, that's worse somehow, and also that also it was. I got. It's one of those like progress doesn't equal morality. Sort it is better that we don't want people. Yes, were this isn't the pinnacle of morality. But pro is sort of revising this fairy tale. Yeah, we're talking about where any new version is a revision, right, who saying this used to be about how men might literally murder their women and keep them in the martory is not moral at the end. Yeah, so he's updating the moral to update the fairy tale. He's until met story, but he's reinterpreting it MMM. or He's not even reinterpreting it. I guess he's just acknowledging that we haven't moved on, but he's not re interpreting it. Yeah, so maybe it's like not a reinterpretation. That's him doing. I should rewrite this, but I'm not going. I'M gonna put it down as not progress. It's like he was like too hard, I'll just change us the moral. This is true. And Yeah, he still maintains the priorities of that first moral about it's a thing about specifically female curiosity being punished. Yeah, I hadn't even heard of this very talentil's talking to Patrick About Angela Kada's the bloody chamber which, as we mentioned last episode, is sort of the canonical feminist fairy tale revision that. Have you read this one? I had read. I know about it. I had read it. Well, it's not really different story beatwise, HMM, except that it's her mother rather and her brothers who saved her at the end. Okay, which seems like a very basic feminist revision fairy. So I didn't really get it, although Smith's does a really good close reading of it in the postmung fairy tale explaining a lot of the subtleties, which are really subtle, okay, and that gave me a bit more of an appreciation for it. I won't go into them here, but I do highly recommend looking at that opposing much fairytale. Okay, when allies in Carda's bloody chamber, Smith observes that Kata's unnamed female protagonist is aware of the blue bed story herself, since she makes a reference to clockwork, to blur or blue beard that you see in glass cases affairs, and also makes knowing references to the stories of Pandora Andy. Okay. Indeed, before she goes to open the chamber, she reads a whole bunch of books about Pandora and mysterious keys and reproofs of curiosity, leading Smith to wonder why cats protagonist even enters the blood chamber at all if she is aware of these precedents and already knows the story of Blue Beard herself. Takes us back to the first moral of like, you know, to be trained that, yeah, women are insatiable. MMM. But Maria Tada, who counted all the words and the groom stories that we were talking about last episode, argues that the protagonist has no choice, since as soon as we learn about the dire consequences that...

...will attend the mere touching of a spindle, we know that Brian Rose will somehow search out and find the only spindle left in her fat's kingdom. This is narrative causality. Her argument is that in Carter's version, HMM, the late, even though she knows the morals, is trapped within this formula. Is that some debaux last ship? Yes, yeah, Ye, a learning. Yeah, this is doing the project thing, but again by implication. M Yeah, yeah, that. Well, she knows all this, but she still fors to because that's the way stories repeat. Yeah, or it's patriarchal and from in position. The latter. Smith argues that if we take a closer look at prose blue beard, we begin to see that the heroine is not punished for her curiosity. He points out that even in that version, through her husband's death, prous protagonists, escapes the fate of her predecessors because she's like, is what fifth or six wife or something has happened before. So this is the story, not about the woman who was killed for a curiosity, but the woman who avoided being killed at parish for a curiosity and that she actually inherits the castle at the end of the story. So female empowerment. Get your brothers to beat up the guy who has mean to you. Okay, so warner concurs, claiming the blue beard is a version of the fall where he've gets away with it, with Carter's version accentuating on the complicity between Paro and his heroine and reclaiming the feminist nature of the tale. Interestingly, there is a similar story in the groom's first collection called that castle of murder up which was later admitted due to its Dutch origins and similarity to blue beard. It's essentially the same story where we're wait to the grims were only using German all. That was the idea. Is Meant to be a collection of German fairy time. I came right in that story, though. In the castle of murder, the door isn't forbidden is instead they're guarded by an old woman who was scraping intestines outside the door. These are implied to be human intestines cooking his victims, because that's the other thing. He's an Ogre's Accounibal, which all fairytale villains are, apparently, but this woman ends up helping the girl escape and then disguises herself and then exposes blue beard by telling his story to feast. Right, so, storytelling, but also was the feminist subversion therefore already built in to the story and then written out by hero and never feels. Yeah, it is showing that the man is the bad guy here and yeah, and then gets replaced by Carter and other presence revises letter. So it's cyclical, right, yeah, but yeah, this shows how very persistent the shapes of stories do change. So last episode we spent ages analyzing sleeping beauty, and that was evolves, despite the relatively slide references, which is abroad. And this time we're going to do that with Lo frob prince, which in the Grimm's collection is actually called the front king, or Iron Heinrich sap mean. So Heinrich is the name of the King's servant who got so sad when the king disappeared because he loved the king so much. Right, yeah, iron bands around his heart and then when the king returns, the band's burst because of his love for the king. I did read this one. That's that's some gaze uptext jet ID and are okay, I've never thought about it. I mean, I guess more decas one really like a king. I'm assuming people know the story of the four prince but to the princess her she just a was. She's a princess which just like you got a favorite ball and it rolls into the swamp and then she goes and there's a frog nanting and says, I'll get your ball if you give me a kiss, and then she kiss and turns it to a into a front. That's how we understand the story. Yeah, that's not what happened. In happens in the GRIMM's version, in the groom's version, she promises the frog a kiss, but she doesn't give it to it. HMM, and the king demands of these daughter should keep her promise, like the story is all about. You said you were going to give this guy this thing and you're lying and you're a bad princess or super cooloutruism. Yeah, and and he's and the frogs like falling around. He's just he's just a frog steal. Yeah, everybody's like, he's talking frog. The game doesn't object to that. Are Again, it's yeah, so the frogs hanging out with the princess going hey, you promise me a kiss. Hmmm, like or maybe it's just marriage, but you know, sex stuff. Yeah, he's like, I you promised that you would take me with you and do all this stuff. I want to eat at your table and sleep in your bed. But yeah, the implication is that. Well, I think it's like it's marriage. Yeah, and she gets up getting so mad at him that she throws him against the wall and that's when he turns back into the prince from murder, turns into print. I guess the implication there is rather than if you kiss something ugly, it becomes the Prince. It's that like if the morals meant to be about her breaking her promise and condemning the princess is behavior, the idea that when she finally threw him away, it was revealed that he was what she wanted sort of thing. Right. Yeah, so the moral there is more about keep promises and maybe not judging people by their appearance rather than true love. M But it's also forcing the princess into a nonconsensual crossbecy sexual relationship. So instead of great idea, in that version of the grains one, the king is turned into a frog by a wicked which. But that's not why it's interesting. It's interesting because of all the connections between which is abroad, and the two thousand and nine Disney animated film, the Princess and the frog, and which is abroad, came before, well before. Yeah, this is a broads in. Yeah, one thousand nine hundred and ninety one, and he's two thousand and nine. I still don't think it exists, despite having actually seen it now, right, so just for ages a. When you sell the catalog of like Disney movies,...

