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10A – Soul Music, Part 1: Magical Music

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Heavy Blog is Heavy Editor in Chief, Eden Kupermitz joins Josh to talk about 1994's Soul Music, focusing on the book's engagement with the literary tradition of "magical music" and how it is foundational to the fantasy genre (and perhaps even the universe itself!) through its depiction in the myths of Orpheus, Genesis, H. P. Lovecraft, J. R. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings and C. S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, among others, as well as music's unmediated connection with spirituality and memory.* 

Follow Eden and Josh's music writing at heavyblogisheavy.com 

Eden's other literature podcasts:

Death // Sentence

Anarchy SF  

*May also contain copious amounts of Whitesnake.

What's dear's world, it's deer's world podcast, and now it says yeah, so I'm Josh and we are your unseen academicals for today and we will be looking at ninety four soul music, the six discworld novel and the thirdly in the death sequence, where an ax is infected with the literal spirit of rock and roll, with which death's granddaughter, Susan, must do battle with, while death, amid a crisis of faith, goes on a quest to discover what it's all about. You know, when you really get down to it, and we are written, we're going to be using this book to explore ideas of music, memory, education, inheritance, Marxism and cultural materialism. But I think we're just going to stick with the music stuff today because, as per usual, this has got way out of hand and I think this might be the second book that I break up into into three different episodes. But today we are just focusing on the music things. But before we get into that, I should probably introduce our co host for today, Eden. Why you tell the listeners here you are. Hello, everyone has previously mentioned, my name is Eden. I am the editor in chief for heavy, blog. Is Heavy um which means that I'm a music journalist for the last eight years or so. I also do multiple other podcasts, like death sentence, which is a literary podcast focused on wheeld fiction and leftist teams. I also do anarchy a SEF, which is another podcast focused on literature and Um leftist teams, but mostly on science fiction and Um anarchist ideology. I'm from Israel, all the way in the Middle East. Also, I'm a huge Terry profet fan. I have recently cut down on my library, like a couple of years ago, but I used to have thirty five or thirty six of the discworld novels Um and I've read models of just the ones that I had physically. Can I choose my favorite one? Do you? Man? You talk about appractices as much as you want. Uh. So, I have two favorites, and the small Gods and fief of time, which I also my favorite, says, as I mentioned on the first episode. Yeah, they're just brilliant books I like. I think Pratchett is at his best when he's doing two things. One, building out the mythology of this world and the fantastical elements of it, and to being wheeled and like non traditional soul music. Is Not one of the wheeled books, but it's I think it's a good book. But small gods, I think, is one of the weirdest Pratchett books and fief of time is one of his most just conceptually very interesting and intriguing. But I've yet to read like a Terry Pratchett Book that I've disliked. Right that was gonna be my follow up question is, what are your least favorite? It's very practiced because there's a fear that I really don't care for. It's a it's a problem with me because I like them all, even like the first one, which people seem to not like. I think the second one is actually modest life, but I love them. Gods Gods is supposed to be this like hallmark of Terry Pratchett's career, but I think it's just an okay book. It's not terrible, but it's not one of the greatest ones. And people keep bringing up it's like, you know, start heel or something, and I just disagree. Sure there are are. There's so many books. I'm sure there was like some that I've read and didn't leave a mouth on me. But now that that is true. Even a bad Pratchett is usually better than like a bad other book. Um, I think, yeah, that the two real exceptions from the discworld series for me are are stuff that's my least favorite. I do not care for stuff for reasons that we'll get to in about four years when I get through the watch sequence. But relevant here. My least favorite discord novel before that one came out, because that's a later one, was moving pictures, which I bring up because it is very similar to soul music, yes, in concept, if perhaps not execution. Yes, the connection is that I too write for heavy. Blog is heavy. So that is how I know Eden, although this is the first time we've ever actually spoke or looked at each other. So Nice to meet you. So yeah, you can. You can read our music writing there. You also have an academic background of some sorts. Yes, yes, I have a B A in history and philosophy the farm university. Well, in I focused mostly on early model Europe, my history part of things, Um, and in the philosophy I focused mostly on postmodernism, literally critique, and also Christian philosophy. That that was just one of my interests that I expanded on doing my my degree and I haven't really stopped reading and doing my own like slow and limited research. Um, and mostly in early modern Europe, relevant to disco, by the way. I tried to read upon and will stand Um, the use of urban space. Um, so cities, the politics control over space and time and stuff like that. Pratchett fits in perfectly into those Um. And then you've given talks on those at conventions and things that are on Youtube. And Yeah, so mostly when I talk about stuff I get invited to talk about science fiction and fantasy. I've spoken at the Republican conference, which is a big digital cultural conference in Berlin. I've spoken there a few times about all sorts of stuff, but also the radical potential of science fiction and digital loneliness and stuff like that. Also, I talked about metal, by the way, and and the metals filsion of climate change and the time, the post...

...apocalyptic aesthetic. I've spoken about data visualization and a few conferences and the relationship with science fiction. I gave my favorite talk that I ever gave is about data visualization in Staltic, like how the maps and childs and stuff like that kind of like interact with the show's politics. Right. Um, I have a four thousand word draft analyzing GROZIERA's engagement with the climate, politics and climate apocalypse and everything. That I intended to be a first and like a whole series of going through, like to cattle decapitation and everything. But I wrote the Grogera on and then they announced the new album, so I was like, damn it, I have to wait, and then I didn't come back to it. So that's been sitting there for a year. So at some point there will be a deep dive series on on Climate Change, politics and and metal and, as some shame more self promotions. I also have recently published an article on Star Trek Um in the most recent issue of the Science Fiction Studies Journal, which is all about food futures. It's a special issue. Yes, there is a article in by me on as a synthetic food and animalytics and things. Sir, if you like projecting like Star Trek and and I have bounties for you. All Right, why don't we talk about soul music then? Yes, there, before we do that, I need to nerve now. Are you ready to rock? Yes, I am so. Normally in honor of the repholes, drag right to recap podcast I asked my guest occur heist, to please name two things that you liked about the book and one thing you did know. I'll start from the one thing I did not like. Okay, just to get the bad stuff out of the way, I think my opinion is also show the cost the Pratchett fandom. But I think Susan storyline is not good. There's a problem right, because I know what Susan becomes and she becomes a fantastic actor and a very funny one, but here she's like really blacks focus and she spends basically the entire book just being chased by events. Basically she has very little agency. Like stuff happens to her. She's kind of led by the nose all constantly. I get it as a as a literary device. She's not the narrator, but she's like the observer of the storyline, but it's just not interesting because she lacks agency and and like an actual personality. She's just like a cardboard cut out for Patrick to move the plot along and have an observer. Though, in contrast and the stuff that I do like, I think that death's storyline is probably one of the funniest things that Tarry Patcher has ever written, of course his career. Like I think the scene in the clatchy and Foreign Legion is perhaps the funniest two pages that Tarry Pratcher has ever written. The soldier not remembering what he's doing there and what's what's he called and his rank and all that stuff. And in contrast, like deaths, you know, dry, completely lacking metaphor, in Ilandy kind of understanding of the world is just hilarious. Incredible stuff in general, all of like death's stops and like intellrogations and in his journey to reconcile the death of both and his his daughter. What's her name Isabel, Isabel. It's just incredible, just in incredible storyline and one of my favorite things from the book as well. Um, the second one is, Um, the librarian, keyboldest lines. Librarian, the Labran, is one of my favorite characters in Projects Universe and Um, I think the scene where he's playing the university organ for the first time and the way that Pratchett like describes the machine and the resulting noise and the entire scene after that with rich Kley and the dean, and it's just prime, prime wizards right by the way, while small gods and a fief of time, of my favorite rince wind, is my favorite discorld character. I Adore rince wind and I think the last continent is incredibly underrated. Might be funny as in Australian, I don't know. I Adore that book and I think it's criminally underrated. So whenever there's not rince wind, I'm like the instant should have been there. It would have been better. So it's a prime wizards storyline, except for there's no incuent Um the rince wind. The wizard books are probably my least favorite of the you know, subsequences, which I think is a fairly common opinion. But the last continent was my least favorite of those for a long time and then, yeah, in preparation for this I went back through the whole series within the last year or so and it is now by far my favorite of the the wizard sequence. Just my copinions completely flipped on it. It's the most inventive of them all. Like it's, yeah, very inventive and very funny, and I know that people really dislike Jance went but I adore him. No, I don't dislike him, it's just that those books overall, I think, are a bit weaker. Yes, sir, I guess. Now coming back to the things I liked and disliked about soul music, that actually relate very closely to the things you listed because, Um, well, I have one thing I like and through things that I disliked, which is not to say I disliked this book a Roale, just there were, you know, things that jumped out specifically that I could name. Um, so I will start with the one thing that I liked, because the one thing I've liked that I've written down here is the clutch and Foreign Legion scene. Yeah, I agree. I think it's the funniest passage of Pratchett. and Um, we're gonna talk a lot about like the quality of of things being in audio. Yeah, I'm listening to...