I'll be like, what the fuck is that one? I've never seen this film. It's it's probably in the gap where I become, you know, old, I'm aged out of Disney, but two thousand and nine I'm nineteen time, well out of the target market. Okay, but I'll say younger sisters that I would take to the movies and I'd take him to see brave and all the kids, girls and slaves. Good and I just missed that one. And then I'd look at I'll be like what is this fucking movie that I've never heard of? Like, even if you haven't seen the movies, you see like Disney Princess Shit everywhere and I'd never seen anything from it. Okay, I finally watched it in preparation for this podcast and yeah, it's fine, right, like me to Disney. At best, he has a dream. Yeah, okay, we'll get through. Yeah, there's some near Liberals Bullshit in there, but yeah, I'm so be you like this movie I've brought up before. An you really I like? Yeah, this one, brave and tangled a probably my favorite Ross. Yeah, yeah, which I've brave of those braves my favorite, and like brave, mostly because you know where there's. Yeah, but more it's just my bare so there's lots of obvious connections. Right. Setting. Both are said in New Orleans or a New Orleans esque type of place. Yeah, genuine based on New Orleans. Pratchett's explicitly said that, as we will discuss later. And then you've got the vood and baron Saturday is the main antagonist. Didn't Yep, a movie, but that movie is actually based on another postmodern fairy tower revision, which is the two thousand two children's novel the front princess by Edie Baker. Okay, now, if you want to hear more about that, you can go and listen to the princess and the frog episodes of the Disney story origins podcast that we talked about. The story in that book is quite different from the movie. Apparently it's just like an adaptation in name only. That book is not, said, in New Orleans, just setting a generic European fantasy world. Okay. Nor is there any rood, which makes the resemblance to which is a broad sort of even more curious. So I don't know what that like. How they both get to New Orleans Voodoo from fairy tower revision like. Is it just that frogs equal swamps and swamps are in New Orleans? kind of thought of that. I think it's linked to what you're about to talk about a little bit. I don't yeah. Well, I think this is a bit of a tangent, but I do want to address some of the things that the presenter of the Disney Story Origins Podcast, Paul J Hale, says on these episodes. So he points out that the film version is very specifically dated to the era of World War One through references made in the film to Woodrow Wilson. It was the president of the United States during the war, Yep, and he also points out that the film is Anachronistic Sense. There is no depiction of black segregation. Yep, which is particularly interesting since the film features the first and only black Disney princess. Hmmm, and in the in the film she loses her father in the war that was. He all points out this is kind of bullshit, since there was like segregation. That exists in the army as well, and there's a whole thing about African Americans serving in World War One. Yep. But he defends this decision to like not include that in the film, saying that the film was meant to represent a fantasy and a better version of history for children to aspire to. It's a movie about frogs and princesses and chasing your dreams. Is at which I think would be fine. HMM. If, yeah, if Disney had decided to depict a nebulous, imaginary moment in history. Right, this is just old time in your leans. But the fact that they've specifically dated it to Woodrow Wilson and World War One, I don't know why they've done that. But then if you're going to put that in there, then you're presenting a version of the past that's sort of I want to say white washing, but obviously that would but it is. Well, yeah, I guess I would be appropriate. And the bit that particularly ranks with that is Tiana's annoying friend, the one in all the fill dresses. Her father is called Big Daddy. Yeah, and that's a name often associated with like sugar plantation. psycholist. So you don't like Tennessee Williams, I mean who does? I don't really know. Tennis on a streetcoming desire. Yeah, I don't know of an likely PAT and Hopton roof. Again, big daddy is an interesting antagonist, protagonist in it, and big daddy like he is a tycoon of the short plantation. Yeah. So, yeah, it's even are more on the notes for me through that. And then and Disney's like saying, Oh, we're doing commentary on it, but they're not. It's to children have to go up and learn the history on their own to actually recognize the problems. Otherwise they just end up thinking history was all find a dandy, yeah, rather than giving them sort of an idealizes, think, to aspire to. Yeah, giving them an idealize past to paint over exactly past. I mean usual prococondas at least shows racism. Right, yeah, especially when the messages of the Front Princess Film is All about how you just need to work hard to achieve your dreams. Yeah Right. She's working the home movie to open our restaurant, but I don't think that's going to happen. While segregation as a thing, but she's not allowed to earn a restaurant in the same areas with the white customers and every the wealthy white customers like this isn't happening. So no matter how hard she works. So yeah, yeah, but this is an example. is to bring it back to, which is abroad, is this is an example of short of stories reshaping history. HMM. So children who grow up watching this film and don't question it grow up with the idea that everything was Hunky Dory for Africanamericans in the S and they should simply pull themselves up by their botstraps. Liberal is a I'm sort of cautious here to clarify that I'm not criticizing hail no who.