...these audiobooks and the reading of that by WHO's that? Nigel Planer, is the ones I listened to. So Neil from the young ones. Him reading that and the timing on that whole scene I think makes it even better. One of the things I don't like is sort of the humor is a bit weak. Otherwise, the references to music, there's no real substance to them or comment. It's just like hey, here's this band or here's here's this song, and it's like laughter by recognition rather than there being a jerk there. So in the middle of that to have this amazing clutching Foreign Legion scene. It stands out quite a lot, I think, and I agree that the death story is very strong, although I do justlike that he sort of reuses the going to the bar from more. That happens twice in more where death goes to the bar, then more goes to the bar and now death's going back to the bar. It's sort of a scene. He can't get away from his death getting drunk. I guess the things I dislike are much much the same because, yeah, I've I've got the weak musical references, but just the humor in general. Like I can't stand music with rocks in as a phrase. He couldn't come up with anything better than that, or even just call get rock music. I don't know music with rocks and they repeated over and over again like it's a hard get it and it's not saying anything, it's just rearranging rather the rock music. It's music with rocks. I don't know. So that and and sort of the running thing about him looking elvish and things like that. I don't think they're as funny as a Pratchett seems to think. There they are. But that is not to say I do not like this book, as we'll get into without discussion of its critical reception. On the all the previous episodes I've been using Um Um, Andrew and Butler's pocket guide to Prachet's works. Are you familiar with this book at all? Yes, so he gives out of five star ratings for all the books, and so music he gives a two out of five. That's a bit harsh, I think so. Um, though, I do agree with this assessment, saying that the book is rather straining too much for the PUN or illusion. Yeah, I was going to mention the puns. The puns are like really bad the thing. Yeah, the holly and cliff and all that stuff. It's like you need to warn the gamut that that the skill of puns is like. Either you make them so on the nose that it's very clear that you're like winking at the audience right all, you make them really subtle and you force people to solve these literary puzzles that become their own joy. But this kind of like falls in the middle. Yeah, except for body Hollie. It's not like clear enough what you're going forward to to be like a slapstick thing, but it's not not subtle in any way for us to enjoy. Like I'm traveling it. Maybe it was before Google. Well, it's not before Pratchett and his fans are using Google or search changes, like he is on the Internet talking to people at this point. Yeah, for sure, but like today it's so trivial, right, like you could just find out all the references and they're not like interesting or clever in anyway. You know, I agree. I actually I think they the body Holly Jerk is very clever, but then loses all its meaning when he then explains it. But, as you're saying, maybe that was necessary. N I don't think the two out of five is fair. I would give it a three. Yeah, well, three out of five ain't bad. Yeah, I think three, three out of five is is pretty fair, and I think that's where a lot of people would write it. I've had, yeah, a bit of a mixed experience with it, because I really acted when I first read it and then I didn't like it and then I read it again I did like it. It's been sort of up and down and and sort of it's connection to music and stuff seems to suggest that it should be one that I connect to, but I don't because of that sort of surface level engagement with it. Upon rereading and doing the research on on Morton Reperman, though, I actually think I might prefer this book to both of those and I understand why they are more revered. But if, as I've discussed on in the previous episodes, if more is revered for its tight plotting, but it's thematics a bit then, and then ripermand is sort of the opposite, where the story doesn't really make sense and the parts don't line up, but it's doing this big metaphysical engagement that that's really thematically engaging. I think here it maybe doesn't go as far in either direction as those two books alone, but is a better amalgamation of the two. The plot makes sense and moves along. It's not all over the place like in Reperman and I think despite the surface level engagement with rock music itself, the other themes, the Marxism stuff, that we're not gonna have time to get into today. I think there's a lot going on there and plus deaths, you know, whole soul searching thing. I think project really manages to Meld the two together. So my hypothesis, going into hog father and then take of time, is that perhaps the death books get better as they go. I mean I prefer repleman to this, but not because I think it's a better book, but just because I would love like I said, I like when he adds to the mythology and wrestles with the big picture stuff. So I would prefer for him to shoot high and miss, like in the rippleman might make this grandiose thing which, I agree with you, doesn't really coalesce into like here and storyline all that much, but has like the death of the universe sit and all the different kinds of deaths and the struggle for the very fabric of the school Dean Universe than a small story at the end of the day, which takes place almost exclusively inside of Ankh morpole. Also doesn't have a lot of impact on the recurring cast of characters, except for Susan. But a SUBPA storyline like we don't get more information, you know, uh, not be and Cole an appeal, though, but then the story is not moved along. The wizards have like very minimal growth, by the way. Another underrated character the dean. I like his role in this book cause I...

...like the Dean and I like what he the rebellious, kind of like teenager thing that the dean goes through on this book is, I think, really funny. But it doesn't like I could take. I could take, Um, soul music. I could like a fief of time. When I'd go back and make it not existent. We wouldn't lose any critical information on the discord universe, except for Susan. It wouldn't affect the timeline, so to speak. So I I like my Bratchett books, you know, like to have ramifications on the setting and how it works and magic and stuff like that. So, Um, that's why I like people man a bit better. But yeah, you know, in the sense that fief of time is superior to all of them. So it does. It does get better as we go along. Can I push back against that a bit? Yeah, for sure. So on two parts, I think there's maybe more going on in soul music than it appears like. We do have a cosmic threat, in that the music is foundational to the universe and is threatening to destroy the world. Theoretically, so if, after that metaphysical threat, it is there, even though it takes place it down more park. But reprimand takes part on a farm that no one cares about and Colin not be on in it at all. And apart from the introduction of the death of rats, I think you could have raised the entire story of reprimand and not have the cosmology of discord change. That could be the case. I mean there's less continuity, is what I'm trying to say. Like music. Maybe you can make the point a moving pictures is like kind of like soul music, threat reincarnated somehow, but it doesn't. Death of rats that is introduced in the repel man stays with us for the rest of the series. Right. The music thing just disappears. IMP disappeals, glad disappears. All these characters never make a recurrence. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's not linked to the rest of the series as much as the other death books are. You could say the same thing about most, by the way, and that's why I think most is also not as good as repperman because it's kind of self contained. It doesn't echo for the other books. The characters don't come back again, except for the ones that will already dell, like the wizards and so on, and Susan. But, as we said, Susan is a bit less of a place to hang on too because the storyline is kind of weak. Not to continue the repel man soul music and a place where sold music is completely superior. Is the cover out. I think ripper man is like a bit before Josh Koby really like got his out down. The cover is bad. Of ripper man. It's like death. Looks like like a doll, almost like some sort of action figure. Is like proportions are all messed up. It's it's really bad and Um. In contrast, so music's cover out looks like it came out of like a two thousand a d like a judge read novel or like a heavy metal magazine. It looks really good and, as the kids on twitter say, it understood the assignment right, like it's very, very lucky roll right. It's a fantastic cover. Josh Koby is brilliant, but his earlier stuff is a bit, I think, questionable. I'm going to have to disagree again. I think I much prefer the cover out of rape man. Yeah, it's hilarious. I think you riper man embodies the the spirit of the book and I like the tree with all the I've just got Tom here. I'm looking at the yeah, our glasses, so music, I think in yeah, you're saying the model, like the characters, maybe look a bit better, but it understood the assignment. But it is just the bad out of hell cover with with death. And my main problem with it is Susan is not on it and she's not on any of the covers. I think she's in the background of thief of time. She's on the back cover in the background. But yes, it's very strange that she is the protagonist. I mean she's a bit of a side character here, but hog father and thief of time she's central and she does not appear on any of them. I have not noticed that. That's yeah, I have, because I go through and I picked bits of the artwork to put us the episode things and I can't get a picture of Susan's yeah, and you've got the band with rocks in on the back there. So I think the original pressing of the book was just the white background with death on the motorcycle and then he added the rest of it in. So I don't know, I actually think the artworks a bit lacking. Perhaps another reason why I have a bit of a soft spot for soul music. Theory is this was actually my first encounter with Pratchett, though not through the book. Thief of time was actually the first full book I read. Someone just gave it to me for Christmas and I read it completely out of sequence. Not that you have to read them in order, but I think thief of time is sort of as you're saying. It's following on from a lot of other stuff that's already happened. So a bit of a weird entry point, but I really liked it and it's one of my favorite ones that has held up on on revisit. But I'm readden through this book going is this girl with this white stripe and her hair and the scythe and she's death granddaughter. And there's a thing and I was like wait, there was a cartoon that used to be on TV. It was very small, but there was death's granddaughter who, yeah, went back in time and and things and I remembered his head being buried in the sand and of course I discovered that that was in fact the animated adaptation of soul music which, as as we discussed on the witches episodes, is the second of two animated discord adaptations, along with weird sisters, that were produced in by the UK production company Cosgrave Hall, who had previously done an animated adaptation of Pratchett's truckers. Apparently, I think I said in the in the witches episodes that weird sisters was the first of his works to be adapted, but apparently there was a trucker's cartoon and Cors Grave Hall were best known before that for producing the children's cartoons danger mouse and count Ducula,...

...which is notable for its theme song explicitly identifying him as a vegetarian vampire, which is an ongoing thing I've been looking for in these books, saying that he is a he's a vampire, but he it's Broccoli. So more on that when I get around to doing the the Bernus Vegetarian Vampire episode with Sophie. But I think this is it looks bad. I actually think this is a fairly good adaptation, but I think we're going to agree again because you you mentioned that you had unfortunately seen this prop before as well. There's so much potential. I mean, like it has Christopher Lean as deaf. I would have given like a limb to see an actually good adaptation with Christopher Lee as death. You know you need his like, you know, sonorous voice to get the capitals across, like the capital letals. It's it's a good cast and I think there's all the potential here. But the animation is bad, like the animation itself is so clunky and so just bad. It is ugly. But I did, I did rewatch it going into this and yeah, it's not great, but I think it does a good job of here is the story of soul music, which might just be by comparison. Have you seen the one of weird sisters? Oh, I have not. It is unwatchable. And what you were talking about the cast, because here, in addition to Christopher Lee's death, you also have Neil Morrissey, best known as Tony, remember having badly Um, and later probably more famous as the voice of Bob the builder, but he got his start being more in the song music adaptatition. Oh and I've written there's a guy named Graham Crowden who played rid color. Now I don't know who Graham Crowden is, but looking him up he was apparently played doctor smiles in the film with Michael Morecock's first Jerry Cornelius novel, the Final Program from nineteen seventy three, and none of those words mean anything to me, but I thought they might mean something to you, which is why I put it in there. I'm a huge Michael Morecock Fan, but I had not seen that adaptation, nor even knew that it existed before I sided in your notes. He was also a doctor who apparently he had a few appearances. I am not familiar with this guy, but yeah, that whoever they've got playing the the witches in the weird sisters one like they do their crookey voices at it. It is hard to listen to. Um, it looks even worse and the story is incomprehensible. So by Comparis of the soul music, one is knocking it out of the park. And I think they were made at the same time. So I don't know if they were just like two different teams and one understood it better, or perhaps soul music is a bit more adaptable and it's this more straightforward story. I'm not really sure. I think you've hit the nail on the head. They're like soul music story, with all the criticism that I had of it. It's very well put together, like the beats are very much they fall into place and they kind of chase each other and they work really well as almost like a story bold right, so I could see. Maybe that's the reason that it's been one since I had world systels, so I don't remember how jump bold it is, but it sounds like a less slightforward book. And and it was bad enough actually to condemn the soul music adaptation to the vault, I guess, because the weird sisters adaptation was apparently broadcast first in too terrible reviews and poor viewership, which meant they then shelved soul music adaptation entirely until about a year later when they are broadcasted on the UK's Channel Four in at the prestigious time of two thirty in the morning. So they were really trying to bury the sole music adaptation despite, I think, being obviously superior. But it got down here in Australia somehow and was honored about four thirty in the afternoon, after I got home from school or whatever. So it got through to me and has obviously had a profound impact on my life. So yeah, let's get into our academic examination of the book itself, and today we are we are focusing on the theme of Magical Music, which there is a two thousand three article called fantasy music, epic soundtracks, magical instruments and musical metaphysics, by Isabella Van alpren which sounds a bit elfish if you ask me, which charts how fantastic music is described in literature, film and Computer Game soundtracks and assesses the role that music plays in fantasy, noting that the notion of music as a magical force appears in folklore and stories going back at least as far as Greek mythology and the myth of orpheus. So yeah, for people who are unaware of the ophous is the original musician and poet in Greek mythology. He's represented as a musician, but he is tied in with with literature and particularly poetry, because, as Adrian Sablowski and l of the theme of Music in soul music on the basis of the society, of the of the spectacle that, as you can say, will have inspired by my Marxist track that I'm going to get onto. He points out that modern literature itself has its origins in epic poetry and our our traditions, which is to sort of say that literature is music, or was music. Right, it comes out of the oral tradition and becomes poetry. I mean that the basic stories, you put it to a rhyme and a meter so that you can remember it when you want to go tell these tales. But yeah, the the modern Western literary tradition traces back to homer and hesiod and all of that, which, yeah, these are meted poems that would have been sung to an extent, right, they have a rhythm to them rather than just just playing prose writing. So the idea of music and literature itself is tied up within this western Greek tradition. Yeah, I think those those still awful, especially in the SCI fi and fantasy terms, where you can still kind of see that, Um, the two main examples that I always think about is also a Gwinn and Rogers a Lesnie that have like a real musical nous to the lighting also that uses ethics structures in all sentences all...

...the time, even when she's writing pose. But Leslie has this thing with with rhythm, especially on all of the dead. If you read it, it has this like Staccato, kind of like rhythmic sense to his pose, which is very interesting. And Lesnie also extensively wrote poetry and about poetry. So it's it's not like a surprise that that's the way that he wrote, but that's maybe you can see the stitches in between the two other to formula and also someone who does interesting things with music and pose instead of the fantasy uh circles is Georgia, mountain writing, game of phones. There's a lot of music, a lot of songs that kind of speak to the what you've mentioned, that the role of music and poetry is to carry knowledge Um. So one of the main examples, in most famous ones, is the reigns of castle meal, which is a poem dictated or written to commemorate a historical event within the setting of Song of Mysophile, like the destruction of the lessler houses by the lanisters, and he uses that poem many times to convey the evilness of the bad faction right, the evil faction, although the aunt villains suppositively Inza file, but the Lanistell's are the closest you might get to them. So it's interesting. Jorge Armand I've read some of the science fiction books, but I haven't read any of the song of ice and fire stuff. But Um, like like token has songs, right half of the Lord of the rings his songs. So there's definitely a tradition there within modern fantasy. And the only other thing I think of at the moment is that I need to read more as a Lesnie. That is becoming very apparent to me. He's someone that I've read a lot of light and, I think, a couple of these others, but I'm really not that familiar with him and it's becoming increasingly obvious that I need to be one of my favorite authors, and he also, by the way, he likes a lot of his characters kind of like Echo the obvious myth. In contrast, by the way, Ratchett's I think, is not musical at all. It's like he has no little to like poetic vibe to his writing, on on on the contract like that. Actually is famous for his very not dry, but like very simple straightforward. He tells you things right. His metaphors lie in what he's describing and not in his writing. It doesn't use any like fancy literary devices and stuff like that. And I think if I've read all of Bratchett but I haven't read soul music, would Ratchett do a good job talking about music, I'd probably say no from his other writing. But then you read soul music and he's very good at talking about music. Like it's very good at relaying what it feels like to listen to a song, why a song works well, the sensation right of music. It does a fantastic job of it, the vibrations and the emotional roller coast that it takes you on and stuff like that. The whole obvious story has several main themes that are usually called out. Of course. The main one and the most famous one is how love can help us right, because the story goes that he goes into the underworld to rescue his wife, in my favorite version, and she's bitten by a snake that was sent by another God. But that's debated in all sorts of like versions of the story. And he's he's told too that he can take her but he's not allowed to look back. He would look back and again gaze upon the knowledge of the Gods. That's the idea, like if he looks at the mystery, then she will be taken from but he looks back and if you read the story in the naive film, it's like he's a child, he's a mature he wants to know and so on. But the reading that I perfil is that he just loves her so much that his gaze is torn to her, like he gravitates towards her and that's why he looks back and loses her inside. His love causes him to lose her. It's a very tragic, very poignant, solar story and I think Bratchett, in soul music, does a good job of interposing like the obvious metaphor onto imp and musicians in general. Like one of the main themes of this book is musicians dying, I'd like in in car crashes and plain accidents. I mean famously, the day the music died, right the plane crash that killed several prominent positions, and the idea that you burn out right like you love music so much, you love the fame, you love the crowd, but it burns you out, it eats from the inside, it possesses you. It's a deal with the devil, which I think is interesting in the context of the obvious man. Right, IMP as obvious work, but also kind of doesn't it's because he's in love with like the intangible music another way, I'd sort of looked at projecting the obvious month onto song. Music is like Susan's attraction to him. Right, she's just drawn to him for no real reason, which is maybe an excuse for why their relationship is certainly developed. But yeah, there's something going on there, because I think this interpretation of the whether it's scolding officers or vetegrating his love or whatever, depends on which version of the obvious myth you read. So, despite the appeals to homer and Hesiod as this sort of origin of the magical literary, musical literary tradition, obvious is not mentioned in any of homer or histiod's work that I could find. But one of the earliest versions of the myth that's usually referenced comes in Plato's symposium, from around three five to seventy B C, wherein that phaedris explains the myths saying that love, who was the first of the gods created after the earth, inspires shame at dishonorable actions and pride and honorable behavior, without which it is not possible either for a state or for an individual to do any noble or great work. And I bring this up because this is the idea of the other that I sort of I did a whole Thing About Sartre...

...and existentialism is a humanism in relation to reprimand, the idea of responsibility. You are you are prompted into it by the existence, or even potential existence, of others. So there's a connection there with the metaphysical tract of the death series. Part of the obvious myth is obvious is responsibility to Ridise, or Euridicy Iosa Erdis, because I learned from reading. But euridicy and, and this is the idea, that it says in in Padris, that only those in love are prepared to die for one another, since certainly a man in love who deserted his post or threw away his arms would mind less being seen by the whole world than by his beloved, and that sooner than this he would choose to die a thousand deaths I point that passage out because this is sort of the opposite of Susan. Right. She's drawn to buddy, she loves him, or we understand that she loves him, because that's how books work with male and female protagonists. But she lets him die. She tries to resist it, but she sure sees it as necessary. And then the whole the idea of the book is it's about not looking back. Right. Her and death are stunted because I cannot let go of of more than Isabel's death. So yeah, I maybe want to go into some of the stuff with Susan and grief at some point, but I think there's something here in a connection of needing to let the dead go rather than chasing after them. Yeah, for sure. I think it's interesting that you bring up later like that. The whole idea of well, the classic Platonic Love Right, which is commonly misquoted and misunderstood, is interesting, Um, if we look at the republic as well, and the idea of love or passion is basically the fuel that makes the rest of the machine go right, like you can have justice and you can have courage and wisdom and all that stuff, but what makes you go is your love of the state or of other individuals, Um and so on. And of course in the symposium and in other places it can become cooptive, I. They can become too strong, or you can love bad subjects. The whole discussion that right, like your t falls paradox right to the God's love. What is right, or is what is right loved by the Gods? It's not an accident that it's about love, because the question that's actually being asked is, can we love bad subjects right, like? Can there be bad subjects of love, Um and and Plato says yes, of course you can't love bad subjects. And that goes back to what you said about deaf and Susan. The love is of something that it's not that they should not love it anymore, but the love is excessive of the dead people right, of of those that have gone past. And the same thing with imp he loves music, but it is hinted that he loves it too much. If you think about the beginning of the book, he's obsessed with this theoretically pure music. That's what he loves, this perfect music, and then, glood and cliff, they show him like actual existing music, right like music as it is actually played. And I think it's hinted that the way the demon gets in right is through IMP's desire for perfect sound, for the perfect music. His love is twisted, it's excessive Um and at the end he let's go right, like you said, he doesn't look back, he let's go, he embraces essentially he thinks he's going to die, but literally, like physically, but also as far as he's concerned. He's going to die and he accepts it. And then of course he becomes like he works at an efficient chip site and quom it's kind of like hinted. It's the end. It becomes a mundane person. But that's better. It's better to love like the correct mundane things than to be obsessed with some sort of like abslack figure, just like deaf and Susan need to let go of Malt and Isabella that. But of course this, this is complicated and it's not one or the other things in literature. In real life there's the the other Um thing that's sort of running through is that this passion and this love for music is what makes buddy and the bands with rock, sinnes music so much better than the soulos music of with supporting acts, that they end up becoming nering, that they they don't they don't have the love. That's the tragedy. I'd like. You need the love to motivate you, to keep you going, to make you into a good citizen, if you're talking about Platos of public to make you into a good person. But there's also a danger in it of temptation, of access, which is exactly the obvious man. That's exactly the cructs of the obvious man. If it was useless, it would have been easy to discard it. But because it isn't useless, you needed to give yourself motivation and passion, using to live. That's WLL the tragedy dealies Um that it's so angels at the same time. Yes, and this connects to the last passage from Pedris that I will quote, or the symposium, but Pedris is the person saying it. He compares US unfavory, unfavorably to another character called Alcestis, who gives her life for her husband and therefore his returned to her, right because she was willing to die for love, whereas he says, opous was only a liar player. Right that's another connection between buddy and orpheus. But he was only a liar player and did not dare actually die for the sake of love, and that's why the Gods showed him only a phantom of the wife he had come to recover, because they thought he lacked spirit. Yes, so that's the the idea that you need the love right, otherwise that the gods or the muses or whoever aren't going to inspire you. So the love is a necessary but dangerous part of true art, I guess, in the platonic sense, but that that is the the Greek or the Greek versions of of Plato. Interestingly, um I went to brewer's dictionary of phrase and fable, because that's where Pratchett says he goes to get all his mythological information in the first instance, and doesn't mention any of these ancient Greek interpretations, even though it it is...