In the most recent episode he uploaded, he's pretty distressing. He sort of describes a lot of fan male, not fan male, that he's gotten, saying that he gets cold, racist and and things like that. I don't think he's a racist, right, we're not saying that, but there is quite a bit of political correctness gone mad in some of his delivery that we should turn down. Yeah, but I'm not criticizing him, I'm criticizing what Disney's doing here. Yeah, but what I think hale is overlooking is how story shape people's perceptions of the world, regardless of the reality or empirical facts, which is precisely what pratchet is pointing out it, which I mean that's genuine. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that this film that represents or reflects, to use the mirror analogy, which is the broad so much it's sort of reiterating the thing that Pratchett is specifically rallying against him, which is abroad. Just compend on that thought. Oh, yeah, gone. So I went looking for something on Patrick School the other day. I sorry, put up Seventeenth Century dillo. No, I'm something else. It was satin related, okay, and then I saw about the time that I asked him for bookshop recommendations for Sydney. He then obviously done a real think about it. Writ the post like a cut, and then a bunch of other posts and he has done a whole post about the phrase, put a pin in it and basically proven that the phrase is actually to do with women reading, because they would reach for a sewing thing, which in those days was like long wooden things, and then pop it in as bookmark. And that's how Buzz Pu put it. Pin it and any like like really methodically works for an. He's like, it's not this in the oxidection is wrong. Everyone's wrong. It's this. I figured it out. Everyone, sit down. That blog post over another like that's some good shit. That's yeah, there's specific fairytale sort of doubt, with a bit on stow white coming up. And now I want to zoom out a bit and talk about Disney himself, because we're Disney himself. Disney himself done themselves by Disney Corporation. Evil or not? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, way evil. Yeah, kind of know, a multi because no, Yep, I need three business days because Jenny genuine is not just New Orleans, it's Disneyland or more specifically, it is Disney world. MMM, so proteice said. I'm discusses a bit more later. That January is inspired by Disneyland and New Orleans. There it's a conflation of those two places. HMM. Yes, we've just spent a lot of time talking about these fairytales, talking about the Disney adaptations, to Disney princess and things, because the shapes of these stories that we are most familiar with these days come from the popular animated Disney Films of the Midden late twenty centuries and beyond now, I guess. But the twenty one century ones like tangled that we were talking about, and even frozen, more subversive. Yeah, where is? It's the sort of mid twenty century stuff that is these traditional, servative, conservative, patriarchal fairytak value as well. Yeah, and a Smith points out, these are as much revisions of proceding fairy tales as the later postmon ones, and you start to see what we consider their traditional values being subverted in the later Disney Renaissance FIMS of the S, which is something thereserve has written about, pointing out how in the films the princess has become more independent, more capable and more athletic as well, like you have jasmine pole vaulting over things. Is there was a observes the princess who emerges from this kingdom is not the same princess who emerged from the tales of Proo all the brothers groom or from the folklore of the past at all. She characterizes the classic Disney Princesses, such as Snow Right and Cinderella R, I realize, like don't have names. HMM, which is something anytime you do any feminist analysis of anything, the first thing people why now is the women don't have names. Yes, so she characterizes these classic Disney princesses as embodiments of Hollywood starlets and the early twenty century middle class. Later, however, in the Disney renaissance films of the late s and N S, which came out approximately two decades after the death of well Disney himself, when the studio came under the control of a management group led by Michael Eisman, the Disney princesses of the Disney renaissance became more independent, capable moving with the grace of sportswomen rather than domesticated servants. They had to fumigate the Disney out of it. But again, like to me, is this just fitting female figures in traditionally male roles? It's yeah, it's not. Mainly it's not really bringing together the two, is it? They're being capable, but they're sort of they're just filling in the rolls of what the men would usually do. M and they have to hide some of their capabilities, jazmine in particular. Yeah, I mean the possible count of example, this is Belle from beating the beast, who seems a bit more balant. She's a bit more like selfdetermined. She reads and she's like she's the protagonist. Rather than that, I guess Procoum just as a protagonist as well, but like Milan, which I had a lot of problems without. Maybe that movie is bad way begin but she is literally taking on a man's role. That is the point of that movie, and the Big Song for is will make a man out of you. Right. But also all these Disney movies, with the exception of Balan, are also my favorite Disney movies because I grew up in the N S and I'm a dudes. I'm like, Fuck Yeah, Lion King, let's go. Yeah, is this a good time for us to sort of care about on Disney films for a bit, for do you have anything to say about Disney films? I don't like the earlier ones. It's not until...

...the Nuney. A few thousands I like. I didn't even I only like beating the beast because she had the library, and I think that's every academic I met is like, Oh yeah, well, she room. I could never get behind the people who are like our but the beast is sexy, though. Still don't understand that. Gaston is the worst, and thats not fucking sucks, but he's meant to suck in those movies where he would have been the hero of exactly. I do think, though, that some people get behind gased on. Like I met some dudes at school there like, oh, but guest on's pretty cool, though teenage boys are not good more, I know, but that's hard when you're a teenage girl and you're like what and I'm in trick. It's not a just think that it's a very gay all these movie, the one we're over looking that. I know you like his Hercules. I love Hercules. I know you came to not like it. I did not like it. I was just I recently really watched it because we were talking about how much we loved Hercules and then I went brea watch it. It wasn't as good as I remember. There's a lot of down time. Essentially, might come away from it was it's only great when Hades is on screen. Oh, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, but there's also like so much cool matter. Well, that's what all the illusions. It's definitely the most subversive and revisionist in the sense of these nice films. Well, I propaganic. We talked about this. You were like it's up from yeah, it's really right. They change it around. They say yeah, they say is Lous, was defeat at the Times or something, but zoos over through the time and they makes you look like a good guy throughout. The fire lace fucking sucks. Who Sucks? and Hercules actually kind of sucks too, and I do think it's good. I just I'd also come off rewatching beating the beast and the animation of of Hercules is it's not, after the same. Yeah, it's not the eight student, but also some of the best music. Sorry, that's true. It I think it has the best soundtrack. Yeah, easily. Yeah, there is a guy on twitter. I can send you the thing. Maybe you can put it in, who does these great breakdowns of like specific little details that Disney have included in that, which have a lot of Grittin you did send me days. Very cool. The only thing I remembered was learning that make is based on the shape of pots and then questioning a lot of how I feel about pots. But the only thing about these films is there. We get this threat of female and Powermeth, but the right is and directions of these films are old dudes is frozen. I can't make a statement. Let me look it up. It was generally so that's a wall and Chris Buck well, they rewrote it to be two women so they could have the duet of let it girl. I'll really listen to the Disney princess death death battle. have been recommending that to pick cool. I actually listen to it just but I know some people who are really keen on that and I don't like everything. So that's there. was are observes. The title of Disney princess became increasingly democratic during the second half of the twenty century, even being extended to encompass non human animals in films like lady in the tramp, the ARISTA ATS and the like. In one thousand nine hundred and fifty five for the lady in the track. Yeah, I mean that's sort of UN does her argume in a bit that it's that old? Yeah, although our lady isn't really I don't know if she counts as a princess if we want to get technical where it's Nalo and the lion king is a princess. Did we learn on that? Did we thought we learned on she didn't. The people on the Disney podcast in included because they were just doing humans. Yeah, we discussed it, I thought. Yeah, we discussed it, but the argument wasn't whether she's a princess. I agreed now it is definitively a princess. Right. The argument was whether she beats human people in it. That was the argus it. Okay, yeah, you were saying Lion Beats Human, but I was pointing out that Gaston has a sword and a gun. I thought it was the princess, first princess, though. Oh yeah, that might have been scar. Yeah, I think you were on the side line beats human and I was on the side. Okay, but beats lying because all the Disney princesses armed magical. She's a lot. I mean this is like points out. I think nolla defeats the Old Disney Princess. Yeah, and Bolls Snow wide. Seven water and she's just flopping about. And seven waves that. Yeah, Cinderella gone, sleeping beauty shoes. This line there for the taking. Yeah, but you get an are up against jasmine. Ormalam, I got a fuck a bitch up. MMM, I need to see it. During this period, they also ceased being orphans and became, quote, dirty's little girl. HMM. So, for example, was the ro zero points out area, was the favorite daughter of King Triton, whereas Jasmine and Pocahuntas are beloved only children. Right, done about the Little Mermaid? Yeah, so you know it's going to like swim to get to her. She just drown. Oh, I wasn't even there. Yeah, I was just thinking that other actually, they do stipulate in the Disney death battle podcast that they take the princesses as they are at the end of the film. Dumb. What's an aim? Well, that the argument is that they've gone through their full arc. That's meant to be their final. I see the hue and she's just chos. So, yeah, I think she there's nothing then and say no, defeats Ariel, yeah, or was there. was there. Also observes not one of Disney's princesses has a mother or a brother. Still now one has a mum, but she doesn't. Is Not as mom won she said. She's like, you can't go with him. Buds. She liked rapped with is. No, were a princess then or she know. She becomes a princess by my man Sim so she's dead by then because all the lines get killed. Yeah, but the point here is that mothers are still demon on us, so they becomes all she is. Yeah, I mean Rapunzo's kind of the reversion of the latest supposed...