...a Greek myth, but instead describes obvious as having the ability to move even inanimate things by his music, which is also a power it attributes to the north God odin. But he does mention it has the power to charm Hades, which I thought was interesting. Again, in connecting to death. Right there is. I think there is some logic too. We've just done these metaphysical books in Riperman and more and then suddenly we're doing music. But because of the authorist myth there is a connection to the underworld and and then notion of death itself. So I thought that was interesting. But the only like actual extract from any obvious myth that is given in Brewis dictionary phrasing. Fable is actually an extract of John Milton's version of the myth from his poem lascidious. I don't know which. I bring up because the previous host was a milton scholar, so there was a milton theme running through, so I want to point that out. But also no one cares about this poem. I don't know why. This is the go to poem that was being quoted there. So I don't know, but if Pratchett went looking for a source for his obvious myth brous phrase and fabled, that is what he would have been met with. But of course there are many versions of the Osvious myth in modern literature as well, which I just want to take a moment to camp out and talk about some of these. If if you don't have anything to add. One last thing actually. You mentioned this idea of, like love, making something real and so on. The idea of illusion and the lie of art is something that runs through Plato's work and also for obvious Smith like this idea of what's real, what's fake, and what part does art taking it? Like famously socrates hated poetry because it was a fake, outright like creating things that don't mile anything in actual existence and create these inherently inferial versions of reality. And I think the book actually soul music explodes it in an interesting way. At its end. Will death basically holds music hostage. I'd like he uses the guitar, plays an empty note and then, in order to be restarted, they make a deal with music, right, like IMP will restart it if it promises to Um let him go. So it's kind of like a deal with the level, but in the re reverse the devil is music itself instead of the devil of using music. And as this idea of death being the ultimate reality, the ultimate posic reality, will all illusion ends, where all illusions are destroyed and cut out in in favor of dying, which is the final truth, and music as being some sort of illusion of life, of vitality, of movement, of vibration, of rhythm and I think in abvious this case as well, the idea of again him playing music and charming hades and and silvers as well, like the Guardians of Death, with this fragment of life. Right, he brings life into the dead place with his music, because music is sort of like a simile or even a cynic dog for life. It's like life in miniature Um, and I really like how Pratchett explores that in the fact that death like appears and the empty note, the notion of an empty note, is so interesting as well, like a call that is not a called music, that is not music, and death is the cessation of music and necessation of life. So that that was another like line of thought that I had. Yeah, there's there's definitely a fastly attract to it Um as well. Yeah, which I guess is start up in in the obvious things. I feel like there's a few weird contradictory things about the way that project is thinking about music in this book and it has a bit to do, well, a lot to do, I think, with the agency of both the listener and the person creating the music, because on one hand there's a lack of agency in many of his characters and how they deal with music. Like himself is possessed by the guitar, right, like the guitar makes its own music a few times, although it requires in some sort of conduit perhaps, but also the people during the shows. They go into a trance, either like hypnotized or possessed or mesmerized in some way by the music. So there's a loss of agency. That right. But on the other hand, when he describes how the music affects people, especially the librarian and the Dean and characters like that, it makes them want to make music. Right, so it's like not exactly taking away their agency, is just taking over the agency right, like it's making them feel good about reproducing music and they do enjoy it. Like if you think about the scene with the Librarian and the organ, it ends with him being flown across and Mopo lay by the explosion when rich clar files a cost bow at it, and then it describes him as smiling and joyous in the wreckage. So he enjoyed it. It wasn't that he was possessing, he was made to do something that he didn't like. And and the same thing goes for the people, like I said, that listen to the music, right, like the fans. Are they fans or are they being forced to listen to the music? Do they like what they're listening to? Do they appreciate it? That's the whole scene in the beginning where they play what's that Dingjibal called the mended drum, right, Um, and the people like fow access at them and shoot them with stuff. That doesn't happen again. Right, on one hand, on the other, those like a possessive quality to it. Right. So, while obvious is mentioned here, I think a more interesting Greek mythology analogy would be the siren song, right, and like listening to to the sirens sing and being drawn into the scene, which the question there is also, is it bad to give into the song? On one hand, yes, because you die right, like you drown, but on the other if you read into the homelic descriptions of it and other depictions of the sirens, it's a blissful death, right, like you die in the...

...like angelic cause. So there's like there's like a line here between wanting the thing being possessed by the thing, being hypnotized, by being led by it, and so on. Well, now I am very much regretting not sending you my three thousand words of scattered notes about Marxism and the capitalist culture industry and the spectacle at all of that, because yes, in this will be the second part episode, which you are welcome to come back for if if you like. But in their donor, I think it is here, comes up with the idea of the the culture industry, which is this idea of what you're saying, is that there's music and art as a force that inspires people but then gets corrupted and used to suppress them. But he specifically describes that in terms of the sirens and and the siren songs. So I've got a whole bunch of stuff about that to work through. I think like I understand why the obvious comparison is more appealing, because it's a hero story, like it's one of the Classic Heroes Journeys. By the way, if you want to analyze soul music in that lens of the Hero's journey, it is quite lacking, like it doesn't have all the parts that it's the main thing that it lacks in the context of opheous is what's called the Kata buses, which is the going under. The hero usually goes underground or under something. Well, the metamorphosis of the crux of the story, right. The drama when it it is when the conflict is expelled the the result is kind of like an alchemy. Right, the hero is met, is metamorphosized by that conflict and it's a resolution. But it usually happens under downe like with obvious right, ophous goes into the underworld into tattles and they're his transformation occurs. Here there's no such thing and I could rewrite soul music and include like a dingy underground basement show, right, and do a Kata buses. So I think it's kind of a missed opportunity. If Pratchett was going for the obvious kind of thing, is the mental drum, not the dingy bra that they go to. But it's not a basement. If it's a basement, then done. I take back everything I just said. It is on the cover of the color of magic, but on that cover to fire also has four eyes. He literally has four eyes. I'm saying that that covers should not be treated as an accurate representation. Just I'm pretty sure that's the mended drum on there. It could be, I see what you're saying, that the going down the stills. So that's an interesting point actually. Yeah, if the mended drum does include a descent then and that's exactly what imps transformed into body for the first time. Yeah, then maybe the obvious metaphor or allegory is a relevant one because it's exactly the catabasis. You go into the dog place and all the transformation occurs. So That's interesting, even if you want to extract it from like literal interpretations. Right, we obviously have underground as a term in music. Of there's the mainstream and then the underground, and the idea is that they're they're not allowed to legally play music on the streets, so they go into the underground, the underworld of this CD bar to play with. So I think metaphorically it follows and I think I think it's meant to parallel the story of the Beatles, right, that they couldn't get any gigs so they went to Germany and played and then came back. So I think metaphorically it's it's engaging with that ideas. So while we were speaking I was reading up on the mentor drum, and you are a hundred percent correct. You descend downstairs to get into the ball. There we go. So that you have it. It is a kind of busts which is interesting. Thanks for following that up. But it's interesting for you saying that, yeah, the Hero's journey isn't really present in this book, because that's one of the things that we focused on in the analysis of more saying that he really sticks to the Hero's journey in that book. The other two episodes that I want to do about some music. Yes, one about the Marxist analysis and the cultural materials analysis of what's going on, but also one that focuses on Susan. So I haven't done it yet, but I am wondering how much of her story is follows the hero's journey in ways it does like like binkie is a classic call to adventure, like like a magical animal appeals and it kind of coaxes you into the magical rabbit hole, so to speak, that you're going to fall untop. But here binky appeals and is the call to adventure and beginning Susan refuses it and she's like logic and all that stuff, and education. Terry Bratchett's like Pink Floyd is showing the like education is a is a bad noun as a bad thing. But then that's the problem with with the story. Like she kind of freezes. Well, she freezes there until the very end. Well, she accepts, you know, the magical reality of existence and and so on, and then she returns. She returns to well, she started and everything is different but the same, and she's the only one who remembers and so on. But maybe that's the problem with the story like that just doesn't progress through the steps that we expected to progress. Well, yeah, as I said, I haven't actually gone into the research on on this stuff yet, but as you point out, she goes back to the point where she's done. There's a whole discussion about how time hasn't really moved while she's been away, which is a whole thing about fantasy time and the hero's journey. That has to have happened outside of real time. So That's interesting to me. And what you're saying about Susan, like she starts the hero's journey and then sort of freezes hypothesis I've had that I haven't tested. Yes, like is this meant to be a subversion of more and that he tried to change the future and everything and was said on saving this guy where Susan sort of thing is she does accept that, but...

...he needs to die and doesn't want to happen but understands that she has to do that for things to progress. So I'm something I'm going to examine extremely closely, and that at too much length in a future episode. Is is how this interacts with the idea of more serious journey, but a good teaser for what's to come. There are other versions of the the obvious myth in fantasy, so I wanted to talk about some notable ones, beginning with Neil Gaiman sandman series. Right, obviously Pratchett and Gayman had a close relationship, so I thought it was interesting that offhous ends up playing a major role in the Sandman series. His version follows Virgil's version in his agricultural power of Georgigs. Yeah, from Twenty Nine B C, where an obvious is motivated by a bitter rage rather than love about you to see being abducted and chased into the tall grass where she's bitten by a snake. So we have that sort of satanic genesis interpretation leaking in here. Virgil rights heart sick and sore, fierce consolation on his layer which is made out of a hollow Tortoise Shell, upon which he's saying a sorry song of his wife, which I thought was interesting given the connection to turtles from disc world. But I don't think I'm just being nastic here because, as we're going to get into soon, there is a connection between m right, is a musical concept, and almost the turtle in in small Gods. So I'm just throwing that out there to keep in mind for later, but it is it is interesting to me that in the version in George ends with the passage. It tells the whole story of office and then the teller of the story says such was the song that I took onto sing. So in that case it is literally saying this story I'm telling you is music. Yeah, I mean the comparison is very interesting. I think in general I love Neil Gaiman Sandman. I think one of the most interesting things in the book is the relationship between dream and death right and in general, his separation of the concept into two characters, because it's hinted throughout the comics that dream and death are very close, though not the same person, but they share a lot in common and all the cliches of, you know, dream and sleep being kind of like death, like a little death that you practice every day in preparation for the big sleep. Almost the whole line with opheous and like diamond's interpretation, really puts an emphasis on on, like I said, the tragedy and the sadness of the story, right, and like the sense of loss. It kind of ties in with a sense of loss of dream himself. Right. There's a bowl by his son and all that stuff, and afterwards, like obvious, is kind of like, you know, he's falling into misery and like wallowing in his own dispel and in the end he's I really like the where he's torn asunder. I think he's left as a head because his deal with death and the time that he's spent in Hades keeps him, keeps him fallen. Well, there's not an episode about Sandman, right, but that's that's a recurring theme in Neil Guymon Sandman, which kind of actually links in with soul music in very interesting ways. The idea that if you keep looking backwards, if you keep being obsessed with what happened, your life will freeze in place. Like you have to move on in order for things to keep going. That's what that's what that you'm just I'm here, I'm doing the same thing, I'm like and that's the same man. That's what the sament it's about, right, okay, yeah, that's what dream does at the end. Dream at the end it's like I keep trying to control these things, I keep trying to make everything work, I keep trying to make everything makes sense, but at the end I need to let go. I need to let go when I need to move on so that things will be better. And that's exactly what happens in soul music, right. That's exactly the same thing. So I'm trying to like figure out the timeline here. Like obvious appeals in Sandman number twenty nine. He appears in the burnus one first and the song of obvious, so it's a non numbered one, probably around the same time. I'm trying to figure out when this was written, because this was written before soul music, I think. Anyway, the main the main story of it happens in like that's when Gaiman publishes it, which is interesting. Um, it's also interesting because the way death lets go is by releasing office into death, right. That's that's the actual incident that enacts. So yeah, a lot of cross every there, which is just like a lot of times. I I I like to accuse game and of being a second rate knockoff of Harry Pressutt, except in this case where he preceded him. But I also just realized they were friends who were interested in the same things, that they both had ideas about office, and it's more to do with they're both dealing with the same source material, rather than game and ripped him off or whatever. But it does seem like there's a lot of instances, especially with relation to the same man, which again is just because it's dealing with mythology. But they both looking interest in something and then went away and wrote a story about it. By the way, just a side notes. Reading Good Omens for the first time and seeing that it's the same death, because his writing is capitalized. It's basically discorlds death is one of my earliest memories of like literary joy, just like the idea that Preschett was like this character is bigger than my books. Um, so if I'm writing about death in this collaboration, it's the same death. Was the first time that like it really opened my mind to like the possibilities of Cossover, and literally Cossover it was. It was very enjoyable. I'm not sure if it's the same death in that it's the same kind of death, because his other deaths, like in raprimand also talking capitals, like as we are or whatever, but I think he uses the...

...capitals in one of his prediscord books as well. Yeah, but just the idea that that he maintains that literally style, because the style, yes, same, the same frame of reference, the same kind of character. It was the first time as a kid, right. Well, I saw one book bleeding into another. If we're talking about the game and Pratchett collaborations, then I think, and there of course just a good story. Well, that the next book I'm going to do after thief of time is going to be good omens because right it has the what they called the four horsemen ride the motorcycles, which is what happens in Thay of time. Except thing of time was written ten years after. So if we have an instance where Pratchett is a shameless invitation of game and again. So just some other notable versions of officers that I wanted to mention. There's the book ten of of its metamorphoses, which is sort of the go to one. Most people go to of it, but I read that there wasn't really anything relevant. There is also the anonymous narrative poems, so off here, which I talked about on the Lords and ladies episodes for its relation to elves there. But that's all so interesting to me in that it's commonly read these days in the form of a four tolkien translation. Yep, I have it collected with Tolkien's Um translation of the gay night. Yeah, that's where it was published, but I think yeah, here the translation itself comes between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. So foundational to modern fantasy. This, this version of the obvious story, and it was also, as I mentioned on previous episode, it was the first text I ever taught in university, so foundational to my academic criticism as well. Yeah, Um, yes, and and two other more modern versions of the obvious tale that I thought might be particularly interest to you and me is Samuel a Delaney's Einstein intersection from nineteen sixty seven. Fantastic book. Also one of the Weirdest Delaney books, and that's saying something because Delaney was extremely weird. But Einstein in section is bizarre. I think it's one of my favorite delayees. It was my favorite delaying until I reread sands in my pocket or stars in my pocket. Yes, stars in my pocket, like grades of sand, which might be the best science fiction book. I don't know. It's very good, but yes, so that. And it's it's one of the more readable ones. Like it's weird, but it's not. It's not dlgrin right, he can. You can read Astane intersection and has a story that ends. And the other one I thought deserves a shout out, although I'm not sure about is on a list of adaptations of oorpheous. One of them mentioned Jeff Vandom, is veniss underground, which I know you're a fan of. Fantastic book in a hundred percent an opheous retailing myth again goes into the underworld, also does like Jonah stuff. Jonah is another, by the way, comparison when you talk about opheous, because he's also like he goes under and so on. At the bottom of Venisson, of the underground, the Venissannagond, there's a fish. The fish eats the main character. So there's the whole like Jonah kind of thing going on, though I don't know if I picked up on the the obvious stuff when I read. I think I interpreted it more as a as a Dante thing, with the like going through the circles and getting deeper and deeper and deeper. It's it's all. I mean, that's vandal wills kind of thing. I like Vadomi really likes to play with that stuff. So, but he is chasing his lost sister into the today underground and he when he finds her, she's transformed in all sorts of way ways by her stay though. Um, so that there is a whole orphian theme to it. Yeah, I need I don't remember it very well and I need to reread it because now that I'm done with the Stephen King things, I want to go back and plug my bandam holes, which sounded weird, but I like. The next thing on my list is the what's the now, I've got to say, or Virginis or whatever series am progress. That's the one. It is very good and very weird and it also has a cup of Bass and, by the way, yeah, well, that's so. That is the next on my list, but I didn't quite get to it before this. So yes, if you're interested in other fantasy versions of aorpheus, there are some recommendations. But we're music guys. We like death metal. Death metal like mythology and images, which is why I was shocked when I searched through my library of like tens of thousands of songs and albums, I could not find any reference to office in a song title in my entire Music Library. The only song I can find with opious in the title of note is the often lander, Israeli how a metal, progressive metal band. They have a song called like oorpheus from the album unsung profits and dead Messiahs, featuring Hanse Kirsh from blind guardian, who I did interview once and just wanted to tell me about how he started reading the UM. What's the one that's just the big long, boring in cell rip off of Earths? Name of the wind? Yeah, yeah, Um. There is the the symphony x album underworld, which is apparently a concept album about orpheous, but it doesn't have a song title with his name in it, along with the new ever gray album, a heartless portrait, the Orphian Testament, which I reviewed on the episode of the Review Podcast that I put in the feed so people can go and listen to that, and and Melbourne band, melodic death metal band, orphous Omega, who have support slots at all the shows I want to go to and it drives me nuts because I don't think they're a very good life band. But those are the only references I could find, which I was shocked this isn't more of a thing. Yeah, but but you do have some stuff on here which is mostly power metal, and I think I know why. Obvious is what's called an as poetic walk. It's work of literature on Writing Little Sture,...

...or work of poetry on writing poetry, or work of music, on writing music, and power metal loves that ship, like singing about balds and musicians and the music itself and so on. So I think that's why maybe the Orphean myth is more appealing to bands of that style. Maybe. I don't know. I was expecting some kind of death metal band to have mentioned it. Another lost Bild kind of ideas, more power metal than it is death metal, but just sending into the underworld and getting ripped apart by the furies, like. Yeah, it does seem like it would be more appealing, not just the story points but also, as I said, like the metaphor of the like damn the musician or whatever. But apparently it's not that appealing. Alright, well then, let's look at another aspect of magical music in some music. So we talked about it as artistic inspiration and I want to talk about it as on the metaphysical sense of being originally to the entire universe. And this is where I think that that big picture thing you were talking about in Uberman creeps in. Yeah, so, yeah, the idea of music, because a fundamental component of the universe, is a new and, along with some of the religious ideas that I'll get into a second the idea of magical music had previously been depicted in Arthur C Clark's seven short story, the ultimate melody, wherein a scientist searches for the original platonic melody from which all music derives, and also Thomas M dishes y nine novel on wings of Song, where in the inhabitants of an alien planet are able to float on the waves of their own singing voice. I think they were two that were mentioned in the Van Al for an article I was talking about, but I also took note of them because Clark and dish too like specific influences on Pratchett. He talks a lot in his nonfiction collection about how he met these people and they were like his idols when he was first going to cons and thinking about becoming a writer. So it's interesting that they both had add song stories about magical music in there. I would also add an McCaffrey's dragon writers of pern and Crystal Singer series, which prattect parodies in the color of magic. Like I think the dragons there are controlled by different magical instruments. That that is my least favorite science fiction fantasy series of all time. I think I do not get along with McCaffrey at all. I've never had it. So it's awful and like shockingly misogynists that everyone kept telling me, wait till you get to the White Dragon. That's the one, the White Dragon. I read the White Dragon and it's like literally a lady justifying why she deserved to be raped for like three pages, like Oh, you know that the same person was a aunt who gave me a thief of time. The next year gave me a copy of it was like an omnibus version of the three crystal singer books, and I that did not have the same impression on me. That side on my shelf for about twenty years and every few years I'd go and try and read it and give up and eventually it got donated to to an op shop. So yeah, I don't get along with McCaffrey, but a big deal in one which has is parodied in the first discworld book. And there's also the rock and roll Song Mate Tom John in Alan Dean foster spell singer series from nineteen eighty three, who we speculated might have been the inspiration for Tom John in weird sisters on that episode. So just just a few precursor magical music books that I thought might have had an influence on Pratchett. There there's another book I think it's interesting to mention here because it was published one year after Um soul music, which is Gareth Nixus Sabille. Right, I believe it's Goth Nicks rather than Gareth. Oh, I know it's God because I'm looking at the books on my shelf and I have garth written on them. Really, really, really, really really good Y, a fantasy novel, one of my favorites. Well, in magic is performed well, NCOMANCY is performed via bells Um and the music of the bells and it's ovations and and and rhythm binding forces. Either can bind souls and so on. So I think it's interesting they will released close to each other and both have music at the base of its magical kind of idea. Yeah, they're very interesting. I didn't realize they were that close because Sabrill is, it's kind of and Lorel as well. I kind of like Susan characters. Right. Um, they have they're very similar, which might just be working from the same archetepe as also where. We mentioned this the other the other day, because there is a a person cool pers rock album, quote a Boson, which is the the band of quote a bosom, which is the name of the necromancer in this series. So we do have a I have a musical representation of this semi Obscure Young Adult necromancer series, but I have about as many references to that as I do the office is very strange and one thing I wanted to mention, to skip a bit in your document, I saw that you were going to mention music is like in an ordering sort of force, like in ptagoas and the idea of the music of this fields. We can talk about that now. Yeah, so I wanted to mention that because nix uses it like that. Right, like music is this fundamental, kind of like almost mathematical concept that all those reality and if you know how to play the correct notes, you tap into some of the realities underlying infrastructure, which I think is a very interesting concept coin from one, but it's not. Doesn't play a big part in soul music. Right, like this idea of music being well, it is a primal false ight, but it's not all the old false it's more chaotic. Yeah, I think it's it's foundational rather than like they they're manipulated at all to change thing. It just like it is ever present, like did. The idea comes from, as I said, from potagoas idea of the connection between music and math. I...