...one. Even though it's maybe in the most feministly subversive, it's still modeled on these old fairy tales, so it's carrying through some of those implications. I guess the one Disney film that goes like weighing on the mother stuff is brave. But even then she gets turned into a bear and raised by her father through the whole thing. And baby like baby, the mother gets killed. Yeah, I know it's not just a new princess thing, but God damn, that's just stories about often to that traumatize you. Oh, I never really watched baby. Probably because when I was a boy I was like don't watch this. But yeah, I watched her once and that was enough. Yeah, it's not one that was really in my rotation. I mean I was very the the nice stuff was I watched because I was born in one thousand nine hundred and ninety. That's our opinions about Disney. But what did the expert sales? YEA, so Jack Slips who, as we mentioned in part one, is the academic authority where it comes to fairytale revisions, argues in the chapter breaking the Disney spell from one nine hundred Ninety Four Book Fairytale as Myth, myth as fairy tale, that the great magic of the Disney spell is that he animated the fairy tale only to transfix audiences and divert their potential utopian dreams and hopes through the false promisses of the images he cast upon the screen. So that's further observes how Disney uses his specifically American grip and ingenuity to appropriate European fairy tales. M That's another thing. We're getting Americanized versions of all these traditionally fraction frame is embedded in all the right yes, the opposite of Oz oh no, that's like says that, although the plots varied and the themes and characters are altered, his Americanized fairy tales only reinforce our patriarchal symbolic order based on unbridgid notations of sexuality agenda. Nothing new here, just this is what the big guy is saying. Bigin it's act. Well, and he does not like Disney. So in his chapter walk, Disney civilizing mission in his one thousand nine hundred and eighty three book fairy tales in the art of subversionsls further, I geas the disneys fairy tale revolution was a major regression and calls many of the liberating aspects of the fairy tale to be tamed and turned in against themselves, stating that the Disney civilizing process leads to the generation of Utopia. So yeah, literally being as yet dystrophia. I gone around about how Dystrophia is not the opposite of Utopia. They're actually on the other side. Sorry, the anti trying to words, but no one knows what one of those is. They should have conflict. Thank you. You hit me with them. The mentoring candidate, and I'm broken, she said. I know all those as acknowledges that, since the cinematic medium is a popular form of expression and is accessible to a larger public, Disney actually also returns the fairy tale to a broad audience and the majority of people. But still, he characterizes Disney films as an attack on the literary tradition of the fairy tale, which robs the literary tale of its voice and changes its form and meeting as lives. Observes, disneys emphasis is on purification, preparing oneself to become chosen and a member of the elite, and he says that this American cleansing process, which is based on meritocracy, replaces the old schmiter of the European Fair Tale, while at the same time restoring notions of hierarchy and eliteism, reinforcing redundant behavior and leading to a static, dystopian vision of the world, like they just appropriating and all and forcing it through like a votex of American values. So ZAC describes disneys to Stopian closing process, and the following that he says that in Disney's films, the technology, technique artistic appeal takes precedent over the stories themselves, so that people are sort of carried away by the spectacle rather than engaging with the narrative and reflecting on its messages, and that although in Disney films these traditional fairy tale characters are fleshed out to become more realistic and more fuller characters, they were still remaining one dimensional stereotypes. And he says these seductive, scy typical images are exported through movie screens to colonize other natural audiences in so far as the ideas and types are portrayed as models of behavior to be emily is. Essentially, it's not just contained to America. This is like worldwide inference. Have Americanized the world, right, and now Disney everyone, I can have the American dread, you get the American Ject, you get the American dream. Well, I mean the fact that you're explaining that use through oper us. Yeah, no, I know what I was doing. Will put into which is abroad, however, is the zips. Also says that what makes Disney's artistry appalling wall, no matter how delightful some of these characters and scenes are, is the repetition of a patent typical of Hollywood and Bor away musicals, which repeat the same romantic endings, pointing out that from Snow White and the seven dwarves onwards up through beauty and the beast, writers and directors in Disney studios have all operated within the same formula. So we as we discussed before, things sort of change in the S, but it's not the details of these stories, it's the structure of them that is reinforcing behavior, which is what practice. Rallying Against Yep, which is broad. Those are address as life's criticisms in her two thousand and four article, the princess and the Magic Kingdom. She is there. Won't Disney is, perhaps more than any other fairytale teller, with the exception of mother goose, portrayed as a fairytale figure himself, and that, instead of being portrayed as a storyteller, he's in still portrayed...