...mean harmony is just math, right, like the scale is just math, is just numbers and the ratios and stuff like that, which makes music like this very interesting entry point to the idea that the universe is older than is, playing along some sort of predetermined plan or predetermined set of rules, and when we play music we kind of tap into that underlying infrastructure. This is like magical music is. It is a theme through a lot of the influences for project. But he goes a step further than a lot of them, though, inserting that his music also has an originary power. So the passage from soul music reads one, two, three, four. And the universe came into being a matter, exploded into being, apparently as chaos, but in fact as a chord, the ultimate power chord, everything altogether, streaming out in one huge rush that contained within itself, like reverse fossils, everything that was going to be and zigzagging through the expanding cloud, alive. That first wildlive music in the beginning was the world right. Um that I mean the world is a sound. At the end of the day, it's not so far from music, and if you look at, I think, non Judaeo Christian mythologies, you find music playing a part in a lot of them. I'm laying up the token reference light like the music of Luvatal and the idea that reality comes to being out of the void form a symphony Um and a choir. By the way, if you go also into the Judaeo Christian tradition, the angels are a Quair, the choir of angels, they say, a song venerating God and that that song is an inherent part of of reality. Also in other traditions, like Hindu traditions and stuff like that. Well, Song and worship are closely tied together, this idea that music is somehow pimal. Well, you've laid up the Tofer the token references, which I'll get to be you've also laid up the connecting to other traditions, because this original power chord um in in hinder mythology is is noted as UM, which some people might recognize not just as one of the worst soulfly records, are also the name of the God in Terry Pratchett right his God is literally the sound that started the world. So there's a melding of like arm in small Gods is representative of the Abraham my God, but is named after this Hindu idea of creation. So yeah, in in Hindu and Buddhist traditions, um is the primordial sound that creates the universe. And I'll probably talk more about this when I do get to so God's but it might also be a reference, as the l space comment is explained, to the idea of the Christian God being omniscient and omnipresent and so right, it's all encompassing. Um. So, yeah, procut is kind of collapsing those ideas together. I have like fifteen minutes, all, twenty minutes left. So all right. Well, there is way more to go. So what do you want to talk about? Token right, yeah, Tolkien, it's not about we mentioned the creation of of Reality Fu Song, I mean famously. That's how the similarly in starts, by the way, one of the best passages that talking about those filty odd pages about VAT kind of conducting the choir and Malk calls evil influence on it. I do have the the passage there about the creation of the world through music. Did you? I want to read it. Okay, here we go. Then the voices of the Ainul, like onto helps and loops and pipes and trumpets and viols and organs, liked on, two countless choirs singing with worlds, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatal to a great music and the sound rose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights and the places of the dwelling of illovatal will filled to overflowing and the music and the echo of the music went out into the void and it was not a void. But then he does a few interesting things. I feel this idea that he specifically says that they held the music so they know kind of what's about to happen, but there's also like hints and notes and Light Motifs and subtleties that you can't really listen to it once and so some stuff are still unknown to the valor, even though the symphony basically tells the story of Alda. The history of alda is re ordained inside of Levatal's symphony and the symphony that the valarciate with him, but there are so many subtleties and and complexities to the music that they don't know everything, which I think is a really interesting point. It kind of talks to the music is an unmediated medium, or the least mediated medium that there is. Right when you look at a painting, it is highly mediated through your understanding of the painting, the text that the museum writes about it, the preconceptions that you have about shapes and color and stuff like that, or something about music that skips through the entire top part of your brain, so to speak, and speaks to the stem, right, like the lizzle brain, the stomach, and so music talks about that as well, right, like how primal and physical it is. And it's like that in talking as well, both in the creation myth and then afterwards when he talks about music as a source of memory and sadness and stuff like that. Kind of like bypasses your conscious mind and speaks to the visceral, primal parts of you, which is very interesting. I relate to it from a personal level and it's also interesting on a metaphysical level. And partchet does it in Sol music as well. I'd like music as the spontaneous thing that takes over you, which I find very interesting. Yes, I think I had more about that later in relation to the they point Piper and things, but I...

...think it does person soul music. I like music leading you by the nose. Is there like a pie pipe character in Tolkien's work? Something is like tickling the tip of my tongue, but I'm not sure that it's like Aboud leading people into the TAT. I'm not really sure. But there is of course the Pratchett Amazing Maurice Book, which is apparently of the pipe pipe which the amazing morisk gets mentioned as a pie pipe character in riperman. So he obviously had that on the brain as he was going into writing the next death series book. So that that is interesting there. I had I had a comparison between token and love craft. We want to finish on that? Yeah, sure, so, yes, Daniel for an also recognized as Pratchett's soul music. There's an interesting analogy to tolken's music of the ENNEA, as described as a primal originary force in the silmarillion which you've just talked about. There was a passage in the Venil for an article that I have deleted so I won't be able to specify, but they were saying that within this musical creation was implied that evil was already part of the world by the corruption of Milko and I'm not sure where it says like this is the creation and it's pure, and then it says like Melkor, who is the evil spirit in in talking sort of corrupts the music rather than being contained within the music. And this was the entire first episode of this podcast. We did the book UN saying academicals and talked about how ORCS are. Like it's the problem of evil, right, talking is frequently trying to to solve this problem of evil, that God controls everything, but he's good. So therefore, how to ORCs exist? Well, ORCS are corruptions. But how can you corrupt things? We did a whole episode about this. But my reading of the SILMA brillion was that it was the same sort of deal, that the world was good and then milk or corrupted, rather than good and evil being part of the song. I but what's interesting is why Melcoll does it and Melcoll doesn't. Because he's pathetic. Right, doesn't because he's like envious and jealous and insecure. He's a child basic. So like what talking is trying to tell us is that evil results from small minded people getting in the way of mighty works and of beauty and so on, which is a very non pratchett thing to say. I think like Pratchett has a lot of empathy for the downtown and miserable the sad and so on. They figure on a lot of his books. I'm thinking of in soul music. You have cut me on though. Diblo, one of the most pathetic characters to a will exist in anything. But at the end Pratchett vindicates him right at the end of this squald, not at the end of soul music. Um, he has like his own story and his own ademption Alkans on. So it's a very non pratchett thing to say, like you people who are jealous of others, you're the problem, like like your evil, which is like, I mean Pratchett and talking a very different right. But I think Patchett is most different in the way that he has empathy. But all of his characters were as talking is very mean to a lot of his a lot of his characters. Well, another difference between Pratchett and and token is that token is very religious and Pratchett is very secular. Yes, and I think we say that in the shift to lovecraft, who is another notable influence on Pratchett, who's parodied in the mean part of the color of magic, but also describes music as an originary force in his nineteen twenty seven story, the dream quest about Narn ktas were. In the protagonist, Randolph Carter, observes trembling in waves that golden wisp of Nebula made wearily visible, there rose a timid hind of far off melody droning in Faint Chords that our own universe of stars knows not. It was a song, but not the song of any voice. Night and the spheres sang it and it was old when space and Neil at tap and the other gods were born. That is interesting to me. I think I've misinterpreted here. What I was going to say was that this says it is part of the same origin as now at tap, who's the evil spirit in lovecraft and the outer gods. This is before that, which is the same thing. Tolkien saying that there is the the sound and the correct corruption. But I think the difference is and I wish I had the passage from the similar alien and I'll go find it. Netted it in. But the idea that Malcor is able to corrupt the good song right, whereas a tap is irrelevant to the song. The song just is. This is that secular shift that we see both in society but fantasy fiction itself. Right, and I think Pratchett is playing in the playground of Tolkien with hype annecy characters, but his cosmology is it's much closer to lovecraft. Another reference point to talking and to lovecraft is hope, mirrorlesses, blood in the midst, which is a fairytale, English fairy tale story from the nineteen twenties. I just did an episode about it on death sentence. That's going live on Monday. Very interesting book. Neil guyman liked it. Neil Gayman called it the most unjustly forgotten novel of the Twentieth Century. It is a very interesting book, very weird, has all sorts of class elements, by the way to it. She was also an interesting character. She was friends with Virginia Wolf and Gilt Wood Stein and other like literary figures from the time and perhaps a lesbian in a time where it was very unpopular right and very found upon. She spent her entire life with a woman, living together and working together on so on. But inlood in the midst, which is our best book, I feel the main character is haunted by the note capital end that is played to him by an evil fairy at the beginning of the book when he's a child and the note haunts him through his entire life because he's afraid of of hearing it. And time becomes...

...when he lets go and understands that the note, the scolding as it might be, is also part of nature's music and also fits into the grandel theme of things. So again, this theme of scoldens harmony Um and how it relates to accepting life or being evil and shunning life and trying to change it to your own desire. And that ties into the at the point I think I was trying to get to about the the shift from talking to lovecraft, is that part of the message of soul music is, like we talked about, the letting go thing, that is the idea that that there just is death in the world. There there is no answer, there is no responsibility to it. That the song of death, if I want to be Wanka, is part of the fabric of the universe. Sir, I think that might be a good point to leave it. We've brought it all together and I'll go off and record myself doing the rest of it. Thank you very much for your time and come here. Thank you. Thanks, just whydier than estay is nianna sister of the fiantiary. She dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief and mourns for every wound that artis has suffered in the marring of milk corps. So great was her sorrow as the music unfolded that her song turned into lamentation long before its end and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the world before it began. So that is the passage that I had edited out of my notes that I was talking about. At the end. They're with Eden and while it doesn't shure milk or affecting the world of art or, it's instead Um Nianna, whose sorrow at his corruption of the song is woven into the song itself. But the point is it says at the end that her song turned to lamentation long before its end and the sound of warning was woven into the themes of the world long before it again. So all of this creation miss stuff and the similar alien is happening and gets woven into the fabric the song of the universe, whereas yet the comparison to lovecraft is that the song just is and then later these gods, which lovecrafts gods, aren't necessarily spiritual gods. They're just big, incomprehensible aliens. But yeah, they are separate from the songs. This sort of relates back to what we were talking about with reprimand. Whether project's death is part of the universe or is outside of it, whether he is metaphysical or, I was going to say physical but magical, determined by the belief and things tokens. Gods are outside of the world and have influence on its creation, whereas lovecrafts gods are inside the world and are created by it. Um there's a reversal and cause and effect there and therefore the evil that they represent, and even evil might be too strong a world when talking about lovecraft, but the bad vibes they're putting out aren't actually anything to do with the world itself. They are just results of these creatures within it, whereas in token mal cause evil is so strong and takes place while the song of the world is being sung that it is actually woven into the fabric of the world. So somewhat of the answer of evil in token is that evil is woven into the world. It was a corruption of the song, but it is foundational to the fabric of our world, at our level of existence. Conversely, in soul music, what we end up with is a third option where music itself seems to be inherently again evil might be too strong a word, but nefarious and chaotic, as Eden said right. It's not positive or wholesome even, but corrupted as it is in token. It's not completely neutral and indifferent, as it is in lovecraft. It's we have a song of the universe that itself is corruptive. Right. I don't know if calling it chaotic evil is going too far, but if we're looking at an alignment chart, tolken's music is lawful good that has been influenced by chaotic evil. I guess lovecraft's music is true neutral and projects music is chaotic neutral. Also kind of glad that Eden had to finish off, and then now I'm coming back. I'm recording this about a week after a session with Eden, which has given me time since to go away. I said I was going to start reading some vandom mere stuff, but instead I've decided to plug another one of my fantasy holes, which is a pretty big one. I've started reading the chronicles of Narnia in preparation for the hog father episodes right. I know there's the reference to Santa Claus giving the heroes of a sword in the lion, the witch and the wardrobe. I'm not sure how much that relates to hog father. I guess I'll find out when I reread it and start putting the together. But yeah, just an excuse to go and read the chronicles of Narnia, which I've read the first two or two and a half books a couple of times and I really don't like it. I really don't like the Lion, the witch and the water very much at all, so I've never persevered. But now this is an excuse to go back and actually finish off the series. So I've started reading those. And when I say I've read the first two books, I'm referring to the lion, the witch and the wardrobe and it's Prequel, the magician's nephew from nineteen fifty five, which was published in between the last two chronological books of the series, and this was actually the first chronicles of Narnia Book that I read. It was given to me by the same aunt who gave me the time and the crystal singer books. I don't think she was a as he reader herself. She just knew I liked books...