...as a prince and a King of his own magic kingdom right his little sex out yea, which your self is an international conglomerate whose corporate logo is that's I'm was thinking that immediately. I'm like, Oh, yeah, he's called where. He's a King Prince Corporation, all know, as lips observes, Snow White is another story. That was made even more conservative and patriarchal by Disney. In the GRIMM's version of Snow White, the princess absolutely the end of the story, and it's not his kiss that revives Snow White, but the dwarf was accidentally jolting the piece of poison apple from her throat. When they carrying a coffin. They saw a stumble and the like pop save about. Oh, she was alive along. So we're getting this idea of true loves first kisses, something that's installed later. However, Disney's version, which is Disney's first major success and kicks off the whole Disney princess thing, begins with the prince singing a song of devotion to Snow White, and it's his kiss that turns out to be the only antidote to the queen's poison. Come its conclusion, Disney's reinforcement and extension of the GRIMM's Patriarchal ideology leads ups to declare him their perfect disciple, even suggesting the Disney figures himself as the prince in his version of Snow White, lurking in the background while the disenfranchised dwarf do all the work, and then swooping in to take the credit. Okay, I follows eyes, but also that's given and Gilding the bar do some Goolan goobarbor shit. Yeah, we'll clarify that in part through hang on for that guy's so of course little it's mirrors are an allusion to the evil queen and Snow White, who asks her mirror, Mirror on the wall. WHO's the fairest of them all, me LAS. Apparently everyone shot it down. Ironically, compared to which is abroad, where mirrors can only create false imitations, the Queen and the GRIMM's version of snow white is made content because she knew the mirror always told the truth. In the GRIMM's version, she's also another Ogre Cannibal who was described as wicked and eats what she thinks a snow white's liver and lungs brought back by the hunts. Oh God. She's also the one who is forced to wear the heated iron slippers and Dan's the snow word's wedding, until she does at the end. So that's where we get lily's reference to putting on the red hot shoes and dating the night away. and which is abroad and the grim fairy tale, how that we could queen danced in red hot shoes and think of time. There's a bit of tension in which is broad, however, because lily resents which has been made to dats to death while everyone lives heavily ever after, which is fair enough for an I'm on teaming early at this point. But then she goes about it by enforcing or reinforcing the kind of stories who's narrative Causali. The causes, which is to be treated like this in the first place. Yeah, I don't know really, I'm not really sure what Lily's motivation is. I'm sure. I think it's just pratchet being like Hallad. We throw a match on this, okay, and just implodes the idea by turning it back on itself, like you can't just keep going demonizing, which is just because, like, they're women and they have this role. He's like that people too. But yeah, it doesn't quite make sense to me. logularity it. She wants control m but she doesn't like the way stories portrayed, which is so she's making the world act like a story that even has as witches. I'm not quite sure how that works. Writing in the two thousand and six second edition of Fairy Tales in the out of sub version, ZIP's hopes that films such as the truck series, Popular Studio gively Film Spirited Away Castle meant that fairy tales would again be used to question the denigration of Utopia. However, he cautioned that the establishment of more open ended type of Utopian fairytale films in America would depend not so much on changes in the culture and industry, but more on real social changes in the ideological bent of the American people and how they try to impose that ways of democracy on other countries in the world. I mean, yeah, but yeah, he's running. Listen to that six and sorry to say, but this did not happen. Did Not Happen, did not happen. Not only not become a well, not a utopia, it became more conservative, more pure realistic, but for Azon happened? HMM, and sort of all that progress gone. Is the princesses are back in. Yeah, and they're slightly subversive compared to earlier does in princesses, but it's not great. Yeah, this didn't happen. I mean, yeah, you do have frozen as a story about two sisters rather than I mean, it passes the back doll test. That's about it. Yeah, Malama, I don't like Morena just because I think the wrong fucking sucks in that movie. Then my mom rounded with music for I do it well, because the next I was gonna says I fucking hate the risk in that film. Really, I tried to watch on a plane that no, I'd switched it off because I just hated the music and I hated the rock singing and I did not like it. Okay, I didn't like the crab, bad guy crab. I'm going to get behind us. She is perhaps a little bit more subversive, but the Disney princess death better. People lose their mind over her. Oh, I forgot, of course. Yeah, they love on one. I'M A wee. Time didn't speak to me. Now I can see that that one is a bit more subversive than ones that are thinking about it, but needs a rewatch. It is her being very independent who using a femininity. The other thing he here, apart from like sort of the Disney princess renaissance, that these postmodern subversions like trick and things get sterilized. Trick becomes a meme that becomes this endless series of sequels that no one cared about. But I'll see. You should like to speak for me. And the minions, where everything becomes, yes, sterilized postpond response, where that just becomes the concert mestertle itself. Yeah, Surek did have meaning, but it,...

...yeah, it becomes when even how's moving castle itself is a, I think, a sterilized version of that fairytale. Have you read Dino when Jones? Yeah, when I was very young. The I don't love the house moving castile Moba. I think that is long, that it's way too long and I think it perhaps Wales with spectacle rather and fully fledge characters, but I mean it's completely written to be an analogy for the the Japanese words, but in the book, like it's dark at the end, they like rip people's heads off and there's I like how's moving castle. I enjoy watching it, but how himself is such a shit. Is He boronic? Yeah, he's Byronic and that's why people like him and I get annoy but I do think in retrospect, your right aback, Rivero Gribo is not bionic. Don't think you he's not sulky enough okay, all right, it's not tortured like he's using that aspect now. You're right. Conversely, there was ero points out that in one thousand nine, hundred and fifty nine sleeping beauty, the three fairy godmothers give up their magic ones for housework and that these three tiny, ugly fairies are the actual rescuers of the princess, simply working through the prince, who they're rescued from Mollificence, don't Jack, which does remind me of weird sisters a bit. But the point there was ero is making here is that, although sleeping beauty isn't the agent of change of action in the film, it is still the elderly, which is the three fairies, that who they rescue the prince before he rescued sleeping gear. Let me do all the work. So even though sleeping beauty seems like the more most conservatives in the film, it is sort of the closest to Projett's weird sisters subversion. Okay, I follow you. Yeah, something down on there. So I want to finish a part too, by talking a bit about Disneyland. Have you been? No, I've been to the Paris. While it was pretty cracky. I don't like humans. So I mean I like roller coasts. There Roller coasters there, there was are. I was so terrified by all the humans. It was a traumatic experience. All right, yeah, but now I haven't been. So, according to correspondence with the L space annates project, in vision genuine as New Orleans with a magic kingdom grafted on top of it, which he came out while driving from Orlando, Florida, where Disney world is, to New Orleans, noticing that in one place you go there and fun as manufactured at presented to you, while the other you just eating, drinking. A lot of fun happens more genuine. So now this is something the French philosopher gene border lad also noticed when defining the central postmodern concept of the similar craft, which we've brought up almost every episode. I think so, the way he explains, and not very clearly at all. We spent days of deciphering this to dry and come up with a clear explanation of a similarcro and we'll see if I've succeeded. So, according to border lad, a similar chrome is a simulation or signifier of something. For Sh there's no longer an original. It's A. It's a copy of something that's become its own thing, Yep, and replace the original. This is something that Phil K Dick Talks about a lot. I mean he has a book called the similar ACROA. But Sim lacas in his books are the robots. They are the androids of blade runner. There robot that, instead of being copies of people, have become people themselves. I'm following. Actually, I think this is the most of understood it, okay, at all, in our friendship. So Borderland says this is the end result of a cultural process or procession through for orders of Simulation, which he explains using boy's is one thousand nine hundred and forty six story on exactitude in the science, which is the story of the map that becomes the territory. And boorderloup begins his definition of the similar care saying you want to read this one if funds. We were able to view the boogez story, in which the cartographers of the empire drop a map so detailed that it ends up covering the territory exactly, as the most beautiful allegory of simulation. This fable is now come full. So be for us and possesses nothing but the discrete charm of Second Order Similarcera. Today, abstraction is no longer that of a map, the double, the mirror or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being or a substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality, a hyper real. The territory is no longer precedes the map, not as it survive it. It is nevertheless the map that precedes the territory and, if one must return to the fable, today it is the territory whose shreds slowly rocked across the extent of the maps. This is literally the first paragraph of Borgial Arts explanation of the similar croup. This is as good as it gets. This is as clear, and of course, this is translations. was clear. Yeah, I've tried to sort of break this down. So the first order of similar simulation is a simple map. Yeah, it's a representation of something, that already thing. Yep, in the second order, the map and the territory are indistinguishable. It's a perfect representation, capable of replacing the thing but still existing alongside it. Because is the boy story, where the map is so exact that you laid on top of the territory. You can't tell if there's a man fully this far right. It's also like if you make a perfect copy of something, like I guess art to my claiming you, if you claim me, but I'm still here right. Yeah, now two of me, but you can't tell which one were. No original, one is a copy, one is the original. Yeah. Now, in the third order, which is the order of the hyperreal that defines postmoneism, that orders talking about here, the territory is replaced by the map, which also masks or hides its absence. So if your climb killed you, yeah, and just went about living my life and you didn't know that I was dead, you just thought I just it's...

...still josh, but it's not. It's something else that you can't tell apart. It's the boy he story. This is the idea that you've covered the territory with the map and then everyone just goes about walking on the map because it's effectively the same. Then you lift up the map in the land underneath it's disappeared, and that's terrifying because the point is that you don't know. Yes, you can't tell. You don't know, you can't tell that. The point is that real and simulation become blurred and we sort of see this like or now we're wearing. I don't know if we will ever being a post postmoneism, but he's running this in I think it's the Sho's running this. We're well beyond that right, like the Internet's not even a thing. You think about the Internet and social medias. Yeah, I'm my God, and even like second life and things where, yeah, you have people going by their screen name and stuff like. What is their real identity? It's sort of this idea that, because everything is manufactured, what's real? But things like where you have like twitter, by some things where they feed them data and then they can, like we produce like an ACDC song or something just from data gathered from and then they spit out a song. That may as well be an ACDC song. So if you put a bunch of fleas a dicks and room and they were a hamlet yese writers, that would be a similar of Hamlet. That would be a second order similar Acre of Hamlet, because it's an effective which is, as far as I thought. WHO This is for that to be a third order postman hun for us a Laker. I think you would have to replace Shakespeare with a giant Flac of Dick. Okay, I pretty feel that's what it is. I think. So, yeah, whats right this in the S, where this was just an idea, of sort of a thought experiment, I think we're passes, like we've been through postmon thesm if we're not out the other side of it, like where are we? Post Truth? Post truth is the idea of of some mark or what's real faking us. So we've been living with this. I reckon we're between three and four at the stage. Now, the fourth and final level. There is no real everything is simulation, which so this is the kind of there. Sometimes we have ourselves and we have our online social media. But what if just there were no real people and there was just a bunch of social media? Were not far away from there, are we, I guess? Maybe to go a step further, what if there were no people? HMM, and somehow social media was just this perpetuating thing, like your thing. We feed the acasy lyrics and a ransmacy. Easy strain into that. But even if you're rid of the brain in the Bagst of that you know the Chinese room experiment. Now, so this is philosophical thought experiment to sort of try and explain the difference between consciousness and Revi is MMMM. And the other of the Chinese room is you have a Chinese speaker in one room and you have a non Chinese speaker on the other room, and the person who doesn't speak Chinese has to translate something into Chinese, one word at a time. They write I worked on a piece of paper and they slip it through the door and the person in the Chinese being translated into Chinese and returns it and you build up the message that way, right, and then you give the people who wanted the Chinese translation, you give it to them, but the person who's done the translation, the Nonchrainese specut, they don't understand what they've done. They've just like done. It's through our course. This is the idea. How to define artificial intelligence. Like you, are robots able to think or are they just running this process? Yeah, process, right. So what if you had something like that where we fed a an artificial intelligence enough data that it could replicate facebook and have all these people talking to each other, right, but none of these people exist. There are normal people in the world, but there may as well be people because the same things got running. Yeah, right, it has been left up. Does that make sense? Oh yeah, that like it's that in the Matrix or the matrixes are some yeah, okay, right, so, yeah, but that's the third order. Maybe we can't tell what's was real, whereas maybe the fourth order is do you get out of the Matrix? Instead of there being the real world, there just is no real world. There was all the mats. Should he use that instead of the shit inception? Oh No, was one science fiction. Yeah, Jesus Christ. Well, the other thing is healings. Really specifically, this is all tied into these science ficture tropes, because borderlied in this, not in the same essay but in the same collection where he's trying to work at some Laker says that science fiction is part of this. Defines three other modes and I haven't read these down. This is all coming off me now, so I mic fuck this up, but this is the way similar car producer. He says the first point is Utopia. HMM, and this is the idea that there's another world that we should imitate that. The second mode is science fiction, which is an attempt, yes, they had, trying to connect ideals to the real world. And then the next versions, Postmon isn't, where you can't tell what's real, what's differing. First one, sure of things, but I guess like that's fantasy, right, like we're he's talking about the ways people think, thinks. So these are different categories to what he's talking about earlier. But if we look at these four stages of simulation that it's defining in the procession of Similarca if the first is an imitation, that's realist fiction, right. Yeah, yeah, and then the second break me. The second one, which is you can't tell them apart, like what's real what isn't. Maybe that is science fiction and saying it's a fantasy, but it's like the real world. Then the third order, where there is no real world, it's all just that's postmondism, right, and maybe press modern science fiction. HMM. But then we're everything is simulation, there is no real he's talk about fantasy. Yeah, yeah, so it's a fantasy world.