...and would buy me a book on my birthday and Christmas every year. So there were the two books I got a year for a long time while I was growing up. But yeah, the magician's nephew, for people who haven't read it, is a prequel that sort of parallels genesis, telling the creation myth of Narnia, but it is also a lot more more science fictional, right. It sort of has to do with these like quantum pools that they travel through different worlds in. Their magicians are more science like, I guess, and has a bit more of that, yeah, parallel world hopping that I'm sure pratchett would be into, or probably was into. I really liked the turn of that one and then when I got to the Lion, the witch and the water, which is a lot more childish and has Santa Claus showing up and given the hero as a sword, I was pretty disappointed, especially after how much that book had been talked up. But the point is I have since gone back and reread the magician's nephew, which I'm happy to say holds up, but also, you know, yeah, details, the creation of an ear and the way that works is that as land, the Lion God, sings Narnia into creation and there are whole chapters about how his looking around singing his song and the landscapes are forging and things, and there's a lot of interesting animals and talking animal stuff, which I guess is all through Narnia as well. So that was interesting to me. Be another example, extremely significant, foundational and influential example on the fantasy tradition of music as this originary creative force. Though again like in talking, we have the God figure in as land who exists outside of the world and prior to the song and I guess mirrors talking in having a holy, good song that is then corrupted by the evil forces of the white witch, although in the magician's nephew she is just not a human, because that has specific value in in Narnia, but some kind of humanoid creature from a parallel dimension that the human characters then, through the quantum jumping, bring into Narnia. So we actually have an instance there where she doesn't corrupt the song but she sort of plays the satanic figure who corrupts the people and the animals perhaps in the world of Narnia, but she is like a secular figure right. She is not only a subject of the song and in the physical world rather than the metaphysical world of none, but is from a completely different universe. So whether is a God who exists for all these universes, or is he is just the God of none ear? And then maybe there is just God God above him, sort of like Asriel in reaping man. I'm not sure. Maybe that's explained in the rest of the series. But we actually have a secular force in the white witch, and it's weird to call her secular given that she's a magician from another realm. But a secular force in the white witch who was able then able to corrupt, if not aslant song, then its subjects. So interesting variations on the theme of originary music there through some pretty significant fantasy stories. So that is to finish up on originary music. We actually got through more of what I had planned for this episode with Eden than that I thought, but we've got a couple of sections left on music's connection to memory and spirituality, so I will get into those now. Yeah, we've established a long tradition of USIC as an originary and elusive property among many of the foundational writers of modern and fantasy and science fiction. But what does this magical music sound like? And the short answer is that no one knows, except that it's like nothing else. As van Alfred notes, the actual sound of music made by magical instruments seems as difficult to produce as it is impossible to describe, remaining mystified and sounding simply like nothing you've ever heard before. And she golls sold music, one of the most convincing descriptions of magical music in fantasy literature, since project does not attempt to describe the music made by IMPs Magic Guitar, but limits himself to the effects it has, giving only an indication of its genre, which seems to be remarkably oriented in nineteen sixties round world rock and roll. She also likens its effects to those expressed by the fifteenth century Italian philosopher and Cilio Ficino, I think, is how I'm going to pronounce that, who described the fantasmic mechanism by which music affects the mind of the listener, which he called the Spiritus fantasticus, contending that music was nothing less than a soul coming into being through sound. So there's a sort of what Eden was talking about, how Uzick is perhaps less mediated than other forms and requires less reference points to understand. It's sort of hitting you more emotionally, although, of course, you know, through movements like abstract art, you could argue that, although that often relies on media. But also there is a lot of music criticism, at least popular music criticism, and and marketing. Will get into more and in the next episode when I get into the market of stuff. But yes, there is this idea of music as a pure force that is a lot more instinctual and emotionally resonant than other art forms. In her book Gothic Music, the sounds of the Unkenny van Elfron categorizes these effects as one of four dimensions of music and Gothic Literature, which he calls liturgical music, after the chant of funerary music and Liturgy of religious music. For the record, there is also an advant guarde experimental black metal band Um called liturgy, that sort of seek to create this effect through extreme music. They have a lot of pretentious secondary material essays and statements of intense and exergyess and things that goes along with their music, which I guess may...

...he puts the lie to, or at least challenges, this idea of music being intrinsic and UNMEDIATED, in that this artist that is explicitly trying to tap into that has the most, relies the most on secondary and material to get the message across. But, as van Alpron observes, music or a strange sound often sets the trans aggressions of Gothic literature emotion. Whether or not the listener wants to, they get dragged along into the musical movement from the Mundane to the divine or the occult and also being considered able to have a ghosts, drive away demons or exercise vampires. I haven't come across music being used to banish vampires in the I think, sixty books and almost a hundred and thirty films that I've I've watched in a surveying so far for all these tropes, I don't think I've come across music being used to banish them, although there is a terrible two thousand nine films suck about a vampire rock band which ends with the head vampire being impaled with an electric guitar. Some of that actually, I tell a lie. I don't know. It's it's not an effective use. But there is the Dennis Miller Vehicle Bordello of blood, about a vampire brothel. That has the guy who plays the vampire and Frit night playing a sort of televangelist priest who is trying to fight Satan through the power of rock and roll. This movie is more entertaining and better executed than it sounds Um and I find his character particularly entertaining. I can't really remember the specific details of that movie, but I'm pretty sure his rock against Satan powers are shown to be false and ineffective. So we have a false example of that, but not an effective one that I can think of. Be a Vanalfren also argues that music is intrinsically tied up with time and memory. She notes, along with Melody and harmony, music is defined by the two entwined forces of tempo and rhythm and is experienced in time, as opposed to visual art like paintings and things, where they don't have this temporal to mention that they just are and you look at them and that's it. Essentially, you encounter them. In an instance, though I think maybe she's giving music to uch critic given that films which are an audio visual medium, are also experienced through time and also not a comedy, to which the key is often said to be timing, you know, whether through a stand up spoken form or even in the written form. Right even was talking about how Pratchett's writing isn't necessarily musical, and I agree with him. But there is still timing to it. He's still using the words to set the pace of his jokes, as seen in the clutchy and linking scene that we were both so fond of. And although words, like paintings, are static, they don't move. You are interacting with a book through time, right. It takes you time to read it and the words set a pace to it, which again ties into how writing is poetry perhaps. And another temporal device that Pratchett uses in his writing in a particularly comedic capacity, and one of his trademarks of his writing, is his use of footnotes, which specifically interrupt the action, they break up the time and interject and he's able to use that to deploy jokes in certain times or set expectations for the reader. Yeah, through temporal manipulation as well as the content itself. So either vanyl friends may be giving music too much of a privileged physician, or we're just here seeing the connection between music, literature and also comedy. But Nil from writes that through its temporal experience, music forms strong associative trails of memory, affect and identification, arguing that all these assessments of musical magic are driven by Magic's close relationship with memory, affect and imagination, which is another theme of soul music. Talking about memory here and Vanyl Frind says that the simple act of saying this music reminds me of signifies the recognition that listening to music in many ways is an act of fantasizing. Now I think she's maybe over selling this again, because you can say the same over painting. This painting reminds me of or or this film reminds me of or this stand up comedy set reminds me of. Read. There's I don't think music has a monopoly on memory and and association. I think maybe it feels more magical, I guess, or implicit because of that UNMEDIATED, more emotional thing that it is tapping into, and I often associate music with particular memories and things like that. So perhaps it is more so inclined just because of its yeah, almost subconscious associations. But I don't think this is an exclusive to music. Sort of phenomenal. But while the theme of Music is not explicitly intertwined in the text of soul music itself, the inspiration for the memory theme in soul music does seem to be explicitly musical, right, because death problem with grieving for Morton Isabelle is that. But the problem there is he can't forget, he can't let it go. Rather, there's the saying that time heals or wounds, and that is not true for death because, as he says, he remembers everything. And this is a quote of a Meatloaf Song, right. And and the influence of meat loaf is made explicit through the cover art that is just a parody of the bad out of hell cover. Um, so on the second bat out of hell album, bad out of hell to back into hell from three. So a year before soul music comes out, there was a song or or an...

Internet track called wasted youth, which is spoken by meatloaf's collaborator, Songwriter Jim Stiman, that begins by saying I remember everything and goes on to describe the protagonists being corrupted and possessed by this guitar. I remember everything. I remember every little thing as if it happened only yesterday. I was barely seventeen and I once killed the boy with a fender guitar. I don't remember if it was a telecaster or a stratocaster, but I do remember that it had a heart of chrome and a voice like a Horny angeline. It required the perfect combination of the right power chords and the precise angle from which to strike. The Guitar bled for about a week afterward, but it rung out beautifully and I was able to play notes that I had never you can yes, so pretty explicit influence on came out in nineteen three, so probably even at practice's piece of writing made probably a bit too close to the publication of soul music to be a direct influence. or it would be, except that the monologue was also recorded by stimon on his solo album bad for good, where it was called love, death and an American Guitar Um, and then was re recorded for the meatlow filum with the additional sound effects and things Um. And, according to the annotated project file on soul music, project has confirmed that deaths, quote and I would then extrapolate perhaps the plot and major themes of soul music were based off Stimon's version of the monologue, which again sort of seems unlikely that you know, someone would know this monologue from an obscure Jim Simon album rather than the multi platinum selling meatloaf album that came out around the time he was writing this. But, as recorded in his essay, straight to the heart via the groin, where he talks about having heart surgery. When the opera ad asked if you wanted to have any music being played during the operation, he specifically asked for him to put on some Jim Steiman rather than meat loaf, although the operator only had a copy of that out of hell, so they put that on instead. So yeah, I don't have too much to say about the idea of memory itself, other than throwing out those speculations and associations that I mentioned before. But I guess the point I can make about this is that theme is intrinsically tied up with music and popular music itself. So building on this idea of music as a unmediated sort of emotional spiritual force, van Olviren also likens Pratchett's conception of magical music insult music to that of the Twentieth Century Composer Cal Heinz Stock Carson, who argued that music's vibrations move and feed the soul, enabling the listeners to feel wonderfully alive, full of energy, elevated, a divine and that the enchantment it brings forth is the result of the metaphysical connection with human soul, transcendental time and even with creation, which has been attributed to music throughout history, where we've sort of talked about this in reference to to fantasy and things earlier in the episode. But the interest thing to me is that the example Van Alfred uses to illustrate this connection actually comes from Dracula. She refers to the musical laughter of Dracula's Brides which first tempt Jonathan Harker when he goes to the castle at the start of the book, and Stoker writes that the brides whispered together and then they all three laughed such a silvery musical laugh, but has heard as though the sound never could have come through the softness of Human Lips. It was like the intolerable tingling sweetness of water glasses when played, when played on by a cunning hand. I don't know if this is quite magical music, but we do have a explicit description of what the voices of Dracula's bride sound like. Right, they sound like they sound like water glasses being being played. It's also interesting to me here that we have this idea of the bride songs never being able to come through the softness of Human Lips, which isn't saying that they bypass the lips. This is more of a lovecrafting thing, or this is pre lovecraft saying that the experience that was happening sort of contradicted the physical mechanics of what going on. The sounds they were making didn't seem like they who had come from human lips, which isn't to say they're bypassing the lips. It's to say that the brides aren't human. They have they have different lips in human lips, but there still to me reminds me of yeah, one are the characteristics of Pratchett's death is that his trademark voice bypasses the ears and appears in the head of the listener. Right. So death's voice is not musical or it's not physically musical, right. You could perhaps say that music only exists in the mind of the listener. Right. If the tree falls in the forest, is there a sound? If death's voice bypasses the ears and just go straight into the head of the listener and it's just mental synapses, is their music? Is there a sound or is there just the voice? So yeah, whether death actually makes a sound is debatable. In soul music, veil for a notes, fantasy also has a Penchon for magical instruments which enchant listeners just like Orpheus, as liar did. And then maybe I should have had this earlier when we were talking about the orphous stuff, because even already brought up some of this, including the famous retail...

...variation of the Pied Piper. Is the original fairy tale, but this has also been iterated on in famous fantasy versions such as Mozart's opera the magic flute, and also trying to me Abel's first novel, King Rat, which has the Pied Piper playing techno music in underground clubs. I don't remember that one too well, but I think it was a middling behavoral novel at best. And also, yes, of course, Pratchett's amazing Maurice, which we talked about earlier. I was also I was wondering about what Eden was saying about there being a Pied Piper figure in the Lord of the Rings. I don't know the Lord of the Rings and talking as well as Dan does, but I wondered if maybe the analogy there is borrow Mao right, who betrays the fellowship at the end of the first book. But he his trademark thing is he has the instrument of the Horn that he blows Um and he leads them into ambush or away from ambush by using his horn. So perhaps that is the analogy there. Another supposedly striking example of the pipe pipe variation of tical music that Vanal frond points to in their article is Lloyd Alexander's Book of three, which is the first book in the chronicles of Pidane, in which the bad fluid to flams magic heart produces gentle melodies all on its own and awakens a sweet melancholy and all those who listen to it. So yes, this book is the basis for Disney's nineteen eighty five film the black cauldron, which is named after the second book in the series, and the trilogy is also an example of a high fantasy bill ducstrument. So just another precursor that Pratchett is engaging with here through his parody and interpretation of magical music. And Van Al Fren also Liken Soul Music to lovecraft's story, the music of Eric Zan, which is about a musician who has a it's like a possessed violin. I think van Al Fren says that, like Buddy, the musician in this story has little influence on the melodies played by his instrument and he also becomes possessed by that music. But unlike body who wants to melt away into the sweet harmonic world his instrument creates, Eric Zon is terrified of his viol and the powers of the music at place. So yeah, that that is something that's sort of sets buddy and Pratchett's rendition of magical music apart is that wants it is revealed to be a corrupting force, but he's not really fighting it, he he wants to join it. So this again sort of relates to the Alphan Glamor that he is being possessed but also enticed. And I think this was what Eden was getting at in that your your owness is not being possessed. It is just being overwhelmed. Your desires are being changed, even if the actions aren't necessarily directed by the corrupting force, and I'll be interested to see how this stacks up against Pratchett's engagement with films and fame in moving pictures, because I think there it is more of a possessive, nefarious force. But yeah, the spiritual dimension of soul music is perhaps unsurprising given Pratchett's own spiritual relationship with music in the real world. In his two thousand and essay, the God moment, he describes the first time he heard the music of the sixteenth century composer Thomas tell us as a religious experience and, as I discussed in the roof of man episodes, he also repeatedly expressed a desire to be listening to Thomas Tellis on his ipod while dying. So in this I say, he attributes a like voice that supposedly spoke to him and reassured him that everything was going to be okay while he was waiting to talk about his Alzheimer's diagnosis on a talk show. Yes. So in this essay and attempt to explain that, he attributes the voice to the part of all of us that, in his case, caused him to stand in or the first time he heard tell us as Spem in Elliam, and the elation he felt on a walk one day when the light of the setting sun turned a plowed field into shocking pink. So here he's sort of explaining away any religious interpretation of his experience as just the magic of the mundane. Right. But here again, this semi spiritual quality is also connected with memory, with project including that, more accurately, it was the memory of a voice in his head, possibly his father's, that told him that everything was okay and things were happening as they should. So he's contesting that he sort of created this spiritual experience, of this spiritual experience was created in him by tapping into his memory, and that it is the same sort of sensation he felt when listening to tell us. His music. Mention of tell us was curiously absent from Pratt's list of his favorite songs that he gave during his appearance on the BBC for Radio Program Desert Island discs, which asked guests who select six songs to take with them if they were stranded on a desert island. I mean perhaps he only encountered tell us later. Right, that's easily explained, although it does point out that maybe tell us and this sort of spiritual interpretation of music wasn't an influence on soul music. Right. This interview has been given in nineteen. This is a few US after, but he's still probably referring to the kinds of things he had been listening to in the mid nineties. Nevertheless, protest described Mozart's Ariata Vok Sapota, and I'm sure I've said that horribly,...

...but he refers to that piece from Mozart, six up er out the manager Figura, in similar terms, saying I just burst out laughing when I first heard it. It just sounded so right. I have no musical vocabulary to describe why I lack things. It's just you get that white hot line searing across your brain and you know you are listening to genius. This is that unmediated experience we were talking about our practice. Other picks during that interview included Meatloaf spat out of hell, which provides the cover and, through Starman, perhaps the thematical inspiration for salt music. Summer from the Italian composer Viveldi's four seasons concerto from I think, around seventeen eighteen. Project also chose Great Southern land by the Australian Rock Band Ice House to represent his love of Australia that he talks about in that interview and yet which we'll get back to when we get to the last continent. And his last pick was Bernard Miles race for the original stakes, which is a version of Wagner's right of the velkyries with horse racing comments put over the top of it, which project calls one of the ancestors of discworld. Sorry, somewhat musical, comedic influence on discord itself. There perhaps, then, an originary musical force, if you want to be really loose about it. And News Favorite Song of the bunch was British folk rock band steel eye spans version of Thomas the Roma. This is the story about the boy who gets taken away by the Elf Queen that we talked about in the Lords and ladies episodes, and we'll talk about a lot more, I'm sure, when we get to the B freemen. The book he chose to take with him to the Desert Island was an imaginary book called Edible Plants of the South Seas. So you could possibly retrieve that through l space, although he could also they use l space to escape the island, although he might not want to, given that for his one luxury item that guests get to choose in the program he chose the entire Chrysler building, which he admits is somewhat cheating. So that brings me to the end of the first part on soul music. On as I said, I think this is going to be another three part episode, first one having been on, which is abroad, which is also the third in the witch's series. So whether there's something about third books or this is just a product of the books getting longer as they go, but yeah, for a book that sort of has a reputation as a funny but fairly surface level engagement with rock music, I have found that there is a surprising amount of depth to sold music. All Right, we talked about office a lot more than I thought we were going to during this episode and I think other than just references, I think there is a real engagement, whether that is deliberate or just a product of projects reading of everything. But with the obvious myth and some of the things it entails. So yes, this was the first part on magical music. The second part will be on a Marxist or cultural materialist analysis of some elements of the plot to do with the musicians old and things. I'm going to see if I could get eaten back for that episode because that's the kind of thing I think he thinks and talks about and that'd be interested to hear what he says. And then, yeah, a final third part looking at Susan's plot, which will provide a nice leading I think, to hog father where she plays a more prominent and an active role. So those will come out as I go. I mean I've got most of those written, but I've also started a new job and it takes time and energy to record an edit these. But yeah, I'm excited to get into it and I'm surprised at just how much I was able to get out of soul music when he looked into it a bit deeper. So yeah, thanks for listening and thanks again to Eten for coming on here and I think he had a lot of interesting things to say. And Yeah, I'll try and get him back for the next part if he's interested, but for now I will let one Stanley Bert Isisand sum up everything we've been through today. Ye, out, riding bold to rocking, yeah, yeah, right, soon ring and rocking by. I know life sometimes can get time and I know life sometimes can be a tram. But, pople, you have been given a game. We haven't given a road, and that roads name is wrecking right, yea and Wick Lea,.

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