This is a complex postmone French philosophy concept. But this is important and relevant because border l are specifically uses Disneyland as an example to explain the SIMULACA. Do you want to read borderline's description of Disneyland? Alice? Sure Do. Disneyland is a perfect model of all the entangled orders of SIMILARCA. It is, first of all a player of allusions and phantasms. But what attracts the crowds the most is, without a doubt, the social microposm, the religious, miniaturized pleasure of Real America, of its constraints and joys. Thus, everywhere in Disneyland, the objective profile of America, all its values, are exalted by the miniature and the comic strip, embalmed and pacified. But this masks something else, and this ideological blanket functions as a cover for the simulation of the third order. Disneyland exists in order to hide that it is the real country, all of Real America. Disneyland is presented as imaginary in order to make us believe that the rest is real, whereas all of Los Angeles and the America that surrounds it are no longer real but belong to the hyper real order and to the order of simulation. This world wants to be childish in order to make us believe that the adults are elsewhere in the real world and you consider the fact that true childishness is everywhere and it is adults themselves who come here to act the child in order to foster allusions as to their real childishness. So I've no idea what he's saying. Yeah, well, the fuck man points of it right. So what are you what are you pick out that he's just read it? Disneyland is the idea that it's childishness. Yeah, and like, Oh, there are no adults here, but there are. I don't know how that's a Similat for though. Smith explains to Portu a lot, America is prostmonism incarnate, and Disneyland exists to divert the attention. In the same way that prisons tell citizens that they are free because they are not in prison, Disneyland tells citizens that rationality halts way outside its boundaries. Yeah, the idea is that disneylands meant to be the fantasy, so it's the break from real life. But he's saying Disneyland is real life and and the rest of America is a fantasy, which I sort of get. This is the thing where you define something by its opposite. Is, I think what he's saying is the only reason that people don't go crazy in the real world, that they don't just go this is all bullshit, is because we have this escape. The real doesn't exist without the escape to run away to. So we need a Simi laugher. Well, I don't know where the similarker comes as. It's not simulating the real world, it's just balancing it. But I guess. I guess what he's saying is the American dream as a fantasy. Yes, like blastingdom. Yeah, this is what practice saying, is that everyone in their day to day lives is playing out this story, to playing a rain that has a happy ending at the end. Yeah, yeah, so that makes sense. You're just not saying a very clearly. Not at all. I couldn't tell that was great riding as fair of right. That's terrible. Wonder World's fucking impossible. I feel better. So, as we discussed the end of part one of the podcast on which is brought the wizard of all was authour thank bomb, talked about buy an island and building a utopian host theme park on it, which obviously Disney did with the same parks, but along with the Disneyland and Disney World Theme Parks. Disney also attempted to establish the experimental prototype community of tomorrow project, or Epcot, which became the Tomorrowland attraction. And that terrible movie. I'm at Florida Disney world, which genuine is based on and turned into its surrounding township of celebration, which was established in the s. So this is Disney attempting to set up a Utopian commune to live by the morals that he is preaching in the Disney films. But it doesn't work. It does it because it's only an idealized version of it. It can't ever be are real? I have no yeah, but I guess I'm bringing this up to say that Disney didn't just see this as a fantasy. He was trying to build an idealize not just an idealized escape. He was trying to build an idealized township. I guess, like Jenny is, is Disney's idealized township actually and idealized township, or is it just Disney's idealized what's distinct? Idealized? Yeature, yeah, just rth. Sort of flip this. She wants to say that Disney land is the real world. I'm not sure do you have any thoughts about I guess that's the point. January is represented as real even though it's actually made up of all of these stories that we recognize, and then we sort of forget that their stories because they become real characters. So becomes a Similarka. Yeah, am I getting it? Yeah, I don't know. Absolutely no idea. Yeah, now works that, it doesn't it? Sorry, hang on, what we throw that again? In genuine it's made up of all of these different stories, but we kind of lose the original stories because of the relations, like the way Cratchit knits these stories together into something new that kind of replaces the thing, right, so they're like imitations of things. The simulations are fairy tales. Yeah, but then it becomes something new, so the old ones kind of get lost. Or okay, I think I'm following in. If we let's substract this away from pressures, because specifically, if we're just talking about revised fairy tales in general, HMM, they are a copy. Hmm, yeah, copy essentially. As really, if we go away from project like the groom's are writing here is we've copied out all the folklore. Here is the version of the stories an imitation of folk laws. MMM, but then everyone forgets about folk law and the grim stale becomes the original. Right, yeah, yeah, and then the same now with dis see. And now I rune thinks fairy tales about true loves first kiss, because that's what Disney's perpetuated. Yeah, and it has. Yes, Yeeah, yes, the lockers every okay, well,...

I went from not understanding a few hours ago to pay. See You why? I think gothic fiction is also in a locker now. Yeah, I get it now. Also, all her roll archetypes. Shit. There's one, sayingly tangentially related to which is abroad. However, he's one thousand nine hundred and ninety two SA elves with bastards, which we'll talk about a lot long when we get to wall some lady's. For of these reasons, project says. I'm writing this in Florida, home of fantasy. They've got some weird stuff here. For one thing, they've got Disney, MGM and Universal Studios, and this is what's weird about them. They aren't really studios, are they shoot some film here, but that's kind of secondary. They weren't built as studios. They were built as well as theme parks, those false frontages, those awful backlots, those false perspective streets. They were built for no other purpose than to look like something which in turn was built to look like something shit, built to look like something that isn't real. Here at America, and in England to a lesser extent, you can read newspaper articles and by alleged books which treat the characters played by TV stars as if they were real people. The world has gone strange. You can't tell the reality from the fantasy anymore. All right, Prat Shit, all right. So, yeah, really like any film that you know, if we watch like a lot of American films, are a lot of English films, and that becomes your understanding of England. That replaces the England. Yes, Oh ah, no, yeah. The other thing to apply to more reality is stuff like things like, I don't want to make it, but coming the governor of California. Yeah, because people think he is the guy from the movies. They an't understand like his personality and his Ruby characters are now just one thing and they think they've elected youtube sensations. I think a good example of that as well. Like it's so the line between reality and fiction on Youtube is so thin. Yeah, that's any kind of performance. This is why the witch's books are about the theater. HMM. Right, it's all pretend. But even then, like it's acknowledged that it's pretend. Interesting. But yeah, things, things like the cult of celebrity and yeah, things like the Kardashian's where people who are famous for being famous or whatever. It's that idea that there there is no original, they just celebrity. This might be so confusing because we're living in it. Like maybe if you're in the s you can play with these thought experiments more ejectively. So where this like these version? Oh Yeah, there was the crying of lot forty nine things by like we're just like, yeah, that's what that's fast. Shit happens now. I'm broken. God, I'll buy the singular. And nothing real anymore. I think was ever real else. That's the point. Oh No, yeah, cool. So, yeah, that's that's part two. Next episode, the final part, we can talk about mirrors. Were going to shit on psychoanalysis. Yeah, we talked about little ye, sorry, back any weather axes, bullshit, imperialism. We talk about Miss Goingal then, if you enjoyed us going off the depend about some markers. I've got a crazy theory about the power of Carnival and Pasta Fest as parody getting into it. Put a pin in it and we're clear. That's all for this episode of unseen academicals. There'll be another one along in a month, but if you can't wait until then, you can sign up to our patreon page and get all the episodes of full month in advance, along with any burnus episodes or specials that we end up doing. If you're after more of us. Alice host her own podcast of the Devil's Party, which traces the development of the Satanic Ero throughout romantic and Gothic literature. Links to a bibliography for today's show, along with a fully referenced and footnote of transcript, should be available in the episode description. Thanks for listening and stay tuned for some amusing out takes. Now if I can pull a Colombo again and say just one more thing about the princess in the frog. So the Crocodile Lewis, who wants to be the jazz musician in the princess right now. He recalls King Louis from the jungle book, Yep, who's portrayal has been criticized for being a stereotype of black jazz musicians, and he's named after Louis Armstrong, Yep, for they wanted to cast in the jungle book, but they don't want to cast a black president's an ape, so he was played by the white just saying out Louis Pretty instead somehow. Yeah, I'd never really know where I fall down on that one. Probably it's not great. He was from New Orleans. That's just a coincidence there. I am going somewhere with this. I promised in the princess and the frog go what was the trump? But playing crocodile isn't played by someone named Louis. Instead, he's played by the African American actor Michael Leon Woolli, who is the bitch on blind guy a Ya. So people are going to need context, with context on that. There was a terrible sitcom starting Rupole, at least last year. I didn't make the year before, called Aj and the Queen as about a road trip buddy series between Rupole, the drag queen and a small chop. But rupole's housemate here's this guy is Lewis, and he's blind. He's not a real at the act is not blind. He's blind in the shark and all he does is once an episode I will cut back to the to what Louis is doing in the apartment and he'll be doing something where he's blind and the punch lines always heels. Bitch, are blind. That's his catch plase, which has become a thing that me and my partner Maddy say all the time because I got glasses and whenever I'm looking for my glasses, I asked where we're,...

...where are my glasses? Because, Bitch, I'm blind, and I've tried to share this with Alice and now it's become a semi Walker because you'd say wrong. Elis is never seen. This shirt just says I'm blind, Bitch. I did is the wrong way around. Yeah, that's the problem. Yeah, Bitch, I'm blind, Louis, that is way too big. Oh Wow, that was an ablind bitch. Interestingly, there he's character the bitch on blind guy. His name is also Lewis. Oh yeah, he's all the way down. I don't use that a reference to princess in the frog, like. This is the guy who was Louis in that very nice just staring over that doesn't pick up on the bark is a link. Is Not our disay. Princess, I know, wasn't. She was not human. Well, so I think she would called Bart because they scored on the here we category. Yeah, there was attitude, but there's no autonomy. Attitude. Ariso songs, attire, outfit. It was another, a one which I can't remember. which I remember, sir, Oh, animal companions. Clearly folk one, just win working horness was out there. I still think just was pretty cool. But she doesn't. She can poll voll and she has a pet tiger. What more do you want? That tie is pretty good and she can poll. Let's not forget. But we're gonna DO NALA right now. I think now I gets real low because autonomy. She does nothing ever own a chord. She goes off to find some more. I think she's Sam. He goes off on her you reckon. Yeah, she's like a fuck you, scar, I gotta Find Simber Pot soot away, like do their decisions drive the plot? She has to go find some room ring back. Yeah, so I would give her like a two. Right, are you go? I'll go. I can't go higher than it because she does. She's one scene. She makes one decision. I go five because it's pretty important for the film. Out of it, it doesn't drop the plot. Of you got to get simber back to get scar out of the Fride Lens. There's so much more plot. Yeah, but simper coming back is very and then she has to convince him to come back as well, because he's like now, but could a Batata baby? No, but that's like saying because sleeping beauty was the lowest one. Right, twelve a possible thy because she's asleep for the whole movie. But that's like saying her to her going to sleep drove the plot. Therefore she gets fire for a time. I disagree, but okay, moving on it. So then, was the our attitude? Na, she I think she's a bit proper. Know, she's always like, Sim I'll stop, be proper actor, real or would you give that at five? Another? Five? Four, I don't shoo, I'll go as at three point five. Okay, well, I mean, I don't have the fuld you. I didn't. I wouldn't support Nolla and I'm now behind Rapunz or. I was behind her parts. Yeah, yeah, I know, but, like you said, you're acting collection like you would hang out with all you were playing now and knowledge. She's a fucking talking, tired a cow getting her perfect point. So far out of ten. I'm going out of ten because it out of five. So fine. Oh Shit, yeah, okay, so two point five and then two point five were on the side out of ten. Okay, okay, now we're back on the same and then she doesn't get a song, because now I'll get a song. I don't think now sings this song. She's part of songs. You should drubet's count, but she doesn't like does she ever sink? But I think maybe she's in a big one. Yeah, and in the new one she's at the end when they do the reprisee and a circle of life. Not Beyonce A. I'm pretty sure it is in the old one as well. I just can't remember. She I think she sings a little bit of I just can't wait to the king so like to I can shoot flat tooth edible companions. She is yes, Azusazos with no and she goes okay, for us, what are we rights? He's pretty cool. You like so I like that as okay. And then and then outfit. She's naked. She's a lion. So it's well, isn't particular fair, right, she's just a lot. I don't think you can give her a tire points. She's naked, Farszombie apocalypse capabilities. She's fucking lion, right, but I don't think that is a good she's gonna be fine. You recom lie in Big Zombie. Yeah, bobbies aren't feel pain faster for while they've running zombies of the day of the dead zombies. What I think is a lion goes to buy the Zombie gets infected. I think the line would just run away. That cats are like fuck this on out, but the big cats, the ambush credit. That's a big cats. They would run at the Zombie. Trump of rotten Zombie me dead. Do you get infected by eating a Zombie? Yeah, definitely, want a don know, but definitely isn't joshcase. No, I will find precedent, but like there's no way you don't get affected. Interesting because then they do a follow up podcast, which was Disney Villin deathmatch, and this really was like, yes, it's like fort who went? Who Wins? Right? Yes, now, that one't have a listen to, but I do know the end. I don't know who wins? I know who the finals side because if you Google it, it comes up with it tells you his. Our episode with it was decide between the two piles. Who are now before we reveal that, unless you've just looked out. No, Heaven Right. So, thinking of my head, I went straight away. You went up Jaffar. Yeah, he's a planet Juggling Genie, like, I don't think you can talk that. Yeah, you're right, Yep, I do. I was like, who's going to be? Fine, I thought maleficent and ash are like their magical pals, right, but then had, he's right,...

...he's yeah, all of the Underwell, I still think Jafar wins because had's is in paper. I was going to say probably hadies, but I thought they clearly your two most powerful thing. Now I don't know what Hati knows that, but the finalist Jaffa and scar. What I thought scar would be first out on account of being a lion, like he's just an old, Shitty Lion. Yeah, wells see just overwhelms them with the powers of camp. But even then had, he's got it. And so I don't know who wins that far. And guess don't I just figured there's tears. Right, you got like your men, like you Gastons, and every ye is your regular this. Then you've got which is yeah, it's like beleficent thing. Then you've got literal Gods, so Yafi and had. He's yeah, and then below all that is lying. Scott has a good song, though. He is one of the best villain songs. Right, if you don't, just who is the coolest? Film scars right up there. This was literally like who would win in a fight? Like, guess, don't beat scar, right, human, no, scar needs to be guest on just for me. I just need I need that to sleep at night. Guest on such a I want to see him more by less. Guess, don't have a sword. No, right, so maybe that stores dead. It's a Fist Bot. Go wins in a because he's Bothis Shit. Even then, I think gascons, as sounds out. What's guys get scars also punny people like look hot guy. Guess everyone who took security of pushing them off the cliff. He's the adissist. Every single scar fight begins with there's a there's a stampede. The other fair tale, but I needed to look up after punk. The only thing a flaccid penis absolutely cannot create.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (17)